All About TAB

In this episode we sit down with Scott Norman, the CEO of Texas Association of Builders, and Chris Lyons, the Texas Association of Builders President, to discuss all things TAB.

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SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Texas Panhandle Builders Association TPBA Builder Talk Podcast, where we'll bring you expert advice from the heart of Emirella Building community. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting in the trade, our goal is to keep you informed on the ever-evolving building codes, share best practices, and help you excel in your craft. From innovative design ideas to smart material selections and everything in between, we're here to support you in every aspect of home building. Each episode, we'll dive into topics that matter most to builders, contractors, and industry professionals, ensuring that you stay ahead of the curve in this rapidly changing landscape. Our discussions are shaped by the experiences and knowledges of our hosts and guests, providing you valuable perspectives that you can apply directly to your work. The views and the opinions expressed are those of the hosts and the guests that may not always reflect the most up-to-date or accurate information. Let's build something great together, one conversation at a time.

SPEAKER_06 1:06

Ben Hardesty, Robert Downing, and Chance Les.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Chance, why don't you introduce our uh special guest for the day and tell us what we're going to talk about?

SPEAKER_00 1:16

So our first special guest is uh is a good friend of mine, uh Chris Lyons, is uh owns a brokerage here and is also a builder as well. But right now he is the TAB uh Texas Association of Builders president. And Scott Morman is the C the CEO of the Texas Association of Builders. Uh, we're excited to have both of you guys here. Uh different different roles in TAB, but um a lot of experience in both of your roles like having the top three uh just building with you guys.

SPEAKER_04 1:53

Glad to be here.

unknown 1:54

Thank you, Chance.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Uh well again, we appreciate you guys taking the time to be on the podcast with us and uh uh hopefully make an interesting podcast for us to listen to later on, and and uh of course get it out to the rest of the TPBA that didn't get to attend our luncheon today, which Scott spoke at and uh had some really cool insight and and some good information. Um so let's kind of dive into to who you guys are, how you how you got to where you're at. So uh Scott, what what got you into TAB?

SPEAKER_04 2:27

Well, um first of all, thanks, fellas, for having me here. And uh just for the people that don't know, the Tech Association Builders is the state Home Builders Association. Um we have 27 locals, of which the Texas Panhandle Builders is one of those 27 around the state. Uh we're a federation, so you join at the local level. Um most of you do state locals, some go to the state, and some go to the National Association of Home Builders in Washington, D.C. And we all have our role. Um NHB focuses on federal stuff, we focus on state level, and our local associations deal with city, county, and and local market issues. Um personally, I've worked for the uh state association since 2003, uh, so 23 years now uh been working. I started out as uh general counsel and head lobbyist for the association when I came over uh before that. Uh I was with the uh Texas Council of Engineering Companies, which is the state association of civil engineering firms that do road work and development work, a lot of the medium, small, medium, and large uh civil engineering firms. I was their general counsel um and started out as a baby lobbyist over there, had a really great mentor. Um before that, I worked at the Capitol um as both a staff attorney for a state senator and then general counsel to the Senate Natural Resources Committee. So I got out of law school. I grew up in Northeast Texas, Longview area, and uh was going to go back to East Texas and practice law. Had a couple opportunities to do that. Um a state senator that I knew uh called. He had just lost his staff attorney and moved on to another job and asked if I would come for session only. Come work for like six months. So um we are now 30 years later, and I haven't moved more than a block away from the Capitol. So that's six months, didn't uh uh or in six months I got sucked into the capital world. But uh it's been a great run, and I love working for the builders. Um, I had the general counsel role until 08. Um, and then uh they hired me to be the CEO, executive director. Um, so I gave up general counsel role and hired another general counsel. Didn't want to be the boss and the and the lawyer at the same time uh and get yourself in trouble. So still have my law license and uh have an attorney that works for us. But we uh mainly, like I said, focus on state legislature, um, dealing with state agencies, uh lobbying heavily. Um myself's a registered lobbyist. I have uh our general counsel is a registered lobbyist, then our head of government affairs, JD Hale, is um also a lobbyist, and then we have six contract lobbyists um who are hired guns, and uh a lot of issues face the home builders, as you can imagine, and developers and remodelers and our associates. We'll talk about that in a minute.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

So before we we dive into the tough questions we've got lined up for you, what's what's your favorite thing about your position that you hold?

SPEAKER_04 5:23

It's working in this industry. Um, I have a lot of friends and and colleagues, you know, working around the Capitol. Uh, some of them are lobbying for issues and causes or what have you that maybe they don't believe in, but working for housing, I mean it's truly what all of you do is a noble and honorable profession. You know, we're trying to provide homes for people where they can raise their family, um, you know, build, uh, build, put down their roots and and you know, build themselves up in their community where people live their lives. And it's, you know, it's something good to advocate for. So that's that's half of it. The other half is just dealing with the people. I love the state of Texas. I'm a uh history and geography nut. And so I love traveling around the state and getting to meet with folks like you all over the state as part of my job. That part's really cool.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Very cool. Uh, and then also with us, like we we've we've introduced Chris, a little local celebrity here with uh um being the president of the tab this this year. We're really excited to have him on our side. And um, Chris, why don't you tell us what got you into your role? Yeah, builder, builder and and president.

