WRB's

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Texas Panhandle Builders Association TPBA Builder Talk Podcast, where we'll bring you expert advice from the heart of Amarella Building community. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting in the trade, our goal is to keep you informed on the ever-evolving building codes, share best practices, and help you excel in your craft. From innovative design ideas to smart material selections and everything in between, we're here to support you in every aspect of home building. Each episode, we'll dive into the topics that matter most to builders, contractors, and industry professionals, ensuring that you stay ahead of the curve in this rapidly changing landscape. Our discussions are shaped by the experiences and knowledges of our hosts and guests, providing you valuable perspectives that you can apply directly to your work. The views and the opinions expressed are those of the host and the guests that may not always reflect the most up-to-date or accurate information. Let's build something great together, one conversation at a time. Welcome back to the TPBA Builder Talk Podcast. I'm your host, Jordan Dugan, along with my co-host Ben Hardesty, Robert Downing. We're happy to be back with another episode. We're gonna be talking about uh WRBs today. Uh so WRBs, weather resistant barriers. But before we do, I want to thank our our podcast sponsor, uh, Huber Engineered Woods. Uh it's a it's a sponsor that we're proud to have. Um I've happily used their products before and and love the outcome of it, their product support. Uh and it's an integral system that works together really well um and and solves a lot of a lot of the problems that we have in construction. So thanks, Huber, for for being the podcast sponsor. Um and before we get started, I also want to talk about the home and garden show that we have coming up.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Yeah, we do.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Uh it's the Builder Association Home and Garden. Uh, it's gonna be March 29th and 30th at the Amaryllis Civic Center. And we've got some some really cool updates coming on this one this year. Um, we're gonna have an education stage, which is part of our committee. Um we're gonna be bringing up uh questions with uh industry professionals. It's gonna be uh moderated 20-minute segments. Um, we're gonna have, I think we've got uh electrician, we've got inspectors, we've got home builders, we've got remodelers, we've got uh insurance companies where we're gonna talk about everything related back to the home builder. Um, maybe questions that you should ask if you're going through that process or working with those professionals. So I think that'll be a really good insight. We're gonna be recording a live podcast there as well. I'm excited about doing that. Yep, it'll be fun. It'll be fun. We'll have that where you can obviously go back and listen to it later, but uh we'll have that over the speakers there on stage, and so you can listen to it. We've also got a uh kids corner there sponsored by Home Depot. So they're gonna be bringing their their kids' crafts in. I'm not sure what the actual craft is, but uh it's usually they're always fun to do. They are. It's fun for the adults and the kids to do together.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Um, and so now it's not just walk in and you know walk around a couple of booths and leave. We actually have some really fun activities to keep people engaged and and offer some entertainment there for them. I'm really looking forward to uh um being a part of that this year. So that's kind of our our plugs for the day. We get back onto the podcast, WRBs.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

WRBs. All right, gotta have them.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Uh and it's it's maybe not the most important, but it is up there with um structural integrity and and and uh the components of a building. This is the thing that's gonna make it actually last and have durability and um uh yeah, it's one of the most important features of the building.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

It's gonna have a huge impact on the comfort of the home as well. Oh, absolutely, it does.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

Um, you know, and when you think about the four things that you're trying to maintain with a house, whether it whether it be water or air or heat or cold or you know, we you you try, some people try and fail at it, but some people try and make it work, uh, trying to keep in the wintertime your heat on the inside of the house and keep it from going out, and the same in the summertime trying to keep your home cooler by keeping the heat on the outside. And by the way, that's the second law of thermodynamics, is exactly what that is. And I don't think there's a lot of folks that really understand that. And um, I think to understand and make building science work, if you understand that basic second law of thermodynamics, it makes everything much simpler. And you know, his comment a while ago, we were talking about it, and he says, Well, can you make a house too tight? That's a misconception.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

So, and you will hear the building science guys. I teach it at Amarillo College. You build tight, you ventilate right, and when we all get on board with that, it's gonna make an enormous difference in how much a building consumes.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

And can withstand, and can withstand, absolutely, as well as not um this goes in with can the consumption of it, but the comfort level as well.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Yes, absolutely. Um, I didn't mean to get off totally down the top, but it's it's still part of it.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

