Nuanced Conversations Podcast
Welcome to Nuanced Conversations Podcast, where we dive deep into the complex and often overlooked aspects of today's most pressing topics. Each week, we bring you thought-provoking discussions with experts, innovators, and everyday people who offer unique perspectives and insights. Whether we're exploring the intricacies of social issues, science, culture, or personal development, our goal is to move beyond the surface and engage in meaningful dialogue that challenges assumptions and expands understanding. Join us as we navigate the gray areas and uncover the richness that lies in nuanced conversations.
Nuanced Conversations Podcast
Faith, Resilience, and Leadership: The Journey of Pastor Breonus Mitchell
Is it possible to lead a congregation through the darkest times of personal grief while maintaining a sense of community and faith? Join us for a heartfelt conversation with Breonis Mitchell, a dedicated pastor and community leader from Nashville, as he shares his inspiring journey. From his early days as a young preacher raised in the Bible Belt to his current role as the pastor of Mount Gilead Baptist Church, Breonis opens up about the pivotal moments that shaped his ministry. He speaks candidly about the profound impact of losing his first wife to breast cancer, raising his children alone, and the trials and triumphs that have defined his pastoral career.
Experience the evolution of Breonis’s ministry, beginning with his formative years at American Baptist College and his rise to pastor at Boyd Street Church. Breonis recounts the profound growth of Greater Grace Church, which he co-founded with his late wife, Keisha, and the emotional challenges he faced after her passing. Reflecting on the unique religious culture of Nashville, we discuss the influential role of the church in shaping lives and communities, especially during challenging times such as the crack epidemic. Breonis offers insights into leading small, family-driven congregations and navigating the complexities of church leadership during times of personal loss and transition.
Discover the broader themes that Breonis navigates in his journey, such as balancing tradition with modernity in churches, planning for retirement within the pastoral community, and finding love after loss. Breonis shares his thoughts on the evolving nature of church traditions, the importance of financial planning for pastors, and the transformative power of empathy and genuine connection in ministry. Through personal anecdotes and professional wisdom, this episode provides a rich tapestry of lessons on resilience, faith, and the continuous journey of learning and growth in the life of a pastor.
Greetings. Thank you for listening to the Nuance Conversation podcast. My name is George Hurd. I am the curator and creator and host of this podcast. Nuance Conversation is meant to be empathetic, meant to be intelligent, meant to be a conversation where we are prone to listen to one another and, at the same time, be nuanced in the respect of digging to not the black and white, but the gray areas of particular subjects. All right, so thank you for coming to Nuance Conversations. Before we get started, I need to swear you in here.
Speaker 2:If you could raise your right hand and say I swear to be intelligent to be transparent, to listen and empathetic in our conversation. To listen and be empathetic in our conversation.
Speaker 1:You can just agree to it. You don't have to repeat after me.
Speaker 2:Just think of court, because you're going to do that. Is that what you're going to do in this conversation?
Speaker 1:Of course, as the creator, curator and host.
Speaker 2:I will definitely do that. You should work hard on this. That's good. Thanks for doing that.
Speaker 1:I have a special special guest with us today, a dear Christian friend and brother, beloved, also a classmate, and about time that you are viewing this. Hopefully we are fellow doctors in ministry of the Memphis Theological Seminary in Memphis, tennessee. He is also a wonderful shepherd, outstanding preacher and loving husband and father, and so we want to dive in knowing more about him. He plays a significant role in our historical National Baptist Convention and we'll hopefully have a conversation about that. But just in general, about the state of the church, preaching and how can we impact the culture better. You're in Nashville, I'm in Los Angeles. What are the things that are working in the context of ministry? What are the things that are not? But before we get into all that, that's just an overview. How are you doing today, man?
Speaker 2:I'm doing okay, let me see you doing today. Man, I'm doing okay. Yeah, let me see how this goes. No, I'm doing good.
Speaker 1:No, you're doing great, if that's the standard. Tell us a little bit about yourself, where you originally from, much as you feel like, comfortable sharing your family structure, your early days and your journey into ministry and pastor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man. Well, I'm Breonis Mitchell, 50 years old man. I've been in Nashville my entire life, born and raised there, baptized at Tabernacle Baptist Church, and then I went on to join a church called Watson Grove and Pastor Goodwin. He licensed and ordained. I think I was licensed in 91 and ordained in 93. I think that's what it said.
Speaker 1:How old are you? How old were you?
Speaker 2:18 and 22,. I think when I got ordained, got called to my first church At 22? Mm-hmm, what church was that? At Boy Street Baptist Church in Nashville, 22? What church was that? Boy Street Baptist Church in Nashville. Stayed there three years and then left there and started Greater Grace. Stayed there 19 years and then left Greater Grace in 2016 to take the church that I'm currently at right now, which is Mount Gilead Baptist Church, married to a Jaquita we're looking at, I. We got married in 18. So we're on six years. Six years this year of marriage. Two kids in my prior marriage which that ended with, you know, the death of Keisha died at the age of 40 of breast cancer, and my kids were, let me see, brennan was one and BJ was 11 when she died, and so they are BJ is 21 now.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Brennan is 10, but he'll be 11 in June. Okay, so yeah, currently serving as the chair of the board for National Baptist Convention, USA, Incorporated. Member of the beloved Alpha Phi, Alpha Fraternity Incorporated, 100 Black Men of Middle Tennessee and some other things. Chair of the board.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you got a robust resume there for the people to know who we deal with here, but before we get into all those various things that are nuanced. Tell us a little bit about growing up in Nashville, the heart of the crack epidemic. Are you growing up in an inner city suburban? What is life like? What is the role of church? What's the role the church played in your early years of development?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, probably like everybody, my age. You know if you 50 years old or older, you were raised as what we call the church baby. So you know I don't know life outside of church. You know old school church, you know before they went to eight o'clock worships, you know 930 Sunday school, 11 o'clock, three o'clock and in the evening worship. So I'm born and raised in the church and um, of course, nashville is a unique culture for church because it is the Bible built. Uh, so many denominations are housed, headquartered in Tennessee, particularly in Nashville. You have Southern Baptist Convention. You have, I think it's the Church of God, the original Church of God is there. You have National Baptist Convention USA Incorporated is there, and so there's a lot of denominations there. You have National Baptist Convention USA Incorporated is there, and so there's a lot of, you know, denominations.
Speaker 1:So your experience growing up is solely through the lenses of church? Yeah, yeah, so there's no rebel stories.
Speaker 2:One or two, but you tell yours and I'll tell mine.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, I will not do that.
Speaker 2:I didn't have. You't have my call to preach. I was arrested and I was in a jail. I told the Lord, if you get me out of here, I'll preach. Arrested for what Theft? Actually, I was arrested for theft Hanging out with some boys. I grew up it was a guy man. Look, they called themselves. You'd have to know this back in the day. We called ourselves what's it called? It was Edge Hill Hillside. That was where I grew up in, and so you know all that.
Speaker 1:So you're like a Hillside gang. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:You're hanging out. You're stealing clothes, shoes, man, we were stealing food. On that particular day we was trying to have a cookout and so we took the grocery cart. You know it was all Bill Crooks. I don't know if Bill Crooks has even existed. That's a grocery store. Yeah, grocery store man. We took the grocery cart. You know you go through the hole and you just throw everything in the cart, right, right, and then when you get to the counter, you get everything you need for a cookout.
Speaker 1:So in your rough jail life, you're in jail and everybody asks what you in for. I'm in for stealing groceries and this is this, and it's so scary to you. You say to God, if you get out of, get me out of this. What could be 48 hours in jail and a ticket?
Speaker 2:But you know, if you go back, you go back. You know I think I was 17, 18. You know that's almost 30 years ago. Murder wasn't like it is now. You know crime was. You know we were just entering. I remember when I was passing Boy Street in 93, 94. It was the first homicide that we had, like a kid getting shot on a street corner. That was the first time we heard of that in Nashville. That was Jeremiah Warfield. I'll never forget him. I knew the family. I did his service.
Speaker 1:So you know it wasn't like the culture and that's unique for Nashville, but you are having urban cities during this time that are engaging in regular violence. Yeah yeah, and heroin obviously crack comes into their drug lords. But Nashville was sort of insulated from that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was sort of insulated Because of the heavy church influence, because it's just churches everywhere, it was just a church culture, because it's just churches everywhere, it's just a church culture. And I think what affected the church culture was when we went through that you know, the baby, when teenagers started having kids. I think that was more of a pandemic for Nashville and an issue than crime was.
