Nuanced Conversations Podcast
Welcome to Nuanced Conversations Podcast, where we dive deep into the complex and often overlooked aspects of today's most pressing topics. Each week, we bring you thought-provoking discussions with experts, innovators, and everyday people who offer unique perspectives and insights. Whether we're exploring the intricacies of social issues, science, culture, or personal development, our goal is to move beyond the surface and engage in meaningful dialogue that challenges assumptions and expands understanding. Join us as we navigate the gray areas and uncover the richness that lies in nuanced conversations.
Nuanced Conversations Podcast
Transforming Church Dynamics and Embracing New Horizons
Dr. Michael Fisher, the transformative pastor of Greater Zion Baptist Church, graces us with a conversation that traverses the valleys of personal loss and the peaks of innovative leadership. After a poignant hiatus following the loss of his parents, Dr. Fisher reemerges with a revitalized spirit and ambitious plans to expand his ministry to Santa Clarita and Houston. His insights on leadership and the upcoming Pivot Conference are not just plans—they're a blueprint for engaging communities through faith and empowerment.
Reminiscing about the vibrant church culture of Los Angeles, we reflect on how generational shifts have reshaped congregational dynamics. With a backdrop of personal stories, including my own journey from performing "Amazing Grace" to embracing my calling to preach, we explore the tension between maintaining traditions and embracing individuality in faith. These anecdotes reveal how humor and questioning societal norms have shaped my spiritual path, challenging us to redefine how we engage with our communities.
Dr. Fisher and I aren't afraid to confront the church's toughest conversations, from sexuality and mental health to fostering safe, authentic spaces for all individuals. Our dialogue underscores the importance of empathetic leadership and mental health awareness, highlighting personal experiences of burnout and resilience. As we share our stories of growth and healing, we aim to inspire others to embrace their journeys with faith and courage, fostering a future where open dialogue and compassion lead the way.
Welcome to another powerful and prolific conversation here at the Nuance Conversation. My name is George Hurt. I am the creator and curator of this space. This space is meant to be a place where we have nuanced conversations. We operate in the gray, not the black and white, here, and we have one of the greatest minds, one of the greatest preachers and pastors, brother beloved, that is here with us. You all know him. I don't got to, you know. You know how Ali was like. They know Dr Michael Fisher, the wonderful and esteemed pastor of the Greater Zion Baptist Church in or church in the wonderful city of Compton, california, but he's expanded there, even in Corona and various parts. We'll learn so much about him. We want to dig in today, but I got to swear you in, do you swear? You got to raise your hand and play along with us.
Speaker 2:Are we kidding right now? That's not scripture saying we have to swear to none.
Speaker 1:Ladies and gentlemen, this is what we're going to be dealing with.
Speaker 2:Non-compliance, Absolutely all brand. Yeah, be dealing with Noncompliance, absolutely All brands. Yeah, I'm going to be the roughest guess he's had, for sure this will definitely be just a feel of what we're about to get into I promise To just you know, be nuanced in this conversation To be nuanced in this conversation.
Speaker 3:That's all.
Speaker 1:It's just a playful thing to say here that we will talk about religion, politics, social norms and pop culture here, obviously with a Christian spiritual bit. How you feeling today, bro?
Speaker 3:Man, I'm feeling good. Man, I'm here with you, big bro. Yeah, man, I don't even wait, hold on, hold on, how old are we?
Speaker 1:That is nobody in this Nuance Conversation business.
Speaker 2:Great, great, great, we 40 ish.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 40 ish. Uh, at that point where you're too young to be old, too old to be young.
Speaker 3:Yeah, um, I'm saying that cause I call him big bro, because literally he's bigger than me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's it. That's it, ladies, and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with the, the um or lymph on earth. He's a genius.
Speaker 2:I'm like nervous to even be here, bro.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you nervous. That's funny. Tell us what you've been up to lately man, you know what.
Speaker 3:So I think this is so interesting because, as you know, I kind of been off the scene for a second, and that happened because my dad died and my mom passed away. A lot of people don't know that. You know I went through some personal stuff as well, endured a separation and then, you know, just rebounded from that and now I'm back. You know pastoring. I got a conference coming up, my first conference that I'm doing. Of course I've been a dad, yeah.
Speaker 1:Let's not slip through that, because we want to plug that yes, even though it is maybe aired later, but we still want to plug the Pivot Conference.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, because the Pivot Conference is a part of a bigger thing which is the Fisher brand. Yeah, so I've been working on the Fisher brand, my LLC, where I'm a branding consultant, so I do my best to try to help people take what it is they're doing and make it marketable you know, especially in the area of social media and especially like with the religious space, because you know folks is just posting stuff and I'm like the angle is horrible.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know so. Anyway, yeah, so the Fisher brand, I've been working on that, my CDC been working on that couple of grants that we received, so we do a mentor program and then, of course, pastor in Greater Zion, which now is in two locations and we're actually getting ready to expand to two more.
Speaker 1:Wow yeah, where would those be?
Speaker 3:The next location is going to be Santa Clarita, so so it'll be a GZ Santa Clarita, so it'll be a GZ Santa Clarita, and then it'll be a GZ Houston.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What does that look like?
Speaker 3:It does not look like me doing it for sure. I'm actually taking a page out of the friends that you have you know what I'm saying, the ones that are our clear cousins, and just sending out campus pastors that share the heart, but we all kind of like share from the same menu, so them knowing like what the theme is every year, knowing kind of what I'm focusing on each month and then, but of course, allowing them and the spirit to cook up something on their own. So I have a campus pastor in Corona. So GZ Corona is off of actually Compton Avenue in Ontario, ironically, ironically, pastor Jay Bolden. He's doing a great job so he leads that. I'm going to name the campus pastor for Santa Clarita in December of this year, pastor for Santa Clarita in December of this year, and then we're actually merging with another pastor in Houston that has always been an ally of GZ but he sees the significance, I guess, of coming together and saying, hey, man, I'll be the campus pastor and I don't want to do the day to day work stuff.
Speaker 1:So that's powerful man, Great model for taking and expanding the kingdom, especially in Los Angeles.
