Let's Get Visible with Janine Coney- Personal Brand, Visibility and Business Success Coach
This podcast series is for female entrepreneurs and founders who are ready to elevate their visibility and create a powerful personal brand and business for their success. I am a Personal Brand, Marketing and Business Strategist based in the UK. I produce solo podcasts and chat with my industry-leading guests about all aspects of elevating a personal brand and business from getting more visible and positioning yourself as a recognised expert in your career or business. We talk about the highs and lows and I love to give impactful insights, tips and inspiration to help you grow.
Let's Get Visible with Janine Coney- Personal Brand, Visibility and Business Success Coach
Ep 51 - Summer Special: The Legal Safety Net Every Business Needs with Lucy Wheeler
Lucy Wheeler, aka Lucy Legal, CEO and Founder joins us to untangle legal fears, copycat culture, and AI blind spots that impact how confidently entrepreneurs show up in their businesses, revealing that visibility isn't just about having a voice - it's about being safe for yourself and your clients.
• Gold standard contracts should be tailored to your business and updated regularly as your operations and services evolve
• Using outdated terms (like COVID-19 references from 2020) signals to clients you haven't reviewed your legal foundations
• Contracts serve as boundaries, clearly outlining when you're available, what services include, and what they don't
• Trademarks protect names and logos while copyright protects your content and frameworks—know which protection fits each asset
• Consider trademarking when a name or brand feels essential to your business identity rather than just a temporary label
• Using online images without permission can result in licensing fee demands from companies like Getty Images
• AI policies should address whether note-takers are permitted in sessions and how recordings will be handled
• Having strong legal foundations isn't just about protection—it builds confidence that allows you to show up fully in your business
Connections:
You can connect with Lucy on Instagram here
Visit the Lucy Legal Website here
And join in with The Spin To Win Summer Event with Lucy Legal here
If you've been showing up halfway because of fear or not standing out as you want to, DM me the word "visible" and I'll show you what happens when your presence, message and brand match. I help connect the dots from where you are now to where you want to be and help you be seen as the leader you are in your business.
Visit my website for details about all my services and how to work with me
Take the Brand Heartbeat™ Assessment Quiz here - Ready to find out what your personal brand is really saying?Discover your Brand Heartbeat™ - is it saying what you want it to?
Download the FREE Elevated Expert Playbook here - Your brand isn’t just about what you do—it’s about how people see, remember, and choose you. If you’re not getting the clients or opportunities you want, it’s not because you’re not good enough—it’s because your personal brand, visibility and marketing aren't working for you fully - yet!.
This playbook will help you check in on where you might be holding yourself back and what to shift so your brand and business stands out effortlessly. It’s time to show up, be seen, and get recognised for what you do best
So welcome back to the let's Get Visible show, the podcast, where we go beyond the trends and talk about what really builds a brand that moves. And today I've got something really, really special lined up for you, and we are talking about something that a lot of people, I'm sad to say, still avoid, because visibility and your impact and your brand isn't just about a voice. It's about being safe, too not just safe for you, but safe for your clients, and the truth is, I've seen too many brilliant women hold themselves back online, not because they lack strategy, but because, deep down, they don't feel fully protected, and I don't want that for you. So today I'm joined by someone who's not just a legal expert. She's a protector of brands and voices, a woman who's helped hundreds, if not thousands, of founders claim their content, their ideas and their leadership from a place of full ownership. Lucy Wheeler, aka Lucy Legal, is here to help us untangle the legal fears, the copycat culture and the blind spots that we are seeing now around AI especially, and she is here to help us as seasoned entrepreneurs and to help us move our businesses forward.
Speaker 1:So, whether you are trademarked already or not, you are going to learn something here. So if you want to learn more about terms and conditions and maybe you haven't updated yours since 2020, then this one is definitely for you. I'm really excited to dig into this subject because it's something I've wanted to bring you onto my podcast to talk about for a while, having followed you throughout your journey of building your own business as well. So, first of all, welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. Thank you for having me and thank you very much for inviting me along and persisting and making this happen. I'm really excited to share things and hopefully change some perspectives today as well. I think if anybody's listening thinking oh, this is going to be a boring episode, I would ask you to continue listening, because we've got some special things to talk about and I think this might shift your perspective a little bit.
Speaker 1:Totally, totally. We are going to go in at more of a higher level rather than when people are starting out today, because those are the kind of women that I work with. So what I want to talk about first of all is obviously something around the legal gaps, something around the like legal gaps, and the thing is is even experienced founders are still overlooking a lot when it comes to legally protecting their brand. What do you think, lucy, are the main things that people are still overlooking, even if they've been in business, you know a year or two years or more, what keeps coming up for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is a great question and there are two things that come up time and time again and, as you say, it's actually experienced founders that this happens to, rather than people who are just starting out, who actually tend to now, I think, see legal in a different way and get their ducks in a row earlier. I think there is. I think first, it's important to say that there is this big thing that people think I've been in business for quite a while now. I should have already done this, and there's almost the burying the head in the sand, the feeling really bad and the guilt of like I should have done this before. It's a little bit embarrassing to do it when I'm at my level because they're a lot further ahead.
Speaker 2:And if that is you and you're thinking, yeah, that's why I'm listening, please don't be embarrassed.
Speaker 2:You and you're thinking, yeah, that's why I'm listening, please don't be embarrassed.
Speaker 2:Please don't think I would never judge anyone like a lot of people come to me in that way and say I know I should, I know I should have done this before, but I haven't, and if you are that person, then that that is okay. The fact that you're looking at it now is important and the two things that I see that people are missing is often a really good gold standard contract. And I call it a gold standard contract because people might have terms in place or they might have an agreement, but usually that agreement, if they're honest, has been copied and pasted from, maybe agreements that they've received, or it's something that they've used chat, gpt to create, or it's something that hasn't been created with their business in mind or where their business is now. So they may have gotten something right at the start, but they haven't actually looked at it again and they're still using the same agreement that they were using years ago and their business has moved on and the way they do business has moved on.
