TPBA BuilderTalk
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TPBA BuilderTalk
Wall Assemblies Part 2
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Welcome to the Texas Panhandle Builders Association TPBA Builder Talk Podcast, where we'll bring you expert advice from the heart of Amarella Building community. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting in the trade, our goal is to keep you informed on the ever-evolving building codes, share best practices, and help you excel in your craft. From innovative design ideas to smart material selections and everything in between, we're here to support you in every aspect of home building. Each episode, we'll dive into the topics that matter most to builders, contractors, and industry professionals, ensuring that you stay ahead of the curve in this rapidly changing landscape. Our discussions are shaped by the experiences and knowledges of our hosts and guests, providing you valuable perspectives that you can apply directly to your work. The views and the opinions expressed are those of the host and the guests that may not always reflect the most up-to-date or accurate information. Let's build something great together, one conversation at a time. Welcome back to the fourth episode of the TBA Builder Talk Podcast. I'm your host, Jordan Dugan, along with my co-host Ben Hardesty. Joel Rafton for the Duration Homes.
SPEAKER_00Robert Downing, RDS Inspection Service.
SPEAKER_04So if you listen to the last podcast, we were talking about wall assemblies. Uh, we we talked about some not so typical wall assemblies. Uh and it's led us to now our wood framing, which is what's common here in Amarillo. So today we're gonna kind of break that down a little bit more.
SPEAKER_05Um, this is the second half of the cliffhanger. This is I know you guys have been waiting. That last one, I haven't slept in three weeks, two weeks, waiting for the second half to come around.
SPEAKER_04Just been up all night.
SPEAKER_05Oh my gosh, thinking about the information thinking about that, you know, leftist hanging there and without even a joyce hanger.
SPEAKER_04It's um as a builder, it's one of my favorite parts of construction. I don't know if you guys are the same way. I know Joel, you were you were you were a framer for a while. I did framing. I like it, I enjoy it. I would assume it's one of your favorite parts too. Yep, it's um yeah, when we're framing a house, uh the feedback we always get from a customer, like, man, we didn't know that the house was just gonna happen this quickly. I'm like, well, hold on now. We're we're just on the first part of this. Framing does go quick. Um, but yeah, let's let's get let's dive into you know the the wall assemblies and the roof and and what makes those up. We're gonna talk about certain materials, um, the names of those. So, you know, if we do have a homeowner out there listening or other other trades that aren't involved in the framing, they'll they'll know what each individual piece of framing is referred to, what it's called typically, um, what it's what it's what it's supporting, what it's doing, the cause, what the whole reason we've got it there and how it's connected.
SPEAKER_05Did you want to um change your story on the wicking thing again? Are you gonna stick with the six miles?
SPEAKER_04I'm still today, I'm still good on the six miles.
SPEAKER_00Okay, then go into the history of framing, then I like that idea.
SPEAKER_01So why do we use wood in other countries? They they use some of those more atypical wall assemblies that we talked about last episode.
SPEAKER_04The history of wood framing. So the history of wood framing, go it, it's we have to look of uh the way that America was started, right? Um we came in over here on a ship and we needed a place to stay. We had to have we had to have shelter from the weather, and so we were using our readily available resources. So now we had Native Americans that were already here.
SPEAKER_05Can't dub in some like covered wagon noise. Come on, you got tricked.
SPEAKER_04We had them we had to probably make the covered wagons too.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, um right. Rawhide theme coming in right now.
SPEAKER_04We had we had Native Americans here that figured out you know, there were caves they were living in, there were um, of course, the teepee, right? So that's they were using a natural resource, they were using you know animal hide and and lumber, the stuff right off of a tree to build up. They were nomadic, moving around a lot more, so they didn't have as permanent structures. As we settled, we started building these more permanent structures. Now, back east, there were some stone, and there were places where we had log cabins and some stone that was going in the stacked style. Um but as we expanded westward, the one resource that we really had that was easily available, easily modifiable to build what we needed to to keep us out of the weathered elements was lumber. Um and a lot of that went into log cabin form because we didn't have the fasteners that we have now. Uh it it cost at the time we could get a nail over here from Europe, but it cost more in tax to get the nail than the nail actually cost to be produced. So nails weren't really an option, um, which brought us into the log home era of that was the way you typically built your settlement. So that was our old school settlement home that we don't have very much of those around anymore. I know WT's got one, uh, uh, which is pretty pretty cool to look at one of our local colleges.
SPEAKER_00I think Texas Tech has one on their campus too, as well. So that was one cabin. That was lived in them, you know, quite a few of them, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Interesting enough. They're different. Once we got some of that settlement established, then that opened up the capabilities of us having a sawmill on on the lumber. And that's where that standardization came in to where we could uh even more easily build without having to go and cut a tree down and you know delimit, debark it, notch it. We had we had lumber readily available.
SPEAKER_05Let's go build I mean and going back to those days, you can just see the the guys pulling up in the in the 23 Ford, taking the back tire off and putting a belt on it, doing the milling and then putting the tire back on and driving home. That's how they did it.
SPEAKER_04Um portable sawmill. I think not long after, about the same time we started getting our sawmill, we started having um it was beyond just a blacksmith here in America, but more of a production type where we were actually making nails uh so that we could also fasten those engineered lumber, not engineered lumber, sorry, the dimensional lumber that we were having milled out could go up even quicker. So that expanded our west our westward expansion got even quicker. Um, but it's been a staple here in America, and we all we've done is just tweak it, make it a little bit better, make it a little bit more efficient, make it last longer.
SPEAKER_05Made the wood smaller, made the wood two by four.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Geez, it's not two by four anymore.
SPEAKER_04No, hopefully it'll stay where it's at because we've got so many uh critical dimensions that rely on that now.
SPEAKER_05But three and a half. Wow. Uh now are it's millimeters or centimeters.
SPEAKER_04But it is it's an interesting thing to think about it. Why we frame a wood while while we don't really build stone walls, while we don't have some of those other structures that um that are all over the world, and most of it is we were in a hurry to get things done, and that was the first resource that was easily usable. And so it worked well for us during the time we needed it, and now we've just modified that we're used to it, re-engineered it, um, and and kind of rethought the way we were building things to still make it accessible and usable and sustainable and durable, and all the things that it needs to be um to make the houses that we're living in now.
SPEAKER_01Yep. So we are also we're kind of talking about availability of you know certain species, why we see certain things in this market that you know, the Pacific Northwest, you're not gonna see, you're not gonna see it in in New England either. Um obviously in Amarillo, there's not a whole lot of uh big trees. So where are we getting our stuff primarily from New Mexico?
SPEAKER_05Is that where it comes from?
SPEAKER_04No, I think we get some of it from Georgia. Um, we still get a lot of it from the Pacific from the place from the Pacific. Um uh because I'm trying to make it Canada. You reach Roseburg, yes, that's the exact name I was trying to think of just now. There's a lot of Roseberg that's here. All of our LVLs, I think, are Roseberg, uh LSLs, a lot of our engineered lumbers.
SPEAKER_05There's a town right next to Bradford called Roseberg, right by the Rogue River.
SPEAKER_04Uh I think a home of the essential craftsman. You guys ever heard of him? No, that's a pretty cool guy. Um anyways, cool place. Yeah, that's where a lot of our stuff comes from, and I think a lot of the other half of it's coming from Georgia area. Um but most of it, most of it were back over toward Oregon. Um but our availability of it, is that one of your questions that you were asking? Why it's regional. Um so of course the guys the guys over on the east coast are using a different species. Uh guys on the west coast are using different species. That's typically where our two sources of lumber come from, and it's a manufacturing supply issue.
SPEAKER_05What we're gonna get here, and what it's gonna cost and what it's gonna cost to get here, and so uh as a builder, or else it's that finger-jointed lumber that isn't a species at all, or it's a combination that combination, maybe, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_04And we and we see that here in town, and it has nothing to do with the builders selecting it, it's what our suppliers have. Availability, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I'm sure the different species of wood will have different characteristics. Is there a particular reason you would use you know, a yellow pine versus a dug fir?
SPEAKER_04Well, longleaf yellow pine is not available anymore. Nope. That's what you saw in the old buildings, uh, which we had here. There are buildings that have it. It's was kind of the premium lumber, the old growth, really hard, really durable. In fact, we've been really good at sustaining our forest forestry and our harvesting off of it and regrowth uh to make it sustainable for the environment and for the economy. Um but in turn, it's it's kind of changed the properties of our lumber in so much that we've even had to change the building code span charts because of that lumber. Yes.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, from an engineering point of view, you'll get spec'd out a certain type of lumber that's engineered for what you want, and other lumbers would just wouldn't qualify. And that's the engineers specifying Douglas for number one in this location for a bearing reason or something.
SPEAKER_01Okay, perfect. So that's that gets us into the conversation of number one, number two in common boards and all that, too.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, and even before number one, number two, you know, the difference between hemlock and pond and Douglas, they even have their own section for spans. So yes, and I'm not familiar enough with denser. I'm not familiar enough with them to tell you which one spans further. I've always got to look back and look at those charts. Um, but some wood is denser and has more of a load ready capacity.
