Exterior Wall Cladding

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SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to the Texas Panhandle Builders Association TPBA Builder Talk Podcast, where we'll bring you expert advice from the heart of Amarella Building community. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting in the trade, our goal is to keep you informed on the ever-evolving building codes, share best practices, and help you excel in your craft. From innovative design ideas to smart material selections and everything in between, we're here to support you in every aspect of home building. Each episode, we'll dive into topics that matter most to builders, contractors, industry, professionals, ensuring that you stay ahead of the curve in this rapidly changing landscape. Our discussions are shaped by the experiences and knowledges of our hosts and guests, providing you valuable perspectives that you can apply directly to your work. The views and the opinions expressed are those of the host and the guests that may not always reflect the most up-to-date or accurate information. Let's build something great together, one conversation at a time. And welcome back to the TPBA Builder Talk Podcast. Joel, are you awake over there? Hi, I'm Joel from FTD Homes.

SPEAKER_05 1:09

I'm Robert with RDS Inspection Service. Ben with Southwest Sales.

SPEAKER_03 1:14

And I'm Jordan with Caprock Design Build. If you made it through our intro, we've got an exciting topic today, one that we're all passionate about. And I think uh there's gonna be some stuff to learn, some some insights.

SPEAKER_05 1:29

That's why this white hair is here, is because we can't seem to get some things right. I think the white hair is ever because you've overlearned. You've learned too much. I hope, but it hasn't happened yet.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Um the the topic for today, uh, if you're listening on you know any of the mainstream channel podcasts, you can see that it's exterior wall cladding. Uh, and we want to talk about what we're doing here that's right, what we're doing here that's wrong, uh, maybe some ways to change it up and and go about it and make it better. Um but what is wall cladding?

SPEAKER_04 2:06

Why don't you guys it's the skin? Right? It's what looks good. Technically, if you build your house, this is my thoughts. If you build your house correct and it's flashed, and plus what you do with your zip tape, the cladding doesn't need to be there, right? It it's it's just uh I guess it's a line of defense to a certain extent, you know, but it's uh it's the skin, it's the beauty.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

It's the it's usually the primary UV block, right?

SPEAKER_04 2:31

Right, so it's the first line of defense for sure.

SPEAKER_05 2:33

For that, it is not the it is not the water control layer, nope, and it's also not a structural layer.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

No, well, I mean, you unless you did like a tremonry wall, but we don't. We don't well, not in reservoir. We're just talking about wood. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 2:50

Um but I'm saying in today's world, we do not build a double brick wall for we we use brick as a brick veneer, we use siding, we use stone that is still not structural, it's still a veneer, and some some masonry stuccoa, and a whole lot of ethos, and a whole lot of ethos, yeah. We're doing more.

SPEAKER_03 3:15

Um but it's it's again, it's not the water control air, it's not the air control air, it's not the structural. Nope. It is the you know, the UV protector of of the stuff beneath it, right?

SPEAKER_05 3:27

Um, it's an architectural layer.

SPEAKER_03 3:29

It it is, it's for looks, right? It's for looks, yeah. Um so that's cladding. That's cladding.

SPEAKER_04 3:36

All right, tune in next week.

SPEAKER_03 3:37

Uh we know about cladding. Uh, which one do you want to dive into first?

SPEAKER_04 3:44

Well, I I I we we do brick. Yeah, let's talk about brick since there's a lot of brick, and you're passionate about certain aspects of brick that you you do and don't like. So uh let's let's do brick.

SPEAKER_03 3:55

So, okay, let's let's start with brick. Brick, um, putting it on as a veneer. It's got uh an air gap behind it, it's fastened on with brick ties to the structural wall.

SPEAKER_05 4:06

And how much is that air gap supposed to be?

SPEAKER_03 4:08

One inch.

SPEAKER_05 4:09

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

Um there's a drain plane at the bottom. There's flashing, there's a little gravel, there's a little this, a little that, there's weep holes, and so it's not glued right to the building. No, it's not, it's just hanging out, and it's not holding the wall up. No, and then a lot of times it's not holding itself up, right? And you don't put enough ties in it.

SPEAKER_03 4:29

Or if there's not a brick ledge, a proper brick ledge, it'll pull the wall down.

SPEAKER_04 4:33

Right, and or it's sitting in the dirt. Right. Um, so a brick ledge, we can barely just touch on that. Sure, it just allows the brick to be out of the dirt and not go all the way down to the rickety little footing down there, and it gives it a nice clean, it looks like a little bit of flat work at a nice clean surface, and you your dirt and your grass and everything aren't just piling on the brick, and then you know, so it's that's a brick ledge, but that's a veneer thing.

SPEAKER_05 4:58

But some people wonder why in some parts of the city they're having a flooding issue into their wall because their grass finally collects enough dirt that it overwhelms the weep hole. I've seen and brick is porous, and brick is still porous.

SPEAKER_04 5:16

Oh, yeah, and then they don't get they don't grade the dirt away from it, they just dump it into it. So a brick ledge is a is a great way to go, but that's kind of a side subject.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

It is our brick ledge, the pain handle foundation guideline brick ledge is the footing, it's the footing, that is right offset footing, and on the guideline below grade. Well, on the guideline it shows that great starts at the top of the footing, but that's not how it's that's not how buildings work, right?

SPEAKER_04 5:42

You can't that's a mistake on the drawing.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

It is a mistake on the drawing, yes. Um, which results into backfilling against a brick wall, and there's usually the first and game over it's game over, yeah. First two layers are backfilled against two brick rows.

SPEAKER_05 5:57

Oh, but I gotta have that flower bed right up against my footing in my brick wall. Hold on. And let's put a wiring system. Yeah, let's put a watering system in. Here we go.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

Anyways, back to the veneer.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

We can run that down to the next hour, but so you're saying that it's attached with the the ties, it's attached with the ties, uh, and then it runs up the wall into a brick pocket. Um and at the soffit. At the soffit. Okay, that's that's the basics of a brick wall. Um, we have a lot of issues with our brick walls. And and here's the deal: it wasn't a big deal with the way we used to build, right?