To kind of rain us back in a little bit, I know I think we've brought this up before. We've got four control layers that you mentioned, yep. And so in the order of importance, right? We've got we've got water, yep, we've got air, we've got vapor, and then we've got thermal. Thermal, yep. And and the reason we're bringing these up on our WRB is because there are products in the WRB classification that can do all of those in one foul swoop. So um the other part you bring up the airtightness of because we're talking about maybe having more than one control layer in this WRB, it's not just the water control layer, and oftentimes um the airtightness plays in that as well. And so this is a this would be the approach to how you make that building airtight. Um, and and I guess we can get into some of the benefits of what that's gonna be a little bit on, but um I guess let's let's get to the the basics of it. WRB. What a lot of people think that the weather resistant barrier is often the shingle or the brick or the cladding. Nope. Um that's that's not what that is. That's technically your second secondary water control layer. Yep, your primary water control layer is going to be that sheathing.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

And we can talk about we probably ought to start at roofs first. And sure, and you know, we typically see 716s OSB here. The one thing we don't do a lot of that we probably should be doing with that 716 OSB is we probably should be taping the seams. And I you know, some people go, well, that's just a waste of time and money. Really? Uh, and then you're putting on the uh underlayment, yeah. The underlayment at that point, whether it be whatever brand you choose, um that's not just there so that when we have a real bad hailstorm, it makes it easier to get those shingles off. That's not what an underlayment's for.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

There's a lot of people think that's what it's so there's I've had an interesting conversation. Um, you know, we we started using the zip system on our roof uh probably four years ago. And uh it's new to our area, so of course I got some kickbacks off of it, and you know, a lot of the the common um practice? Well, no, the the the the common um I guess confrontation really that I had over it is they would say, Well, your shingle manufacturer's not going to warranty that anymore. And I would say, well, why? And they said, Well, you're you're putting an underlayment on it as well. I said, Yeah, I put an underlayment on it also. Uh, I put an underlayment on it just for the reason that you talked about because there is a built-in uh zip system has it built in, right? I put it on there so that when they do re-roof that house, they're not tearing up the existing zip system sheathing. True, and it does make it easier, it's not required. But they say, Well, you're putting on two per two vapor barriers. Well, first of all, zip system is not a vapor barrier, it's a vapor control layer, it's a vapor control layer, it is permeable, and so is that underlayment. It is not a vapor barrier, it is a vapor control layer. Now, they do make some of that are, but most synthetics that we're getting are vapor permeable.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

And people do not understand the classifications of vapor barriers that are permal permeable, non-permeable, sure, and semi. Sure. And zip is a class two barrier. That's what it is. It's not any more than that, it's not any less than that, and it does a good job. But they don't understand. We were just talking about water a while ago. Water comes three ways. It comes as a liquid, it comes as a solid when we have a freeze, and then it comes as vapor. And a barrier that might do really well for solid or for uh liquid might not do very good as a vapor. Correct. And it because it's two different animals, yeah, and you're trying to do two different things. Zip does a pretty good job.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Uh LP was the other one we yeah, LP weather logic, which is um it's it's LP's version of zip, uh zip system. So, what zip is if if um everybody's seen it around here, I know it's the green panels or the blue panels in LP's LP's words, but it is a OSB, um, their proprietary version, so it's not necessarily a commodity OSB that has a facer directly applied to it from the factory, and that face, um, that's that waterproof layer. So OSB, uh, if you're using Osb decking on a roof, that roofing underlayment is the the water control layer. Right, it's the it's the WRB because Osb doesn't respond well to water, um, swells up, um, and then you've got the uh it actually will intake bulk water, it'll hold bulk water, yep.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Um, and then disintegrate.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Yeah, yeah, and then it swells up OSB and your seams start coming apart, and everybody goes, Where'd this water come from?

SPEAKER_00 11:25

And you've got mold and deterioration issues on that, so that's why they put the facer on their OSB, so it makes that side of that OSB 100% waterproof. Um, and LPs does the same thing. If you are using that OSB, you're putting on underlayment. That underlayment is waterproof, however, it's not a vapor barrier. Most people use the term barrier on vapor almost always, right? And they might be talking about you know, vapor open, semi-open, or closed, but they call it a barrier, and it's a vapor control layer. And those terms barrier is not the right term, it's not those terms often get um switched back and forth, and they really don't need to be when we're talking about these. So, to go back to answer those questions when people say, Well, you're putting down two vapor barriers. No, no, I'm not putting down a single vapor barrier, I'm putting down two vapor control layers, um, which is perfectly fine in that situation. It does not void a warranty on the shingle. Um, I like using that system because when I taped that joint, the first time I built a house, uh, well, let me back up. Before I built a house using zip system, I was hovering around a two ACH50. The first time I went with a house that I taped those joints, I dropped well below a one. Yep. So, and I contribute that a lot of that to that roofing system. Uh, actually had an air con an established air control layer at that point with the tape. So, back to our control layers, that zip system or that OSB is also an air control layer.