Speaker 2:And of course now teen pregnancy was, and of course now that is, you know, totally flipped. But I mean crime is, you know, totally flipped. But I mean crime is, you know, nashville is not Memphis, you know, memphis is 48 hours. Memphis is, you know, they're shooting up each other right now and gangs. So Nashville doesn't we have it, we have a gang unit man. I tell you, when I had Greater Grace, I remember one year, one particular year man, they had the Crips and the Bloods and, whichever way it went, the Crips killed one of the Bloods later and I did his eulogy at the church and then they retaliated and the next week I do the other gang's eulogy. So that was like a greater grace. That was my first eye-opener that gangs really existed. But for me, for the most part, it's just been, you know, addressing Nashville's known for church, but also known for country music.
Speaker 1:It's known for food. Yeah, we're known for country music.
Speaker 2:It's known for food as well. You know, music City is not called Music City for country music. Okay yeah, it's called Music City because it is the hub for all genres of music. Music Row is where you had RCA, bmi. What's RCA, what's BMI? Those are big labels back in the day, all of this housed on Music Row. It's big on country music, but a lot of individuals would come in to the city to do their overdubs and their remixes. They did that in Nashville.
Speaker 1:So after your 12-hour stay in jail, for stealing food. You are accepting your call to preach. What's that journey like? You are accepting your call to preach what's that journey like?
Speaker 2:Well, just tell us yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, you go to your pastor and tell them man, and you know my pastor was Curtis Goodwin, the late Curtis Goodwin, and man I'll never forget that morning. You know you get out, I'm sitting at my mom's house. I really hear the Lord saying preach I. I really hear the Lord saying preach I really. And I knew it at a young age. You know, if you ask people they say, well, you know he was preaching at a young age and he used to. You know, preach to my nieces and my nephews and preach to my little nieces, dolls, and all that. So it was. It was embedded in me. But on a serious note, that day I remember coming to the church to Watson Grove, and I was just walking and Reverend Goodwin pulled up and got in the car and said you going to do what the Lord wants you to do.
Speaker 1:That's what he said to you.
Speaker 2:You know them old heads, you know with spirit, you know what church was you at before Watson Grove Tabernacle Tabernacle.
Speaker 1:So what age did you join Watson Grove? I joined Watson Grove at 17. 17. And what made you switch churches?
Speaker 2:So Wasengrove was the neighborhood church. Tabernacle was a neighborhood church too, but Tabernacle was more of the affluent church in the neighborhood and Wasengrove, you know it, was located right by the housing project.
Speaker 1:It's where everybody went Okay. So after you're standing in jail you say, hey, I need to lead the affluent church.
Speaker 2:No, I left before then, okay. And why did you leave? Because I was grown. You know nothing deep.
Speaker 1:I've been born and raised in Tabernacle. Your family stayed there and you went. Yeah, my family Stayed. Only I went to and only you went as a teenager.
Speaker 2:Family stayed, my grandmother died in 95 after I was pastor.
Speaker 1:Oldest mother in the church. What grew you there as a teenager To Watson Grove?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Just youth. I mean, they were just More youth oriented. I mean you're by the housing park, so that's where everybody you go to school with.
Speaker 1:That's where they go, and then at Tabernacle it was more of it was you know, affluent you know very rich in his traditions, you know rich in his hymns, rich in his, you know in his liturgy Pastor pulls up in the parking lot asks you are you going to preach?
Speaker 2:You say what I said yeah, and we went in the office. Goodwin talked to me the next. That was like the last Sunday in July. He gave me 30 days. I preached my first service, september the 1st. Um, what was the name of the sermon? Exodus three. What a mighty God we serve. The whole narrative of uh Moses, you know the backside of the desert. I was on no more now, you know, trying to, but I thought it was good. I closed it. Man, you're going to laugh at this. So I closed, you know the Lord says I said do you still have your?
Speaker 1:script for your first sermon. I got it somewhere. It's handwritten. It's handwritten in a notebook.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mine's on plain white copy paper. Yeah, yeah, you should keep that. You need to find your manuscript, but anyway, I get to the end, man, I'm saying like I am, that I am God, be whatever you want to be. So this shows you how young I was. He's like Campbell Soup, he's good, you know.
Speaker 2:You remember back in the day though, jerome, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah, so I don't use none of that now, but it fit for the time. But yeah, so I started preaching with Goodwin. I got to Boyd Street, which is interesting as pastor, as pastor?
Speaker 1:How many years later, three years later, you said 22?.
Speaker 2:91, I started preaching. 93, Boyd Street College.
Speaker 1:Two years, two years later, two years. So are you like the hot young preacher in Nashville? You're preaching everywhere. So so are you like the hot?
Speaker 2:young preacher in Nashville I am. So in Nashville I was the first one, troy Hobart. The guy named Troy Hobart was the youngest, but we were all the young kids. You know, back in that day it wasn't usual common. Are you going to graduate high school? I got out of DCA. What's that? Donaldson Christian Academy.
Speaker 1:That's a high school.
Speaker 2:I went to High school, but did you go to college after that? Yeah, goodwin, put me straight into American Baptist College.
Speaker 2:So I graduated, accepted my call. July August I met ABC. How was life at ABC, man, I loved it. You know I met my closest friends because of that. Of course it's not the ABC that it is now, but when I grew up it was the preaching, the school for preachers. So I credit a lot of exposition and exegetical work to that ABC and I'll do respect to what the school does now. But you know it was shared between NBC USA and Southern Baptist Convention and so my preaching professor was Dr Richard Lucas, new Testament was McCoy. My Greek professor was Gideon Olale.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I went straight to there, and so, while you were in school, you got called to the church.
Speaker 2:Man, crazy True story. Boy Street needed a speaker because the pastor got sick. Dr Reverend Springer was an older guy and they called my pastor. They don't do it like that now. But Goodwin called me and was like hey, man, you know, they told you you didn't get the ax you know he said, hey, man, you going over to Boyle Street to preach this morning.
Speaker 2:I said, oh okay, yes, sir, no cost. I had to drive his car over there to preach and I go preach at Boyle Street. It was a small church, sanctuary, Macy, you know 100 people, you know a small, you know little base Still in existence today. And so I, I came back to, uh, Watson Grove, Um, and then November he was like he, he said, son, they, uh, they want to know if they want to know, if I'll let you preach every Sunday to the older press could get well. So I went and I preached every Sunday for one month. For November the old Springer came back. He was sick and man, weird thing. I'm sitting in Reverend Goodwin's house downstairs and me and him sitting there talking, Because you know, back in the day it was something to hang with your pastor, that man, they don't like that no more, it's about your peers now.
Speaker 1:back in the day it was something to hang with your pastor.
Speaker 2:Oh man, that man, they don't like that no more. You know it's about your peers now, but back in the day, if you could hang with your pastor that was Carrier's bag drive-on. I did all that, man. I had a pipe like him, you know, just wanted to be like in Carrie's bag, drive him. You know, all that stuff was big and, man, they did not call me when they voted for me to be the pastor. They called my pastor.
Speaker 1:So no, so you preached there for a month, the pastor came back.
Speaker 2:Oh, the pastor comes back. He retires. In the business meeting on, like the last week of December I think it was like the 28th or the night, something like that he retired and they call you in and they vote. That same night. That same night, he recommended me to be the pastor, the retired pastor and uh, and they called your pastor to let you know that they didn't call me and he called you I was sitting next to him, he said, yeah you, you're gonna pass the boy street, like, yeah, I gotta get the thing.
Speaker 2:Yes, sir and sir, and so I started New Year's.
Speaker 1:Eve, and so that's January.
Speaker 2:So that's 93. They called me in 94.
Speaker 1:They called you in January. What made you start? Greater Grace, I left.
Speaker 2:Boy Street.
Speaker 1:Why.
Speaker 2:Man I was doing, the church was growing and obviously in church dynamics I'm sure you know this, that you know when you pass a church that's got, like you know, 30, 40 members, it's family driven and the church had grown. Man, so crazy. I mean, boy Street was the hot topic. It was before well Walker, joseph Walker, had just come to Mount Zion, so we were passing the same time in Nashville and, man, it was just my time to go and I resigned on a Friday night.
Speaker 1:The church is growing and it's your time to go. It does add up the church is growing. That's how you are.
Speaker 2:There's tension they were at a point where they really wanted to keep their small church Gotcha and I respected that. No knockout drag out no fight.
Speaker 1:So it was no fight at all.