Speaker 3:Following you, bro, cause you're doing two churches. Yeah, we're trying, yeah. We're trying and you're the one doing it. Yeah, that's crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what you're doing is a more healthy model, uh, for, for a lot of reasons. For a lot of reasons, not just mentally and physically and task wise, but also kingdom wise. Um, because it lot of reasons, not just mentally and physically and task-wise, but also kingdom-wise, because it is brand-centered, not personality-centered, correct, even though you are the shaper of all that, you're empowering other men and women as leaders of these campuses, to do the work of ministry. We're going to dive more into that, but I think it'll be great to learn more about you. You're originally from Los Angeles. Tell us about growing up, your childhood and, ultimately, your profession of faith in Jesus Christ.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So first of all, everyone that's listening, let me tell you something. Pastor Hurt, don't tell you nothing that you're getting yourself into. I have no idea how this conversation is going to go here. We are about to dive into my childhood and he's just sitting here. Do y'all video this, do you? Are you going to show this On YouTube? Alright, you're going to exit out the flip-flops.
Speaker 2:You're going to show it on YouTube.
Speaker 1:Flip-flops are going down man, that's how we rock it.
Speaker 2:You see how much he's enjoying this right now.
Speaker 3:Okay, he about to doctor film me All right, anyway. Not at all. So I was born here in Inglewood, california, at a hospital that don't even exist anymore Daniel Freeman, daniel Freeman.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Daniel Freeman Hospital and then, of course, grew up in Carson, california, which was adjacent to Compton, california, and then grew up, of course, at Little Zion Missionary Baptist Church, where my father established that church, which is the first black church in Compton, and he I mean we'll get into that too. His father, which founded 103rd Street Baptist Church in Watts, moves it to Lime Avenue on the east side of Compton and now calls it Citizen of Zion, where BT Newman was the pastor. And so I grew up in Little Zion and grew up in Carson. My family is from Compton, so of course I spent a lot of time in Compton as well.
Speaker 1:I was Compton growing up because I know there was a shift in it. How was it growing up when?
Speaker 3:you were growing up. Well, you know what, man? It's crazy because you know people that are from the outside looking in. They think that people that grew up around that area Compton Watts, carson, all of that that we have these horrible memories of you know being shot at every five minutes. Actually, man, I can smell the grass on Saturday. You know of the gardener, you know, or whoever is cutting the grass. It's hot, ain't? Nobody got no air? Everybody outside. And yeah, you got people walk down the street with their 40s you know, but they're like what's up little you know whatever.
Speaker 3:So I mean you did know the blocks that you weren't supposed to be on Right. The main problem was the police and we've cleaned that up for a good part. But the main part and the part that was violent was really the police, not so much the gangs as much as it was the police. And so growing up in that it was a very tight knit city and people don't notice about Compton. It still is a very tight knit city. They honor families that were there from like conception when black people moved there.
Speaker 3:So the Fisher name, the Fisher family, the legacy there is strong in Compton. Many of the leaders came through Little Zion. Of course the church was the first black church there and so growing up I have nothing but great memories. Unfortunately, of course, growing up in LA period you go through your tragedies. I've had friends shot and killed right there on Crenshaw where the Pontiac dealership used to be, across from the Wienerschnitzel where they filmed the Boys in the Hood. I think out of 10 of my friends that I had, I want to say maybe one is alive.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so unfortunately I've endured all of that, but for the most part I have nothing but great memories of growing up in Compton Carson, los Angeles.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think people are not aware. Like home is home. Yeah, like, and memories are eclectic. You know there are bad memories and there's good memories. That's true of the suburbs, that's true if you were built in a gated community and we see what happened with a famous rap mogul and his home and his kids. Tragedy seeps in in different ways and various ways, but you know you're growing up in the midst of it. That's not how you process it. Yeah, you remember the friendships, the relationships. You work through those bad moments and you look back and many people survive it and become better. Some get caught up in it and not better, but you still love them equally. You know it's still that. That love is still there.
Speaker 3:I wouldn't say equally, but the love is still there for the roots and the memories when you know I grew up understanding that you know the sense of community, you know so and understanding the code of what people that are outside of our community don't understand. So on TV and on the news it just looks like random people is just being gunned down every day, and while that does happen right, we do know that for the most part we also understand, if you grew up in LA or South side Chicago or wherever. You understand the code of the streets too, you do. And a lot of times, those things that people felt like we have to always duck and dodge. You knew how to walk it. You knew how to move.
Speaker 1:You knew how to move.
Speaker 2:Like they knew who I was.
Speaker 3:They knew you the preacher kid. No, you can't come, don't come over right now. Yeah, you too anointed.
Speaker 1:You know, there was like your daddy going to kill us, yeah, and if you got a basketball player that's progressing, you can't come you shield them.
Speaker 3:You stay over there. Yeah, you got a future.
Speaker 1:You always have that reality of it when you think about the church life growing up, not just in Compton but in LA in general. Can you speak a little bit about that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I think that LA now has changed tremendously compared to the LA culture that I grew up in. So all I can remember, of course with my dad and shout out to Dr W Jerome Fisher he's in heaven, you know, reaping his reward.
Speaker 3:But he was a legend, right. So I was fortunate to hang out with other legends. You know Dr EV Hill, you know Dr Henry Lyons when he was the president of the National Baptist Convention and stuff like that, but in Los Angeles during that time of like the late 80s, which is where I start remembering into like the mid 90s man.
Speaker 3:There was such a level of camaraderie and family and brotherhood amongst the clergy and the churches. So any given Sunday, first of all, you went to church every Sunday, all day, as you know, yeah, eight, everybody had a seven.
Speaker 3:Third. Everyone had an early morning service, a mid morning service and an afternoon service, right, and so I just remember coming up church, being church Folks came in there to have it. They breaking out, they shouting, they having a great time. Then you leave from there and you're going to go to somebody's church and it's four of the churches on, it's packed, you can't get in there. It's hot, no AC, but you excited to be there because your choir going to kill, yeah, you know. And then you heard other pastors preach and you excited to hear them because, you know, while you knew your pastor could deliver the word, you also knew that you could get a word from them as well.
Speaker 3:So, coming up in the climate of LA many revivals, a lot of concerts, fellowship afternoon programs, pastoral anniversaries. I feel like LA was like jumping when it came about church. But of course that was a generation that during that time they were in the helm and in the driver's seat of the culture and all of them were descendants of Louisiana, texas, the Midwest, down south that migrated out here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you got one or two, maybe max three generations of Southern people. So you basically got the Southern hospitality and fellowship people, so you basically got the Southern hospitality and fellowship. That's a very introspective, intelligent way to look at it when you think about changing because now you've got four or five, six generations separate from that social norm to the more city life concept and I think LA my dad said that you know LA has always been the playboy city, right, Hollywood, we all know that.