SPEAKER_02 13:03

Um well, plywood's gonna be the same.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Plywood's the same way when you tape those joints. Otherwise, around here, you don't tape the joints, and then you spray foam the underside of the decking. You're relying on that spray foam, and spray foam open cell is not an air control. Absolutely not. And that's a misconception around here that it is. Um now, closed cell foam can be uh at two inches, at two inches thick, it can be. Um so that kind of breaks down a little bit of the roofing. Um, we've talked about plywood, we've talked about OSB, we've talked about the zip and LP, and how you would waterproof those with uh LP and zip are waterproofed on their own as long as they're taped. The um plywood and the OSB would be waterproofed with the underlayment.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

Um I think we have to be careful and make sure that when we say waterproof, that it's really bulk waterproof.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

It's bulk waterproof, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

It's not because it's still uh a class two vapor barrier. So it still allows moisture to migrate, come and grate, come and go, and so uh bulk water is one thing and vapor is another.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Now all the isom water shields that are mostly a pill and stick type form, those are going to be a true vapor barrier. Correct. Um and so if if somebody was to go and put a um isom water shield over the whole entire house, that it can potentially it can tend can potentially probe pose a threat if there's not a um um a ridge vent. Um because here in the panhandle, we don't just have vapor drive outwards, we have vapor drive outwards and inwards because we're a hot and cold climate. Yeah, we have we're arid and dry, so vapor's usually not a huge concern for us, but putting that ice and water shield over an entire roof on top of OSB is a very risky assembler here if it's not a ventilated system. Um but I don't know if there's any more on the the roof. Well, we talked 716s is the common size. Um 5.8s nationally is another common size. We'll say that um if you drive around, especially a lot of production homes that have been built, and you see that waviness on the roof line, that five eighths will stop that. Um it is structurally approved to have seven sixteenths on two-foot centers. Yes, it is, and that is what most homes are built with around here. Yes. And you will see that that dip in between the rafters on the shingle line often. Um a thicker shingle, a higher class shingle can help hide that, but over time it is pretty inevitable. Um, and so when we talked about roof framing last time, we also talked about that's that spacing on those rafters or those trusses can be reduced. And so when you reduce it from 24 down to 19, 19.2, you can use a 716 and it does mitigate that um that roof shape, that waviness. Um well and it's also gonna like if with the hailstorms that we get, you know, it is that gonna you're not gonna have to replace the uh uh maybe a certain very specific size hailstorm. Um if the shingles are getting damaged, that's one thing, and the the hells get big enough, then it will also damage the the the decking system alone. Right. And so there's times that you would have the decking replaced, but to say that a five-eighths decking is gonna withhold a hellstorm much better than a seven sixteenths at that point. It it's so hard to determine what size hellstone the five-eighths would take versus the seven sixteenths that they're getting damaged, they're probably both getting damaged. Yep. Um thousand eleven, two thousand twelve, two thirteen.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

I can't remember when we had the map. I had just gone to work for the city of Amarillo and walked in, and we had paperwork this high every morning because we had to go out and do roof inspections, and I saw holes in roofs this big. I saw skylights, I saw windows on the front of houses. It looked like a bomb went off in the front of the house, and it was hell, but it was hail that was humongous. I mean, there was billions of dollars worth of damage done, and so we learned a lot about hell and how you know, kind of an un I mean, knock on wood, shouldn't say it, but we're actually due, it's time for another big one. Now, fortunately, I think we've had a little bit of a shift in our weather pattern a little bit that's I'm hoping keeping that big hail away.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

But I you know one one thing I didn't mention on our on our roof assembly that another reason I really like using um a tape seam. So whether it's whether it is plywood osb or um zip or weather logic, but another reason I like to use that tape seam that that is a water control layer on that in that situation, we do get a lot of high wind around here. And so if the roof system being that the shingle and the underlayment do happen to blow off, um chances are those are going to blow off a lot quicker than your decking will, depending on how that's fastened. Um well, uh our typical assembly is we would use 19-2 on a roof system, framing-wise, go back with the 716s and use a ring shank nail to apply that decking.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

