Sober Journeys

Born and raised in Scotland, Seana Smith lived an enviable life. An Oxford graduate, a successful career with the BBC, a bestselling author & happily married - but she had a secret that was was slowly taking over her world & destroying her health. 

Her latest book 'Going Under', is a memoir of family secrets, addiction and escape.

Hear her story.

Transcript

00:00

If you're old enough to remember when phones had cords and the only thing that went viral was a cold, then you're in the right place. Welcome to the Big Six-O with Kaylee Harris and Guy Rawlison. Because who better to discuss life's second act than two people who still think mature is a type of cheese?

00:35

And welcome to the Big Sixo podcast. I'm Kayleigh Harris and my friend, Guy Rolison from primary school is with me. G'day, Guy. Always a pleasure. You know that, Kayleigh. Each week we try and talk about things we remember when growing up and we'd like to interview people about their life growing up as well. And recently I read a book that I thought was amazing. It's a really good yarn. Now the book is called Going Under and the author is Shauna Smith.

01:00

and she lives in Orange in central New South Wales, but she's born in Scotland and she's just got an incredible story and I thought it was really worth sharing. Shawna, welcome. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's delightful to be here and meet you. Great to have you with us as well. Now, you are from Scotland, you're born in Scotland, you've still got a lot of family over there, mindless of my understanding, and you moved out to Australia and you've been living here for quite some time. Yeah, yeah, a long time, since the 80s, although off and on at the beginning.

01:28

The last 25 years have been here all the time. Yeah, and then you did a bit of a tree change and moved out to Orange with your family. Tell us about your family, you've got twins? So I've got twins who I had rather late in the day, I had them in my 40s. And I've got two big boys as we call them, young men now who are 27 and 25.

01:46

So when they had left home and the twins were going to high school, and my husband who's also Scottish, he wanted to stop working because he'd worked really hard in the oil and gas business and he'd worked in the Middle East a lot. And we just thought, well, it's a bit expensive in Sydney, so we'll move out to the bush. And not the bush, I mean, Orange isn't really the bush, but it's a delightful spot out there. Yeah. And then, so you moved the family out there, this is going back how many years? So six years ago.

02:12

Okay and you were just about to move out there and then you got word that your mum back in Scotland wasn't well. Wasn't well. Yeah and then you so you flew back to be with the family. Is this where the idea for the book Going Under came from? Well I think it was the right place to start because the book tells the story of the year which started with my mum dying and then us being in orange and the big boys not living with us anymore and the twins going to high school.

02:39

and really how I then fell apart really. I think that that this sort of, I mean I've had ups and downs with mental health in the past, but this was worse. And I think it was because my mum died and I really loved my mum. And I had always felt so sad and upset about not living close to her. But because of the family situation in Scotland, I just didn't feel that I would be able to survive if I stayed there for all the reasons we're talking about. And she had dementia and I had been coming and going

03:08

She'd come and gone twice a year for about three years. But she was quite stable and the last time I'd seen her she'd been quite stable. And then suddenly she was having little strokes and she went downhill. And I was so lucky because on New Year's Day I flew over to Scotland at the start of that year to sit and hold her hand as she was dying. So she was unconscious when I got there. She'd had a big stroke. But she stayed alive for quite a few days and me and my two sisters sat with her. And...

03:37

talked to her and nothing was left unsaid, you know, but I was devastated. Just if we can explore going under, it's memoir, it goes into personal struggles, family secrets, all those sort of things. Take us back to your childhood. Was it a happy childhood? Well, siblings? Tell us a bit about that. Yeah, the thing is, and what I wanted to explore was that it was a very mixed childhood. So there were some terrible things that happened.

04:04

But there were lots of good things too and I'm not alone in this at all, I don't think. And I think you have to come to terms with it all as you get older and especially as you're becoming an elder or being over 60. I think you owe it to yourself to try and get your head around the whole story. So my parents had us very young. My mum had four children by the time she was 28. She'd married dad when she was 21 and their families had not.

04:30

been happy, her mum's family was not happy about her marrying dad. And he had worked very hard, but he was a terrible alcoholic. Like you just can't get round it. He was aggressive. He was violent at times, but he was also very charismatic and very adventurous, as people often are. So you just didn't know who was going to come through the door. You didn't know if it would be fun or you didn't know whether it would be really quite scary. You know, and in our house.