Speaker 1:I see a lot of this still with um, a lot of COVID-19. I see a lot of that in people's terms and conditions and contracts. You know we've moved on five years since then, so for me, I mean I know that doesn't matter as much because that might still stand, but it just shows how long ago somebody might look to play a contract.
Speaker 2:I think that's such a good point because I think if you're still expressly stated unless it's an event where I think event terms do still expressly always state COVID, because the events business and legal was just something very separate. But I think you're right, if you are a coach, for example, or a service provider, and you're still referencing actually the words COVID-19 in your contract, that shows that actually you haven't taken the lessons and the learnings from it and applied it to what actually needs to happen now, which is essentially about rescheduling. If things cannot go ahead, um, if you cannot deliver services, that's what should have been in there before. That you should have always had clauses in there. But if you hadn't, that's what you the lesson was from there to learn to like how am I going to shift things? Will I move? If I was always in person when I move online, you didn't need to be referencing that. So, yeah, you're completely right with that.
Speaker 2:I think it's having that gold standard contract that you feel confident in and I'll say it, you feel excited to send, because I think sometimes people get to the point they win a win, a dream contract, and then a dream client sorry, and then they're like, oh god, I've got to send them my contract now. I hope they don't ask any questions and you shouldn't be feeling that way. You should be feeling so proud and excited of like this is the bit where I get to shine. This is my onboarding experience that I'm giving to people and you don't want to have a bit of a leaky part in that component of bringing someone in. And I think one thing that could be really telling for you or sort of really hold the mirror up here, is if you were to win just like everyone that's listening pause and think if you were to to win your dream client tomorrow. So you open up your, your um mailbox and somebody comes to you. They say I want to work with you and don't even need to get on a call. I just know you're, I've been watching you for a while, I want to work with you and you're like that's literally who was on my dream, dream list to work with, how, what kind of experience would you want them to have of starting to work with you? And obviously you know what results you can do that your dream client. You know how you'll get there, but what's that experience that you want to give them through that whole first phase. You don't want to be giving them a shoddy contract that possibly doesn't support them, doesn't protect them, doesn't, doesn't really feel good.
Speaker 2:If you're based in the UK, it's got Americanisms. If you're based in America, it's got English phrases. It wants to match the service that you're going to provide and I think that's where people really underestimate the power of good legal protection in their business. If you are someone who thinks, oh, legal is just that bit on the footer of the website, you are totally missing an opportunity to really up-level the service you provide. Protect your clients, show them that you know what you're doing, as you say, show them your experience. You're not still talking about things that were five years ago. You know what they are going to be concerned with and you've put all of that in a document that's packaged up in a way that's easy to read and that feels good yeah, no, that makes total sense to me because I know certainly when I onboard people on my VIP programs, I take them not just through the legal side of things.
Speaker 1:There's loads of other bits that I send them to them too that are going to take us through our journey together.
Speaker 1:So it's not just a case of come into my world and you've paid a deposit and then that's kind of it I think. Feel like, especially if people are paying a higher ticket, they've got to feel that kind of nurturing from the start as well and also to feel safe with you. But you've also got to feel safe with them, and this isn't meant to just expose or talk about things that could go wrong. We hope that they don't. But sometimes and somewhere along the line, there is going to be something that's going to come up, probably where you are going to need to look at your terms and conditions or you're going to think I need to look at that. I wish I'd covered that and I've seen that so much with people that I've mentoring, not in sometimes in huge ways, but but in small ways. If they'd had themselves covered, that would not have laid them quite as open as it has done to feeling what do I do in this situation? Because they haven't had something clearly outlined for it.
Speaker 2:You're right, and it's not even you're so right in this that it's not the big things. I think that we can all guess most people have the big things, like if you pay, if you don't pay, those kind of things. They're the obvious things, but it's those things that actually is going to make you and them feel really good working together. So it's things that people don't include in their, in their terms about, like, the way that they can be communicated with, like when are you available? And I think, especially in this day and age and especially when you've got a high ticket client, you feel like you should be available to them all the time.
Speaker 2:And I often say contracts are boundaries.
Speaker 2:They're the things that you put it in place, exactly what you're going to deliver and what you're not going to deliver.
Speaker 2:So if you are someone who is trying to shift away to a like shift to a four-day working week, for example, and you don't want to work Fridays or you don't want to work Mondays, that needs to be in your contract so that when you do see a message, inevitably that comes in on a Friday or a Monday, you don't feel like you need to jump in now.
Speaker 2:Obviously it's going to depend slightly on what you do, like even when I say, when I say to clients I'm not working, something inevitably happens and I always jump in because that's the level of service that those clients are paying me for and it's that reaction. And even when I'm off, they know if, if something really terrible has happened, that I will support them. But that's very, very that's a rare set of circumstances and that's because it's legal advice, which is often very time sensitive. But for most people they've had like an idea about their business or they want to chat something through. You mean, like at 10 o'clock at night, yeah, they've had an idea, idea about their business, or they want to chat something through.
Speaker 2:You mean like at 10 o'clock at night yeah, they've had an idea and they're sending you something and I think it's really important for you as a business owner to hold those boundaries. And actually, if you're working with higher ticket clients, if they're trying to move to to be that themselves, it's about modeling. That's the way that you behave and I think that there's a definitely a conversation to be had about that as to how you lead your clients and how you say to them if they're trying to do what sort of emulate what you're doing, you're holding the space and saying I don't work those days and therefore I'm not replying to you, because I said I wouldn't and it was in our terms at the start. And I'm not saying don't over, deliver in other ways and create an incredible experience. You still should. But it's about being really clear and saying, like you won't hear from me on those days, I'll pick that up on the next day when I'm next in um, and that's okay totally right and I think again.
Speaker 1:I think that comes with experience and confidence, because I think when people start out and I think I was probably guilty of it too you want to please everybody. Were you like that, lucy? 100%.
Speaker 2:I still do you do.
Speaker 1:It's not about providing a poor level of service, yeah but then there comes a point you know you've got to have your boundaries in place because with love, some people will push the boundaries and you can find yourself just getting messaged, messaged, messaged and all of us have to have that downtime.