SPEAKER_00If I remember right, Doug Fur probably spans further than anything else.
SPEAKER_05It's graded that way. And it's interesting enough, is and also if you let's say aside from all of this type of wood, and you wanted to take the wood off your property and you wanted to mill it and you want to make your own house, you can have a guy come in and he'll grade that wood. How it done? He comes in and he grades it, and he because if your a house is being built in a jurisdiction where you have to have a permit and have to inspect it, it has to be rated by the wood. Would stamp. Yeah, and so um, but you don't want to go to the lumber yard when you have a whole your whole property's full of lumber. So you'll drop your trees, you'll bring your portable mill in, you'll mill it, and you bring in your inspector, he'll inspect it for density, straight, you know, uh, and he'll stamp it, and you can use that wood.
SPEAKER_01Just stamps the whole bunk that you just put.
SPEAKER_05Well, I can't give to you the certification sort of letter that you get for your permit. He's not gonna stamp each piece of wood. Yeah, it just yeah, right. Take some pictures of one. That's kind of a cool thing. Uh you know, I've been involved in that a couple times. So interesting thought.
SPEAKER_01I wonder again, something we're not used to regionally with not having the number on, right?
SPEAKER_05You know, because you're you're gonna clear your lot to build your house and you're gonna end up with a pile of trees, you know, and there's plenty of portable mill guys that come out and whack it into pieces.
SPEAKER_04The the manufacturer is is responsible for grading that and then sending it to our local suppliers. That is right. I wonder how much that grade changes during that shipment, and by the time we actually reach it. I mean, we talked about on the last episode how much we're having to call, whether it's 10 to 15 percent or whatever it is, but we're also not out there judging the actual grade of that lumber. And I wonder if it's if it's gone from a number two to now it's a number three or or whatever. It just it's it's interesting.
SPEAKER_05Well, part of it has to do with uh with the wane or with with the you know the bark roll, if you well, we call it Wayne. Why do they call it Wayne? That's just a common name back there. Hey Wayne, give us anyways. Uh so if if you know if it's kind of all rolled on three sides or two sides, that's a great issue as well. Um, you're thinking why would it change in transport? Just just I'm thinking dry. I think so it might dry out a little bit more. Well, if it's kiln dried, it wouldn't dry out.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but kilindron now is not like kilendron used to be. Yeah, it's like kilindron now is expressed kilindron that's not completely right air-dried, and it's really not good, it's just good enough.
SPEAKER_05Good enough for a stamp.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Uh, I mean how many of a stamp and a buck. Yeah. Um, and then there's an optimal framing moisture that you want to have when you're framing a building that probably isn't you know given any thought when by the time it comes over here, um, which I think is under 18%.
SPEAKER_05I think it's 12%.
SPEAKER_04I think it's 12%. 12%, which I don't think we have an issue with that because our wood dries also that's an issue in its own self. We we might have the opposite, uh, that have enough moisture. Right.
SPEAKER_01Um so with all this wood that we're talking about, they all it all turns into studs. So everybody knows what a stud is. What different classifications do those studs actually well other than me? That that was a given. But uh so we're obviously making walls out of this stuff. Where do you start with that?
SPEAKER_04Well, um, with with Joel's history, you you typically start uh with the floor assembly with a post-meam or pure meme as it's called.
SPEAKER_05Right. Here we start with a concrete slab and pressure treated. Yeah, yeah. Uh what I actually before the pressure treated lumber is your the the goo you promote. What's that called? Your your seal sealer?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_05What's your favorite brand of the week? Lexel?
SPEAKER_00Yep. Lexel is my favorite. Made by Sashko?
SPEAKER_04Made by Sashko, yep. Yeah, we've had really good experience with it. Um, so good product.
SPEAKER_05Even if it's pressure-treated lumber, it we still don't like to go direct contact to the either stem wall or the slab.
SPEAKER_00But capillary break. And why do we have that capillary break? Capillary breaks help stop the moisture from waking up into the they can go up six miles. Yeah, that's where that six miles come in.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, there we go. We're back to six miles. I I dropped that seed for you.
SPEAKER_04The other thing that stops that that we've talked about before is the vapor control layer that should be going underneath this lab.
SPEAKER_00Yep, true.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's a whole other conversation.
SPEAKER_04We've had it. We've had it. Um, so in Joel's case, yeah, he's used to starting with the floor framing. I'd like to see more of it. We've talked about that here on the show as well. It might come around. Um, makes makes sense, and I think it's a great assembly. Um Joel, why don't you talk about what was your common floor assembly?
SPEAKER_05Well, it's a stem wall. We would do a typical two-foot stem wall. So by the time whether you're dropping your beams in the crawl assembly or putting them on top, I think the code is like 18 inches below the lowest hang me down. And so uh, I mean, first off, you would line the whole crawl space with with the six mil black plastic for the vapor barrier, and then um it could be a uh uh right on the stem wall, or if it's a slope lot, you'd build your pony walls and you could have eight, ten, twelve-foot pony walls to the actual finished floor height, depending on how much contour in the land falls off.
SPEAKER_04So, were you on as far as your floor? Were you typically using trusses or were you using um saw sawn lumber, engineered lumber?
SPEAKER_05What were you what were you uh pretty standard small house? You would use beams.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_05And then you would use inch and an eighth plywood. Okay, and was that spanned uh 32 inches or something like that? Yeah, so you would either have beam pockets in your actual stem wall, which is pretty common. That's let's just say bare basic common. You got a standard stem wall, it's the same height all the way around. It's a flat lot, and you'd have beam pockets, and you would put the beams in there. If you were so inclined and you wanted to have an eye joist, they actually make a little form that goes in the stem wall, and you can have an eye joist pocket, and then you throw all that in there and it levels up right with the pressure treated, the inch and a half that you've bolted down the sill sealer, and yeah, the inch and a half would be your seal plate at this point. And then at that point, your plywood goes right over, and then you're back to ground zero, like you would be here with your slab on grade.
SPEAKER_03Sure.
SPEAKER_05Then you're not using a pressure-treated bottom plate anymore, you're just building a standard wood wall. Okay.
SPEAKER_04The only other alternative to that would be using trusses, and then you could even have a it'd be either a bottom cord bearing or a top cord bearing truss on the floor.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, open web trusses. You can you can because you mix it with TJIs, yeah. Or the open web truss, you probably wouldn't drop in the hole.
SPEAKER_04Depends if it's uh with a rim board. Depends if it's a top cord bearing or a bottom cord. Bottom cord bearing, yeah.
SPEAKER_05So top cord bearing, it would drop into your but then you'd have difficulty getting your 18 inches sometimes, yeah. But anyway, so um, yeah, and then after that, then it's back to standard framing. Uh a peer and beam can be built uh in a standard, pretty basic configuration, 3,000 square foot house with a two or three-car garage in about five hours.
SPEAKER_04So if we've got a bottom bearing um truss, you're gonna have what I would refer to, and you and then it's there's another common name for it I can't think of of, but uh rim joist around that, correct? Yeah, the rim. There's another name for it.
SPEAKER_00Uh I think so.
SPEAKER_05So you're gonna have to do trusses, you can really get away with just uh a top band, uh, but then you end up with uh uh air infiltration issue, it's just as easy to do the rim, yeah. You know. Um and it's a box, basically a really nice looking box sitting on top of a pressure-treated sill plate. Yeah, and then uh uh off you go, and then your your your plywood would expand down to the to the sill plate or a little below, maybe an inch below, and then they would nail out to the sill plate and uh pick up the you know the beams or the trusses as whatever's there.
SPEAKER_04And and typically those were uh in the past they've been vented crawl space, and we've moved a lot to unvented crawl spaces now.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I don't I have moved because of some of the the uh energy efficiencies and the condition crawl space, uh but it just is you know, like within three years ago when I left and the northwest, and I can ask some of my friends, we're still they're still venting crawl spaces, maybe it's a moisture thing, yeah.
SPEAKER_04I know they're working towards we're we're dry here on our the HVAC side of codes, is uh probably eventually gonna see a HVAC plus D added to it pretty soon for dehuminication and a lot. We don't have it here because we're starting to um but they're they're um I think they're moving to having if you've got a sealed crawl space and a sealed attic and your house, mechanical you gotta make it up, maybe even actually having three different uh dehuminication systems or a complete whole house under floor and over ceiling. Um, because yeah, I agree that once once they get you know over 60% humidity, uh you get a real big problem in those crawl spaces.
