Lessons from Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio ft. Tia Jackson from The Alien Effect Podcast

Summary
Aaron and guest Tia Jackson delve into Guillermo del Toro's 2022 adaptation of Pinocchio. They explore the themes of grief, love, and acceptance, particularly through the character of Geppetto, who grapples with the loss of his son. The conversation also highlights the unique animation style and the emotional depth of the characters, including Sebastian J. Cricket, who serves as a moral compass. The discussion culminates in reflections on the film's rich storytelling and its exploration of individuality, unconditional love, neurodivergence and acceptance.

Guest: Tia Jackson

Podcast: The Alien Effect Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-alien-effect/id1753337509

Takeaways

• The podcast celebrates the joy of fandoms and personal obsessions.
• Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio is a dark retelling that explores deep themes.
• Geppetto's character is a complex portrayal of grief and growth.
• The animation style is a labor of love, showcasing intricate details.
• Sebastian J. Cricket serves as both a conscience and a character with depth.
• The film explores the idea of unconditional love versus conditional love.
• Pinocchio's journey reflects the struggle for acceptance and individuality.
• The film's themes resonate with neurodivergent experiences.
• The exploration of life, death, and purpose is central to the narrative.
• The film's rich storytelling allows for multiple interpretations and insights. 

Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Fandoms and Podcasts
03:57 Exploring Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio
15:51 Character Analysis: Geppetto's Grief and Growth
22:59 The Role of Sebastian J. Cricket
33:52 Themes of Love, Loss, and Acceptance
40:45 Final Thoughts and Takeaways

Soundbites

"Childhood loves will stay with you, and childhood fears definitely do." - Tia Jackson

"Uniqueness isn't a flaw to be corrected, but a truth to be embraced." - Aaron Davies

Apple Tags

Pinocchio, Guillermo del Toro, stop motion animation, fandom, neurodivergence, childhood fears, identity, grief, acceptance, The Alien Effect podcast, Tia Jackson, storytelling, film analysis, creativity, emotional journey

Contact Us:
Website: https://www.fandomportalspodcast.com/

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Letterboxd: https://letterboxd.com/fandomportals

Discord: https://discord.gg/7Q4TAmSP

Transcript

Introduction to Tia Jackson

Speaker 1 0:00

Hi everyone. On this episode of the Phantom Portals podcast, I spoke to Tia Jackson from the Alien Effect podcast. She was a really wonderful guest to have on. We had a beautiful discussion about Pinocchio from 2022 that was directed by Guillermo del Toro. In this episode, we looked at Geppetto's complex character and how he suffered through grief, but also growth. We also looked at how the film explores unconditional love versus conditional love and, lastly, we looked at how Pinocchio's journey sometimes resonates with some neurodivergent experiences as well. So make sure you go and check out Tia Jackson's podcast, the Alien Effect Podcast. The link to that will be in the show notes below, guys, and we hope you enjoy this discussion. Welcome to the Fandom Portals podcast, the show that explores how fandoms can help us learn and grow. Today, I'm joined by a very special guest. Her name is Tia Jackson and she is the producer of the Alien Effect podcast. Very special guest. Her name is Tia Jackson and she is the producer of the Alien Effect podcast. How are you going today, Tia?

Speaker 2 1:09

Yeah, good, thank you, producer. Sounds so fancy.

Speaker 1 1:12

I put it on the end of all of my emails so I sound really professional.

Speaker 2 1:16

I love it.

Speaker 1 1:17

But if you record and if you edit your own podcast, you're technically a producer.

Speaker 2 1:20

This is true. This is true.

Speaker 1 1:22

So, yeah, thank you so much for joining me. Today. We're here to talk about the movie Pinocchio, made in 2022. It was directed by Guillermo del Toro. There was also another one brought out in 2022, directed by Robert Zemeckis, which was the Disney one, which I think they did to compete. But before we get into that, tia, did you want to tell us a little bit about your podcast, the Alien Effect, how it began, why you started it, that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 1:43

Yeah, sure, so it's something I'd been meaning to start for years, but last year I finally got around to it. So it's called the Alien Effect. But my whole sort of gimmick is that it's actually nothing to do with aliens, but rather it's about that feeling you get when you love something so much. You think the feeling might burst out of your chest, like in the film Alien. So I'm all DHD, so autistic and ADHD, and it's a feeling I get quite frequently when I'm obsessed with different fandoms and different pieces of entertainment.

Speaker 2 2:10

So that was always how I'd sort of explain how excited I got about something. And so, yeah, I wanted to start a podcast to celebrate that and to share that with other people and hear what they're obsessed with as well. And the name also worked, because I often feel like a little alien in a human suit, which I know is quite common for neurodivergent people as an experience. And, yeah, I have a guest on each episode. They tell me about the things they're obsessed with and they can recommend me something as well. And yeah, it's just really fun. It's just basically geeking out about whatever people want to talk about.

Speaker 1 2:49

Yeah, I can definitely relate. As we talked about before, I'm neurodivergent as well ADHD so I relate strongly to the feeling of just getting really fixated on something in particular. That's part of the reason why I started the Fandom Portals podcast, because I had all this knowledge and nowhere to put it, and so somebody wants to listen to it, surely. So yeah, I kind of deep dive infrequently, but the topic changes all the time. So, you know, film and TV, kind of fandoms media is where it usually finds itself, and the podcasting platform that we're on here kind of lends itself perfectly to that kind of deep dive and that kind of, you know, big obsession. But yeah, I can definitely relate.

