TPBA BuilderTalk
Welcome to TPBA BuilderTalk, the premier podcast for construction enthusiasts, builders, and industry professionals in the Texas Panhandle! Join us as we delve into the dynamic construction world, offering in-depth discussions on building techniques, the latest advancements, and essential updates on building codes and regulations. Whether you're a seasoned contractor or just starting, our expert guests and insightful episodes will keep you informed and inspired. Tune in to stay ahead of rule changes, explore innovative solutions, and gain valuable insights to help you build better, smarter, and more efficiently in the Texas Panhandle. Don't miss an episode of TPBA BuilderTalk—where construction meets conversation.
TPBA BuilderTalk
Fenestrations
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Welcome to the Texas Panhandle Builders Association TPBA Builder Talk Podcast, where we'll bring you expert advice from the heart of Amarella Building Community. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting in the trade, our goal is to keep you informed on the ever-evolving building codes, share best practices, and help you excel in your craft. From innovative design ideas to smart material selections and everything in between, we're here to support you in every aspect of home building. Each episode, we'll dive into the topics that matter most to builders, contractors, and industry professionals, ensuring that you stay ahead of the curve in this rapidly changing landscape. Our discussions are shaped by the experiences and knowledges of our hosts and guests, providing you valuable perspectives that you can apply directly to your work. The views and the opinions expressed are those of the hosts and the guests and may not always reflect the most up-to-date or accurate information. Let's build something great together, one conversation at a time. We tried one for the uh home and garden show, doing a live podcast, and the audio didn't quite turn out garden show, garden show, show, show, show, garden show. Um so here we are recording a new episode over fenestrations, and we want to thank our by the way, that means windows and doors. Uh today's today's uh sponsors, of course, we have Huber Engineered Woods. Huber's our year-long sponsor for the podcast. Um, we're really grateful to have them believe in their product and their system as a whole. Um and great RD, great product. Can't say enough about Huber. Yeah, and uh today's episode is gonna be sponsored by Pella, Pella Windows and Doors. Um, they've being that that's the topic, they uh jumped in and decided to sponsor this day's episode. And uh we're really happy to have them and appreciate what Pella does for us in our community here as well. Well, and who are you? I'm Jordan Dugan with Caprock Design and Build, your host, Ben Hardesty with Southwest Sales.
SPEAKER_00I'm Robert Downing with RDS Inspection Service, and Joel Raffton with Forther Duration Homes.
SPEAKER_03And we're all a part of the Texas Panhandle Builder Association.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we are.
SPEAKER_03Uh, which is probably how you found this podcast. So but uh windows and doors, windows and doors, gotta get in, gotta get out.
SPEAKER_02Gotta see, gotta have some light, gotta have some light, gotta have a little light, gotta have you have to have egress, you have to have light. There's all kinds of reasons for having windows and doors.
SPEAKER_03There is, and we've got a lot of codes that regulate those windows and doors. Uh, probably which aren't real known about because the windows and door manufacturer are the ones that kind of follow those guidelines.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they pretty much stay on top of it. They don't they don't monkey around with it. They they'll fix it from one climate zone to the next, but typically there's a sticker on every window. I wish we had an example, but we don't, uh, of what the U value is of the window and the you know, just the the uh I can't think of the word I'm looking for. Well the solar heat gain.
SPEAKER_02That's the way it's just ratings.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, all the ratings on a window. There's and based on the climate zone depends on the rating that has to be on that window. And it's not just a matter of changing a sticker.
SPEAKER_02Correct. No, the manufacturer, like Jordan says, kind of rules the roost on this, and they have testing and they you know, they they know the environment, they know the wind, they know the the sun, and they they tell us uh and the code what works in their product lines and the stickers on the window for the report information. And the inspector and and and the designer, and uh, you know, like we'll talk about pretty soon is why a certain window would be in a certain spot or or what's too big, what's too small, and and it's just part of our code requirements to build it correctly.
SPEAKER_03And there are cheap windows out there that you can get from various locations that do not have a sticker, and those do not meet code and should not be installed in a house. Nope. Um, they haven't gone through the proper procedures and testing and verifications to meet the standards that we're in today. And one of the reasons they're cheap is because they're not paying for that.
SPEAKER_00Um testing, and then if you're if you're buying a 3-0, 5-0 window for a hundred bucks, uh, keep it. I hope it's for your kids' playhouse. Yeah, exactly. You know, that's what it's for.
SPEAKER_02You know, there's a reason to have that, and you're building a kids' playhouse or a tree house, not so much around here for tree houses, no, but uh yeah, that's about what they're good for.
SPEAKER_03The sticker is important, um, and it's it's that sticker is being produced by the same testing facility throughout the United States.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03Um, there's four main categories on that sticker that we're looking for. Um, and it has a lot of other information about the window as well, but those four categories are um really what's kind of letting us know that hey, this is an approved window for your region. This meets all the specs that it that it should have, and um, you're good to install it. And you typically would leave that on there for the inspector to see and verify as well.
SPEAKER_02Um well, even going back to the beginning, the plan review guy has to know it. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Supposed to.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, I mean, in in the sake of some jurisdictions and then and some plan review, it's a detailed list of windows and why. And it's a little more detailed in some jurisdictions than other, but uh way up front in plan review at the very beginning, you have to just as you're putting a list in for electric loads or something, you gotta really give them a whole very organized list on this window per location and the sticker values, and that and that comes out, you know, in so much glass, and there's a whole thing on there, and it comes out in air and a you know, so plan review has a big thing to do with it in most jurisdictions.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and some people think that's a pain, and I understand it, but is that a joke? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. What I'm getting at is you can some people go, Well, I don't know what that is until I order my windows, and the windows get here. Wrong. The manufacturer already has it, so it's no big deal. It's in your quote, yeah. We in your quote from Pella Pella or yeah, yeah, Pella does a good job, they do, and they will tell you what that window is.
SPEAKER_03Well, so another aspect of that we talked a while back in one of our first episodes um about going performance versus prescriptive. Yep, right. So if we're doing a performance, you absolutely need to know these up front because that's how they're gonna score your house. Yeah, they're gonna design it to meet the standards that you would need to meet.
SPEAKER_02Um, even when you're doing the computer modeling for the high performance, yeah, you gotta have it for that you know the net zeros and those types of things. Absolutely. That's information that goes into the into the basically the recipe. You build a big recipe to build your house, and that's a big part of it. Yep.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you can you can build the recipe based off of the prescriptive table and use that. And then if you do what you're supposed to do, and that's to have an inspector come out and look at your windows and doors and stuff, typically at rough end stage or at insulation stage, and he will jot down or write down what all of those numbers are and compare it to verification process, verification process. That's right. And uh, we don't do that here, but we should be.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, we actually do do that as far as having an energy audit, you know.
SPEAKER_00Sort of.
SPEAKER_02I mean, you know, I I think the net zero house, a gentleman he came out with the stickers and had to enter it back into his program, or I wasn't gonna get my certificate at the end, right? So but um but that's a specialty that's right, you know, third party kind of thing, but it isn't the standard building inspector guide. No, correct, no, correct. So um you don't have your your gear today. I don't have who are you? I know no hat, no shirt. Oh well, you need to excuse yourself and come back with a hat. This isn't uh a visual audio podcast we're doing. It is, it is.
SPEAKER_03Um shocked, and we and we've got uh answer machine playing in the background.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's that that's that means we're for real. I mean that's not dubbed in, but um, I'm just shocked not to see you in your uh uh stuff. Must be laundry day at your house.