SPEAKER_05And then also there's something you don't see right here is groundwater. No, no, and then that's an issue of its own self is uh out of nowhere right under your house a spring pops up. So we there also there's a whole uh in digging those types of foundations, there's a whole low point drain system that has to daylight or it has to be sun pumped. Right, and that's a standard as you know, making a pie. Oh, yeah, you know, you wire up, there's gonna be a sun pump there. I need a circuit under there, and if it's not there now, it's gonna be there someday. We're gonna so there's companies just like you have companies here in town that would go through and jack up the foundation, put their uh mitigate all the cracks and stuff. There's a billion companies that would crawl into the mud, get in there, and and and and before you actually build that floor system, you do grade, even though the foundation where it sits is level, you grade the crawl space right before you start bringing the wood in so it rolls to the low point drain just for groundwater coming up that it can all head that direction. Sure. And there's a little flapper valve, you know, typical drain system. And it goes if it can't daylight out, if if you're not like lucky enough to be on a slope, then you're gonna you're gonna put a big bucket, a big hole there, a big sump pump, and you're gonna pump it out.
SPEAKER_04And it's kind of a make sure to test it because another whole subject which is very common everywhere else in the United States, above here except for
SPEAKER_05I mean you can even in some jurisdictions you have to have an alarm that'll be beeping up in the kitchen or something. Hey, the sun pump's on. Oh, great. You know. So uh that's a that was just a little throw me in, but um that's your base, and then again, if it was a real slope lot, you would build stud walls, sometimes double stud walls, depending on the engineering, to get up to the actual floor. You know, sometimes 10, 12 feet high, and then you're at the floor at the back of the house. If the slope goes that way, at the front of the house, you're at grade because the slope falls away. So, or if it's the opposite, then the the that front of the house is standing 12 feet high, is a suspended garage slab. You know, you're actually driving on a wood floor they with light and concrete. Light deck, no, just concrete poured right on car decking, two by sixes, tongue and groove car decking. Probably number decking. Probably number two.
SPEAKER_01Never seen car decking.
SPEAKER_05Oh, you have it's just you have, you just didn't know it. It isn't called car decking for the it probably, I don't know why it's called car decking, but it's just one of those terms. It it, you know, actually, Jordan was asking about after you do this floor system, and I said, well, we use an inch and they'd you know, engineer plywood, but but that's of more recent years. Before that, you would take this really uh number three grade bottom of the barrel two by six tongue and group material, and there was a tool that you have you stab the joist and it would tighten it up, it would pull it tight, and you'd nail it, and you go to the next piece, and you would you can go three one and stagger, it was a whole stagger pattern. You would build a floor system out of junky wood. And then you'd put underlayment on top of it for your vinyls and your carpets, yeah. And and it gave you that smooth back again. And that's what we built like that for years and years and years. And then the inch and an eighth nice plywood shows up, which is underlayment and structure wood all in all one piece, and it's it's a sheet and it goes down nicely. But um, before that it was this car decking. So if you are gonna actually build a suspended garage slab, you go back to that car decking and you put that car decking down and then tar paper and concrete, and you're actually driving on a wood floor 12 feet in the air.
SPEAKER_01That's pretty fun.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Anyways, that's enough of that. Uh now we're in the wall system.
SPEAKER_04So we got we got the walls, we got the below wall system kind of labeled out. Um, and there's a couple things to touch on that that we'll get into here in a little bit when we talk about connection points and nailing patterns and and you know um I guess the um the things that go into making those things hold together, right? So we're gonna start here with slab on grates. The first thing we're putting down is our seal plate. Um in our case, seal plates always treated. Um it varies on the size depending on what kind of wall you're putting up, whether it's two by four or two by six. I think two by six is about as big as it really often gets here. Um what else we have about the seal plate?
SPEAKER_01So how on the attachment to that, I'm I mean, assuming you got J bolts and stuff installed.
SPEAKER_00You can use J bolts, you can use the HD Titan bolts, and epoxy epoxy, and they're actually uh the what the way it was explained to me by Simpson Strong Tie was the way we use wedge anchors for exterior, that's not what they were for. They're not supposed to be used for that, and as a matter of fact, they have a whole new, they've had it for two or three years. Uh they talk about some of the J bolts and start talking about the uh HD Titans as being the ex supposed to be the acceptable engineering for that replacement. Not not wedge. The the wedge anchors came because it's just something they do here as a regional. The wedge anchors don't hold for what's they're everywhere.
SPEAKER_05For Simpson Strong Tie, um depending on where you are in the engineering, requires your epoxy and your pull tests, yep, which is really another whole hassle in itself. So you're talking about the J bolts. Well, every concrete guy forgets some, you know, it's just the way it is. And so there has to be a field, a way in the field you can add them. And um, you know, the the wedge anchors are not a good way to go. No, and so you're talking about uh uh then the new ones are the screw-in guys, which I still don't really know, but it's a mechanical screwed-in affair. And I guess it's okay for a silk plate if you're missing one or two in the field. There is a code on how how many bolts have to be spacing, and if there's a splice in your silk plate, because obviously there's a splice. Yeah, this isn't 60 foot goods here, right? And so somebody inches off the splice, and that's all a code. So in corners, yeah. So the chances of your concrete guy getting it right aren't very good. No, well, and that's in defense of him.
SPEAKER_04What they really do is is they'll go off of their what what six-foot spacing and they'll just plug these things in the concrete ones, what and they never look at the plan. Oh, you got a slider door going over here, you got an in-wall coming up.
SPEAKER_05Uh in the front door, you have to cut them off or something.
SPEAKER_04They just you gotta cut them off, and then you've got to add some by usually the door.
SPEAKER_05But but but if it's a really uh if it's just a standard one in the field where it isn't the a deal buster, but if it's if it's something that really needed to be there for any kind of engineering, any kind of pulling, and they missed it, then you have to have uh uh drill a hole, get special glue, right? Epoxy glue, and then you have to pay somebody to come out and watch it being installed. So they actually take an air nozzle and they clean the hole out and they measure it, then they look at the numbers on the epoxy tubes to make sure that they're not expired. They put it in and they and then they apply this missing piece, and then then after so many days, they come back and they do a pull test.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we don't do that here.
SPEAKER_05I know you know that but that's because this isn't a seismic zone, yeah, exactly. In a seismic zone, when all that stuff counts, yeah, it's a hassle when they forget one. So as a builder, you go through and you spray paint your dots and you make sure they don't miss them because you because you've had to do that whole pull test hassle. It's like you know, learn me once and I'll I'm sure I won't fail us again. Yeah, you know, your building inspector just gives you this little note pull test required. You go, oh no, not a pull test.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so yeah, you go back and you mark them all, but around here that they use we we're seismic zone B, which is basically non-existent.
SPEAKER_04So it'd be it'd be nice to probably get away from our wedge anchors, but again, I don't think we've got to push for it.
SPEAKER_00No, there's it's nobody's nobody's I mean, pressing it. I would rather they didn't use the wedge anchors because to begin with, they're not long enough anyway. And it says in the code book, you gotta have seven and a half inches, and we don't even get close. That's seven and a half inches in the concrete concrete concrete below the inch.
SPEAKER_05So you said below the inch and a half plus the nut, the washer, and all that stuff. You're 12-inch J-bolt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No one's got the drill bit.
SPEAKER_01So I'm assuming a ram set would not uh uh no, no, no.
SPEAKER_04Um, so moving on from our bottom seal plate, other than we wouldn't talk about seal sealer or the adhesive or anything like that. Yeah, I mean we can get in that with an air control layer as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we the it still calls for a uh a separation between the concrete and the bottom plate. So it doesn't, I mean, there's several, there's all kinds of ways to skin that cat. And it's some use a liquid, some use a gasket type material, some use a foam material, which code calls for how often you see it in Amarello. Oh they just is it they just kind of throw something down, it's just a three and a half inch foam piece of junk cheap foam, yeah. Cheap foam. And they don't they they say, well, that that that's part of your air seating. Uh no, it's not, doesn't even get close.
SPEAKER_04It's hard to air seal something that's not perfectly smooth on both sides. Oh, absolutely not.
SPEAKER_05With 60 mile an hour winds, yeah. No, that's the kicker.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no. So anyway, um, we haven't ever seen. I think one of the manufacturers I ran into, uh, I believe is Protectil Wrap that actually builds a true gasket. Yeah. And it's a pretty cool product, but it's not, you know, it's not nickel a foot or two cents a foot.
SPEAKER_04We often use that Lexo product you were talking about. And um a while back, I remember I remember Milwaukee came out with a battery-powered caulking gun. I'm like, man, that's pretty cool. We would spend you know almost 300 bucks on a caulking gun when you go buy you know boxes of caulking gun for 300 bucks. And when we first started moving to uh using Lexel underneath our seal plates, and I went through like three boxes of Lexel in less than 45 minutes. We went and bought it, and yeah, they'll run through it pretty quick, and it it changed the game for us, and so I like it because it's like threefold. You're getting a good capillary seal or capillary break.
SPEAKER_00Um, you're getting a really good air seal, and it's still less expensive than using another product using acoustical sealant, yeah, is another one and less messy, yeah, and less messy, and acoustical sealant works really well and it never dries out, but it's messy and it's expensive.