Speaker 1:So I think it comes from a place of putting the boundaries in place for your own well-being as well, and then thinking a little bit like you were when you were at an office, when you walked out at the end of the day, you kind of that was it, your job was done, and in a sense, as much as any of us who work in our own businesses know it's not like that really. We have to, in a sense, work in our own businesses, know it's not like that really. We have to, in a sense, set our own boundaries and stick by them because otherwise you will I don't want to use the word get walked over, because I don't feel I've ever been walked over and I don't want to sound that insensitive. But you don't want to get into that space where you literally just feel like you're open to everybody 24 7, because then what happens?
Speaker 2:people will take advantage of that, sadly yeah, and I think it's about shifting the perspective on it as well and actually thinking is there a business opportunity here?
Speaker 2:so what I often say to my clients is you need to tell them what's included and also what's not included. That's one of the key things that should always be in your contract. Don't just say this is what I do, this is what you're not going to get for me, so you're not going to get support on a Friday like that's the Well, what if someone then? That then leaves the opportunity for them to say but I want that support.
Speaker 2:And that's what I'm talking about with my clients that are part of my because I've got a law firm as well. They are retained clients in a law firm, so you can imagine the retainer that they're paying monthly to get that level of support and therefore it's an exchange for me that I am willing to have, that I have people who can have me on speed dial at a price, and then that's the thing, and I think that's where people miss the opportunity to think this is where this tariff is. This is the program I'm offering and if you want the support, it's available, but it's more money. Or this is how I can support you in a different way and you can upsell and there's no one-to-one included with this, but there is in this program and people go well, I, of course, I want one-to-ones with you and therefore you upsell. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:and I think that's a really good point and, I think, a way to think of that in your head. It's a bit like if you call an emergency plumber out at the weekend. Like you know, you pay more for somebody in that situation than you do if you book something in and you book another service. So we can't be all things to all people and I do think maybe we're going a little bit off tangent here, but we have. You have to remember that even in your lower ticket offers, because what you can end up doing inadvertently is offering the same service to somebody because they're asking you all these questions as you do to somebody in your higher ticket, because you don't want to seem like you're not offering a good service to that person. So we could talk about this for hours, but it's a really good point.
Speaker 1:It's knowing the boundaries, setting them and making them really clear and by putting them in your terms and conditions when you're onboarding which is what I do with with all of my programs now I make it super clear. I've just come to the end of a week-long container that I did with a group of coaches and I made it clear to them when I would be in there how many times a day. I would be in in the telegram group as well, because so that people don't think because you can't be in there 24, 7 answering everybody's questions all the time. You know, I made that super clear and I made it super clear when it would end. But with love, I took them through the whole process so they all understood and they respected that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think you just touched on something really important there, because you said the phrase 24 seven, and often I see that in people's terms I'll say 24 seven boxer support or telegram support, and I just straight away. And that's the thing. If imagine how your clients going to feel if they read that, because we're all clever individuals. They're going to know that you don't mean that as well and they're going to think well, this person isn't as experienced as they make out, because they've put something like that that's just totally not deliverable on um. And then they begin to question.
Speaker 2:And that's why I'm saying you need the gold standard contract to really support you and actually elevate your business as you go forward. And then the second thing that I always recommend is that people really understand their brand protection. So it may be that you do need a trademark or it may be that you don't need a trademark. You need to look at that and understand and understand the wider implications, not just in the UK, because they're territorial, but wider in the US or Australia or where you need to understand where your brand is protected and where it isn't.
Speaker 2:And you also need to understand with your IP what you own and what you don't and what you're giving to clients and what you could license to them and whether there's white labeling opportunities, because there's so many opportunities within your IP that people totally gloss over and miss and again they can become another source of revenue. I've got a lot of people who very successfully white label their trainings or they just have people paying them for trainings they've done, or clients and continue to pay them for access to their IP, and so I think understanding the way that IP works and really and really feeling confident with that is the other really big piece that really helps elevate business owners when they understand it oh, it's so good.
Speaker 1:I love all of this. So when I mean without, obviously we can't go into too much depth because, honestly, lucy and I would hear be here all day. But with trademarks, copyright, all of this, how do people know when to use it? How do you know when to use it? How do you know when to trademark something, for instance? How would they in their minds, what triggers should they have? That they're thinking and you think with your legal head on. Obviously, this is when you should be doing this.
Speaker 2:Sure, and this is such a good question because, again, sadly, it's something that a lot of people get wrong and learn the hard way. So there are very quickly. There are four types of IP. Get wrong and learn the hard way. So there are very quickly. There are four types of ip, and copyright and trademarks are two of those types, the others being patents and trade secrets.
Speaker 2:But speaking to copyright and trademarks, at the moment your trademarks cover your names, um, and of your program. So it might cover a name or a word, a slogan or an image. It's not actually the process, the framework, which is your copyright. So if you're thinking of doing something and you've got a really great idea for a new name, before you do anything, check, do the searches to see if it's available, Because if you start using it and it's already registered by somebody else, you might be committing trademark infringement by accident, so you may receive a cease and desist. So right at the start, it really important to to ensure that you've got clearance so it's clear the way through to use that name. It's just very quick to do to do some like rudimental searches and then, once you're happy with that, you don't have to jump into trademarking straight away. You can use the name, sit with it, see, see what you think. If you're going to use it, might have another idea and think, oh, actually that's not really resonating with people.
Speaker 1:I know sometimes you move on. You love it to begin with. Later you go.
Speaker 2:That's a keen now or somebody else uses it and you're like, oh no, there's this wording or the feeling of it doesn't make one word.
Speaker 1:You know, you see, I'm I don't know why. Like unstoppable is a big word that's used a lot and I've used it in the past. Can you trademark one word that can be so easily used by other people?
Speaker 2:you can trademark. Another word. So really annoyingly with the with the side of trademarks is the legislation doesn't say what you can trademark. It says what you can't trademark. Right, and in some ways that is helpful. But what essentially it says is you can't trademark something that's descriptive. So you couldn't trademark the women's health coach, for example, because it's descriptive of what you're doing, providing health coaching for women to women. But you could trademark something like unstoppable, where it doesn't mean anything, and so the trade, the case law around it says that you have to.