Speaker 3:It deals with, of course, the spiritual entity that's over it, that's about glamour and, you know, partying and it in LA, to the numbers in people's churches down South and back East, especially down South because they're still closed on Sunday and stuff like that. La, there's a zillion things to do.
Speaker 3:So if someone decides to not go to the zillion things to come and hear you preach, get on up there and be appreciative because they bypass 17 things to fill up. They scheduled to come and listen to you for two hours or whatever. So but I think that the old generation that came from the South and honored that old school coming up, they've passed away and then a lot of them have moved back. A lot of them are retired.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we're, we're, we're now with the generation that all they know is to go have fun. So I think that's why the climate has shifted a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's, that's absolutely right. You're uniquely gifted and talented and you're in church. What was the metamorphosis process of hey, I'm here with people but I'm also, like, have these unique abilities? Were you like that kid that was standing on the on the yellow pages doing stuff, or you were you laid back for a while and had to force it out of you? I think I know the answer, but I'll go ahead and just play along with the question.
Speaker 3:So I mean this is infamous. Every teacher always told my mom Michael is such a great student, he's a studier. I mean he's going to get the homework done. He's a joy to have in a class. If we could just get him to just be quiet and stop disturbing everybody else with his jokes Really, you know that would be great. So my report card used to be, you know, A-S.
Speaker 1:Yes, we had threes in Detroit. So yeah, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:So, it was like you know, I got great grades academically but that whole like compliant to like sitting in class and being still or being quiet, it's not that I think for a second. They try to say I had like 80 D or something like that, but my mom was like he ain't got no 80. He didn't sit in the high end Today you'd be on medicine and stuff For sure, right.
Speaker 3:So I always thought I was a superhero. I always believed in like superpowers. I always thought that you know we were something greater than you know who we really were. You know that. We just need to tap into it and find out. I always wanted to be a mutant, you know. I always thought I was you know, cyclops or somebody you know, wolverine. So you take that personality right and then you take it to church and then you plug that personality into the narrative of a supernatural God that says that you can do supernatural things. And voila, then you get me. And so I always had a problem with people that were going to church to all become clones of each other. I just always had a problem with it. So I was always like, why, what does that mean? Clones of each other? Like, I always had a problem with people that would come to church and all of a sudden, you know you don't dress like that. You know, you know you can't stand suits.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know. But now, all of a sudden, you forcing yourself to get in a suit, you know, so that the, the, the people, the deacons and stuff will pat you on the back and say, oh, look at you, I see a change, yeah, yeah, yeah, um. So I always had a problem with that and I used to always ask my dad, like why do we do that, why, why, why do we do that, why? And I mean there would be several times. My dad would just be like michael, will you just please, just please, be quiet. But I always kind of resisted the norm All ways. You know I would be like I don't understand. Why do I have to put this armband on my arm?
Speaker 3:I mean I would do it if you explain it to me. But I never was the kid that would just do it, just because you said so, yeah, yeah. So that has always been me. And then my father taught me a long time ago Every gift that you have comes from God and so you should use it. So I decided to do that, even though I started preaching and pastors and preachers would tell me stop doing that, you can't sing, you can't dance, choreography and all of that stuff. And I was like, well, god gave it to me. You mad because you can't, so I'm going to do it anyway, right, yeah, so I've always been that kid, always, bro.
Speaker 1:What was your first time? You can remember doing something in church, up front and getting that, you know, getting that feeling of satisfaction, that joy for doing it and seeing people engage in it, and because part of what we do is connected to how we can make others feel in light of what we do as well, um, when was your first time um having that feeling?
Speaker 3:um, okay. So it's weird because for me in church, I don't think I ever have received the feeling of like, like, oh, look at how you know how this is making them feel, because I'm always like terrified about but did I please God? Right. And even when I was a little boy, my first time that I got up to give a theme speech was like I was eight years old and I remember talking from Genesis, chapter one, in the beginning, and I can't really remember it all to this day, but I do remember people shouting and running out the church and from that moment forward, thinking like, oh, this is, this is pretty powerful.
Speaker 3:You know, like when you talk about God, you know and you talk about him, right that you know. Like when you talk about God, you know and you talk about him, right that you know the people like experience something I can put into words then, but I actually ran from it from that moment. Really, yeah, yeah, yeah, cause I was just like that's too much pressure and then, everyone at the church like you're going to be just like your daddy. Oh, I knew you was called.
Speaker 3:God's got great things in your life. I'm like, okay, y'all doing way too much. I'm just in the second grade.
Speaker 2:So I haven't, from that time forward, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:They like you know, we want to ask your son to do we want you to do the welcome, we want you to do the response to the welcome we want you to do. We want you to be the theme speaker. You know, and I was like, no, I don't want to do it. Mom, you know, we want you to be in a play. I don't want to do it. So after that one time I actually went in my shell for a second.
Speaker 1:Musically. What was your first interaction?
Speaker 3:First time was I sung at a school play and I sung Amazing Grace, how Sweet the Sound. And I remember being nervous and when I got up there I closed my eyes and with all I had, you know, I just belted it out and the people just like started applauding. My whole family sings, my dad sings, all my sisters and brothers on my dad's side, they all sing. My oldest sister she's passed away but she was one of the writers and founders of the group War oh, wow, yeah, yeah, yeah. So she wrote the song S, the song slipping in the darkness, um, and she wrote the song war. And so you know, listening to them sing, you know you're really nervous. Uh, you kind of feel like you're coming up in the gospel Jackson's, yeah, Um. But I belted it out and you know, and they gave me an applause and did a whole set of ovation and everything. Now that was when I said, oh, I like this feeling. Okay, yeah, I like that.
Speaker 3:So then from there they started having me lead in a children's choir, at the church, of course, and then I would do the pageants that they had at the school and yeah, but I even in in singing I didn't like ever say I never liked singing, like the slow stuff, you know, like the traditional stuff I was always attracted to. I mean, we're in the generation of the michael jackson's prince janet, um. So I wanted to do that. I knew I could dance and I wanted to always be an artist that could like sing and dance like straight out eight counts. And so that didn't happen until I got older.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's my next question. Like what? How are you marrying those in context of church? But you just said it didn't happen until you get older. Was you ever given an opportunity to then suppress, or you just never? It never, just never flowed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I mean, it was never. It was frowned upon to do all that dancing in church, especially if you were a guy, you know. So I mean it was like absolutely not, you know. So I suppressed it for a long time. I suppressed it until I got a record deal Shep Crawford, who's now a pastor, pastor Shep Crawford.