SPEAKER_04Well, and that's part of so we were talking about how your concrete guy sometimes um doesn't look for your door openings, yeah. And sometimes when they're initially starting out on wall framing, they'll sail plate the whole dang wall and not not cut that because they're they're keeping that wall square, so they're not gonna cut that bottom connection out silplate out. So we've had like an eight-foot slider door where that um that two by six treated plate got Lexelled down to the ground, and I can tell you that stuff sticks really well to a treaty to plate and concrete, to where you've got to have a hammer and a chisel to break the rest of it off. So you do get some hold hold down with that, also. So it's kind of your double whammy, your three three things you're getting out of it. That's one reason why I really like using it.
unknownYeah, right.
SPEAKER_00I like Lexel. I think it's I think Sashco as a whole is a good company, and they build all kinds of products for all different needs. So it's not, I mean, Lexel and Big Stretch are the two biggest things.
SPEAKER_04They got um they've got some roofing stuff through the roof, they've got they started out as a window glazing company, you know. Yeah, anyways. Um, so from the from that seal plate and the attachments, the things that go with it, then we're moving up to our standard stud wall. Right. Um here we're gonna see two by four and two by six spacings are commonly sixteen's, they can be sixteen inches on center from stud to stud, they can be nineteen two on center from stud to stud, they can be twenty-four on center from stud to stud. I mean, like technically they could be twelve inches if you wanted to put more material in the wall. Um or if it's a balloon wall, you might have to. Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say a blue, yeah, yeah. Balloon wall, you could. Um, before we get into the other components of you know, jacks or tremors and and cripples and uh ceiling joists and all that, is there anything else to say about the studs? And we talked about some of the different types we can get.
SPEAKER_00We got T studs. Oh, when yeah, when you're talking about T stud, are you yeah, the thermal brake studs?
SPEAKER_04Um T studs are basically uh, you know, for like a two by six T stud, it's I think it's three inches on or maybe two and a half inches on one side, an inch and a half on the other, and it's connected with like a wooden dowel in between, um, so that when you insulate it looks jicky, but it's not right. It's a super solid wall super solid wall that allows insulation between that framing member. Um it replicates a double stud wall, um, but the ease of installation is like only putting up a single stud wall. A double stud wall would be um technically having two sail plates and two stud walls side by side so that you can stop the the thermal transmission, right? It gives you a thermal break between those two studs.
SPEAKER_05Two by eight bottom plate and stagger stud or stagger stud.
SPEAKER_04Again, two by six, you can stagger stud too. But we we talked about this a couple weeks ago, and it's a great idea, but it's um it's kind of inconvenient because your layout gets more difficult, your windows get more difficult, and you're you're still it's like you're building two walls, right? That's the good thing about the T-studs, is you're getting all those same benefits with one wall, but you're building it like a standard wall, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um so it just it has a a material insulation material in between what's affected.
SPEAKER_04No, it's it's it's like a wood dowel, so that you can get insulation between those two strips.
SPEAKER_00There's no there's yeah, it's not solid. Okay, it's not solid. It's the dowels are in a X pattern.
SPEAKER_05And can you buy them in Lumber Yard?
SPEAKER_00Uh you can order them.
SPEAKER_04You order them from T stud.
SPEAKER_00I don't know.
SPEAKER_04I've never I've not got them. I I would like to try them out. I think it's a great idea.
SPEAKER_00I think you order them direct.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and there may be a supplier that that gets them as well. I don't I'm not real sure. Um, maybe we'll see them down in Austin when we're all at the build show live here in a few weeks.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_04Um so that's I mean, that's oh we've got LSL, LBL studs, um, finger joint. Finger joint is like anytime I get a stud over nine foot, it's commonly a finger joint here. Uh you can spike them on an eight-foot stud if you want to. They're good thing about them is they're straighter and more stable than a standard stud. They're a little bit more than a standard stud. Um LSLs would be the next step up, which is kind of like a uh kind of an OSB looking stud, oriented strand um stud. And then LVL is a laminated veneer, which is more like a plywood type style type of stud. And then both of those, well, the LSL can be treated also. Um LSLs are better on exterior walls, LV are sorry, L LVLs.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04LSLs are better on interior because they don't have if they come into contact with moisture, they're they're almost instantly ruined. Uh, where LVLs can withstand it a little bit more, and then a treated LVL, it can kind of maintain moisture contact and be oh somewhat okay, depending on the circumstance. But those kind of range in price. Standard stud is is you know three bucks, 350, whatever it is right now in the current market. Uh finger joint studs gonna be probably 10 more.
SPEAKER_05Uh uh there's probably a 10 benefit, what you're saying before about how dry it is here and how things twist and so what's the I mean to me, I'm like Joel, that 10% almost is worth it. Well, yeah, it'd be really worth it for sure because by the time you start trying to hack and chop and twist things and get your framework back and take your you know your full day with your 10 foot straight ass, trying to make sure your mirror walls are straight and everything else, it's not worth it.
SPEAKER_04They're good for um vertical load point, but they're not good for horizontal point, right?
SPEAKER_01But no doubt.
SPEAKER_04LVLs and the LSLs are what's better for a it's the the so it and like grade from top to bottom, L VL is the premiere, and then LSL is the step down right below it that's a little bit cheaper, and then you would go to a finger joint, and then you would go to a standard stud. Um, I think most everything here is a standard stud. You'll see some finger joint. You never ever see a LSL or LVLs.
SPEAKER_00I've seen them in I've seen them in person two or three different really large houses here, but they're typically like in a 20-foot entryway with the level five finish or something, yeah. Or a or a big kitchen, specialty walls, specialty walls.
SPEAKER_04I've never not a house, I've never seen them on a kitchen, it makes sense, because you get a perfectly flat wall. Um, but I feel like the better use for them is on something where you're gonna have a little level five finish that's really tall. Um because we if you've got a good cabinet installer and you've got a good countertop installer, that kitchen wall not being perfectly straight can be hidden very, very well between those two, and you're gonna spend a significant amount of money on that kitchen wall. It's true. Um, and then your your the craftsmanship of your cabinet and countertop guy can overcome well.
SPEAKER_00A little bit of bows are gonna be in there anyway. And if you don't like the bow, then slap up some five-eights and move on.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's true. And and that's something we try to do before we ever sheetrock is go through the the house and check for anything that got put in that shouldn't have been there. And I've got a hand planner I've planned down some spots before. Or there's seen the guys do that. There's furring strips that you can put on them before you put drywall up to keep the wall straight. And so we'll usually try to run a six-foot level down, and if it catches, then we're looking at that stud and either replacing it or fixing it. Um anything else on the standard standard studs, standard and not standard studs.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Uh nothing rings the bell.
SPEAKER_04Well, let's let's talk about our openings, right? So the next thing that happens in the wall. Um, then my then I guess we'll just work our way up and go to top plate and joist and yeah, all those things.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, uh, not that this we should really elaborate on it, but there's a whole world of of notching and drilling studs that's not really pertaining to actually building the wall, but that's another thing altogether.
SPEAKER_00I mean, we have issues.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, everybody has issues.
SPEAKER_04Maybe we'll we'll talk about that in our mechanicals and rough ends. What's what's allowable and not? Yeah, actually I'm good with it.
SPEAKER_05We'll call it the hack and chop episode.
SPEAKER_04Because that's that's when it would that's when it would happen. Great name for that hack and chop. That's when that's gonna happen, it's gonna be in the mechanical.
SPEAKER_05So we'll we'll make a note and address it.
SPEAKER_00Mechanical plumbing and electricity.
SPEAKER_05But anyways, openings you have to get in and out, windows and doors. You got a hole in the wall.
SPEAKER_04Yep, gotta make a hole. So, what's the components of those those holes in the wall?
SPEAKER_05Well, there's a there's king studs, there's headers, there's typically different kinds of headers. If we're talking about the advanced framing, we want a box header so we can get some R value and let's do it. So what's the box?
SPEAKER_04What's the box header?
SPEAKER_05Well, it's rather than just putting a if it's a let's say it's a two by four wall, and you know, a lot of the old school ways, you take a three and a half by eight or three and a half by ten solid wood header, and just that's what would be holding up the bearing load from above, whether it's a floor system or rafters, whatever it is. But with a with a uh more advanced thought process, you want to get as much lumber out of the wall as possible with that thermal bridging and try to get more of the energy uh ability.
SPEAKER_04I like the term that you used on that advanced thought process, because that's all it takes. Just a little bit of thinking to do uh something really smart, yeah.
SPEAKER_05And and so you would be so typically a king stud and a trimmer set up, but or or referred to as a jack stud. That's right. A trimmer or jack stud. And then you would just put your solid member flush to the outside, allowing the inside to a cavity to be nice if it's a two by six wall because it's only an inch, inch, and an eighth of solid member on the outside that gives you a lot of space to fill it back up with.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_05It's just it's an engineering issue of what you can use for that span.
SPEAKER_04You can typically, I mean, you can technically do it in a two by four wall. Um, yeah, I mean but you're not gaining very much out of it. And gaining some. You're gaining some. Uh you're gaining what an inch and a half of of insulation is what you're gonna get. And and but and before, if they weren't even using a solid three and a half by eight or whatever lumber piece, they're using two two by sixes. Right. Um, and so you're you're still making a box out of that one two by six that allows you to have that null and void of one two by six worth of insulation.
