Anything But Law
We love law, but we don't always want to talk about it. Who are we outside the boardroom and courtroom? In this show, we explore how our multiple purposes collide and ask the question: where does our motivation to work come from? Community and business leaders join us to share personal stories about their passions, how they stay driven, and what makes them tick.
Anything But Law
Piper Riley Thompson: Overcoming Adversity and Empowering Future Lawyers
During her first year of law school, Piper Riley Thompson battled depression and doubt, often questioning if she was on the right path. In this episode, she opens up about her remarkable journey of resilience and self-discovery, which led her to become a career advisor and Ontario bar exam coach. Drawing strength from her grandmother's wisdom, Piper’s story is filled with pivotal moments that offer both hope and practical advice to anyone considering a career in law.
Piper's journey highlights the unexpected turns a legal career can take, showing how she transitioned from practising law to a fulfilling role at the University of Calgary. She shares valuable insights on how law graduates can adapt to the fast-changing legal landscape, with a focus on career pivots and the growing role of technology in the profession.
From personal growth to embracing neurodiversity, Piper candidly discusses her ADHD diagnosis and her weight loss journey during law school. Her reflections on mental health and body positivity are both enlightening and empowering. Plus, hear about her viral TikTok moment and her humorous take on balancing personal branding with authenticity. This episode is a must-listen for anyone looking for inspiration, offering a fresh perspective on the many dimensions of life as a legal professional.
Presented by: Lerners LLP Hosted by: Mark McAuley Executive Production: Natalee Davis Project Management: Dylan Willems Audio Engineering: Aaron Murray – Charterhouse Studios (Season 1,3), Chandra Bulucon - Puppy Machine Recording Studio (Season 2) Graphic Design: The Branding Firm Inc. (Season 3), Jen Luchka and Dawn Yan Theme and Underlying Music: Mark McAuley and Randy McAuley
In addition to this, piper and her co-host, co-founder and co-partner, Erin O'Rourke, host Off the Tracks, a podcast that I best describe as a series of fascinating conversations with legal professionals who have carved out interesting and fulfilling careers outside of the standard practice of law. Piper thinks different, and she has a concern for making sure that what can be a very stressful and rigorous career is also one that provides joy and fulfillment. It's my pleasure to be speaking with Piper today. Piper, welcome to Anything but Law.
Piper Riley Thompson:Mark, this is my favourite topic Anything but Law so thank you for having me and thank you for that very generous introduction.
Host:I think it captures it. I don't think it is. I think it might have undersold you actually, if I'm being honest, If I'm being really honest. So I mean, I listened to Off the Tracks a few episodes and I know you like to start by allowing your guests to tell the audience a little bit about their journey, so I'm going to open up some space for you to tell us about yours.
Piper Riley Thompson:Wow, thank you Weird being on the other side. So I went to law school. I always joke by accident and I actually in conversation with a student at work yesterday at the University of Calgary I. You know it's really neat to meet students and learn a bit about what they're going through and use sort of like what I have learned through my career and ask them probing questions to help them figure out their next steps. And I think for me, going to law school at the time felt like the right next step and to this day I don't really know what the right next step would have been. I had already accepted a master's program when I got into law school and then I got into law school and obviously, you know, switched into that program and I I don't think the master's program was the right next step. I don't think law school was necessarily the right next step.
Piper Riley Thompson:Um, but I did it. And I remember sitting in, maybe like my first or second day of legal research and writing, and being surrounded by people who were so excited to be there and thinking to myself, what the fuck have I done? And you know, that feeling persisted the entire first year and I was so unbelievably depressed and freaked out. I didn't know what I had decided at 22 to make this huge life choice and this huge financial commitment. And I remember, after my first year, people saying to me you really don't have to go back. And at that point I thought I did not just go through that year of absolute hell to not go back. I did not come this far to come this far.
Piper Riley Thompson:And so I went back for my second and third year and things got better. Things were definitely better. I threw myself into extracurriculars and you know courses that I was interested in, and it did get better. And I articled at a full service midsize firm and I just always felt like I was in the wrong place. I always felt like this was not for me. This was not what used my best skills, and so when given the opportunity or presented with the opportunity to pivot my career. I jumped on it immediately.
Host:I think there's a couple of things that you just said that really resonate with me and I just wrote this down. I have a little book that I carry around with me that has interesting quotes, and I love this one. I did not come this far to only come this far. I think that's actually a really, really good motivator. But there was something else you said about the master's versus the law school route and how you weren't sure it was the next right step. How is anybody ever sure it's the next right step, especially when you're talking to these people who are usually just kind of finishing undergrad, these students that you're speaking with, they're just kind of. They don't know what the next right step is. And do we ever know that? I mean, this is a philosophical question, but is there actually a next right step?
Piper Riley Thompson:I think that's a great question and I'm not sure I'm going to 100% answer it, but my grandma, my grandma Bev, who is 100% going to be listening to this podcast.
Host:Okay, hi, grandma Bev.
Piper Riley Thompson:Nobody is a bigger fan of things like that than my grandma Bev. My grandma is a massive Steve Jobs fan and there is a Steve Jobs quote something about life is about connecting the dots. I am paraphrasing. I'm sorry, grandma and um, but this is a quote that's really stuck with me when my grandma has told me at over the years that life is all about connecting the dots. And I really think that when I look back at my life, um, I would never be working in this job I love at the university of Calgary had I not failed the bar exams, Because building my business material bar exam coach came from failing the bar exams, and building my business is what led me to have the skill set to be able to get this job at the University of Calgary. And so at the time when I failed the bar exams, my goodness, that was a close second or pretty tied bad year for my first year of law school.