SPEAKER_03It it's laundry, it is laundry day at the house. There you go. Okay, that's exactly right. Um well, I want to get into the four categories that we're gonna talk about, and then I'm gonna pivot into why if we went into a performance path, why we actually might not meet the standard on some of those. What's some options we could do to kind of turn those dials a little bit? But let's talk about the four, right?
SPEAKER_00So I got them right here. First one, let's talk about the U factor.
SPEAKER_02U factor for climate zone for well, first put a description of what U factor means for the group.
SPEAKER_00Okay. U factor basically is the inverse of R value.
SPEAKER_01So but an R value is the insulation and the casino.
SPEAKER_00It's an insulation. Uh the way it was explained to me because I asked why U value was used on windows instead of an R value. And it was kind of funny the way the glass people put it to me was well, it's because the builders in the 50s and 60s couldn't wrap their head around the low the R value number of a window. And I went, oh, okay. So it just stuck that makes perfect sense that they would understand the U value being a higher number, they got it.
SPEAKER_02They they could does anybody know what the that letter U stands for?
SPEAKER_00Uh it's UA, so it's uh you don't have to know.
SPEAKER_02I was just curious. I don't know. It I don't know. No, it is what's the R what's the R letters stand for? Resistance? Resistance. Yeah, yeah. Resistance. So unresistance.
SPEAKER_01So you'd want a the more efficient window is gonna have a higher or a lower U factor. It's gonna have a lower factor number.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, smaller smaller numbers better.
SPEAKER_03So what he means by the inverse of R is it, if I'm not mistaken, if you have a 0.3 U factor, to get the R, you would put 0.3 over one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And that number would give you the R factor.
SPEAKER_00R value. Yep.
SPEAKER_03So R value of a point three window 0.3 divided by one, right?
SPEAKER_00An assembly with a U factor equal to or less than that specified in the table shall be permitted as an alternative to the R value in table R 4.02.
SPEAKER_03It's it's one over the U factor. Yes. So 0.3 is a 3.33 R value. Right. Uh I think a good window if you're getting anywhere near the sixes is a really good window.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. I mean you're gonna be down.12 U factor, 0.12. That's we don't have we don't see a lot of windows like that around here unless they're European based.
SPEAKER_03They're in the 0.27s, two fives, two eights around here for a decent window.
SPEAKER_00I was I was told by two different window manufacturers that you need to be very careful if you're choosing an American-made window over a European window, is because they measure those those windows different.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they include the frame, I believe.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_03And we do not wear it.
SPEAKER_00The Europeans, the Europeans just include the glass. That's all they include. Is it center of glass? Center of glass. Yep. And we're the whole glass. We're the whole glass and the frame. So they so even if you were to see a 0.10 for a European window, for instance, does mean it's better. It doesn't necessarily mean it better. It could be the same as a U value of a window of a 0.15, 0.19, somewhere up in there. So I don't know what the comparisons are, but all the US manufacturers of windows have all done that research, they know what the difference is.
SPEAKER_02So let's break that down a little bit just a little more. Um, sometimes I try to think like someone who doesn't know anything. Yeah, I'll get it. And so the letter U or the U factor is a rating on how good the window is. Is that good in the way of air infiltration? Is it good in the way of the number? Okay, so what's the good part of the U? What's what's that mean exactly? It's not it's not air and it's not solar heat gain.
SPEAKER_03It's it's the resistance to heat transfer.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so it's literally just the whole entire unit is tested for the R value resistance, but in the in the letter U. That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_03Well, the heat lamp and yeah, the thermometer underneath on the other side of it.
SPEAKER_02Just that simple.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it's it's not a real hard.
SPEAKER_03Um, okay. All right, so that's it. U factor is the R value basically of the window. We're looking at how good that that window will insulate that opening for heat and cool. Yep.
SPEAKER_00All right, what was the next number? The next number is for skylights, and it's done the same.
SPEAKER_02No, but what's the next category you wanted? Or I guess we can talk about the U value for the skylights.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, skylight is a 0.55. Yeah. And a uh U value for uh let's see what the other one is. Let me go back up here to the table. Uh the doors are uh our glazed fenced solar heat gain, is actually the next one.
SPEAKER_02So it's there's no U factor for the door?
SPEAKER_00Uh don't see a door.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_02Um wouldn't make sense that it would.
SPEAKER_00Point because it four is typically what we see for on doors.
SPEAKER_02Um testing the actual like door panel with glass in it, not not the locking and the door.
SPEAKER_00It depends on whether it's a half glass or glass.
SPEAKER_02Like in a window unit, it's a complete window unit, and they're I can see them doing that testing, but on a door, it might just be the door blank itself because there's no way they can guarantee any kind of interlock or gasket systems on a jam, door to jam. They couldn't, they they there'd be way too many variances there. Sure. So it must just be the glass that's in the door, and if it's a fiberglass door or clad door, or whatever.
SPEAKER_00That's what I was thinking to say, whether it's a solid wood or fiberglass or whatever you want. Metal is another one.
SPEAKER_02I mean, yeah, that makes sense. They just you know, the door blank, the door.
SPEAKER_00There's actually a sticker on the door when they come in. Most of them, I mean, most of these numbers are already on the doors and windows, and so as an inspector, I go by and just make sure that they because this this is the minimum. That's what we're building to is to the minimum.
SPEAKER_02So and getting to your point about you come in to inspect, um, a lot of times the stickers disappear.
SPEAKER_00They do.
SPEAKER_02So if you as a as a homeowner or builder, when when that stuff shows up on site, take some photo documentation, yeah. And if the sticker's gone, then oh, yeah, this is what was on this window. Here's a picture of it. See, or take a piece of tape and stick it back to the window.
SPEAKER_03Well, it's very hard to pull an invoice up and prove that that was the window. Yeah, there's not there's not a serial number that's identified on the glass.
SPEAKER_02It's no, but I've taken pictures, and it's obvious through that glass is that dumpster, and then there's the school there. Yeah, I didn't turn the house. Sure, that's the window that's there, and so I've done that before.
SPEAKER_00And we we have a tendency to use the same window from one side of the house to the next. Yeah, we do not vary. We should be we'll get there. We're getting there. Am I getting ahead of you? You're getting ahead of me.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so do do um you inspect those stickers at the end or at the rough end?
SPEAKER_00Rough end.
SPEAKER_02I see.
SPEAKER_03So U factor the next one. Let's talk about solar heat gain coefficient, which is also on the sticker SHGC. Yes. Okay, so what's the solar heat gain coefficient do, right? We're we're talking about how much that's easier to understand than U value. Yeah, it is, and it's in a way it's it's kind of similar. Um, the U value, we're talking about outside air temperature, right? The outside temperature coming through the glass. The solar heat gain coefficient, we're still kind of talking about temperature. I mean it's solar, but it's solar temperature, solar heat, it's not snow. So they're in the same, but they're not. And the higher the the solar heat gain coefficient, the hugely important what side of the house you're looking at, too, you know, for sure. That that number, I don't know how exactly how they get the number, but let's so 0.4 is our minimum standard right now. 0.35 would be a better solar heat gain coefficient. The lower the number is, the better that solar heat gain coefficient is, the higher that number is, the more solar heat gain is.
SPEAKER_00And in our typical windows, in our typical windows, the way it was I've had it explained is the higher that solar heat gain window can go in our climate, now it makes the window a lot more clearer to look out of, but it doesn't help stop that solar heat gain from coming in. So, you know, I've always said if climate zone three and climate zone five could have a baby, it would be climate zone four, because that's one of the hardest climates in the world to build to. And so because we're dealing with high swings of each high swings of each. So it's it's very difficult.
SPEAKER_02So you just mentioned a second ago the number for the solar was you said we're at this, we're at point four. Okay, well, break that down for a second, not the point four. When you say we are at who's we and what's national, and what code are we talking about? Because we're talking to the whole world here. We have a big we got big people watching this here.