Speaker 3:But when I met him he was still a mega producer who produced for Tamia and Deborah Cox and all of them, um, and at that moment, um, he was doing something with the background dancers for a show. I had coming up and like, I learned the A count. And he was like yo, you can dance. And I was like, yeah, and he was like why don't you? And I was like because they tell me I'm not supposed to. You know, I'm a pastor and all of that. And so he was like you know what? Go ahead, dance. So he wrote a track and I danced to it and from there I started becoming this artist, j Kingdom. And there is where I let that be the outlet for that, you know, singing and dancing, full on choreography. And people were actually shocked that I could do it. Yeah, and I can, and I can maintain my breath and I can sing, while it's no tracks, like I'm. If you look on YouTube and you see those moments, I'm singing full on Mike.
Speaker 1:Mike is on and dancing, so we can go to J kingdom on YouTube and you'll you'll see all this good stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There is the. You know you're five tool Christian, you know. So we got the singing and the speaking, but ultimately we'll get the pastoring. But let's talk about preaching. How old were you when you first initially felt the call, accepted the call in trial sermon? Um, how old were you? Trial sermon was 18. Yeah, you've been preaching since 18 too. Yep, 18. Dang man, we got a lot in common. How old are you? Uh, trial sermon was 18. Yeah, yeah, you've been preaching since 18 too, yep, 18.
Speaker 2:Hey man, we got a lot in common.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I okay. So I eight years old when I did that thing was when I kind of felt like I think I'm gonna be a preacher.
Speaker 1:I think at the first time I felt that it was like eight. Yeah, it was where I think it was at a.
Speaker 3:it was at a funeral, it was at the funeral yeah, I was like yeah, I think I'm gonna be a preacher. And I was like and that's completely not what I want to do. I'm like completely hurt. I'm like are you kidding me?
Speaker 3:no way, that's gonna be, that's gonna suck yeah you know, so I I suppressed that around 16, though. Um, I just started feeling, though, the need to like speak again. Yeah, um, and to to preach his word. I was very clear on that. Like I started looking at the pulpit, you know saying, and it's like um, I don't lie, no on, thundercats. Know where the sword starts, like calling your name.
Speaker 3:So, I started looking at the pulpit and I started kind of feeling like I'm supposed to be up there and I was like, oh no, I'm good, I'm straight, especially at 16. I was out and about doing all manners of sin and enjoying it, you know. But at 18, the Lord basically shut down. Everything in my life Went to a revival. Pastor Kevin Hall was preaching and I knew that I was starting to really feel called to preach, because I don't know if this happened to you, but you could listen to preachers and you kind of be like, oh, if you say this, like they're going to go crazy and then, they not say it.
Speaker 3:And then?
Speaker 2:you'd be like oh man, that's why.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you get very analytical. So for me it was a lot of subconscious stuff going on. Where I was, you know 13 and 14 going to revivals, not even know what called a preacher. Being a preacher meant I just wanted to hear and analyze preaching. So when everybody else was asleep I was listening. I was being analytical. I have set my my, my cassette, I said my radio, I manipulated my cassette player to that's what I woke up to preaching. So I was listening to the tapes. My friendships evolved after meeting people they're preaching. But never in my mind that I knew the vernacular or jargon right, well enough to know, oh, this is a call, right, this is where you're like. But it was definitely that feeling. But it wasn't too long until I realized like, oh, you get up in church and you tell people, you set the call, you preach a child sermon. So I didn't really know what to do with all that. But I was just enjoying doing it Right, with no, you know, plans of expanding more than born in that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so my deal that I made with God as I started. I had two jobs at the time. They were great, I had a car and everything. So I was living the best life ever. And the guest evangelist told me the year before, when I was 17. He was like there's a call on your life. And I was like here you go with this spooky stuff, you know. So I knew he was going to come this year and do that stuff again, so I told my dad I had to work so I wouldn't have to pick him up. And on Monday they fired me.
Speaker 1:I walked in. I walked in. The psalmist says yes, god is real Bruh.
Speaker 3:I walked in on Monday and they was like yeah, can we see you for a minute? Sure, I was a supervisor too. I walked in on Monday and they was like yeah, can we see you for a minute? Sure, I was a supervisor too. Then they walked in and he said, yeah, budget restraints, it's just hard around here. So we had to choose between you and this other guy that was working there, but he was there like 10 years before me. They was like so we're going to let you go. You know he don't have a family. You have a family, your mom, your dad, you'll be fine.
Speaker 3:So I got fired and, um, I was like all right, whatever you know. And so I went to my other job, which was at Bank of America, and, uh, they did a massive layoff. So I got fired on Monday for my first job. Tuesday, I got fired from Bank of America. Um, I still wasn't gonna go to the revival, right? My, my family didn't know. I got fired, and so I was just going to hang out every night. I had my own car, and then my car just stopped running. This is not a lie, I'm not gassing this.
Speaker 2:This is exactly what happened.
Speaker 3:I tell this story all the time. The car stops running, bro, and so I'm sitting here like you got to be kidding me. So Friday, huge party was happening, um, and all my friends normally roll with me. They was like, hey, you know you're gonna pick us up. I was like, yeah, I am. And um, I had an appointment too, because that day I wanted to get a couple of piercings. Um, so I was gonna go hang out, drink, get some piercings, come back. Shock my parents, you know that whole thing. And so I asked my dad. I was like I need to use the car, can I use the car? And my dad was like sure, son, he's like one condition you got to go pick up the preacher first, you got to come to church tonight and then you can use the car afterwards.
Speaker 3:I was like all right, fine, whatever so, and then you can use the car afterwards. I was like all right, fine, whatever so. I told him I was like, yeah, I got to go to church. It's dumb, you know. I'll call y'all as soon as I get back home. We'll hook up. Afterwards. Picked the preacher up. The entire time he looked at me and was like you can't run, we're on the 110 freeway. He was staying at the Torrance Marriott, we're on the 110. He's like you know, son, you can't run, You're about to run out.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 3:I'm sitting there like amen, you know, trying to be respectful.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:Okay, get there. He preaches a sermon about Jonah and you know how God will take you and he will create an entire situation to engulf you. If you just don't say yes, right, and the Holy Spirit hit me, man. And next thing I know I was walking down the middle aisle and I get to the middle aisle my dad comes down, like the church is packed, and my dad kind of looks at me, kind of like he knows he was like son, like what are you down here for? And I'm like I'm accepting my call to preach. Wow, church goes crazy. Wow, my dad speaks in tongues.