Speaker 2:They had my anniversary on Sunday and I left on. We had a business meeting on Wednesday and I presented like a plethora of things I wanted to do and man I'll never forget to those that are watching plethora means a lot go ahead you know you wasn't my friend. I had a lot of things that I was presenting to the church and when I presented everything to the church.
Speaker 2:They was like you know, we just not sure this for us. And so I dismissed the meeting on Wednesday. And then on Friday, man, I was just like I was sitting in the office and I asked the Lord for two things. One, I need somewhere to go if I'm going to leave. And then the second piece was show me that if I get here, I'm never going to be able to turn this church.
Speaker 2:And man, I'm in this office and Ruben Springer walked in and he said Mitch, when you get stuck by a rose bush for so long, it don't hurt no more. And he was telling me he had served at church years, 20 something years. He was telling me, you know, if you have to get beat up, you know you get stuck so many times you don't feel it no more. And I was like, well, that's first day, I ain't going for that. You know I'm not going to be the person where you sit here and you just get me, get me, get me and, believe it or not, I'm getting ready to go out into the meeting to address it.
Speaker 2:And Bishop Walker walked in he was just Joseph Walker at that time and we were best friends and Joe walked in and he said he was going to preach at a church on Brick Church, pike, remember. All day long he said, hey, man, if they put you out tonight you can use my zion. Well, he was worshiping in the world center at that time. Right, he was in the world center at that time. And so I was like, um, okay, all right. And that was my second saying. And man, I went out, just told them read my letter. I already had the letter of resignation, read it. Just told them, read my letter of resignation. I already had the letter of resignation, read it. Just told them. You know, I felt like I was going to do something else. That's a Friday, saturday we got Bible, we got putting programs together, choir rehearsal, everything going on in Mount Zion on Jefferson Street and Sunday lunch Greater Grace.
Speaker 1:How are you feeling at this point? Are you excited? Are you?
Speaker 2:disappointed that it didn't work out. No, no, no not disappointed. Not really good written. It's just you when you know you're having to go somewhere harmonious for, or something that's not man.
Speaker 1:I left.
Speaker 2:This is true. I left in April. I came back and did their revival. I've been back to preach eulogies for all of the key people in the church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, still talk to them. That's a good start, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it wasn't. I mean, they love me, I love them. I was, you know, just moving at a faster pace and then, you know, greater Grace was unique, it was shown up at any city church that I found you started Greater Grace. So it's not unique, it's a startup, so we started with about 300 members. We started with about 300 members.
Speaker 1:She was meeting in Mount Zion. How's the journey going there? Is it growing steadily Steady?
Speaker 2:growing. The Greater Grace never slowed down and of course, when you're a founding pastor, you're going. We went from Mount Zion to worshiping using the Church of God building, worshiped there for some years, had to leave there and we went to a school, left for school, went to the Max House Hotel. Max House Hotel back to the original Church of God building finally bought a building. How many building? Finally bought a building.
Speaker 1:How many years before you bought a building?
Speaker 2:Man, I wish you wouldn't have asked me that. I'm not sure when we bought the building, but yeah.
Speaker 1:What kind of building was it? Oh, a church building. It was a church building. No, I'm saying like, is it a sanctuary?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a sanctuary. It's everything we need, is it a?
Speaker 1:gym. Is it a gym? Is it school? No gym, it was just sanctuary fellowship halls.
Speaker 2:This is a traditional church, church of Christ. And so we bought that building and started out there. And then so yeah man, Greater Grace at its peak, we were doing like four services at its peak, moving, you know, commercials, all of that and I'm getting older.
Speaker 1:What made you make the move to where you are now from. Greater Grace, yeah.
Speaker 2:Keisha oh that's good. When Keisha died, man, because we had started that ministry together. So I got married in 95. I started Greater Grace in 96. So we had started that ministry together. So I got married in 95. I started Greater Grace in 96. So we had done everything together. And so when she got diagnosed with cancer in 2013, no 2012, then Brenda was born in 2013, and then she died in 2014. When she died in 2014, man, it hurt man, man, having to go and sit. It was to the point where I would have to come in and preach and leave. You know I'd preach on Sunday, cry all the way home. You know I'm raising a one-year-old baby.
Speaker 2:I'm raising an 11-year-old child and Mount Gilead becomes open.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I thought I was going to a shallow Baptist church in Fort Worth, texas, because I preached with Dr Chu and February, where I preached for—well, april, the year before that April I preached for—Tolan had left and went to fellowship and so I had interviewed for them and that just wasn't a fit for me. I felt like they really wanted me. But you know, you're from Detroit, I don't do cold weather man, I'm not that type of guy. So I didn't want to go north. Gotcha Shiloh was in Fort Worth. So February of 2016, I preached at Shiloh and at Mount Gilead Shiloh the first Sunday. Mount Gilead the fourth Sunday. Shiloh holds off on his vote. Mount Gilead is going to vote the first Sunday in April and I'm preaching for Tolan in Warner Robins at the new location. And that's when they called and said it. But it was at ease. They said that you had gotten to church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wanted to vote unanimously to be the pastor of that church, which is weird. Well, it was—so I grew up—Mount Gillette. Before I bought the new location, mount Gillette was at 901 Ackland and our house where I'm born and raised in was 1014 Ackland, so about eight houses up the street. So I knew the church well, went to VBS there, youth church and all that there, and then, as pastor, as preacher, did all their youth revivals and all that. So I had been there sometime before. So yeah, but I mean it was. I really didn't want to leave my members Right, and when you're found in the same city, you're found in the past.
Speaker 1:that's unique.
Speaker 2:again, that's unique, and you know to be honest you know, when Keisha died, I thought and I say this, you know, very transparent I thought that the members, it would galvanize the members to, you know, let's make this thing work. But I lost so many members, so many, you know, they would call and say, pastor, I just can't see you cry. It's not the same. Me being single was not the same. You know, man, it was one Sunday a girl came to church this is hilarious, funny, uh, but anyway.
Speaker 2:A girl came to church. I didn't know her from Adam's rib man, but they set her down cause the church was packed and the earth just made the mistake of sitting her down in the same seat Keisha used to sit in. Man, I couldn't preach any kind of sermon that day, I don't care what I would try. And so after I'm like, well, what happened? They think that's your girlfriend. I was like, I don't even know the girl.
Speaker 2:So, you know, but it was hard, man, you know, with Keisha, you know this church was us, you know, that was my side, you know. And so when Mount Gilead called, the blessing was because people knew greater grace, knew about Shiloh, because I told them I was going to Shiloh, mount Gilead, I think they really just thought he's going to go over there and preach. It's in the same city, you know, nobody thinking you're going to take a church in the same city because nobody does that, you know. So I think they thought I was leaving to go to Shiloh. And so when I preached for Toland the first Sunday, I come back to Mount Gilead. I call Mount Gilead and say let's just try to keep it quiet, let me try to figure this thing out, and I tell Greater Grace on the third Sunday, In April.
Speaker 2:In April. I tell them on the third Sunday that I'm getting this call, that I've made the decision that I'm going to take the call. One is I was carrying that church financially and I just couldn't. I couldn't raise two kids and take care of a church too and there's a founding pastor. It falls on you, you know, because trustees can leave, people can leave. You know it falls on you, you know, because trustees can leave, people can leave.
Speaker 1:You know it falls on you, Church membership had declined so much that you were the finances.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was down, Tremendously down not the one I was accustomed to, and so man taking Mount Gillett was a win-win for everybody. I lost members in the transition, those who said, because Mount Gilead was, you know it's an upscale, you know so Greater Grace dissolves.
Speaker 1:It did dissolve, I dissolved it, you dissolved it, and some people came to Mount Gilead.
Speaker 2:So I preached my last sermon at Greater Grace on the fourth Sunday in April. I started in Mount Gilead the first Sunday in May of 2016. And I guess that month maybe about 700 joined. It was over 200 and something. The first Sunday I went that joint Mm-hmm, gotcha, mm-hmm so yeah, it was at least that minute. They joined the first Sunday I went. So I did that and then, yeah, the rest is history. I get it. Where did you meet your first wife? We grew up in? We went to Head Start Kids growing up together. Oh, wow, yeah, we knew each other our whole life. When did y'all start dating? We started dating. Let me see, I was 18. She was 17. So when I came to Watson Grove and joined, that's when we started dating.
Speaker 1:You liked her the whole time, mm-hmm, and she just didn't give you the time of day, yeah.
Speaker 2:Now that's the problems you have. That's why you're not married right now. No, he defines a wife as a good thing. That's the Bible, brother. That is the Bible. You got to be looking that way, that's the Bible.