SPEAKER_03We're referring to our Amarello, and we're on our we're enforcing 2015 IRC, and that was the code for our our energies of IECC. Uh, yes, that's correct.
SPEAKER_02IEC. So 2015. Yes. And so just down the road, um, it's a different climate change by a bit, but they're on a different code cycle. Correct. So that they're doing a better window.
SPEAKER_03Most likely they are.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So I'm just saying if whoever, if you're listening to us out of a different state, it it's kind of specific to what your jurisdiction is adopted for the code.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, good point.
SPEAKER_02So our our code is um 2015 right now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it is where the city of Austin, for instance, while I was out in Austin in April, I was sitting there, they're on the 2024 and they're enforcing it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so that's just something you want to pay attention to is where are you living and what your code is, yeah, and what you've adopted.
SPEAKER_03So we've got U factor solar heat gain coefficient. The next one I want to do is the VT, the visible transmission, because it ties in with the solar gain with the solar heat gain. Yeah, and usually the better that window is at solar heat gain coefficient, so the lower that number would be, the higher worse it is to see-through. It is you're getting less visible transmission. So there's also another factor into that, and some of the real high-quality glass can have a pretty good solar heat gain coefficient and still have a really high visible transmission, especially a triple pane, especially a triple pane. But you are paying for that quality of glass to get that clearness so that when you look out, things aren't distorted or green or different color than they should be. It looks like it would if you were outside with you know, it's important on a view house, very important on a viewhouse.
SPEAKER_02Uh, not so much on uh 3050 egress with curtains, right?
SPEAKER_03Not a big deal, ten foot away from a neighbor, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Five foot away, yeah, right. Five foot setback. So so keep that in mind. You know, it's not that big a deal if you have nothing to see.
SPEAKER_03Some people like the solar heat gain coefficient look because they you don't see in the house very easily, right? So you're driving down the street and you've got a big, you know, six-foot window, you can't really see what they're doing, even though the curtains are open because that solar heat gain coefficient tent is blocking that view. Uh, and it blocks it more from the outside than it does the inside.
SPEAKER_00But unfortunately, if it's on the north side of the house, that's not necessarily a good thing either. Yes, almost there, almost there.
SPEAKER_03The last section that we have that is commonly not placed on our stickers here, which is supposed to be by the window manufacturer, is air leakage.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_03There is a requirement for air leakage, for a minimum air leakage, um, which is a good thing. And our air leakage here is 0.30, 0.3 CFM.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03So 0.3 cubic feet a minute is what that window unit itself can leak. Now that doesn't we're not saying that if the window is installed uh improperly and not sealed up, that you're not going to get way more leakage than that. We're saying that the window unit itself. That's right. Yeah, that's exactly right. And so that is an important one. You know, we don't want leaky windows. That results here is dust. A dirty house. Yeah, dirty house.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we we get wind storms. We what's those things called? Haboos? Yeah. Haboobs. Haboobs. Yeah, it's a big windstorm like you see on TV where they take over the horse and the guy riding. It's a big dust storm. Yeah, we have those. And I've seen them come right through the windows.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right through the windows. And they're just sitting on the sill, nice layer of dust, and 80 mile an hour winds with the dust, you know, there's not a lot of erosion control, not a lot of grass and green. So you guess dirt just hits the air and it comes right in the window. And that's air leakage. And you see it.
SPEAKER_03You see it.
SPEAKER_02It's definitely not a I wonder if you can hear it even.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's there. Um, point four is where we're at. I would say a lot of our windows around here. Um, and it makes a difference if the windows are operable or not operable, but true. A lot of them are probably around the point three. Um, so depending on the manual.
SPEAKER_00I've seen a lot of single hungs here lately because I've been paying attention to it. We're at point three, but I I know without a doubt in my mind, after setting through a couple of different window manufacturer, you know as well as I do that that window that is a casement windows a lot better seals a lot better because the wind's blowing that window to itself to seal.
SPEAKER_03We have a casement uh window behind us. Actually, it's a pillow casement window that we were looking at earlier, and it is it's a 0.3. Yeah, and it's a fairly large window. Now, if that was a fixed window, we probably would be somewhere around a 0.25.
SPEAKER_00Probably.
SPEAKER_03Um, which is a pretty tight window. Tight window. Um I think that is considered their maximum allowance. That's not just what that window blew. That's a series of tests over, and the highest one, that was that was it.
SPEAKER_02And that one's still gonna leak in certain environments. Yep. Absolutely well. So don't think that you get a this this number and this all magic sealed thing, that's not a reality.
SPEAKER_00The the only thing I think where that's not true is if you're buying a window in the coastal plains. If you're buying windows down there that are hurricane, hurricane stuff, that's a different window. We're not we're not gonna buy those for up here, typically.
SPEAKER_03Something else that plays into this a lot is the shipping, handling, and installation of this window. Yep. So say excuse me, say it was a.3, and you had some guys out there that were just trying to manhandle a window and not not handling it properly or carefully, uh, you know, kind of slamming around or picking it up by a corner and letting it have a lot of pressure on a vinyl window. Yeah, that that leakage may not be anywhere close to that point. Um, or even shipping, yeah, shipping, even shipping.
SPEAKER_02And depending on the quality of the vinyl and how they do the corners, they they would be internally cracked and you would not know. And so back then.
SPEAKER_03And you can tell a lot about a window just by the way it's packaged. Uh, if it's not packaged very well, probably not a window you want to put in. And the higher quality windows, the windows you pay a little bit more money for, if you pay attention, they are packaged very well because they know that's a big game changer for that window. So now we've gotten all four of those categories covered by the sticker, even though we don't see one of them here locally. Uh, we're supposed to be, but manufacturers aren't putting that on there, and that's the air leakage.
SPEAKER_00Uh the city's not demanding it.
SPEAKER_03No, so he's not demanding it. It's information you can find out, it's just not posted on that sticker. Now let's roll into the what we were talking about, how we've got different types of windows on maybe the south side of the house versus the north side of the house. This rolls into the performance, or you know, not necessarily using a prescriptive path because you may want a window that has really poor solar heat gain coefficient on one side of the house, right? And really good solar heat gain coefficient on the other side of the house, depending on the season that you're in, the angle of the sun, and what benefits you can get off of that.
SPEAKER_00And then uh you're all in overhang is gonna absolutely that's gonna uh do another part. I'm beginning to see a lot more on uh overhangs being uh installed more on, of course, the west side of the house. So uh where you won't see overhangs all the way around the window, but I am seeing them on the west side of the house to give them a little bit more shading to let that sun come down a little bit further to keep the window before it hits the window, and it and that's it's a two-part win because in the summertime you're blocking that overhead sun that's a more vertical sun here. True.
SPEAKER_03In the wintertime, that's a more lateral, you know, it's a lower sun angle, and it does allow some of that sun to come in the house when you need it in the wintertime, and so that lower solar heat gain coefficient in a house that's built with large overhangs can be helpful. Same thing with a house where you've got one side that's got a high solar heat gain. Maybe it's that west side, but your east side doesn't because it doesn't really need it.
SPEAKER_00Doesn't really need it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we've been looking at uh my son-in-law is really involved in this programming, but we do a uh a sun index of the job site in the house throughout the year, and and it's a graphic, and you can actually see where the sun is hitting and why. And depending on like that Delhart thing, we actually moved that house uh I don't know, 25 feet more away from that shop because that shop was shading that greenhouse.
SPEAKER_03Sure.