And maybe if you're lucky.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

I've yeah, well, that's what we we require it. So I've had to remove panels that have been um applied with a ring shank nail, like a 131, and I will tell you that that OSB, that zip system will be absolutely torn up before you get those nails removed, yes, because that's such a strong holding power compared to the standard installation of a staple, yeah, which I can almost grab that panel with one hand and rip that panel off while it's been stapled.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Because they don't even use the right staple, that's the other problem.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

Yeah, it's um but going back to why I like it, if that roof system being the shingles and the under limit blow off, and I've got a zip system roof that's been taped on that. Well, a lot of times when we get those big storms, we also get rain with it. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, you've just mitigated the rain from entering the house at that point. It is your primary water control layer that has not been removed. It's only your secondary, your cladding or your shingles that has been removed. And so the chances of the inside of that house being damaged throughout a storm have been significantly reduced. So now we've got a really well-established air control layer. We've got a really well-established water control layer, and that's why that's our standard practice in doing that.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Yeah, I don't I I mean, I know the conversation is going to come up. Well, that cost too much money. Well, cost too much money compared to what.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

You know, does it does it cost you too much money after that first good hailstorm and your sheathing is still fine, and your insurance company comes back and all you're doing is providing underlayment and shingles? I don't know. How much does it really cost? Well, the and the the mid mitigating the other damage.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

The other damage is the big part. So, yes, there is a there is a cost associated with that. The process that I just explained. The other part about that is I'm gonna guess 85% of the homes around here being built in new construction have an open cell spray foam on it.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

On the underside of the roof deck. Yeah. And so what happens when your roof does get torn off and the sheathing's still there, but your shingles and your underlayment have been gone and it gets rained on, and now you've got a giant sponge. Now it should be 10 inches of spray foam absorbing all that water, and it does not release that water. No. Then you're kind of asking for it. Um there's It's a case that sure it's not going to happen every year. It's not going to happen every decade. Oh. But when it does happen, then your your roof system that has been you know cost a little bit more money up front has now more than 10 times paid for itself. Yep. And all the mitigation that would have to go through that. Um I'm not trying to sell anybody on using that product and explain why I use it and the building science behind it.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

But but there are other builders across the country that do feel the same way, and that's why they do it. I mean, it's this is not something that we just magically pulled out of our hat and said it. It's it's a proven system. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Um I think that's kind of it on the roof, though. It's yeah, you we've got several options on it. Um there's several approaches to it, and you know, covering the WRB, that's I think we've kind of covered it all. Uh the the wall system is basically the roof system turned vertically. Turn vertical. Yeah. Um absolutely. You know, we're looking at on all these, they're supplying a structural element, right? So that's another reason we've got that. It's not just to shed water, water, otherwise, you know, you could put underlayment over the top of that, and technically it's waterproof, you know, if you didn't have decking up there. But there's the structural aspect of it. We've got to have that structural aspect of the panel being nailed to the rafters or the um the walls, the studs, or uh if we're using trusses, it's tying those together, it's resisting racking. Um resisting movement, resists movement, locks those structures together. So there's the structural aspect of it, there's the water control aspect of it. Um, they do make products on the walls that have insulation integrated to the panels, so it could be looking at the thermal aspect of it. Um, and then the vapor control aspect of it. Uh, if on the walls it does change a little bit more, there are flu applied barriers that are vapor closed. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

Um, there's peeling sticks that are vapor closed as well.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

That are vapor closed and and vapor open. Yep. Um, and what those are is you know, if you think about zip and it has that uh factory applied weather layer on it, the green facer. If you took OSB or plywood, put it on the house, and then you rolled that onto the in the field, um that's what a fluid apply, roller spray on. Yeah, that's what a fluid apply. And there's different products, some are vapor open, some are vapor closed, depending on the similar that you're going for uh and the product that you're using. And then the other side of that is the pill and stick, which is very similar to an ice and water shield on the roof. Um, some of those product-wise are also vapor-open, vapor-closed. Uh, they provide an excellent way of the water control layer, but uh then you get into the nuances of the vapor side of that. And then the the last one, which is the more traditional that we still see around here quite a bit, is um uh house wrap. And a house wrap is basically underlayment on the walls.