04:58

You know, knives were out and sometimes we had to leave. When we were little, sometimes Mum would take us away or sometimes she would go away and would take her dinner down to her and play to the neighbours. But Mum stayed with Dad, but he was aggressive, especially when he drank whisky. He was terrible. But our summer holidays were marvelous because Dad built a boat and we used to go sailing around the west coast of Scotland and the Hebridean Islands, you know, all around Mull and Skye.

05:27

and Benbecula and Barra, they are the most beautiful places, even in the rain, but it's sunny too. And we would be sailing this boat up and down. We always had a good time on our holidays, but then the next thing you'd know he'd just be appalling. So it was very confusing. I really got out as soon as I could, I left as soon as I could, but I kept going back. You know, I was coming and going and coming and going. And when I left university, I came to Australia.

05:56

then I still came and went and came and went. I actually met my husband in Scotland, but I think one of the things that really appealed to me about him apart from the fact that he was tall and handsome was that he was getting a visa to go to Australia and I had a visa to go to Australia. So I really think that when I met him, I was still thinking of, I've got to get out of this country because the family were still really dysfunctional there. And so we came to Australia with our oldest son and we'd been...

06:24

permanently here since 1998. Do you think your family was dysfunctional because of alcohol? Yeah, 100% yes. Why was dad drinking? I really don't know that, what might have happened to him. But I think that it's very genetic, you know, and I think in his side of the family, nobody had ever been able to afford to drink as much as they wanted to. And he made a lot of money and he could afford to drink as much as they wanted to. And he was the boss, so nobody could fire him.

06:54

Yeah and do you think you talk about in the book about the the alcohol cupboard in your house being the center of the house. Yes it was the center of the house. And even as a child you knew how to pour your dad a drink. That's right and it was whisky generally when he was young and you put water in it but you never put ice and it wasn't very cold water and we you know we would carry the big crystal jug through and we would serve the drinks and he'd sit in his chair and say get me a drink and we would get my drink and we loved the attention you know we just.

07:23

loved him giving us attention. And my mum used to drink Cinzano Bianco, but she was never a huge drinker at all, which was good for us, lucky for us kids, I think. Growing up, and this would extend to kids growing up with parents who drink, were you intuitive to the mood changes, particularly with your father? Yeah, absolutely. When the door closed, we could...

07:48

quickly we would all just tense to see what was going to happen. And sometimes he would be full of joy, sometimes he'd be drunk and very jolly. You know, and often there were parties in the house or people round for a drink. It was really common for the neighbours to come in for a drink or him us to go to the neighbours for a drink. It was never all terrible, you know, it was often just later. Or if he'd been out to the pub and came in blind drunk or...

08:15

You know, he had all these different stages and we knew what they were. And I think that for anybody who's listening, who's been in that situation, they'll recognize that you become very sensitive both to what everybody's drinking and what the mood is in the room. And you adjust your behavior to try and keep the peace at all times. And I certainly turned into a massive people pleaser, you know, because I needed, I think when I look back, I think the house was never a really safe environment.

08:42

So everywhere else had to be safe, which meant that I had to try to always keep everybody happy, you know, which is absolutely exhausting. Was your dad, did your dad behave differently on different types of alcohol or did he just... Well, no, we think he did because he did stop drinking whiskey at some point when I was a teenager and he used to drink pink gin, which, you know, not many men in Scotland drink pink gin, but he was very bloody minded. Although towards the end of his life, he drank whiskey again.

09:11

And he had dementia by the time, alcohol-induced dementia, which was never properly diagnosed, but it's definitely what he had it. By the time he was 65, he couldn't walk properly, you know, and the last five to six years of his life were pretty quiet. And I do say that he was improved with dementia because he was no trouble, but he just sat in a chair and stayed with him and she would make him shower and put clean clothes on him.

09:41

Australia is known for its drinking culture. Is Scotland the same? It's worse. And honestly, it's worse. I really think that. And I think that's because of the cold and the weather. I think it is worth it. I've had the experience of bringing up four children here. It's very hard for them to drink before they're 18. Not impossible. But in Scotland, my friends' kids were drinking in pubs from quite a young age. It's so...