Speaker 1:That's the Bible, as I was saying. This interviewer here how long before y'all get married?
Speaker 2:I met Keisha in. Well, we started dating in 91 when I started preaching, and we got married in 95. So we dated right at five years, five, six years, yeah, and then we got married in 95, december Christmas.
Speaker 1:How did you learn about her illness?
Speaker 2:So I was preaching for here it goes, tolan again. I was preaching for tolling in Detroit, st Paul, new St Paul. And I'm coming home, get off the airplane. They call and tell me that my Keisha and BJ only had one at that point the day was in the car wreck. The car rolled over, it was a Yukon Denali Black and they got her out. Bj made it out. So you know they survived. But when we she started, so that was in November, so the end of November she's like having some pains, and so I said let's go check it out. So we go check it out and December, like he wanted me to have this say he wants me to cry because this hurts to tell this, but I'm going to laugh.
Speaker 2:But December, man, we go back to the doctor's office in December. She says, well, you know, we got some good news and some bad news. I'm like, okay, so what's the good news? The good news was you know that we found out she was pregnant with Brendan. You know that we found out she was pregnant with Brendan, mm-hmm, you know. And we said like, what's the bad news? She's like stage 3B cancer, yeah. And it was like wow. So Keisha and I made the decision to go through all of December, go through Christmas, go through New Year's, and we wouldn't tell nobody until New Year's. And so New Year's we called the church in, told her mom and her dad you know, this is what the deal is. And so that was 19,. I'm sorry, that was 2013. And then she had a double mastectomy in May because David Wade preached that Sunday. Well, we went in for that. She had a double mastectomy in May and then Brennan was born, june.
Speaker 1:She continued the pregnancy and that was her choice. I felt like if we wouldn't have continued the pregnancy and that was her choice.
Speaker 2:I felt like if we wouldn't have continued the pregnancy, probably could have hit her with some stronger chemo, but you know, had to have the chemo, worried about the baby. In fact, when she had the double mastectomy they had to have a NICU team and at the same time, just in case something happened to the child, you know they could address it at that point. Man, it was man. I don't wish that on nobody. So she makes it out. We go through Brenda's born she's doing so good. And then September, labor Day, we're having a cookout at the house. Man, her nose starts bleeding. I'm like what is going on? And we go back and they tell us that it has spread and life expectancy a year. And we go through that man and actually one of the chemo drugs you see on TV. Now that is a standard to fight it.
Speaker 2:She was going to be in the clinical trial, but her numbers didn't come out good. I'll never forget that was in May. We're going to hit the clinical trial. It's like the clinical trial may give us five years, so we're like okay. You know, and by that time it'd be another one, by that time it'd be another one, and she couldn't do the clinical trial. And I remember going to the doctor's office where he started to go down that road about hospice and I said, no, we're not going to have that conversation you know, not in front of her.
Speaker 2:I said, well, we'll do, because the baby's birthday is coming up. I said, so, we're not going to do that, man, I'm just distraught. And so we have Brenda's birthday on June the 8th. She makes it. She told me that she had told the Lord that she wanted to see the first year birthday, and she made me promise her that she wouldn't die in the hospital. She would die in her house, not in the hospital bed, in our bed. And so, man, I moved from May. I just stopped preaching, and I think that was an issue too at Greater Grace. You know, because I stopped preaching, I transitioned from being a pastor to being a husband a caregiver, and so I'm there all of May, all of June, we get through Brenda's birthday.
Speaker 2:I'll never forget June 29th is my grandmother's birthday that she died on. It's my pastor's anniversary. Choo-choo is there supposed to be getting ready to preach. And I remember it was like that year I preached at the congressman in St Louis and I was supposed to preach in St Louis with A Louis Patterson for late night and I called and told him I wasn't going to make it. And Keisha heard me say it and she said no, you need to go, because that's your only strength, go preach.
Speaker 2:And I went and preached, choo-choo rolled with me back and we got back to Nashville that Friday, saturday she was turning, so you know, people came to see her and then that night it was just us and I'm holding her in my hand and she's like and I'll never forget, forget, bishop Walker told me, when you tell her you, good, she's going to leave. And, man, I know she was struggling to breathe at night and I just grabbed her. I said, keisha, we're going to be okay, I'm going to be okay. And I went to the bathroom, you know, cried a little bit, you know, in that house, man, and I came back in and I lay back in the bed with a man about about 4, 35, you know. Her weight got heavy on me and I leaned over.
Speaker 1:She was gone, man and uh yeah, somebody that's going through a similar event. What are the things that you advised them to help go through something like that? If anything, man, you just got to um help go through something like that.
Speaker 2:If anything, man, you just got to. You got to. You know, we preach it and we tell people. You know when you go through the valley of shadow that the Lord is with you. But you know, I think my thing with people would be that there's just there's no book on this.
Speaker 1:There's no magic pill, no man. No, there's no. Here's what you on this. There's no magic pill, no man?
Speaker 2:No, there's no. Here's what you do, here's seven ways. No, man, I mean, I failed so many times, you know, even raising the boys, you know, and then people saying, you know, and we'll talk about your queen and how I met her, but it's just hard, man, I mean, you know, cause I'm, you and I, of that generation where you preach, they die. You keep preaching. You don't abandon that poor people, yeah, yeah. Uh in season and out of season.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um and so, but the church and I'm I'm going on a sabbatical. Let's turn for a second, they will breathe, we'll come back there, that needs to breathe. Let's turn for a second there, we'll breathe, we'll come back there. That needs to breathe. Um, just the church, some of these unhealthy practices that we have as it relates to mental health, as it relates to pastors, um, your church doing this incredible growth, you need time to raise your sons, to care for your wife, and I don't think there was maybe ill intentions to this reality, but there's not. There's not this ability to stabilize and be for you what you have been for people for now, for what? 16 years? 16 years for people to step in financially, emotionally, socially, spiritually, and you would think they would, and you would think they would. Is that par for the course and we should accept it as pastors.
Speaker 2:No, we shouldn't accept it. I think what you're doing with this retreat, I just think, man, you know, and I'm preaching through the Gospel of Mark right now and I'm in chapter two, finally, and I'm dealing with the whole piece of last, the sermon I preached was old wine, new wine, scans, and then the sermon coming up that I'm working on is well, you know, they get upset about him being the Lord. You know he says I'm the Lord of the Sabbath. You know, do you work on the Sabbath?
Speaker 2:And I said make it reference in that passage to say that there's a whole lot of things. We were born and raised as young preachers and taught as young preachers that if we embrace that we sacrifice, we do that at the cost and sacrifice of our own life and our own happiness and our own mental stability and in some cases, our own financial stability. To be that past, I mean man I had members say when I left and went to Mount Gilead now, remember I'm in the same city Greta Grace address is 901 Delbrook. Mount Gillard's address is 901 Ackland, just change the name of the street, you're still 901, right? I had members come to me and say stuff like you abandoned us, mm-hmm. You know you treat us like like we feel like orphans and man. That's just a culture, I think, in black church that just expects us to be like those old heads.
Speaker 1:Well, jesus said bear your cross. You knew when you signed up for this that you know this is a life calling. Foxes have holes, birds are there as nests, some men have where to lay his head. Why should you get all these luxuries? I mean you get an annual day. Your name is on the building. People always applaud when they say your name. I mean all these perks. I mean why couldn't you just suck it up?
Speaker 2:And does the president of a company suck it up? Does the president of a company, does a plumber suck it up? I mean, you know, and I think it's I used to say this years ago man, erroneous interpretation leads to bad application, and I just think we grew up in a church that just had bad application and interpretation of the text. You know, for like, for us, like I know, like, if you preach it now, 2000s and 2020 and all that historical context is you know, and understanding the social movements of the text is something they do now, but we weren't brought up in that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean let's talk specifics and some specificity to it Boundaries, sabbaths, teaching delegation. You talked about teaching the word of God, application interpretation. You know, if you look at the life of Jesus, if you look at the life of Paul, I mean, before Paul starts a church he's three years in isolation.
Speaker 2:Moses is 40 years in isolation.
Speaker 1:Jesus who would leer away from the crowd? Years in isolation. Moses is 40 years in isolation. Jesus who would leer away from the crowd and go to desolate places to pray, consistently finding himself in isolation. We hear the running joke of how bad pastor kids are. If she's a pastor's daughter, you know she's hot.