SPEAKER_05Well, and and just as importantly, again, is the thermal bridging. That that's a a lost thought that we have to keep on reminding everybody what that means. And you know, sure you got a cavity put insulation, that's good, you know.
SPEAKER_04But the you know the thermal brake is what's key. It's key. And it's it's just more effective on a two by six wall where instead of getting an inch and a half of insulation, um, you're now getting what four inches of insulation.
SPEAKER_05Um and if you want to do some some close cell, you know, you're getting some real R value out of it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Uh I mean they you could you could still do the double two by six, but you'd have to stick a piece of half inch XPS or uh poly ISO in between the two. And well, if and there's there and they still accept that.
SPEAKER_04But if you're doing two two well, yeah, on a two by six wall only. But you couldn't do that with a two by four wall.
SPEAKER_00I don't know, I'm seeing seven sixty inch OSB.
SPEAKER_05But you wouldn't get Anything out of it, not really two two by sixes and a half inches is three and a half. All right. And so you're back to my as well. You know, there's nothing there. There's nothing there to do. You haven't even gained anything.
SPEAKER_04So that's kind of the header header topic, right? So we've got engineered lumber that we've seen in headers. We've got um solid sawn doubled up lumber that's in those, and then there's box header styles. Um, something else that's that's even unique is there's header clips that you can use so that you're not even using jacks or trimmers. Uh so you can reduce that amount of wood in the wall on advanced framing. Um but let's let's refer to that again. A king stud's a full-size stud. So your jack or trimmers are what's supporting your headers, those are the shorter ones that your head dies into the headers, and then we have what we first refer to as cripples, which are the really short studs above the headers or below windows, below windows, yeah. Um, and then for the windows, we also have um the rough opening of a window. So we've got a window seal, uh, which is what the window would rest in or on, depending on what what it sits on the cripples, it's right on top of the cripples. Um, and then that's kind of the makeup of a window, and the door is basically the same thing without a window seal and cripples below, right?
SPEAKER_01So the I'm assuming the cripple is there to effectively be load bearing, or is it there to make sure the spacing is accurate?
SPEAKER_04It is so it's load bearing in the fact that you're bringing down that distributed weight on your on your centered path, right? So you're either gonna have 16s, 192s, 24s on your centers, and so you're gonna continue those for two reasons. One, so that your top plate has a continuation down to that load-bearing header. That load bearing header can then span more than your top plate can, and then it will bring down into either the clips onto your jacks or to your kings, or it'll bring down the weight directly onto your jacks or your trimmers.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, um, and it's just layout layout to fill in.
SPEAKER_04That's the that's the other part of it.
SPEAKER_05You got your kings going and your she rust going, it's got to make layout, and so you have to fill in the bottom of the window.
SPEAKER_00So you gotta have to think about that layout because Energy Star is now requesting that we take part of that a lot of those cripples out that we're seeing under three and four foot windows. Well, you don't need them anyway. Yeah, maybe one, maybe one at the most, but we're seeing three in a three-foot window, and it's like where you're coming from and where you're going to.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and you need your four foot, where your split's gonna be, the rest of it, you you know, you got your two, I guess we'll call them mini jacks to hold the sill up. And after that, you don't, you know, depending on how layouts going, you don't need much more.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_05I mean I'll use it. You're done.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so just to clarify these guys just start filling it all up on your on your fillet, you're talking about to clarify, it's where your outside sheathing seams would meet, and you've got to nail the edge of those seams, and so you need a nailing surface, and that's what that cripple would be for. Same thing on the drywall side where two pieces of of drywall meet together, you need to be able to screw those ends in right, just to be part of your layout. So we've got doors and windows kind of covered now. Um, I think we've talked about some of the nuances and the materials and uh the names of those.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, something else on doors that I don't see too much around here, but maybe occasionally uh garage man doors, right? That's that's uh kind of an important thing. Um so what when you're gonna you guys do much way of garage man doors?
SPEAKER_00Garage mandors. That's like uh well, you do in your steel buildings, but we a man door. Okay. Um but I mean the garages here we see a few man doors, but they're they usually go to the backyard. Uh you know, they're it's not we don't see a lot of unattached. There are unattached. I'm not gonna say there's not any unattached garages, but most everything we have is an attached garage.
SPEAKER_04Right. Or it's or if it's not, it's a metal building. Or right, or it's a metal building.
SPEAKER_05But everybody's going in and out of their overhead doors.
SPEAKER_04Which uh well, there's well, there's walk-through doors on them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they call them and doors.
SPEAKER_05So so those are referred to as walk-through doors for the listeners that were if you're gonna walk through a door out of a garage, depending on how they've done the foundation, sure. You might you might be taking that door and putting it right up against non-pressure treated lumber. So there's a little a couple of little framing nuances there you should pay attention to in your opening for your door. So you're supposed to use pressure-treated around any kind of concrete to wood to wood contact, pressure-treated.
SPEAKER_00And why is why is that why not? Because it's six miles away. That's right.
SPEAKER_05I was gonna burn that one, get that one down. Nobody's gonna forget that. So um we got windows and doors, windows and doors, and so now now we need uh either a floor above us or a roof above us.
SPEAKER_04Well, and we we've kind of not talked about the top plate, even though it's a key to have before we really even have windows or doors.
SPEAKER_05We didn't even catch the bottom plate, actually. We did we did talk about the bottom plate. We talked about the pressure treated bottom plate, but we really didn't catch the actual bottom plate of the wall. The layout plate. Yeah, not a big deal. Yeah, so there's always a bottom plate and a top plate, there's a top top plate. Yeah, so that's interlocks the walls together. That's where you're at right now.
SPEAKER_04There's the the bottom plate, the bottom top plate, the top top plate. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, you got double we don't, yeah. We don't, I don't typically see a lot of double bottom plates here.
SPEAKER_05No, no, the only reason you would see one is if for some reason you needed an extra inch and a half because something got screwed up, or floor insulation, yeah, or it just maybe it's just the way it lined up from the garage of the house or something.
SPEAKER_04There's a there's there's no reason for it, or if you wanted to nail down wood surface floor, um, that's another good one where you can do two bottom plates and then you can layer uh two five eighths staggered sheeting sheets on the floor. Uh then you've got a nailing surface for hardware. Oh yeah, or you can do about that.
SPEAKER_05You can do so so two two bottom plates. Oh, and you would toenail your your sheets into the perimeter glue down, glue down, they would they would sit inside that that first bottom plate. That's your second bottom plates for you to nail your base to is that what you're saying? Correct.
SPEAKER_04Okay, correct. And then if you if you did a floating, um you did a floor just like that, but you had like a foam board insulation underneath it, then you would have to put blocking in at the bottom of the wall, but then at the end of the raft doing a raft, yeah. That'd be a raft setup. At that point, you're gonna have um you know, potentially inch and a half foam insulation, closed cell foam insulation below it. And so you have like a R10 below that insulated floor and a nailing surface, um, which is a it's a pretty cool day. It's it's done once around here that I'm aware of. Maybe I know of one for sure.
SPEAKER_00Stephen Basick's house. Yeah, yeah, try it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, not off of VFW Road. Yep. Um, which is bad when they know what house is done like that. Yeah, uh, it's it's hard to convince our clients that it's a good idea because it does cost money, but it is a good idea.
SPEAKER_01I think it's for a radiant floor. I know we don't do much.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely, yeah. So that you would so that's the other thing is our radiant floors, and we'll we'll get into that in the mechanical makeup. I've seen a lot of radiant floors that have zero insulation, and it's like, well, you just that doesn't work, you just wasted 80% of your energy efficiency uh because the ground is absorbing all of your heat at that point. Um, but yes, if you were to do um there's warm board, there's products that are made specifically for it, but if you um uh if you wanted to do something like that, it would work very well with the floating raft type floor insulation system. Um so back to the top plate, the first top plate or the top top plate. Uh the bottom top plate or the top top plate? The bottom top plate first. Um yeah, so the bottom top plate, right? So the first board on top of the studs that's running horizontal.
SPEAKER_05That's the that's actually in conjunction with the layout board on the bottom of the board.
SPEAKER_04That's right. So it's gonna be layout, layout. It's gonna be built at the same time as as that wall.
SPEAKER_05Or it's actually marked at the same time. Marked at the same time, right? Yeah, nail those together with some eights, and then all the marks are the marks, and you just separate them and start throwing pieces in, and that pretty much knows everything's gonna be straight if you screw your wall up.
SPEAKER_04That's right. So and those are those are gonna be split apart, and then those studs are going in between, and then they're getting nailed from the bottom and the top of those plates into the studs. And there's specific nailing patterns depending on the size of lumber that you're using, whether it's two by four, two by six, two by eight, how many nails you've got to have in each one. Um, or if you forget one and have to add one in later, uh, where you're toenailing those in or using brackets for them. Um, but there's not much else to say. The top plate's not treated, it's just standard lumber. Uh, it's shouldn't be a finger joint. Uh, I guess it can be by code on that plate. There's no no there's nothing against it, it's probably not a great idea.