10:09

And I think it's more in grains. So to not drink is more of a unusual thing there. I mean, statistics say that a lot of people are teetotal in Scotland, because I think that there's a lot of people who've stopped drinking there because they had to, and maybe people who've never drunk at all because their families have. So I actually think it's worse. And I think the statistics would show that, you know, people have done studies about it. The health is worse there and so on. The heart problems are worse.

10:39

there too, but it's a wonderful country as is Australia. But both countries have got a massive problem with alcohol. Did your upbringing, did that influence you in later life in any way, shape or form? Well, I think it influenced me absolutely. You know, I was always on the move. I worked in television. So for 10 years, you always have short contracts in television. Suited me fine because I never wanted to stay anywhere for too long. And I went from Australia back to the UK, back to Australia, back to the UK.

11:08

I never wanted to get married. You know, I always used to say, no, no, no, no. And I was horrible to boyfriends because I wanted the attention, but I didn't want a proper relationship. And I really only sorted myself out emotionally when I was 30, because I had a really good counselor. And I remember saying to her, I've got to change this. Because I realized at that age that I would like to have a family and I would like to have children. But the way I'd...

11:32

been going about my life was not going to get me there or things were not going to work out fine. So I had a very significant year of therapy in Glasgow, which helped me a lot there. It also helped distance me from my parents a bit and see that they were just short Scottish people. They weren't these big figures that were huge in my mind. So, yeah, I think it's had a lot of influence.

11:59

I think I've been quite sensitive to other people's emotions, which is good, but then being a people pleaser is extremely draining. And I think women are pretty bad at that anyway, you know, and it's detrimental to your life. This episode of The Big Six O brought to you by The PR Guy. Story to tell. Brand to build. If your business has big ideas but a small budget, we've got you covered. The PR Guy. Always true to our word.

12:27

Visit theprguide.com.au for more details. Let's talk about your drinking history. Now, do you, when did you start drinking and did you, was your father a big influence on that? Well, yeah, I think that I had never seen people have a laugh without alcohol or cry. It was just there all the time, loads of it. And I started drinking probably when I was about 15, you know, 16, even in the pub.

12:57

we were drinking, but not a huge amount because I had run away and got myself a scholarship to boarding school and I always think that kept me on the straight and narrow a bit until I was 18 when I left school. I immediately went to work in a pub then and then I went to Italy and after that for all of my twenties I was binge drinking as were many people in Australia and in Scotland so I was a good time girl, I saw myself as a party person

13:25

I wanted to be that really fun person that everybody liked. Now I don't. I don't mind if people don't like me now, but all that time I was. I had that year, that year of therapy in Glasgow, and she suggested I stop drinking. And when I met my husband, I had stopped drinking for quite a few months. And I vividly remember going to a wedding on a Friday and a wedding on a Saturday and not drinking. And actually nobody cared and I had a great time. And I remember thinking, well, that's amazing.

13:55

And when I had my children I wasn't drinking very much because they were very wild children and I just wised up to the fact that it wasn't worth having a hangover with a toddler. But what happened for me was once the youngest children got to five or six and life got a bit easier, I started drinking more again. So I know some people drink when their kids are little.

14:17

I think I did try to but I just couldn't do it. But once they were in school life got much easier. My husband always got up early so when I could lie in a bit I definitely started drinking more at home. And my husband went off to work in the Middle East for a month at a time and I was drinking wine at home but always trying not to drink too much. So I'd go through these phases where I'd think okay I'm not drinking during the week, not drinking during the week and then I would jinx.

14:44

during the week and then I'd give myself a hard time. So I think I always had a battle in my brain about it because I loved the numbing effects of alcohol and I wanted to opt out of my life a lot, really, but I didn't like the hangovers and I didn't want to be like my dad. So I think I always was fighting myself, which is totally exhausting, but the year that I write about in the book was worse, I think because mum had died and I was so distraught and we'd moved and everything had changed. And then,

15:13

So I've described a lot of waking up in the morning and thinking, can I have a drink today? What drink? What day is it? And going, oh, it's Monday. I can't drink till Friday. And just the torture that I put myself through with that. And then the cravings. So I might have a few good weeks and then the cravings would start and I'd get to four o'clock and I'd be thinking. But I never didn't often keep wine in the house because then I would have just drunk it. Occasionally.