SPEAKER_05 6:36

True.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

When we had houses that were open and no air control layer, and we weren't using spray foam, and insulation was on the ceiling level. That that wall was pretty dang forgivable, right? It it could allow air to go through it, you know, vapor drive from the sun would come up. That brick pocket had a hole in it between the wall shooting layer and the soffit, but we're venting it out through the roof system.

SPEAKER_04 7:00

Vapor drive. Vapor drive. Oh, that's it's like one continuous soffit vent.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

Yeah, it basically is a soffit vent from the bottom of the wall all the way to the peak of the roof, and all the way around the house.

SPEAKER_04 7:10

And it it worked to an extent.

SPEAKER_03 7:13

Yeah, I mean, it worked, but building has evolved, and now we're paying attention to things like the air control layer, the water control layer, the thermal vapor, all those, right? And so supposed to be we all that building science stuff, all that building science stuff, and we and products have changed, and we've either you know learned those new products, or we just started putting them on in place and and building the same way, and that's where the issues come up, right? So now we've got the zip wall sheathing on most of our builds around here, but we're doing the break the exact same way, and then we've added spray foam to it.

SPEAKER_04 7:47

We got vent, we have a non-vented roof, we have a non-vented vented roof, roof system, and then and that's the kicker, it's a whole different game.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

So it doesn't matter that we've got weep holes at the bottom because we're not necessarily even talking about bulk water, we're talking about vapor, right? And so condensation sprinklers come on in the morning and blast the brick wall, and the sun comes out and drives the moisture through. Vapor drive drives the moisture up the wall right into the bottom of the spray foam. And the spray foam turns into a giant sponge, it does right up against the wood framing, which is gonna cause mold and rot, and health issues, and durability issues, and structural issues. And it's never been addressed. Nobody's talking about this.

SPEAKER_04 8:29

So uh uh there's a complicated fix and there's an easy fix. Sure. So it would be the easy fix just to be continue your soffit tight to the wall sheeting, tape it and seal that that section you're talking about up. Correct. That'd be that'd be the simple.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

So you want to take you want to have uh your water, air, and vapor control layer going from the wall across the soffit and tie it back into at least your subfascia. Um, technically, your your roof would also be your water and air control layer as well. Um that fixes that if you add another ventilation hole at the top of the wall for convection. For convection, because you don't want to just drop moisture vapor up, even though you've sealed it, now you got a dead end. Now you've got a dead end, you want a place for that vapor in the air to go. Um, that that is the that's the fix. That's the fix for if you want to continue to do a non-dentrower. Right.

SPEAKER_04 9:21

So brick ledge, seal your soffit to your your or subsoffit in your case to the wall sheeting and vent bottom and top. And so when you're gonna vent, you're gonna use the little bug screen things, yeah, because you don't want to end up just making a race wave for the world. Sure. So um you don't happen to have one of those laying around here, do you? I'll do, I'll grab it. There's other options, there's little, you know, the plastic ones are plastic ones that look kind of like a plastic brilliant pad. Yeah, you know. Uh yeah, let me grab one. Say goodbye, Jordan. He's not coming by Jordan. Bye, Jordan. Make us a hammer sheet sandwich before you come back, would you? So, what we're talking about is these weep holes, and and basically it's a section of mortar missing in between the next brick. And that's how they make a little section, and that's just for air to kind of come in there and convection and come out. But if you don't cover them up, you're asking the bugs to come on in.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

How often do you have to place those every 33 inches or every third brick?

unknown 10:21

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_03 10:22

So, since we're a global podcast and we have thousands of viewers weekly on YouTube, if you're watching now, you can see what this looks like. Um, and this is the particular model that I use. It's a stainless steel screen that comes flat. You can get these in different heights for different profiles of the wreck, whether it's modular, queen, king, whatever size brick you're using. Um, but they're pretty simple. And your rake joints can be a different size. So if you've got a three-eighths or a half inch or you're doing really tight and it says a quarter inch, you can bend these to size, and you bend them on show the camera. Show the camera, do a full demo. So here's what this looks like if you can see it now that it's been bent, and this gets inserted in between the brick. Now you've got a bug screen, right?

SPEAKER_04 11:07

So and that's really important. A lot of guys aren't even doing that. No, we're uh code. Is that a code that you have to put a screen in there? They just they just get the ventilation every 30 inches and call it good.

SPEAKER_05 11:19

No, what they're using is a waterproof vapor barrier that goes three courses up, which deteriorates on tier one. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And then we take pea gravel and we sprinkle in behind there. We're done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

These and uh, and most of the time it's just a small hole that they make, and this disappears, you know. They actually look really sharp, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:43

I mean, so this is a good well, maybe they get a little mortar on them, and they you know, whatever, but yeah, this is a good way to go. So you do these at the bottom every 30 inches, but there isn't a code for the top. No, no, so now you've got this dead end that we're talking about. So put these at the top, yeah. You know, you'll never see them. No, you you don't see them at all. So that that's that's an important part of the ventilation game. You don't put a hole in the house without addressing it for um for bugs. Um, well, that's cool. You have one. That was quick too. I didn't get the ham and cheese, but we'll sell for this.

SPEAKER_03 12:18

It I mean, I think those two changes alone, right? Let's get the bottom courses out of the dirt and let's think about where that moisture drive is going and how to how to effectively accommodate for it. Um we're really causing ourselves a lot of headache continuing the way. And I know how I got there. We had a good system, the products changed, and then the system was no longer good, right?

SPEAKER_04 12:44

And so and trade partners don't really they're there to install it, they're there not to think about the system. Right, it's up to the builders to to coach. It is, and if the trade partners aren't coached, I mean the first uh time I did this little brick ledge thing out here a couple of years back, the brick guy comes up, what is this? I haven't seen one of those in town ever. I'm like, it's a brick ledge. He goes, Well, when I was in Colorado, we did them. Uh so you know what they are, you know they're right, but over here you don't. I go, Yeah, we're gonna do brick ledge.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

It's um and I think it's a sharp look, you know, it's a durable look. Um I think everybody should be doing an above-ground brick brick ledge. I really do.