Piper Riley Thompson:But it led me to this. So when you ask about the next right step, I try and think of okay, but what's the next dot? And sometimes it takes a little while to feel like the dots connect. And sometimes you have a cluster of dots that connect over here and a cluster of dots that connect over there, and they don't necessarily all connect. But at some point, looking back in your life, you'll see some of these connections.
Host:What's the next dot? Well, look at that, you're just filling up my little black book today. Just filling it up, so I guess this kind of. There's a question I like to ask everybody on the podcast. I'll get to it later, but I'm pretty sure I know what the answer is going to be. So then, based on your trajectory so far, what advice do you give to students preparing for a career in law that might not go the way they expect it to go?
Piper Riley Thompson:Something I always say is you know yourself best. You know yourself better than anybody else could ever know you, and you are the only one that has to wake up every day and live your life. So the career decisions that you make or obviously the personal decisions that you make as well obviously they might affect other people around you and other people close to you, but you are the only person that has to wake up and really live with the reality of that decision every day. So when students are deciding their career paths or their next dot or next right step, it can be really hard. We all feel outside influences sometimes and sometimes it's hard to come back to. What do we want? What do we know might be the best next thing for us? And that's what I try and really get students to zero in on.
Host:Nobody ever told me that Law is a great career. Everybody said they lied so hard.
Piper Riley Thompson:I'm joking.
Host:I'm joking. I'm joking. So what was the impetus for the pivot Dang? So what was the impetus for the pivot the pivot from the idea of practicing law? I love this question. There were a few people I've spoken to who are no longer lawyers and I remember when I was in law school I wanted to run a speaker series on people who have a law degree, who no longer practice law, who do other things, and because I'm an entertainment person, I thought agents and managers, but there's also business leaders and, obviously, politicians a lot of lawyers who are politicians. But I always ask that question what was that day? The day when you're like, oh yeah, it turns out that this is not what I want to be doing.
Piper Riley Thompson:So earlier I had mentioned, you know, I didn't come this far to come this far. And when I failed the bar I spoke to so many different people being like, what should I do? And some people said, you know, you don't have to get called to the bar. And I was in the middle of my articles and I thought to myself again, I didn't come this far to come this far. Then I finished my articles and I I truthfully and I can say this now, I couldn't say this at the time I knew I knew there was no job that was going to get me to find the magic of practicing law.
Piper Riley Thompson:I knew from my friends and my peers who had already found that magic when we were in law school that that magic just did not exist for me and didn't fire me up in the morning. But I didn't come that far to come that far. So I got a job practicing law and it was in an area of law I was always really curious about and had focused my studies in and was really excited about. If I had to be excited about practicing law. But again, I'd be lying if I said that it's what I wanted to be doing and the thing is I didn't know what I wanted to be doing. I spent a large portion of the pandemic thinking I would pivot into tech.
Piper Riley Thompson:It seemed like the hot thing to do and pivot into tech and work in people and culture and I connected with so many people on LinkedIn and I had so many Zoom coffee chats and joined different groups and things. And it's funny because I don't know if this is a story I've told before, but on June 30th 2022, I spent $2,000, which I mean it's still a lot of money to me, but it was especially a lot of money to me at the time. I spent $2,000 on a course all about pivoting your career into tech and the course was supposed to take you like be a six week live, hands-on course and in that six weeks you were supposed to be able to pivot your career into tech. But I signed up on June 30th because if you signed up before July 1st, you saved a buttload of money. But the course didn't start until the first week of September and I remember talking with my therapist about making this investment and my therapist I adore my therapist and this was great advice at the time and she said Piper, you're not going to spend the summer searching for a job, you're going to enjoy the summer.
Piper Riley Thompson:Nothing really comes up in the summer. This makes sense to sign up for the course now and have something to look forward to in September and, sure enough, this job came up at the University of Calgary. I got the job and then, the next thing I knew, when the course was starting in September, I was starting this new job and there was no course taking on my part. So how did I know I was going to pivot my career? Well, I didn't know that I was going to get to pivot and pivot it into like a dream job working with law students, but I definitely knew I was going to pivot it for a long time.
Piper Riley Thompson:You kind of bounced off a dot, then if we're talking about connecting dots- Exactly that's a dot that I look at now and I think I hope that course works for other people.
Host:I really hope that somebody else got that. Did you get your money back? It just occurred to me.
Piper Riley Thompson:So, as someone that creates courses and has had this experience where people buy something and don't use it, I did not ask for my money back out of respect for the business model and recognizing that they're doing a great thing. So no, I did not. I just let it be what it was.
Host:Wow, look at you, you're also a philanthropist, just giving to business.
Piper Riley Thompson:Just giving to business, not intentionally. Daddy, it's time to take a break.
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Piper Riley Thompson:And now back to the show.
Host:It's interesting that you mentioned tech, because I did want to touch on that and everybody I speak to who is involved in the legal industry. I had a conversation with Aaron Baer about this, about how tech might actually fundamentally transform what we do into a truly changing landscape. As far as law is concerned. I think people always talk about the shifting landscape of a profession, but law is really shifting. Large language models are going to change the way we do things. How are you preparing students for this next step, because it's going to be a little different than what we did and we haven't been out that long and very different from what the people who will be mentoring them will or would be doing.