15:41

Paul and I would go to a vineyard, not very often, and if I ever bought a case of wine then I would just drink it a bottle a night until it was gone. I know some people that I've talked to would be drinking two bottles of wine a night or three bottles of wine a night, and that wasn't me, but one bottle of wine a night, but after a few days of that I'd get quite depressed as well. And I'd think I wish I could just have one, wish I could just have one. And my friends can just have, loads of people I know can just have one, they might have two.

16:09

but I also could spot the people that were going to have the whole bottle when they were out and were drinking really fast. So I do see myself as quite a f... I don't talk about that I was an alcoholic, but my sisters would say that I was an alcoholic. But I would say I had a really big drink problem because my drinking was causing me loads of problems. One of the biggest problems was stopping myself drinking as much as I wanted to. And I knew that...

16:36

As you get older, people tend to drink more and if they have got a problem, they tend to drink more. And I was really getting quite upset about it and didn't think I could stop. That was the thing. I just didn't think I could not see a life without alcohol. I couldn't imagine it. You mentioned TV. Going from TV to writing, how did you transition from a successful TV career to becoming an author and a blogger? How did that unfold?

17:04

Well it was really because I had all these children and I wasn't particularly organised and then my oldest son was diagnosed with autism when he was three and my husband kept disappearing off for a couple of months at a time to New Guinea and I just thought there's no way I can get organised and go to work. I will never get this child to daycare. So I gave up all hope of ever working.

17:25

but I knew that there was a great little book in Edinburgh called Frunder Fives and I pitched that when Christian was a baby and I was pregnant with the second one. I pitched it to Pan Macmillan and they published it. So I started then a career of writing books so I got to know the publisher whom I still work with and then I turned that into a blog. And I really love websites. In lots of ways they're better than books or for factual things they're better than books because you can update them all the time if you put the effort in.

17:55

And I loved being able to sit there and just write something and it would be up online quite quickly. And so I didn't have to spend... Because I had all these different children going in different directions and my son was quite unpredictable. So I didn't know if I might have to go into school or take him home. So it was something that I could do that I could fit in around the kids and I could drop it if I had to. You know, just being brutally frank, my husband was earning enough to support the family. So I was in a very fortunate position.

18:25

because I could work, but I wasn't under massive pressure. So that was lucky for me, I think, because I don't think I could have coped with trying to have children and be an employee of anybody else. Yeah, I was very fortunate. One of the things you talk about in the book that resonated with me is about those, and you touched on it before, those inner voices in you that we want you to drink. Yeah.

18:50

And you don't necessarily want to, and it's not the alcohol so much as the feeling that as you said, the feeling it gives you, and particularly, I think, I think this is true for a lot of women. Yeah. Certainly for a lot of people in my circle, when we had, when our children were younger in that first sort of 10 years, it was what mothers did to cope. Cool. And you, you, you almost said to yourself, God, I deserve this because you know, I've just worked so hard and I've got the, I'm raising these kids. And then.

19:19

when you finally get the kids to bed or you fall over the line with a glass of wine. That's right. Tell us a bit about that. Yeah, the thing about wine is, which was my glass of choice, if I hadn't eaten my dinner, then one glass would really relax me, or numb me out. And I would often have a glass of wine when I was cooking dinner, sausages again, or another spaghetti bolognese or whatever it was. And I felt I deserved it was a treat. And the fact of the matter is, when you've got all these little kids around you doing homework,

19:48

You can't go and meditate for half an hour, you can't take yourself, even if you've got a pool you can't just go and... Whereas you can multitask, so you can have your glass of wine, it's numbing you out, I mean it's pretty practical. But the problem with it is, it is a depressant and it also really affects your sleep, I know now. So that even, say I had two glasses of wine, maybe four units of alcohol, you're never going to sleep. Nobody in the world will have a good night's sleep, even with that small amount of alcohol.

20:17

So it's actually making you more depressed and making you not cope. But it's such a quick fix, that's the thing. And, you know, it's difficult, like a walk would do it. Sometimes I did, when the kids were little, I would put them in the pram and I'd go for a walk and it would feel good. And sometimes I'd go and jump in the pool with them and it did feel good. But there was always that, this, you know, I deserve it, I deserve it. And it was hard.