SPEAKER_02And that was something that Ryan had done, and and it there's a great graph with uh considering the season, the daylight savings, the whole bit. And and within the growth cycle of that room, we moved that house 25 feet. And that's something that uh that he brought up and I I had brought up because I have had to do I've had to do sun index testing, not necessarily for what we're talking about here, but in certain certain jurisdictions, you can't shade the next guy's yards. Yeah, and so if you're in a in a certain area of of uh where people are sunning themselves, let's say by the by the lake, and this other big house gets built, and that sun is blocking their their sunshine, that's a no-no. Yeah, so I've had to do sun indexes for that reason, but I didn't really consider them for this other reason. So doing that, it's a very simple some of you probably Google a program, it's not brain surgery, right? But then you could doing a sun index report on on your what you're doing and how it's coming is very, very helpful in designing house and locations. Absolutely, hugely important.
SPEAKER_03And you can you can plug that into like the 3D model and and actually see the shadow and cast, yeah.
SPEAKER_02He has it on, and you can actually it he turns into a YouTube little video and it goes and the calendar clicks on the bottom, and yep, pretty neat. And so so that's something to be considered.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we don't we don't do a lot of that up here.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I'm talking about from builder's point of view, yeah.
SPEAKER_00From builder's point of view, yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, and if you've got five foot setbacks and a house is there, well, that's a whole consideration, or it's not there, it's gonna be there, you know. I mean, that's the whole subdivision, that whole line is set for five foot setbacks, it's gonna fill up someday, you know. So those are just little side note considerations in in the world of design.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So speaking of design, we've we've kind of went over the parameters and the uh requirements of windows, but let's talk about the style and operations of windows. Let's go over that. Who wants to dive into it?
SPEAKER_02I I had a discussion just earlier in the week on that. We're we're closing in the sunroom. Um, there's a lot of houses here that have these little outdoor porches areas and then people want them closed in. And this uh homeowner wanted large floor-to-ceiling windows and thought it was a great idea to do a casement window, which kind of opens off either side. And um I said, you know, I'm not a fan of casement windows where there's a walkway because you're gonna run your face into it because you're looking down at your phone or you're bringing the barbecue in and you're gonna end up in the hospital with a big cut in your face. And so a casement is a great window, but if it's if you're in in a traffic pattern, you're walking, not a big fan. So I suggested to her, since I wanted the heat to get out anyway, I suggested to her high awnings. And and and she wanted the view, so I wasn't gonna go single hung. So so there's casements, there's high awnings, there's there's low single hung, there's all kinds of cool options. But in this interesting enough, in this particular case, I vetoed the casement and she understood the logic.
SPEAKER_00The the the code requires 24 inches on the hinge, 24 inches on the latch side, or a vertical or horse, I should say horizontal coming from a wall to door swing that those windows be tempered. That's already in the code. It's been in the code a long time.
SPEAKER_03And there's another, there's several more things that yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00There's more that that's considered there's a whole bunch of stuff about tempered glass.
SPEAKER_03That's that's a little subject.
SPEAKER_00But I was in reference to what he was talking about on the patio, and I I get that. And most of the of the guys here seem to do a pretty good job of getting. I have seen a tempered window get, you know, if you've got four windows and they're a solid pane window all the way across, and you've got four windows. I've come across where the framer or whoever put the tempered window down at the end and down here by the by the door, and I've had to say, uh nope, gotta switch them. Yeah, I've seen that before. So it's it and it happens.
SPEAKER_03It's it doesn't happen a lot, but for those that don't know about tempered, it it's like a car windshield. Right. When it breaks, it's it breaks into a lot of pieces, it's laminated together. Yeah, you're not having big pieces of glass fall on you that can cause a lot of damage. Um, I think most people are familiar with tempered, but they didn't know exactly what that is.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I'm imagine you're in the shower and you slip and you fall into the shower door, and it's actual glass and it cuts your arm off. That's bad news. That's bad news. So if it's tempered, you fall, or you've if you've seen videos, and maybe you've even had a case with someone you know accidentally ran right through a sliding glass door. I mean, I've seen it personally happen. Yeah, you know, um, kids are all on fire running as fast as they can, or someone slips and they go right through the door, they're shocked, but they're not cut, right? And the door's sitting in a pile on the ground, you're kind of going, okay, but if that wasn't a tempered glass, they would be not alive. You know, so that's the you've all seen that.
SPEAKER_00That's kind of the difference. The the one thing that I have to straighten out occasionally with homeowners is the difference between a frosted or rained pattern glass. Oh, that's tempered glass, not necessarily obscured glass. Obscured glass, obscured and tempered is not the same thing, so you have to make sure wherever you're putting that.
SPEAKER_02That's decorative glass.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_02So we have casement windows. Yep. Let me make another comment about casements. Uh-huh. It was something I didn't really understand until I moved to Amarillo, Texas. Really good point of view. Um, doing a takeoff with a window manufacturer. Maybe it was Pella. Probably was. Um, and so in casements, it's the same thing you guys just talked about a minute ago. Maybe a casement would seal better because the wind pulls it close. Right. Pretty good point. But on the opposite end of that point, if you are choosing placements of casements and you know the wind always comes from the southwest, then you're not gonna make that casement open where the wind's gonna break the casement. Right, you're gonna order a left or a right and locate them based on wind patterns. I didn't ever thought of that because I wasn't living in a windy environment.
SPEAKER_03Yep, put the casement hinge to the prevailing wind.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So that that's a uh there's a note, a good note, you know.
SPEAKER_00Casement hinge to the prevailing wind.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so they they swing open. I don't know if you guys have caught on that. We didn't actually just like a door, very similar to a door. Um, some of them will have a safety latch in case they are into a prevailing wind, that the window will only open a little bit when you crank it open, and then you've got to release that safety latch to open it the rest of the day.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then there's a whole thing with that has to be an easy thing because it's part of the egress.
SPEAKER_03That's right, kids gotta be able to do it.
SPEAKER_02It's a kid friendly latch, and there's something else regarding if it's over six feet from the ground.
SPEAKER_03There's a little code that we won't really get into, but yeah, you know, you have to be able to get uh the egress on the window, and then we have overhung windows, single and double, they're gonna operate similarly. Yeah, um, that's the classic window I think everybody knows, right? The bottom slash list.
SPEAKER_00I've got double hung, I'll never own them again.
SPEAKER_02Well, I they don't even hardly make double hung anymore. That's a thing. That's a thing of the time.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's these windows are 30 years old, so you can still buy them, but it's like, why?
SPEAKER_03The double hung is basically a single hung, but the upper window is operable for cleaning purposes.
SPEAKER_01Correct. But also for ventilation purposes because you can have that top cane down.
SPEAKER_03Very true. Uh, and ventilation, as far as the window goes, the ventilation always works better at the top of the window as opposed to the bottom of the window. So you can get awning windows that awning up or awning down, and if you're using it for ventilation, awning down is always gonna ventilate that house better.
SPEAKER_02Um the only downside of that is is the the rain it's true.
SPEAKER_03In Europe, they they awning in toward the house for that reason. Here, yeah, you you're not gonna open it in the rain, or you need a overhang over that window. Sure. Um and then they have tilt turn windows, which those are cool. It's kind of a combination of a casement and awning. So you turn the latch one way and the door swings in, or the window swings out. Uh, you turn the handle the other way and the door tilts out, or the window tilts out, excuse me. Um kind of a multi-function window, but it's gonna seal very much like a casement. They're good for cleaning, good for cleaning. Uh great, they're a great window, they're a really cool window. Yeah, that's a cool way.
SPEAKER_01So I think the only downside on casement and awning is screen placement.
SPEAKER_03You're gonna lose that whole the screen goes on the inside of the window, yeah. Um, and we have a lot of customers that will take the screens off after we put them up because they don't want to see they don't want it.