SPEAKER_05 6:26

Yes, mine's a little bit uh uh less uh glamorous than Scott's. Um so this is what happens when you uh when your parents are are both in the field. So you know mom's been selling real estate for 40 plus years. Dad actually started building homes about 40 plus years ago to give mom listings to sell. So what happens, you you get out of uh I went to college and I told everybody I said I am not doing what my parents do, not gonna do that. Um and you can see how that worked out. But I got out of uh uh West Texas AM and I got a job at affiliated foods as a buyer. I thought this is great, I'm doing my own thing. Um, well, I started selling real estate, you know, part-time, and it got to that point where I had to make the decision. So it was the day we came home with our our baby boy, um, walked in affiliated and they had a banner out. Congratulations, Chris, and and uh a little backstory before I tell you the rest is my wife was self-employed, she was cutting hair at the time. So affiliated was our steady paycheck, it was our insurance, and I walked in and I said, I quit. And then this was 2007, so this is how bright it was. It was those seven. And then we we changed the name at that point. Mom had uh two agents, two friends that were working out of our kitchen with her, and we changed the name from married line drills. The line's realtor opened up in in Amarill, and then uh you know, 08-09 hit. Uh we're broke, this could be forever. So fast forward, we got everything growing, life's good. Dad said in 2016, he said, Man, I'm I'm not retired. Oh, then you can't. This is all I know. So we said, Hey, we're gonna open up our own build company because everybody thinks, oh, you just you just piggyback on your dad. And it's like, no, we actually truly opened up our own called Home My Live and um and it started growing. Um and it's it's great. Now it's really cool to look back at it because now dad has shut down his build company, and we get the honor of him working um with with Home My Lives. Um he doesn't work for us, he he is he does whatever he wants, and uh so it's very clear we're here to support him however we can. And then in the meantime, um as y'all know too, we opened up uh partner with uh Eric Light with Old World Construction with another uh mainly commercial uh focused company called Light. So that's my story, is um, but I guess in the meantime, too, you know, have an insurance company uh so really anything housing, anything housing is kind of what we're doing for.

SPEAKER_04 8:58

So I had that lady to tab.

SPEAKER_05 9:00

Oh, it's on tab, let me tell you. So I'll start on tab because I was a real stakes, not actually health starting. And I was like, I gotta get to know these builders because I own a builder business. So I started going to the local launch heads and getting more involved. That led to Joe Wilson, he was with Happy State Bank at the time. He he said, Hey, you need to come down to a state event. And I hadn't been down, so I didn't really know the story. And we said, Hey, if you come down, you know, I'll buy you wine and food. So I went down. And and it was cheap date, Chris. Cheat date, cheap date. I don't even like wine. And uh, but I went down, I really like food. So I ended up going down, and once you're down at the state level, you start it starts opening that door, we see so much more uh behind the scenes and what goes on. And it's really easy to buy into it then. Um I know we come back, a lot of times we come back and we'll talk locally of hey, you need to do this, you need to do this, and but until you're down there and you get it, you actually see it and you see the importance of it, that's when you really have that buy-in and you go, okay, this is this is for me. So at that point, I start getting more and more involved and and kind of working my way uh up the ranks.

SPEAKER_04 10:11

Yeah, and it's cool. I mean, the model is so cool because we're truly a grassroots organization. You know, our board, our state board's over 200 people with 27 locals. They all have representation, so it quickly adds up. Um, and so there's the board, much like the local association, it's just bigger. We have an executive committee that's 40 people um about, and then our senior officers is a ladder that folks move up the ladder, um, you know, from uh vice president secretary to first vice president to president, past president. It's a four-year commitment um to serve um on their nickel um as volunteer leaders of the organization. So it's always rewarding, but over the years, so many, and we may talk about rally day, but so many of our senior officers that end up being state presidents um and most of our board, their first contact with Tab is coming to Rally Day, uh, which is the big legislative day that we have. Um, you know, have 10,000 members, and on a good year, we'll have over a thousand at the Capitol one day. So over 10% of our membership in Austin, which is super impressive to see, and it makes a real impact on the legislators.

SPEAKER_05 11:17

And you're right, rally day and that was mine. I joked around about the food and the and the wine, but but it was rally day. And uh, and I know in the past our association has even you know looked at throwing little things out to incentivize people to come down and just just to it just to see how that works and to see all those builders um there fighting for that cause, and it's great. And and I will say one thing Scott's right, everybody goes, Oh, it must be nice being president, you get everything paid for. It is a volunteer position. Um and uh so but but we do it because we love it. We don't do it for money, we do it because we we're passionate about the the industry and we want to serve.

SPEAKER_04 11:54

Well, and it's folks that's been involved for a long time that are giving back, you know, the late Ron Conley, who was also a state president for Amarilla, he told the same story first time he had ever even uh knew what Tab was or been to the Capitol was at a rally day. Yeah, yeah. Um he ended up being state president as well.

SPEAKER_05 12:10

So looking back at it now, it's really really fun. I was president, I was president of Amarillo two years in a row, yeah, two years in a row. And one of my uh mentors, the two people I'd go to and ask all the questions to were my dad and Ron. Um and so I hate that Ron's not here with us. He was a he was a big supporter um of us of us all, you know, state and and help meet locally.

SPEAKER_04 12:32

Well, he was the right man at the right time um through the Great Recession. He was the president, and we had a lot of budgetary challenges and tough challenges, and he he got us through those tough times. He was a great guy.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

Um, so before we get on to maybe some more current topics, maybe we can talk about what what's what's previously been affected by TAB, maybe some big wins that you guys have had in the last year or two.