SPEAKER_02 25:25

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Um, the cool thing about some of those house wraps is if you know you're getting into siding, you can get an integrated rain screen into those. Yeah. So you get a uh drainage plane that's incorporated into that water control layer. Um but yeah, that's kind of it on the yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

I mean, there's not there's just so many products out there. You I mean, we could spend two days talking about all the products that that are associated with uh every bit of being open or closed or semi or whatever, however, you want to use it. Um I you know, I I I don't know. I I'm not totally against house wrap. No, I'm not either. Um I think there are some house wraps that maybe we ought to rethink about using. Um there's certain I'm gonna just say this, there's certain European manufacturers that do a way lot better job of building house wrap that for the most part's pretty tough to find in the US.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

And it's not I'm not saying you can't find it here, because they do. I mean, Benjamin Obadike's one of them. You know, I've looked through their booth and they make some amazing products.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

They do. Um, yeah, they make they make a really good house wrap. And and you know, we talked about taping the seams on on zip system, and we even talked about it on taping seams on plywood and yeah, LSB on the roof. Absolutely. And that in this case, usually when you're using a house wrap, you're taping that house wrap, and that house wrap becomes your air control layer on it. Yep. Um, so I think where our industry has kind of dropped the ball on in our area is we no longer start to think about it as an air control layer when we're using house wraps. We we only think about it as shedding water. And maybe we've done an okay job of detailing it for to shed water. In some cases, we've done a really poor job. But if you address it in the aspect of this house wrap is the air control layer, and you've taped those seams and you've detailed those flashenings and openings and penetrations and folds and all that correctly to solve for the air control layer, then you've done a superb job in solving for the water control layer. Uh, and I think that's where we need to really when we start to look at that, because I agree with you, it's an excellent, it's an excellent assembly.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Uh, it's just been installed poorly in the in the past around here. And if we can change the mindset of there's nothing wrong with a house wrap when it's installed correctly, and if we install it that way, it's a premium product.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

And uh, you know, and I think one of the practices is we get in such a big hurry that the wind's blowing 35 miles an hour, and I'm trying to put up a nine-foot-wide house wrap. Oh, come on, Mr. Builder. I'm not putting up your house wrap today. Yeah, I'm gonna wait. I meant, you know, it may put you back behind a day or two, but if I pick a day or a morning and I start at seven o'clock in the morning and I have zero to six mile an hour wind, that's okay. I can make that happen. Um, and but I still see too much of it wrinkled, it's improperly. They're using the wrong tools to cut it. Certain manufacturers are very clear about cutting their house wrap with large scissors or shears, not a razor knife. Uh-uh. No, it's in there inside. Oh no, we just whip out a razor knife, baby, and we you know, and it it looks like a crocodile tooth on the wall, and we, you know, we get that six-inch overlap, and man, we we nail up and we use the little washers under it, and man, we did a good job today.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

Well, you did, or it it gets put up and then it gets taped a week later. Yeah, and that's also really bad practice because it those open ends, when they have been cut, yeah, aren't aren't made to withstand the winds that we get here. That's why they're supposed to be another reason they're supposed to be taped.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Um, so then you get phrase and you've jeopardized the integrity of that house, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:01

Well, and you and if you're using it as far apart as your vapor control barrier, and you go back a week later, we don't know what happened within that week. Did we have a big dust storm? Did we have uh mist or a rain come in if it's in the spring or mid early summer? And then you come in and you tape it off like you're supposed to. What did you just try?

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

So I I think that is something else. Is sorry guys, and this is gonna sound a little crass, but they put it in English, they put it in Spanish, they put it in French.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

So pick one and read the directions. I'm all about reading directions. The last the last wall panel that I didn't bring up, it's Robert's favorite, by the way. Um it's uh it's I'm not gonna go with the brand name of it, but it's a uh thermal insulated structural panel. Oh yeah. Um that's it just meets the requirements of structural and was sold as a um a thermal control layer. Um I can I can cut it with my pocket knife.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

And most of the time when the HVAC guys come in to knock their hole for the line set, they just knock it in there with a hammer.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

