Nuanced Conversations Podcast
Welcome to Nuanced Conversations Podcast, where we dive deep into the complex and often overlooked aspects of today's most pressing topics. Each week, we bring you thought-provoking discussions with experts, innovators, and everyday people who offer unique perspectives and insights. Whether we're exploring the intricacies of social issues, science, culture, or personal development, our goal is to move beyond the surface and engage in meaningful dialogue that challenges assumptions and expands understanding. Join us as we navigate the gray areas and uncover the richness that lies in nuanced conversations.
Nuanced Conversations Podcast
The Inspiring Ministry Journey of Dr. George Parks: Faith, Community, and Leadership
Have you ever wondered how a humble beginning can shape a powerful ministry? Join us for a captivating conversation with Dr. George Parks, a revered pastor whose journey from Tennessee and Ohio to influential ministry roles is nothing short of inspiring. At just 14, Dr. Parks felt a profound calling to preach, driven by his admiration for Martin Luther King Jr. We kick things off with a light-hearted debate between two friends and pastors, both named George, before diving into John MacArthur's controversial comments on King's legacy. Through this, we uncover the human complexities of historical figures and the selective application of grace within some evangelical circles.
Dr. Parks' narrative is deeply rooted in the black tradition of storytelling and celebratory preaching. We traverse his rich experiences from his formative years under the mentorship of Jerry Black and Reverend Dr. Maurice Watson, to his educational journey at Vanderbilt Divinity and Howard University. Learn about his strategic balance of celebratory preaching with substantial lessons and the significance of staying connected to local churches. Reflect on his ministry at Meridian Hill Baptist Church and Riverside Missionary Baptist Church, understanding the vital role of relationships and practical ministry in his effective leadership.
Our conversation extends to the complexities of the African-American middle-class church and the evolving dynamics of financial literacy, legacy building, and entrepreneurship within the community. Dr. Parks shares his experiences navigating political and social issues, particularly during election seasons, while emphasizing a balanced, theologically informed approach. We also discuss the eclectic influences shaping his ministry, the importance of celebration and hope in sermons, and the enriching value of diverse perspectives. This episode is a treasure trove of personal stories and critical insights into faith, community, and leadership—don’t miss out!
Good day. Welcome to another episode of Nuance Conversation. This podcast is meant to be transparent, to be open, to be honest and to be empathetic. I am the creator and curator and host of this podcast and I'm with today, one that it would be offensive to call a friend. He's a brother beloved and he has a great first name. His name is Dr George Parks and he is the bad George. I am the good George, despite what he's going to say when he gets his chance to speak. But before we start, we got to swear a man to make sure, because I hear a nuanced conversations. We don't, we don't escape anything we hear. We are open, we're honest, we're transparent, we're empathetic and we're intelligent, and we have the perfect guest for that today. Just go ahead and raise your hand and swear that you will abide by uh, the rules. He's not gonna do it in the group.
Speaker 2:Watch this y'all, I don't know if I'm gonna do that, yeah, yeah, he's gonna bye-bye.
Speaker 1:He swore it in. Ladies and gentlemen, it don't matter what that was good enough. I didn't think we're gonna get that far, uh, because when you get, uh, preachers and pastors of this caliber, they really don't feel that they have to do anything. But just you know, walk in the aura of their greatness will just flow through what up bro, how you feeling today?
Speaker 2:man, I am delighted and thank you for having me on, but for the record, I want the whole world to know that I am the good George. Let the world know.
Speaker 1:I'm happy to be with you. A tree is known by the fruits of the bear, so we'll just leave it just like that. We'll just leave it. We'll just leave it just like that. Tell us a little bit about where you're from, your walk with Christ and, of course, just a summarization of your journey into ministry and pastor.
Speaker 2:Summarize, it's very eclectic Born in Nashville, tennessee, to my parents, they were married. My mom was 18. My dad was 19. I came two years later. We moved from Nashville, tennessee, to Dayton, ohio, from age arm baby to nine. Then we moved to Cleveland Ohio, cleveland Ohio, Cleveland, ohio. My dad a pastor at a church in Dayton in Cleveland and, uh, I confess my hope in Jesus Christ. At five years old you said your dad pastor in Cleveland.
Speaker 1:Ohio and Cleveland Ohio, Same time.
Speaker 2:No, first nine years and Dayton and Cleveland Once we. Once I turned nine, we moved to cleveland, got you and uh now it's my calling to preach. Grew up in cleveland, even while preaching ran track in high school. How old were you when you announced your call to preach? I was 14 years old, 14, 14 years old, uh ran track.
Speaker 1:How was that? Um 14 you're a preacher, you're in high school. Um how was that?
Speaker 2:it was cool, it was great. Uh, I never felt odd, too odd, about there's a difference. People treat you a tad bit different because you wear suits to school I did not wear suits to school, but, uh, I kind of categorized my call.
Speaker 2:There's a book called the irresistible urge by william Myers. I was no ski hero. I was 14. I hadn't done anything, I hadn't experienced much, but I did feel this overwhelming, irresistible urge to give my life and heart completely over to God. Growing up as a kid, preachers was always my heroes. I always had a deep fascination with Martin Luther King as a kid and to this day a heavy follower of King, and that's kind of how my ministry began in the Midwest Cleveland Ohio.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's talk about that era, let's talk about King for a second and then we'll go back to that. I jump around, trust me we'll pick back up because it was lately in the news around, but trust me, we'll pick back up Because it was lately in the news. We hear nuanced conversations about religion, politics, social norms and also pop culture, and recently John MacArthur had some things disperse and to say about King, we think about King'sge. And to say about King, we think about King's legacy. And you think about some of the tension that comes into, all that comes with everybody. Nuance, absolutely, how do, how do you, how did you feel when you heard those statements of him? Denying that King is in heaven and things of that nature is part for the course.
Speaker 2:To say that MacArthur's a bigot would be an understatement. Do you want my?
Speaker 1:honest response on that. Yeah, well.
Speaker 2:Brother MacArthur is unique. I think he's selective in his reading of scripture and we can't say that we don't have a heaven or hell to put anyone in. I think also we have to look at King historically. Jonathan Jiggs' book King and he frames that he wrote that book because we spend too much time making heroes and also we have to consider the times. I think King was a man of his time and he's like anyone else that we read in scripture. If these things are true, he's undeniably human and I think we have to remember that. And I don't think we have to remember that and I don't think we have to reject that. However, I do think evangelicals, that breed of evangelicals, they don't live by really grace, they live by survival of the slickest, they live by the code of if you don't get caught, you're moral.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know what's interesting about that. When I listened to the clip that they pulled up, I didn't give it too much of my energy, because, been there, done that, we've heard these things for years and I think we give what we give people too much a response. We give them legitimize their platform indirectly, and I know why people do it. You know, dr Davis, he did his letter, I signed that and things of that nature, but I still feel as if it gives them a sense of legitimacy when you do that and you may say, oh, you got to legitimize because his platform is following things of that nature. No, you don't.