Speaker 2:A consumer, when presented with that trademark, needs to want to know more. They need to. It needs to pique their interest and they need to have to find out more about it. So when it's the women's health coach, I don't really need to find out more because I know what they'll be doing. But if it's unstoppable, I don't know If that's. If it says it's a coaching program, I don't know what that means. I don't know if you're teaching me to drive and I'm going to be unstoppable, or if I'm like I don't know what at all. You'd have to find out more.
Speaker 1:So you can trademark a word, but then you also can't trademark something if it's so commonly used that's why I get confused, like I think unstoppable is like a word in the English language, like you've just said, that could be used in so every different niche could have. So that's where I personally get confused over should somebody trademark that or not? Because does that, then you'd have to look everywhere to stop everybody using the word unstoppable and I think that's where.
Speaker 2:So people can still use it in the general phrase, in general, like they can't stop. They couldn't stop us from using unstoppable when they're talking about something. But if they, for example, you wanted to have a podcast called unstoppable and you wanted to register that and I have no idea if this is available as a trademark, by the way, so just speaking as a just an example um, then you could trade that mark, that in a pod, in the podcast class, and then you would have to stop everyone else from using it. But the really important part of trademarks again, this is the part where I think people don't fully understand them is you have a duty and a requirement to stop people using it. So if you do get it, you would have to also stop other people using it. So you don't want to get something that's already been used. You wouldn't probably get that anyway because the trademark office would say it's just general, it's just a general word. Now it doesn't, it doesn't have enough with it to make it a trademark, and you'd also then have to stop everybody else to protect it.
Speaker 2:Because there are brand, there are things that were trademarks, such as yo-yo and trampoline, that got declassified as trademarks because people just use it in the day-to-day like. You know what those things are when I'm talking about them. They were brands, they were registered trademarks and they got declassified because it just became a commonly used word, um, and so you have to. Yeah, you have to be prepared to protect what you're registering as well. But what I say to people is there's no set time.
Speaker 2:It's not that you have to trademark on day one or before you start before day one, but I, what I say is if you were to wake up one morning and you were to open your emails, or you were to open your phone and you were to like, receive an email from, like your competitor and they're using that name, how would it make you feel? And if you're like I'd be gutted, like I've put everything into this name, this is my name, this is my thing, then you are ready to trademark. But if you would be like, oh, I was gonna do that so annoying, I should have done that quicker, never mind, and you can move on, then it's probably not something that you would need to invest in and protect in your business because you've not gotten to the stage where it means so much for you.
Speaker 1:Okay, that makes sense. And copyright, I mean I use copyright with everything that I write and in any of my brochures that I write um. Does that have any standing in itself really for people?
Speaker 2:yeah. So copyright is the right that you have to be copied. So you you as a creator you own the rights and you're doing the right thing by saying I'm reserving those rights. So what you're probably saying is you include a reservation of rights statement, which is normally the copyright symbol your, your business name and the year and then it says all rights reserved. That's your reservation of rights statement and that's what you'll see at the bottom of websites or those kind of things. And essentially that's people saying I'm reserving the right for you to copy me, so I'll decide whether you can copy me or whether you can use this or not. For you to copy me, so I'll decide whether you can copy me or whether you can use this or not.
Speaker 2:Most of the time, what most people are doing, they don't want to be copied, so the rights are reserved and you're not going to give them away.
Speaker 2:But in certain circumstances, actually, you want to license those rights, you want to share them.
Speaker 2:You want to agree that in certain circumstances, people can use it either in marketing or promotion, um, and it's understanding those kind of things, even with things like this, with podcast recordings, like who owns the creative rights, when it's understanding those kind of things. Even with things like this, with podcast recordings, like who owns the creative rights when it's two people, you need to make sure that you are the podcast host. You have the rights, but you also want podcast guests to be able to have the right to share things and but ultimately, who's gonna? Who's gonna own it? And if you're someone who's doing um training or guest expert sessions, do you? Who owns the rights to those sessions? It's really important that you have an agreement and decide who's going to have it, because you may, as a guest expert, turn up to a session, deliver that training, and then find out it's in a course that's being sold to other people and you need to make sure you've covered that off before you end up with those kind of awkward conversations.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a really good point. You've opened something in my mind there. There's two things. One is when you go to deliver something for somebody else and then people automatically say to you can I have the slides? And I've now got to the point where it's not an automatic. You can have the slides from everything, and I think that's fine because that's my intellectual property. But I also feel that we all have to be careful when we are recording zooms as well, that you have a lot of people's faces on there, but you also have some people who may have asked a question on there, and then if you're going to share that recording afterwards I know I'm going a bit deeper here, but surely you've got to be careful from that point of view, do you, or am I overthinking? Yeah, no, you're not overthinking it so we're shifting as well.
Speaker 2:When this is moving on in terms of, like GDPR and your protection of rights with your community and things, and definitely, yes, in terms of, if you're doing a training, can you then go on to sell it, is it?
Speaker 2:If it's going to go into a membership site? You have to be really clear in your terms for your membership or your mastermind or whatever it might be, that you're recording people and that people are going to be, that recording is going to be kept and therefore you need to then think what's a reasonable amount of time for these recordings to be kept, because if you've got something like a mastermind where people potentially now a lot of what I see at the moment is people have masterminds and they roll through, so it might be just six months minimum and then three months rolling. That's really successful model that I'm seeing at the moment, because people don't necessarily want to sign up for the year, or if enough for the year, you want to make sure that something rolling afterwards you don't have to resell them in. Or, if you're not for the year, you want to make sure there's something rolling afterwards, you don't have to resell them in, and so I see that. But then someone who's gone through that year process with you they probably don't want them.
Speaker 1:a year ago and their questions are necessarily being put forward. I've had that as well, and I'm like I did not realize that my video me being in your was that was going to be aired to other people a year later. So I'm really, really wary about that. So I'm not wrong to be wary, then.