Speaker 2:Wow, Now, my dad was a traditional Baptist pastor.
Speaker 3:I didn't even know he could do that. My dad's, like I, was like what is happening? What? Look at you, you know. And he runs up the middle aisle. But the deal was that I made with God I will preach. So when I said I accepted my call to preach, I meant preach a sermon one.
Speaker 1:I was like okay.
Speaker 3:I will preach this sermon that I had in my spirit, revelation, chapter 3, and then, when I'm done, you're done, you'll let me go back right. Right, I mean, you know, god don't never say nothing. He's just kind of like sure, yeah, that's exactly what's going to happen, of course.
Speaker 1:It's always great to negotiate with sovereignty.
Speaker 3:I've been preaching ever since I'm going on what? 25 or 27 years, something like that, yeah, 27 years preaching, yeah, ever since then. February 6th 1998, 10 o'clock PM was when I got drafted into this Wow, yeah, and that's how that happened.
Speaker 1:How long before you preach your first sermon after that, the?
Speaker 3:next month. The next month, bruh, my dad, shouts and speaks in tongues. Church is going up. At the end of the service he says and all of y'all, come back March 1st. And I'm sitting there like what and we'll get into later about how my dad used to do this spontaneous stuff with me and it would tick me off because that's how I became a pastor. But in this particular story he gets up and he's like oh y'all, come back March 1st. He, this particular story.
Speaker 2:He gets up and he's like oh, y'all, come back March 1st he's going to deliver his first sermon. I'm like are you kidding? What the heck.
Speaker 1:What sermon was that? That was the Revelation 3 sermon.
Speaker 3:Revelation, chapter 3. Revelation, chapter 3. Church of Sardis. I think it is, and my subject was playtime is over and the irony.
Speaker 3:And and everybody came out that night I was scared to death. The whole city was in the room, bro, like Little Zion, which is the name of the church. Then Imagine, bro, like people outside right, chairs down every aisle, like chairs in the front of the aisle, preachers in the old pulpit, like crammed together, like there was nowhere to move. They're all here to hear Fisher's boy, you know, deliver his first sermon. Anyway, it went well. I hooped, I hooped and, surprisingly, I didn't think I was going to and that's what everyone was waiting on, you know, because my dad was, you know, a driver and I did, and I walked the aisles and everything like skipping down the aisles and hollering, yeah, because there's only one sermon you're gonna preach, so might as well get it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, hold back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, I just said, I sold it all I preached like for like 45 minutes first, something usually first, something like 15, 20 minutes, 10, 15 minutes, 45 minutes.
Speaker 2:I was in it people shouting time is like 15, 20 minutes, 15 minutes, 45 minutes. I was in it.
Speaker 3:People shouting, they running down the Alamo, people shout, to the point where you got to give them peppermints.
Speaker 2:you know cause they they they sugar low, right.
Speaker 3:And uh, I'm done Right. And then then the Lord gives me another scripture and I'm just like and then the Lord gives me another scripture and I'm just like, oh, he's like yeah, I want you to preach this next. And then my dad gets up and says y'all come back next Sunday he's going to preach the 11 o'clock service. And literally heart, I've been preaching almost every week since March 1st 1998.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, every week, sometimes more than once a week, obviously, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. What was some of the challenges? Now you know and this happens a lot when you get called to preach, god just, and people don't understand that preachers are imperfect, god doesn't really give us dislike.
Speaker 2:Now I want you to get your character together and I want you to be able to have your discipline together and then after that. No, you're going to do it now and you'll learn on the job.
Speaker 1:It's like go in there and make the burgers. Where's my training? No training Make the burgers If people don't understand.
Speaker 2:Like yeah, I never cooked before. Yeah, you're blaming me for the stuff I'm doing. Like he was the one that blame him. I was telling him that's the thing I was saying to God. Like I can't do this.
Speaker 3:I told him specifically, like I legitimately yeah, the challenges, bro, was exactly what you're talking about, right, was that I just got thrown all the responsibilities. No one took the time to train me to do anything. Actually, looking back was like hurtful. Actually, my dad I understand why my dad did it later because my father didn't want to be charged with oh you, you did this. So my dad intentionally took his hands off of me when I started preaching. He wouldn't help me with sermon prep, nothing. I was on my own.
Speaker 3:And then the preachers that were associate ministers at the church at the time they all left. Literally the next Sunday there was nobody there, and so I had to learn how to conduct the pulpit. I had learned how to, um, lead the church, you know, I became now suddenly the preacher that my dad would throw it to if he was going out of town. Um, all of it, and no one was telling me what to do, bro. It literally just learning how to pray, listen to God and being okay, god, I think this is what you're saying, so I'm just going to try it. And on top of that, the moral failures you know, like you got to give up sex.
Speaker 3:That's. That's crazy Like.
Speaker 2:I was like that's that's insane.
Speaker 3:You know, like I haven't been a virgin since I was like 12. No, so dealing with those struggles smoking, weed, drinking still partying clubbing.
Speaker 1:I was 18, as you know being young, but because of who?
Speaker 3:my dad was right. A lot of places I would go that I had no minutes being. His members would be there. People would be there. That knew me. So the challenge was that I would fall with eyes on me and then I still had to stand up and preach. You know, it was a. It was a struggle. The church gave me no grace. They automatically assume, of course, I'm a pastor's kid, so that's how y'all act. And just trying to find this thing out on my own, being over a youth ministry on my own. Nobody told me how to do that. No one told me you know how to be a youth pastor? That was a brand new position in Little Zion at the time. Brand new position in the in little Zion at the time. Uh, so everything you guys see me do and everything I've done literally was just following God, trusting his voice, because I did. I did not have help. Who?
Speaker 1:was the other pastors, being from a distance and preachers or up close that you looked up to in those early ages and early stages?
Speaker 3:Um, during that time, because I'm a Baptist boy, so Dr J Benjamin Hardwick, still my aunt, you know, love him, To know him is to love him, so I looked up to him, of course. Praises of Zion and Western.
Speaker 3:Baptist State Convention, and I of course praises Zion and Western Baptist State Convention, and I of course admired Noah Jones Bishop Noah Jones who at that time in the late 90s he was just killing LA, you know. I looked up to Bishop Homer who is now my spiritual father, ironically, and there's a story in that too, um and, and during that time I looked up to Pastor Xavier Thompson, because I think he was like 23 or something like that and he was a young pastor doing it and of course, pastor HB Charles Now HB Charles' dad and my dad were like best friends.