SPEAKER_05 13:28

Uh I agree. I mean, I've seen too many issues just in the 10 or 12 years I've been around. Gone out and looked at problems. People go, Well, it's flooding in my master bedroom when we get it.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

I looked at here's another interesting topic about the brick ledge that nobody thinks about. You know, we've we've got our footing, typical Emerald Foundation guy, footing, brick ledge goes on top of it, brick gets laid, all the mortar starts falling behind the brick. Yep, then you've got a mortar connection from brick to bottom stud. And to the bottom plate and maybe even several inches of the studs. So then when you go and do a remodel and tear a wall down, which we've done, both of us have done a lot of, and you've seen a lot of them. Yep, there's no bottom plate even left because moisture is transversed straight into the wood. You're just giving it a direct path at that point. So that's another reason to get it.

SPEAKER_05 14:23

I'm all about mortar net. I think mortar net's a great product, even though they don't sponsor this, but I've just seen the difference in how that mortar falls on that mortar net versus oh, let's just put the waterproof paper in there and gravel.

SPEAKER_04 14:40

Yeah, and it just it yeah, climbing is super important, and it is. It's almost and we were talking at the beginning of the podcast about we disagreed it was architecturally with UV protection, but it actually done wrong, it's your worst enemy. It is, it actually is a bad thing. I mean, if you didn't do it at all and you did it, you'd be better off than if you did it wrong. I would agree with wrong takes you way over the other side of bummer. I agree.

SPEAKER_03 15:06

You know, I've seen houses, you know, homeowners doing their own remodels or whatever it is, patching a wall where zip sheathing's been out there for seven or eight years, and yeah, it's faded, but it's still doing its job.

SPEAKER_04 15:19

Yeah, it's still sitting there in the sun.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

You take this assembly and seven or green or blue anymore, and you you don't just have a faded green board, you've got a completely rotten bottom wall system um that nobody knows about. You know, it's it's affecting the homeowner's health, it's affecting the structure. But until somebody actually dives into the remodel and it's like, oh uh, we've got to do some replacement now.

SPEAKER_05 15:41

Well, I tell my kids out at Emerald College, you want to be a remodeler, just give it another five more years and you'll have more work and you can check it out.

SPEAKER_04 15:51

And it's just falling down on around us, and we don't even know.

SPEAKER_05 15:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:55

It looks it looks good from the outside.

SPEAKER_05 15:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 15:58

So what's the next climb?

SPEAKER_03 16:00

Well, so the rain screen on the brick was the one-inch gap and the waterproof layer, right? It's not a it's not an additional layer of rain screen, but all these other ones we want to talk about, the rain screen, right? What is a rain screen, what's it doing, and where do we put it? And that's gonna go for for um for stucco, that's gonna go for any kind of siding. Any kind of siding, right? Whether it's metal or wood or masonry siding, whatever kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 16:31

It's kind of giving you the same concept we just talked about. It's uh an air layer of sorts, yep, and for that same moisture, so it's really the same exact thing between what we just said with the building and the brick, uh, but you can't really have siding floating like you can brick, right? Right, and so you have to get it attached to the wall, you have to attach it to the wall, but you still want the space, yeah. So that we've we've come up with this idea of rain screen.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

So, what's the difference between uh the rain screen and a just regular house wrap?

SPEAKER_03 17:04

So they have there are drainable house wraps, they're like a dimple mat, and those do provide a drainage path.

SPEAKER_04 17:11

They they they do, but have you ever really do you believe it?

SPEAKER_03 17:15

Um, well, I don't think that they meet code for a true rain screen. I think it's three-eighths of an inch for a rain screen, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 17:22

So these are little bumps that get yeah. I'm not I'm not discounting the product, and I use the product with the bumps if I'm not doing a full rain screen. So uh don't get me wrong, people that are building those products, I think they're wonderful. But if you're taking uh and putting this, it's a it's a paper with little black bumps in it. Some of them are the companies make a paper that's wrinkled that they that they figure once you put up there, the wrinkles will will make this this gap. But but logistically thinking, if you took a piece of wood siding and slammed up against this paper and nailed it, how much gap do you have?

SPEAKER_03 17:55

The idea of it is it's breaking the surface tension, right? So um you put wood up against wood and they're both smooth surfaces, water will get back there. It's not a question of if it's when. And and that's the way clotting is designed. Clotting is not designed to keep all bulk water out, it's designed to help water shed, but your water control layer is to keep all water out, right? Well, when you sandwich those two together and water does get back there, it doesn't have a place to go. And it and and that surface tension will actually drive the water into the house, especially if you have a if your water or air control layer at this at this point is not 100%. So let's say, for example, you have zip sheathing and it's your water control layer and it's your air barrier, it's doing a good job of keeping bulk water out on its own, but it may be really leaky as far as the air goes. Maybe the the tape wasn't sealed very well, or you missed a piece of tape, or there's a nail hole uh that's not filled. When you increase that surface tension with that sliding layer and water gets back there, it will now go through that nail hole where it once wouldn't before because the tension has increased.

SPEAKER_04 19:05

So, so what's the difference between? I mean, I understand what you're saying, between standard house wrap and the dimpled house wrap. So do you see a a major difference between those two?

SPEAKER_03 19:16

I think there's some. Um, you know, a standard house wrap, you can still get that surface tension.

SPEAKER_05 19:21

I was thinking to say, yeah, you can't.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Um it's like, you know, when you stick two wet pieces of glass together, they're hard to pull apart because of that surface tension. It's doing the same thing in that normal house wrap doesn't have enough texture variation to stop that.

SPEAKER_04 19:36

Well, that's where the bumps come in.

SPEAKER_03 19:37

That's where the bumps and the wrinkles come in. Okay, and so it does the job of stopping that surface tension, but it's not really allowing a true drainage and air drying.

SPEAKER_04 19:45

No drain plane.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

Yeah. Um, so that's where, and there's a lot of different types of rain screens, but that's where the rain screens come in. Yeah, it's it's just allowing for a gap behind. Some of them look like Brillo pads, some of them could be strapping, you know.