SPEAKER_05It wouldn't be very easy to deal with because it came apart on you.
SPEAKER_04Well, that's the thing is if you're shooting nails into it horizontally and you're having to worry about those finger joint joints and blowing apart. Right, yeah, that wouldn't be very funny. It's not a great idea to have them. Oh, I have seen it there before. Um, houses I've walked through um of some other builders here in Amarillo. Um, but then we've got then we've got our top top plate. Joel, you want to talk about the wall connections that makes them why we've got to have it.
SPEAKER_05Well, if you have walls intersecting with walls, how do they connect? You know, I mean, you know, sure you have ladder framing if you have a T section, so that wall is going to connect, but at the top, everything has to interlock. So that's what the top top plate does. So what you know, one wall coming this direction, that top plate would extend an additional three and a half or five and a half over the outside wall, and then you would be able to connect it that way along with the T.
SPEAKER_00And 24 inches is minimum. Uh for the minimum.
SPEAKER_05Oh, for the for the leg laying it like laying it out. Right, right. Yep. So that so if you're intersecting walls, but so between that and ladder framing on an intersecting wall, it's pretty steady, you know, connected. Pretty connected.
SPEAKER_00Of course, in the advanced framing, you could still use one top plate, single top use the mat and use metal pies, and then you have to stack your rafters on top of the studs.
SPEAKER_04Yep. That is that that's not worth the hassle.
SPEAKER_00Well, the production framers, it is. I was thinking to say I see lots of production guys do it that way.
SPEAKER_04So it it makes their layout actually easy because they're doing 24s on 24s and stacked. Even if they're not great, even if they're not great, don't it's because they're not, they're not it's it's they're gonna see they're getting away with a really easy layout. It's 24s on 24s, minimal lumber, and they're stacking a roof rafter right on top of that wall cramming, almost dead. And um, they just keep going, and it and then they're using uh and they're doing it with two by fours, it's two by fours and and six joists, but it it it meets code. Yep. Um, the only good thing about it is they do have minimal thermal thermal um what am I trying to say? Not break, but um bridge. They've got minimal thermal bridge on it, which is good for them, and that that's how they advertise it.
SPEAKER_05Well, it costs less. The walls are wavy.
SPEAKER_04The walls are wavy, the walls are not as strong, they're not tied together as well, but they don't have thermal bridging. Um, there's some there's some things to it, and it makes percent in production.
SPEAKER_05I guess if we're going small little footprints, it'd probably be a good way to go.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it makes sense in production. Yeah, I mean, if you're doing um 500 houses and yeah, you're saving 40 studs a piece, 50 studs apiece. That's right. At the end of the day, that would be a lot more money than I make every year. So yeah, I can see that.
SPEAKER_05I get it.
SPEAKER_04Um, it's it's a game of numbers at the end of the day, and that number works for them.
SPEAKER_05So they only get a box and a half of nails, and when they're out, they're out. You know.
SPEAKER_04Um, so we've got now we've got the walls built up, we've got openings in the walls.
SPEAKER_00Um, we're moving on to um Do you have your framers add the sheathing, exterior sheathing before they raise them walls? Or do you just or does it depend?
SPEAKER_04It depends. So if if I'm gonna do a a floor truss, at that point I would for overlapping on concrete, no, I don't. Um if I've got a if I've got a a banjoist, then it makes sense for me. Um and they'll toenail that two by four into the the decking and then use that to assist them to raise that wall up or second story, then yeah, it also kind of can make some sense sometimes. Um but if it's just on the concrete, now they're sanding those up that they're squaring it off, they're getting it everything true up, and then they're applying that on the outside.
SPEAKER_00OSB, zip, whatever.
SPEAKER_04Never OSB, always, always uh zip.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. I've seen Joel do a couple of things that shock me on the way it worked.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah. Well, we can get into that, but um yeah, Sigma was a really beautiful install and Tamlin paper, just house wrap.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's not typical house wrap. No, I was totally blown away by what it was.
SPEAKER_04I would I would get away from zip, but if I got away from zip, it's typically to move to more to products that are more expensive. They're more robot robust, and I would I would enjoy using them, but it would on my end would cost more money, and that would look like um some sort of pill and stick or a or a liquid flash. Yeah, I'd be happy doing either one of those. Um I get away from I got away from house wrap because there's not many people that detail it correctly. And I I'm also one that I never really got super comfortable with it because I was I moved away from it quickly. Zip's been around for as long as I've been doing exterior walls, so it's like I why am I why am I gonna go learn something that I feel like is aging out when this has been proven it works? So even my even my my experience as a builder, it's like I don't know that I could detail one good enough that I would be real happy with it, so I'm not gonna ask somebody else to do it.
SPEAKER_00You did have a framer that did understand it.
SPEAKER_05We detailed it. It looked right, it was I have a video I could show you, and it would stand up anywhere as this is the best install you've ever seen.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_05I agree that I almost didn't want to cover it up.
SPEAKER_04There's people that can do it, yeah. There's people that can do it, and that's that's fine. And it's it's cost effective and it's effective.
SPEAKER_05But the thing with the zip is it's I want to say somewhat territorial, but you just all are all over the United States. So you so depending, I mean, if you're gonna stay here and you're gonna build and it's a system that's working for you, that's great. Don't change, you know. But I mean, I come from a territory where rain screen and wrap was the thing.
SPEAKER_04Now rain screen's code, you know. You have to you are supposed in what you are supposed to be doing a rain screen, a 3/8 inch rain screen anywhere that we do it. Um now with our cladding with being brick, right? It's a little bit different. But all these houses that you're seeing siding, you're seeing siding or ethos or stucco or any of that, yeah, it's should be but you can actually get away with it with the wrap. A little some of the wraps you can.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, they have it built into it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, some of them do. Uh got kind of like a dimple mat.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, which is it's kind of cute.
SPEAKER_04But it works, it works, it works, it works, it works, it's been been proven, and it provides a drainage plane and an air path for it to dry out. That's the whole goal of a rain screen. Um, top top plate. We're done with top plate, we're moving on to ceiling joist. Ceiling joist. Oh, ceiling joists here we go. Ceiling joist. So ceiling joist. Um, that's typically gonna be solid sawn lumber unless we're doing something specific like a trade ceiling, uh, maybe a vaulted ceiling that's gonna require trusses that have their built-in. Well, we'll get the trusses here in just so we're gonna be its own thing. We're on hand cut.
SPEAKER_05Is it gonna be a three-part deal?
SPEAKER_04That's how we gotta wrap a lot of it real real quick in the next 10 minutes.
SPEAKER_05So we're um rafters, collar ties, uh, purlins, and we're done.
SPEAKER_04And we're done. Yeah, and decking, sheathing, um, ceiling joists on solid sawn lumber. It's uh sometimes you'll see L VLs on big spans for um special special ceilings. Uh, and those those are all gonna be based upon the width that they're spanning, whether you can get away with two by six, two by eight, two by twelve, you know, three LVLs that are 16s, whatever it is, that depends on the span.
SPEAKER_01That's a heavy beam.
SPEAKER_04Um, the loads that you're you're trying to carry. Uh going up from from that, we've got all of our rafters, uh, bridges, hips, valleys, um, to make up our roof section. And then oops. What's up?
SPEAKER_05We're we're we forgot to do portal framing.
SPEAKER_04Well, this we might have a part three on this.
SPEAKER_05Okay, I mean, because we were talking about holes in the wall, we got indoors.
SPEAKER_04You're right, portal framing is important. It is real important.
SPEAKER_05We never got our cars in the garage.
SPEAKER_04And let's back up. Let's go to let's go to portal framing because I feel like that's probably the most out of all the framing, probably the most under underappreciated. It's probably not understood here very well. It's not, no, no, we're still fighting it. So let's let's talk about it. Yeah, portal framing. What's explain portal framing? What's the idea of it? What is it?
SPEAKER_05Well, you have a big giant hole in the wall now. I mean, we're what's that?
SPEAKER_04What's it for? The big giant hole.
SPEAKER_05Well, it's for your cars, and what else? Um, it could be for anything, really. What why does it have to be for cars?
SPEAKER_04It doesn't have to be for cars, but it's specifically large openings that we have an exterior wall right.
SPEAKER_01It's a big panel slider, yes.
SPEAKER_05Oh, yeah. So we've been talking about doors and windows, but uh, like I'm doing this next one. I'm doing these big quad sliders. Yep, you know, so that's the that's a portal. That's a 12-foot hole. Yeah, you know, so so so I guess what what's the number that we have to jump into portal? 11 and a half, anything over eleven and a half?
SPEAKER_04Okay, so uh any hor any hole that the horizontal span is over eleven and a half feet, it that's when it moves into portal framing.
SPEAKER_05And so a lot of things come to play. You're not gonna do box headers, nope, nope. You you're gonna um think more commercially, I guess. And a portal um is exactly what it sounds like. It's a big hole.
SPEAKER_01So would you hole? We've been talking a lot about LVLs. That's something where you could get an LVL engineered or be told.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you know, um, or you can do steel.