Piper Riley Thompson:So I mean, it's no secret that the world is changing, but with that the legal profession is changing and has changed, and I think one of the largest issues that the legal profession faces is and I mean many professions, to be frank but is the intergenerational workforce and the difference of ideas and expectations, and I think that that's an exciting problem to have, because I think that there's such an opportunity to learn from one another.
Piper Riley Thompson:Now that obviously involves needing buy-in from all of the intergenerational people involved in this issue, but I think that that's really exciting and so preparing students to have their own ideas of what work and life should look like and preparing students to seek out employment opportunities that best align with their goals.
Piper Riley Thompson:I think of one of the very first students I met and had an advising session with really, really within the first week or so of me starting my job at the University of Calgary, and this student was going through an organized recruitment and was deciding between two very different law firms.
Piper Riley Thompson:They were fortunate to sort of have two options at the end of the recruit and they were deciding between two very different firms and they had reasons that would have made sense in the eyes of everybody else to go to one firm and reasons that made sense to them to go to the other firm, and they chose the reasons that made sense to them, which was such a rewarding thing to witness. But I think, as I was alluding to earlier, your life only has to make sense to you. When I retired my license to practice law, it definitely didn't make sense to some people, but your life only has to make sense to you. When I retired my license to practice law, it definitely didn't make sense to some people, but your life only has to make sense to you, and I think that that's a really important thing that we let new lawyers know as they go into this ever-changing workforce.
Host:I mean that's great advice. Your life only has to make sense to you, and I think about this often. I had a great mentor who once said there are two types of people to look for in this profession the people of the practice that you like and the people who lead the life that you like. And they're very rarely the same people. But when you look forward, you kind of take a view of the, you look at the possible career trajectories ahead and kind of measure those out.
Host:Now I have a question, because I had said something earlier and I repeated it because I thought nobody else could see the audience can see, but I put in air quotes Mentorship in the legal profession, which I think is something that every lawyer that I've ever spoken to has said. There's got to be a better way to do it. I mean, you're still at the point where you're, you're, you're kind of this is a horrible visual, but you're kind of pushing the birds out of the nest and you don't you don't necessarily get a chance to to make sure that they're actually still flying Awful, awful visual. But I mean, you know, do you? Can you speak to that? Can you speak to any any positive experiences you've had past students or even people that you work with right now about mentorship in the legal profession that they've spoken about.
Piper Riley Thompson:Absolutely so. Something that is really interesting is in Calgary and in obviously a lot of different cities, but here in Calgary our first year recruit is really large cities but here in Calgary, like, our first year recruit is really large. So so many students go and get first year recruit jobs and then they come back in their second year and we talk about their summer experience. And same thing with second year students who come back for their third year and we talk about their summer experience. I think you know feedback is really where it's at Like. Students are craving feedback and feedback that lifts them up but also helps them learn.
Piper Riley Thompson:I think almost everyone would agree that when they go and have their first job working in a firm, they are smacked in the face with the reality that they know next to nothing. At least, they don't know how the firm wants them to be doing things. And students need feedback, and I think that that is the best way that I can describe it, and I think students also just need to know that they're in an environment where they can make mistakes, Maybe not like multi-million dollar mistakes, but like a drafting mistake here and there. Students need to know that they will be supported in those mistakes, because one of the best ways to learn is by making mistakes.
Host:You're bringing me right back to this question. I'd like to save it until later, but I'm going to do it now anyways. It's a question I've been asking everybody, because we talk a lot about resilience these days, but my view of resilience is resilience is what happens when adversity hits. And so my question that I ask people often and I don't know why, it's something I've become obsessed with. But what is your favorite failure? And I think I know because you've already mentioned it but what is your favorite failure? What is the one thing that taught you the most and has brought you to where you are today?
Piper Riley Thompson:Wow, mark, so many failures, but no, but honestly like and I welcome them. And sometimes, you know, sometimes we all have days where I think to myself I just woke up and I failed all day Like nothing went right.
Host:All I do is fail, fail, fail, no matter what.
Piper Riley Thompson:All I do is fail.
Host:Yeah, I view it with a sense of humor. I think it's quite funny, but I know that some people really struggle with the idea of failure. But I'm like, no, it's part of living is getting it right and getting it wrong, and we probably get it wrong more often than we get it right.
Piper Riley Thompson:Yeah.
Host:So is there a favorite one? Is there one that stands out, a shining example?
Piper Riley Thompson:I mean, the shining example is Failing the Bar, and I wish that I had something fresh to share on that. But honestly, failing the Bar changed the trajectory of my life. Filling the bar changed the trajectory of my life and added to that was, I think, why is? Because there was such a massive feeling of feeling behind, like feeling behind my peers. And so when I filled the bar I was really determined to still quote get called on time, which to most people going through a licensing process who graduate law school in Ontario, it means getting called by the following June after your graduation.
Piper Riley Thompson:And I rewrote the two bar exams in separate settings, separate sittings. So in November. And then I was scheduled to write in March and three days before my March rewrite of the solicitor exam, the law society canceled the exam because of COVID. And then I was scheduled to write in March and three days before my March rewrite of the solicitor exam, the Law Society canceled the exam because of COVID. And then they didn't reschedule the exam again until June. And there also was like a six-week purgatory or seven-week purgatory where they didn't tell us when they would be rescheduling the exam. So it was just like sitting there waiting they would be rescheduling the exam. So it was just like sitting there waiting, and.