SPEAKER_02I can't tell you last time I had a customer that told me they put the screens on, they're in the box in the garage. No one wants screens, maybe maybe here possibly, but yeah, you know, in the view house, screens aren't a thing.
unknownTrue.
SPEAKER_03Honestly, people around here don't open windows very often. I wouldn't think so. If we did, you're either gonna be dealing with wind, and when you're not done with wind, you're done with dealing with bugs, bugs, and and uh yeah, and that's what the screens are for.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but they they definitely get dirty and they uh block the view. So uh in fact, that last we just finished. I'm like, he goes, What's that box over in the corner of the garage? I go, Those are your screens. He goes, Oh, huh. I go, they're yours. You know, I never put them on unless you want me to. He goes, No, no, no, I don't want them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there's nothing in the code book that requires it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um, you know, usually when we're designing a house, because of our climate and our conditions and just everything that that comes into play on that, we usually recommend that we do a fixed window everywhere we can, except for an egress window where we have to have it, because they don't get open very often. And a fixed window, well, which is another type of window, doesn't open, doesn't operate at all. Uh, it's gonna perform better, it's gonna last longer. You're gonna expensive, it's less expensive, doesn't have operation long term. You're gonna have less issues with it. Uh there's nothing to really repair on it, there's no maintenance on it. Um, and then the other type of windows we've got uh like sliding windows, yeah, sliders, sliders. It's just like a horizontal slider, yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's like a sliding glass door, but small.
SPEAKER_03It is an overhung window turned on the side almost. Yeah. Um what it was those are ugly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they're pretty ugly. They don't never work real well.
SPEAKER_03And there's specialty windows like the um the folding windows. Oh, yeah. You get like a panoramic window that folds in sections, and you've got a big opening.
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah, we we love different construction materials too. I mean, we see vinyl a lot more out here, but I mean I used to sell aluminum windows and real high-end windows.
SPEAKER_00And there are some pretty expensive aluminum windows that people there don't really know they exist.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, Shukko makes a really nice aluminum window.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_03Um, we have so yeah, we've got vinyl, aluminum, wood, fiberglass, wood clad, fiberglass, composite. Uh they all have their ups and downs, and they all have their price ranges. And um, it's it's hard to classify one better than the other, it just depends on the situation.
SPEAKER_02A lot of it has to do with price point and budget. It's very true. You know, so you might want the trickest best window, but your budget and your price point is anywhere close to that. And so, you know, they they fit into these little chunks of price points. You know, you don't be looking at that one. Sorry, you your your budget doesn't allow it. You this is where we're at. It's a good window, but it's not this. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Um, I mean, uh uh and it wouldn't matter if you got a good window or not, if the thing's not installed correctly, it doesn't matter what you put in.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's the best best way to ruin a window, real quick, is not to install it.
SPEAKER_00And I've had my seen a share of them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's always been a thing. The only other things that before we get into the installation, I want to talk about is we briefly mentioned triple pane. So oh yeah, almost every window is gonna at least be a double pane, um, which just it's just two pieces of glass. Um, and it's a it's a a glazed unit. That's actually that piece of glass is a um it comes that way sealed in and it's it's a cube, not a cube, but I don't know how else to explain it.
SPEAKER_02It is a piece of glass, it's a dividing bar, and then there's another piece of glass that's sealed together, and that's and that's your unit, and and the thickness be between is a variable. It is, you know, you can you order them. Uh it probably has to do with all the rating stickers again, three quarters to one inch to you know, probably at one inch is about the wise I've seen them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're still filled with argon.
SPEAKER_00It can be argon, it can. I can't even think one of the other get something. There's something one different than Argon. Argon's the popular for sure, and we know it's there, yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, we use Argon around here. A lot of window manufacturers that ship nationwide use it because of the elevation changes, changes won't crack the glass in shipment. Um, I didn't think about that. We use it for uh an extra added R value, right? But I think why it caught on is for shipment purposes. Yeah. Um and then we've got triple pane glass, and that's three sheets of glass. We've got STC glass, which is similar to a triple pane, but the third sheet is usually not a glass. It's uh two different sizes, pieces, two different size pieces of glass, and a lot of times like a plastic laminate. And the way that works is when frequency hits a certain thickness, part of that some frequencies won't go through a certain thickness. And so when you change and add another variable of thickness through it, that frequency doesn't continue. It'll stop three different ranges of frequencies with three different thicknesses, which makes it a sounds trap sounds transmission transmission control. I can't remember how I might have butchered that, but STC is two block sound out. So if if you're say you're living on a busy highway and you put STC windows in, right, your house is gonna be a lot quieter than it would otherwise. That's kind of the um the really uh skimmed over version of how that works, but it does work very well. Now we can get into the installation and I'll go back to Low E. Low E has to do with um it's a glass film. It is a glass film, it is what controls in our case our solar heat gain coefficient. Think of it as almost a window tint that you can see through. It's on the inside of the glass. It's actually silver, is what it is. Um little strips of silver that are put into a film that go onto the glass or the glasses liquid dipped into it, however, it is, but it's uh it's on. It's it's on. Oh yeah, it's on, it doesn't really come off. Doesn't you don't have access to scratch it because it's usually on the inside of the glazed unit itself. Um but I think the primary unit for that, or the primary material for how it works is microscopic silver.
SPEAKER_00I've never looked at it that close. No, we we typically, I mean, even when I see some of the higher end manufacturers, Pella being one of them. Uh if you don't dive into their full description of that window, you're not absolutely 100% sure. Double pane with low E, Argon, you know, it they'll spell it out for you.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00They spell it out for you. You're paying for it. Yeah, you're paying for it.
SPEAKER_02That's extra. I mean, it's something we're mentioning before we started the podcast on on low E is you see it from the outside, you definitely see this tint.
SPEAKER_04Tint. It's a tint.
SPEAKER_02And different manufacturers, let's say you have a door with a big big glass door or panoramic door, they might not get their glass from the same company that someone else gets their glass, or they manufacture their own glass, and that lowy tint color might not be the same. You stand back and look at your your finished window wall, a gigantic view window wall, and this gorgeous door has a different hue. Than the windows. Just be aware of that. That's a factor, not to pun on the factor thing.
SPEAKER_03No, that's a that's a good point. Fact door. Nobody wants to spend sixty thousand dollars on a you know curtain wall windows and then have a door that's a different color.
SPEAKER_00Um that would upset me. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_03And usually, usually as long as you stick with those same manufacturers and spell that out, you can get that resolved.
SPEAKER_02But I mean, then now we got these beautiful panoramic doors, you know, that aren't necessarily going to be provided by the same window manufacturer. There's some very super super trick panoramic doors that don't make windows, and they're not gonna cater to your glass needs. So just something if you're into low E, be aware.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So installation. There's really two main types of installation, right? So we got a flanged window and a flangeless window. They're gonna be installed differently. Um, but outside of that, a lot of the flashing, the waterproofing, the fastening techniques are gonna be very, very similar.
SPEAKER_00They're very similar.
SPEAKER_03Um, so I'm gonna start with uh how we typically would install uh at Caprock Design build our windows on a flanged window. Um and we are as you guys know, when we talked about framing, we're commonly using the zip system. And you know, again, Huber's our sponsor as well. Um that's a part of their product that they've got. And so we we would flash the rough opening of that with either uh one of zip systems tapes, a stretch tape, whatever it is, but that rough opening has a flashing that is waterproofing the edges of that window right before the window goes on. Right. Then in new construction, typically we're putting in a uh nail-finned window, and so that window would be inserted into that opening, and you are used to see a lot of nails going in, it's a nail-fin window. We typically use a painthead screw just so we're not smacking glass, and you get a little bit wider holding area with the painthead. Um you don't like waffle marks on your frame? Yeah, I try to stay away from that. Um and then after that window is installed from the outside, we'll tape three sides of it, right? So top and then two sides, and we're lapping that tape.