Speaker 1:It's just know she's hot, it's just gonna be hot and loose and all of those things is not. There's no, there's a lack of intellect to say well, why is that the case? What is, what is the pressure, what is the pinpoints, what are the determining factors? Um, if you will, that's that's causing these social outcomes, and we do that in every scope of life, for everything except for the church, and specifically for pastors and their families. How do we break that cycle?
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, I am, and I just referenced in that Mark 2 piece for me. You know, I talked the other week. Well, when I preached the other week about the new wineskin, I told him, man, I struggle in my tradition Like man. I struggle with, you know, the bar stool, bar top tables that they use. Now, you know, skirted, I struggle with an iPad up there because I'm traditionalist when it comes to some things You're talking about preaching when people are up there and they have just a hoodie, hoodies and suits?
Speaker 1:you know? No, you know.
Speaker 2:Or those who wear ties and all that. You know it's so. You know you could be in an airplane and tell what name brand it is. You know we just. Yeah, gucci, yeah, it's all over.
Speaker 1:You could be in an airplane and tell what name brand it is.
Speaker 2:You know, we just just Gucci, yeah, yeah, so man, I, um, but I said that to say I'm learning now where I'm. I feel like I am becoming that church. I know that's weird, that church, that what we, the church that holds us to this standard, just like you know what I'm saying? No, I don't.
Speaker 1:What are you saying so the?
Speaker 2:very people that I felt like should have been there for me and they felt like you're the pastor. You should be there and you're the pastor. Fox self-holds person. Take up a cross for all of them.
Speaker 1:Fox Airpods, you know take them across the whole heaven.
Speaker 2:Now I feel like I'm the one putting that conservative thought on the younger crowd, telling them to be more straight and narrow.
Speaker 1:Get behind the podium, yeah.
Speaker 2:Get your Bible. Get your Bible in your hand. Hold your Bible in your hand. Don't be pulling out iPads. Yeah, put a Bible out. Another bonded Bible yeah, yeah, yeah, get that old school Bible.
Speaker 1:Don't let it be too fresh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, make sure you're reading it Right, right, right, so you know, man, take them Jordans off and take them.
Speaker 2:Amaxes off, you know man, take them Timblins off, take that hoodie off. And I'm finding out now, man, as the older I get and I'm man, this would be a whole nother conversation for me, and maybe something even in our cohort with the brothers to discuss. Man, I am struggling now because I feel like and I felt this somewhat, you know, when I preached the sermon last night or the night for you, man, there's a church evolving now that is not the hoop, not the suit, not the tie, and I'm struggling with that Because if you look on social media, the churches that are growing and progressive, popular, Popular, have that contemporary approach, and then, like I can name, you know the churches that are the big quest there. You know, when you go into the, you know the new Psalm is, you know what is First Baptist Garden? Yeah, glendora, yeah, you know those type churches, you know. So, yeah, man, I mean, that's not what we're talking about. No, no, no, that's what we're talking about. No, no, no, that's what we're talking about.
Speaker 1:So trying to find that delicate balance.
Speaker 2:It is.
Speaker 1:And trying to understand, like, yeah, there are things that are precious. And then our age is the weird age where you're too young to be old and too old to be young.
Speaker 2:That's where we are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you are pulling from these precious memories of the past and this desire to usher in a new regime that's sensitive and able to communicate with the different aspects of what is troubling these upcoming generation. And so when you hear anxiety and depression and it's like, yeah, you want anxiety and depression, I can show you anxiety and depression.
Speaker 2:Let me take you back to the days when you know, yeah, yeah, I mean even in the church rebuke that devil, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I watched a new show I watch regularly and he, he had his last spin. He doesn't look. You know a commentation at the end, and it was on the fact that you know these young people, you want to, we, we, we pacified everybody. Everything is a disease, you know so if you this, you got, you got social anxiety disorder.
Speaker 1:You don't have this, you got this disorder this disorder and, at the end of the day, all of us are on the Right, right, right, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. But there is some real nuances to that, there's some real realities to that. That demands empathy One of the things we talked about and what this podcast is trying to be about of being empathetic to the fact that I'm not growing up in a fight and somebody got the best of me in a fight. The people knew that was in my class, maybe the school, but now you can go viral.
Speaker 2:Viral, yeah, and everybody can see it. And everybody can see it and know it.
Speaker 1:You used to compete with the cutest girl, the ladies would compete with the cutest girls or the guys would compete with the coolest. Now you're competing, because of social media, not just with the people in your immediate peer circle, but you know the hottest person on YouTube, the hottest person on social media, be it TikTok or Instagram or Facebook, and so it becomes such more complicated. It's different, and then every generation felt that about the previous generation Like you know, just toughen up, you haven't been through.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we, every generation, felt that about the previous generation. Like you know, there's something up.
Speaker 2:You haven't been through. Yeah, and we have a new generation and I hear that all the time when I'm preaching. You know, Jaquita's 15 years younger than me. Oh, wow, oh, okay, yeah. So the second wife, the second wife is 15 years younger than me. The first wife was one year younger than me. Okay, is 15 years younger than me. The first writer was one year younger than me.
Speaker 2:But anyway, even with Jaquita, man, my piece with her is she is teaching me. I mean, she is teaching me. When I say teaching me, man, bro, she is teaching me. You know, because I preach and say stuff. You know, I remember when or I make statements that confirm or affirm my generation and she reminds me all the time. Hey, you got me sitting here. So all of a sudden, I was using an illustration about you know, and I used Parliament and Confunction, and she was like she said that was good, but you lost us. And I just think we do have that. I think we just got a group. I think we live in a time where every generation and I've been there, and now I'm feeling that because I'm like man, I remember the church where I remember, when drums was just in the Pentecostal church Baptists wouldn't do drums.
Speaker 1:Drums, you only did organ.
Speaker 2:You only did organ and piano.
Speaker 1:You wouldn't have no keyboard.
Speaker 2:Certain songs they wouldn't sing, yeah, and so I think I'm coming to the point like first Sundays for me is going to always be that I'm young enough, I'm old enough to remember women were in our church.
Speaker 1:Women can wear pants, yeah.
Speaker 2:I know some churches right now that's still on that order. You know, women not in a men in a pulpit, you know, yeah. So I mean, and when we was talking today, I was on a call with the staff today and they was getting ready for church and it's like, well, you know, we found these t-shirts, you know, for the greeters and for the ushers.
Speaker 2:I was like t-shirts for the greeters, t-shirts man, they can't put on the old white nurse looking like thing and usher, and that you know, but yeah you remember that ain't no nurses, no more.
Speaker 1:They just called, you know, white nurse looking like thing and usher in that you know, but yeah, nurses, yeah yeah, you remember that Ain't no nurses, no more.
Speaker 2:They just called 911.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I grew up in that church where they shout and fall out. You remember that? Yeah, they have man they didn't call no ambulance.
Speaker 2:They go get that sock, put them back, keep going the whole church.
Speaker 1:They be packing on peppermints too, doc Nurses. Yep, yep, yep, you're right, you're right. No, I think that's an important conversation to have in the interface and I think if, once we get to the convention, I think that's where the convention lost its savor, and I think we live over an illusion that the convention ever had a savior, a savor to, a sweetness to it, a relevance to it. When I study the convention now and I've been studying it my diagnosis is that the convention never had any relevance. It's just that it was more popular and during its popularity it never established certain things such as criteria for leadership, doctrinal lines of demarcation and obviously and no intelligent person can argue this who may be watching this? Economically just highway robbery. And so we may want to bash the one person that we know that held that position, that got in trouble. But if everybody was investigated, they'll probably be in the.
Speaker 2:They'll have some shackles on them as well as the very least. Let me say this You're going to an area that's sensitive for me, because I served as chairman of the board for the convention and the youngest serving chairman, yeah you're 50.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, and that's young. And that's young in the convention, that's young. You're a young preacher. What's your turn? I think I was.
Speaker 2:Let me see, I've been at two years. I was 49 when they first called me and now I'm 50. Now I've done it two years and, man, I'll just be honest with you, man, just man, you know, because a lot of guys are looking to me now and saying, well, you chair the board, how you doing, brother Chairman, and I'm like man, the convention is structured like the church, you know, the pastor or the president runs the convention. And but one of the things I'm concerned about and this is not applying to NBC USA where I serve as chair conventions as a whole, denominations as a whole I think one of the things Kojic's have taken a forward step is Drew. I think that you know he's not old, but he's not young.
Speaker 1:Just say the whole name of what you mean by it Drew Shearer. Bishop Shearer, that's the president of the Church of God and Christ.