Speaker 1:However, it was a 1956 sermon, it was. I don't even think King understood what he was saying. It was this Plato-ism You've learned, you're going to school, I think we've all been there. You're trying to say something that's deep and profound and I think, if you know God, king's dad, if you know the men that were around him, somebody pulled his coat, somebody said X, y, z. You never heard it again and obviously through his life and through his works and the fruit that he bears bears witness to the fact that he has some that that orthodox in his faith existed and developed during time, which develops in all of us.
Speaker 2:Well, I think we can never deny this. Those who critique King and I would say, if you want to evaluate someone, at least be on par with them we always highlight King simply as a civil rights leader, right, and we kind of marginalize him being a preacher. But the other piece that we constantly marginalize King had a PhD in systematic theology.
Speaker 1:And King also was denied acceptance to Dallas Theological Seminary, which would have developed his. All of that's developed. I remember the first time somebody asked me was Jesus Christ, all man and all God. I'm like we didn't deal with this at Sunday school.
Speaker 2:So I don't think he totally abandoned orthodoxy and we could all take one thing and try to build a straw house.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, you got to look at it holistically. To do that start on the premise that this was a great man. That is behind the core of the American superpower right now. The ideology of civil rights, the concept of black people are fighting for freedom, even going all the way down to South Africa all the way across the world.
Speaker 1:His impact was there. So you can have these conversations. They need to be nuanced, they need to be contextualized, in both history and preaching and perspective, and I think all of us. If you look back at something we wrote or said or preach, it has hints of things like that's not right, but there's always the piece we have to.
Speaker 2:Also, we have to be very mindful of taking critique from individuals who have no real respect or regard for our culture.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, or any culture besides their own.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:And that goes to gender, class and race and sex. Yeah, gender does. Oh yeah, it's early in the day and race and sex.
Speaker 2:Yeah, gender does. Oh yeah, pardon me, it's early in the day and another thing.
Speaker 1:So you're influenced by King. Yes, Home life is your dad your hero, my dad.
Speaker 2:Yes, very much so. Preacher, pastor, also entrepreneur. Yes, very much so. Preacher, pastor, also entrepreneur. Yes, mother was in the home. I was fortunate I don't call it blessed, I'm just fortunate to have mother and father in the home. My father exposed me to the best of life that he could expose me to and he didn't hold anything back from me. So I am deeply grateful for the abiding presence of my father to my life exposure. A lot of my faith and pastoral theology was kind of mended in my relationship with my mother, which unfortunately, I don't say.
Speaker 2:Just the lessons of how I endeavor to relate to people, even the things that I take toward preaching. I leaned on, of course, the technical things from my father, just being transportable and relatable for my mother. Mother was a singer choir, choir director Was my Sunday school teacher all the way up to probably about middle school. So each time I got promoted she was promoted. So shaped much of my biblical understanding and worship. Siblings. I have one brother, jeremiah Parks, dr Jeremiah Parks. He's a pastor in Orangeboro, kentucky. He's 10 years younger than me, so he's 30 years old and the Lord has really blessed him and he's a good, great preacher in his own right.
Speaker 1:High school what's after high?
Speaker 2:school. Went to a Lutheran high school, private high school. Then I— oh, you went to private school, went to private school.
Speaker 1:That explains a lot yeah.
Speaker 2:But I went to public school, lutheran high school, east. Then I was accepted. I was struggling between that. I could have went to a Lutheran college, but I opted to go to American Baptist College in Nashville, tennessee. Oh, the Holy Hill, which I'm very proud of, spent three years there, so a member of Watson Grove Baptist Church while I was there under Curtis Goodwin. Ok, ok, many people may not know his name, but very much responsible for the maturation of many now middle aged pastors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, his name came to our conversation with Dr Breonna's Mitchell. Yes, yeah, you're there in Nashville. How is that? Tell us a little bit about the history of American Baptist College. Yes, great school established in 1924.
Speaker 2:We celebrate 100 years next year and it's a great school for preachers, undergrad, open enrollment institutions so many individuals who would not get the opportunity to go to college. They receive that opportunity at American Baptist College. Individuals like Julia Scruggs John Lewis started at American Baptist College Dr Bernard Lafayette, james Beville individuals, those likes John Rouse the list goes on and on.
Speaker 2:Browness, mitchell, walter Malone the list goes on and on and on of preachers, individuals who have shaped the faith life out of American Baptist College, now with a strong social justice emphasis, has been a great producer for the black church. You finished there, yes.
Speaker 1:I finished Finished in three years. Yeah, that's good. I'm so grateful. Yeah, yeah, smart man, I did go to class private school and then I just came in three years. What, what is what is happening to you as a person there? What's what's developing the most, would you say, in those three years? Is it the discipline of study? It is the love and the crafting of sermons, um, is it the, the pull towards being a husband and a father? What's happening?
Speaker 2:You can get those three years, all of those things, the discipline of study, growing as a person. I would hope I met who now is my wife, joy, and a deep, abiding love for the church I think I discovered while at American Baptist Church I wanted love for the church. I think I I discovered while at American Baptist church I wanted to serve the church. Why I have? No, I have a huge regard for those who take the route of scholarship, but I knew without a shadow of a doubt that I would serve the local church.
Speaker 1:Who is your other preaching? Heroes and mentors, as being developed during this time as well.
Speaker 2:My heroes or who was being developed with me? Who?
Speaker 1:are being developed as it relates to mentors. Who are my mentors? Who are you learning from afar? Yes, who are you learning from intimately? I?
Speaker 2:can give you some immediately. While locally there was Pastor Curtis Goodwin, my pastor, excellent pastor, no better. Pastor James Tex Thomas preaching, of course, my father and a name that many people don't know, pastor Darrell Drumwright, who was one of my professors at American Baptist College he's a graduate from Harvard University was the assistant to the bishop at a mega church there, temple Church, which he ended up becoming the pastor. Bishop Graves transitioned Joe Walker. I'm having all of these Bishop Joseph Walker. I'm having all of these exposures while I'm in Nashville all at the same time.
Speaker 2:Okay, and I got really introduced to expository preaching while I was in Nashville, not necessarily at American Baptist. How did you get introduced to it? I was always taught to be biblical. I had a friend named Cedric Cheatham who was one of the silent influences in my life. We talked preaching every day, I know for 10 years from school, and we modeled that listening to preachers life. We talk preaching every day, I know for 10 years from school and, and we modeled that listening to preachers and a gentleman named by the name of Joe and Ivy really introduced me to the fundamentals of a biblical preacher.
Speaker 1:What about from a distance? Who are the? Who are the men and women that you are hearing from a distance, that are developing into heroes, models, mentors?
Speaker 2:We were listening first of all to everybody. Okay, Some people we probably shouldn't have been listening to, but I would say Feel free to share those I'll be the people who really positively influence One, two people.
Speaker 2:Now this is. They are worlds apart but they're from the same state. Jerry Black, love his ability to narrate and just tell the story, absolutely, this huge celebratory rooted in the black tradition of pain. So I grew up listening to his cassette tapes. I wanted to be Jerry Black. Listening to his cassette tapes, I wanted to be Jerry Black. And who influenced my burning to grow to be a preacher? In death? Without a doubt, the Reverend Dr Maurice Watson. Yeah, yeah, I mean, he's everything. He's heart, mind, transportable spirit. And what I've always appreciated about Dr Watson was you know, some preachers, they preach and they're good preachers, they're great preachers, but sometimes they turn it on and off at particular places and menus. But one thing I've always been deeply moved by no matter where I've seen Dr Watson, I always felt that the same preacher was showing up Consistency.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, I mean and to this day I mean one of his greatest. Well, I think one of the greatest things that people will have to write about Dr Watson is his consistency as a preacher.