Speaker 2 3:19

Yeah, no, and I love your podcast as well. Like you said, it's a great space to be able to just geek out and share those obsessions with people. It's really fun and you tend to find your people in this community.

Speaker 1 3:33

That's it. Yeah, I've actually found the community pretty welcoming, especially on Threads. Threads is probably one of the better places to find community and get engagement and things like that. It's a little bit more genuine. I've done the Reddit thing here and there, but that's like 60, 40% toxic to non-toxic, so in the, in the, in the bad end of the ratio. So there's a lot of people on there that just want to say their opinions in a nasty way and I'm sort of leaning against away from that.

Speaker 2 3:58

But but yeah, thread seems to be going okay. It's good so far and I think it has been an adjustment for a lot of the community since twitter went up in flames, because I think that was a big platform for people to connect. So it's nice that fred's is going well so far so far, so good.

Speaker 1 4:15

So thanks for your compliment on the podcast as well. I really like yours. You recently had a guest on m from verbal diorama, so I'll put the link in the show notes to that episode for our people to go and check that out, because you guys had a really great discussion just geeking out about, you know, the, the mummy and all different kinds of stuff like that, but you also talked a little bit about podcasting as well through that. So, yeah, you have some really great guests on your show and I'm thank you. Yeah, I'm a big fan, so good to have you on lovely.

Speaker 1 4:40

All right, let's dive in. Hey. So this Pinocchio is a dark retelling of the classic tale. It's infused with themes of war, fatherhood, obedience and morality. It's stop motion, which is probably the best thing about it in my opinion. And the aesthetic is rich. It's visual design. It invites viewers to really reflect on identity, grief and what it means to be truly alive. So I'll flick to you, tia, what was your first impressions of this movie? Had you watched it before? What did you think of it after you?

Speaker 2 5:10

you watched it and kind of watch your history with Pinocchio as well, because it's a story that's been around forever. Yeah, so, um, I mean I didn't know it was a book first and foremost, until I was like looking into this film. But I was very familiar with the, the Disney version, the original Disney version. Obviously it was one of the VHS tapes that my nana and granddad had, so that's when we watched a lot when we were there and I remember really loving it but just having so much fear around it like childhood bit, like particularly monstro, which I'm sure we'll get more into later, but terrifying yeah, I'm actually gobsmacked because everyone in my entire life that hears that I have a terrible fear of whales to this day they treat me with so much shock.

Speaker 1 5:51

I've never met anyone that has the same reason for fearing that kind of thing until now, because literally Pinocchio is the reason why whales and deep ocean and things like that and massive sea creatures freak me out so much because of monstros. So I can completely relate and I can't believe that I've actually found somebody that feels that way too, because I'm the same Like. I watched the Pinocchio VHS as a child and even scenes in I think they called it Pleasure Island in the Disney version where they start turning into donkeys.

Speaker 2 6:17

So, creepy in the donkeys. Yeah, I love donkeys. Now, they're one of my favorite animals, you know, as are. I'm sorry to like break your heart on this one, but I do love whales, but I'm still scared of monstros.

Speaker 1 6:29

No, that's okay. I associated the monstro with whales and hated all of them ever since. It's fair, it's fair.

Speaker 2 6:35

It's. You know I've spoken a few times before on my podcast but like it tends to be, like childhood loves will stay with you and childhood fears definitely do. Like I am the same with sleep and beauty in the spindle horrible. Yeah, monstro was just horrendous, and the and pleasure island and I I think, having watched this film and reflecting on the undertones of that, I wonder how much of that was me absorbing like shame and guilt and not, yeah, and you know, disobedience and all of those things, or was it was. Was it just that it was creepy visually? I don't know, but it's. It's such a weird one, that 1940 version, because you've got all of that really dark stuff, but then some of the the other bits are so aesthetically cute and pleasing and warm and you've got figaro the cat and clear fish and like geppetto and his little nighty and I love all of that stuff.

Speaker 1 7:26

Exactly, and you know the warmth of the blue fairy and how she grants that wish for Geppetto and Jiminy Cricket, just all around became like a mascot for.

Speaker 1 7:36

Disney, yeah, proper gen, absolutely yeah, and you know doing his best to help Pinocchio out. Yeah, even the song, you know, wish Upon a Star, that kind of is the anthem really for Disney. So it really traveled really far, considering the themes in the movie are, as you said, quite kind of dark. So, yeah, I watched it as a kid, just like you did, and there's been lots and lots of versions of this as the years have gone on. Each time I've met with the same sort of feeling, general sort of fear, but I kind of steered clear away from the Pinocchio story until this one came out. I haven't seen the Disney remake, the 2022 Disney remake live action, but I've heard it's not all. It's sort of cracked up to be. Have you seen it, tia?

Speaker 2 8:19

I think I've watched bits, but a few friends said just don't bother because it's not great. And I think it was such a mistake for them to do it at the same time as this one, particularly because, you know, especially when this one was another animation to the highest level, you could Well, yeah, like obviously stop motion, but the highest caliber you could create, and then just yeah, it kind of had everything going for it too.

Speaker 1 8:43

It had, like, Tom Hanks, Geppetto, Robert Zemeckis those two paired together for Forrest Gump before, so you're like it should win. But yeah, it just didn't communicate that to audiences and I think it did have a lot to do with the fact that Guillermo brought this one out. He'd been working on it for three years prior and, as you said, that stop motion is just sort of breathtaking.