Piper Riley Thompson:But what that rescheduling meant was I would not get called at the same time as my friends, and at the time it felt like the end of the world, but it was out of my control. So I let myself have, like you know, a pity party for a day or a weekend, when it happened in March. And then you know it was the peak of the pandemic, and so all of us were getting called by email and the only reason I knew people were getting called is because they were posting on social media. But when I got called two and a half months later, at the end of August 2020, again by email nobody cared. The only person who had cared about feeling behind was me.
Piper Riley Thompson:Yeah, no, grandma was so excited.
Host:She didn't care, she didn't feel like I was behind.
Piper Riley Thompson:She was so happy, but I had been the only person who had cared about this perception of feeling behind, and so that bar exam failure taught me a lot of things, but one thing it definitely taught me is you are always right on time for your own life, and I think that that is such an important thing to remember.
Host:Oh, that's another big one. Well, you're just filling up the black book today. Filling it up. I want to pivot to the podcast. Let me get some time to write this down. First, you guys have really interesting conversations with people who are and it's not even legal adjacent, they're still, you know, yeah, legal adjacent. I would say Very interesting conversations about with people who are transforming the practice, even transforming themselves. You know, with this legal background, what inspired this Off the Tracks podcast? What was the inspiration to telling those stories?
Piper Riley Thompson:Off the Tracks was inspired by the fact that when Aaron and I were in law school, we really felt like we were told there was only one right way to be a lawyer and that wasn't the fault of anyone at our law school. I hear this from students at the University of Calgary all the time is, you know, I feel like students talk a lot about feeling really pushed on one path. You go into the legal profession, you work at a firm, you become an associate, you make partner the end and obviously you see like sprinkles of examples when you're in law school of other people doing it differently. But we wanted to talk to people who had actually done things differently and so some people on our podcast are people who followed that you know quote on the tracks path, but they're doing really unique, different things on the side and I think the crux of it is so often, you know, I'm sure you've seen jokes and I'm sure people listening to this have seen jokes about people who are lawyers sometimes make being a lawyer their entire personality.
Host:Their entire identity actually.
Piper Riley Thompson:Entire identity. Yes, correct, and we wanted to show like there are so many different ways to be a lawyer, and being a lawyer is not the entirety of who someone is, and that's a really important part of our mission with Off the Tracks.
Host:And can you think of and I'm not going to put you on the spot here one of your favorite conversations on Off the Tracks?
Piper Riley Thompson:I have two favorite conversations off the top of my head. And they're a favorite, because I returned them over and over.
Host:No hesitation.
Piper Riley Thompson:Right Jumped right in no hesitation, and I have heard from so many students specifically about these two episodes. One is with a woman named Rachel Kwan. Rachel Kwan is now counsel at Wealthsimple and there wasn't really like a clear theme to what we talked about with Rachel. She just is a cool person who has great advice, but she's just amazing and uplifting and very realistic. But another one that just I relate to so much we had a series on the podcast, so some of the episodes are standalones, like Rachel's, where we just have cool people, and others are part of a series where for multiple episodes in a row we talk about the same theme, also with cool people.
Piper Riley Thompson:And the first episode of our was it our second life series. Our second life series, I believe, was with a woman named Michelle Thompson and Michelle talked about student debt and she talked about the importance of celebrating things in people's lives, especially women, that aren't marriage or children, and the importance of celebrating your friends when they hit big milestones like paying off their law school debt or moving for a job or anything like that. And that was a really cool conversation, especially as someone who can relate a lot to that and being in a different stage of life where I am consistently excited to be celebrating people's big life milestones like marriage and children, but those are not my current life milestones and I think listening to Michelle talk about the importance of celebrating other things was really, really special.
Host:So I mean this is it's very funny. I was watching a clip on somebody today. I was talking about kind of reframing the way our energy when it looks at. When we look at things like this, instead of saying I'm nervous, say I'm excited, so, instead of like that type of reframing as you're going through it. That's something that I've been chewing on lately, which is figuring out ways to reframe the way you're experiencing something. But I'm going to either link to I'm going to listen to these anyways I'm going to link to these so that people can hear them, because you you didn't even hesitate, so they should be linked to in our podcast, um, on our podcast page. Um, I want to ask you a question that's related to this what are you celebrating today? You're talking about celebrating these milestones. What are you celebrating today? I have a friend. Every time I ask him, hey man, what are you doing or how's it going, he's like I'm celebrating, like every day. That's his response. It's like he's been answering that like for 20 years. But what are you celebrating today?
Piper Riley Thompson:Wow, what a good question. Um, I moved to Calgary October 2022. And this past October I felt like it was my new year, like I felt like super reflective and really curious about how I was feeling about my life. And I did a lot of reflection on what my first year in this new city looked like. And when I looked back at that year, I really thought to myself okay, you just were surviving.
Piper Riley Thompson:In this first year, you were in total survival mode. You were trying to figure out this new life you were building. And so now in the past seven, eight weeks, I've really been trying to think of okay, what does thriving look like in year two? What does thriving look like? How do I leave survival mode? And so I think that's what I'm celebrating. I definitely don't have it all figured out, and anybody that says that they have it, has it all figured out, is definitely lying through their teeth. But I am definitely celebrating being in a place where I am trying to get more rest and celebrate little things and, um, be more familiar and comfortable in my surroundings.