Speaker 1:Right, I agree with that wholeheartedly. You're developing what's after ABC you're developing.
Speaker 2:What's after? What's after abc? After abc, I had a deep desire to go to vanderbilt divinity. I had a professor who did not turn in the letter of recommendation and then asked me do you think that you're vanderbilt material? So basically that was his way of him saying that he felt that I was not rendered material Absolutely. So I ended up going to Howard, which now, in hindsight, it was the providence of God.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Darrell Jermry was really pro me leaving Nashville. He said East Coast will give you some exposures that staying in Nashville would not. And I had three wonderful, remarkable years at Howard of learning critical thinking. It was just great. And to be in the nation's capital.
Speaker 1:Let's go back to something you said about preachers. You're listening to that. You should not have been listening to. We don't have to say their name unless you want to. That would be great for our viewing and our ratings and our numbers. Unless you want to, that'd be great for viewing and our ratings and our numbers.
Speaker 2:But would you, bad George? Y'all hear this.
Speaker 1:Bad, bad, bad, bad George. What was the style? What was it that you say you shouldn't be listening to? Was it because sometimes it's positive? Sometimes it's because you're trying to mimic something that's so great it's not reachable. What is it that you say?
Speaker 2:Probably listening to preachers who were heavy celebratory light on lesson, or what I like to deem those who are simply exhibitionist preachers. What does that mean? Well, I think you have to watch with preaching, especially in our tradition not simply ours but with those that simply showcase gifts, style, vocal gymnastics and vocality. I think that can be very it's alluring but it can be very toxic for impressionable preachers.
Speaker 1:How did you yourself stay away from being the hooper, the late-nighter? I don't know if I did.
Speaker 2:You didn't. I don't know if I did, but I always had a father that would pull me on that and said you want to be taken as a serious preacher. I think for a long time as a minister I was probably only seen as, or deemed as, a hooper. I would like to pray that people see something a little more than that.
Speaker 1:What is your parents saying when you're going to DC? How did your mom and dad feel about they were pro?
Speaker 2:They were pro. It was good. It was a great place for the continued growth. I think when you're 18, 19 in a church city and you have some gifts, you know it can be easy for you to stop growing, and DC was another area for growth. So I think God has always put me in areas where it has caused me to intentionally grow. Where'd you go?
Speaker 1:to church at out there.
Speaker 2:In DC, the Meridian Hill Baptist Church, 16th Street, northwest Okay, right in the heart of DC, and I served the Reverend Calvin Cage. I served as his assistant pastor. Wow, so that was a greatbut to be in DC. Everybody was coming George Gregory, dr Watson, freddie Haynes, dr West all of these people were coming to DC and you want to see like DC. You have politics, power, public thinkers. You're at Howard, you're at the crossroads, you're at the intersection of all of that, all the colleges and universities, and I was privileged to go to school with Keelan Duke, jameson Hunter, kalita Forbes, kenyatta, gilbert, who's known as a preaching professor, now noted home politician. He was finishing his PhD and I was one of his first students and I'm blessed. I was blessed by that.
Speaker 1:What's after DC?
Speaker 2:After DC, I was called six months after graduation to the Riverside Missionary Baptist Church. What'd you say? Yes, south side of Memphis, great historical church that went through transition and I was privileged to follow one of the nation's best preachers, kevin Brian Willis. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So you're learning, you're going to school, you're developing as a preacher, but you keep mentioning about these churches. You were going to Watson Grove so you're not like, don't want to be in church.
Speaker 2:I wanted to go to church. I enjoy church. I always felt that I was called for the church.
Speaker 1:I don't think, so it's important even though you're in seminary, to be connected to a local church? Yes, because the danger is very important.
Speaker 2:Because I think the danger is you can sit in classrooms and all you know is theory, but you don't know the practicality of how to serve people. So I believe one of the contributing factors to any level of success that I've had in ministry is because I have been deeply rooted and grounded in having relationship with people and if you're going to do ministry, it's people that count. Smart goes a long way. It can enhance what you do, but I don't think it comes before the love of people.
Speaker 1:When did you get married?
Speaker 2:in this I got married my middle year at Howard Okay, my middle year at Howard. Joy and I became married, stayed there about a year and a half and then I got called to Riverside. Why did you do that? Why did you get married? Because Mrs Parks is the best thing that has ever happened to me.
Speaker 1:The Lord knew.
Speaker 2:I needed some balance in my life.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir, oh bless his name.
Speaker 2:No. Joy has been a great help and life partner, amen. She has represented consistency and a constant reminder for me in my life for the things that matter, because you can get so in ministry and whatever we believe ministry success is is attaining that, and joy is always that level of what's important.
Speaker 1:What family then work, that and joy is always that level of what's important what, uh? Family didn't work. What um do you think um created this sense of social discipline at such a young age, um to not just pursue marriage but to accomplish it and maintain it as you have thus far? Was it your parents? Was it other mentors? I would say parents.
Speaker 2:My parents had a marriage marriage like anybody else's marriage, ups and downs. I saw them stick through it, so that was important to me. I didn't realize how young I was getting married, so I probably probably would have been a much better husband if I was a bit older and had, uh, some different experiences. But uh, the Lord is merciful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she moved to DC originally with you, not originally.
Speaker 2:Once we got married, we were, we were, uh, we were probably the last of the classic uh letters and uh, once we got married, we were probably the last of the classic letters talking, did not move in until we were married. All of that it worked out. The Lord was faithful.
Speaker 1:When did his children come into play About?
Speaker 2:10 months, a year after we had been here. Still at Howard. No, when I went to Riverside, when you went to Riverside, so we had no children, it was just us. So we had about a good two years of just Joy and I, and I think that's very important if people can manage to do that. So we had some time of just us, enjoying us, and that was very important. And Trey came along. Then, two years later, genesis, two years later, the twins Wow, Praise God.
Speaker 1:man, you are there. You're in this new church. You're a new husband, new father. Your name is starting to ring in the preaching circles. How are you navigating and processing all that at the time? Are you processing it well? Are you getting a little big headed? What's going on?
Speaker 2:I don't know if I processed it well or not. I think history somebody else maybe can speak to that. The one thing I can say is I had an understanding of itinerant preaching even before pastoring, because as a young boy preacher, I was always preaching somewhere. I had the opportunity to preach somewhere. Memphis was a new area. I was given the opportunities. I don't know if I balanced it all well, but I was very grateful for it.
Speaker 1:What did you use to help you try to create balance, or was you not? You were just going?
Speaker 2:with the flow. I think I was just going. Oh, I was a young preacher, All I know is.
Speaker 1:You get an opportunity, you go preach. You go preach, try to kill that house.
Speaker 2:You preach, give your best preaching, Prayerfully. They call you back.
Speaker 1:What's pastoring like now? You're not the assistant pastor anymore. You're not the assistant pastor anymore, you're a pastor. You're preaching every Sunday. You're dealing with African-American church folks. What's that like?