SPEAKER_04 12:56

Yeah. For sure. Well, I'll go most recent and go back as far as you want. Um, this most recent session was hugely successful for us last year um in 2025. Uh we opened up and worked on the impact fee statute, uh, which controls uh cities can charge impact fees. They don't all do it, but many do for water, wastewater, and drainage. It's one set of rules, or for roads. And that statute was negotiated and passed in the mid-1980s with our association working with the cities and TML, and neither side had really wanted to open it up, and there hadn't really been much legislative changes to it in 40 years. Um, this past session we opened it up and it was due some reforms, um, and those got passed. Um, some really positive language requiring an audit before uh impact fees can be raised, um, making sure that there's more notice so that citizens and home builder groups and homeowners and everyone actually has time to review these studies that are prepared by engineering firms. The old law said that they could give very, very short notice, something that the city and their consultants have prepared maybe for a year. The public had very limited time to review them. Um, so we stretched those timelines out. We also raised the threshold to two-thirds if they're going to adopt or or raise impact fees of of the city council versus a majority. Those were a few of the changes. So that was huge. Um and that's important because we wanted we wanted we had examples of cities that were not, they were collecting impact fees. They have 10 years under the law to spend it or give it back. We never found an example of them giving it back. Um, and they were not getting spent necessarily, they certainly aren't weren't being audited. Um, some cities were doing a great job, but we felt like there wasn't enough transparency. So that was a big win. Also passed a build in with uh building moratoriums, making sure that if cities are going to do a moratorium, and sometimes there may be a need if there was a uh you know a catastrophe or a water plant didn't work or something, you know, broke down, but that they weren't used as an anti-growth tool. Um commercial had a hard date that they could only uh last so long, these moratoriums. For residential, they could extend them to infinity, just keep extending them. We stopped that. Uh we raised the voting threshold to three-fourths, actually, from a majority, if you're gonna do a moratorium, and also like the impact fee bill, added a lot of notice. So people, because it is a death penalty, if you cannot, you know, you can't sell uh your wares, you guys can't pull permits in a whole community. Um, and you know, if if you're a market where there's only one community or uh in your market and they do a moratorium, you're out of business until that's lifted. And so if they're gonna do that draconian measure, there needs to be thoughtful participation by those that are affected, there needs to be notice of it, and there needs to be a high vote threshold. So that was a huge win. We also got significant funding last session for Texas State Technical College, um, which is the state's uh main trade school. Um, I know there's a lot of local community colleges and other higher ed and public ed that have programs going, but um, we got $850 million approved through the legislature, and then the voters in November approved that. It's a constitutional amendment. Um, so that will be a fund for TSTC going forward. Um, working also on some impact fee credits for water and wastewater and some additional water funding. Um, you know, water is a huge challenge all over the state, especially Central Texas and West. Um, and so we're trying to get the ability of the state to create new water supplies, move water around from the areas that have it to some of the areas um that maybe are a little drier or a lot drier right now. And so those are some of the huge issues uh we work on. Obviously, taxes, building codes, um, those things are always engaged. Session before last, a really big win for our industry, the Residential Construction Liability Act. It had not really been updated significantly since 1989. There's a little bit in the 90s. Um, we made some modifications on that. That's the litigate uh the uh civil procedure that controls litigation between homeowners and builders. Um it's it's intended to give an opportunity, notice to builders and remodelers, and an opportunity to cure and make corrections so we don't end up in the court in lawsuits and litigation where only the lawyers win. I can say that as a lawyer. Um that doesn't um that doesn't benefit anybody but the lawyers' pocketbooks, meantime. So those changes got passed. Huge win. We also lowered the statute of repose. That's the amount of time you can bring litigation on a construction defect. In Texas, it had been 10 years plus two if the defect was discovered in the last year, so it could be up to 12. We uh worked with the legislature and it was a big fight, but it was a huge win. We got that lowered to six years, but in an effort to try to encourage builders and modelers to do a better job of giving written warranties, doing a big assigned contract, um, because there was no requirement under the law to do those things. You only get the six-year if you have a contract and you provide a warranty and performance standards and that sort of thing. So that got passed. Um, so builders, if they don't want to do that, they're still on the hook for 10 to 12 years. Um, and so it's really, it's really raised the bar for the industry. So those are just going back a couple of sessions. You know, we've been doing this since uh 1946. So it's funny. Um, a couple three sessions ago, we were engaged in plumbing issues. It was a huge water session, and we went back and we were looking in the in the records. Um, we had our 75th anniversary a few years ago. This is our 80th year, so five years ago, in that first session when we got we got created in 1946, TAB did the 1947 session, two top issues, state plumbing board and water. Yep. So it's the same stuff. It just happens.

SPEAKER_05 18:48

That's right. Yep, that's right. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 18:51

You know, it's this, you know, you got to have water, good schools, roads, electricity. You know, there's uh, you know, there's a few things that change, but the the built basic building blocks are the same. And Texas is growing, so we have a lot of challenges and a lot to engage in. Um, so you know, your members can keep doing what they're doing, and people have a place to live in this great state.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

So you you talked about a lot of interesting things just now. I mean, I could I could probably ask a day's worth of questions off of the just that excerpt. Um, but what what's the health of um builders in Texas and and homes being built in Texas? How do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_04 19:26

Well, it's slowed down, certainly. I mean, the whole national economy slowed down. Um, you know, interest rates, what's happened? Uh, you know, it got so extremely out of whack to the good, I guess, during the post-COVID boom, which was probably a boom like we'd never seen all over the state. Um, and that was all over the country, but even in Texas more so because so many people, it was up. It got up, I think, at one point, 1,700 people a day were moving to Texas. That's down to only 750 a day, um, which is still a whole lot of people um moving to Texas and they all have to live somewhere. Um, so we're doing better than a lot of the country. Um, but it's definitely slower. Interest rates are a problem, labor's a challenge, insurance, uh, taxes, the regulatory burden. You know, a lot of the challenges that that our members see is in the land side and trying to find affordable land, especially for the lower price point homes. Um, you know, you seem like you can find plenty of dirt to build what Chris fills. But um, you know, for a lot of first-time homebuyers and people starting families and workforce housing, whatever you want, trying to find that land and and working with jurisdictions to put dense subdivisions because it's it's going to take more homes per acre, smaller lots, smaller homes to get affordably stuff. And that's the hardest for all of you guys and people in our industry to put on the ground. And so that that kind of at the core is the number one thing we engage in in talking, whether it's to the legislature, um, you know, to the state agencies, trying to work with our local associations to deliver that message to cities and counties to say, look, you know, we understand there is a certain level of regulation that is needed, um, but it doesn't need to be any more than that. And it needs to be um working with us to try to put some of these types of product on the ground because there's a great housing demand. You know, Texas is in the bottom uh of the country in uh home ownership rate. We're down there with Mississippi and Louisiana, um, and that's not a place we want to be. We're like at 64 percent our home ownership rate in Texas, and a lot of some states are way over 70. And so Texas, um, and I I will say the governor and lieutenant governor have really started to talk about that. They're hearing it from us and saying we need to do something to try to address that.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

So we still have r really good numbers coming into the state, especially compared to a lot of other states that are losing those. Um jobs, objects and jobs. Absolutely. Um, so I mean our our state comparatively is is kind of still top up in the Nation as far as those.