Speaker 2 9:06

It is of breathtaking. It is and I think a lot of people generally aren't keen on the live action remakes and I think that the yeah, that contrast of seeing guillermo's work and how much heart and love had gone into it versus just a money-making like sort of rehash soulless rehash, yeah, so yeah yeah, um, speaking of that love and speaking of that, that stop-motion animation, we might dive into a little bit about that because that's, as I've said, probably the most breathtaking part of this movie and the most visually impressive.

Stop Motion Animation Mastery

Speaker 1 9:30

These models, these puppets, were all handmade. They combine various different stop motion features and technology that's developed over years and years. We're talking Pinocchio, for example, is a 3D printed puppet. His face, they have lots of different sort of face replacements that they use for various different shots and some of the puppets as well sort of had animatronic faces that they could sort of push and squeeze and move. That looked a little bit more like latex driven, and I love the choice that they made to make pinocchio that 3d printed puppet as opposed to the latex, because he's obviously far apart from being that human. It's kind of part of the, the actual story that he's so far removed from humanity. But yeah, I just thought that stop motion was just absolutely beautiful. What were your thoughts of it when you watched it?

Speaker 2 10:12

yeah, it was my favorite element of of the film as well. Yeah, I'm really excited I saw I haven't had a chance to watch it yet, but they've got the behind the scenes like special on netflix about it as well and I'm very excited to watch that because it is just it's. It's one of those examples of when an art form is at its highest level. There's so many beautiful small details, like one that stood out to me quite early on is when he's carving carlo's shoes and just just the wood shavings and like the movement of everything. Yeah, every single detail, like and frame has has love in in this, in this film.

Speaker 2 10:49

It's it's just mesmerizing, really breathtaking to to see, and especially when you then take a step back and think how much work went into this and how long did it take to put all this together um it's mind-blowing yeah, yeah, so it's.

Speaker 1 11:04

It's 24 frames per second, which means like 24 different movements of the character for every second. And then they, they also did the maths and they said that there was about five seconds of footage per animator per week and they had over 60 animators on the project over the three-year period. It was in production for over a thousand days. They had, you know, over a thousand puppets as well that were created. And they didn't cut any corners as well, because you, when I'm making something for claymation, for example, you just make your simple sort of sausage man and you move along as best that you can, because then you don't have to worry about, you know, moving hair, moving vests, things like that. But even the character of, say, volpe, for example, with his long illust hair, arced nose and then that billowing overcoat, the way that that moves and swishes, is almost sort of natural.

Speaker 1 11:49

That was a deliberate choice to do and it obviously would have put in a thousand times more work to pull off correctly. And not only that, that deliberate sort of choice to animate those elements of character design, but I also found it really endearing that characters would have mistakes animated, and I heard guillermo talking about this when he did his behind the scenes where you can see it, when sort of spazitura goes to to knock on volpe's door. He kind of goes to knock and he's like oh, I don't know about that, and he scratches his face and then he knocks again. I'm like that would have taken that's like three seconds of animation, which therefore would have taken about a week to animate him just thinking about knocking on the door. So I'm like those mistakes are just sort of animated in to make it seem like it's so real.

Speaker 1 12:30

And, as you said about the carving with the wooden shoes, I love the scene when Geppetto had a little bit too much to drink and was obviously carving Pinocchio, because when he was putting things down, like the bottle would go down and it would knock like a nail and then they'd have to animate the nail rolling around and even those tiny little things that they just had to animate. They didn't just stop when it came to animating the characters, it was just mind-blowing yeah, it really is.

Speaker 2 12:54

Like it is just I don't know how else to say it beyond that, but I think you could watch this an infinite amount of times and find something new each time, because there is so much detail in there.

Speaker 1 13:05

I 100% agree. It's a masterpiece. Do you remember the scene when Spazitura was kind of like swinging down the lights and going through the sort of carnival sequence and then in the background there was lots of different claymation puppets like lifting weights or moving things around the area and sort of jumping through the carnival sequence? There he was on his way to sort of Volpe's caravan at that point oh, yeah, yeah, and that shot there.

Speaker 1 13:27

It was shot with a roving camera, so it was a moving camera that went across, but it was also that was 24 seconds of film and it was just one of the most elaborate and beautiful pieces that I've ever seen. That's probably my favorite scene of the movie, just for how artistic it is. But yeah, it's just, you know, 60 handcrafted sets as well. All the set design was made. You know, the churches, the boats, the townships, volpe's sort of theater production that was all kind of made. It was just, yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, it's no wonder that it won the Oscar for Best Animator Featuring 2023.

Speaker 2 14:00

It would have been criminal for it not to win, wouldn't it?

Speaker 1 14:02

Absolutely.

Speaker 2 14:03

What they've done with them all. Now I wonder if they're in a museum or exhibition or something.

Speaker 1 14:08

I would hope so, because unless Guillermo kept them.

Speaker 2 14:11

Yeah maybe?