Speaker 2:Very loving church. They probably should have put me out four or five times about some of the things I've said, but it was good. I had the blessing of being on staff, of being on staff, and I think being an assistant to the pastor gave me some experiences, having a great circle of pastors that would give me honest advice. So I've leaned heavily on the wisdom in my life. So I can go down the list my dad, calvin Cage, dr Watson those individuals have never told me something that was wrong. I can say that in my case. I think people have to be very mindful of who they call on. Melvin Charles Smith as well. Right there, dr Melvin Charles Smith. Right there in Memphis, tennessee, where Darryl Drumwright, I could always call them and they would give me the truth Like no, don't do that, that's silly or you are wrong.
Speaker 1:As you pastor, and things are happening in the nation. We talked about social justice, a little bit ABC. What are some of the things that stand out to you as pastor that now I have to address? Is it the funeral? Is it 9-11? Is it slain or some unarmed black person, Black man, black woman? What is it that now is putting you in this moment of like oh, this is real.
Speaker 2:I think American Baptist College always gave me that and Howard.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, but what I'm asking is as a pastor now.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's what I'm back into.
Speaker 1:It gave me the heightened sensitivity.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's what I'm back into. Okay, I got you Heightened sensitivity, okay. So when things are going on in the world, I think it's important, if the pastor has that capacity and that's their bandwidth, to help the congregation and their people to understand. What is God potentially saying to us through this? What is the biblical response? What is our task as thinking Christians that we don't have to bury our head in the sand? Trayvon Martin, how do we respond to a bad day, when there's an election that we didn't think that would go one way and it went another way? What party are you with as a believer?
Speaker 1:Do you affiliate yourself with any party?
Speaker 2:I probably do, but I don't think any of the parties right now are looking out for the overall best interest. So I think it's a best interest of people of color, of black people. Yeah, that's a much wider conversation. I think that we need to begin to have but yeah, where do you start that conversation?
Speaker 1:how do you deal with?
Speaker 2:I think black clergy needs to start having it, but we have to make sure that we have the capacity to talk about these things beyond immediate and when you say immediate, what do you? Mean immediate, whatever we get from a particular party or our conventional understandings. And how does things look long term for the benefit of communities of color, because we blend in a lot with other communities now?
Speaker 1:Is race still important? In the context of America? We had a mixed president, we have so many families being blended, we have intersectionality between genders and things of that nature. Is race something that we should even be talking about?
Speaker 2:Why is that? Because it's apparent we see it in housing Health Health Loans, in housing Health Health Loans, how people are treated when we go into a store travel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how do we address that as Christians, but uniquely as African-American Christians?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's creating spaces in our churches to have meaningful and needed conversations on, to have to give people this knowledge and understanding of what it is to be black christian in a divided america.
Speaker 1:If you were counseling some past a pastor that has to address that, what are some of the things that you will say stand out to it as laced, the issues that are perplexing black christian americans today? What issues, yeah, what advice? Would you say like hey, get ready, you're that are perplexing black Christian Americans today. What issues, yeah, what advice? Would you say like, hey, get ready, you're gonna have to deal with this.
Speaker 2:You're gonna have to deal with You're gonna have to get ready to deal with the erasing of the black middle class, the idea of sexuality most important the role of scripture, the redefinition of family. Of course, always technology, ai, maybe those five. Probably there's a lot more deeper issues.
Speaker 1:I'm not a futurist but Maybe let's look at, when you say the erasing of the middle class, what does that mean? How do we combat that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think the number one thing mostly for, especially for African Americans, we are way below, we're all the way at the back. We'll get, we'll get right. So the main thing was for churches, especially church, is if you have what some middle class, what members average black church doesn't have a ton of rich members. Churches, especially if churches became overly mobile, is if you have what Some middle class, what Members the average black church doesn't have a ton of rich members if you have two or three. So when you have the erasing of middle class, what does that mean for people?
Speaker 1:Is middle class being erased, or is middle class that has a Christian being being erased, or is it both? I think it's both. So the middle class that does exist around African-American are steering away from the church, especially in certain geographical places.
Speaker 2:What does it mean? Because we spend so much time trying to assimilate? So, once I assimilate into culture, do I need God? What does that look like? Which we do, because there are some different complexities. They're still human, they still have family, children, struggles to sense the self. They need God as a king and ruler to help them to make sense of life, to let their life speak in the words of a guy named Parker or Palmer, and so they need God. But how do we, how do we present that?
Speaker 1:You're in the affluent area for African-Americans, probably in the country. What are some of the things that you're trying to do to address this reality of the race and middle class at Metropolitan and we hadn't got there yet, but you're currently at the Metropolitan Baptist Church and I know in our conversation you're've just started your first pastor at Riverside. We'll go through that a little bit more in a second, but just to just home in on this issue, what are some of the things that you're doing currently to sort of tackle this notion of embracing the black middle class?
Speaker 2:Creating great modes of transportation, of communication, podcasts, those things where we have a captive audience. Two is start developing ministries that help people at the bottom level. Financial literacy what does this mean? To plan ahead, to preach sermons, to think biblically of what it means to leave a legacy for us not to be simply consumers, but also how to enjoy life, but enjoy life in balance. So I was in an old commercial that it was saying that how you market to the African American is this need to be affirmed and to be recognized. So if I need to be recognized, we'll have more money on our back than what we have in our bank account yeah, yeah, so we will.
Speaker 1:We have the tendency um, like any other group, um, but uniquely for us in the american experience to see, create, seek social affirmation through name brands and other things. That does not recycle the cash in our community, and so thus it leaves us in this space where we're now defining life and luxury as things that are different from those that have financial, psychological, financial security, such as what you talked about. You wear it on your back, you drive it and you're not able to go on a trip.
Speaker 2:I think about two of the greatest ways where we pass on wealth is through home ownership and insurance. So now we're backing away from those two things and we can't even continue this, we can't even start this idea of generational wealth.
Speaker 1:If we're not doing those things, then also entrepreneurship and business. Yeah, so you got those three areas of it. Let's go back. I know we're jumping, but, trust me, I'm, I'm, I'm following. You're at Riverside, you're navigating Riverside, you're navigating through the various issues as pastor, your husband, father, your husband, father. You're gleaming from your times at Howard, your times at ABC, your times at both of the churches Watson, grove. And where was it?
Speaker 2:Sacrificial my dad's church.
Speaker 1:The Marien Hill in DC and this is on the media context of there it is. Things at Riverside are going great.
Speaker 2:Oh Lord, bless that church in a phenomenal way.
Speaker 1:So you left, though Left. Yeah, what was going on with that brother?
Speaker 2:Well, lord was blessing us in a huge way. We were in a building project, getting ready to build a new sanctuary. But I felt and discerned my time was up and I did not want my ministry to plateau at building a building.
Speaker 1:Why does that feel like your time was up? How did you discern that feeling?
Speaker 2:I just feel like I heard a person who I love dearly and I heard a great group of people that only referenced the new facility as almost a promised land instead of as a building, as a tool, and I don't know if I could overcome that and at that time I thought some things were needed. The people never really fought against me, but I know in order to do that for a metaphor, some blood would be shed and I asked the Lord to show. Lord, if you want me to go through, I'm willing. But if not and not the Lord really opened the door it was in the capital campaigns going good, Everything was going good.