SPEAKER_04 22:01

I think we're still leading in housing starts. It's just way off from where it was.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

It's the same with jobs as well.

SPEAKER_04 22:05

Uh yeah, we are we are the number one state for new jobs. We have been for a number of years. Governor Abbott rightfully brags about that. They give out a trophy one magazine that is like the state job magazine. And so Texas, excuse me, is a real champion in that and continues to be. And you know, there's new announcements of relocations and more companies coming. They announced a 2,000-person gas-fired power plant in East Texas that the president announced last week. There's all kinds of good things happening because you know the two things that drive housing growth is job growth and population growth. You got to have both of them. And Texas has that more than any other state. Now, some areas state better than others, obviously, but but overall we're good. But we, you know, I and our industry should be very bullish on housing, especially in the next 15 years or so with this population growth and all the job things going on. Hopefully, Texas continues to be a low-tax, light regulatory burden state. That's why those businesses are moving here. That's why a lot of the people are moving here. Um, you you would hear some politicians talk to us about, you know, y'all are building houses, all these Californians are moving here. What are y'all going to do? They're going to get us voted out of office. That was 10 years ago they were saying that. Now they're saying actually they're more conservative than the people that grew up here. They're like, you know, naturalized citizens appreciate it more because they came from their oppressive regime and it moved to Texas in the liberty. Yeah. So they it's actually the opposite. They're they're more conservative and and and value what what is happening here in Texas.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_04 23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Um so you know, with the population coming in, requiring more housing, um, do you see a disconnect from what consumers are um expecting versus what builders can actually produce?

SPEAKER_04 23:58

Well, I think you Chris could probably answer that too. But I think yeah, but I think, I mean, I think you know, everybody wants something better, faster, cheaper than everybody else. That's right. That's right. But uh I think so. I think I well, people are moving with their feet. And so you have people, you know, part of the California thing is their their real estate is so elevated, those folks are selling stuff so high, they're coming here and it's like it's a fire sale. Um, but then that where I live in Austin, that has driven up the cost of housing big time because feet people, you know, they were getting tons of Californians in Austin. They many would say are overpaying for real estate, but it's a bargain to them from where they came from. So it's raising the price all the way across the board. Um, and Austin's an example where they're you know their prices had really, really gotten uh gotten up there, and they're having more of a correction than most of the state. But Houston continues to lead the nation in starts. Houston's doing really good. Dallas has slowed down some, San Antonio's remained strong. A lot of our mid-sized cities um continue to do pretty well. So you may have some consumer.

SPEAKER_05 25:03

I mean, it's I mean y'all stayed here. I mean, we we've seen it as you know, right now, I mean, there's there's every type of house in in Amarill. And I'd say the ones that's the hardest right now, so the ones that's interest rate that's affected most you know, prices went up pretty good during COVID. I mean, we've all we all saw that uh I think we've all adjusted. You know, I'm just glad here recently that things have leveled back out. Um we're not seeing huge spikes anymore. Um so that that's good. But I I think there's there's a two, you know, it's just the market. It's everybody's looking for something different. And our job is how do we serve everybody out there looking, you know, whether you're you're just starting for your first house, which it is a little different though. I remember on my real estate base, you know, looking and our first our starter homes that I was showing is oh 85,000. Yeah, and I mean those things have changed a little bit. Um but no, I I I think there's people looking at all price ranges. Um interest rates are affecting a little bit, but I feel like there's a ton of pinup demand.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

I agree. Do you do you think that you know going from a historically low interest rate to a pretty for a long time? For a long time to a pretty, you know, honestly reasonable interest rate, kind of the new norm, but it was a big jump all at once. Do you think that had more of an impact than um than just an increase in pricing?

SPEAKER_05 26:28

So I I I do. I personally think that that those low rates were were great. I mean, they were great. You look back, you never look back and go, I knew what I know now. I mean, wow. Um, but those rates are were so good that now that we came out of it, it's almost like you're handcuffed a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 26:47

It's not just psychological, it's that you you have this golden handcuff because in your existing home, but at the longer we go down the road, you know, people's life situation is going to change. Their family grows, they have to move, you know, mom or grandma has to move in with you. And so I think you know, people are becoming accustomed to where the rates are. Um, you know, and hopefully world events calm down and the rates continue to come down or um can start coming down again soon. But but you know, at some point people are gonna that pinup demand is gonna see that. And I think we're starting to see some of that.

SPEAKER_05 27:23

I agree. I think we're starting to see it. And I've heard a lot of talk too, and yeah, chance we've talked about this a little bit, is a lot of talk is uh people that have these houses, it's possible they may try to keep buildings for investment property. I mean, what else are you gonna get? A three percent interest rate. And so we've heard talk on that. I think the biggest challenge there is you just gotta find that money for the down payment for the next one. And you know, it seems like everybody's always tied on money, regardless of how much you make, everybody's just a little tight on money.

