What Senior Leaders Really Look For in Interviews

What does it actually take to build a successful career in marketing, and what do most students learn too late?

In this episode of The Career Starter Show, Sarah-Jane Martin (Managing Partner, Chief Talent Officer and Associate General Counsel at Sprott Inc) shares the lessons she learned the hard way. 

 S.J. (Sarah-Jane) talks about how her thinking about creativity, data, and decision-making evolved, what she wishes she’d known earlier in her career, and where students commonly misjudge what employers value.

We also dig into interview advice for early-career candidates, including how to demonstrate judgment, curiosity, and business thinking (not just skills), and how to stand out without trying to sound “perfect.” 

If you’re preparing for marketing, business, or strategy roles, this episode will help you think like a hiring manager.

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Transcript

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So S.J. let's jump right in. So knowing what you know now, if you were starting today no connections in the industry, what are the main things that you would be doing. Well maybe I can take a step back first and just give you a little bit about my background and where I come from, because I come from a situation where I really had no connections to Bay Street. You know, frankly, I didn't even know what Bay Street was growing up. None of my family worked on Bay Street. I was from a small little town outside of Ottawa. It just wasn't something that was really on my radar growing up until I got into law school. So my career path is I'm a lawyer by trade. I decided to go to Queens Law and really didn't know any lawyers and just thought it was like the next big sort of golden ring challenge that I could potentially face and work and work through that and got to know more about Bay Street in Toronto and that through my friends and my connections that I had while I was at law school, I was fortunate enough to get a job at McCarthy Tetrault and that was really through, I think, more, you know, keeping my head down, getting good grades and doing those types of things. And I think when I look back on it now, you know, it could have been a heck of a lot easier had I been focused on also making some meaningful connections within the industry, beyond the academics. Right. So being strong academically, getting good grades, doing all the things that you need to do in school to get a good job is obviously going to, you know, serve you well in your job and finding a career that you want. But it's also something that I think can be made a lot more easier and frankly, can be done with your eyes wide open if you make those meaningful connections with people that are in the industry and do your research to really understand where opportunities lie for you, potentially, well, that's great and a really good insight. It's interesting that the academic horsepower, the results, the work that managed to serve you well, but the amplification of that effect with networking, with making some close relationship might even push things further. So something important to remember. I look back on it now and I'm like, I could have been it could have been easier, right? You know, if I had taken more time to leverage career services to reach out to alumni that were the in the industry, to recognize that there was nothing wrong with saying, I don't know anything about this, I have no exposure. I would actually make the argument that people on Bay Street are even more excited to talk to somebody that doesn't understand. Bay Street hasn't been here, doesn't know the industry, and is looking for a way in and is hungry for it because I think that shows a lot of get up and go, if you will. And so there's a lot of people here that are really excited about having those conversations. And as much as you think that we get asked about it all the time, we don't. And so when we do, it's quite nice to be able to give some insights, which is super surprising because I think the assumption is, oh my God, these people are like inundated and they don't want to talk to me. But that's generally not the case. I’d say it's not the case. I mean, I do get my fair number of cold call outreach. And I think the thing that that works is when people sort of personalize it in terms of what they reach out to me about, they've done their research a little bit. But then they asked the question. They asked a question that they're really interested in, like, you know, how did you get here or how did you manage? So I mentioned that I'm a lawyer by trade, but now I'm the Chief Talent Officer of Sprott, and that is a bit of an unusual career path. There's not a ton of lawyers that are in HR there are some for sure, but people sort of saying, how did how did you get here? You know, and I love to talk about that. I'm like, this is how I got here. And it's by keeping my eyes open and taking all these opportunities and doing all of these things. That then makes me want to have that conversation and share that insight. And I think it's why it's so important for people to reach out to people, because not, so many people. You're not the only one I've had this conversation with who've had unusual routes and paths to their career. So one understanding just as a starting point, there's no not only one way to do it, but number two, there might be things that you never even thought of that you're like, oh, actually, I could approach it this way. That'd be very valuable. And that's why these conversations are valuable. But one of the things you mentioned sort of jumped out at me. When you think about the people who reach out to you and you're like, let's do it. Love to chat with you. Hope I didn’t make too much noise there. Love to chat with you. What distinguishes them from the ones you're like, come on. Really? Or, you know, I just don't have the bandwidth for this. I think it's just being taking a personalized approach, like mentioning something that, you know, why are you reaching out to me, you know, oh, I saw you speak on, on the, you know, Career Starter Podcast, or I saw you at a conference or I met you at this event, or Sprott did this really interesting. You know, we raised this really interesting fund and we want to talk to you about that, something that indicates that you have a connection either to the workplace that I'm at, the role that I'm in, and me personally is obviously going to me, make me feel like I want to reach out. I mean, it's kind of it's as good as you get, as good as you get. Right? And so if you're going to take the time, if you want someone to take the time, sorry to respond to you and to give you some meaningful insight, then you need to take the time to actually make the request and making a meaningful request. I also think putting a specific question or a thing that you want to chat about, and making it somewhat time limited and being respectful the other person's time is also helpful. Sort of a generalized, you know, hey, I just said, like, I want to talk about how I got here, but a generalized, hey, how did you get where you are is probably not the easiest question for me to answer in a in a quick email, but saying, hey, you know, S.J. like, what did you do your undergrad? Did you have any tips for what I should take? Because I really want to end up here. I might give you some insight there because it's a very specific question and it starts the conversation, right? Yeah. So I think that that is part of what is meaningful. So S.J. one of the things you said there, I thought was super interesting, I just want to put a little bit more emphasis and focus on that. Is that if you expect me to give up or someone to give up some of their time for you, you should put the effort in and give up some of your time to do some research on them and show that you're actually interested. I think that's a really I don't think I've heard encapsulated quite that way, but