Speaker 2:The Church of God and Christ Embraces a lot of stuff. You know. He's got Kiara, he's got Karen. You know and you're seeing this. His wife and his daughter who are popular singers, the Clark sisters.
Speaker 1:But here's the thing, though he is building on a firm foundation. He is and the things that I'm saying the convention has never done church and God and Christ, even though there may be, even if you talk to some of them, I imagine they will have their own frustrations and criticisms and critiques of it. The foundation is so firm historically that someone can easily slide in and be creative and as we are in the midst of an election here, and probably by the time this air, it may be over. It may not be over. Whoever wins is going on an uphill journey.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter how talented and how gifted, and how much resources they can bring.
Speaker 1:It is still going to be an uphill journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's an uphill. I was going to say unless there's no, unless it's an uphill journey, regardless of what ships the new president will try to take or what turns he'll try to take. I mean, you're looking at something that, in principle and in its practices, is still standing on a tradition that is 140, 150 years old.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I go there and I feel like sometimes I went into a time machine. Yeah, yeah, but you're the chair. I don't want to put you in an awkward position and go too much on that. I will say this, and I want to transition back to where we held off earlier and your second wife in that season, and you know this. This is not the rehash pain, but there's so many people benefit from going through those things Again.
Speaker 1:The church and as we talk about the church and as we talk about nuances and realities of the church and how we can improve, chose to save the world and to usher the world into salvation for those that are lost Under that premise and under that knowledge. I just want people that are listening to know that when we say the things that we're saying, we're saying it as a lover of the church, lovers of the convention, to be quite frank, and so I don't want anybody to listen to this and think that we, on our tight trippet, we're not on that. We're not on that. You know the church is whack and all this other stuff and and um.
Speaker 1:And that's not to demean him either.
Speaker 1:Uh, because he has his own experiences his own reasons for saying that yeah and and I yet know not what those are, but what I will say, I'm very clear of, with everything that I, that you and I and I think you agree with this that will say about our experiences that has been hurtful, about the strains, about the stresses. Hurtful about the strains, about the stresses, about the weaknesses, about the flaws. The best thing that ever happened to us, it's the church, and I would dare say the best thing that ever happened to the world. Yeah, it's the church, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But back to that social. But we live in a time where social media has allowed people to say whatever they want to say. We may have thought that about the church, but we never would have said it publicly. And even when you go to the convention, we may have thought that the convention was dated or irrelevant, but we, we never put that stuff out. And now these younger preachers are just like you know, just.
Speaker 1:What's the issue of infrastructure?
Speaker 2:It's the issue of the invisible.
Speaker 1:You talked about the popular churches that's on social media, the guy with the hoodie and the vest on. These are the popular churches, but if you dig into the infrastructure of them, a lot of them are personality driven, not all. And so if you take away that personality, if you take away those what I would say shallow dimensions that attract people and you tear that away, you're not going to find the level of stability and longevity I think all churches are personality driven, pastoral personality driven.
Speaker 2:I think in this time I think finding people who go with so many startups now and it is so many startups that it's hard to find people to just say my grandmama went to First Baptist, my great-grandma went to First Baptist.
Speaker 1:They done left Absolutely and they down the street at River Life.
Speaker 2:I'm just making up a name. But they at River Life, they done left First Baptist River and they down at street at River Life. You know, I'm just making up a name, but they at River Life, they done left First Baptist River and they down at River Life. Now you know. And so, yeah, I certainly agree with you there.
Speaker 1:No, no, and I think about you're right, and I think about this all the time in these quiet, introspective conversations with myself how every governmental structure of church has a flaw to it and what you're talking about is true. However, we want to present ourselves. Most people that attend our churches do it because there are certain personality quirks it's not you know this and certain certain, certain idiosyncrasies about one that attracts them to it. The catch to me is I have to guard my heart and ensure that I'm not doing anything and you're not doing anything, and whoever pastor, bishop, prophet, apostle Joe Blow is not doing anything to accentuate that and or allow that to go to my head and or begin to utilize that for personal gain, be it financially, be it popularity Like, I think, the more you read books on leadership and understand paradigms of leadership and you know methodologies of leadership, I think that's the only safeguard you got, because if you're out here just to be the preacher, who can say it and who can you know?
Speaker 2:holler preach got a good voice. There's nothing to shade that, to keep that.
Speaker 1:Not just that, that. Just that that's tall, that's smooth, that's witty, that's articulate, all of those things. And you think Steve Jobs was behind Apple. However, he structured it in a way that a Tim Cook could come along and take it to the next level.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was going to say that earlier, man, I want them to bring me back. My prayer is that they would bring me back to Mount Gilead to bury me, but I don't want Mount Gilead to bury me. You see what I'm saying, man. I want to do this thing, probably another 10 years, give it all I got you know, and then, man, 62, 60, 62, yeah, man, I'm ready to get on up out of here and just enjoy life, you know, and let the next guy come. Hopefully I've built a church that's solid enough I anticipate I will that the next guy could come and be good to go. But I don't want you know and it's back to what we were talking about a couple of minutes ago that old school is just you die the pastor, man, I don't want to. You know, unless you know, god forbid, something happened. I'm the pastor and you got to bury me in a robe and all that.
Speaker 1:And for the sisters that's watching the next person that could come. God forbid something happens.
Speaker 2:I'm the pastor and you've got to bury me in a robe and all that. And for the sisters, that's watching the next person that comes behind you, next person, next person, yeah, next person, whether male or female, I'm very inclusive in terms of do I believe God has called women to preach?
Speaker 1:No, I know you are. I'm not even dealing if it is or if one is or is one not. I'm just saying and I hope.
Speaker 2:we have built a church, you know, that understands to hear, how to hear the voice of God. But the point I was making was yeah, man, I want to roll up out of here. Don't you to roll up out of here, Don't you? You know, I see he wants to, you want to you want to be 80 and 90 years old.
Speaker 1:No, I'm with you. I don't even know the scriptures. I'm just up there talking, they talking about how well don't preach today, Trust me I can retire tomorrow, I would, I'm there too my my only only. I'm there too. My, my only only. I'm with you. 60, 62, all the way. No, no, a hundred percent, like financially. I'm building myself that this podcast is because a lot of people say that, but they don't have no other they're not doing anything else.
Speaker 2:So you say, that's what me and my wife talk.
Speaker 1:We're not wired to just sit around and do nothing. You don't either, just take another church.
Speaker 2:So you got to have something that's already done I'm not yet. You got to have passion.
Speaker 1:So for me, I want to be able to do, you know, 25, 25, 25. I've thought through this Great. I want to do nothing for 25% of the time. I want to preach 25% of the time. I want to consult 25% of the time. I want to write 25 through this greatly. My only hesitation when I hear questions like that in your statement, is this boss that we work for?
Speaker 2:Man. Let me say this I hired Kenneth Dupree is now serving as my Director of Vision Execution. He's passed 30-something years and he retired. So a couple of months ago one of the oldest members in my church, ms Michelle, died. She was my fifth grade teacher. She was 94 when she died. I think she might have been 96. But anyway, he gets up to give his remarks. He said Ms Michelle says I didn't know preachers could retire. And I say that to say I think my boss, the Lord Jesus Christ, has gifted me, especially you, but I think you're gifted too me, especially you. I think you're gifted to that. Maybe that's that old school coming out of us, that preaching is not the only way God can use me in the years to come and that I can use that. You said 25, I was sitting up there thinking, man, let me find my 20, 20, 20, 20% what I want to do.
Speaker 1:No, and so I think what I would say is, if I did stay on past 62, I would want it to be structured. I don't want it to. Hopefully it would be structured in a way that I would be more of an overseer type role and that it would be in a church structure and government that is able to not have a personality-centered component. And then I think what we don't talk about enough is the financial aspect of it. Yeah, and making sure that the church is stable enough. A lot of the you know there's a wave of people pastors are saying I'm retiring and then they're still on, they're still on, they're still on salary, sometimes 50, sometimes 100 percent. Yeah, and then is is lying in there that their wife gets it even after that. And how do you build a church? I'm not doing that, so I but the order to do that. There's things that I need to be doing now to make sure that the church is in a position that if they wanted to do an annual day for me or support.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would like that to reflect on me the 401k or 403b as we call it for us that's being put aside, that we're maximizing our iris, yeah, uh, that we're having controlling rights and copyrights of our intellectual property. This is a company.
Speaker 2:This is this is I'm going to that right now her presentation.