SPEAKER_00In which order are you doing that? Two sides. So two sides and then the top. Okay, there you go.
SPEAKER_03So that way that you're flashing that tape in a manner that you're not creating a path for water to get behind.
SPEAKER_02It's typical shingle method, yeah. Yeah, is what it is.
SPEAKER_03Um and you're, you know, of course, you're gonna center the window up and level the window and all the things that go into that as well. But talking on the waterproof side, usually you would see uh window manufacturer go back in and use like a can of spray foam to fill the gaps on the framing. We've we've kind of gone away from the spray foam and we use a foam backer rod and insert and fill that window, and then we'll use um uh product called Lexo, which is just a good silicone product, and silicone that window in from the inside to prevent it's kind of the third uh layer of defense. If the water gets behind the cladding and then gets behind the flashing on the tape of the window, it's still being protected by the rough opening flashing from penetrating the wood, and then we silicone and it's helping your air sealing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was gonna say the air sealing side. The back or backer rod is a good way to go.
SPEAKER_03Backer rod, and then the silicone with silicone to the window to the rough opening flashing. So there's no way that if water got behind all of those components, it's still being stopped by that silicone inside that flashing tape, so it would never be touching the wood. So I don't know if people understand what the word backer rod means. Backer rod is is is literally it sounds metal, doesn't it? It kind of does, but it's not, it's no, it's a foam tube that comes in a spool, yeah. About 500 feet long and don't drop it. Different sizes, you know, quarter inch, three-eighths, half inch, whatever you need.
SPEAKER_02So you're tucking that between the framing and the window, and and it does the air sealing, plus it takes up space, so you don't use 10 tubes of caulking to caulk it in.
SPEAKER_03And it doesn't have a rated insulated number on it, but it is but you know it's good, but it is a foam, and you know it's gonna be helping.
SPEAKER_00Well, and if you read on a lot of those, it is a combination of an open cell and closed cell material. So, I mean, or you can buy all closed cell if you want to pay the price.
SPEAKER_03It's or you they I think they make uh I don't know if it's polypropylene, like a rubber-based baccarat.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, they do.
SPEAKER_03But the reason we like it is because sometimes sometimes that window is not dead centered to the rough opening, or the rough opening has a little bit of a tilt to it, and so maybe you've got an eighth-inch gap between the framing and the window on one side and a half inch on the other, whatever it is, right? Sometimes that that's typical though, it is, and sometimes that spray foam nozzle, it's really, really hard to get very much spray foam and that little you know, 16th inch or really depending there again on in this installation.
SPEAKER_02The guy that's doing the spray foam is is on the phone or listening to music, the little nozzle, and as long as it gets a squirt, he he's out of there to the next window.
SPEAKER_03He's just trying to make it look like it's got it on there, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And it and you can peel that little piece off, and it's nothing back there.
SPEAKER_03There's nothing back there, right?
SPEAKER_02So the backer rod is tucked in, yep, tight, pushed in tight, and in in aside from any values or any kind of it's one of those kind of interesting common sense things that anybody looking at it who knows nothing about anything will go, oh yeah, it makes sense. Yep, you know, so it's it's a better way to go.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and that's that's really our typical windstone window installation, unless we're doing a remodel, and um, then a lot of times we're we're stuck.
SPEAKER_02No fines.
SPEAKER_03We're we're we're trying to, yeah, no fins, and we're trying to do like an inset modification that we can seal in.
SPEAKER_02And don't move the brick, whatever, blah blah blah. Yeah, it's not the same. Remodel, we don't want to talk about it.
SPEAKER_03They're basically glued into a hole. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Let's just say they're good, yeah. Two screws on the sides and maybe one at the top.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and it's glued into a hole.
SPEAKER_02They're glued into a hole, and it's that's a really brutal way to say the truth. It is they're especially let's not talk about it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, uh yeah. There's there's I mean, you have to do it. There's expensive ways that you could go, right?
SPEAKER_02There's no other way about it. You have to do it.
SPEAKER_03You could remove brick clouding or you're not gonna do that though.
SPEAKER_02Um gosh, for instance, you know, on that same note, you know, we were we're here in the panhandle, and last week we had a big hail storm and um it just missed our our town. You know, it's about six miles away, so it hit that town pretty hard. Talking to someone that lives out there, and it was pretty good hail this time, and it took out all of his window frames, you know, and uh it's a brick house. So all of that is a fairly new house. So all that good flashing that we just talked about, all that tape, all that stuff, it's gone now. Yeah, you know, it's now glue in a hole.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so that that that's uh an interesting thing with with uh the frames that work really well with hell around here are those fiberglass frames. I bet they would. They have seen some. I've been told uh by some of our manufacturers that they've taken in like grapefruit size hell, and of course the glass is gone, but the frame is. I can see that.
SPEAKER_02I can see that the vinyl, we know that. You can actually get that with a hammer and you'd be broke, and you're like, you know, I don't know around here, but we had a guy that was the same guy that would fix the chip in your bathtub. He was a vinyl repair guy, and he'd go around and he did a really great job inlaying pieces of vinyl when you your framework accidentally whacked it with the waffle hammer before screws, you know. So um, they were very vulnerable. The fiberglass is a better hail protection product, and obviously aluminum, and you know, go from there. But uh, yeah, this this storm just trashed this guy's most brand new house.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_00Um, what else do we have on Windows? One little thing we haven't talked about and we don't see very often is back damming.
SPEAKER_03Back damming.
SPEAKER_00Yep. That is something that is so simple to do, but it is skipped 99% of the time.
SPEAKER_02It's a specialty thing of sorts.
SPEAKER_03So back damming is when you have a rough opening, usually what's gonna happen is there's gonna be a piece of inset wood on the inside of where that window frame is gonna sit on the interior of the house.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_03What that's for, and you would usually have a flashing lapped over that as well, waterproofing. What would happen is again, this is kind of that third layer of defense that we were talking about.
SPEAKER_02It gets behind the cladding, it gets through the window flashing, that's where the actual weld uh in the corners of the vinyl isn't good in shipping, something no one saw, and that window is always gonna leak in the corner right from the very beginning. You never see it, and you never see it, and you've done all the beautiful things, and you've done everything you can do, it makes no difference. That is gonna leak in that corner. Yep, it's unfortunate, and so a back dam won't let that water come back into the house.
SPEAKER_03All the yes, that's right. It keeps it in that rough opening, and it's just a raised and since you since you don't tape the bottom, it's got a way out, it's got a way out. That's very important to not tape the bottom. We didn't really go over that. But um, two reasons. One, a lot of the weep holes of windows are at the bottom are at the bottom. So when you tape them when it rains, you're automatically sending that back into the house. Game over. And two, if it does get behind the window, it's not about keeping water out, it's about letting water out, and you have to have a path to let water out.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Um, uh, as far as installation, the only thing we didn't touch on with Pella that I finally let me touch, finish up on this back dam.
SPEAKER_02Oh, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A little tidbit you would think about. So you have your rough opening, and your window usually comes a half inch smaller all the way around, and you center it and you fit it in there, and you put this piece of half inch back dam. Good idea. We all think it's a great idea, and then you go to case that window from the inside. Now your reveals are off. If you know what I'm saying, because now you're putting that bottom piece of trim that sill a half inch higher. So the vinyl expose that you're gonna see between the wood and the vinyl is different than the sides in the top. So you can either make your RO half inch higher or you can fur in the other three sides, and then you're gonna be taking up almost too much of the vinyl, and the reveal will look weird. So, you know, pen run that through your head as you as you're a finished carpenter now with that hat on and look at that opening. You're gonna go, reveal. I I'm I'm a picky guy on reveals, just as you are. I want the reveal to be perfect as close as you can get at when they build that box, and it's not you're gonna miss it by half of an inch on the bottom and not the toe sides in the top. Oh yeah. So just if you're doing backdams, go that extra half a mile.