Speaker 1 14:12

Yeah, because there was heaps of them actually, because they didn't just keep one puppet per character, they had multiple, obviously for various different reasons, and they were all about 13 inches tall, so just a little bit bigger than a Subway sandwich. But some of the ones that they did were actually really huge, like Pinocchio's head, for example. They made a really large-scale one of Pinocchio's head so they could animate Jiminy Cricket moving up his nose. Yeah, because it would have been harder to do it in a smaller scale. So it's just like the thought and the care that sort of went through that and it was obviously a labor of love. And I think kiamo has a fondness for these kinds of stories, because he's obviously done pinocchio now but then he's moving now into doing frankenstein as well, which is sort of like another I was going to say actually the, the, when you know he's, he's drunk and making pinocchio, it's very frankenstein influence, isn't it?

Speaker 2 15:02

with the storm outside and everything. I loved it actually, that scene. It this time watching it. I don't know if you've seen Parks and Rec before, but there's a. There's a meme of like did a would a depressed person make this?

Speaker 1 15:14

you've seen that one no, I haven't seen that one, but I can definitely attest to it because I loved that, that initial scene when Pinocchio first wakes up for the first time.

Speaker 2 15:23

He's like barely human in the way that he moved Like that is so horrific and Frankenstein-like.

Geppetto's Grief and Growth

Speaker 1 15:29

But I love that they started that way because it shows his growth from like literally not knowing how to be a human to then becoming one of the kindest and nicest boys to ever walk the planet Earth. I agree completely with you that storm sequence outside the scene where he's sort of crafting, completely Frankenstein-like, and there are a lot of similarities in that vein too. So I can definitely see it, yeah. So let's move on. Now We'll go to having a little bit of a look at some of the characters and how they sort of grew across the picture or across the movie. So, as we're looking at sort of Geppetto, we kind of start with him and he's like I don't know how to say this sensitively, but like he's a grieving father because he's obviously lost his son and I can't imagine the kind of grief that that would impart on somebody. But I feel like it's been portrayed on screen just so beautifully well, especially the times after Carlo passes away, because he is very rough around the edges. Geppetto is at the start of the movie.

Speaker 2 16:30

Yeah, I mean, I hadn't seen this until a few months ago when we talked about covering it, and the first time I watched it, that opening sequence with Carlo was my highlight of the film. I re-watched it again this morning actually, and I enjoyed the whole film more overall on the second watch. But yeah, the pain and emotion they pack into that and his grief afterwards is just horrendous to watch.

Speaker 1 16:56

Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2 16:57

Really heartbreaking. But but you know, in a very human way you have all those feelings of frustration towards him as well, because he is just obviously coming from a place of pain and grief. He's so awful to Pinocchio in the beginning, through such a wealth and roller coaster of emotions with him, considering how briefly he's on screen, like like you are straight in there with him and and just in this complete, complete turbulence that he's obviously going through as well. But yeah, he is a flawed character. But I guess that so much of that exploration is is that you know, parents are just people too, trying their best, and and I think there's definitely, definitely it flips a lot between that perspective of the way parents see the world and are trying their best and the way it's then interpreted to the child. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's incredible.

Speaker 1 17:55

Yeah, and I think that Geppetto, through his flips and flops in grief, is part of Pinocchio's journey obviously as well, because he's quite grief-stricken, obviously creates Pinocchio in that way and he doesn't really want a piece of him to start with, but then he kind of embraces that idea, thinking that he's actually found his replacement for his son. And part of the learning that Geppetto goes through as well is learning that you know that love that he had for Carlo is special, but it's a different kind of love that he's going to have to grow for Pinocchio, because Pinocchio is a different sort of child and a very different boy in that space.

Speaker 1 18:35

But even with that sort of difference in his mind, I still like that Geppetto sort of championed and protected Pinocchio's individualism in front of all the townspeople as well. So when they were calling him horrible names and things like that, he sort of took him home and had words to him. But then there was that beautiful scene where he's kind of telling him a story and tucking him into bed.

Speaker 2 18:58

Yeah.

Speaker 1 18:59

And he's treating him like a son, basically, him like a son, basically. So there is that element to him that is caring towards Pinocchio, despite the fact that the outside pressures are telling him that your child is different. So that's another element of Geppetto that I really really connected to and liked as well, and obviously, throughout all Pinocchio stories, geppetto is a character that is extremely determined to find his son when he goes missing and and you know, correct the mistake that he made, which I think is something that a lot of parents can relate to.

Speaker 2 19:29

All the time, you know doing your best, basically and I think you know obviously I said he was, he was awful to pinocchio. But I will say it's no offense to anyone who has kids and I'm sure this is yourself included but those early scenes when pinocchio first wakes up is like the best advert for me not to have children. It's like horrifying, it's like just carnage toddler just smashing the place that's a Tuesday in this house it was more the it's the screaming for the hot chocolate.

Speaker 1 19:53

I was like, oh no, that was so real but but yeah, I like even that that part there, when he's screaming for the hot chocolate. And you know, podesto, podestro, podesto, he's, he's there and and so screaming for the hot chocolate, and you know, pedesto, pedestro, pedesto, he's there and so is the priest. Geppetto was kind of like trying to play face and he was just like no, no, go and sit over there. And then he's just like here, have the hot chocolate. It's like what parent hasn't done that? It's just like go, yeah, I mean like it would definitely be what I'd do.

Speaker 2 20:19

But, you're just saying as well about him just trying to replace Carlo and then accepting Pinocchio. I guess he drowns his grief in drink and then he still isn't dealing with it. With Pinocchio he's just like great, I've replaced Carlo, I've just put a plaster over it. But it's not actually until he deals with it and lets Carlo go that he can love Pinocchio in the way that he actually should.