it's a great way to think about it. You give what you get. Absolutely true in so many things in life, right? It is true in so many things in life. That's a very good point. And I know we're not there yet, but maybe I can segue into interviewing because more often than not, we always ask the question, do you have any questions for us, Oh yeah! Or how do you why do you want to work at Sprott? Like if I'm talking about our organization and it actually astounds me the times that I don't get a good answer to that question, where they haven't done the research about our organization and it's all there. It's all on the website. Take some time and and do your research. Because it means something we want to quid pro quo, right? Let's do it. So S.J. that triggers a thought for me in terms of interviewing. And there's a point in every interview where we ask, do you have any questions for me? Curious for your reaction. I'm not going to give you anything else. I suspect I know where you're going to go. So I think the worst thing that can happen is when the person says no, you know, you always need to come to an interview prepared with questions. I want to see curiosity. I want to know that the candidate is also interviewing us as an organization. And I think that the way the best way to show that is obviously to show some thoughtful questions. You know, it shouldn't be a question like, well, how much does this pay or something like that? You want to ask something around the culture and the fit and what they're looking for. Maybe some deeper insights into a question that was raised earlier in the interview that you want to understand a bit behind it, or what the expectation is around a role, those types of things to show that there's a really thoughtful process going on with the candidate. We're often interviewing people that are sort of five plus years into their career. And so again, I really want to make sure that the person that's coming to our organization is being very mindful about joining us. And they're not just looking for a job, they're looking for a career, and they're looking for a career at our organization because they feel our organization can also add something to their trajectory, as well as we feel that they can add to our company's trajectory. I think that's super important. And I've talked in the past and it goes to a different interview question, and we'll touch on in just a second. But there's just this idea of, you know, why do you want to work here? It's like, well, I'm looking for somewhere to exchange my time for money is just it may be true, but it's not a very good true. Right. And so, you know, when you think about that question, that response, can you sort of I think I gave the bad version of that answer. When you think about the things that you think people should be emphasizing or should be thinking about when they're answering that question, I'd love to get your take. Yeah, it's interesting. I would say that it's very role specific sometimes in terms of what they're looking for. Right. If I've got a student that's looking for an internship position, my expectation is they're going to say something along the lines of, you know, because I want to grow, I want to have exposure, I want to try new things. I want to figure out where I fit. I mean, if I'm interviewing somebody that's coming in for an internship position and they act like they already know all the things and where they're going to go, and they might or they might think they do, then that gives me a bit more pause, right? Whereas I want to see more certainty from someone that's perhaps more senior in their career that really does actually know, because they've been exploring all the different potential avenues that they could have gone with their education, their interests, and they know they're like, this is what I want. So, you know, I think, like I said, it just it depends on on where, where they're at. But I think, again, being frankly honest about it and what you want, because if you're not authentic and you don't say what you're really looking for in an opportunity, then you might not get the right opportunity or you might end up in the wrong spot. And also, I mean, like I said, it's a two way relationship. So I'm very mindful about what the other person is trying to get out of the opportunity as well, so that we can make sure that we're meeting that expectation because we want to retain and we want engaged, happy employees. Right. And I think that's the thing that's often underappreciated is really the people you often really want are also the ones who are interviewing you. They're asking themselves, is this the right place for me? Because just like you don't want someone who ends up there who is going to be unhappy, they shouldn't want to go end up being somewhere where they're unhappy. Right. And that's why I'm always, mystified when, you know, you ask the question of, you know, do have any questions for us and not really, you know, what do you want to work here, you know? Well, I'm really excited about the industry. And it's like, well, that makes me feel warm and fuzzy. Yeah, yeah. I don't mean to make light of it because like some people, it's not like they just don't know where they don't think of it. But that's part of why we do these conversations is so people understand this and hear about a way to distinguish themselves and help themselves stand out. So that's great. S.J. I want to go back for just a second. What are the things that, if anything, kind of surprised you when you got into the industry relative to what you were expecting? Just not having come from a background where, you know, a family of like doctors and lawyers or whatever who are super familiar with this, anything that surprised you or anything that you thought was going to be the case, which proved not to be the case? That's interesting question. My background and my family's background was much more sort of blue collar 9 to 5 you clocking you clock out kind of jobs and I don't think I quite appreciated. And this might be very naive on my part, but I don't think I quite appreciated the difference between that and then having a career in a more sort of academic or service oriented field around like finance, law, those types of things where there aren't really I mean, there are hours that you're working in, but you kind of don't turn it off the same way. Right. And I don't think I quite appreciated that aspect of it. I knew was going to be a lot of hard work. I don't think I quite appreciated how many hours of work that it was going to be. I mean, I was working around the clock when I was a baby lawyer, as I like to call myself back then. And I think I needed to do that because I think that's how you get the experience and you build up the sort of muscle you need in terms of being successful later on and good work ethic and all of these things. But yeah, I mean, I think that would be it. I think the other thing, too, is the importance of the social connections. Like, I, I knew that intellectually I'd been told networking was important, but it wasn't something that was modeled for me. It wasn't something that I saw growing up that was of extreme importance. I mean, I can remember my mom saying, it's not what you know, it's who you know. And that is true, right? To a certain extent. But I think that it's even more important in industries like ours, where there's a lot of people at different firms and organizations working together, there's people that are, you know, crossing the street and moving over to different organizations. And so your reputation and how you network and all of those types of things is critically important, as we touched upon a few times. And I think that I just I understood the importance, but I didn't quite understand how important that was. S.J. anything that you would add or think about with respect to, you know, again, having someone who's grown up with people in the industry or not, anything you would add there. Yeah. I