SPEAKER_01That's what I was gonna ask you.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I did steel on the last one. It was uh you know, steel steel's a good way to go.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and technically, if you did steel, you you you could have an insulated header at that point.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I did I beam from both sides. Yeah, I did I beam on the last one. That worked out really good. But um, let's talk, let's keep it simple and talk about the garage door opening because everybody's got garage door opening, right? Right, and um most of them are I guess uh some are nine nine foot doors, but like a double door, yeah, 18 or 16 foot door without special hold downs on it. Yeah, but it seems to me that even if you were gonna do um a double or a triple car garage, you you would portal the whole thing, you know, uh end to end.
SPEAKER_04So plus it's staggered, yeah.
SPEAKER_05And and so at the outsides of the garage little wings, you got little wing walls. Let's just take a double garage door, make it easy, and you got the little three-turn wings. Now, the those little concrete wings, there's a bunch of different engineering that goes into those, not so much with slab on grade, and not so much with the seismic zone that we're in, but those units coming up to hold the opening would end up being structurally all connected as a U-shaped item. That's an easy way to put. I mean, there's more than that meets the eye on that one, but um just gotta tell you. Yeah, so um, so you basically need to connect those so they don't have any kind of shear, any kind of rocking. That's kind of the important thing. Yep, that opening, and then there's some nailing patterns of the the wall sheeting that go with it, bolt down of those little wing walls, some hardware where the wing walls meet this LVL system, and all those incorporate into this portal framing. Okay, and and and the with the houses that we see commonly now the holes are getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they are. They are, yeah, they are.
SPEAKER_05I just that's 20 foot holes is an uncommon.
SPEAKER_04Let's pick up a little bit. I'll push your back, and that was a quick one.
SPEAKER_00Let's talk about um the sheeting patterns that we've got to have on the nailing pattern, six and twelves, three and three and six, and uh the nailing pattern on the face is three inches on center, three inches on the on the edges as well on the exterior.
SPEAKER_05So they're talking about the nails every three inches, you want to see a nail.
SPEAKER_04Yep, you know, which we get away with with staples around here. Um, we moved to galvanize ring shank, and I can tell you when you put a piece of sheathing up against a framing minor member and you're looking at it from the outside, put a staple in there, and that sheathing doesn't really move. You put a ring shank galvanized in it, it moves, it sucks that up real tight. And so when you look at that and and witness that action happening, there's no doubt that you're getting way more hold durability and airtightness out of a ring shank. Now than you would be a staple.
SPEAKER_05Does the code allow staples? Yeah, you do. It does. I don't know if I've done a bunch of staples.
SPEAKER_00It it again, you still gotta remember that the code is still minimum.
SPEAKER_04Right. So it's the absolute worst that you can do.
SPEAKER_01Right to legally be told a home code.
SPEAKER_04Exactly. Um okay, so then let's move on to the the hardware, the straps that we've got to have. Go ahead and talk about those.
SPEAKER_05The Simpson strapping that goes across the tops.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it ties in. So it ties in the header to the supporting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you gotta go to the top plate. If it has a double top plate, it has to go to the very top plate, and then it needs to come down past if you're using LVLs at least six inches below that LVL to your to your stud. To the stud. And it's gotta be nailed. There's got to be a nail in every hole. And then hold downs. We don't see a lot of hold downs here.
SPEAKER_04So that's something I think is probably coming because I know down south there. We brought this up before. They're embedding whole hold downs into that concrete as like a strap that's buried into that concrete. Yeah, it's a stab. It's a right now.
SPEAKER_00They can use a J-bolt, they can use two J bolts with a two by two square washer. And then uh a two by two square washer and then a uh washer with a nut. Okay, and tighten it down. That'll meet the minimum.
SPEAKER_04So we're we're gonna we're gonna talk about this for a second. We live in an area that is prone to hot winds and tornadoes, and the first thing that blows in is the garage door. And what happens is it causes uplift on that house.
SPEAKER_00Correct.
SPEAKER_04So when you're tying your bottom plate in with a bolt to the concrete, your bottom plate's not going anywhere. But what's tied in to that bottom plate? Well, it's the studs. How are those tied in with an upside-down nail going into that bottom plate? So all you have is a uh you know, a one-three-one vertical shaft that's nailed into the bottom of that stud with no ridges, no ring shank, it's just it's just a framing nail. Yeah, and so we've got our top plate strapped in with our header to the to the stud. Right. The weak connection there is that at the bottom, is at the bottom to that bottom.
SPEAKER_05So if you want to be a good builder, go buy yourself a box of A35s, yeah, have them in your truck, and they toss six of them on each side and say, guys, I want these nailed at the bottom. Yep, bottom plate to stud, you know, and they cost you 50 cents apiece.
SPEAKER_04So that's the that's the easy universal L bracket. That's the easy way to do it. But I think code's probably gonna move to embedding that concrete on the on the either embedding it or using a shoe.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, and if they embed it like an HTT with a stab, then you're gonna have to dig a footing. I mean, you're gonna have to have to have those put into the footing 24 inches long before they pour that slab, so they'll just stick it out for them to attach this HTT that you're talking about that might show up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but I'm seeing no, I'm seeing strapping done with one of our builders that still meets the minimum code that they're wet set.
SPEAKER_05No, but I'm saying when it gets to the point where they start changing that up a little bit, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I I think you guys are right, it'll change.
SPEAKER_05I mean, they do make a strap that doesn't take the bolt, it's actually a flat strap that's kind of a kick bend, and it kind of goes in to the concrete footing, and then they kind of bend it out of the way while they're doing a bunch of different stuff, and then it comes back up and gets nailed in.
SPEAKER_04So I've seen them where um on a garage wall, that that garage door wall is not sitting on the it's not sitting on the foundation, right? It's sitting on basically a stem wall that a little mini stem wall. Yeah, so I've seen it where they've had embeds that go wet set into that that stem wall, right? And then once it dries, they bend them over, they frame on top of it, then they bend them back up, they nail them on top of the sheeting, and then they yep, right. So that's pretty common too. That's another way of doing that. That's inexpensive, it's just yeah, you just need two on each wing. You just gotta remember to do it.
SPEAKER_05That's you just need two on each wing, yeah. You know, it's a good thing.
SPEAKER_04And that's a that's a little better than just strapping from the bottom plate to the stud because then you can strap the bottom plate also to the concrete, and all that's being held in with the concrete.
SPEAKER_05But you know, when you're doing those, you're talking about this embedments, you need more than two feet, right? Because those embedments, the but when you bend them up, they're nailing to two studs, not one stud. So there's two studs there, and then the other size is two studs there at the corner, and that doesn't all fit in two feet. No, right. So you need you know 30 inches to pull off a decent wing wall, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, just for the sake of uh I think 16 inches is minimum here for it, but well, the way we're doing them here, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, but before you start doing embedment, you need a 30-inch wing wall to play the game right.
SPEAKER_04Um, so that's why I wanted to go back into the portal framing because there's a lot of nuances in there. Some of it we're not doing, we're not aware of. Um, we get by with kind of the minimum, and there's some things coming at us that that are probably going to change the way we're we're doing it. It's it should because that's really just well. What happens when we get that up lit uplift is it it separates from that bottom plate, and then the house is basically moved off of its foundation. That's where the big issue is. If these components are in place, yeah, your garage door might blow in, could have some sheathing damage and roof damage, but the likelihood of that lifting that holes are gonna stay there.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, you can go right to the Simpson catalog and you can look right as a portal framing, and they they'll lay it right out for you.
SPEAKER_04It's like Simpson rents the code or something.
SPEAKER_05Uh I think pretty much that I think that they're they're good, they're doing a good job of it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think they got they have a good thought process, and they obviously want to sell products, so they engineer the product that works, they'll stick it in the hole.
SPEAKER_04It's a great brand. We're open for them to uh sponsor the show. Simpson, we're here Simpson and Lexo. Yeah, you know, you know what's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_05We enjoy your products, and if you'd like to you want to give you your dress up, then the next week we'll have Simpson pins.
SPEAKER_04Um well, I'll tell you what, we hadn't really got to the roof framing yet, right? We hadn't got the hand cut, we hadn't got to uh we can do part three. Let's look at doing let's another cliffhanger. It's technically it's technically not wall assembly. Yeah, no, it is not, but and then the code book is separate. So you know what? We're uh we're concluding wall assembly on this one, and then we'll we'll talk about the roof on um our following podcast. No, it wasn't. Uh, there's a lot that goes into roof as well, a lot of nuances, a lot of things that that aren't happening, and things that are happening that shouldn't be. Um and that's the whole point of we want to get this out so people can listen to it, understand the components, and what they should be expecting and looking for, or how they should be trying to build. Um that's that's what we were trying to do here, I think, overall. So yeah, let's slow down, we'll spend some time on the roofing section separate from the wall assembly. But I think we covered the wall assembly pretty well.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think so. We might have a couple little trinkets we can pick up next time if we forgot something, but for the most part, I think it's there. We took we we talked about Wayne.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we didn't get much into wall sheeting, which is part of the wall assembly, but we might take it for decking and wall sheet sheeting.