Speaker 1:this is not mount sinai. This content is mine, so everything you say I own, own as curator and creator of this podcast, and so that type of conversations we're still not having in the African American pastor circle, however. And then the other thing that we don't talk about is that we live, sometimes, a lavish lifestyle that's hard to turn away from. Yeah, from the Taylor suits to the foreign cars, to the watches I don't look down on none of that. That's great if it's in your means and your mechanisms, but, just like athletes, when that goes away, yeah, how are you affording that lifestyle? And should you be making sacrifices now that you can maybe do that later? And is that? Is that really your desire? Like I, rather, I rather wear the same shoes and go to south france I like people like man.
Speaker 2:You just don't order, you don't go shopping a lot, and I'd be like when I'm out with you know, with the preachers at the convention, and they do it. Now it's like man. I think I do a suit every two years or something like that. You know, because my deal is man. I love, you know, I love when my family's in Cancun.
Speaker 1:Go to the Laker game. Yeah, we do that. Yeah, we get around the game. Let's hit this favorite game. We're in Memphis.
Speaker 2:We're in Memphis On the water yeah yeah, and do that, and that's why I was telling a preacher that was the other night. We were talking about shopping, right, and I was like man, I don't dress conservative to say, you know, I'm with the.
Speaker 1:CAW Clarks and you know in that genre TH Jemison, tj Jemison.
Speaker 2:You know that old school. I said I do it because that's just other things I'd rather do with my money that are more meaningful to me.
Speaker 1:I have a car that's nice, very expensive car.
Speaker 2:Yes, you do, yes, you do. I don't want it anymore. I don't want it anymore.
Speaker 1:You get one every year, but keep going. But that's going to stop it, or unless I'm going to find a way to leverage it to generate income. Yeah, no, because you know what. The return on investment is Zero. You get in the car saying man this is a nice car.
Speaker 2:That's my thing.
Speaker 1:You know it's like what Jesus says when you pray. You know, go in your secret, closet those who go. Everybody say, look at him praying.
Speaker 2:That's your reward right there, and so those conversations we don't have, so if you know, if we're having those. Let me say this to you, man when I got to, my first car was a Cadillac, but when I got to Greater Grace, I remember that when I bought my first Mercedes. I remember that when I bought my first Mercedes, it was when the bubble ass first. No, it was when the you got a Mercedes, hat on it's 450, I do, but it's just for it's the hat I got.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I got you, and I remember that, and I remember. So I was like, let Greta Grace 96, 97. So I'm driving a Benz 98. And I've had one every year. At one point in my family I had the GL, the S, you know. And man, it just came a point I got a, I drive a Navigator. Now my wife still drives a foreign car but it was just a point where I was just like you know what, I could go get it, and I was like, man, do I go spend that money? Yeah, that's.
Speaker 1:Moser's book, the Psychology of Money Rich Dad, poor Dad, oh yeah, yeah, these books Understanding OPM how to Use Other People's Money, leveraging Debt. In a way, you can't do that, even if you're making good money, if you're utilizing that money on things that don't depreciate and value, that doesn't actually create things. And so, like I said, this space is meant to be a space that allows have the type of conversation, not just have those comic type of conversations, but to model the fact that, hey, yes, just have a podcast, you can own a company that does other things in the area of media.
Speaker 2:I'm going to take this. We're trying to put one together, but I mean, wow, wow, it's an interesting piece and you got to agree with this. We done messed up this next generation. Oh man, all they thinking about is Bima Benz. Social media. Social media, gucci.
Speaker 1:Louis, all our brands. Some of them even named themselves after these foreign brands that don't like us culturally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's always interesting to hear the militant social justice black preacher wearing, though, but they have on their coochie and their Louis and they're wearing white supremacy as they speak against white supremacy, or they drove up here in that which is funded through white supremacy.
Speaker 2:Right, right, right, right, yep, yep.
Speaker 1:It gives. The fact that most of them lack programming that does things that curate justice, tell us about the season of grief and entering back into the dating game and ultimately remarrying remarrying.
Speaker 2:So you know, Keisha's gone and I'm raising these kids, and how long were you in deep grief, mourning and grief.
Speaker 1:I know it's still, I think sometimes I'm still in it, you're still in it.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying the deep, the heart of it, man, and I value Jaquita because she gives me my space when I'm having those moments. She knows those dates April 21st is Keisha's birthday. June 29th is when she died. December 25th Christmas would have been my wedding anniversary. But I struggled because, man, I didn't want people. Of course, girls were coming, ladies were coming, but trying to raise these two boys. And what stuck out with Jaquita? Man, she wasn't church and I met her at a church convention. Well, I was at Opera Land Hotel. She was working in the registration because Derrick Jackson is her goddad, who's over the executive director for the publishing board.
Speaker 1:So when she walks by, I'm like you know a lot of people these names. You just be dropping them. They be like god, I know him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go ahead, my apologies, I'm going to finish my. I'm going to try to finish my statement. It's your podcast. You did say you're the curator. Yeah, creator and curator. It's your podcast. You did say you're the curator yeah, yeah, yeah, creator and curator.
Speaker 2:So, but anyway, because the time is about up, so let me just say this man, so I see her, we go out and date, we go out on a date. Doc, she is anti-Brianna Smith and it was like an ego thing for me, like, do you know who I am? Yeah, yeah, I'm Breonna Smith. You know, I preach everywhere, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Man, sure do. We went out and I'll tell you what changed it for me. I'll never forget this Two things. I met her in November of 2015, going into two years of Keisha being deceased. I'm going Christmas shopping and I can't do it. And she texted me hey, where you at? I said I'm going Christmas shopping. She said I'll go with you and I was like, well, nah, I'm going to do it my way. She said, nah, nothing like that, let me just go with you. I'm trying to get clothes for and pick out stuff for the kids. Man, and that grief said and man, I don't know how the Holy Spirit led her and I do believe what's the Holy Spirit but, man, she just slid and said hey, Brennan, going like this. You know, I think BJ will like this, let's just get this, they'll forget it. And she made that Christmas and actually everything she chose they liked, and she never took the credit. You know they're like Dad, because you know she wasn't around. You know I didn't bring her in front of my kids, I didn't do all that kind of stuff. Well, man, it's 2014, 15.
Speaker 2:I meet her at the end, 2016, valentine's Day. Man, they say the second year hurts. Man, the first year hurts, but the second year of death is brutal. I'm at Valentine's Day, I preach. It's on a Sunday. I come back home, I move, I'm in an apartment. We'm at Valentine's Day, I preach. It's on a Sunday. I come back home, I move, I'm in an apartment, we're in a condo and I'm sitting in the condo, man Lights off.
Speaker 2:Valentine's Day, me, bj and Brennan. And I'm just sitting there, like you know, I ain't got nobody to invite me. And, man, she knocked on the door. She said can I come? I got something for you. And I was like, yeah, you know, because I'm, you know, I'm like man, I ain't trying to. You know, I ain't falling in love. She came in, she gave brennan a I remember forget she gave brennan a basket for valentine's day. It was a, uh, mickey mouse a thing. She gave, gave BJ something. And then she gave me something. She handed it to me and turned around and left, and when she got to the door I said let me cook her something. And it was at that moment when I saw that she could she wasn't barging in, you know and she did it, man. And then when I found out, you know, she was 15 years younger than me I was going to have to work out and buy Pelotons.
Speaker 1:Pelotons and stuff like that yeah, and stay in shape and stay young and stay healthy and stay baby watch yourself.
Speaker 2:You know that's real, but she was there for me, yeah she was there for you dating, you talking about the dating. I didn't do it that long, but dating, and in that season, dating, you're talking about the dating, not me. No, no dating, because I didn't do it that long, but you still do it.
Speaker 1:No, but dating, and in that season, the space, the giftedness, the things of that nature, what other things do you think gave you the courage to love again? I was lonely, you was lonely.
Speaker 2:Lonely and, and I, you know, I, it might sound Freudian, but love is what we look for Human acceptance, you know, and I needed that. And then, you know, being a preacher, you, you, you know, I didn't want to be out here, like you know, one of my friends, you know, I didn't want to be out here, you know, just, you know, single, keep going, you know, I, you know, and I, you know, I just said I would not do that, you know, and so I had to settle down quick. But let me say this, and Nashville culture is different, Like you know, walker, I think what he do, three years, I don't know, it may have been- three, four years, for him too.
Speaker 1:When you say I don't know these people, but you know, because you know everybody and you're big like that. But I just want to just remind you, when you said I'm not, I'm not sure, so three years and he remarried you, have you had a circle, circle?