Speaker 2:My wife's pregnant with twins, and we made our commitment, started giving on our commitment. My wife was just like. I just feel God is about to do something and in the big moments of my life in ministry, God has really spoke to me or caused me to be more open, when Mrs Parks have said some things. And then the opportunity came to go to New Hope. Everything was done. We had just gotten received the loan.
Speaker 2:New Hope is my second. My second stewardship Where's that? At North Little Rock in Conway, Arkansas, I had the blessed privilege to follow Reverend Carlos Kelly.
Speaker 1:And what was that transition like for you?
Speaker 2:It was different. It was good but different. To leave a church that you're almost like their child. They love you, you are, this is our love family. To come behind an established pastor, closer in age. No tension at all in the transition, it was just different. I'm not from Little Rock, I was a guy from the neighboring large city. It was different but it was great. They were very loving, warm people, but just different context. What was?
Speaker 1:Little Rock, like I mean Memphis, is not big, it's Little Rock.
Speaker 2:It's a great city, but it's a smaller city. It's not Big Rock, it's not Medium Rock, but it's Little Rock. But I want to say Little Rock was good to me. It grew me as a person, prayerful. I think it grew me as a preacher too, which is ironicland. Taylor says all preachers have to go through memphis at some point of their life. So I spent six years in memphis, but I think the lord grew me as a preacher in my faith in little rock. Because I went to little rock believing that I was going to be on the backside of the mountain. I love the church. It had so much potential, so I made up my mind that I wouldn't be going anywhere. I went to Little Rock believing that I was going to be on the backside of the mountain. I love the church. It had so much potential, so I made up my mind that I wouldn't be going anywhere. I stayed there forever and I would be off the road.
Speaker 1:And the Lord did the exact opposite. It became more of a request for you to preach in various places, but keeping you away from home. And then, at the same time, where you currently are, that opportunity presented itself, which you eventually accept as you are now, and you can tell us now where you are, where you pastor now, how long you've been there.
Speaker 2:I'm blessed to serve the wonderful people of the Metropolitan Baptist Church established in DC. Blessed to serve the wonderful people of the Metropolitan Baptist Church established in DC. Now we're in Largo, Maryland, and that church is 159 years old. It's the second oldest black Baptist church established in DC.
Speaker 1:You ain't scared of nothing. You follow Bishop Kevin Willis. You follow we would call him Bishop Carlos Kelly.
Speaker 2:He's the bishop now.
Speaker 1:He is the bishop, and then you follow not just Dr Maurice Watson, the precedes him, Dr H Beecher Hicks. I mean, you're really showing these guys who really George Parks is.
Speaker 2:No, the Lord takes care of babies and foods. That's all that is. The Lord takes care of babies and foods. That's all that is. The Lord takes care of babies and foods. What are?
Speaker 1:some of the things on your heart that do now you're at Metropolitan.
Speaker 2:Man. I want to continue to restore that church. Dr Maurice Watson has done a great job, did a great job stabilizing that church. I want to continue the rich preaching legacy. As far as I know, that's always been a part of that church, but as far as my memory, EC Smith, H Richard Hicks, the Reverend Dr Maurice Watson to bring that church back to what contemporary ministry looks like in the 21st century, Just want to be a church that's established in the D, established in DC, but serves the DMV. So we want to be a hub for ministry there.
Speaker 1:So we're grateful as long as you feel comfortable, talk about the history of the church, what you said, because when you say reestablish not, you know we don't have to go into the glory details of anything of that nature that lets you feel comfortable doing so. But what are some of the things that now have you all working on? Cause what happens in our community is people hear pieceworks of stuff and they run with it, um, and everything is embellished, um and so just to get a clear from the horse's mouth, so to speak, um, what that process, what the church was like your days and how you were in DC, you saw it firsthand, and then you know what occurred as relates to the challenges and then how it was reestablished with Dr Watson in some ways, and how you feel, how you continue to excel this process.
Speaker 2:Yes, the Metropolitan Church was just like going to the Washington Monument for Black people in DC. Right there on our street, the likes of Maya Angelou, ron Brown, tronel. It was a mainstay for politicians Richard Smallwood, richard Smallwood, richard Smallwood, thomas Tyler. Nolan Williams was our minister of music. Great known for music, high worship, blended worship, the arts Church has a high appreciation and ministry to the margins had a great street ministry. All those things were at work in that church. Great street ministry All those things were at work in that church. Dr HB HB Hicks and his legendary preaching prowess, ability exposed and high rhetoric In an effort to serve this present age. They wanted to go out to Largo, maryland, and established church. Some people didn't want to go but they made the decision to go. And a grand building project. But the economy tanked 2008.
Speaker 2:No one saw that coming and causing us to lose that building project. And Dr Hicks was nearing retirement and health challenges. So you have a failed building project, challenge project, retiring pastor and only like Reverend Dr Maurice Watson-Cahan, came to help that church, stabilize that church.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And God knows he did that and we are indebted to him as well as we're indebted to what Dr Hicks has contributed to that church and he stabilized the church and I was in Little Rock excited for Dr Cone.
Speaker 1:Home.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, not ever imagining that I would be going to Metropolitan.
Speaker 1:So at the same time that you transitioned, Dr Watson transitioned back to Little Rock, where you currently are. You're excited to have your mentor.
Speaker 2:My preaching mentor is right around the corner. We live around the corner from each other. We see each other three days a week.
Speaker 1:Yeah and end up switching that you were leaving and would go to DC. What are some of your passions now as it relates to I'm hearing this dispensation of the church? What are some things that you want to get off the ground in these early years?
Speaker 2:Prayerfully get us in permanent building space, restore our worship, continue to restore our worship culture, to reestablish that we're not in DC, established in DC, but we serve the DMV, we serve the greater area and God has blessed us. We received a $1.2 million grant from Lilly Listen to that To be a hub. We are a host and learning community to do sustainable ministry post-pandemic. What does that mean? Sustainable ministry? Well, you're the hub. Yeah, so we want to be a hub for churches in that region where we come together and learn about contemporary methodology for ministry. But as the host, we also need to be a learner as well. So we're very much a part of this learning process and journey.
Speaker 1:Those funds will enable you all to learn and also share that information to the surrounding churches. Wow, that's powerful.
Speaker 2:And providing them with interns and grants to upgrade their technology and all those things. So I think God has really put us in a great position, just not for us to grow before us, to kind of be the hub to help grow the churches.
Speaker 1:You're in DC. Area is 2024. What is going on? Maybe this year around November Election, presidential election, yes. Who are you voting for? I don't know.
Speaker 2:Well, I can tell you who I'm not voting for.
Speaker 1:You can tell us who you're not, who you're not voting for.
Speaker 2:I'm not voting for Brother Trump. I'm not voting for him.
Speaker 1:You're not voting for former President Trump because.
Speaker 2:He doesn't represent the best for all people, just not. I just don't think he's good for America. Right, it's just too divisive.
Speaker 1:Do you? Is that something do you have? What is the role of the church in navigating people through that decision?