Speaker 1 20:43

Yeah, and I think a big person in helping him get through that is obviously Pinocchio, but also the cricket, which is Sebastian J Cricket or something like that in this one.

Speaker 1 20:52

Not Jiminy like usual, he's so good played by Ewan McGregor. I think they cast him perfectly. Yeah, absolutely. He's got that English sort of deadpan delivery in his comedy, but he's also very emotionally heartfelt in the way that he speaks as well. Yeah, I think that jiminy cricket. He also said you know very, very critical line in the movie. He said you know the boy loves you for who you are. Is it too much for you to do the same for him?

Speaker 2 21:17

basically so I'm gonna say that scene. It's like you know, we see these kind of renditions all the time of people's like brains or conscious, like them, talking to them from an outside manifestation. But yeah, that was obviously like when you think that's his conscience talking that's him having a go at himself. Really it's yeah, it's a really amazing scene.

Speaker 1 21:40

Yeah, yeah, and I also like that they didn't play Sebastian Cricket in this as that, the same way that they did Jiminy basically in the original Disney, not only by design, but he sort of started the others grow and it just goes to show how many lives Pinocchio kind of touched in the way that he was so individually and unapologetically himself and I really liked how he, like Sebastian, would advocate for Pinocchio in that sort of manner and, as you said as well, you know he is that sort of conscience on the side and but he's also sort of his own character. You said as well, you know he is that sort of conscience on the side and but he's also sort of his own character as well. But he plays that conscience character not only for pinocchio but also for geppetto.

Speaker 2 22:31

I think that's that's really awesome part of his character and himself really, because I think he, you know, like his motivations do change, as you say, and he grows and there's something, yeah, very nice about just trying to observe life and write about it with those kind of motivations and then actually realizing you want to be a part of it. Yeah, all very beautiful.

Pinocchio's Quest for Acceptance

Speaker 1 22:50

Absolutely and I think that at the two things I think them putting the running gag in that you just get squished all the time is when he starts to try and sing. A song is great.

Speaker 2 23:00

Actually because Hugh McGregor's voice is amazing.

Speaker 1 23:02

So you're like oh great.

Speaker 2 23:03

Cut it short, yeah, because Hugh McGregor's voice is amazing.

Speaker 1 23:04

So you're like, oh great, cut it short. Yeah, that's it. But then the second thing is at the end, when he starts trying to present his life in this scholarly manner, he ends up sort of giving away a wish that could give him really anything to bring back Pinocchio, which is the complete selfless act act and an amazing turnaround for that sort of character to go through as well. So I think sebastian is just yeah, I'm gonna say it, I think he's better than jiminy yeah, no, he is, he is, you know, the.

Speaker 2 23:31

There's obviously a lot more depth to this version and he is a much more rounded and interesting character because he's, he's, goes on his own journey, like you say, where original jiminy's just yeah, he's kind of all time absolutely he's pushing that obedience, isn't he, which is good boys do this.

Speaker 1 23:48

And actually he does start off that way as well, because he, he says to to Pinocchio. He says you must obey, you have to do as your papa says. And then Pinocchio turns around, says, but I don't want to do what my papa says. And then he goes okay, well, then you must do your best and that's all you can do. So yeah, I think it was very early on that we learned that Pinocchio kind of wasn't going to move in the same sort of transitional way as the original Pinocchio did Like, to the point where, at the end of this, when they're talking about him being a real boy, it looked very different in this movie as well.

Speaker 2 24:18

Yeah, he's still his puppet self. It's just, you know, mortal to an extent.

Speaker 1 24:27

It's not necessarily defined in clear-cut terms. Yeah, yeah, I don't think so.

Speaker 2 24:29

Yeah, I thought that was interesting because I think it would have been in this version to go through all of that exploration of accepting him for who he is. It would have then been totally off to to change his form.

Speaker 1 24:42

I absolutely agree, because I think he not only learned to accept himself well, he always accepted himself it was kind of the environment around him that was needing to sort of go through that acceptance.

Speaker 1 24:53

But then for him to then conform to that environment by looking like everybody else, I think you're right. I think it would have been totally off. I think the real boy element for me comes from he actually learned how to feel, I guess, and mature in his sort of feelings, because at the start you know he's demanding hot chocolate, he's acting on impulse, he's sort of emotionally loud all the time, and then he sort of learns to become very empathetic because he's obviously expressing a lot of emotions as a very emotional being. But then the flip side of that is you also sort of can recognize a lot of those emotions from other people which he ends up doing.

Speaker 1 25:27

One thing from Pinocchio that sort of did strike me in this is the concept of how conditionally loved he is at times, which I think is very evident in the Volpe sort of arc, when he's being used basically and exploited for his talent. But then even, I think, for Geppetto, as we were saying before, he is very well loved when he's acting good like Carlo, did be a good boy like Carlo, but then when he was presenting behaviours that were considered obtrusive, then he would be called a burden, and I think that that sort of conditional love is something that was really sort of stood out to me as well as a theme in this movie.

Speaker 2 26:05

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think it's obviously even more sort of I can't think of what the word is sort of prevalent in Geppetto, literally like creating Pinocchio in one night. It's kind of like he didn't. You look at parenthood and things, and people don't ask to be brought into the world. If you're making that choice you can't then you know you have the responsibility and you've got to got to love them unconditionally really so it's, yeah, a really interesting part of both of their journeys really and it definitely explains.