mean, I think I would say it's not just about family connections. Family connections are important, connections that you have, the industry introductions that can be made obviously are incredibly important. I think the reality, though, of someone who grows up familiar with those careers versus someone who's not the someone who doesn't is going to have a bit of catching up to do. And I think they just need to keep their eyes really open to what's going on around them. And when I think about how did I overcome some of this, it was all through really through observation and osmosis, like just trying to drink it all in and trying to change some of my behaviors, resulting on what I was seeing, but also being like, true to who I am as a person, because if I wasn't true to who I was, I wasn't authentic in the way that I approach things. Then it wasn't going to work for me, and I wouldn't be able to keep doing it for a long time. So, you know, I think about somebody who's got parents or family or friends, whatever in the industry. They can look at those individuals to understand, you know, language norms, acronyms and these some of the acronyms that we come out with expectations in those fields, which is kind of getting to my earlier point around, you know, not really understanding the hours in the context of like always being on and being accessible. Confidence. I think, you know, children of professionals that are in these industries tend to be a little bit more confident, confident in their networking, their network literacy, how to approach etiquette in terms of if you go to a fancy dinner, I can remember a time when I was interviewing McCarthys and they took me to a nice lunch, as the lawyers do, and they're interviewing and they're asking you questions, and I'm like, trying to eat the piece of bread. And I get an olive stuck in my mouth and I'm like, oh my goodness. And the person's still talking to me, and I'm thinking about how I handle that, in which fork. And anyway, so it all worked out. I got a job there. So, you know, but it's just stuff like that that might seem second nature to a lot of people. And I raised this because I think it all can be overcome. Like, I think that that those things, those social things can be really, really intimidating when you're first starting out. And so I want to raise it because I think it can be overcome through observation, through trying things, asking questions, finding a confidant to be like, I don't understand this. And now we have the internet too. You can look up a ton of stuff, right? And it depends on where you go. Like some places offer really great training too for that, that type of work, like some of the bigger organizations around, you know how to engage with clients and be professional about it and how to be responsive. In an email in a way that is courteous, polite, and gets to the point. And all of these kinds of things, I that that's that's such an interesting point to right in that having before you kind of needed someone who could give you some of these answers. Now with it, LLMs and chat bots, you can get most of these answers yourself, and maybe there's a little bit that sort of like social cultural norms you have to observe or watch for or model or ask someone about. But, you know, it's interesting. You can pick up a lot of this stuff on your own, You just have to you just have to decide you're going to and you have to recognize that you might benefit from it. You have to be self-aware. Yeah. You have to recognize where you might have deficits and where you have strengths. Yeah. Right. And I think when you have that self-awareness and you're able to do the research to ask the right questions and adapt. But I do want to emphasize, I think it's really important. I know it's a buzzword to talk about sort of, you know, your belonging and being your authentic self. But I think that's very valid. And you need to be your authentic self. So you have to figure out the balance between those two things, not talking about faking it and being somebody different, but figuring out how to sort of just tweak your behavior here and there to be able to put yourself out and put your best foot forward in an environment that perhaps you weren't entirely comfortable in to begin with. Yeah. And then the more you do it, the more comfortable you get and the more it becomes normal. I do think it's interesting, too, that, I have a general rule that I don't make a full time hire without having had a meal with the person. Yeah. And the reason is, is that to your point, not necessarily because I want to know, do they know the right fork to use? But I find that the combination of us having a discussion, them eating, everything going on, it screens out. People who like you can't. You can only fake so much. Like if you’re, I have a heuristic that if you're rude or mean or demeaning to people who you think can't hurt you, that's a huge character problem. And like a total red flag for me. So if someone is in, it's got so much going on and they just are like rude to the waiter, Like, that to me is like, okay, I'm going to be aware of that. Now, I also paid a lot of attention to how they treat, our receptionist when they come in. And, because I do think that's an important character sign. I'm smiling because this is one of the things that I wanted to raise with you, that I think something that I really pay attention to now that I didn't always do at the beginning is that in between the in between interviews sort of behavior, that I like to call it, which is exactly that, like, I have actually had a really great interview, and then I found out the person was really rude to the receptionist when they came in, and I'm like, they're off the list. You're done, you know, or being at a at a restaurant and having someone be rude to the waiter or, you know, being terse with someone that they feel is junior and maybe not important, you know, and I used to see it in the law firm. I can remember there were like these junior lawyers and they would treat the lawyers that were more junior to them not very well than the senior lawyer it’s like they were, you know, they knew exactly what to say. But I'll tell you, these things kind of come out eventually. Right? So yeah. And it goes back, I think, to what you said with respect to your network, it's all part of your brand. Right. And if your brand is someone who is respectful and playing and kind, everybody, that's a great reputation to have. But it's a small street and is you know, it's it's one of those things I don't know if it's Buffet, who used to say, but something like trust is earned and that reputation is earned over a long time and can be lost very, very swiftly. And so it's definitely something to pay attention to. Any other I mean, now that we're on a sort of the topic of, interviews, anything that jumps out at you in terms of getting to that interview stage. So you're looking at a resume, things that jump out to you as I'm really intrigued, this intrigues me about this person. This is a proxy for something I think is really positive. You know, I think that all resumes should have some sort of creative interview hook. Right. And I'll talk a little bit more about the substantive stuff, but I can tell you that the things that stick out in your head are the interesting thing that somebody puts around an interest or some interesting backstory that they have or a job that they've had that maybe isn't translatable. One story I always think about was, and again, not to keep harping on the law stuff, but when I was in law school, we would do these things once we'd already gotten our articling job. We would help the, you know, younger students prepare for their interviews. And this young lady I was working with had a resume and she we just started chatting about her resume. And then I asked her some stuff about her background. And then she mentioned something about how she used to teach Eugene Levy tennis. And I'm like, oh, that's really