Speaker 2:I think the role of the church is to help people think theologically about the things that we say. That's important. Not saying that every person checks all the boxes, right, but God knows you ought to check some, yeah, and also helping our people to realize what the Bible says and what the Bible does not say. Mm-hmm, because with elections there comes rhetoric and propaganda. Mm-hmm. And sometimes we wrap certain parties wrap stuff in spiritual speech that does not have any spiritual real import wow.
Speaker 1:So will you be preaching on anything specifically for that? I don't know. Does your church allow guests to come in with?
Speaker 2:yeah, we allow guests to come in. You know we've had individuals. Vice president pence came. I think he came at the wrong season, when Dr Watson was there and Doc had to speak out on what was going on.
Speaker 1:What happened in that situation?
Speaker 2:Oh, Doc spoke out. There's some great clips on CNN what he felt that was needed after President Trump called those countries of color asshole places. So it was great. I loved it. I was watching it, so I don't know what I'd be preaching during that season, but I know I'd be praying through it sooner than later.
Speaker 1:When people come in there, are they allowed to speak?
Speaker 2:I have not made a determination of that Okay being in such a highly political context.
Speaker 1:That's why I asked.
Speaker 2:I don't know and I'm processing through that I think people need to address, but I don't know. That's the belly.
Speaker 1:What social issues do we need to be addressing from the pulpit as we come into this election season? Just have fresh on people's mind to be conscious of these as they make their own autonomous decision. Women's rights Say more about that.
Speaker 2:Are we voting for people that are handcuffing women not to make decisions for themselves? And we have to be mindful of this, because most times we say we are agents of free will. God gives us the right to choose, so God gives us the right to choose him. You don't think God gives us the capacity to choose what's best for our bodies overall, so you?
Speaker 1:talk about abortion and abortion rights as it relates to women. Now there are Christians who will say abortion is a sin, abortion is wrong, killing. How do you teach and navigate through that?
Speaker 2:I have not. I don't know if everything is required for preaching Got you. I think some things we address I think it's my job as a pastor is not always to preach to them, but at least to raise the question for people to think.
Speaker 1:Ethics, ethics.
Speaker 2:And then also for areas that are not my strength, to bring individuals in that can speak intelligently and biblically to that, and I think as a a pastor you have to realize you know we're generalists, we're not specialists and when.
Speaker 1:Um, but it's nuanced conversation. Would you agree that both sides are nuanced and so, oh, absolutely so, I guess, when you say women's right, I guess for me it, it requires for both, for either side, that sense of meat to the bone of this is a health issue. This could be think about the maternal death rates, and that takes place especially when African-American women, that takes place especially with African-American women and at the same time, being clear that this is not a promotion of promiscuity and the same thing, of divorce. What would you say?
Speaker 2:God hates divorce Right, but he also gives grace for divorce. I mean we need grace in all other areas of our life. So, and our whole understanding of what it is who God affirms. I think God affirms marriage, but God does not abandon people who are single Right.
Speaker 2:So, I think we have to have a much better, closer reading. Yeah, I hope he hasn't abandoned you, george. I think we have to have a really closer reading and a better interpretation of the New Testament outside of our western, civilized, puritan influenced ways you said a lot there.
Speaker 1:How does the puritan influence the western?
Speaker 2:civilization. What's the difference?
Speaker 1:between the Western mindset and the Eastern mindset.
Speaker 2:I think we have to always. I think it's a little different, but I think we have to stand in the times of the text, and I think that's something that's a hard thing for us to do as Westerners, because we are being so Westernized we look at everything through.
Speaker 1:What does it mean to be westernized?
Speaker 2:We just like, like we think this whole idea of church only way of churches. We us coming into the building, but churches it was a community and that's.
Speaker 1:Western.
Speaker 2:That's biblical, I don't know. You can determine.
Speaker 1:No, no, no. What I'm trying to get at is it's not a gotcha question.
Speaker 1:You know, when we say, you know, been westernized or puritanized, those, those statements, has an important component to it as it relates to even what you talk about, as it relates to religion, as you talk to social norms. You know, one of the things we talked about this podcast is about and developing those things and if you look into the puritan standpoint of the play on pure and there's perception, but also being defined through the lenses of a social groups, experience and dominant religious bit, not necessarily Christian bent being as well. So I just I wanted to hear you and still want to hear you, sort of for our listeners, not for you for our listeners to be kind of be able to understand and identify that some of the things that we hold on to as social norms in our context of being Americanized even more specifically, is not necessarily the moral apex or biblical standard of living.
Speaker 1:It's just what, being from a certain region of the world during a certain historical time of the world being impacted by certain people, and world in a certain historical time of the world being impacted by certain people.
Speaker 2:And a certain time.
Speaker 1:Yeah time.
Speaker 2:A certain time is very huge. So I think we have to be mindful of taking reading the eyes of the text through Jesus and being sensitive to that above everything else.
Speaker 1:How do you deal with difficult texts? Um, and you're preaching. How do you deal with the rape of Tamar? Um, how do you uh, um? How do you deal with the rehab? How do you deal with the David? Uh, not the David that's playing the instruments and writing the songs, but the Davis that's setting up men to get killed and, most likely, raping a woman.
Speaker 2:I wrote an article sometime for Southwestern seminary called the narrative. That fails and I think the real piece about preaching characters is we don't preach them as models, we preach them as mirrors. And really standing in the shoes of that character Of saying, do you see yourself here? Maybe Tamar sings? Do you see yourself as abused? Do you see some David in you where you've used your power to get your way? And really that might be bigger than the adultery. It was this whole play of domination because Bathsheba almost did.
Speaker 2:She have a say in the matter she doesn't, but we don't hear that from our other majority culture pulpits and that's a lot of place where so much, but we don't hear that from our other majority culture pulpits.
Speaker 2:And that's a lot of place where it's so much you don't hear it from a lot of men black or white, yeah, so just being open, being sensitive, and I think that's what theological education comes in. A robust theological education, I don't think it could be robust if you only view a text solely from your side. At least be conversant even with those that you don't agree with.
Speaker 1:How do you make sure that you don't do that?
Speaker 2:I think having preaching partners that preach totally different from me. So some of my preaching partners I probably like to call myself biblical, some would say conservative. I like to say biblical, but talking to individuals that I know have a different perspective and that will give me some insights and research for me to think about.
Speaker 1:When you say a biblical partner, I mean a preaching partner. Is that another associate? Is it another pastor?
Speaker 2:I think it's another pastor.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Sometimes if you have professors that have, I really think if we engage these professors a bit more, I think that's a huge opportunity for growth for local pastors you know what's interesting?
Speaker 1:you said you know being more conservative. I always laugh at that statement when I hear black people say that because black people are inherently conservative, we are aloof to our conservativeness. Yes, because black people are inherently conservative, we are Aloof to our conservativeness. Yes, even if you take people who have liberal perspectives, let's just throw stuff LGBTQIA+, but you hear them talk and begin talking in other areas.
Speaker 2:it bleeds back to a conservative standpoint, even if they may be liberal, even if we're selectively conservative.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah, even if it's selective. Where do you think that comes from? Because it's not a westernization thing.