SPEAKER_04 27:51

So one thing we're seeing too around the state is the remodeling are folks, either builders transitioning back to remodeling if they weren't or moving into that space, or remodeling, there's more, especially um as less and less infill type property is available or raw land in in you know, citer city, city center or close in, you're gonna see a lot of neighborhoods that historically have not been turning over. I think you're gonna see more and more of that. We're starting to see that. I know in Austin there's quite a bit of it in Dallas and Houston and Fort Worth. And I would I would expect it to expand out to other size cities as well as people want to live in there's you know these houses. And so I think I think a remodeling is gonna be a portion of this that uh will continue to grow and uh so I mean we affordability has been it's been the talk for two years at least now, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:43

It's no news to anybody. So uh just just one more quick question on it, and we'll kind of move forward. Um, what do you think the most misunderstood factors uh contributing to affordability are?

SPEAKER_04 28:57

Well, I think the most misunderstood because we hear it that it's somehow it's the builder and developer's fault, um, that they are they are wanting to set these prices to make more money. And uh it couldn't be more opposite. As I was saying earlier, greatest demand is for those lower priced homes. And our members would like to build a lot more of those lower priced homes and sell a lot more of those at much cheaper prices um than you know one or two big homes. And that that that is something that is is uh counterintuitive to some people. Um, but I think that, and then just to understand the difficult or getting across um to the layperson that isn't, you know, they've maybe lived in a house, but that's the extent of their knowledge of construction and development is how difficult it is. Our National Association NHB estimates that 25% of the cost of a new house across the country, it's a national number, varies by market, but on average, 25% of the cost of house is due to regulation. Um, of that 25%, two-thirds is during the development stage. So everything and you know, involving entitling the land, prepping the dirt, putting the pipes in the ground, the streets in the ground, everything else. And one-third of that 25% is during the construction phase. So really it's during the development phase that's driving up that cost. And, you know, rough rule of thumb is housing costs, you know, five times uh the cost of the lot. Um, and so you drive up that lot cost, you're driving up that housing cost. And so that's something that is is, you know, we spend a lot of time trying to explain um the challenges, and a lot of that's driven the challenges in infrastructure, water, wastewater, roads, drainage, utilities, all the things that it takes to build a community, um, all of that is getting more expensive. Um, just like the housing themselves, all the stuff that you have to put in the ground before the houses ever get there is all going up. And those are challenges that you know some taxpayers don't want to pay. Um, and you know, a lot of that's getting on the backs of builders and developers.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

So do you think um, you know, everybody's experienced a shortage in labor? It's kind of the the national call-out ride, everybody to get back into trades. And I think it's actually starting to make a swing back the other way now.

SPEAKER_04 31:13

Um it's been a long time coming. We've been screaming about this since like 2010 at the Capitol. Sure. But I think with the state and and local governments and school districts, they've made a lot of hay there. Do you feel like we've moved that Titanic or Queen? Not let's not use Titanic, that Queen Mary has been has been slowly turning. Do you feel like we're we've actually made the turn now that we're I don't know if we've made the turn completely, but we're definitely pointing back in the other direction. Sure. Um, you know, there was 40 years of um older than you guys, but 40 years of everybody vocational education, and that was a dirty word, and schools abandoned uh vocational education, and now we've seen from public schools to community colleges, trade schools, higher ed, have all embraced uh career and technical education. And um people, even the education establishment, which fought us for a long time. Um, they were very much on the everybody, including you know, public ed, was saying everybody has to get a four-year degree, let's go to college. It's all about college prep. And we would always say it isn't an either or. You can go get certified and pay for your college if that's what you want to do, instead of taking out a bunch of debt, but you will always have a trade. And so many of these tradespeople, they lead to they are small business owners, become some of them large business owners. We know builders, I mean, we know tradespeople in in some of the big cities who are bigger than our biggest production builders, um, you know, giant plumbing contractors and electrical contractors and HVAC and others. And so uh we're seeing that. And it's recognized the legislature has has done monumental efforts um to change all this and allow dual credit and allow the community colleges and and uh junior colleges to partner with the high schools and offer dual credit so people can graduate high school um and already be an apprentice plumber or already have early certificates and lead to more. And so it's something that we're really proud of. And then I I think it's an example, a very good example of the association being a bigger voice than we could all be on it by ourselves. No one person or even group of you know, 10, 20 people could get done what our collective association, and it's not just our association, it's not just the home builders in Austin. We partner with the Chemical Council, the Texas Oil and Gas Association, Association of Manufacturers, all those smokestack associations that are building stuff who have the same issues we have. Uh we have a strong coalition there in Austin and been pushing this charge and meet all the time and work on this legislation, and so it's it's really paying off. And I think, you know, the the labor the housing slowdown is resulted in a labor slowdown a little bit too. But you know, it's not gonna get any better. So it's imperative that we train the next generation. The average age of a uh electrician in this state, and this state is like two years old, is 59, and a plumber in it's like 64 or something. Yeah, and so and that's that's old data. Um, and we had not been replacing those folks, and so we got to, and that the legislature recognizes that, and I think that's turning.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

There's a big push at this point for I mean, you've seen it in a lot of data that they put out of the amount of jobs that are going towards that are being done by AI now, and those things, the construction industry, a lot of that manufacturing stuff is being just kind of put up on a pedestal, is like the pocket of if you still want a job in the future. These are the things that are really hard for how to replace. And so not only is it good for overall uh being able to get more people into the trades, just in general, we need it here and really locally, but uh, I think across the nation, people are seeing this nervousness that's you're more AI craft. Yeah, it's like okay, which jobs can we get that will be still be here in 20 years? Because that is a new focus for kids starting in the going into college now. Is is this is a job I want to pursue gonna still be here in 20 years? And that has been kind of a relatively new shift, at least in my thinking, over the last few years.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

Yeah, I want the college spends a lot of a lot of time talking about the the AI shift and certain jobs you just do not want to take.