Speaker 2:No, you're not wrong to be wary, and I think it's also about, like, when you do sessions and I'll often say to people, yeah, happy to do a session, a training, but it's only current at the time. It's current and that's very obviously niche for me because I'm a lawyer, but it's not totally um um incorrect for other people to have the same position. For some, social media probably well, definitely moves way quicker than the law. Like social media will probably be very out of date within three to six months. What works before. You don't want to be seen to be the person recommending something and then people be like why are they still recommending that?
Speaker 1:it doesn't, that doesn't work and it's because it was old, but also I've seen a case where you might go into somebody else's training as a guest, not a guest as an attendee. You've bought into it. They ask questions. I've seen people get vulnerable and talk about problems they might have in their business or the next level they're trying to get to and they've asked the question being given it, but then that recording is then made available to loads of other people afterwards and I'm like, oh, that's uncut. That feels uncomfortable to me, because that person came in not realizing that their voice was then going to be or video was going to be used maybe in something else that other people they didn't even know and probably didn't want to know a question they were getting vulnerable over.
Speaker 2:So I do feel I think yeah, and I think you're right and I think that's why terms and conditions are so important. So the terms and conditions of sale of that must say it's just a one-off master class or for somebody, and the terms and conditions should be saying this this training is going to be recorded and will be utilized and will be shared at least up to a year later, possibly longer, and then you can give people the option and I think it's important essentially to use disclaimers properly and you'll have hear people, like in the fitness industry, when they say anybody you'll hear it in front of a fitness class or even online. Anybody that's um, recently had an injury or anything like that, let me know. And you're giving the disclaimers out.
Speaker 2:Essentially, if you're recording a masterclass, you need to say to people at the start this session is being recorded. I'm about to hit record in a moment. If you don't want to be on the recording, you can switch your camera off and then change your name to Janine, just have that. Or if you think that's going to be identifiable, it just needs to be your initials, you know, so that you can still people can then still interact with you in the session and you can put your hand up and you can say but, yeah, it needs to be really clear that your, your visuals, your voice, your likeness will all be used and will be then sold on as well, or even if it's just reshared in that group.
Speaker 1:You can make it clear, can't you? This video will only be shared within the group, the container that you're in, and it will not be used for anything else afterwards. That's what I kind of try to do in all, um, but, yeah, I think it's good to talk about this. We're not trying to throw shade on anybody, but I've seen it and I've been in that situation, and I don't think it's ever done intentionally by anybody. But, um, it's really important that we're we're aware of it and we can, you know, we can make sure it doesn't happen in our own spaces.
Speaker 1:Really, the other thing, lucy, is how do you feel about? I see a lot of people thinking still thinking this comes from my days of working in media that they can use any photographs and your face. If you're listening on the podcast, lucyy's face just did the grimace that mine would normally do. So how do you feel about? How do people cover themselves there? Because you see a lot of people using photos from pinterest now or photos that maybe have been in the press. Um, and I get it, I see why, but still, we have to be careful, don't we?
Speaker 2:you definitely do with photos and with music, and I think that this falls under the umbrella of what I was talking about, the start of understanding what ip is, which, again, is so far reaching, but it's essentially copyright. If we go back to that, um, what I just said before about, if you create something, you own the rights to it. Therefore, if you've not created it, you don't own the rights. If you didn't create that picture, you don't own the rights to it. So why would you think you can use it? And I think when we look at it like that, you're like that is really obvious. Why did I think I could use it? Because it's not mine and we think we can use it because we see everybody else doing it.
Speaker 2:We see lots of people doing the press where a celebrity uses a photo that's been taken of them without them agreeing that it could be even taken. They like we post that photo and then they get sued by the photographer for using that photo. They're like what? How can this be right that I'm being sued to be using a photo of me and you took it without my permission and it is because you don't own the rights to that image? And it's something that a lot of people but nobody talks about the legal stuff, apart from, obviously, I do, but in terms of like, nobody in the day-to-day is saying I've just been sued for using an incorrect image but I I don't know. We get it regularly I don't say daily at the moment, but weekly.
Speaker 2:Someone will email us and say hey, I've just received a request for a payment for licensing fees like Getty or something like that, yeah, for an image I've used.
Speaker 1:They will be on you like a shot if you use a Getty image or yeah.
Speaker 2:And they say, oh, this isn't right, is this spam? And they always ask and I so often people we don't don't know that aren't part of my world, because they've not heard me say you can't do that, um, and they say, yeah, you, you use that without permission. You've got to pay the rights and I've had people have big disputes with it and often you can try and haggle the price a bit, but you, if you've used it in the promotion of your business, then why do you think that you should use it for free? I think it's some of like. I think people probably go, oh gosh, it really is one of those obvious things, but you don't know. It's only obvious when someone says it to you, and I think that's why it's really hard.
Speaker 2:The legal side of running a business is so vast and there's so much.
Speaker 2:And I think that if you do feel overwhelmed, that's so normal, because people just say to me Lucy, how on earth would I be able to know all of these things? But it's just the same way that I feel about tech. I think tech developments or even accounting things like I do keep up on top of that for a lot because people ask me them, but, like you don't have to be the specialist and everything you are, you're the specialist in what you do, and I think the successful business owners I see are the people that find the right people to streamline them to success, to say this is the person I'm going to follow in this, this is the legal person I'm going to follow, this is the accountant I'm going to follow, and they listen to the information that they share and they apply that and they're, like I feel, protected and covered because I know that the person that's in my network now is sharing the important things that I need to know okay, there's, we're talking with so much gold in here.
Speaker 1:There's a couple of other things I really want to cover off, if that's okay. One is if you find yourself being copied by other people, because it's something that I hear a lot, you know if you maybe have. I'm not just talking about posts here, but I'm talking about a program or an event. I had an event of mine copied literally from start to end years ago by somebody. Where do you stand there and what can you do in that situation? Well, how do you get yourself up front?