Speaker 2:You know where. I think it comes from I was listening to a scholar. It comes, I think, from the. The continuous pushing that there's been is something wrong with us or that we're beastly or out of order. So our whole rule to show that we are not these beastly people without souls, that we take some of these more rigid stands or social acceptance and that we've allowed other people to implore as spiritual yeah, that's interesting. I wish I could have said it better, but no, no no, I think it was.
Speaker 1:It's clear, and I think that leaves space for us to have the conversation about the psychological aspect of being black in America. I think King nails it among the dominant race in America, opposed to this inherent feeling of inferiority among those that are not a part of dominate, specifically white for the former and black for the latter. As a pastor of a predominantly African-American congregation and just even understanding preaching in, quote quote, unquote black church how important, because we talked about the celebratory point earlier, and I think there's a reason why there's that aim, because this is the important to say even if you got, even if you have the beat them down about something you got, to leave a at least some hope, some sense of celebration, because you have a world that's constantly pushing them down. Talk about that for a little bit.
Speaker 2:It's very important celebration, as always. We have always had to find ways to celebrate and and and curate the goodness of God in so much pain. We see that with Jesus, even on the cross. We only say that Jesus quotes Psalms 22,. And we just say he quotes Psalms 22, my God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? But when you keep reading that Psalms he says now I know that God, he's still confident in God, that I will trust in God and God will deliver me. So it lets us know that pain and hope can live in the same house.
Speaker 1:Joy, and pain, sunshine and rain.
Speaker 2:That's right. Yeah, so we need that Even in the pandemic. Remember when everybody was saying don't celebrate, Then our members was trying to say we need to hit a pass to celebrate Because they were already riddled with pain and they needed that. It was a, it was cathartic for preacher and people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it makes you feel as if, sometimes, subconsciously, we we have the tendency not to properly assess the things that we inherently do well, that is, in the artistic world. That is a part of our nature and so you know, you and I can get up and say, listen, I just want to talk to your church today about such, but next to you, you know, you take it a turn, because we have this.
Speaker 1:And I think this is tied to the American experience. I wouldn't connect this to the motherland. I think it's the experience that we've had, that's uniquely the African-Americans to be able to sing as caged birds, to be able to work all day for no pay and to be beaten and dehumanized.
Speaker 2:They still say up above my head, I hear music in there. Come on, reverend, that's huge.
Speaker 1:And it comes out in areas of our socialization. And it comes out in areas of our socialization Again, we talked about social norms in this part of the conversation, in these podcasts. It comes out in ways that sometimes becomes even offensive to our own selves, where we need to celebrate and appreciate that a little bit more.
Speaker 2:I think Frank Thomas writes a great work on that. I think it's his work on celebration. I think it's his. It's his work on celebration, I believe, is they never like to quit praising God, uh, his role of celebration and preaching. And he, he does a robust work on the role of celebration and preaching. That's something that we, we never need to be ashamed of. I don't think we ever need to let it go, but I do think we need to come with a higher sense of understanding.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you saying that. That's definitely true. A little pop culture as we leave here, oh.
Speaker 2:I'm limited there.
Speaker 1:Relevant to even some of the things we talked about. One of the things that's currently a hot topic is our dear brother Sean Combs and the things that are taking place in that, and I bring that up because oftentimes you will hear people critique and criticize the church as being you know, we know it all hypocritical, judgmental. They're people that will have no empathy, and as I look at how mainstream media, even mainstream black media, is handling this issue, it reminds me that the very thing that they try to accuse us of is the very fabric of their existence. Most of them would not need a dossier from the FBI to know some of these things that are being painted across our screen, which, under the American judicial system, this brother is innocent until proven guilty, and settling a lawsuit does not inherently mean that you are guilty of that. It means that you have the resources.
Speaker 1:We fell in that mistake with the first things, with Michael Jackson. The first case that you have the resources, where it's just more apropos to do it that way, that doesn't mean that he's innocent either. I'm just saying that that alone is not sufficient. How does a situation like that bleed into us challenging our people in the area of forgiveness, in the area of reconciliation, in the area of restoration. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yes, I think it goes a little higher than that, though. Does that make sense? Yes, I think it goes a little higher than that, though. Okay, we have to realize too Diddy is a part of a larger culture, a larger system. Yes, If this is the case, yes, so being discerning and in some cases this is not okay Anything of the abuse or the domination of any person is not okay, but could it be that he's a victim of himself?
Speaker 1:Well, it's like the Jeffrey F thing. When the list came out of Jeffrey F thing, nobody talked about the list. Here's why nobody talked about the list because everybody's name was on the list. Yeah, and so if you really want to, unravel this thing?
Speaker 2:I think it starts at discerning.
Speaker 1:Discerning Okay.
Speaker 2:Levels and then I think we can work our way down. We're all human and life, our journeys, our decisions, our interactions, our successes and our failures. When you tie them all together, it's a king reminder that we need God, we need someone, and we need a loving God, a merciful God. Now, what process things go through for us to get to that.
Speaker 1:You know you think about the rich man and Lazarus. What money does to a person?
Speaker 2:We none of us know who we are until we have that type of disposable income. Yeah, you know, we always say what we we won't do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the rich man is dead and separated from Abraham. We won't say heaven, hell, we won't use those terms Because I can't remember off scripture if that was how it was identified, so forgive me for that. Anyway, he's trying to tell God what to do in there. And then Luke 12, the parable of the rich fool, who is not a fool because he's rich. He's a fool because he believes his riches supersedes his walk and his admiration and faith and his ability and consideration of who God is.
Speaker 2:And so that list is long. That says something too. That whole thing about preaching to the middle class Witness not that if you feel that you don't have an immediate need, which you still always do, you need the invisible, immediate need of grounding we forget about. God grounds us for life. Yeah, to keep us focused on what's important, no matter what.
Speaker 1:As you navigate. Getting older and coming from a culture that's because of technology. The shift I try to get people to understand this the shift because of technology, social media and things and the cell phone selfies, all that the shift in generation is wider than it has been in any other generation. So, like there's in many ways. You're 40, I'm just turned 47. I'm glad you let the world know that you're 40, 40, about to be 41. I'm just turned 47.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you let the world know that you're older than me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they just have to look at us and see that you're younger and I'm older. Times fill us with transitions, but this gap that exists there and trying to bridge that gap, as one you brought up, I listened to cassette tapes. There's no generation that does, even in the day what you talk about.
Speaker 1:I used to write letters. They have no clue what you're talking about. You wrote a letter, you put a stamp on it, put an envelope on it and sent the. But it's such a big gap there's no other. It's such a big gap. It's not like you're 67. It's such a big gap. How do you pastor? You have an old spirit. You're probably the oldest young man or youngest old man that anybody knows. How do you pastor and still be intergenerational, specifically to the younger generation?
Speaker 2:That's an intentional push for me intergenerational, specifically to the younger generation.
Speaker 2:That's an intentional push for me because I feel like I've been trained for a generation that no longer exists or is fading away quickly, but I think it is having I'm in constant conversations with those who are attuned futurists and adding color to your team to help you to stay engaged on those things. So that's very important. And just being conversant with culture at least, even if you don't resemble it in dress or tone, at least in thought. So I don't think people are always looking for us to show up a certain type of way outside of our authentic sales, but at least people uh, when, when content is king, you know no other substitute would do so. I think if you have content and you wrestle with the things that people wrestle with, they'll still listen to you, even though if I might not show up externally the same way who are some of the preachers you listen to now.