SPEAKER_03I've also seen where they will reverse a shim and use a shim as a back dam, and then they turn the the other shim around the other way, so the window's got a level spot to fit on, but it's actually creating a dam, back dam for that, and that would help also solve because you would set your seal flush with that shim, which is gonna be level with everywhere else around that way.
SPEAKER_00And I've also seen like a little like a little bead of cock, or I mean, you and I are Lexel guys, so yeah, that's and that's why we another reason we use that Lexel, it does form a back dam at that point.
SPEAKER_03You're sealing that window to the outside. Um about back damage, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, one of the things that I finally got a clue on, and now we've seen it at IBS and we've seen it at Bill Show Live is Pella's ready set. Yeah, and steady set, yeah, steady set. And I I finally got to see some in in a house where oh my god, you can teach a 12-year-old how to put a window in and it's perfect all the way around. There's you don't have to worry about trying to, well, I gotta shim this side up, and I and and I've got to make sure it takes out all of the guesswork and it installs from the end, screws in from the inside for it's a safety install on a second floor. Are you kidding me?
SPEAKER_03Well, one other super cool factor about it is is the window flange is not what you're installing it for anymore, and it's got a cover, so you insert the window into the opening, and then you go outside and you pull the window flange covers off, and they come out. They're all it's one piece, there's no seams, they're folded in, and you're not penetrating them.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_03So now you have a really good flashing area surface for the outside to seal. No screws needed, no screws, and that's the only thing reason you have to go on the outside of the window is to flash it.
SPEAKER_00That's it, and that's it. But you're not holding the window up. Nope, not holding a window.
SPEAKER_02There's it's a super and really, depending on what you're doing if you're siding this and that, you get your guy can do it later.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, it's in the panic that the windows now need to be, you know, while you're there and you're putting a flange window in, you have to do all the tape thing. Hey, well, you know, the flange is there when you're up there on the scaffolding and you're moving up on whatever here tape the window while you're there.
SPEAKER_03And because they stall from the inside, there's clips to keep you from pushing it to the outside so it can't fall out. And then there's a um I can't remember really kind of another clip, a spring that keeps the window once it's in the hole, it catches on the framing and it won't allow the window to fall back in. So it's once it's in the hole, it's not falling out, it's a really safe window to install. It's yeah, it's a really smart concept that Bella's come up with. And yeah, so there's a there's an L-shaped bracket that that screws on to the frame of the window, and then when you push it into the rough opening, that L-shape meets the framing, and the other side of the L is on the window, and then you would screw that to the rough opening, and that's how that window's being held in place. So technically it's probably even a more secure window because it's not an uh plastic or thin nailing fin on the outside, it's a metal bracket screwed directly to the window that's holding it.
SPEAKER_02The fin is in the pattern. Yeah, they do the fin is in the same place. Yeah, the fin is now just a flashing. It's just a it's not uh hold me up.
SPEAKER_03Yep, yep. Um I've I got to install one at uh at Pellas Factory, which was when they were right before they released it to the public, and it is uh it's as easy as it sounds. Uh you can watch somebody do it, and the next guy can go do the next 10 perfectly. Um but I think we're kind of wrapped up on windows.
SPEAKER_00I think we've covered windows.
SPEAKER_03Doors, we don't have much to cover on doors. Everybody knows how a door works. There's a few codes that are required, you know.
SPEAKER_00Garage entry doors have to be uh on a spring hinge and weather weather sealed, and yeah, and I and I'll tell you the door between the garage and a conditioned space. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. That has if you better look because they I think in the 21 code they took them out. Now the 24 code, they put them back in. As far as being weather strips, no, being the the hinged the spring hinge, yeah.
SPEAKER_02The spring hinge you're talking about fire rating stuff. Fire rating, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so but that's part of doors, and it's supposed to be at least a minimum of a 20-30-minute door.
SPEAKER_03The the they are fire rated the spring hinge. The reason people don't like it's because they're carrying groceries carrying groceries, you bring your groceries into the garage, and every time you've got to try to open that door up with a hand.
SPEAKER_02But it makes all the sense in the world. But what's the point of a firewall if the if you have a big hole in it doesn't automatically close and make the firewall continue? Fire rated assembly. I I've been totally a fan of it, and I've had it hit me in the nose and the face and the butt carrying stuff. But I'm like, well, at least I know the car starts on fire, which I've had fire restoration experience, you know, and at least I know that the it's the same code while we're doing the ceilings in five eights in case the car starts on fire. So why would you take your time and effort to do the ceiling if there's a living space above and have a door that stays open?
SPEAKER_00Right. No, I'm I'm not some of I'm not arguing with you on it. I'm just saying some of that stuff goes comes in and out just right based from one thing. It's kind of like the receptacle on an island. I don't want to get into that, but it's the same deal. But it I'm still a fan of the boomerang hinges being on those doors, and I I want them to close. I I just do. I think it's it's smart, and um but you know they're saying you gotta have at least a minimum 30-inch wide door on the front of a door, front of a house. And I mean, yeah, there's there's codes for the size of door, uh height of a ceiling, and which is the height of a door. So I would say those are things that I think we take for granted that we probably shouldn't. You know, we need to pay attention to so you're talking about man doors, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So so you can actually blend doors and windows together. You know, for instance, Pella, I just did two of their 12 foot um quad sliders, they're a door, but they're a window.
SPEAKER_03Right and they have walkthrough windows, they're actually a window, but it's a door, it's a door, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So that there's a fine line, you know. You would you go to a window manufacturer for a door? Yeah, for sure you would, you know.
SPEAKER_03Um, maybe even preferably the same for your window same.
SPEAKER_02Preferably, oh, for sure. You know, so that there's that.
SPEAKER_03Uh not it's not the case for interior doors, though. No, so interior doors, but exterior doors, a lot of window manufacturers also make exterior doors.
SPEAKER_02And it's good, it's good to kind of stay all in the same family on those. That's unless you want to get into the really cool panoramic stuff. You know, they're those whole those folks don't necessarily make windows, they're really high-end panoramics. You can get a window manufacturer to give you a panoramic, but it might not be what you're looking for as far as the high-end panoramic. So there's a little difference in doors that are not a man door, right? They're they're a window door, they're a window door, you know. So there's that. Um, there's metal doors. Yeah, we've been seeing a lot of metal doors. I've done a few metal doors. That's uh a whole interesting concept of itself. You know, there's they don't really test those, there's no sticker on them.
SPEAKER_00Not not unless they're fire rated. If they're one hour fire rated, they're they've got a sticker on them.
SPEAKER_02Well, no, these are entry doors, right? I get doors, and they're coming from out of out of the country.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you're talking about the or metal metal doors, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, they're talking about front doors, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, the front doors.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so so there's uh when you normally see a sticker on a on a true value uh or uh uh you know some sort of I say true value because that's not a name, but that's probably a name I should use, so I shouldn't use names. But uh um, you know, I can get a sticker on those doors. No, and then you hope they put foam inside, and they maybe they did.
SPEAKER_00Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so there's uh those types of doors that are out there, and they're fairly popular, yeah. You know, interesting enough.
SPEAKER_01So I've seen some of those that have like a pivot hinge, it's about six inches in.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_01I feel like that would be a nightmare to keep sealed. You guys run into that.