SPEAKER_04 20:01

Some are some are plastic and vinyl now. But back when they originally we originally started developing this, it was just uh half-inch pressure treated plywood, sure, ripped down to to I think they went two and a half or something on them, and then you would paper your house, nail those on at centers for your siding, and do some bug guards and assorted little things here and there, and then the siding would go on creating that air gap. Um, I don't know that that we ever vented the top. Well, you know, I think it's a dead end.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

It it it probably was. Yeah, but here's the thing is cladding is probably better left uncocked, right? And then it's not an air barrier, right? So when you've got a siding on there and you don't cock the bottom edges, you're allowing moisture and air to get back out of the top still, it's not a sealed air control layer.

SPEAKER_05 20:57

Well, and I think if you read the installation directions, the whole thing's leaking, the air is supposed to leak is supposed to leak. And if you read the ins installation directions on some of the cement products, some of the wood products, they want this vertical seam to be caulked, but not the horizontal on each board.

SPEAKER_04 21:20

That's for the expansion and contraction to keep the verticals anymore, these flash behind them. They got rid of that because that caused all kinds of problems. The movement, the caulking crack. Well, maybe that's why my house is gapped about that wide.

SPEAKER_05 21:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:34

And then then people would go through and touch up the paint, you know, these stripes on the house. So they got rid of that. Now we just take a piece of uh a step flashing shingle metal, put it behind there, put the two pieces aside and gap them for expansion and no caulking. The last couple I've done, I there's not any caulking on those houses, and it's corner boards or anything else. Yeah. Um, because it's just uh I I've always thought that the caulking, if you're dependent. Depending on caulking for anything but cosmetics, it's it's game over. You can't depend on it for because it's too big of a maintenance problem.

SPEAKER_03 22:07

Well, I think people looked at siding as the water control layer. And so they thought it needed to be caulked and painted and steel for sure.

SPEAKER_04 22:15

Two, three pieces of caulking, just caulk. And there was guys that did nothing but caulking and they were good at it. You know, it was just vote, you know, and did you look at the mess?

SPEAKER_05 22:24

If you look at vinyl siding and steel siding, how it actually goes and snaps together, to me, they're actually telling you that it's part of that right layer.

SPEAKER_04 22:36

And then if it's in the J channel and the outside with a ton of air, yep. There's a ton of gap in the J, you know, all around the windows. I mean, it's just it's just one big giant leak hole. You can hear it leaking.

SPEAKER_03 22:49

And then most of it's ventilated on the vinyl and steel.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:53

And then they've got a sandwich layer of foam that's directly up against the wall sheathing, and it's not taped or sealed. So you've got all these cracks where the foam goes, water gets in there, and then it's trapped with surface tension between the foam and the wall.

SPEAKER_04 23:05

And then if and then if you look at if the wall wasn't done prep properly, you they really in a bad way.

SPEAKER_03 23:10

Yeah, you do any demo on a vinyl or or steel siding, and sure it looks good the first time it gets put up. This you know, I'm not a big fan of it, but it does have an appeal to the exterior look of it. But then you remove that, and all of a sudden your wall looks like it's aged another 70 years after five years because of the assembly of it. It's not being done the way it should be done. Um, but yeah, that's the way to think about it. Don't think of the cladding as the water control layer. And so when we allow it to breathe up top, you really don't need that ventilation port because it's a board against the board, it's not airtight, it's got paths for water or for air and vapor to drive out.

SPEAKER_04 23:49

Um, now we we should take that. Are you done with the siding?

SPEAKER_03 23:54

I think I was gonna go into EFIS.

SPEAKER_04 23:55

I was just gonna say we probably should talk about how EFIS has its issues and should be rain screened.

SPEAKER_03 23:59

EFIS should be rain screened and ventilated, and it's it's neither.

SPEAKER_04 24:03

Neither a foam. So we're saying EFIS, it's the stucco look, synthetic stucco, synthetic stucco. And so they take a two-inch chunk of foam, which does give you a little R-value, which is cool. And 3.8 per inch is what it is. It's all right from the beginning. That's kind of a cool thing. Yeah, but then they're dropping it right onto the sheeting, and then they're putting their so there's no ventilation, no rain screen, and uh, and then they put their coating on, which I think is porous.

SPEAKER_03 24:30

It's it's it's waterproof, it's a synthetic waterproof layer, right? But it is like it is like smearing caulk all over the side of your sheeting and say it's never gonna leak again, right? Yeah, eventually you're gonna get a hole. Houses move. Something's gonna happen. You're gonna get a crack in the scene, you're gonna get a hole from hail.

SPEAKER_05 24:47

Right, the hole from hell. You're that's funny. That's funny.

SPEAKER_03 24:51

Watch your mouth, it still has joints in it that have to be sealed and they crack over time.

SPEAKER_04 24:55

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

And so now you've got this uh impermeable layer with holes in it holding foam directly against the house. Yeah, and if that is not a recipe for disaster, oh for sure.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

That's a total game of wrapping your house in a sponge.

SPEAKER_03 25:10

I mean, it's like wrapping your house in a sponge and a ziploc bag and putting some holes in the ziploc bag. That's exactly what it's like. And so we have no way it's not always about keeping the water out, it's about letting the water out, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Right.

SPEAKER_03 25:25

At some point in time, the water's gonna get in and we want to make sure it has access back out. Well, when we put that epis coding top to bottom and seal everything in in a false hope that it's never gonna see water, that's not an apple. It's not a real stucco house, it's not an extra.

SPEAKER_05 25:42

And I'll tell you, the J channel on the bottom has been in the code book that I'm aware of since 2012, anyway. Do we necessarily look for it?

SPEAKER_03 25:54

Should be. Yeah, that's so the the ideal approach for that would be um let's let's see that we've got a wall, right? Bottom of it, J channel, your foam and your rain screen sit into that channel, and it's got drain ports on the bottom. You ethos coat the front of it, yep, and then at the top we have a ventilation path for it as well. Now, there's different ways of flashing that and doing ventilation through the top, but now it is a detached layer from the house with a gap behind it that allows for water drainage and air path.