cool. And so then we like, digress into this whole conversation about her teaching Eugene Levy tennis and how that worked and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it wasn't on her resume. We just got to this conversation naturally. So I was like, you put that on my resume. And she came back to me afterwards and she was like, do you know that That was the number one question I got across the board and I'm like, yeah, because you're talking to regular people and they're interested. They just want to know and they'll remember you and they'll still talk about all the substantive stuff, but then you're going to stick out a little bit. So finding that like interesting story that you might not think has something to do with it, like, and putting it in there and whether it's an interest or like, you got to figure out what the right place to put it in your resume is. But I think having a hook where you can have fun is, is a good thing. If you can do it. Thanks a great point. We had a, an intern. We ended up hiring she a couple of years ago who was really, really good and he, along with many other candidates, met the criteria we were looking for and probably would have been on the interview list and on his interests. He said He was a stand up comedian. Yeah. And I was like, really? That's so interesting. And I know I was just doing a webinar a few days ago, and I was sort of showing people LinkedIn pages and what kind of some things that work, some things are don't. And there's one, one student who is really into sports. He's a FIFA Agent. And I'm like, if that's what it sounds like. Yeah. And he meets the other stuff I’m definitely bring this guy in for an interview because I'm very curious about that. Yeah. Right. And so it's funny, just while we’re on that topic. One of the things that I, I think is super helpful and strategic in an interview is dropping little lines in the water that the interviewers will bite on. You know, to your point, if if the Eugene Levy thing wasn't obvious from the the resume in the interviews, you know, as part of the tell me about yourself, you know, part of is you know what I ended up doing? I'm really into tennis. I ended up coaching Eugene Levy, believe it or not. But we can talk about that later. And then you continue on and they're like, no, no, no. Let's go back to that Eugene Levy thing. I want to hear that. Yeah. So we're interviewing, right? You're interviewing one person after another after another, and interviewing is, you know, it's interesting, but it can also be a bit repetitive because you're asking if you're good. Interviewer. You're asking the same questions over and over again in the same order. And you know, you're trying to flesh things out and make sure that you're doing a good comparator sort of between your different candidates. And so if you can do something like that, that kind of makes it stand out, makes the person kind of, you know, perk up a little bit and, and that's great. It goes kind of also back to the restaurant thing, you know, I agree with you about it's a really great way to interview people because it forces people to multitask as well. So it can take them off their game because we've all interviewed people that are, you know, professional interviewers, but not very good at the job. And I think it's a good way to, to figure that out. But it's also about conversation. And I think a lot of interviews that have gone very well, when I think back of the difference between ones that are gone very well and ones that haven't gone as well, where the qualifications and the experience are somewhat similar, it's the person's ability to get through the interview as a conversation, as opposed to and a back and forth and like how the ebb and flow, as opposed to ask one question and then just go, okay, I'm going to answer it and I'm going to be quiet. Right? It's an art you have to figure out, you know, when not to ramble and when to actually and answer the question versus, you know, actually having a conversation. But I think the lunch or the meal interview helps with that too a little bit. Can that person carry that on. Is it somebody I want to have lunch with? Yeah. And I think there's a big element to of you like do interesting things, have interesting things to talk about. And if you have interesting things to talk about, there's a reasonable chance you can have an interesting conversation in an interview. And it's the I found the times where it's been like a tennis match back and forth, where question and answer question and answer question answer, you know, yes, they're answering the questions, but it's not a conversation. There's no richness to it. We're not going any deeper so that I think those are the interviews. that I think about the ones that stand out. The interesting thing to think about which I’m curious for your take on is: a not so great interviewer. Interviewer, not interviewee could end up all the way, all the way through. Focused on the interesting, fun stuff. And as a as a candidate, you got to make sure that you're getting the substance in there to 100%. You need to bring it back to the job at some point. Right? Right. Engage in that. You don't want to shut an interviewer down if they're wanting to talk about something, but you have to think about how do you bring that back to what it is that you want to do. So I don't know, not maybe the most interesting example, but when I was in between undergrad and law school, I waitressed for a year and I was like, oh, I don't have any experience. Nobody's going to want to interview me for the law jobs. Once I started and everybody was asking about my service industry, I realized and I started to talk about this and I put it on my resume. I was very active. I was like, oh yeah, I'm going into a service industry, right? So making that connection and and talking about certain challenges that I might have faced in, you know, as a waitress and then segue into something that I felt translated into the job that I was looking for. It worked well, and I didn't think that that would work well. I thought that I didn't have the right background, and I think that goes for lots of things. Like I was talking to someone that wanted to get back into the industry after being out raising kids for a number of years, and I'm like, oh my goodness. Like all the things as a mother that you have skill sets lend themselves very well to is like an Executive EA kind of position, entry level. And I'm like, if you can run your whole family's lives, like you can figure this out, right? So it’s just about figuring out how to translate that. Super important! It is. I think it's super important because many people do themselves a disservice by not recognizing all of what they bring. And so they ended up potentially not getting jobs they could have gotten if they'd really thought through what is really important in this job and what are what do I have in my background that does translate to that? That's right. On that topic, when you think about, you know, you mentioned that you generally will hire people five plus years out of school for the roles that you guys tend to hire for. To the extent this makes sense, it might not make sense, but I often think there are usually 2 to 4 characteristics of someone who, when you think about the real stars in your organization, the people you think of, like that person's going places. What are the 2 to 4 characteristics that come to mind? Can I sum it up as I think more of an overarching mindset? Sure is. The superstars are the ones that have an overarching entrepreneurial sort of spirit and mindset in the way that they approach things. And, you know, when you come work for us, obviously you're you're working for Sprott. You're not an entrepreneur in the traditional sense of creating your own business, but having a mindset of being. So what I mean by that curious and focused on innovation, asking why? Like why not in a pejorative sense of why are you asking me to do this? But asking