SPEAKER_02Um interesting enough, and the seal isn't as bad as you think, but what is a nightmare is that seal sweeps on the threshold right and takes the paint off. So it looks bad. They're really cool. I don't know if they're cool for the factor that you're gonna it doesn't really make the door open anymore.
SPEAKER_03Part of it is when they put that pivot hinge, then you can get into really large scale doors. Sure. I'm talking like 10 foot tall, seven foot wide doors, because that that style hinge can support it.
SPEAKER_02500-pound uh pivot, yeah. That one idea is that big, easy. So um I don't typically typically see those. Not I do once in a while, but not typically. Yeah, I mean, uh I think they're more of a uh I don't know, a cool gimmick. Yeah, people are like, oh, I got pivot door. Oh okay. Oh nice, you know. Well what's that? Yeah, you know, um I see it. You can't you can't screen them.
SPEAKER_01That's true.
SPEAKER_02You know, like if it's a front door and you want to do a uh a safety door or some sort of screen, forget it. You know, so but uh I don't know, I don't have anything bad to say about them.
SPEAKER_00I know they're but it's just another it's another product.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's a reason for it, they're cool. Yeah, you're right. I mean, you see some of these ones on these crazy real estate shows out of LA or something, and they're they're bigger than the whole house. You drive a car through it, yeah, and it's pivoting on one pivot. Yeah, you know, so I mean they're they're cool. Um any other door fun door fun facts. Um I mean, we don't need to care about hardware, we don't care about any of that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_01Well, Lilla doesn't sell garage doors, so maybe not.
SPEAKER_02It used to, I believe. Really? Yeah, but they don't mean overhead man overhead doors, or well, if that's not a leak in a hole in the wall, I don't know what is. We only want to talk about that. That's interesting. We I guess we could talk briefly about that. I've had a lot of people spec out that really cool look like you see at the coffee shop where the overhead glass glass doors are there, you know. And um, that's that's a really good look. And it's kind of fun. Let's say if you had an outdoor patio. Sure. You're out of the building envelope and you're out there and you want to do this thing, I'm all about it. But to put one of those in in the actual building envelope and expect it not to leak like a sieve, it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. So keep keep that in mind.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, um I've talked to a couple of the garage door guys just because I wanted to know if they made the track or not.
SPEAKER_02Didn't you have one drawn up in one in your place at one point?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think you did the sealed doors. Yeah, the sealed that track that has the little bump in it so that when the door comes down, it pushes it up against the absolutely now. I think that makes a lot of sense, but that's not something we typically see. Yeah, we see just a regular track. Oh, for sure. You know, we put this wide a vinyl around it, and hey, we've got a sealed door.
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh, they're not sealed.
SPEAKER_00No, they're not even close.
SPEAKER_02Talk about slamming the garage man door, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Wow. I do, I do. I mean, as far as garage doors and things, we we did see some things at the Pareto homes that was pretty nice as far as real quiet motors and the variable speed motors are as trick as it gets though.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, yeah, they're not no chain drive. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but but that's not exactly what we're talking about today.
SPEAKER_03We're filling holes, but we're filling holes. Joe's Parada home garages were open or had cameras on it. Yeah, there you go. So you could look and see if the car was in the garage. Yeah, yeah, there you go. If I'm looking to see if my car is in the garage, I hopefully I know. Yeah, because I was the one drive.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I guess if you had a 16-year-old, you might want to see what time they came in.
SPEAKER_02Um I think in this area, what uh I've only done a couple times, but I think is a very good idea, is a door closer on these exterior doors. The wind here is just crazy. Oh, yeah, and you're ripping hinges, you know. Yep. And so a nice door closer, I've got commercial, pretty simple door closer, is almost something that we would all want to consider, you know, no matter where you are, you know.
SPEAKER_01I've replaced the little pneumatics on my storm door like probably three times.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but these are like a commercial hydraulic door closer, like you see at the at the grocery store, whatever. You know, that that's something we can do a little more in the residential world and help out. Yeah, you know, I I don't know that they're that much money and then they really make a big difference on one or two doors in a home. Big deal. Yeah, it makes you take a little step above the group, and your customer would really appreciate that.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think that's all we got for finish trace. That's all I can think of.
SPEAKER_02On the on the man doors, yeah, there's inswing and out swing. Oh, yeah. That's a little bit of a talk and why and and we and the the pitfalls of one versus the other.
SPEAKER_03Here, I don't think we're required to have in or out. We can have either. I know on coastal they have to be outside they swing out on a coastal because of the pressure they want that frame there holding that door and not be able to blow in, so therefore the roof doesn't blow off, but it is a requirement there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't see very many uh outswings, front door outswings, not no, no, not necessarily the front door, but just other man doors.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, I've had them called out on outswings and and scratch my head and thinking why would I want to outswing?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you can't outswing over a set of stairs.
SPEAKER_02Sorry, can't do that. Nope. But um one advantage to an outswing is it's harder for someone to break into your house.
SPEAKER_00True, because they can't kick it in.
SPEAKER_02They can't ram it in, they can't kick it in. You know, so that's a I've had people request that for me on a security note. No, I want an outswing door because I don't think anybody's gonna get in very fast. I'm like, you're right. I I couldn't get into it. You know, um, when you do an outswing door, uh the sill is no longer outside, it's inside your building and it makes your floor look weird.
SPEAKER_00Your transition isn't I was gonna say the transitions come strange, kind of strange.
SPEAKER_02So keep that in mind what you're doing on your flooring, if you're doing an outswing door where you got floor transitions, you're not so much in the garage.
SPEAKER_01But um then you can't do a storm door or screen or anything on it.
SPEAKER_02Sure. I mean, I guess a little tougher. Yeah, so so I um I've had to use them because of just clearances. Inswing door is gonna hit the fender of the car, right? You know, on a garage man door, they want to be able to get in and out of the corner of the garage. Well, uh someone's gonna go wham and it's gonna hit the fender. So I guess we have to do outswing. So that that's an interesting uh option. I don't know where that came from, but I've I've done them over the years. Outswing doors. I see them occasionally, but not very often. Well, but there's a need for them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um well, does that fill all the holes with the fenestration podcast?
SPEAKER_02Um well, we did the um the delivery vault. That was a hole. You know, so uh we we had we had we did a delivery vault. So if you're you have a UPS guy coming or whatever it is, it was a big delivery vault door and keypad, and then opened up and then they delivered their package of the pizza and close it off, and that was uh penetration that didn't have fins of any sort. It was a really cool piece that was maybe designed to sit on a stick out by the yard, and so it was a retrofit into the building. Um, just thinking in my head, what are the holes that we filled?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I can't.
SPEAKER_00I mean, still patio doors, we see those, and you know, there's different well, there's a lot of difference in patio doors from one manufacturer to another, too, and a quality and just like windows. You know, they but as as a whole, I I mean I can't think of anything else to cover.
SPEAKER_03I mean, let's wrap this one up. Let's call it an episode. Um again, we want to thank our sponsors, uh, Huber Engineered Woods and Pella Windows Indoors. Thank you. Um they didn't give us enough money to buy you a shirt this week, did they? Maybe next time, Joel.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, check your sponsorship. We need to have we should have had Pella shirts today. We yeah, we probably we need to get some Hebrew shirts and some Pella shirts so we can uh you know provide support for our sponsors. That's what we need. Why don't you Ben? Would can you get on that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, on it. Okay, good. Got it covered, covered.
SPEAKER_00Thank you very much. Y'all have a great day. Thanks so much.
SPEAKER_03We'll see you next time on uh TPBA Builder Talk Podcast. All right, see ya.