Speaker 1 26:35

You know, in the 1940 disney version you get the impression planicchio just runs off because he wants, he's got all of that temptation, whereas this is much more about him wanting validation and and love and approval really yeah, that's such a good point as a masterful change in my opinion as well, because it it excuse my ignorance of pinocchio from the 1940s, but it kind of changes him from being that sort of brattish, childlike sort of character, which I do say that he expressed a lot of innocence of childhood there, but also can come off as a little bit brattish to this kid that really just wants that acceptance and wants and he's also kind of ignorant to it as well at the start.

Speaker 1 27:13

But as his journey goes on he kind of realizes that he doesn't really fit in in places and his journey is how can he be himself and fit in this world of of fascist italy? And I think guillermo did an amazing job by putting it in that kind of environment, because that environment and that part of history in in fascist italy was all about control and obedience formity.

Speaker 2 27:37

Yeah, and all of pinocchio's behavior is coming from a place of curiosity. They say you've got to obey your father? Why? Well, you just have to, you have to go. They say you've got to obey your father why? Well, you just have to. You have to go to school because you just have to. He's not allowed to question anything. Yeah, and obviously with the backdrop of fascist Italy, people are not actually allowed to question the system and have their own.

Speaker 2 28:00

There's even a line actually isn't there from I've forgotten the character's name where he says oh, he's a free-thinking individual spirit. We don't like that. Yeah, we don't like that at all.

Speaker 1 28:09

I thought it was really interesting just to mention off your point that Pinocchio was displaying all these abhorrent qualities of individualism. And then, you know, podestro's answer to that was send him to school. I thought that was pretty funny. It was just like, well, that'll turn him into, you know, a smart boy. And then Pedestro's conditional love we might say for Pinocchio then enhances when he realizes that he can be useful in a warlike environment.

Speaker 2 28:35

Yeah.

Speaker 1 28:36

Yeah.

Speaker 2 28:37

Yeah, that was the first time I watched this. It was a bit of a because I went in quite blind, so it of a like because I. I went in quite blind so it was a bit of a shock to have this backdrop, but you know it, it just, it just really works and it definitely works thematically with with everything else going on.

Speaker 1 28:54

No, I think combining pinocchio and candlewick, as well as two different sort of childhood characters, together, was really smart, because candlewick's obviously a product of the system and pinocchio is definitely not.

Speaker 1 29:05

So putting them together, you can see the absolute differences between the two boys.

Speaker 1 29:09

But then there's that beautiful scene where they're sort of in their bunks and they're talking about how they reflect upon how their fathers treat them, and you could say that they both have experienced very similar things in terms of their their fathers treating them a particular way, and obviously one coming from a place of extreme grief and one coming from conformity to a governmental oppressive system.

Speaker 1 29:31

And I think that, even though they have those differences, pinocchio and Candlewick are still able to connect on the fact that they really just want to be loved by their father for who they are. And it gets to the point where Candlewick actually says at the end, when he's confronted with the the choice of of shooting pinocchio, he said I may be afraid and I may be weak in your eyes, but I can still say no to you. And he learns that from pinocchio, which I think is absolutely beautiful and goes back to the point where we were talking about how pinocchio literally changes everybody he touches through his individual self, which is a beautiful reflection of, and also a beautiful advocation of being yourself in different sort of situations, especially oppressive ones.

Speaker 2 30:12

So I found it. I've noticed it more this time. I found it a bit of a shame that they don't really explain what happens to candlewick, like you see that I think he crawls out of the wreckage after that explosion but he doesn't come back again I suppose you know kind of that's war.

Life, Death, and What Matters

Speaker 1 30:27

Maybe he doesn't and I think that I think his, his story purpose you might say, kind of ended there where you can sort of say you know he's, he's done that sort of purpose for pinocchio and he in pinocchio's story. But for pinocchio, poor thing, he went from that environment straight to being, you know, strapped to a piece of wood by volpe and lit on fire.

Speaker 2 30:43

So that sort of thing and obviously spazitura is very like similar sort of story to to what candlewick's going through with his father and that you know, those scenes are sort of back to back of him finally standing up to to volpe and yeah, I mean, I say him, I don't know spazitura is yeah, I'm not sure either.

Speaker 1 31:00

I'm not sure if they've they gender or them.

Speaker 2 31:03

See who it was voiced by then.

Speaker 1 31:04

Yeah, absolutely, and.

Speaker 2 31:08

Cate Blanchett, which is amazing. It blew my mind because the wood spirit and death. I thought that was Cate Blanchett because I do get her and Tilda Swinton's voices confused quite a lot. And then I IMDb'd it and I was like, yeah, there's Cate Blanchett, okay yeah.

Speaker 1 31:28

No, it okay. Yeah, no, I I. I saw an interview with her and she is a massive fan of guillermo's work and he she heard that he was working on this movie, pinocchio, and he said I will do any part that he will give me.

Speaker 1 31:36

And he said, well, I only really have, because he was gonna. He was gonna do sound effects for spazitore. And he said I really only have. Like, I could do spazitore, you could do the voice of a monkey. And she goes I I'll do it. Yeah, so she just loves working with him so much and I can attest that I would do anything to be a part of this movie too. But it has a pretty phenomenal voice cast too. You know, obviously we said Ewan McGregor. There's David Bradley as Geppetto, who was obviously Mr Filch in Harry Potter. Ron Perlman, who is a frequent collaborator with Guillermo del Toro. He was Hellboy and he played Podesto. His deep voice can't be mistaken for anybody. But then also Finn Wolfhard from Stranger Things. Yeah, he was, what would you say now Candlewick.