yourself, why am I doing this task? Like, what is it about this? What is the main objective? And being smart about it because you know, a curious person will upskill themselves and also will compound their knowledge. So that's a one, you know, marker of it. And how else would I describe this? I think having a really good judgment knowing like how to use your critical thinking skills. So analyzing information, weighing trade offs, those types of things so that you can make an educated decision and make a calculated risk. So not like risk without abandon but like showing some good judgment in that sense. And then I think grit. Right. Like I feel like all these things kind of come in to being an entrepreneurial person. So being determined and knowing how to push through challenges and adapt yourself. And so I think all of that's kind of encapsulated in the idea of being an entrepreneur, entrepreneurial type person not willing to rest on your laurels. Oh, I got here now. I'm smart. I don't need to do anymore. It’s like no, everyone I know at this organization and lots of other organizations that are successful are consistently pushing themselves every day, right, to do something new, to try something, to learn more, to grow, all learning AI you know, all the things. So I think having all of that can really can really help. And that's what really makes those those people stand out, whether it's the intern or it's, you know, all the way up to someone that's going to be a C-suite executive. So it's interesting you, you describe that. It reminds me a little bit, there's this guy who I crossed paths where I read about him on X called. His name is George Mack, and he's really pushed and pioneered. I would say to some degree, this concept of being high agency and high agency is essentially it's hard to describe but there's three sort of key characteristics that stand out. Number one is a clarity of thinking to be able to ultimately judgment form and find the right answer, a bias for action where it's not just spinning your wheels for hours and days and weeks and months thinking about it, but actually doing things, moving forward, learning, getting feedback and moving forward. And then there's this mild or hopefully mild concept of disagreeableness where you're you're not just saying, well, this is how everyone does it, right? So that's how we should do it, isn't it? And so I love the way he's encapsulated it as the way to figure out what high agency means is think about if you were ever in like pick your most, the most horrible country in the world, and you got stuck in prison there. You get one phone call, who is the one person you would call that you would think has the best chance of getting you out? You may love your mom, but it might not be your mom who you’d call! That person is the highest agency person you know, and the characteristics of them are what makes high agency. That's really interesting way to think about it. Yeah. And it it maps a lot to what you were describing too. you know, and I think you can you can learn those behaviors. I think you can practice those behaviors to a certain extent. It's not something that we're going to be providing to our employees. Right. Like we can teach them the substantive skills. We can work with them about industry and all of these things. But like who you are at your core, your intellectual curiosity, your grit, your agency, all of these things, that's that's what we want to see. Because that's what's going to compound over time and make a person a superstar at least in my opionion. I think, no I agree with you. I think I think it maps to what you said earlier too, about, the modeling aspect. Right? If you're in an environment where people are like that, there's almost like social pressure to be like that. And so that that sort of can help you level up yourself as well. So interesting. We had chatted beforehand about a culture add and I think this segues nicely into that, which is, you know, if you're somebody who can figure out how to respectfully challenge the norm, the standard quo, and figure out how to elevate it and how to improve a process, then you're not a culture fit. You're a culture add. And that's the best possible thing that we can find. Right. And so your point about sort of figuring out how to be disagreeable, I think is a very good one. And the gentleman I forgot. Yeah. George Mack, thank you. I’d like to claim credit, but, but I think it's a really it's a really valid one. And it's an art, right? Because we've seen the people that come in and are disagreeable in a way that gets people's backs up and they're not able to get to the endpoint. Right. If we can figure out how to massage that. Yeah. You touched on this a little bit. I'm curious if there's any further thoughts you'd have when someone gets to the interview stage. What are the things you have found to be effective in separating the ones who are exactly who you want to have, and the ones who kind of sound like it? So, I mean, I think that we will go through I mean, there's the interview at lunch and all of these types of things. We tend to go through multiple interview stages. And I find that that tends to start to separate that out a little bit. We also will sometimes do substantive testing. And we'll see sometimes personality testing, which I find can be really helpful, when you're coming in. I don’t think that's exactly the answer that you're looking for, you know, in terms of trying to suss things out, I think also getting a little bit deeper into questions, asking pushing a little bit more on background around, you know, what is this on your resume? What does this tell me a little bit more about this. And, you know, you can kind of get to a point where you understand that there's some surface level knowledge around something, and that the person's not able to go deeper is another way to do it. I wouldn't say that I have a specific way. I think it's just that, you know, as an organization, we kind of keep going through the interview process, and if we see something that's not quite right, we kind of just dig in a little bit more to to figure it out. It's that follow up then. So I think part of what I'm hearing you talk about is the follow up questions, the further depth, the. Yes. Tell me more about that. Yes. I mean, there's nothing worse than actually interviewing somebody and saying, you know, hey, tell me about this experience on your resume. And they don't have a story and they can't really speak to it, or they don't have an example of how they've, I don't know, improve productivity on x, y, z that they've claimed on their resume. Right. You need to have not just one point. For every point on your resume. You have to multiple points for every point on your resume. You need to know how to go. So deep and that that's why you need to be honest. Yeah. Another thing that I could segue to, which is interesting, and I've seen it more. And so I would like to put this warning out. There's AI, AI is so incredibly helpful. And, you know, it's a great tool and we're all going to use it like our assistant. And eventually it will help us work smarter and better. It already is. But you can't just use it and then not do your homework We get resumes sometimes and we'll get 6 or 7 resumes and they're almost all be identical. And that in terms of the qualifications, skills, the way that they've worded the experiences. And what's difficult about that is some of those candidates probably don't have any of that experience, and they've got AI writing their resume and they're sending it in. And then there might be some candidates that actually do have good experience and are using AI to write their resume using buzzwords, thinking that it's sort of matching the job description, all of these things and, you know what? I'm going to toss all of them. Like I'm not going to interview them because it's very clear to me that they didn't write their resume. I've got multiples that are like that. I can't discern who actually might have the qualifications and who does not. And I do think that there is. I've seen it where people are using AI for these things and not recognizing that we're going to spot that it's AI on the other side. Long Dash on ChatGPT or, you know, copying and pasting from AI. That's the worst, getting an email, thanking me for an interview. But I'm like, you didn't write this. Thank you for your interview at your company. And then it's like, you know, in a weird format. And I'm like, you know, so like, use the tool, but make sure that you're using it in a way that is actually reflective of you. Right? And not doing the work for you. Because I think and there's also technology obviously that's spotting it too. But. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's just I haven't crossed paths yet with too much in the way of AI generated resumes. Well, we're in the midst of interviewing or doing a search for interns right now, so I guess we'll see. Yeah, but you know, on the topic of AI, I'm always curious, especially where we are today. Do you are you guys starting to have expectations that incoming candidates need to have some AI skills? Yes, yes. Can you tell me more about that? Yeah. I mean, we're we're early still on our journey into AI and we're sort of treading carefully, as I think a lot of organizations are doing. But there is a definite recognition that this is the way of the future in terms of a skill and a tool that's going to help us work better going forward. I don't think it's going to replace anybody anytime soon, but it is going just like outlook helps me work better. Microsoft Word this is just another tool. And so as much as I would expect to see Microsoft products listed out on a resume as skills and that you know someone's good at Excel, now we're wanting to see that yes, they have some, whether it's copilot or, you know, ChatGPT or whatever. It is, some familiarity and comfort. We're not expecting our candidates to come in as experts in AI because I don't think, frankly, we're there yet generally in society. But we are wanting to seek curiosity, and we're wanting to see that there's at least a base level understanding of how to use the tool. It's a little bit of a it's so funny, you said, because it is a little bit of a proxy for curiosity, isn't it? It is. It's really interesting. And who wants to pick it up and run with it and play with it and learn more about it? And we see it in this organization. You see it everywhere. I think know who's who's really interested in what it can do, and is willing to embrace it and not be scared by it. Right? I mean, I think you hit something else important too, is that it's not necessarily that people are going to be replaced by AI, but at some point, people who refuse to use AI or are not good at it, yes, are going to be replaced by the people who are good at it because they're going to be multiple or substantially more efficient multiple times, but they'll be a lot more efficient. They'll do more work. I think multiple times it'd be like saying, you know, I don't use the internet. Do you want to still hire me? And I'm like, no, sorry, you know, so and I think but but it's again, like knowing how to use the tool. Right. Yeah. When do you use it, how to use it. You know, it can't do everything for you. You need to double check triple check the responses that you get. But can it help you improve your writing? Sure. Use it to help you use it to figure out answers to things that you're wondering about, right? For sure. Yeah, and it can speed things up. One of the arguments I've made in the past, curious how it lands with you, is that organizations are not only looking to their entry level or entry level in early hires to show the curiosity, if you will, to learn AI. But to some degree to show everyone else how to use AI in the same way as the Instagram generation who came in, at least sort of. When I think about investing, there was a generation who had never used Instagram by and large there were exceptions, and then suddenly the next generation, next wave of people all use Instagram and they educated the rest of us on, hey no, no, this is a real thing. This is how I use it. I'm curious if you think of AI somewhat similarly. Yeah, all our interns this summer. I was just thinking back to a lunch and learn we did because we had asked our interns I wasn't really lunch and learn. We asked for interns. To all do a presentation by the end of their internship. Just because we want them to hone their presentation skills. And one of the groups, you know, touched on artificial intelligence and the use of artificial intelligence and the depth of knowledge that these kids have in comparison, is astounding. And I was surprised to learn how many university courses are now utilizing AI. One of our young interns was telling me that in her first year course, for every single piece of research that they did had to be done through AI. Like there's they're actually like forcing some of the tools like it's it's so it is something that I'm very mindful of that it's a skill that can be brought in by the younger generation that's a little less daunted. So that's change management, right? It's changing how we work. And if you've worked like I've worked a certain way for so long and with Outlook as an example, and then we have Teams and I'm like, oh, it's going to change the way that I get my information and how I store my list and how I figure that out. And then AI like, oh, wait, I wrote this. Maybe if I plug it into that, it'll make it sound like it's just enough that you have to shift. Change management. A little harder for us older people. Change management is a really good way to think about it. Actually, I hadn't really thought about it necessarily. Maybe I'm the only one who hasn't thought of that way, but I think it's a really interesting way to think about it. Right? Because that is what's happening, right? It's we're modifying the way we work and, yeah. Okay. So our audience, for our audience, they need to be making sure they're, you know, up the curve and curious and aggressively learning. AI. Oh my goodness. You know, if I'm hiring someone and I have a student that I feel can come in and actually like teach me something as well. Like I want to teach students listen when they come in. Our main objective is giving them a really great work experience and figuring out who they want to be and what type of career they want to chase, and then opening their eyes to different possibilities. But if they can teach me something as well and like, help me move the needle and demonstrate that on a resume, that's huge, right? Yeah. And it also shows the intellectual curiosity, as you mentioned. Yeah. And it's it's interesting. So I noticed these recurring themes continue to come up. Let's think about now into sort of career acceleration and, becoming going from good to great and helping your career along are there any habits you noticed or you we talked a little bit about characteristics earlier. Any sort of habits you've noticed that really compound for people that, or for you that you found that have really helped you over time? That's really interesting question. You know, I think there's a few things that, that can be done. Closing the loop every single time. And I mean, so if I send a request or your manager sends a request to a student says, hey, can you do XYZ? a request to a student says, hey, can you do XYZ? Sending a quick note saying, got it to the point where you get to a point where the person understands, okay, if I send this person something and I need them to do it, they've gotten it, they're going to actually do it. You got to build that sort of confidence. You know, asking for specific feedback I think is really important too. Not, hey, any feedback for me on this, but it's, you know, how could I sharpen my memo? Is there a way that I can, you know, change this to help you get to the conclusion a little faster, those types of things, and