Host:Oh, that's good. I'm trying to think I'm celebrating the art. Well, here's, here's my, here's what I'm celebrating. You didn't ask, but I'm going to tell you. I'm celebrating trying to master the art of doing nothing.
Piper Riley Thompson:I'm not. I'm nowhere near close to I, can't do nothing. Oh, that's a good one, I'm nowhere near close to.
Host:I can't do it. I don't know how to do it. I'm inherently a busybody, but if I could carve out about three hours a week. It sounds like a lot. I know it's not, but if I could carve out three hours a week to do nothing. I would be very happy. That's a goal for the new year. It sounds ridiculous, but it's not. But if I can cover three hours a week to do nothing, I would be very happy. That's a goal for the new year. It sounds ridiculous, but it's a goal.
Piper Riley Thompson:No, I completely, completely relate to that. My therapist always has talked about with me for years about how I really try and function in fifth gear, which is not the gear that anybody is supposed to be in, and she says you know, I'm never going to get you down to that much lower gear, but if we could get you to like third gear, that would be great. So I definitely relate to what you're saying.
Host:I have a question, then I have lots of questions, because this is a podcast, Mark, why do you always keep saying that? But I asked Aaron about this, Aaron Baer when I spoke to him and I mean, we are a so society is coming to grips with understanding certain parts of like neurodivergence, which is the new lovely category Not new, but I'm wondering if no, I'm wondering, I know our profession is full of people who are neurodivergent. I think sometimes you need to be that way in order to parse out logic from the emotional side. I think it's part of what builds us up no-transcript.
Piper Riley Thompson:I found out I don't know if that's even the right way to phrase it, but I was diagnosed with ADHD in February 2021. Yeah, I was like where am I in the world?
Host:right now.
Piper Riley Thompson:February 2021. And I tried multiple different medications under the advice and supervision of a physician to try and, you know, gain more focus gain. You know, feel how people apparently feel when they don't have a raging ADHD. And I spent, you know, the better part of a year changing medications, switching medications, and nothing worked for me.
Piper Riley Thompson:Nothing made me feel any different. Um, the only thing the medication occasionally did was make me lose my appetite and my appetite, which is a very common side effect of ADHD medication, and so I'm not on any ADHD medication and I think to me this is just my normal. And I know so many people love and medication really helps them, and I've been on when I was, when I had failed the bar and when I was articling, I was on antidepressants and anti-anxiety medication, and I think medication can be such a powerful supportive tool that and you know, I could be on it again in my life in the future. And so I just really want to stress that I think anyone who takes a medication to help them harness what makes them them is just as fantastic as anyone who, for me, the medication didn't work.
Piper Riley Thompson:But to circle back to what you were talking about, I think, like the profession still has a long way to go in understanding. You were saying, like neurodiversity isn't new, but to a lot of people they're new to the conversation. As I've stumbled over my words, this entire answer, because it's not something that I often talk about, I think that the conversation still has room to grow. There are so many things in the legal profession we've talked about for years that still aren't perfect, like the retention of women, the retention of racialized lawyers people coming back from paternity leaves.
Piper Riley Thompson:maternity leaves, um, all of these things we've talked about for years, but there isn't like a perfect answer. We're still not necessarily doing it right, and so I think that there's still a long way to go in fully understanding neurodivergence in the context of our profession. Did that answer your question, Mark? I feel like I'm not sure what I just said for the past three minutes.
Host:Yeah, it did no. No, no, it did no, it did, it did. I always think about it as like. I think about it as like off ramps. Essentially, you know, one of the greatest things about working with a team in an illegal problem is putting a bunch of people who think differently in the same space and not trying to make everybody think the same, because everybody has different strengths. So you bring them in and you kind of harness whatever abilities they have and instead of moving from, instead of viewing it as wow, that was strange or that was different, it's like yeah, that was different. Actually, but I do think you're right about about not recognizing, um, not really seeing people kind of in the workforce, and I think that's one of those things that I'm always kind of chewing on when I meet people who are very open with talking about their journeys through figuring out how they function and how they work on the inside. So I think yeah, I think I mean I'm stumbling over my response to your response Thinking about thinking is a complicated thing to do.
Piper Riley Thompson:And I think the important piece here that I you know I'm not a perfect person, so I've definitely failed at this before, but always really trying to lead with compassion. So sometimes if you're in the workforce and something isn't going the way you want it to be going with somebody else when that happens, it can be easy to jump to conclusions, and sometimes there are it to be going with somebody else. When that happens, it can be easy to jump to conclusions, and sometimes there are conclusions to be jumped to, but also trying to ask the right questions Is this person being supported? Do I fully understand where this person is coming from? Being really curious about the situation before getting angry, I think, is really, really important and helps build safer workplaces and so, like leading with curiosity when interacting with your coworkers and when mentoring younger lawyers, I think is really important to help people feel supported and like safe so that they can talk about their differences.
Host:I think this is something that comes across in your conversations on Off the Tracks is that you are interested in what people have to say, what they think and what they are, what their intentionality is, what they're kind of putting out into the world. So what do you do to wind down or wind up? I mean, I'm talking to you it's early in the morning because you're actually west of us, but let's just start with, like I say to people, what's your guilty pleasure? Or what are you watching on Netflix these days? What are you? How many lint chocolates are hiding just off screen?