Speaker 2:yeah, and the protection is all about establishing what is your ip, what is the thing that's unique, what is the thing that can be copied? Like, as you say, there's a difference between the social media posts and everybody talking about the same topic and actually, blatantly, a whole event, the whole concept, the idea being copied. And you can't stop somebody from doing a similar type of event to you. That isn't trademarkable, unless there's like a certain way that you do something and you have protected it in advance. But that's really hard to do so and I couldn't even give an example of a way you could do something that's totally neat to you.
Speaker 2:Um, so I think often it is about working out what, understanding what can be copied and what can't, and then not going down the rabbit warren of thinking they've copied me in the energy that it takes. It's about being the leader and being really confident in your space and what's unique about you and what can be protected and ensuring people don't copy that. And I think if you do find people that are ripping off your programs and copying them and literally word for word, the program's the same, every step's the same, every part of it is the same you have to feel confident enough to send a cease and desist. So it's about collecting up all the evidence first and being really clear that you are correct, that you are the person that did it first and that there are a number of instances of imitation, and then sending a cease and desist. But it can be lengthy, it can be costly. It's very rare that somebody would then pay out and, to be honest, it's often a fast track to burn down business relationships rather than just saying that person's copied me, I didn't want them to do that, I'm not happy about that. But rather than spend the time and energy of blowing the relationship up, I'm just going to step away from it and sort of sever the relationship rather than starting legal proceedings. And I'm not saying don't.
Speaker 2:Obviously everything is different, different circumstances, but that's one thing I see business owners spend a lot of time and energy on and interestingly it happened to me just recently, which was very eye openingopening, because I obviously um worked in corporate before and it didn't really happen in terms of it was never my business, but it happening to my business gave me a really different perspective of how all-encompassing it is. Do you know like how much like anger I felt and I was like I was like the audacity of that person for copying that. I couldn't believe it. I was so cross about it. But then I realized I need to take my own advice and think what is important to me and my business goals right now. Because if I go down this route of sort of fighting them on something which is not theirs anyway and I don't think they'll even continue with it it didn't matter so much that I needed to sort of start this legal battle with it, and I think it's just going to depend, isn't it, if someone's using your name. That's very different to just small limitations.
Speaker 1:And I think the thing is, the bigger you get and the more people know you and follow you, it's going to happen more and whereas it would have used to and that time years ago we are going back a long while now that really, really upset me. Me because it was like literally everything. Even the same people I had involved. This person reached out to the same people and had them. It was like incredible and it really hurt. But now I just look at it and I think it's okay. You know I'm moving on. I'm always like you're thinking of the next thing. So and I know they say you have to take it as flattery and it is hard, but you have to reframe it somehow because otherwise I think we both covered here it will eat you up and you'll just waste all your energy worrying about other people and what they're doing, rather than focusing on your own business and taking that forward in the right way.
Speaker 2:We have to remember that ultimately, there's no possession in a client Like you can't, you don't own them and also people do work with multiple different people. Just because somebody's working with a competitor doesn't mean they won't work with you or continue to work with you. I think it's often hard if it's things like somebody's defaulted on the payment with you and then they see you sign up with a competitor. They see that they've signed up with a competitor. That's not great for a client situation and I think that is different when you're then like you do need to pay it because you clearly do have the money, because you've just seen posted that you invest in someone else. But I think it's when, like you think about it, you wear clothes from different shops, you eat at different restaurants. It's not the fact you'll have your favorites, but you can get support from different people and different businesses.
Speaker 1:I mean, you've segued nicely into the one thing I did want to talk about today, which was people defaulting on payments, because I know whenever you do a post about this and I always jump on it and like support you with it and actually fingers crossed, touch wood and everything. It's not happened to me and I'm not. I'm just so lucky. But yeah, but it does happen, doesn't it? And that is why you've got to have those the legalities in place. You've got to have that. If you haven't got that, how protected are you? You're not, are you? If somebody defaults and you didn't have any terms and conditions, it's going to be really hard for you to get that money that you're owed so, yeah, definitely, and I think I just said like to you.
Speaker 2:That's brilliant, like well done. But there's a reason. You don't have people defaulting and, as you just said, it's how you've set it all up. So if you are somebody listening thinking this is happening to me a lot, that's. There's just some problems in the position of what you're doing and sometimes it is even the fact you've your messaging isn't right in the actual sale and you're selling something that people didn't realize what they were going to get. And there's a problem at that end. And it's not necessarily a legal point, it's just actually people get into the program and then they don't want to do it because you're not getting them the results or it's not what you said it was going to be. But yeah, ultimately it's about having really clear terms that explain that a payment plan is not a subscription, it's not an option to pay monthly, it's a commitment to paying the full fee of whatever it is, and that's spread over a number of months to make it more accessible and you cannot add anything on to that, can you?
Speaker 1:am I right when I say that? Still because I'm sure I learned that from you, lucy where people go and add a load more on if you're paying in installments?
Speaker 2:And I think you're not allowed to do that.
Speaker 1:You don't want to cover your kind of PayPal fees or something like that, but you're not allowed to just inflate it just because you're allowing people a payment plan.
Speaker 2:No, and that's right. So what the law says is that you cannot make the payment a penalty fee. So if you're going to add something else on, it can't be a penalty. So you're exactly right. You've got that completely right that you cannot. You can add that little bit on. That's like a bit of an administrative fee, sort of a processing fee. People are like, well, what is that? And sometimes people say to me oh yeah, you can add 20%. 20%, I think would be a penalty fee.
Speaker 2:A penalty fee, again, the legislation doesn't say 20 is and 19 isn't. It looks at it in the round as to what you're offering. But then again, this is why I love people understanding this, because it can really empower the way you do business. Because if you're like, well, I need that incentive, I want people to pay in full. That's important to me. I actually think people now want people on payment plans because it spreads the cost and they've got a monthly recurring revenue. But each to their own as to how you set it up.
Speaker 2:But in terms of, if you want people to pay in full, then give them bonuses, give them more, give them additional things, give them it doesn't have to be more of you, it can be passive products, it can be a course, it can be extended access, it can be something at the end of the program, but it's going to be given that you don't have to have even created it now. But give, make it worthwhile to people. If you're like, yeah, I want people to jump in and pay in full and we test loads of different things on that and we've given away really big things to people and and on pay and falls, because that makes such a difference to those numbers to get people to pay in full. When you give them something that they really do want and it doesn't have to just be oh well, we'll just make it really expensive to pay by installment if and it's obviously as I'd say it's not allowed anyway.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think it was a like a 2020 thing. I feel like it was a thing years ago. I think people have wised up to it now because I think the message has got out there, but there are still some people who still do it quite a bit.