then executing it right away on your next product? I worked with a student this summer and and what I noticed every time she would give me something she was incorporating something that I had told her on the last product. And I really noticed it, and I and it's stuck out to me because I was like, oh. And the growth was exponential as a result, right? It wasn't waiting till the end of the internship to ask for feedback It was always asking for micro pieces of feedback, right? Which is easier for the manager to also give. It’s hardest, As much as you don't like getting feedback like it's hard to do right both sides, so making it easier. Attention to detail. It's a simple one, but man, it trips people up. And so rereading your work and figuring out what works for you to ensure I used to print my emails before I'd send them when I was like junior, and I would then find stuff because I found if I didn't write handwriting. I mean, I don't do that anymore because I've kind of gotten better at it. Although it's amazing. You sometimes you go back and read something, you're like, oh, I just thought of that word. I didn't write it. Those kinds of things, you know, building relationships in a micro way. So like, you know, and all these things I'm telling you are really small things because I think they compound over time. Right. And you need to do the small little habits because that'll make you into a superstar. And that will excel you. So before I finish that thought, I'm kind of jumping all over the place. But like the tiny relationship piece and we do we hear about microaggressions in the workplace. But like, what about like, micro health, you know, so acknowledging that your colleague is the one that came up with a really great idea because you know what? That colleague is going to go through their career with you and they're going to maybe remember that you did that, not that you took their idea and pretended it was yours or didn't give them the credit. Right, or, you know, sharing a link, offering to help somebody. Hey, I overheard you talking about this. Did you know you could do this? Like, you know, it can be pretty competitive in the junior ranks at times. And while that may, in the short run benefit some people, what I think I've seen over the course of my, you know, 20, 25 years is that the people that were willing to help each other and to kind of stick together and do those things excelled long term because they were building that network. They're building those relationships. They're being who they really are. And it was like meaningful. But what I was trying to get at before was I saying, you do all these things and they compound and they and you become it's easier to do without maybe the things that were harder. So yes, I would write an email and then I'd print it and I'd sit there and I'd read it, and then I'd write it out again, and then I'd send it. If I did that with every email, I'd never get my job done now. Right? But because I did that practice and I worked harder, and I did work longer hours to do stuff like that. As a simple example, you know, I got a little bit better at it, and I think I think a lot of people think that the career accelerator has come from like the big flashy move, the like the title, the job switching, all of the things which I think is becoming more of a norm. And that's fine because you get different experiences. But to me, I think it's the micro habits. It's the stuff that you consistently do that you kind of build into your muscle memory and that you just keep building on that in the long run, are going to like, actually pay off. I love that. I think that is I think like there’s such great stuff in there and honestly, if people legit just do not just but I mean, just do those things you said oh my God, like the opportunities that will come your way, the the amount of people who will want you to win. Like that's another subtlety that comes from what you're describing, is there are people out there who you're like, I really hope they succeed. That is like they deserve to succeed. And the more of these things you can build, like, you know, sharing credit, keeping an eye where you can help other people. People remember that. 100% And it goes again to the it speaks again to your brand with, you know, students often come with no brand, which is okay. Right? Because you're you're just starting. But if you can do these things to build your brand, that it's very potent, I think. One quick tip on the on the writing thing that I again, shamelessly stole from someone else is read it out loud. Oh my God, the amount of times I've read something out loud and I'm like, that doesn't make any sense. Yeah, that's not good. Who wrote that? What idiot wrote that? I was like, wait, that was me, right? And so reading out loud is actually a really, really effective technique, but oh my God, you said so much great stuff. Or taking a break. If you can manage it take a break. Write something like not an email maybe, but like if you're writing a memo, if you can get it done the day before, I know that's not always possible. So you can read it the next morning. Trust me, you'll find stuff. But, you know, it's so interesting, right? Because our, our, the mental function we're doing of writing and editing are completely different. Our brain is doing different things. It is trying to accomplish different things. And you do need a space and time. It really you really benefit at least from a space and time between those two. I also think I also thought you had a really good point about feedback is people I've seen who are very successful, they they accelerate that feedback cycle as much as they possibly can. It's a it's a little bit like an athlete putting in reps, trying to get as many reps in as possible, high quality reps. I think there's also a misunderstanding sometimes where people think, oh, my manager needs to give me feedback. I shouldn't ask for it. Like, I'm going to wait. And no, like you need to take some control of the situation. Be mindful. You know, managers busy. They can't be just spending their entire time coaching you. But when you have those opportunities, take them to get a little nugget of information for sure. For sure. So listen, I mean, I really appreciate the amount of time you're giving us. Let's move to our wrap up questions here. Any pet peeves in interviews? Just out of curiosity, anything where you're you're in an interview, candidate does it and you're like, stop that. Gosh. I mean, I think sometimes being a little bit, like, too informal can sometimes be a bit of a pet peeve. Like it's like, I don't know, it's a walking, it's a fine line. But, you know, I can remember having someone and there's a sort of sitting there like this and, you know, and I'm like, okay, put the feet up on the desk. Yeah. Or, you know, acting like, you know, they're a little bit too cool for school, if you will, in terms of the questions that are being asked and kind of acting like they didn't, they don't know why they're being “Of course I know how to do that.” You know, it's I don't I don't think I have pet peeves per se. It's just about being respectful and recognizing your environment. And, you know, on the topic of when we get to the stage of the interview or where the interviewer says, do you have any questions for us? Are there any questions you can you can think of? Or you know how people can approach it where you're just like, wow, that was awesome. Their questions, I think where they're more layered and they're deeper than a surface level question around, you know, what are the main responsibilities of the role beyond what's there? Or, you know, they are they demonstrate some research into the role in and of itself, the organization of saying something along the lines of, I see you're hiring for XYZ and you have other members on the team. How do you feel this person's going to fit into that team, for example? So there's thoughtful, like they're really thinking things through. They're