Speaker 2:a social circle, circle, circle circle of people in Nashville that didn't stay single long Right For various reasons, gotcha. But it was you know. But I didn't you know. And the good part, I didn't. I didn't marriage a queen until after, you know I was. Let's see 15, 16. Mount Gillick calls me. We're just really starting to date. I'm still passing Mount Gilead single as a widow, though, as a widow.
Speaker 2:I'm passing Mount Gilead as a widow. Jaquita's coming, but she's not. You know I'm not public. You know that I'm dating anything until you know. I proposed to her in. You know that I'm dating anything Until you know. I proposed to her in November of 17,. Then we got married August of 18.
Speaker 1:During the dating process. You never introduced her as my significant other, but she came to church but left. Mm-hmm Got you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, because I didn't. I wanted her to love Brianna's Mm-hmm and I didn't want a woman to love me for status or all that kind of stuff, and I didn't want the church to feel like this is it? What if it didn't work? What if it didn't work out? Now I'm looking at somebody else and now they're like well, I loved her, don't bring nobody else around us. So it was cool. Don't bring nobody else around us. You know. So it was cool and you know a lot of my family and Jaquita's Feminosis. I'll never forget, man 2017, I proposed.
Speaker 2:So I got Thanksgiving at my house the next week, man, so I've got Keisha's family coming. I've invited Jaquita's family and my family and I'm like ugh, and Keisha's mama did it for me. We're getting around to pray and I'm trying to introduce people, you know, and I'm trying to introduce Jaquita to everybody. And Keisha's mom, karen, said something to the pup like Brita, I'm fine, bless the food. And at that point it was like for everybody else, who's not, doesn't matter. So she's been good. I'm working on a sermon right now and I'm talking about with Jaquita. She is helping me not to become stuck in my ways, because there are other ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what? What kind of?
Speaker 2:preacher, are you what you mean by that Cause? You know when you ask questions. You remember my Hooper?
Speaker 1:Yes, how would you, if I was a alien and I came and you say I'm a preacher, then how would you describe yourself?
Speaker 2:was an alien. And I came and you say I'm a preacher, then how would you describe yourself? I would describe myself as an I would say an expository preacher.
Speaker 1:What does expository?
Speaker 2:preacher mean to you Verse by verse. You know, stickler for the historical setting, stickler for that. But you know the last 10 or 15 years.
Speaker 1:Huey Preacher. That's kind of boring too. Oh yeah, yeah, bro, I'm talking about preaching. That's like falling in love, you know yeah.
Speaker 2:Get to the Bible, oh man, yeah get to the general life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Talk about oh preaching, yeah, okay, that's how he is yeah, ladies and gentlemen, don't cut that out.
Speaker 1:That needs to stay in.
Speaker 2:Thank you, so are we going to cut off dating life.
Speaker 1:No, nothing's being cut, especially you yarning about preaching. No, seriously, I would say I'm— To all those that invite him and the many places and conferences. I just want y'all to see what we're dealing with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I preached last night at an individual's church and I really preached, yes, you did, and then that individual, you know, tried to keep me out and you know I'm old, I like to go in. Yeah, man, I got you in yeah. I got you in before four. I was in that room by 12. No, but seriously Expository.
Speaker 2:I think I'm expository, but I am falling in love with narrative preaching now, Just sort of we did in the cohort, just telling the story. I struggle, trying to get these points. You know, and sometimes Kenyatta Gibb has said that in our class. You remember he said that that you don't have to have points. Right, and I'm learning. But I think my church is so caught up on what's point one, what's point two, what is one point or five points. But I would just say I'm a preacher who takes seriously the craft and I know that's going to sound weird because people consider preaching spiritual, it's a spiritual task the craft and I know that's going to sound weird because people consider preaching spiritual, it's a spiritual task but the craft of putting together sermons and using sermons to lead people to do something.
Speaker 1:What preachers impacted you the most in your ministry?
Speaker 2:Tim Glenn obviously. Stephen Thurston would be another one. Ralph West obviously has impacted. Those would be my top three. And then I would say, in terms of just putting together sermons, I'd give you two. It would be David Fleer man. And I need to say this, I know we're getting it down in time, but when Keisha died and I went back to finish my master's, my preaching professor was David Fleer. He's wrote a lot of books. Where did you get your master's? Lipscomb University, nashville. And he revolutionized my preaching. Like he was going through a season of losing his son I've lost my wife and he revolutionized. I still have a servant. I had to live in that class but he revolutionized my preaching. A servant I had to live with in that class but he revolutionized my preaching. So I'll say by him and then Joe Gregory. I was saying last year reading the works Exodus, preaching has really impacted me in terms of how that's it. I mean everybody else I listen to, but I don't think they who do you like to listen to?
Speaker 1:Who do you just like I like listening in terms of?
Speaker 2:peers. I like to listen to Tolan. I like Tolan Morgan Morgan. I love to listen to believe it or not. Brandon Jacobs.
Speaker 1:I like to listen to Mark Moore.
Speaker 2:Okay, uh, phillip Porter, uh, philip Porter, he would be another one who do you not like?
Speaker 1:I'm just playing our time is up as it relates to your concerns, if it will, about preaching. What would you say that would be?
Speaker 2:Preachers knowing their own voice, owning their own voice. Now, when you go on social media, that rhythm preacher, everybody sounds the same and sometimes you have to listen to it. You know like there's certain preachers you can put on on and in the first 10 seconds you know who it is. So when you say rhythm preaching, what do you mean? Like that, how they move so quick in preaching. Now you know that quick rhythm preaching, you know, and they come out and they go back and they pick it up again. It's the way the preachers preach. Now you know, and I, yeah, I enjoy it.
Speaker 2:But I think my thing is is I just want this generation of preachers to find them and find their style. And you know, last night when I preached, or when I preach on Sunday, my style just works for me, and what I have to hold the mic or the mics on, there was a high bar table back at the beginning there, or whether it's a high bar table back at the beginning there or whether it's a hoodie. And that I'm just at a point. That just let me be true to the text, and none of that can eliminate me being my authentic self. Who's affected? You pastoring, michael Lee Graves and Curtis Goodwin. Both of them are deceased. Bishop Grace passed the Temple Church in Nashville so he really mentored me. When I started Greater Grace, he was hands-on with that. In fact, greater Grace Temple Community Church was named Temple because we were birthed out of a temple church, so yeah, your go-to?
Speaker 1:we're wrapping up. Thank you for your time. Appreciate it, Really appreciate it. What's your go-to food spot in Nashville?
Speaker 2:My go-to food spot in Nashville. My wife would probably say Char. And what's Char? It's a nice upscale restaurant in Green Hills. Of course it is. Yeah, this guy right here, I don't know what you like Burger King, chick-fil-a. Hey man, waffle House. Cracker Barrel, hey we went to the Waffle House the other night, me and my wife yeah man, we was coming home and I was like she's like. You know what do you want to eat? I was like you know what she's like what.
Speaker 1:Let me go over there and show this Waffle House. If I lived in the city of Waffle House, they wouldn't know me by name, I wouldn't have to order. I was in Greensboro three days doing revival and by the third day they was hey, Chuck, what's up, man?
Speaker 2:Yeah, got your grits ready, See y'all next year Natural's coming up in food food. So it's two men in the night yeah now.
Speaker 1:Yeah now. This feels great in food. Man well, you are an amazing preacher. Thank you, george, you're an amazing pastor and we're grateful to know you amidst of so many people that you know and all the things that you do. Yeah, yeah, for the kingdom. We're looking forward to deepening this fellowship and conversation as we work on our different dissertations and we got ideas and thoughts about that Tell us where people can find the church find you?
Speaker 2:They can find me in Nashville at Mount Gilead Baptist Church, 4004 Lebanon, pike Hermitage, tennessee, 37076. Online mgileettchurchorg. Or my personal site, breonna Smichel. B-r-e-o-n-u-s-smichelorg, youtube, facebook. All that stuff is Breonna's. What's the?
Speaker 1:meaning of your name, Breonna.
Speaker 2:I don't know, never knew that.
Speaker 1:Okay, just something.
Speaker 2:I'm sure you can find it out. No, no, no. It's so full of wisdom I mean I'm sure, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:All right. Thank you so much for tuning in to Nuance Conversations, where we aim to be intelligent, empathetic, to listen and to, at the same time, make sure that we're being transparent. Make sure you check us out on all of our digital platforms and look out for our next episode next week, as we continue our pursuit to have conversations that are nuanced.