Piper Riley Thompson:Yeah, so my answer sucks. I hate my answer, Um, because it sounds it, you know, it just sounds like we're listening to a podcast with, like my answer is going to sound like we're listening to a podcast with like two white men who've come from money who, like you know, they, they have all of the support in the world and they just say, you know, wake up and go to the gym and meditate and everything will be perfect and you'll be a millionaire. And I definitely. I hope I didn't offend anyone by saying that, but I think you know what I mean.
Host:Only, the millionaires who are working out right now.
Piper Riley Thompson:Okay, but.
Piper Riley Thompson:I am someone who, at least four weekday mornings and at least one weekend morning, I need to wake up at the crack of dawn and go to the gym and it's like a full need. I've never had a cup of coffee and I don't even know why, I just like literally never have. So for me, going to the gym at the crack of dawn I joke that I need to be in the gym in a dark room being told what to do by an instructor within about 10 minutes of my feet hitting the floor in the morning to function throughout the day. So for me, like, that is my me time and that is when my brain is not working in the best way. Um, I and I I feel like I've talked about this before, but not like a ton In that really deliciously bad first year of law school I put on 80 pounds and that had never happened to me before, and I was so unbelievably depressed.
Piper Riley Thompson:And after my first year of law school, like you know, at the end of April, it was really important to me to change my mindset, and that involved a lot of falling in love with the gym and getting support in that area, and for me it was. I just didn't feel comfortable in my body and I didn't feel comfortable in my mind, and so I fell in love with the gym. That summer I, you know, got got better in my mind, which was really the goal, but I also changed my body, and for me now the going to the gym is like the mental health maintenance that I do every day, and so that's what works for me. For other people it's going for a walk, For other people it's their morning cup of coffee in the newspaper and I think, like for everyone, it's about finding the thing that like kickstarts your mental health in the morning, and for me it's typically being yelled at by some sort of personal trainer in a workout class, a Pilates class, whatever it is um in a dark room.
Host:Yeah, well, your yoga classes are different from mine.
Piper Riley Thompson:Shavasana now.
Host:Um, no, the yoga classes I go to those.
Piper Riley Thompson:Those are sometimes at night when I need to like chill out Definitely not going to yoga class in the morning, cause I need like a bit more of a kickstart.
Host:Right, right. So I got all kinds of awesome visuals from this idea of being shouted at first thing in the morning. It's just you and I have very different definitions of what it feels like to greet the day.
Piper Riley Thompson:But I also don't have kids, mark, and I know that you have young children. I hear the commercials in this podcast. I don't know if that's actually your child, but it's very adorable.
Host:That is, it's my daughter.
Piper Riley Thompson:Yes, Perfect, perfect. This is a really good time to insert the commercial, but I am not being woken by tiny feet and yelling of young children in the morning, so my views could change over time, but right now that's how it is.
Host:We're not actually much different. I have a standing date in my calendar every morning for 6am which is workout. It literally says gym. So it's like if I don't do it, then my day kind of goes. If I don't get up and move, my day kind of goes sideways. It's just, it's just the reality. If I don't get the blood flowing, my day goes sideways. I mean, I don't like being yelled at in the morning. I don't enjoy that. I don't get personal pleasure out of it. But you know, you know, to each their own. Um, there was something else you were, you were chatting about in there, so you've never had coffee.
Piper Riley Thompson:No, never, never that. When I needed to stay awake you know pulling a late nighter with um in my undergrad or with law school um, I would turn to apple juice. Don't ask me why, but give me a bit of a sugar high. But I had to time it correctly. So I wish people could see your face right now. Yeah, I turned to apple juice when. I really needed to stay awake, um, but it didn't last that long. So, yeah, I never had a cup of coffee.
Host:Piper, this is an intervention. We need to get you off the juice.
Piper Riley Thompson:Yeah, I'm so sorry. It's okay, it's not an issue, I promise.
Host:It's very occasional use. You kicked the apple juice.
Piper Riley Thompson:Yeah, it's very occasional use when necessary.
Host:You've got it under control.
Piper Riley Thompson:Yeah, I have it under control. I do want to just stress two things, though, because I think it's really important when having a conversation about like body size, because I feel like this is not something that our world has necessarily mastered the conversation about and I don't claim to have mastered it. I strongly believe that all bodies are good bodies, and the reason that I was able to lose that weight in a healthy way is because I respected my larger body as much as I wanted a smaller one, and so when I look back at pictures of me in a larger body, I think to myself, like that Piper was just as good as this Piper and yeah, I think that that was like a really important part of my journey and something especially as like a woman that my friends and I talk a lot about, and the other thing as well that I would say. The thing that I learned the most from that experience was oh my gosh, do people treat you differently depending on how you look?
Piper Riley Thompson:Oh my gosh, I cannot explain the experiences I had coming back to law school. Like I said, I had put on 80 pounds in my first year. I lost 75 of those pounds in the summer between first and second year and when I came back to law school in a very different body, the treatment I received from people was so different and to this day I can think of only three people, specifically peers of mine from law school, who treated me the same in those two bodies, who were nice to me and treated me the same no matter how I looked. And there are two of those three people who I've just sort of lost touch with. But I just will always have such an affinity for their kindness and I think it's really important you never know what someone is going through, regardless of how they look, and I think it's just so important to treat everyone with kindness because people really notice, especially if circumstances change who treated them with kindness when they weren't at the highest point.
Host:Yeah, I think leading with kindness is well. You said lead with curiosity, I think, and before, but leading with kindness is also super important, daddy it's time to take a break.
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Piper Riley Thompson:And now back to the show.