not sort of standard questions that if you went into ChatGPT and said, what are the questions I should ask about this organization and you're not spewing those out? It's like, you know, what is your one weakness? While I'm a perfectionist, we all know that answer, right? Like we seem really clever when I was in high school and now I'm like, oh no, I gotta come up with something better than that, right? Don't say that. No canned answers, no canned questions. I guess it's a way that I would say it. I don't there's not one that I can think of that I was like, wow. But other than they really thought about this and they really do need to know this information in order to make an educated decision. Right? It's a good frame, like you're gathering information that helps you as the candidate also make a good, informed decision of is this the right place for me? Maybe they really want me here, and this is not going to be a place where I'm going to be happy, and then nobody's going to be successful in that scenario, right? Okay. So again, you know, or referring back to something they got asked in the interview that's that has actually caught my attention before. Like, oh, you asked me this question earlier. I just wanted to flesh that out a little bit more. Is it because you're looking for x, y, z? And I'm like, yeah, they really paid attention. And they thought about it. Not only that, they're still thinking about it while they're answering my other questions and engaging in a conversation which shows another level of multitasking. Right? Yeah. So it's interesting that very much is someone having a conversation that's not ping pong back and forth question and answer. That's a conversation interesting and practice it. That would be my other tip. Practice that like when people practice interviews, they practice answering a question. Right. And so what I would say is take it a step further, have the whole interview and practice trying to make it conversational where you can, right? That's a actually a really interesting way to think about it. A couple more books, podcasts, you would recommend to people early in their career. Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to give you a different answer to what you just said. Okay. It's okay. I wouldn’t recommend books or podcasts necessarily. There's not one that I'm like, oh yes, do this or read this. But I would tell them to read the news right? and be focused on current events and history, I think. And I don't mean like, you know, sort of the social media kind of, you know, loop back that you get of your own sort of, echo chamber. Yeah. Right. But, you know, going to reputable news sources, knowing what's going on in the world and having context for why certain investment decisions are being made, certain deals are being done, and and understanding that understanding some of the history. I'm not talking about being like an expert on all of this, but just having context. I don't feel that that is necessarily always evident when I'm with younger people. I mean, as it was I don't know if it's social media, I'm not sure, but I think that that's a little bit part of it. And how we digest our news. So probably not the answer you were looking for, but I really think that that's something that I would focus on. Read an article in the paper every day. And I think, I mean, once everyone knows this, but you also your social media, the algorithms, like you kind of get back what you put into it. And so you have discussions with someone about a current event, and you realize very quickly that they're getting their sort of echo chamber news about it. Right. And, you know, it's difficult these days to figure out where the new is and where is a good source. But doing your homework and figuring that out, I think is very worthwhile. Yeah. S.J. Tell me, what are the things you love about working at Sprott? I love the people, and it sounds like a cheesy answer, but I really do. And I think that that's huge because you can work in this industry and like so many different places, and you have to really like the people that you work with and spend a lot of time with them more than, sometimes more than your family. I think we have a really special place here. We're small. I like that too. I think that's actually something that I would tell students to really think about. I started off at a really big organization, worked really well for me, as a training ground because they had formal programs, like this whole osmosis thing. I was telling you, like they had courses on, like going out to meals and like computer skills and things like that. You come some are like Sprott for lack of a better term, were going to throw you a bit more in the deep end. Right? We're smaller, 130 people, and so there's no sort of hiding, you know, you're you're going to have to just kind of roll your sleeves up and get going and be entrepreneurial a little bit more. I wouldn’t say you aren’t in the big organizations. But I think there's just a lot more structure and red tape and hierarchy than you would in a smaller organization. And I like that I'm in a smaller organization. I like that I know all the people that I work with. I know all the 130 employees and we're a team. And if I need to get something done, I'm not like, okay, I need to talk to this person who then needs to talk to this person. who needs to talk to this person. I'm like, I just go to our CEO and I'm like, hey, here's, you know, if it's appropriate to go the CEO, but I can, and I like that. I like that I work for an organization where there's no closed doors, and people are willing to help each other out. Cool. Last one for me. 22 year old S.J. Martin comes to you and says, what advice would you give me for a successful career and happy life? What do you tell 22 year old S.J.? I tell 22 year old S.J. to focus on the things that she finds really interesting and that make her happy. And that sounds really kind of cheesy and basic, but like, you know, I think I wanted to be a lawyer because that to me felt like the next big challenge. It felt like the next academic sort of ring that I could jump for and like, you know, what is it to be a lawyer like there's like doctors and lawyers. You got to, you know, and it wasn't necessarily the right decision for me now. It worked very well for my career. And I think that's where why I'm at, where I'm at. And I think that it taught me a lot of things and critical thinking, but I think I would have taken a step back and maybe focused on learning more about the industry, learning more about the roles. I would have done more homework. You know, I think it worked out well for me, but I sometimes feel like it's not a happy. I shouldn't say it's a happy coincidence. It's not. I worked really hard to get where I'm at. But, you know, I think it could have maybe been a quicker, easier ride had I just done a bit more homework upfront. Right. And then I think I also would probably tell myself to worry less. I was really worried when I was younger about getting a job that was going to be very secure, and we find we were I was financially insecure. My family growing up. And so I was very, very focused on that and wanting to get that type of career. And I think now I recognize that if you work hard and you build those relationships and you don't say no to opportunities, you keep the blinders off and you think about the different things that can happen. It will work out if you're willing to put in the effort and the work right. And so I wish I could have enjoyed it a little bit more at the beginning. If that makes sense. Fair enough Yeah. Awesome. Well, S.J. that was a fabulous discussion. I think our audience is really going to benefit from it, and we really appreciate you being here. So thanks so much for taking the time to be with us. And, look forward. Maybe we'll, we'll, stay in touch over the overtime. Yes. No, thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it. It's a lot of fun. Awesome. Thank you.