SPEAKER_04 35:24

Well, you think about it, even like manufacturing, a lot of that that's done in factories, it will be replaced by A but AI. But what y'all do, it's still built outside in the mud, in the elements, a lot with natural materials. Um, there, you know, there are places I I'm sure over the next uh decades we'll see that have become more automated, but there will always be the need for uh folks swinging hammers and and and sawing wood and doing things that in our industry, and I think and that's something that is important. That's something that I think folks, whether they're kids or older folks changing careers, um, has been uh it's been attractive.

SPEAKER_05 36:06

One thing I saw that I just said to my my son is uh feels it was on social media, so I'm sure it's true. But it was the it was the graph and it was talking about the jobs um that AI could could replace initial percentages. And I did see that because church was very low portal and it makes perfect sense. I mean as good as these little robots are gonna be, I don't think they're gonna be framing a house and um or anything like that. So it was it was interesting. I said it to myself because I wanted to see that as he's pursuing his college career and try to try to just foresee the future of what can be.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

Well, I think even uh even if you if you were we're trying to play the advocate for it, let's say they were building houses. I don't know, we were 3D printing concrete houses, I don't know, whatever the new technology that we don't even know is they do the neighborhood north of Austin.

SPEAKER_04 36:55

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 36:55

They have I mean there's there's those things going on, but there's 35 plus thousand components that go into a house. That's 35 plus possible situations for something, thousand situations for them to go wrong, right? That's a lot of errors that can happen to solve all those errors with AI consistently. That's that's the real issue, I think, would would be there.

SPEAKER_04 37:18

Well, and those 3D printed homes, they still had to be finished out. It wasn't like it spit out and finished house. No, no, no, so there's there's still lots and lots of trades are involved even with those.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

And they still yeah, they still took a highly trained professional to run that equipment, uh, and a highly trained professional to design the equipment and the house for it. So um, yeah, I can see how construction is definitely on the bottom of the list of threatened by young people need another thing to worry about.

SPEAKER_04 37:47

Now they have to worry about will their career go away.

SPEAKER_06 37:53

So, what do you think? I mean, we've got three builders here in the room. Um, what do you what do you guys do to engage the trade school or have you been able to engage with the trade schools to kind of show the value or say, like, hey, when you're done, come see me, we'll get you get you set up. Is that something that you guys have done historically?

SPEAKER_03 38:12

I think we're working towards that here. We do do two cult co-op programs. One of them uh we do with Habitat for Humanities. You can't graduate our program without going through Habitat Humanities.

SPEAKER_04 38:30

Who is a member? They have is they may have the most builder memberships in the state. Habitat does all their chapters are members across the state.

SPEAKER_03 38:37

Yeah, but it's a great place for our kids to go and at least spend four to six weeks just getting their hands wet, framing or whatever it may be, because we get them back, and then the next thing we do, we interpret them. I mean, we question them over what they enjoy doing, and you know, sometimes when we get kids that come in, and I'll I've got one example is we have a young man come in, had a bathroom degree in business. He got it at MT. He came to our program and he said, I'm gonna be first. Okay, you're gonna be first. Well, it wasn't too long, about a year later, we had a plumber come in and give a little spill on plumbing. All of a sudden, you shifted plumbing, and uh we're we're seeing some of that. Uh and it's I'm glad to see that we are able to have the kids come in and get their hands a little bit dirty everywhere, right? So they so if they think they want to do, oh, I'm gonna be an electrician like my dad, well, all of a sudden they're not. They're framing or doing stuff.

SPEAKER_04 39:57

It's exposure. I mean, I was very much exposure. I was joking about it earlier, but it's really not a joke. You know, so many people they live in the built environment, but they never think about if you didn't grow up or have relatives that are in the business, um, you don't think about how this room was built or this building was built. You just think it's here, right? Just here. So it's all about exposure and and letting these folks realize one, there's great jobs, you can make great money, you can have a career for life. Um, but just the scope of all that's entailed with the dozens and dozens of different trades and suppliers and manufacturers and salespeople and bankers and title um that are doing all of these things and realtors, um, that there's so much involved. That's one of the things that's so great about this industry is there's so many different um companies and trades and people involved on every single project. And so that that but that's all about exposure. I mean, it's um you know, you don't you're to to think a kid or anybody is gonna understand that without seeing it and experiencing it.

SPEAKER_02 40:59

It's it's been and realistically, academia has suppressed it so much in the last 40 years. Yeah, I was gonna say three decades for sure, because when I was in school, it was it was not even an option. Didn't know I didn't know I could be a builder, didn't know that project manager was a thing.

SPEAKER_04 41:14

Didn't even know anything about it.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

Uh I had no idea that that, you know, and I ended up ended up coming here naturally, and and that's a blessing, and I'm happy and and and thrilled with it.

SPEAKER_04 41:25

But that doesn't happen organically.

SPEAKER_02 41:27

It usually does, it's a it's a rare case. And and academia is has started to make the turn, and they're still not there yet, because even the students that we do have at our um with our program currently, they base these students on how successful academia thinks they're going to be. And ironically, the ones that are in the red charts have the highest grades in the class, and it clicks with them so quick. And so that's one of the most interesting things that I've gotten to see as as an adjunct there, is they're like the chance of this kid finishing this program is really slim. And you want to just turn around and be like, he's the best student in the class, right? And that's pretty cool to see. But I do think academia is finally making it.