Speaker 1:Enjoy listening to look up to man.
Speaker 2:I'm going to go younger peer older, specific, I'm listening to all of my colleagues. I'm really listening to my colleagues younger my brother Jeremiah Ty Jones, uh, Reggie sharp, Daryl Hall. I think that's a voice that a lot of people need to hear. My generation, everybody. Yourself, Phillip Pointer, who's yourself? You, Charles Goodman, Daniel, I'm just listening to everybody. Daniel Brown.
Speaker 1:Anybody in our crew.
Speaker 2:I'm listening to them. I have a profound respect. Even if we don't talk If I don't talk to that person all the time, I have a profound respect. Corey Scholl, a permanent Baptist guy. James Mooney, great biblical preacher that I think the world needs to hear, and I believe in listening to people. That's not the same. James Jackson, the older generation I have a profound respect that is really pouring into my life at this point is William Curtis, jerry Carter, wayne Croft, marvin McMickMichael. So I have a kind of a eclectic preaching diet. What I listen to.
Speaker 1:Pastoring who are the people that you lean on for pastoral insight and perspective?
Speaker 2:Dale Drumwright. Dale Drumwright, my father, dale Drumwright is a super pastor. He just is. What is he pastor? The temple church in actual tennessee. Oh then, I forget, but thought of me, or? Yeah he's just he's been a ministry, uh a ministry mentor example. Just how he's carried himself is, uh integrity. I know he's no person is perfect, but I think he's real close to the Lord, just great.
Speaker 1:Not living Preachers. You look up to not living no longer with us.
Speaker 2:Caesar Clark.
Speaker 1:Caesar Clark.
Speaker 2:No longer living oh my gosh, oh, I think he's died lately. No longer living oh my gosh, oh, I think it was that lady. That's not good. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Let's not get that morbid.
Speaker 1:Just historical figures, co Franklin.
Speaker 2:Of course CJ.
Speaker 1:Clark GE Patterson.
Speaker 2:All those yeah.
Speaker 1:I am so, I am so.
Speaker 2:Oh, charles Walker Philadelphia.
Speaker 1:One day we was riding in the car and we was listening to him. Yes, yes, yes, oh my gosh EB.
Speaker 2:Hill his that topical thematic A Lewis Patterson. I don't think we listen to those of the past generation enough. They really me and Corey Sch show talk about it all the time. Uh, sometimes listen to them I hear like Lord, I'm so far away.
Speaker 1:You're more reverence and those guys you feel reverence for God reverence for God.
Speaker 1:Thank you for the specifics of that reverence for God A a a sense of a consciousness of importance of holiness in their preaching. It's not judgmental, it's not condescending, and even G Patterson at times would be quote unquote judgmental, but it doesn't feel that way. You know, he may get up and tell you about how y'all not be drinking things of that nature, but it doesn't, even if we. But it doesn't, it doesn't. It doesn't even if we disagree with that perspective. It doesn't seem like it's coming from a viewpoint. It comes from a viewpoint of I want the best for you.
Speaker 1:Yep, I'm trying to put you down.
Speaker 2:I just want the best for you. Yeah, you don't agree with everything that your pastor says but you keep coming back because you know.
Speaker 1:But you know, just like your parents, they want the best for you. They want the best for you. So I might just hide this from them out of respect and reverence, because I know what they but they don't understand. Hey, I eat this and that so and so, this and that this and so on, so on, so on. What is a getaway? Relax, I don't have to be Dr Pastor Reverend Preacher. Mechanism for the great Reverend, dr Pastor Preacher, professor. Author Dr George Parks.
Speaker 2:What's my getaway? Yeah, good dinner, good steakhouse dinner at a local steakhouse. Just enjoy everything that comes with that pre and post. I look forward to that, and international travel. International travel gives me great reprieve and refreshment.
Speaker 1:Trepidations.
Speaker 2:Managing the opportunities that God gives. Don't want to have so much where you don't manage it well and don't ever want to come off as mechanical in preaching or in relationships, that is.
Speaker 1:That's very helpful.
Speaker 2:That's a great fear. And balancing it all, yeah, just want to be a whole person.
Speaker 1:Where can we find you? Where can we find the?
Speaker 2:church. Find me on IG at GL Parks Jr. Facebook George Lewis Parks Jr, george L Parks Jr. Metropolitan Church, the Met Church DMV. Instagram, the Met Church DMV or Metropolitan Baptist Church on Facebook. Follow us, check us out. What's your website? Metropolitanbaptistorg. So if you're ever in DC, everybody has to come to DC. Everybody got to Come by and see us on Sundays 8 o'clock or 1015. You'll be out in time for brunch.
Speaker 1:Amen, let the Lord use you. Let the Lord use you. Let the Lord use you. What you got coming up Any books, any speaking? Oh well, don't know, any books coming up, any writings, what you've already wrote.
Speaker 2:I'm praying through some things on the life of Noah and some other possibilities with putting my predecessors in conversation on lessons in pastoring. So I'm looking forward to that work and praying that we can get that out?
Speaker 1:What have you already dealt with? What have you already written?
Speaker 2:Excuse me, I've been blessed to write a small work on Samson when God's Purpose Finds you A devotional Mount Meditations. A contributor to the, the only book that I know of this on African-American expository preaching called say it by Eric Redmond, so I was grateful to be a part of that, that group that made some contributions.
Speaker 1:That's great, that's amazing. And then, last but not least, I need that there's.
Speaker 2:one of my favorites is Charlie Dates too. I like Charlie's preacher. He just has a command of the English language.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he does. He's a very, very nice guy, very smart guy. He is my sibling rival. In fact, me and him have constant Instagram social media battles About the question I was about to ask you in closing. In closing, you're from Cleveland, ohio, dayton, ohio. Who's the greatest basketball player to ever play?
Speaker 2:You put me on the spot like that. You really gonna do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I can answer it for you.
Speaker 2:I'm not answering, I want to hear what you have to say. No, I mean, it's really not a question, it's really. I mean I can answer it for you. I'm not answering. I want to hear what you have to say. No, I mean I'm not answering.
Speaker 1:I'm not answering. It's really not a question. It's really rhetorical in nature.
Speaker 2:Okay, so who's the greatest?
Speaker 1:It's like who got up on the third day?
Speaker 2:Okay, so who's?
Speaker 1:the greatest. It's not quite there, sorry Lord, but it's LeBron, but I don't think he's the greatest, it's Michael Jordan. Okay, well, now you can answer the question. All of a sudden now you can answer, but you said you couldn't answer.
Speaker 2:You see how he pulled me into that I don't understand what happened there First.
Speaker 1:I don't know what's going on. Well, I was just being said. Now, all of a sudden, bad Jordan. That's fine, that's hey. Y'all. Look out for upcoming episode of Nuance Podcast. Thank you for listening. Consider being a partner with us. Remember this is a space where we try to be honest, try to be open, we try to be intelligent, we try to be empathetic, we try to listen. Nuance Conversations signing off Peace.