Host:So I want to pivot again. In doing my research on you, I was pulled to a New York Post article that featured your smiling face, and then there was an endless scroll of articles linked to the article. It was about a TikTok video that you shared some time ago. Do you want to? I wasn't going to talk about it, but I'm curious. You went viral on TikTok. Can you tell me why?
Piper Riley Thompson:I did. I did. My TikTok is now locked and I thought this might come up when you requested to follow me and I obliged. And yeah, you know I'd never made a TikTok video before. I had just been a curious consumer, like many during the pandemic. But I went through a really what I what I feel is a really unique breakup process romantic breakup and, uh, I posted two TikToks about it, Um, both of which went extremely, extremely viral. Um, and then you know, when you're getting texts from your friends like, hey, um, I just read about your breakup on and I really don't like this publication, but, you know, on barstool sports, or I just read about your breakup on Yahoo news, or, um, you know, or friends of mine would text me and say, you know, uh, this is kind of a weird thing to say, but friends of mine who don't know you are like sending me your breakup video, being like, oh, look at this breakup. And they say, yeah, that's one of my good friends and so it was definitely a weird experience. Okay, yeah, yeah.
Host:Yeah, I haven't seen the video. I haven't seen it. The reason why I requested to follow is because I know that you are a user of TikTok and it's kind of a place where people post things. I don't post TikTok, yeah.
Piper Riley Thompson:Yeah, I'm not cool enough. I don't post them anymore.
Host:I don't do anything interesting.
Piper Riley Thompson:Yeah, you know, going viral on TikTok was really interesting because I gained an influx of followers like almost 7,000 followers at the time from like the literally millions of views. And then it felt like there was all of this pressure to keep posting videos. And what that taught me is one do like, only do what you want to do, and I didn't want to keep posting videos. And what that taught me is one do like, only do what you want to do, and I didn't want to keep posting videos. And two, it gave me a newfound appreciation for how hard it is to make those videos and the skills behind it. And the really funny thing is so I went through that breakup when I moved to Calgary, and so this was in the fall of 2022. And in the winter of 2023, in like January or February, I went to go get my eyebrows done for the first time here in Calgary and I was and the irony is I'm actually going to get them done today, so I'm going to go see my eyebrow girl later today but I went to go get my eyebrows done and the girl was asking me about myself and I said, oh, I just moved here. And blah, blah, blah, and she said wait a second, I know you from TikTok. And I said no, you don't. And she said, yes, I do. And she goes you haven't posted a video in a long time. Like I need an update, the fans need an update. And I went Carolyn, what are you talking about? Like this is ridiculous. So now when I go and see her she always goes okay, what's the update? Like you don't post anything, so give me the update. And I say these are private updates for you. But yeah, it was definitely a weird experience. I don't think I will ever be posting a TikTok again, but I don't regret it.
Piper Riley Thompson:And a question that I got asked by some people at the time was you know, you have a pretty unique name. Aren't you worried what people are going to think when they Google you and read about your breakup? And I thought, no, I'm not worried because I'm actually really, really proud of your breakup. And I thought, no, I'm I'm not worried because I'm actually really, really proud of this breakup, and I know that my former partner is too. And the Cole's notes is I got this job in Calgary. I got the job like two weeks before we were supposed to move in together and I took the job instead and we chose together to break up.
Piper Riley Thompson:But we stayed together for seven weeks, because there were seven weeks between the choosing to break up and me moving to Calgary. And we stayed together and we did what we called our breakup goodbye tour. We did all of our favorite things together. We did all of our favorite things together. We saw all of our favorite people, we ate all of our favorite meals, went on all of our favorite drives, all the things. And we ended the relationship with like so much love and respect for the other person and I think for me it like really flipped the script on relationships in general and how the end of a relationship, any relationship, whether it be romantic, professional, friendship, the end of a relationship doesn't mean the relationship failed or the relationship was bad. It just means that you know, for whatever reason it just couldn't move forward in the way that it was before. But you can still look at it with like so much respect for the other person.
Host:There was a Jim Carrey quote that I've loved. Somebody asked him when he and Lauren Hall, it's a long time ago, when they stopped dating and they were together for 10 years, and they said you know what happened? And he said 10 years of love is a good love to have had, like that's good. It was 10 years, it was wonderful. There's nothing bad to say about it. It was 10 great years. And now we've moved on. So, anyways, I had to, I didn't have to ask, but I was kind of curious as to what it felt like to be TikTok famous, because I don't do the ticking or the talking. You see, I think I think too. What's really interesting about the experience?
Piper Riley Thompson:is.
Piper Riley Thompson:I don't do the ticking or the talking.
Piper Riley Thompson:You see, I think I think, too, what's really interesting about the experience is I don't like like shame grows in the shadows there's some quote about that and that's not the exact quote but like shame grows when you let it grow.
Piper Riley Thompson:And I definitely have that experience from the bar exams and um, and that that's why my business started in the first place is because I published a blog post about how shameful and embarrassed I had felt about failing the bar exams. But so for me, like, I don't feel shameful talking about this part of my life though I recognize we're in a profession where it's taboo but it's funny because I go onto LinkedIn, sometimes my favorite place, and I don't say that like with any sarcasm, like it truly is. I love LinkedIn, but I go onto LinkedIn sometimes and you know people are posting about their anniversaries and people are posting about their marriages and their babies and all of those things, and I think that's great. What if I had come on LinkedIn and posted about my breakup? And I think that people would have thought that was really weird. And it's just so interesting, like what we deem appropriate to talk about, when I feel that I learned so much from this experience.