Speaker 2 32:15

Yeah, yeah, he's a really nice voice, it's good.

Speaker 1 32:18

Yeah, oh, and obviously Christoph Waltz as well, whose voice is unmistakable. All right, Were you ready to talk about your most valuable takeaways from the movie Tia?

Speaker 2 32:32

Yeah, yeah. So I think for me it's the final line of the film. That's when it sort of really had the big impact on me. Is that what happens happens and then we're gone. And obviously the film does explore life and our purpose and death and all of those things. Just as a side note. The death sort of sequences are beautiful. I really death and all of those things. Just as a side note the death sort of sequences are beautiful.

Speaker 2 32:55

I really really loved all of those.

Speaker 2 32:57

But yeah, I guess you've even got the sand timers there and this concept of us all being on borrowed time and it being short and what you're going to do with that time.

Speaker 2 33:06

And I think it's really interesting that the film explores religion and then obviously fascism and these ideas of higher powers that people are serving, but ultimately, the one that matters is is your loved ones and and being selfless and and living for other people and and just just appreciating the life you have as well. And I think on the flip side of that, you know, this idea that it's fleeting also explores that you can find life after grief, obviously for geppetto, pinocchio at the end as well, continuing without all of his friends and just, yeah, the beauty of that and yeah, I think just all of those those scenes tie in beautifully and that was sort of what really hit me most in the film yeah, I, I agree, because I feel like that's also a lesson that Pinocchio learns through the movie as well, because those first few times that he well, the first time obviously it was a bit of a shock, but then after that the way he talks about death is just like, yeah, I've died lots of times, it's fine.

Speaker 1 34:04

And he ends up then making those sort of sacrifices because he kind of knows that there is no consequence, you might say, to those kinds of sacrifices, but what makes them a sacrifice is that you're losing something pretty significant. And then he, he actually comes to that conclusion when he obviously has to give up his immortality to save geppetto at that time. So I I think that that that is a beautiful takeaway. But it's also a beautiful lesson that the characters sort of go through in this space and I completely agree, those sequences of death and even like the sand timers and and how beautifully backlit those playing animated characters are in that space, and the rabbits as well, and just they kind of flipped it on that sort of tongue-in-cheek, humorous tone at that point. One of my favorite sort of death scenes that sort of happened was when pinocchio got shot, but then it sort of it snapped from the gunshot to him, just busting out of the coffin.

Speaker 1 34:55

There he is, it's you again yeah, exactly, and then you know, obviously Sebastian's there playing cards with them at the end. But I really love the fact that Guillermo was able to explore grief and obviously death, but then the meaning of life through that as well, and the fact that it, as you said, that sort of fleeting instance that makes it important and the fact that you know Pinocchio ends up carrying Sebastian with him always, you know, in his heart.

Speaker 2 35:20

Oh God yeah, that broke me. Yeah, really broke me, and obviously it then finishes on the acorn as well like a beautiful cyclical thing as well, and I think it sort of explores the what happens happens and then we're gone. It's the accepting that we all, we all have to go at some point. Also, I guess the kind of the meaningless of life. But what then, on the flip side, what gives our life meaning? And I think the exploration of religion, like I said, is really interesting.

Speaker 2 35:48

I think the fact carlo gets blown up in a church in a random act that wasn't supposed to happen, without any real meaning to it. It's just. It's kind of like exploring how that kind of is how it goes.

Speaker 1 36:02

There were kind of a few sort of religious parallels in the movie as well, especially where, you know, pinocchio first saw the efficacy of Jesus in the church and he says he's wooden and they all love him. Why don't they love me? I thought that was really brilliant and really sort of insightful. But then also, as the movie went on, I sort of started to notice from that point on the similarities between that jesus effigy and pinocchio as he sort of traveled along the film, because when volpe sort of straps him to the piece of wood he's obviously in a sort of crucifix situation there, and then after he gets blown up after fighting the dogfish, he's missing the same arm as the Jesus at the start was missing too. So I'm not sure what they're sort of going for there, but even like the resurrection, you know that he sort of goes through at that point.

Speaker 1 36:47

Yeah, that might be something I'll have to sort of dive a little bit deeper into, but I think that there's definitely some some undertones there that need to be explored and it might just be, you know, back onto that life, death and and fate and destiny sort of situations. But yeah, I think that that's really really, really insightful. All right, my takeaway was that obviously, uniqueness isn't a flaw to be corrected, but it is a truth to be embraced, and it kind of speaks to, obviously, children that are kind of emotionally intense. And I can relate to this because I was a child that was pretty emotionally intense at times, being told that you're too disruptive, too sensitive, too emotional, especially as a guy as well.

Speaker 1 37:29

That's kind of the transition that I went through with this movie and I like the fact that when they looked at pinocchio in this film, it didn't frame it as like a deficit, because he was obviously trying to be himself in this and he was sort of the world kind of refused to make space for for pinocchio in that that space, and when he couldn't replace carlo, he's obviously seeking that connection as well, because in the film pinocchio actually said was carlo a good boy and geppetto said yes and he goes well, I'll be just like carlo, because he kind of wants that connection and he wants that affection and that kind of resembled like masking to me, like, and and also especially when he was performing in front of everybody and he was just so happy.