20:43

to get over that. And when I did stop drinking, I think one of the reasons that I accidentally stopped forever, not meaning to, was that I started drinking all these other drinks that are like the fever tree. I'm drinking a pink grapefruit soda, so they're pretty cans, nice drinks. And I started drinking those instead and I thought, this is my treat, this is my treat. And that really helped me sort of feel that I was, I deserve a treat every day. Sometimes it would be chocolate, peanut butter, ice cream, all sorts of things, but I'm...

21:13

I just think that it's a pretty intense period of your life, isn't it, when you're cooking and working and they're hanging off you. And then I didn't mean to have twins, you know, I was trying for a third child and they ended up with two. That sort of prolonged the whole situation. Yeah, in 2013 when the twins were about six and seven, six turning seven, I stopped drinking for a year because I knew I'd been drinking far too much and I'd been mean to my husband.

21:42

So I stopped for a whole year and I should never have started again because I got over the hump, you know, I was doing okay, I had other ways to calm myself down. But at the back of my mind I thought, if I just do this for a year then everything will be different and I'll be able to drink like my friends, you know, many friends who wouldn't ever feel that the half bottle of wine in the fridge was calling their name and they had to go and just drink the whole lot of it. So the loads of people, most people...

22:10

don't have a problem with alcohol, but that was not my story. I did start drinking again and then it wasn't long before I was craving it in the afternoons and stopping myself. I talk about white-knuckling it, you know, so I'd stop myself from drinking. I wouldn't go to the shops, but it was very stressful. What a mess. I mean, life, for me, I stopped five years ago, which is the end that I write about in the book, and it's been the best thing I've ever done. And lots of people have got this story, you know, and it's very...

22:40

personalism, but I've now met loads of women and men, but who've decided to stop drinking and just find that life is better without it. Which if you don't have any problem with alcohol, you'd never really understand. But if you do, and you do stop, then you know what you're talking about. Everything's simpler for me now. So whether it's structured publishing or blogging.

23:05

through sober journeys. What's been the most rewarding aspect of say, connecting with readers online? Yeah, I think through social media as well as through websites is the directness of it. You do have that with books a bit. I mean, I've had lovely feedback about this book because it's so personal and people can relate to it. Whether it's, you know, being brought up in an alcoholic home or it's the problems of alcohol themselves, that's very immediate. But I think

23:33

Writing the book was much harder and it took me three years. I had to learn lots of techniques. It was much harder than writing very factual things. But with all of that, it's the immediacy of chatting to and forth with people. It's been really rewarding. You know, you're always trying to touch somebody. When I was doing, say, I had a website called Hello Sydney Kids, which I've...

23:57

changed, it's sold and it's changed a lot. But I was helping people by saying where you could get a coffee near this beach or what the playground was like. And that was like being at the school gate and chatting to people and saying, oh, there's a great place here, there's a great place there. Whereas writing the memoir was connecting with people on a much deeper level and trying to have a story that would be interesting. But inevitably when you read a book like that, it's quite a commitment on the reader's part.

24:24

and to stay with you, they've got to be connecting to your story. And they bring their own story to that, you know, so it's a more emotional experience, which I've loved, I've got to say. Shauna, thank you, it's been such a delight to speak to you. The book is called Going Under, it's available where all good books are sold and even the bad ones too. It spoke to me a lot of your journey with your children and the stresses of having young children, things like that, and I think that will resonate with a lot of other people as well.

24:54

Thank you so much for your time and for sharing your story with us. And thank you for me for having you and keep up the good work with the podcast because it is exactly the kind of thing that I love listening to. So thank you. The views and opinions expressed on the Big Six O are personal and reflect those of the hosts and guests. They do not represent the views or positions of any affiliated organisations or companies.

25:17

This podcast is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be construed as professional advice. Please consult with a qualified professional for guidance on any personal matters. Ah, and before we go, let's give credit where credit is due. Kayleigh Harris and I came up with all the genius content for this week's episode. Our producer, Nick Aboud, well, he keeps the lights on and makes sure we don't accidentally upload a cat video instead of a podcast. So thanks for keeping us on track, Nick.

25:48

Nick?