SPEAKER_04 26:27

And we that would live a long time.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

And guess what? If it hails, you're not in risk of and you do get a hole in it, it's a cosmetic fix, right? It's not I'm getting water on the inside of my house now. I'm rotting and molding my wall.

SPEAKER_04 26:41

So, how are you venting the top?

SPEAKER_03 26:43

Well, there's different ways of doing it, and it depends on the the house assembly by itself, right? So if we have a parapet wall, you could have a wall cap, and that wall cap could be uh your ventilation port for your uh your ethos, right? You stop your ethos short, you put basically the same similar J channel on the top, you end up side down.

SPEAKER_05 27:06

Yeah, I've seen that.

SPEAKER_03 27:07

And then your ear, then your wall cap covers it and it's got flashing, so no water can get in it, but air can get back out of it.

SPEAKER_04 27:13

So on a non-paraper wall, a conventional build soffit, yeah, and you know, it like like a brick pocket, but uh you'd have a an ethos pocket. An ephus pocket. How do you vent the top of that?

SPEAKER_03 27:24

It'd be similar, right? So you could still do the J.

SPEAKER_04 27:27

You could still do it. But the but the J is venting in the dead end up to the soffit. Well, how do you vent it?

SPEAKER_03 27:32

If your soffit's closed, then you've got a um and you've got call it a brick pocket, you still have a direct airflow path. Air's not picky where it goes, and then warm air travels up, but air itself is not controlled. So as long as you have that ventilation path, whether it's got to go a little bit up and back down, it still has a true ventilation path. And you throw convection in on top of that, the warm air will push its way out.

SPEAKER_04 27:58

So you're doing the J at the top, and the bottom, and the bottom, I understand, because it's open to air. But so you are you keeping that off the soffit a quarter inch, or no, you can't. Can't do that.

SPEAKER_03 28:09

You can keep it off the soffit some, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:11

Okay, I mean then you got a bug problem. Well, I'm just thinking that where's the bug problem at?

SPEAKER_03 28:17

Because you're fully enclosed behind that. You've got a J channel covering, you've got your soffit enclosed, so your J channel is right below your soffit, and then you've got your one by two strapping, your brick ledge, right? So there's an airpad, but there's not a there's not a bug path.

SPEAKER_04 28:32

Yeah, I don't know that they do the the pocket on ethos.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

No, there's no I've not never seen anybody else. I never seen do the pocket on eFAP.

SPEAKER_05 28:39

And here lately, I'm seeing a lot more ethos being done for soffits and fascia, and I am not a hundred percent crazy about it, right? But I because it comes back down, is they're gonna seal that fascia right to the roof. Now you have no path for anything to go with.

SPEAKER_03 29:01

I've seen a lot of that ethos material being sprayed like right on a wood material with no foam behind it. Oh, I've never seen that. I've seen a board and batten done that way, board and batten siding, and then they just spray the ethos um synthetic coating right on top of it.

SPEAKER_04 29:15

Oh, just to give it that look just to give it that look. I've never seen that.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

Um but I mean, and in that whole approach, you don't have a drainage path, you don't have an air, uh air path, you don't have room for vapor drive. Like you are building an assembly that is destined to fail in in a short amount of time at that. So it doesn't take much more, right? The rain screens aren't expensive. No, they go on really quickly and they're not meticulous. It's like you don't have to have your joints perfectly lined up as long as you don't have massive overlapping and it's not bumping something out. You got some rain strip range screen strips up there, whatever it is. Right foam goes to it. I guess the only thing you're adding is a rain screen that's inexpensive, and J channels that's inexpensive, and you've just increased the life of the home by countless decades.

SPEAKER_04 30:07

Something else to consider if you are doing rain screen, is you have to shream out your windows. You can't you need that window pushed out the thickness of your sleeper.

SPEAKER_03 30:18

You do, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:19

If you're you put a sleeper in, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:21

Well, I mean, well, you your sleeper is your rain screen, so your spacer, if whatever you're using for a spacer, your half inch or three inch, whatever, your window has to be asking them at that same amount. Otherwise, you're gonna end up with a uh window recessed into your cladding, right? So keep that in mind, right?

SPEAKER_03 30:37

And and I mean some of those windows are recessed into the cladding, it's a look, it's a style that's you know, it's an architectural style. Some of them are um you know installed on the inside of the framing, like any windows is what I've always referred to them as they're not a it's not a flanged window, it's a direct set on the inside of the framing.

SPEAKER_04 30:58

Ums wouldn't be an issue at all, but on a sided house, yeah, that you would want that window to sit in this normal proud spot for your siding to go into the window, the lap. So if you're gonna do a sided house and you're gonna do a rain screen house, you want to buck the window, you want to buck out the windows the same thickness as the sleeper.

SPEAKER_03 31:17

Yep, that's exactly right. Um so I think that's the answer to EFIS. That's the problems with EFIS. We've kind of gone over EFIS. Stucco is a little bit different.

SPEAKER_04 31:29

Mason Masonry stucco.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

True masonry stucco is a little bit different. It it can have a it can have a rain screen. They make very good products that uh act as a rain screen and also as a uh scratch coat, uh holder, I guess is the best way to explain it. But the good thing about stucco is it is uh impervious material, so it is penetrable, water and air both. It can hold water, it can let water out. It's not airtight, so it's had that going for it. And with the assembly that is practical of it, right? It's the lath, metal lath, and then scratch coat, brown coat, and top coat. Um, it's very similar to brick, the only difference is it is right up against the house. So you still want to put that rain screen in there.

SPEAKER_04 32:20

Um so if they're doing a rain screen, they're they're they're spacing out the wire, and like that's the first item is the wire. Chicken wire.

SPEAKER_03 32:30

Well, on some of those, if if I was to do uh true stucco, um masonry stucco on a house, I would use a product that is a rain screen, and it takes the place of the the wire or the mesh. Um, it's got the rain screen on the inside, on the outside, it is made to apply your scratch coat directly to it.