Speaker 1 38:12

And you look at his sort of face, as soon as the curtain closes because he's away from his father and the the score undertoning, you know, the papa song, he's obviously really sad, but then in front of everybody he's just so happy all the time. So I kind of spoke to that sort of masking quality that a lot of neurodivergent children sort of go through as well. And then, you know, there was the painful line of why can't you be a good boy just like carlo? It kind of reflects that experience that a lot of parents go through, where they struggle to accept a child that's sort of neurodivergent and the expectations of sort of society on those neurodivergent kids. And especially with geppetto, because it was like he was a man that was unlearning the belief that love has to be earned through conformity. He had to learn to love pinocchio for who he is and not for what he wanted him to be or what he thought he could be, and I thought that was just beautifully represented in this movie wow, that's.

Speaker 2 39:02

That's really beautiful and um all makes perfect sense.

Speaker 1 39:05

Yeah, amazing yeah, I that's like I really really enjoy this, take and love this movie because I feel like it speaks to a lot of different human qualities and I feel like it's so amazing because anybody that watches it can obviously take something different from it. But also, each time you watch it, you could take something different from it, not just visually but also thematically.

Speaker 2 39:26

It's so layered and rich. I was just admiring on the rewatch today. Rich, isn't it? Like even just I was just admiring on the rewatch today, like obviously you've got the, the genius decision to make everyone to use puppets to have a film about a puppet, but obviously with the backdrop of the war. People are just puppets in war and propaganda.

Speaker 1 39:42

So yeah, I mean that you can just, yeah, layers and layers and layers and layers it's so clever and I think that, yeah, the most beautiful part for me is obviously the fact that they didn't make him a real boy at the end. I really love that part because, as you touched on, you know, if he changed it wouldn't have fit the tone of the film. But also, he's real because he feels and he is loved because of who he is and not for who he turns into or how obedient he is, and you know, he can be himself safely and fully and without shame, and that's that's probably the most beautiful part of this story that I sort of came across.

Speaker 2 40:19

That's amazing.

Speaker 1 40:20

I yeah, I'm gonna have to watch it again yeah in mind now well, I I hope that it's a good rewatch because, as we said, you know you can take it into lots of different spaces. But, yeah, okay, tia, I want to really thank you for joining me. This has been an amazing and beautiful chat about a movie that I really do hold dear, and thank you for coming on the podcast.

Speaker 2 40:41

You're so welcome. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 40:43

Did you want to just tell us where everybody on the internet can find you as well, and we'll have all these notes in the show notes for everybody as well.

Speaker 2 40:50

This is tia jackson guys yeah, so you can find me on social media. So instagram, freds and blue sky at the alien effect pod, or you can email me at the alien effect pod at gmailcom.

Speaker 1 41:01

So, yeah, feel free to get in touch and yeah, enjoy geek out with a lot of different guests that tia has, so you do weekly episodes, tia fortnightly, but I I might be spacing out a bit more because it's time consuming Absolutely, and you know we talked a little bit about it at the start, but it's a really big undertaking.

Speaker 1 41:20

You know we do this to express a need or because we love it so much, but it does take a little bit of time and I really do appreciate your time today to be on the show.

Speaker 2 41:29

It's been an absolute joy, honestly.

Speaker 1 41:33

Yeah, I'll happily chat any times.

Future Episodes and Sign-off

Speaker 2 41:34

Thank you, you're always welcome as well if you want to.

Speaker 1 41:36

Yeah absolutely, and yeah, that's it for me. I'll catch you guys later. Thanks, that was tia jackson from the alien effect podcast, and we discussed everything to do with pinocchio. One of the things that really resonated with me in that episode, guys, was how much we discussed pinocchio wanting to be accepted for his true self. It's because of this that the Fandom Portals podcast is, from now on, going to be doing multi-episode runs on a single most valuable takeaway or theme, and we'll be fitting various different movies into that theme, various different movies into that theme. So what this means is, for the next three to four weeks, we're going to be looking at films that really focus on the theme of becoming your true self, and Brash and I are going to be looking at three to four different movies, one per episode that really explores different facets of that theme of becoming your true self. We're approaching 50 episodes, guys, and we're also approaching one year of the Fandom Portals podcast and we've evolved quite a lot through that time. So if you've been on this journey with us, please send us an email because we will be reading some out on our 50th episode celebration.

Speaker 1 42:45

Thank you to those people who have stuck around, to new followers and old. We really do appreciate your listenership, and the community that we've built here at Fandom Portals is an open one. That is one of my favorite places to discuss all the things that I love, so thank you for making it so welcoming. Thank you for interacting with us online and also through our podcasts and YouTube channels. There's much more to come from the Fandom Portals podcast guys. We want to thank you for being a part of the journey so far.

Speaker 1 43:12

We hope you enjoy the new format coming forward, which is focusing on various different themed arcs as we move forward. So please make sure that you follow, check out all the links in the show notes for any updates and also join our mailing list, which is on our website at wwwfandomportalspodcastcom. With that mailing list, we'll send you one email a month that tells you everything that's coming up on the podcast, and you'll also be the first one to know about any giveaways that we have and any special guests we have coming up on the show. So go and head to that website and become a part of the community today. We'll catch you next time. All right, bye-bye.