SPEAKER_04 42:12

And that kid has an opportunity to start making money when they graduate at 18 or 19 years old, not you know, maybe college isn't going to be their jam, right? And so that's and that's what academia is moving towards getting there, is getting that mindset. Um, and that is a bipartisan, you know, both sides of the aisle are on that program. They all we have legislators of all stripes coming to us saying, what can we do? We want to pass bills, we want to work on this issue, and that has been a change. It was crickets before 2010. Um, there was nobody on either side wanting to work on it, and now they all want to um, you know, like we almost got a billion dollars. We got 850 million last session out of the legislature. So that tells you how you know popular it is, and I think that is a mindset that I think um has changed nationally, and it's certainly changing in Texas.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

Yeah, we're we're pretty excited. Aaron on the college's uh construction tech is only uh we're four, no, we're actually fourth year in because when Ernie came the first year from Canyon, that was the first year that we really didn't we didn't have any education on the construction side going on. It you know, it was all advanced manufacturing, it was all welding, automatic, paint, things like that was going on out there, which are needed as well, which was needed as well, and uh young and me decided to jump in with both feet, and so then I started recruiting some friends of mine to help teach, and it's and I don't do it for the money. No, I really don't need Jordan and I need one do it. We do it to pass on what we know and to get. That the kids to the next slide.

SPEAKER_04 44:03

It's so rewarding. We have a Builders Foundation on the state level. We've raised millions of dollars now that we've given out in scholarships and trying to push that. But I think one of the most telling things is seeing local school districts and some of the unbelievable construction trades, buildings that they're building, and other CT stuff. And so that's neat. I've seen that across the state, and you're seeing more and more of those. And the voters approving bond elections to do that, and these things coming out of the ground, the districts would not have spent money on that two decades ago. No. So the fact that these things are getting built, I think, says everything you need to know.

SPEAKER_02 44:36

I agree. I agree. It's really neat. Well, you guys have any other questions? Anything interesting?

SPEAKER_00 44:45

No burning questions for me, but I do appreciate as a builder what C and D offers, and just I'm not a lawyer by trade, I'm a builder. And being able to have the contracts and things that we have that you guys have worked countless hours on to make the let's go back 35 years, yeah. To really help be able to mean that's that's an easy transition for somebody who wants to dive into building, but it's like, I don't have a contract, I don't know a lawyer that I need to talk to.

SPEAKER_04 45:15

We'd cost you tens of thousands of dollars to hire a lawyer and get them done, and you can get them these for 600 bucks to your subscription, the entire package. There's dozens and dozens and dozens of forms and addenda. Um, those are available on our website, texasbuilders.org, uh, for members only. Um, you can contact us on the state level, uh, our state association. Um, but that's just one thing. We have insurance programs, discounts, uh, business coaching available. There's all kinds of programs available for our members uh that get your money's worth for your dues. If you just take the time to look and see what we have. You talk about that in membership.

SPEAKER_05 45:52

Yeah, if you're if you're a builder, so it is so easy to pay for your dues just on rebates. Um, there's a rebate program out there and it takes just a little bit of time. When I say a little bit of time, a little bit of time, you know, pay for I mean, if you're doing just a decent amount of volume, it will pay for your dues.

SPEAKER_04 46:09

We have members that get tens of thousands of dollars rebated every year.

SPEAKER_05 46:12

And then it's got brought up, you know, and chase we're talking too the the contracts. If you go try to get an attorney, you know how expensive attorneys are. I mean, you could spend six hundred dollars in two hours. So to have a full contract package is I mean, it's it's just it's great. So it allows it where you can just jump in and get going. But those contracts are great. And I'd say if you're a builder listening to this and you're not using the tab contracts, you're you're you're playing with fire. Um I'll I'll tell you, I mean builders and remodelers. Yeah, yeah, and remodelers. I'd say it's nothing nothing big on us, but we had a house um before that the hot water heater, a line ruptured on the hot water heater. It's nothing we did, it just it just happened. It flooded the client's house. This was four years after they they moved in, and uh that tab contract saved us because our insurance company tried to come after us. And you know, with that language in there.

SPEAKER_04 47:07

Well, it it it provides expectations not only for the builder, but for the homeowner. That's what's so important, and it has a warranty and performance standards, so the party understands how you're gonna get these things fixed. Um, and and it creates you know, contract disputes and constructions very litigious um because of all these different people and all these products that go into the house. Um, but because there's so many different things involved and so many different people involved, and we're all human, there's errors and misunderstandings. And so the contracts, uh, some of them are a little wordy, but it is trying to create expectations. So both parties know what to expect. Homeowner knows what the builder's gonna do, the builder knows what the homeowner wants them to do, and then the builder creates these expectations and tries to build to what they've promised in the contract. And so they're very important, and we're proud that they've become the industry standard um and are available there.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

I think they're they're very fair to the homeowner, absolutely as well as the builder. They're not builder biased. Uh, in fact, I would I would go out as far to say if you were building a home and had a builder that had a a custom um lawyer-made contract, it's probably a very good idea that you also get your lawyer to look at it because those can be pretty heavily one-sided. Um, whereas you come across a tab contract, you can kind of rest easy knowing that you're you're taken care of in that contract. And that's really nice.

SPEAKER_05 48:30

You know, you get on a little bit with the warranty on it. You know, I love it for my clients. And you know, and you and Scott, I know you say this, but you know, it's nice to have it in writing, it really protects both parties. But to have that warranty in writing, it is long, it's 30 plus pages a year. There's a lot on a lot of naturals, yeah. But I reverted in there so the clients can hold us accountable too. I mean, because if you sure if you don't have that, it's um you're just you're almost just guessing at what the warranty standards would be. So it is great protection for for the clients. It's it's a good roadmap for the builder. Um, but that's just one of the parts that tab does. And once you get involved in it and you see that, that's when you start seeing like, wow, man, tab really does a lot in the services. And then if you if you think, ah, the it's it's too expensive to join. Let me tell you, I could show you wave, as long as you're building a couple homes a year, you're paying for your dues, you know, through that builder rebate program. Yeah, it's it's really not that hard. You just have to put in a little bit of time.