SPEAKER_04 32:51

So so it doesn't allow the scratch coat to go through and make a big muddy mess. Correct. No, correct. But but so you're spacing that scratch coat out between the rain screen.

SPEAKER_03 33:02

Correct.

SPEAKER_04 33:02

12 inches.

SPEAKER_03 33:03

Well, no, the rain screens maybe you know, any other like slicker max or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 33:09

It's three eighths Brillopad on one side, and then it's got no but as far as the spacing goes, they're they're minimum of 12 inches apart, right?

SPEAKER_03 33:19

I mean, if verticals no, so this would be like a rain screen that is applied to the whole house like a house wrap. Oh, so so it's a house wrap type rain screen, it goes over the whole house, one side's a brilliant pad, the other side's like a felt felt pad. Yeah, and that's what that scratch cut would go to.

SPEAKER_04 33:37

So I see it can't penetrate, it can't leak through.

SPEAKER_03 33:42

Correct. Um, that's that's allowing drainage and air. Now you still need to think about your stucco having drainage path at the bottom, whether you're using a preferated J channel or whatever that is, and a drainage path at the top. Now, something else that we didn't talk about is that J channel at the top is only for a non-vented roof assembly. If you're doing a vented roof system, you can vent it straight into the sofa.

SPEAKER_05 34:10

Right.

SPEAKER_03 34:11

And out the roof.

SPEAKER_05 34:12

Out the roof, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:12

And that's traditionally in a lot of places. We just happen to have a whole lot of non-vented roofs here in the Texas Van Handle. So we gotta think about some things a little bit differently before we drive moisture up into it. But that's our brick, that's our cladding, that's our ethos, and that's our stucco. And that's what's wrong with all of them. And and a example of how to fix them. There's multiple ways to go about all those. Um what else? What else are we gonna add?

SPEAKER_02 34:44

We talked about vinyl and steel siding. You got marker with uh LP, and then you've got hardy. Um pros and cons on between those.

SPEAKER_03 34:54

Yeah, I mean, I guess we really just talked about the assemblies of all these. We didn't talk about the actual products and the looks of them.

SPEAKER_04 35:00

Um there's definitely pros and cons from a concrete product like a hardy to uh uh an LP smart side, which is a wood composite product, you know.

SPEAKER_05 35:13

So there's an LP's been working on their smart siding. Yeah, they've been trying to make it a little bit more hail resistant.

SPEAKER_03 35:23

It's pretty tough. Um and it's it's water resistant. I mean they've got samples of it that are thrown into a bucket of water for two weeks and pull them back out, and they're yeah, they're in good shape.

SPEAKER_04 35:36

Yeah. Um I think it's a lot of it is preference and a lot of it's territorial um sales sales.

SPEAKER_03 35:45

Yeah, I would agree on that. Yeah, I mean it's regional.

SPEAKER_04 35:47

Yeah, you can go to a zone and and you just knew that they had a great salesman like yourself out there uh pushing their products and they they and they bought steak dinners for people, and next thing you know, the lumber yards are pushing that particular product. So I think it's sales driven. Um, I don't have I mean LP's come a long way. They had their class action suit back in the 90s, and that wasn't fun for them, but they stood up and fixed it, and so um I I I there's pros and cons to both, but I I wouldn't throw either one of them out, you know.

SPEAKER_03 36:19

And there's other products like them, and you know, there's there's synthetic PVC style material. There's a lot of that that looks like wood.

SPEAKER_04 36:28

Oh my gosh, they make some beautiful pre-pit pigmented colors, yeah, you know, um board and batten kind of stuff. So there's a lot of composite sidings that are awesome, you know, but you would still want to put them on around a rain screen.

SPEAKER_05 36:42

Well, Joel, you and I got samples from wood slipping, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

From that English yeah, that was an English made product. So this is basically like a Trex.

SPEAKER_04 36:53

It's a composite. Well, that's it right there. No, this is this isn't what we saw.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

This isn't what oh it's a particular manufacturer's millboard.

SPEAKER_05 37:02

Oh, millboard, and it's like this is it. It's this is what you and I got sampled. Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_03 37:07

It is Joel's the one that told me about it. Yeah, it's like a trex, it's it's very similar to it. It's a composite.

SPEAKER_04 37:12

Uh and this is gonna be bulletproof. This is gonna be cool, and it's super cool, yeah. And look at that's a board and batten all formed into it, and then you still want to put on a rain screen, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

Yeah, still on the rain screen, and nails on the same way.

SPEAKER_05 37:26

Um, there I think one of the things that I liked about it is the nails kind of just take this sphere and go away.

SPEAKER_04 37:32

Somehow that they go inside the this first layer and then they're gone.

SPEAKER_05 37:36

You don't see a nail here.

SPEAKER_03 37:37

Yeah, no, it there's but they have nickel gap, they have open face siding, they have um board and batten.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

They have some really cool beams. They do, they made some really cool beams.

SPEAKER_03 37:48

It's like a super good product now. Due to the nature of the manufacturing of it, it is one of the more expensive ones.

SPEAKER_05 37:53

Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

But uh again, it's what buy once, cry once, you know, it's that approach. Um, right. And sorry about that. The the other options are, you know, I think it's a pizza guy. Um, the other approaches are to the real wood, you know, real wood again, you've got endless opportunities with hardwoods and um cedar.

SPEAKER_04 38:19

And and that's really uh I've come to find this pretty territorial again. It is, you know, real cedar, uh, it wouldn't live out here. The heat. I've just I've just seen what with what the wood has done, something like this in this territory we have with the hail and the heat. We used to have a lot of cedar roofs. We uh we did everybody had cedar roofs, that was a thing.

SPEAKER_03 38:40

But the other thing is, is we do get wildfires here, and I think that's a liability. Whereas this is some of this stuff's got a fire rating on it. Um, and so putting wood on the outside of the house, I think that's why we're predominantly masonry here.

SPEAKER_05 38:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:54

Um, grass fires and wildfires that go really quickly.