Speaker 3:So, Pastor HB Charles and I and Pastor Monroe. We would all hang out when our parents would come over to each other's houses. Pastor HB Charles gave me my first book, and that's when his office was in the basement you know underneath and um gave me the first book and from time to time he would call and check on me just to make sure I was okay, cause he understood the pressure I was under. Um, but those are kind of the guys locally that I that I did look up to yeah, thanks for sharing that.
Speaker 1:Now let's go into the journey of becoming pastor. Yes, prison, but before we do that, you mentioned something and I think we need to come back and have a bigger conversation about that. I just I'm preaching on divorce. I'm in the midst of a series called I Can't Believe the Pastor's Talking About this. I love it. So we talked about rape and sexual assault one Sunday that's good Grief, loneliness. Last Sunday was suicide. This Sunday is divorce, and you mentioned about, you know, being a virgin and things of that nature. And in part of the sermon on suicide I spoke directly to the LGBTQIA plus community as it relates to knowing the suicide rate that's connected to that community and the church being liable and contributing to that ever-growing, constantly growing rate amongst that community.
Speaker 1:And in that also I acknowledge to that group. I tell the church I'm not talking to you, so you know you're not going to like what I'm you um. So you know this ain't, you're not gonna like what I'm about to say. So, right, this ain't for you anyway. So, um, only, if you do it, I don't care anyway, right, but um, that the church fell to.
Speaker 1:We love to talk about those sins, but we don't talk about sexuality in general correct. And then, as adults, we still struggle with about sexuality in general Correct. And then, as adults, we still struggle with what sexuality in general is, even though you may not struggle in that category. That's so taboo socially, in church, not as much in the world as it used to be, but the world acts like they never. Was there either too Like you know, that's always interesting as well. Was there either too, like you know that that's always interesting as well. But, um, as it relates to young people and the church and dealing with sexuality, is that something you've thought about, something you've addressed? Um, and and another point that I made in this, the sexual assault sermon is that we string people to make sure that they don't have any charges, but we don't teach the kids that we're stringing how to identify predators and overcome. Is that something that you've ever formally talked about or formally thought about how to address with young people, cause you have such a powerful and prolific voice among young Christians?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so my ministry has always been transparent and it's funny because, as I am, I don't want to call it coming back on a scene. That's crazy, right, I've always been here, right. But it does seem like God seems to be just lately kind of rebranding me, you know, or like just bringing me back amongst everybody. We've been on the radio the other day and all of that good stuff, anyway. Anywho, one of the things that I told the Lord was like, okay, we're going to do this, then we do this with full transparency. So, with what you just asked, I have addressed it, I have talked about it. You know, I have myself gone through being, you know, assaulted, you know, and and the things that comes with that, you know, and I have been. I had a nephew who he passed away, and he was a part of the community and I watched the church shun him, even family shun him in the worst way and I just didn't see the grace and the love of God.
Speaker 3:And so what I've done is I have created a very open and transparent culture at Greater Zion that it doesn't matter what you're dealing with, no matter what your struggles might be. Here is a safe space for you to process through that. However, please understand, we also want to transform you right. So we are not an affirming church. We're not an affirming ministry of any sin, right. We don't want to make that sin firm. However, we are accepting of the person who is processing through that sin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I use that exact language. I use that exact language. We are non-affirming but we're accepting. And then I said you know I offer myself personally. And then I said you know I offer myself personally. Hey, if you're looking for a safe place to struggle through these things with and you don't ever have to leave the community, but if you're willing to struggle through these things, I'm going to be that safe place. I want to be that trusted, that trusted friend.
Speaker 1:A lot of people don't understand, like you know, when you start making these statements. A lot of people that are saying amen to the Adam and Eve and that Adam and Steve are disguised amens of, who are dealing with those similar struggles. And until you have, well, thank you for sharing that and thank you for the work you've done in that because, like I said in the suicide sermon, when you love people, you don't know who life you just saved Right by just saying the person that's fully aware of their mistakes, fully aware of their mistakes, is the person who made the mistake Right. So, when the person, when I see you make a mistake and I highlight it further be it publicly or privately, you're just enhancing what's already in me, thus leading me to this place of turmoil that eventually leads people to either attempting or taking their own life or living in this constant struggle of those suicidal thoughts which leads to violence, sometimes towards other people, and so I mean that's such a significant thing. One of the reasons why I wanted to do this series is because any all right is appropriate and needed. People need that. People need the Lord is my shepherd. People need, you know, weep and endure for a night, enjoy coming in the morning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but most of us spend the majority of our life walking down the lane of how do I deal with me? Yeah, and born in sin, shaping in iniquity. You know, I think of John nine and we throw the man born blind parents under the bus because they said talk to him, he's of age. Yeah, but we fail to forget. Like they're saying he's of age because they have talk to him, he's of age, but we fail to forget. Like they're saying he's of age because they have been addressing these for probably 18, 19, 20 years and now they're saying he's at the age of accountability. We've walked through that, yeah, and the person that have never, you know, loved a special needs child yeah, wouldn't understand the empathy for that statement that they make.
Speaker 3:I think that is. You know, I love that whole concept of like living in the nuance, understanding that everything is not black and white, right, and then they love to use the Bible, very ignorantly, to try to prove the point that it is right but it's not. You know, you have moments that are very black and white. Right, you have an encounter with the Lord. You know, have moments that are very black and white. Right, you have an encounter with the lord. You know, something has happened, conviction has awakened you. But that process of walking that thing out, though, that's going to take a little bit longer that's the part that people get confused about.
Speaker 1:Black and white, like it could be black and white, yes, but I'm not so walking out. That which is black and white becomes nuanced, becomes. Well, you know, it's crazy not to cut you off.
Speaker 3:Here's the thing that's that's interesting about it is because we love to preach that initial moment when that black and white moment happens. So, for example, right the woman caught in the act of adultery. And then he says where are your accusers?
Speaker 3:They're not here, great. So she's done Right. And he says go and sin no more. Now it becomes gray. We already know how she did when she left. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, I mean, she lived a whole life of obviously fooling around with men, you know? Was she successful in that? Was she not right?
Speaker 3:And the reason why I think it's left vague like that is because it goes back to what we're talking about, that these encounters they are black and white. It's like God showed up. God showed you your potential, god spoke to your need. God did give you the power to you know, to raise yourself back up so you won't jump off a bridge, you won't kill yourself.