Speaker 2:I think the big risk with that kind of thing is that the law is different in the UK versus the US, where I think most people that they're sort of the big hubs. If you're based in the UK or if you're in the US, you have to be really careful about as to who you're listening. I think the law has actually changed a lot in America recently and they've got a lot stricter than the UK in part. So and I think that it's really important that you understand both, because one of the key things there is your clients will see people from the different places doing different things and it's illegal. For example, it's illegal in america to put re at the start of an email. You know, in your marketing email, if you put re as to suggest that it's somebody replying, that is illegal in the us. It's not technically illegal yet in the uk, but it's coming.
Speaker 2:But but if you're doing that and people don't know, people will just see that sometimes a lawyer will say it's illegal. They're not going to know if it's UK or US. So you have to have this awareness. So what I'm saying about trademarks you have to understand the global impact. If you're trading online, if you have a business where you operate online. It's not good enough to just say, oh, I'm based in the UK, so I understand UK law. Yes, you can say your terms are covered by UK law, but you have to have a wider understanding as well of what's going on in the marketplace and what would impact you and your clients.
Speaker 1:It's so good, lucy. Thank you so much for covering all of this. Honestly, it's brilliant. Now here's the final thing I want to just touch on today and I know it's something that you are talking about a lot in your business at the moment and that is AI. So where do people need, what do people need to be thinking about, and how can you help them regarding, I mean, ai is such a big subject and how people are using it, whether they're scared to use it, whether they're literally copying and pasting things from it what have you? It's such a huge subject. What? What do we all need to be thinking about most of all, and how can you support people with this?
Speaker 2:Thank you for asking this because not many people are talking about it. So it's great that you're asking this question right now, because everybody is using it, whether they want to admit it or not, but the conversation definitely needs to be happening, so thank you. Um, essentially it's about disclosures. It's about being clear and saying what you use it for, and I think that's the part where people go. I don't want people to know. I don't want them to know I'm using a shortcut and sometimes you don't need to know. So if you are utilizing ai for yourself and you're just using it to organize your own personal calendar, your own personal things, it's that you don't need to make a disclosure. If you're using it to do your own social media, you wouldn't need to necessarily make a disclosure for your content ideas.
Speaker 2:Where you do need to be clear at the moment and this is where it's going to get tricky, because the law is changing and it's changing quite quickly.
Speaker 2:It's changing in august and it's changing twice, probably next year at least um is that you have to have disclosures where something doesn't look real. So if you're, if you've created an image and you've superimposed yourself into a scenario, you have to put a disclaimer and probably people are thinking well, it's so obvious that that is not real, but you have to put something on, so something that and especially, even more so, if it looks real and you've created it using AI, you have to make it and put a disclaimer on. But those kind of things are probably more obvious, I think, when it comes to the difficult parts, and people sometimes think well, I'm not using AI, so if I don't, I'm not using it, so I don't need to be aware, it's not something I even need to think about. That's not correct, because you people that you will be touching or working with will be using it. So say, for example, a client comes to a call with you and they want to use their AI note taker Are you going to allow them to do that?
Speaker 1:That's a really good point. You just shifted that in my head because I don't really like that If somebody's not coming. I don't personally. For me that just feels a bit weird.
Speaker 2:Somebody's AI note taker coming in to my place weird, somebody's ai note taker coming in to my place. But and then if they're so, if they're in and it's just a what, it's one-to-one, so they're just saying I need the notes for me, can I have them? You might think, well, it's their session, that's fine, but what if it's a group session? And we just talked, this ties in perfectly with this conversation we've been having about people having recordings of conversations and it being used later. Everybody, everybody then in that, say, zoom room that's bought their iNote take, is going to have a copy of the transcript. Now, the people in there don't have any sort of protection with each other. They only have protection with you being the host of that session, because you are obligated to protect their data and to protect what is said. And it's about thinking, actually, my, my GDPR, like my data privacy statements, might need updating to reflect how I'm capturing. Like am I capturing all of these note takers? And then what am I doing with all of these extra resources I've got? So what?
Speaker 2:A lot of people then just said to me was okay, well, I'm not doing it like if we're having a group session. My new policy so you're going to need a policy on this is you can't bring your note taker in, to which I said what about accessibility legislation? You are obligated to make a reasonable adjustment to allow people to take notes if they need to, because they may have a disability. So if someone says to you well, I've been diagnosed with a condition and I find it hard to concentrate and I can't take notes, I need my AI note taker to come in, then what are you doing? You know, and you need to have thought about this in advance, because you don't want to be dealing with it at the start of the session, and so your policy might be therefore okay, I can't handle everyone's note takers and I'm not necessarily obligated to, but a reasonable adjustment would be that I have a note taker running as the host of the session and it takes the note and it records it and then I give it. Who?
Speaker 1:I send that to afterwards.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's about ensuring as well. You've got a requirement to ensure that that's accurate, so you're putting another step on the process of making sure that what's recorded is an accurate recording of what was said, which is also tricky wow, that's a lot though, isn't it?
Speaker 1:I mean, because these note takers I see them coming in and can you I haven't, I haven't done this yet but can you actually like push somebody out? You know you can like decline, yeah, decline a note taker. Yeah, you could say sorry, no, no, take I. I don't do not allow note takers into my zoom sessions.
Speaker 2:You don't want to be doing that in the zoom session you don't want to be having like. This is where it comes in, with having terms and conditions that are gold standard. That you've thought about these things, that you've got your policy in place, your ai policies. This is how I use it in my business. This is how I'm clear, this is how I'm going to guide you, because nobody wants five minutes at the start of the session, either deleting AI note takers or even just saying having an issue where someone says but I need it and I I don't want to wait for you to transcribe the note, but then what are you going to do?