Yep. I've seen that. Uh we're using that that uh kicksaw. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Yeah, the kicksaw. It's um I mean, I don't know uh without without just really dogging the brand name of it, I don't know of another name to call it, but it's usually a fibrous board that's a half inch thick. Uh kind of like kind of like cardboard. Yeah. Uh it's most time it's black. And it has been approved in the building industry, however, it is um if it's installed right, and if nothing has been done to jeopardize it, it does what it's supposed to do. The problem is in the construction field, it is not a it is not an arts and crafts room where you can go and precisely cut something, leave it alone, and never touch it again. And you have all these trades that are involved that do stuff like take a box cutter to it or a hammer to it, and then you've in jeopardized the structural integrity of it, you've lost your air control layer, you've lost your water control layer, you've lost your vapor, and you lost your your thermal that you were counting on, which was part of the reason it was even sold. Um, that and the cost of it. Yeah. If if all those things can be jeopardized with a pocket knife, then it's probably not a product you should be putting on your house. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

Uh well, we we have somebody else that's in the podcast industry that's banging them pretty hard. So he's definitely against it. Yeah. And uh I've not had a lot of experience with it, but I've read their website, I've done everything I could to educate myself on it, and it still shows up here, especially in the apartment.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Um affordable housing, yeah, affordable housing. That's where it's that's the market that it's sold to because it is the it is the cheapest structural um board that can be put on a house. Yep. Um and still meet it still meets requirements. Um but I think the application of it in the real world, that's the downside. Do you realize that it's in the construction field? Uh it can be damaged so easily, it can be altered so easily that using that in the field, you're jeopardizing the quality of that home because it's going to happen. Yeah, holes are gonna get knocked in, it's gonna get cut where it doesn't need to get cut, it's not gonna be repaired.

SPEAKER_02 34:05

And if they do repair it, most of the time they don't even repair it correctly. So you just wasted whatever three minutes you did repairing a kicksaw hole. So I just I don't know. I just can't. I I mean, there's a lot of products out there that I can buy off on and I can reasonably say, you know what, that product might work pretty good, you know. Uh whether everybody knows it or doesn't know it, but there is a um hemp plant that's uh should be, I don't know when they're supposed to start on it. I'll know more pretty soon, but gonna be built in Dumas. They're gonna be growing hemp in Dumas. They've already been growing it to see how it was gonna come and do. And um we're gonna have access to uh hemp insulation. We're gonna have access to hemp board and things that we typically don't see. Um I'm not totally against hemp. It's just I think it does some amazing things, and it's expensive. Yeah, uh hemp clothing is you can't wear it out, right? You just can't do it.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

It's the longest, strongest fiber known to man.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

Yeah, absolutely. Natural fiber, yep.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Um, it's naturally bug resistant. There's a lot of cool things about it for sure. Um I think it's expensive because it's not in our region. True. And it's and it's it's fairly new to market. I mean, I I don't know the ins and outs of the legalities that they've uh had to face in uh past decades to be able to get where they are to be where they're I don't know how how um you know how quickly it's moved to products since then, but obviously it's not moved to products near us yet. And I think that that'll be a big difference when we get that locally. Um a lot of cool things can happen with it.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

Yeah. And you know, they make um timber HP. That's kind of a new item in the US. Um, and it's pre, it's a uh, you know, instead of being a post product like cellulose, it's a it's a pre-product. They're taking clean wood fiber and they're building loose fill with it, they're building um bats with it. Uh I did see on their website that there is a possibility we could be looking at uh like a rigid board type product for exterior installation. So, you know, some of these products that we think are new, they've been using in Europe forever and a day that's been working just fine. Sure. And uh I have a I have an enormous amount of uh respect for the Canadians, for the Swiss, uh the Germans, I mean the English, I mean, they've kind of figured out and been the reason that they're usually more advanced in their building practices.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

There's two. They've either been doing it longer for a really long time, yeah, or they've been forced to deal with climates that we haven't, which have required them to come up with solutions that we haven't had to. Yep. Um, but just because of those two things doesn't mean that we shouldn't be looking at them for guidance because you know the guy with experience is the one you ask. Sure it is. Um, there's a reason they do it, and it's not because it's expensive, it's because it's superior in multiple ways. The only other wall and roof systems that uh hadn't brought up is and because we've already talked about this in during our probably our framing stages is SIPS, yeah. Um structural instrument panels, different type of wall. Um and I think we covered those pretty well. You know, we're we've we mainly talked about sheathing in this episode and sheathing covering uh for the WRB, but there's a lot of there's a lot of WRB options that are not so common practice that you know probably aren't worth bringing up. It's worth talking about what we do here and right maybe the products that we should look at, or if you're building a house, uh maybe ask your builder about it, or you know, as an architect, maybe talk to a homeowner about the design they want to incorporate because these things are have to be thought about before you just go and build the house.