Speaker 3:But I think the other part of it that has to be preached is but when you leave this church and when you leave this altar, experience and you go and try to walk this thing out of, go and sin no more. It's not going to be as black and white. There's not going to be that easy and for me that has been the core of my ministry. I have, if anyone has ever, because I get titled with like here come Fisher, here he come with this. You know he hate the church and this, that and the other, and it's really not. That's not the truth. I hate the pretentiousness that we find in church. I hate even more the pretentiousness that we find in church. I hate even more the pretentiousness that we find in preachers.
Speaker 3:And so what people get from me, the tone that they get from me, is this lack of transparency. You know so when we see people in these churches and we tell them now you get up and don't touch it again, you know good and well that that's not necessarily the case. How do you know, pastor, because you haven't gone and not touched it again. Yeah, you know. So I think that when we have these conversations, this is when we get into it being real. It's a real gospel, you know. So I think that when we have these conversations, this is when we get into it being real. It's a real gospel. You know it's a. It's a honest gospel, except for that and not that pretentious version of it.
Speaker 3:So I don't have a problem bringing up like my separation and going through that. It's the thing. It happens, and it happens with pastors and sometimes people don't stay together. There are pastors who have baby mamas. It's a thing. Get over it If you can sing in the choir and direct, and you got a baby mama and three baby mamas. Then he can stand up there and he can preach as well, right? So I don't have a problem talking about it. I think it needs to be talked about more and more so yeah, as you know, I always look at David.
Speaker 1:David, beautifully after Bathsheba, writes beautifully Psalm 32. Yeah, it does Cleanse me and you know, and the blessed is the name whose sins are covered. Psalm 51. Have mercy on me, o Lord Purge me with his sin, but the end of David's life. When David was sick, they said, well, they didn't bring in IVs, they didn't bring in a life, they didn't do a test. Who did they bring in? They brought in some.
Speaker 2:Persian girls To make sure, and they laid them in the bed with the king and they said come here, baby Now. Did the king try to touch you? No. And they said come here, baby Now. Did the king try to touch you?
Speaker 1:No, did the king try no, king dead y'all so obviously there was still that going on with David that the people said the way to measure if the king is alive is how they respond to virgin girls.
Speaker 2:Virgin girls.
Speaker 3:This is still the David.
Speaker 1:This is the blessed sister.
Speaker 2:man have mercy.
Speaker 1:This is still the David. This is the blessed, is the man. Have mercy Cleanse me with his.
Speaker 2:We sing all of his lyrics.
Speaker 1:Yes, that means that he was constantly being dumped and being refilled. That was you know. The woman caught in active adultery is beautiful. We can romanticize and spiritualize and think every time she was tempted. She thought about how Jesus loved her and she couldn't go in there because you know.
Speaker 3:But, how about? What kept her was when she fell again. And this is all a hypothesis, so y'all don't, y'all, don't kill her, don't kill me. But what if she fell again? And what got her through it was the statement of where your accusers, where your accusers accusers.
Speaker 1:I'm just saying and the person that could accuse you, the only person in human history that could accuse you based off of that criteria, did not? Yeah, absolutely. And so that brings you back home, as it brings the prodigal son ultimately back home to his dad. Well, pastoring, you have been pastoring how long now?
Speaker 3:I've been pastoring. Next year will be 20 years 20 years 20 years, bro, that's a long time.
Speaker 1:How did that happen?
Speaker 3:So not to hear a story, here I go. Same guy I was talking about 10 minutes ago, dr David Jones Fisher and his finality. I go to church the third Sunday in March of 2004. It is his birthday celebration. He is bringing in Pastor Mark Williams from.
Speaker 2:Faith.
Speaker 3:Fellowship, corona and a lot's going on. This day, something unusual is in the house, because that day my dad gets convicted of the Holy Spirit and decides to let the woman preacher that was Pastor Mark's associate pastor to come in the pulpit. We lose it because we're like what God is in the building. I'm like, dad, are you about to die today? You know like that's just unheard of in the traditional baptist church, especially back in 2004. Right, anyway, if pastor mark preaches, he gets finished. My dad gets up and says I got another announcement. He was like oh, son, stand up. So I stand up. He was like um, um, I found, I found our next pastor, right, so I'm looking like thank god, I'm ready to go.
Speaker 3:You know I wanted to go to morehouse college. You know, um, I was finishing up at cal state, long beach, so I was like I'll transfer. You know I'm about to go live my life. Uh, because I only stayed, stayed back to help my dad.
Speaker 3:But now that he got help he's Shata, right, and he says it's him. It's my son. Yeah, michael, you're the pastor. You're the pastor. I looked in. I was praying the other day and I asked God to reveal to me who would take over Little Zion. And he said look through the window, through the door, and he looked through the window and he saw me vacuuming the floor.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 3:After I would go to school I would come and I would vacuum. I would straighten up the chairs. I wanted the sanctuary to look right.
Speaker 1:And young preacher, did you hear that? Young preacher? Did you hear that? Young preacher? Did you hear that? Yes, cause, the ones that get it, we'll get it by me saying that, the ones that don't get it.
Speaker 2:Never, never had it, and it ain't no hope.
Speaker 1:Right, so yeah.
Speaker 3:So and and actually I'm glad you brought that up because I do tell people selected few people when they asked me of how I became the pastor, was the holy spirit, told my dad. That's what my dad said. Any person that cares enough about coming and running the vacuum and sweeping up the sanctuary and he don't have to, and he's doing that for the people you can trust him with the church. And that was the deciding factor, not my degrees. The deciding factor wasn't my charisma when I preached. The deciding factor wasn't how I was flipping the church when I was closing it dock. The deciding factor of me becoming the pastor of a legendary church was because I was running the vacuum and straightening up chairs every single day, and so, anyway, he named me the pastor and told them, everyone that he said so. Majority of the church is here. So let's take a vote right now by the, by the bylaws, everyone that agrees that he should be the pastor stand up. Now me.
Speaker 3:I thought definitely this is where it was going to go in my favor, because I was like, yeah, they remember me, they know I don't really like them. A lot of them don't really like me, so this is going to go over. Great, they're not going to stand up. The whole church stood up. It was a unanimous decision. He was like are there any nays? I was like okay, here we go. Now somebody please? No, no, nays. He says unanimous. He pointed to sister Elthar Hargraves, who was the church secretary at the moment. She wrote it down in the minutes and then they had a note, a notary that was there, and they sealed it and then he took some masking tape and put it up over his name, over the banner. You know when they used to do those banners back in the day and say I'm no longer the pastor.