SPEAKER_05 38:57

Um, well, we sure got a lot more brick masons than we do stucco guys, that's for sure. Our siding guys, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:04

You know, I I I uh expect out a house for for Hardy this last year, and you know, in different territories, you know, like I was saying, you could just go to Lumber Yard and pick up an extra 10 pieces, or they have units and units of it sitting in the yard. And in this territory, they don't have it, they don't know anything about it, and you have to order it and and make sure you get your count right because the trucks only coming once, yeah. You know, and so the last couple I did, I only ended up with maybe eight boards left over. I mean, we really had to put our thinking cap on where normally you would just come within 10 and then have Lember bring out the last 42 boards or something, but no, it's territorial makes it interesting. Yep, and the same with a product like this, you're not gonna go find and if you're short one piece, you're you're really you're short a thousand. You know, so so you have to kind of consider where you're building and and what your territory has readily available, you know. I mean that's a that's a somewhat of a choice, it's a weird choice to have to make, but when in Rome, so what about metal and vinyl?

SPEAKER_03 40:10

But metal and vinyl siding. What's what's the thoughts there?

SPEAKER_04 40:15

I I think vinyl siding will always have a place because it's uh economical apartment grade kind of things, you know. It's it isn't that hard to fix.

SPEAKER_05 40:26

That's true. Um, it's and it's a great starter home product.

SPEAKER_04 40:29

I mean, it makes starter home look good. You can always buy it. Yeah, no matter what town you're in, you can always find it. Aluminum siding is long gone. Thank you very much. Uh you know, I'm glad that's gone because it just dented and made a mess. And faded, yeah, faded, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Right.

SPEAKER_04 40:43

So I'm I don't have a problem with vinyl siding in the right application. Um, you know. Um metal siding, you know that you're talking about like barn dough? You're talking about like metal building.

SPEAKER_03 40:54

I was talking about like aluminum, but yeah, that's another application would be we saw that we see a lot of that.

SPEAKER_04 40:59

We do see a lot of that. I mean, we we have is a is a guy's we're I'd never heard of the term before I moved here, but barn barn dominions. Yeah, and basically you're talking about a a bar a pole barn, you know, or metal building, metal barn, and they just put a building inside of it, you know, kind of get in there and start framing your walls and do your thing. That's a whole nother thing. We should probably maybe don't want to address it here today, but that's a whole nother animal that I know. Robert's specking out stuff to build himself one of those. And so, how do you do your rain planes? How do you do your your spacings and what do you do with that? Because there's a lot of those being built. I think they're gonna they're gonna stay.

SPEAKER_03 41:36

Yeah, I think so. And um, I mean on the other side of the that's on the commercial side too. I think 75% of all of our commercial buildings are their metal.

SPEAKER_04 41:44

Oh, for sure. I mean all over the place, they're everywhere. I mean, little standalones, furniture stores, they're all metal. They are, and so how how are they built? I mean, um, and a lot of guys are are have their shops, you know, and then they're just spray from and go home. That's it. So yeah, that's enough. That's enough.

SPEAKER_03 42:03

Big topic, yeah. Buildings, right?

SPEAKER_04 42:06

Right. I mean, because I mean, even no matter where you are, people build shop buildings or man caves, uh-huh, you know, and and they want a section of it for their man cave and they want to have their show cars and whatnot. They're building those buildings all the time. There's a guy down here, um, that's building those, he's building a couple hundred of them now out there in uh um the next town over. We were talking to Sean about that, you know, where they're doing all that construction. Uh Dumas. No, just Bush. No, we were just talking to Sean two days ago, and he showed you that picture of that five million square foot development they're doing for AI. Oh, oh, oh, oh. No, those are and so there's a guy out there, there's a lot of people coming to town as it's complete side note, and they need housing. And this guy's building a hundred of those types of buildings that would be uh a place to either park your RV or to set up a camp or to have a building inside of a building, and he's building a hundred of them right now in Claude. Clawed in Clyde. Okay, yep. And and so how are those being built? Yeah, you know, I have a feeling I know how they're being built. Yeah, I mean too. So, anyways, we should talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

Uh, but that's well, we gotta finish our house first that we've been working on. Yeah, we've been working on this house too long.

SPEAKER_04 43:14

Well, this is clouding for the house. It is cladding. Here's another word. I mean, we're uh we're getting short on time, probably. Yeah, we're getting short. Um, so everybody talks about cladding. We've kind of described what cladding is as a skin of some sort, and this isn't quite within that subject of building envelope that we're talking about, but windows are cladded, you know. So I I mean, I I'm not really gonna dive into that whole thing, but that word cladding comes around. So if people just want to get used to that word cladding, it isn't specific to the outside of the building. You can get a window that has an aluminum cladding means it's a cover over the cover, it's an architectural cover, true, you know, and and so that's I thought I just throw it in as an extra clad word because cladding is the word, isn't it cladding our word? Cladding is the word. So I want to. All I know about cladding.

SPEAKER_03 44:01

The the only other wall cladding assembly that we didn't talk about that I thought of is um veneer stone.

SPEAKER_05 44:08

Yeah. I think we call it lick and stick.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

Um well it's not like it's not like some of the uh other stone products that nail on or keel and stick actually on. It is um culture. It's a culture stone. Culture stone and mortar design. It does, usually with uh like a metal lath and then mortar scratch coat, and then it's put on. And we need to think about that the same way as we do um like a masonry stucco. We can use the same type of rain screen between it, yeah. Um and you're you're disconnecting that.

SPEAKER_05 44:47

Well, now wait a minute. I live somewhere where it doesn't rain very often, so who cares? Oh, I guess that's changed this year, didn't it?

SPEAKER_04 44:55

I almost said at the beginning of this that rain screen, I always kind of thought this was the wrong name. The word rain, the word rain definitely grabs your head completely somewhere else where it shouldn't go.

SPEAKER_05 45:05

It's not it's that's why I said what I said.

SPEAKER_04 45:06

Yeah, I mean it's not a waterfall back there, it's not a water feature, right? So the word rain screen, it shouldn't be. I argued that years ago. I argued that years ago. I said, Why are we calling it this?

SPEAKER_05 45:17

I think we need to call it venting screen.