SPEAKER_05She was speaking about sheeting, you know, when you're doing that portal framing, if you have a split in your sheeting, it needs to be blocked, yeah. And there again, your three-inch nailing on that double blocked, um, whatever a little detail on that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, probably not uh ideal spot to split the sheath on your wing walls. Uh no, yeah.
SPEAKER_05But you don't you don't have a choice sometimes. And then uh there is another little engineering um formula depending on how how we don't do it here, but when you start getting into stem walls and you start getting an engineered portal framing, depending on how wide it is, that stem wall that we see that little two or three-inch stem wall you're referring to, it might come up three feet.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_05And then you'll just sheet over it and it will kind of disappear. But and in doing that, there's a whole little program to get your garage wrap attached a certain way, otherwise, you've got concrete hanging out, and there again it's not pressure treated. And so if that ever does come around, that's a is a I don't until we I think until our seismic changes, you won't see and I don't I don't think we'll ever see that. It's interesting because seismic, I mean, the first thing you said before we were on air is well, geez, you're you're sitting in tornado alley, right? Don't you think there should be a blend between seismic and tornado alley?
SPEAKER_00I I'm not disagreeing with that at all.
SPEAKER_05Some of the practices that I've done in seismic, I'm feeling now after listening to what happens around here, what you're all talking about, is you ought to be practicing some of it.
SPEAKER_00It's the same, it's almost some of the things. And there's and there are uh I think Fortress is one of them where they talk about a fortified roof program. And that's and that has nothing to do with seismic here, but it has a lot to do with wind. A bit of it, yeah. Tornado and wind and keeping that roof attached.
SPEAKER_04And I know the the only one I even know of, um, which I think is partnered with Fortified is their the whole zip system family. Yeah. Um, which I know you I mean, once you get a fortified roof, you can get insurance discounts and and things like that as well. Um I think the it should be if it's not realized by our realtors here, the house should be valued uh at a higher it should reach a higher value with that certification, but it is expensive. It is expensive. Um we'll get into that on the next one, I guess. Cool. Anything else we want to touch on? Joel, when you were building uh over on the coast, did you guys ever have anything to do with like breakaway walls, or is that more of an east coast hurricane deal? Or I don't know anything about breakaway walls.
SPEAKER_00Florida's probably Florida's got a bunch of them where there's Mississippi Valley's got some.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, if like tide comes in, floods the house, it's designed to in a simple context. It's designed that a section of that wall would would basically fall out so that water can flow through the house instead of carrying the whole house away or or breaking the whole house down. I didn't know if that was something that y'all did on the coast over there.
SPEAKER_05No, there's I think it wasn't just till recently. I even saw these tsunami signs finally show up, but we didn't really have a big flood thing. And we I was pretty far in from the coast anyway, across the mountain range, so I wasn't gonna get any well, any flooding. But there was a real flooding. Yeah, I mean, there was flooding, and and we, you know, houses would be have drainage and stilts in here or there you would see in a certain little area, a little creek area that's you know prone to flooding, you know. Uh I did think one more thing on the on the portal framing. Um maybe use them once or twice, but Simpson makes we're talking about Simpson.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, they're portal frame system.
SPEAKER_05They make a portal frame system. Yep, it's expensive, but it's pretty cool. So those wing walls we're talking about, kind of putting everything together. You actually get you you order a section of wall framing, maybe and they come from California. Imagine that, right? Yeah, and then you just bolt it in place, bolt it in place, and it is portal framed nice, that's pretty slick, nice setup, but um, you will never see those here.
SPEAKER_04Nope. Not that uh now we want the maybe you maybe you're since Robert mentioned they came from California, we really probably won't see them.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's I've only seen one set since I've been inspecting in it. That's where you got them. They came from a California warehouse.
SPEAKER_04Before we completely wrap up, there's a couple things we want to plug. Uh, we've got a home that was built by the Builder Association that we're now raffling off.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_04So tickets are $500 a piece. Yep. There's a maximum of $2,400. Um, and I don't know how I'm I'm just talking here. I don't know if we can even say this or not, but the minimum we've got to get to, I think, is $1,200 before they before they sell that. So there's there's even a possibility of a one in $1,200 chance of winning that house. Um out in Pinnacle. Yeah, over in Pinnacle. However, we have to say one in 2400 um is the actual chances of it. It's in the pinnacle neighborhood. It's a four-bedroom. Is this right? Four bedroom. Anybody know that's three bad?
SPEAKER_052500 or 2600 foot.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's a really nice it's a nice house. Really nice house.
SPEAKER_05All landscaped, it's uh um ready to go.
SPEAKER_04It is, it's a good good news um upcoming neighborhood that's um it's uh K through 12 walking distance, uh all in uh all in that neighborhood.
SPEAKER_05I think there's 12 phases all together, and this is phase one, so you you can get in that house well for 500 bucks for 500 bucks anyway, and um you know historically houses just increase in value, so uh it could be uh maybe we're 600 bucks next year.
SPEAKER_04Um yeah, so if you guys are interested in that, get a hold of anybody in the builder association or go online, go online, Facebook, uh yeah, buy a ticket. Yeah, absolutely buy a ticket. We still have another house that that is for sale, and it's on the MLS listing. Uh so if that's something that you guys want to look at, take a look at that. Um, we're done with luncheons for this year. We had our last one last week, this week. Uh so the next one will be in January. Yeah. Um, we'll have uh what else we got? We got a couple events coming up.
SPEAKER_01Other banquets coming up in November.
SPEAKER_04Builder Association Banquet, new installation banquets coming up November 15th.
SPEAKER_05You need a ticket for that banquet, Jordan. We'll buy you one for your dinner.
SPEAKER_04Well, I don't know about mine the banquet, but we we can give some hats out, maybe. Yeah, there you go.
SPEAKER_05If Simpson wants to sponsor us, we got pens and paper coming.
SPEAKER_04Simpson and Sashko. If you guys are out there listening, we'd be happy to have you as a sponsor. Um we are we are looking for sponsors still to I'll I'll be seeing somebody you might. Yeah, so we'll I know the three of us are uh going to the build show live here in a couple weeks, and we'll get to see a lot of those a lot of those sponsors. We're looking at it.
SPEAKER_05We're gonna have some free hats, no doubt. I'll be wearing hats.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um they'll be free, but they won't. I don't know if we'll be able to get it.
SPEAKER_05Everything's really free.
SPEAKER_04Depends. Yeah. Um anything else, guys, before we wrap it up?
SPEAKER_00Uh we talked about spray foam earlier today, about the wall up in the attic, that separation wall from the garage side to the condition side. Doing plastic or landscape netting netting, whatever, and spraying against it. Uh, I just thing of the past. It's gonna be the thing of the past. Uh the Spray Foam Manufacturers Association has said absolutely not, but we want to see it encapsulated. So you're gonna have to run a two by four, two by six wall, whatever you're doing, and sheetrock one side, OSB the other, or whatever you choose to put up there like that. So I that's a big change. Yeah, it's it's it's a big change for fire and ignition barrier. It's not a big cost, but it's yeah, that's what you told me is is the cost of it.
SPEAKER_04That's something that we've done for a while is carry the zip up into the attic space. Yeah, tape that, use it as the primary air seal. So try not to use foam for air seal. I use it as an addition to, but not the primary, right? So I mean it it even using zip and not drywall, it it is it's relatively low, low cost because it's not that much material, it's just the thought of doing it.
SPEAKER_00Um and making sure they get it done.
SPEAKER_04You don't want to wait. I can tell you now, you don't want to wait until the house is framed and then try to do it because chances are you're gonna have um 16-inch pieces, you're gonna have purlins and kickers coming down in the wrong spot that make it really hard to do. So if you can if you can basically carry that wall up before you even get the roof framing on, it does make it a little bit easier. Um that's just kind of a a a pro tip, I guess. Been there, done that, had to cut around too much.
SPEAKER_05Exactly right.
SPEAKER_04Then you got $400 worth of tape tape in the nails, and yeah, you got then you gotta follow anyway.
SPEAKER_00There's all kinds of changes occurring, so we'll kind of visit about some more of this stuff as we move forward.
SPEAKER_04It's good, and uh it's good that we got you on our side giving us the insights and what's to be coming.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, unfortunately, I know you're wearing your official energy ambassador t shirt.
SPEAKER_04No, no, no.
SPEAKER_05They haven't sent it to me yet. So that's okay.
SPEAKER_04Joel, you got anything else?
SPEAKER_05No, I think that's a wrap. That's a wrap, Ben. All good. I think it's a rap. All good, that's wrap. I think that's a house wrapped. Sorry.
SPEAKER_04All right, until next time. Thanks for joining us with uh TPBA Builder Talk Podcast. Um, next next podcast we'll be bringing up the roof assemblies. Um, feel free to reach out for sponsorships or if you'd like to be a guest on the show. Thanks for joining us. Thank you. Later.
SPEAKER_01Later.