SPEAKER_02 38:48

You know, and I'm still surprised that fiberboard is still here. Are we? Yeah, I kind of am. I mean, fiberboard's been around a super long time, and it you know, it took me a little bit of time to go, maybe maybe we need to rethink how we how we use it, is what I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

I think it will continue to be used that way as long as code allows for it because it is the cheapest solution, and there's always somebody looking to build for the cheapest solution.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

There's some houses built in Amarella just in the last 10 years with it. So yeah, I don't know. I just uh you know, I I think sometimes we look at the code book and we say, dang it, it's just too hard to follow. Really? They still got whim bracing in it, they still got fiberboard in it, they still got, you know, there's still ways that you could probably build and incorporate some of the older methods and work in some of the newer methods in certain areas. Could that help us build affordable homes? Probably, if we just sit down and thought about it.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:09

Well, I think WRBs have been pretty covered. It's a wrap. That's a wrap, baby. Nice.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

Well, um again, we we want to mention our sponsor, Huber Engineer Woods. Um, products they make, the Advantec subfloor. They've got their face to Vantech, their X Factor, they've got zip system uh wall sheathing. So they've got it in 716, half inch, 5'8. 5'8. Um their roof decking. Um, what else am I missing? They've got new products out now, like their rain screen. Yep. Uh, all their tapes and sealants, which uh work really well with their product as well as with other products. You see them being used all the time. Um, super good lineup of products that all work really well together with really good um RD and um I guess customer service that are attached with that. Um, so it's a product that we believe in. We're really happy to have them as a sponsor. It's super cool that they're sponsoring us.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:15

So thanks, Huber, for that. And then again, want to give the home and garden show a plug again. Um, the March 29th and 30th at the Emerald Civic Center.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

And then May, oh, wait a minute. Whoops.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Get ahead of myself. We've got all the new cool things. We've we've uh the committee's worked really hard this year to bring in some new activities to really um engage our um uh customer attention and keep them there and and give them some opportunities to uh do some new things. So we've got the kids' corner where Home Depot is being a sponsor for that, bringing in their uh kids projects that we can do with kids and parents or kids alone. Uh, you know, you can walk in and take your kid to the corner, or you can go over there and do it with them. Either way, I think they'll have a blast. Um, we've got our education stage where we're gonna be doing the um uh uh question and answers with industry professionals. Uh those are gonna be 20 20-minute segments. We've got a pretty big lineup of uh different types of professionals throughout our industry, and then we're also gonna be doing a live podcast there as well. Um really excited to have that this year, and I think we're bringing a lot of cool things to it, and so make sure you guys come check it out this year. It's gonna be different than whatever you've seen before, uh, or adding more stuff to it, and I think it'll be good for anybody, whether you're looking at doing home projects, gardening projects, building a house, even if you're not. I mean, you can get answers from insurance agents on what kind of insurance you should be covering or having and the cost of it.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Right now, that's a big deal.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

I think we'll have financial institutions there. If you're you know maybe looking at doing something outside of the home building, it's still a lot to offer the general public. I think a lot of interesting things happening there. So come check it out. Tickets are five dollars ahead, so it's cheap. Probably. Um, yeah, it's next to you. What else are you gonna do for five dollars for that kind of entertainment? Um and Home Depot, I think I don't think there's a charge at the kids corner as well. I think they've donated all those supplies, uh, which usually is something you've got to sign up for, like a Saturday project. Sure. You go to Home Depot and you give them $10 or whatever it was, or five, whatever they charge. So they're they're bringing that in, and we're really happy to partner with them as well.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

But and we'll be there to sign autographs for anybody that's interested.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

That's right. We'll have a uh we'll have a band calendar.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

Nobody would buy.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Well, thanks for joining us for another episode of the TPBA builder talk. We look forward to our next podcast, a live podcast. Yep. At the home and garden show.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Live podcast.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

Join us there. We'd be happy to um have conversations with you guys and answer questions or bring up new topics for our upcoming podcast. Uh, until then, we'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

Thanks, everybody. Thanks for viewing.