SPEAKER_03 45:21

Well, another thing about it is where it doesn't rain, guess what you have to do? Run a sprinkler system, and that sprinkler system can cause a whole lot more damage than rain can. Um, it's every morning, you know, every night, whatever, and then you're getting vapor drive right after that because the sun's coming out. It it unlike rain can shoot upwards, right? It's coming from the ground, not from the sky, right? So you're going against all of your lat patterns. Um, it can be more dangerous than rain for sure. Um anyways, that's our I guess that's our our our our beef with cladding.

SPEAKER_05 45:57

That's our beef with cladding. I mean, it's a lot of it.

SPEAKER_03 46:00

A lot of a lot of a lot of bad issues that I think you know the test of time will come and we'll see what's happening with some of this stuff. But uh if you're if you're listening to this podcast, take note. Uh maybe maybe hop on the the train to change and and and start thinking about the system as a whole, yeah, right? Not a product that's new and and changing the old way of things of doing things, but the system as whole so that we are properly addressing all of our control layers and making a durable, healthy, long-lasting building.

SPEAKER_05 46:34

Well, and I one of the things I ask my students on a regular basis as we move through our two-year program at Emerald College is what sub is more important than another? I get all kinds of answers. And I said, wait a minute, what is a house? They never nobody thinks about a house being a system, and that's what we're sitting here talking about, is part of the system. So sorry, I MEPs, we can actually do without you. We're not as comfortable without you as we are with you, and but without some kind of shelter, we could still build in the dirt. I mean, if we wanted to do that without concrete. But the whole point is, is we've as a society, we've grown, we've done, and we've come to the point of we want to live comfortable. And somebody says, Well, healthy and healthy, we building a house too tight. I don't think we're building them tight enough. Yeah, I would agree.

SPEAKER_04 47:40

And then something else to consider is this is your investment.

SPEAKER_05 47:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 47:46

And if you if if you if it's your first-time buyer, you don't really understand that. If you're if you've been down the road where you you were had to sell your house and you massively failed your building inspection, your bank inspection, or your home inspection, and they start tearing things apart, and you just have no idea how this could have possibly happened, you know, think about that on your next new build. You know, protect your investment. It doesn't cost hardly anything to do it right. And you can sleep at night knowing that when the time comes in 10 years when you're moving to the next house for the next reason, that you're gonna just skate through that inspection, no questions asked, and you're gonna have pictures and documentation of how you built that house. And the next educated buyer that's coming through to buy your house, they're gonna buy your house versus the next door neighbor's house because you're gonna show them how it was built and what we did and what we did right and why. And that then that's that's a huge thing people just don't even think about.

SPEAKER_03 48:42

Yeah, it's a it's an upfront, unappreciated asset that that pays off in the you can't polish it, it's not shiny, and you can't cook on it.

SPEAKER_04 48:50

And and then and unfortunately, if it gets to the bottom of the barrel.

SPEAKER_03 48:53

Yep, it does. It's the last thing that uh it's the first thing you need to think about, it's the last thing people pay attention to and the first thing they should actually think.

SPEAKER_05 49:00

So but we sure gonna spend ninety thousand dollars on that brand new pickup truck, and it loses 10 grand right off the lunch.

SPEAKER_03 49:08

But that's why we got this podcast, you know. So the seven listeners know what know how to build a house when we get done.

SPEAKER_02 49:17

Um but, anyways, I think that's it for some TPBA stuff coming up.

SPEAKER_03 49:23

How about it?

SPEAKER_02 49:24

Okay, well, um, actually, I don't know when the next luncheon and stuff is. I was just gonna bring up the TPBA uh Wing Oars is coming up September 13th in the parking lot at Ferguson. Um, I don't know exactly how many teams we've got, but uh it should be a pretty good time, uh open to the public too. So yes.

SPEAKER_03 49:42

Um it's it I have a Facebook page. I believe there's links to buy tickets on already. Uh they are for sale. The next luncheon is September 11th.

SPEAKER_02 49:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 49:53

I don't know who the speaker's going to be yet, but um it's always a good time. Um what else do we have coming?

SPEAKER_02 50:00

Um what was I gonna oh uh do you know how much the teams are to get?

SPEAKER_03 50:05

I don't. It's not it's on the website.

SPEAKER_02 50:07

It is on the website.org.com.

SPEAKER_04 50:10

I think I mean the teams don't they get the free free wings, or how does that work?

SPEAKER_03 50:15

The the teams pay for their entry as a team, and then yes, the wings are supplied to them.

SPEAKER_04 50:20

As many wings as they want. Uh good enough. There's a ton of them. There's a bunch. Yeah, I think literally right. And so the this event, as far as I know, uh was done by the schools before the Montessori school sponsored this or something, so right, and and it was a great event that uh you know, with COVID, it it killed the event.

SPEAKER_03 50:41

It is so this is being brought back by and the other thing is association a portion of the proceeds are going to benefit Habitat for Humanity, which is a great program. It is, it is so it's not just raising, you know, we're not just trying to raise um uh association money for operable money, it's actually going to a good cause.

SPEAKER_04 51:02

And I know that we're in an international podcast, so if you guys can unhop a plane, come to Ferguson's parking lot, um we'll give you if you can prove that you actually flew here, we're giving you free wings.

SPEAKER_03 51:14

Buy your ticket.

SPEAKER_04 51:15

We'll buy your ticket, we'll buy your ticket. So uh come on down for some wings. Right. Anything else important?

SPEAKER_02 51:22

Nothing I can think of. Nothing else.

SPEAKER_04 51:23

Okay, well, thanks for the wing hit. Yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

Uh, we want to thank our sponsor uh this year, it's uh Hubert Engineered Woods. Um, they were gracious enough, gracious enough to give us uh some money to operate so that we could have the equipment and the software that we needed to operate with this. And it's a product that we really believe in. Thank you. Yeah, so that's it.

SPEAKER_04 51:45

That's a wrap. That's a wrap.

SPEAKER_03 51:47

All right, we'll see you next time on the TPPA Builder Talk podcast.