Host:Yeah, it's funny because I feel like LinkedIn has transformed a lot. It used to be professional Facebook and now it's just Facebook. Sounds like an awful way to put it.
Piper Riley Thompson:Yeah.
Host:But I mean I do want to. This is not something we intended to talk about, but you do. You post far more than I do in these platforms. What's your experience in building a brand on LinkedIn?
Piper Riley Thompson:Very accidental, very very very accidental and, I have to admit, my eyebrow person is the only person who's ever come up to me and said, oh, I know you from TikTok. But the amount of times I've had people come up to me and say I know you from LinkedIn, I don't know how to respond. Like I feel weird because like I'm just me and the people that you see online are always one version of themselves online and I try and show up as my very authentic version of myself. But I'm also the version of myself on my couch with my hands in a bowl of popcorn that people don't see on LinkedIn and I'm the version of myself posting TikToks about my breakup and I'm the version of myself phoning my friends crying about something that happened in my day.
Piper Riley Thompson:And there's only so much of yourself that you can show up with in one place in your personal brand and I always try and show up as my most full self, but it's never going to be my fullest self.
Piper Riley Thompson:No, it's very curated. It's all very curated. Yeah, it's very curated, and I also feel that something, though, that I have really tried to do and not always, but I would say at least 50% of the time is I really try and talk about hard things as they're happening. So, with the bar exams, I didn't talk about it until after I'd passed, but now I feel in a position in my career where I can talk about bad shit when it's happening, like last year, right after I moved to Calgary, I made a post about being really depressed and I honestly didn't know how it was going to be received, and I think it's maybe my most engaged post on LinkedIn ever, and I posted it when I was really depressed, and I think that that is what I really try and do is try to show up as, like the most authentic version of myself in that moment, to help other people do that too, even if not online, but just in their own lives than pushing it towards me.
Host:but I think that that's something that's become kind of an idea in the ethos that people are starting to kind of really try to embrace more. And it's hard, obviously, in a world full of curated content and platforms where you want to show a professional in the right suit, with the right angles and the right lighting and you want to make sure that everything that you're saying hits the right tone. And you want to make sure that everything that you're saying hits the right tone. Being authentic is actually very complicated and very challenging in that environment. But anyways, thanks for sharing your story. I appreciate it. So, future plans I know you're looking at dots. I imagine you surfing through space looking at the next dot that you might be connecting. What do you think is next in your mission?
Piper Riley Thompson:Wow, great question, mark. I think it's hard to say. I think what matters most to me is I want to consistently make people feel supported, and there are some days where you just can't succeed at your mission and it doesn't always happen. But I want to make people feel supported. And I think a very, very, very, very far away dot I think like an overarching goal for my career is I want to truly contribute to making the legal profession more inclusive, and I think that can be done through law firm hiring practices. I think that can be done through the conversations we have and how earnestly and openly we hold those conversations. That is like the really long-term goal. I feel, in many ways, that I'm just getting started, which is really exciting and nerve-wracking at the same time. Leave like the tiniest little speck on the map where people can look back and say, oh, like she gave me a hand or, you know, she helped me think differently, and that's what I really try and do.
Host:A speck or another dot for somebody else to jump to.
Piper Riley Thompson:Ooh, maybe another dot. Ooh, good one, Mark A callback.
Host:Yeah, I mean. This is why I led my introduction by saying you're an advocate for advocates, because in all that, I have been able to digest of your content and the things that you put out to the world, the things you put out in social media and the things you put out on your professional platforms as well. It's quite evident that you have a passion for leaving this career in a better place, and so, on behalf of the people who will be your students and your mentees, I will say thank you, and on behalf of the future profession that will be, I'm sure, changed in a positive way by your contributions, I will say thank you again.
Host:Well, Mark, thank you Honestly, I really just think we're all waking up each day and doing the best we can, some of us with a cup of coffee, some of us getting yelled at in a dark room by a personal trainer, but we're all just doing the best we can.
Piper Riley Thompson:So that is my hope moving forward, and my hope is that everybody just can make decisions and be supported in making the decisions that feel the best to them at the time and know that they can always change their mind. Very few things are permanent.
Host:Yeah, I had a conversation with somebody who's a career coach at our university. Conversation with somebody who's a career coach at our university and when I was considering moving shifting firms which I did to where I am now and she had said to me you know, you need to remove this idea of terminal point thinking the next decision isn't the last decision and if you build everything up so that it's every single decision is life or death, then you're probably never going to make a decision because you'll be stuck in some sort of analysis paralysis. But I thought that was actually some good advice for me to carry through Get rid of the terminal point thinking this is just the next right thing or the next best thing for you to do. So, yeah, I have really appreciated speaking with you today and I'm excited to share your journey with the people who will be listening to us, and thank you so much for your time and for getting up early for us.
Piper Riley Thompson:No, of course, this was such a pleasure. I really, really appreciated the opportunity to come and chat and I'm always a message away for anyone who needs any support.
Host:Piper Riley Thompson. Everybody, thank you. Our theme music is by the Macaulay Boys. Special thanks to the marketing team at Learners, especially Natalie Davis and Dylan Willems. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. It really helps us reach more listeners, just like you. If you have any questions, feedback or would like to be a guest on the show, reach out to us at marketing at learnersca. Anything but Law is a Learners Business Law Group production. Thanks for joining us. Cheers.