Speaker 1:I think there's very few people. I mean, maybe I'm wrong saying that I know there's going to be, there's going to be cases, but in all the time I've been doing these, I haven't had anybody who's come on before we even had ai and said I you know I can't take notes, so I can't do this. Because I mean, I suppose if you're going to send a recording of it out afterwards to those people who signed up for it but I think I think what you're saying here correct me if I'm wrong, because this is like brilliant is you've got to make it clear beforehand exactly what you're doing. If you're recording it and you're going to let people have it, let them know. If you're not, let them know. If you're not going to allow note takers in, make it clear beforehand, but let people know that they will get notes or a pricey of what happened on the call afterwards. So would that make sense? Is that what we're in essence?
Speaker 2:But we're going to see exactly that, like I'm never going to tell people how to run their business, I'm just going to say these are the pitfalls I'm seeing. Like because when I work with lots of coaches and lots of people in this space and, like some of them are saying, but what if you're then going into breakout rooms? What would you do with your ai note taker? Like, how would you have them in breakout rooms? It's just thinking about all of the scenarios so that you can make your clients feel like they're receiving the service that they want to get.
Speaker 2:So, as you say, it's about saying don't worry, you're going to get a summary of the notes or you're going to get, I'll give you the action points of what you need to do afterwards, so that people think, okay, because it is really great if you've been in those meetings where it then tells you afterwards I've done them before and I'm like, okay, that's, it is really helpful to have the list of notes of actions you need to take after a meeting and it's all done. But also, if people don't want to do that, they just need to be. You don't have to, you don't have to use AI, you don't have to let it in, but you just have to be really clear as to whether you're going to be doing that and how you'll handle clients, and you don't want that dispute at the start of a group session. It would feel super awkward. So it's just about thinking about these things in advance.
Speaker 1:And I think it's worthwhile from my point of view to say you don't have to feel obliged to record everything either, especially if you're offering something for free. I kind of liken it to if you invite somebody to an event they've got to turn up to the event to see it happen. They can't say, well, I couldn't, couldn't turn up, was there a recording of it? You just wouldn't dream of it really, would you? But we're now in that world where people kind of are expecting that. But you don't have to feel pushed into doing that. If you don't want to, you are well within your rights to say you need to be live with me on the call to experience this. It will not be recorded, there will not be a playback, and that's fine. You need to think of the marketing opportunities there are by obviously having a playback for people. But you have a choice. You don't have to do everything just because you think you ought to. It is your ip as you, and that's why there were some things where I won't say the slides are available afterwards, because that's like just saying somebody you didn't really have to listen. I'm just going to give you all my slide deck afterwards, which is all my work all my methods on it, and who knows what somebody is going to do with that.
Speaker 1:Maybe that is a little bit cynical of me, but that my work. So why? And I know a lot of people feel like that. They might not say it, but you know, that's where we have to start thinking and there's a nuance in all of this and that's why you need somebody like Lucy and her team in your world, and Lucy has loads of resources, loads of downloads, loads of ways you can work with her and her team more closely. So, lucy, just let people know now, how can they find you? How can they get in your world if they are ready to tighten up their brand protection and their businesses?
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you for asking. The best place to find me is on social media. I'm mostly on Instagram and I'm there at Lucy underscore legal and I make sure that Jeannie's got the link and share and come to the website. It's lucylegalcouk and hopefully you'll find your way around and I'll make sure we've got a checklist, which is called the ultimate legal checklist, which we often say to people grab that. It's a really great way to get started to check off whether you've got things covered, and it's going to give you some ideas, hopefully that you've not thought of before, but I think what Janine was just saying there is so, so valuable that essentially what I've just said today, what you've just listened to, is about feeling empowered, like hopefully help you to feel empowered to run your business in a way that feels good to you, and having that knowledge and information will help you to make the choices, and it's that's what it's. It's you running the business in a way that feels good for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and running a professional business. I feel I need to say that there, running a professional business that you're proud of, not that you're like thinking and running around wondering whether you've done the right thing or what's gonna come up and what's gonna happen when you have Lucy behind you and she's got so many resources I, when you have Lucy behind you and she's got so many resources, I mean I've downloaded. There's one for events that you can use. There's one for retreats that you can use. There's one, obviously, that covers you and your programs. There's the different niches. They're there. There's, like your copycat one for sending people a cease and desist. So, if you think about it, lucy can do that. She can look after your trademarking for you as well and take you through that, do it for you or take you um, you know, show you how to do it yourself. So, yeah, do go and dig in um to everything that she does. So, lucy, I want to say thank you so much for being my guest. I know it's taken us a while to get together to do this. I'm so grateful to have this time with you. I'm grateful to have you in my world. So thank you you so much and thank you to everybody for listening and I will see you again in the next episode. Bye, bye for now.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, what a session that was. Thank you so much, lucy, for joining us for this session. So we are reminded today how important terms and conditions are in our business and that, although it might seem scary, it isn't and it actually makes us feel more protected and makes our clients feel more protected as well. We've talked about how you can embrace AI in your business, but how you should also, certainly looking forward, be thinking about how you are using it and protecting yourself and protecting your clients as well. We've looked at trademarking and copyrights, and I think that's really useful to really understand as well exactly how you can trademark your own words, your own business and, and maybe when you shouldn't, maybe when you shouldn't too, and we've also dug in and looked at as well those terms that you need to cover off to make sure that people don't default on any payments with you as well.
Speaker 1:I I found this session really, really interesting, and I could have spoken to Lucy for so much longer, and Lucy even said to me after we finished recording that we've covered questions in here that she hasn't been asked in many other podcasts too, which is really, really brilliant. I love to ask those questions. Other people don't. I love to uncover things for you, and that is the positioning that I love. Now, if this episode has hit something real for you, like you maybe have been showing up halfway because of fear, or you're not standing out as you want to, then you can DM me the word visible and I'll show you what happens when your presence, message and brand actually match, because that's what I do I help connect the dots from where you are now to where you want to be and help you be seen as the leader that you are in your business. So thank you for joining me today and I will see you again in the next episode.