SPEAKER_04 49:28

And all those member programs, you know, that we have a dozen or more, are all on the website, texasbuilders.org. And I also want to put in a plug. It's not just the elected directors from the Panhandle Builders and our other local associations and our other committee members and those sorts of things. All of our tab meetings, we meet three times a year, uh usually in Austin, trade show Sunbelt, which is this summer, we didn't talk about um July 21st through 24th. It's gonna be our 25th year for our big building trade show. It's gonna be in San Antonio at the convention center down by the Riverwalk and at the Hyatt down there. That's gonna be great. So hopefully, some folks, I know it's a long way from Amarillo to San Antonio, but it's a great spot. Um, and that's right, there's airplanes. And so um I hope to see some of y'all there. But any of our meetings, we're meeting next week in Bassrop for our springboard meetings. Um, any of our members are the all of our committee meetings are open to all of our members. So I encourage you uh and the members listening to this to come to a meeting. Um, if nothing else, it's an excuse to bring you and your significant other to Austin or Dallas or San Antonio or wherever we're meeting and come. There's going to be a committee meeting that you're interested in. We have a developers council, we have um the government relations committee, we have PAC meetings, talking politics, codes, um, you know, all kinds of things, legal affairs, attorney council for the attorneys in our industry. Um, there is a committee and subject matter for people to get engaged in, whatever floats your boat, our Builders Foundation workforce. Uh, we have a workforce committee that's working on a lot of these trade issues. So there is something, and it's just like anything else. You show up, we'll put you to work, we'll get you engaged. Um, and then meetings are a lot of fun too. There's usually fundraisers and social events as well. So that's my plug. Come to a meeting. I hope to see you there. I might I might even buy you a Coca-Cola or something else.

SPEAKER_05 51:13

I was about to say, if you're new, you haven't been, you come, come to San Antonio, come to the Builder Show. Um, we're gonna have a little event at uh Howl at the Moon.

SPEAKER_04 51:22

Yeah, we're having a big fundraiser at the Howl of the Moon on the Riverwalk, and there's gonna be all kinds of fun stuff happening down there in the Alamo City.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

Well, I I appreciate both of you guys being on the podcast and taking time out of your day uh to be on on this and and uh being able to present this to the rest of the TBBA members, that way they can come back and watch it later. Uh so I wanted to close out with with one final question. So this year will be my my my first year as a uh elected director for the state. So it's actually my first year going to the state.

SPEAKER_04 51:54

You come to Bass Trump next week.

SPEAKER_02 51:55

Well, I won't be there, but my first one will be um at Sunbelt. We'll be at Sunbelt. Um buy you a drink. So it's a question to both of you guys, and and uh one to see what what advice, what's the one thing I've got to do, what's your which what's a key a key thing I should focus on when I go to the phone.

SPEAKER_04 52:14

Well, I think what I was just talking about, my plug, and you've you then I want to hear it from a member. Look at that. There's gonna be so many committee meetings and so many things happening, it might be a little overwhelming. First, to remember everybody that's there at one point came to their first ever tab meeting. So don't be intimidated by that. Also, our members are so friendly and we'll talk to you, but pick stuff you're interested in. Um, you know, I don't think first meetings you go to, don't go to subject matters that you're not comfortable with, stuff that you care about. Come to those meetings, people will be glad. You know, one of the coolest things that our members talk about is they get to meet builders and developers and associate members and remodelers from all over the state who are dealing with the same stuff y'all are dealing with here. Um, and and a lot of our members build friends for life. And so I think pick the stuff you want to go to and just enjoy yourself and don't don't be intimidated, like I don't know what these people are talking about. This is all Greek to me. Um, you'll get it. And it's our folks are really receptive.

SPEAKER_05 53:10

Yeah, yeah. And I here's what I'd say. Tag out, tag along with that. Is you know, when you're going down, you will have a group from A'Real. Tag along with somebody that's done it before. And I'd say the biggest thing is just get involved. That's gossip. Find that thing that really interests you. Um, but then come and sit down and that's really cool to sit down on the GRC meeting. I mean, it's it's long. Be prepared. Um it's great.

SPEAKER_04 53:35

Um but when I say all of our meetings are open to all of our members, there are the people that are on the committees that senior officers appoint the committee members every year. But the committees, the meeting is everybody in the room. And so there are people that are not on the committees that stand up, ask questions, or talk, or whatever. It's open and that's what we want. We are a grassroots-led organization. And so our agenda and what we're going to work on and our direction comes from you, members, um, and rises up through our process. And yeah, we have to have committees and kind of filter it down so it's not an out-of-control mess with 10,000 people running wild. But that it is all input from our members from all over the state. So you can get as involved as you want to get, and it's a good time too.

SPEAKER_05 54:19

Well, the relationships you build. No, it's it's fantastic. It's opened up doors for me. Um just uh just being down there and getting to know everybody. You know, you have some of your your your best time getting to know people. I mean, I hate to say it is is after the meeting when you're having a cold cocktail and you get to get to learn about the family, you get to learn about where they live and more of their story. It's fantastic. But our our people are great, our associates are great, our builders are great. I we'll throw in a little plug here. Staff is great.

SPEAKER_04 54:49

Uh well fantastic. So I will say the Sunbelt Builder Show, too. Um, all of our exhibitors are from all over this, all over the country, really. And so I think it's an opportunity um for the associates to meet people, expand. There's all kinds of things that happen um that that a broader, you know, kind of a broader universe than just what you're seeing here in Amarillo or if you're just doing business in Dallas or wherever. So I look forward to seeing all of you um at a future tab meeting.

SPEAKER_05 55:17

Three drinks on Scott. You heard it here.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

Well, again, thank you guys very much for for joining us on the podcast. Um, that's it for the TPBA Builder Talk podcast. Uh, we'll look forward to the next episode. Um, we'll see you guys next time.

SPEAKER_07 55:34

Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_06 55:34

Thanks for having us. Thank you.