Speaker 3:As of today he is the pastor. So next Sunday when you come, he's your new pastor and sat down.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 3:And, um, that's how I became the pastor of greater Zion church family. And that's how I became the pastor of Greater Zion Church Family. And that night when we got home I had words. I was like what the heck was that you didn't discuss this with me at all. What are you doing? Are you crazy? Like I'm not ready to be nobody's pastor? Are you kidding me? Like I'm going to run this whole ship into the ground?
Speaker 3:That man looked at me and threw me the keys and said well, that's your problem now. So everyone that's listening that'd be so quick to be like, oh, I wish I was Fisher. And oh my God, he got handed the situation and silver spoon and all of that stuff. That's not how that went. I legitimately got thrown. Same thing with how I became the preacher thrown. Then it was thrown to me and then becoming the pastor, thrown to me and my dad was done.
Speaker 3:That man was finished and and rare back in his chair and watch the game and it was like you can go talk to your mama, I'm done. And he was never the pastor again. That was it, and they would call him. He was like no, he's the pastor the next year. They installed me. He got up, he preached his final sermon as the pastor and his words were I will stay here as long as I can to swim between you and the sharks. And yeah, now I had no seminary training, none at all, no seminary education, none of that. And here I am, 24 years old, pastor and one of the most notable black churches in the city of Los Angeles, in the country. I was wild, I was temperamental, you know. I was angry because this church had brought me a lot of pain, you know. And then, all of a sudden, I got to lead these people. It was crazy times.
Speaker 1:What was a turning point for you in those early years? It wasn't for a while.
Speaker 3:God was just, he was merciful, he was gracious, despite my foolery, you know, and even though I wasn't handling it right, man, the church was growing. It was just phenomenally just blowing up. Um, and I think it was one day we was at like three, four services and one day I looked out the window upstairs from my office and I saw a woman walk into church and she was on a cane and you could tell it was hard for her to walk and she was walking to church. And I said to myself that woman thinks enough of me and she trusts that I have spent time with God, that I'm going to give her what she needs to make it through another week of having to walk like that. And at that moment was when I said grow up, you know, stop being mad that you were put here and how about you be grateful that you were chosen?
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 3:And from.
Speaker 1:There it turned. What are some of the things that you start to do? That was different.
Speaker 3:Um, I started interacting with the people. You know that's the first thing. Um, I started um caring more. Um, I started um being more present and just really, you know, wanting to know the people I was pastoring and not just treating them as like a really, you know, wanting to know the people I was pastoring and not just treating them as like a gig, you know, as a preaching engagement every week, um, and that alone helped to grow and change the culture of greater Zion.
Speaker 3:Uh, the second thing was I I started to go to different fellowships and convocations and stuff so I can start to learn and expand, so that I would have the tools I needed to be able to pastor these people. I started listening again to the wisdom of my father and started seeking the wisdom of others as my dad got older, went back to school, got my master's of divinity, and I just started preparing myself and getting all the tools I needed to be able to do this right, so that that old lady and she's gone to glory now that when she walks to church, limping the way she's limping, that she's not disappointed by what she hears and what she sees from her pastor.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's crazy, man, you're there. Eventually, the church shifts the names. What's the story behind that?
Speaker 3:Bishop Kenneth C Omer is the story behind that. It's May 4th 2008 or or 2009. He comes to my anniversary. This is a good story too. This is bishop kennedy omer, bro. This is right, and I'm I'm telling everybody yo, bishop omer is getting ready to come. Let's be here on friday night, bruh. No one comes. The church doesn't come like it's empty in there. It's like 150 people sitting in there. I'm embarrassed, right, but they were a new crop of people. They didn't know about bishop armer, right? Um, anyway, he didn't care. He preached, did his thing, and then he prophesied and said you can no longer call this little, because it will only be what you call it, it's greater. And so then I went back and I talked to my dad about changing the name, and then he said he always wanted to change the name, but during his time, to take the word Baptist off would have been crucifixion for him.
Speaker 3:But, he never felt that we were ever just a traditional Baptist church because we always flowed in the different gifts and stuff. You know, my dad didn't. And so after talking to my dad and realizing that he always wanted to change the name, and then talking to Bishop Omer and Bishop Omer told me before you do anything, teach it. So that was my first time I started doing series. So up until then I was doing the whole preaching a new sermon every time I got up, which was crazy. That's so stupid. And I did a whole series on like the names, like whenever God would change someone's name and what it meant and where they were going and they forecasted this, that and the other.
Speaker 3:And when I got finished with that series I told them so we're changing our name Greater Zion Church Family, so it's still Zion greater, so we believe we do greater works. It's a church, obviously, but we're all about family community.
Speaker 1:Powerful, what has been some of the most, some of the more impactful things that you've done as relates to collaboration with the city of Compton that stands out to you in these years.
Speaker 3:Our job with the sheriffs. You know I partner with every captain that has led the sheriff's department in Compton. The Lord has granted us and me favor with most of them, thank God. We pray over them every year. We service them, we go over there and feed them during their night shift. As a result of those relationships we've been able to actually be a part of talking policy how you handle the community. We've helped them to change their language with the community when they pull people over. We've helped them to change their language with the community when they pull people over. We've gotten rid of the whole flashing the light. Pastor Tevin, that's here. That was the youth pastor. He's been with me.
Speaker 3:I don't know were you in the room with me when I made the captain apologize? He told us about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So this guy you know how the popos do around here.
Speaker 3:I was driving away from an anniversary service and my deacon was driving me in my car, my Tahoe. Yes, the windows were tinted. Yes, I have rims, yes, right. But he pulled us over but walked up to us and they walked up on us with guns drawn and was like harassing. And I was like yo, like you don't have to do all this. Shut up, get out the car. I'm in a suit. I'm like you don't have to do this, like so. Then eventually I was like you have no idea who you like are harassing right now, I don't give a kid. We were like he, yeah, you fired Like in my head. I'm like it's done, I text the captain right right.
Speaker 3:Then and it was like yeah, your deputies is over here tripping, they cussing at me, they got guns drawn, they radioed it in. He was like oh, you know what, we saw it. We, you, you drove a vehicle that looked like somebody that did a robbery. I said no, it didn't. So I called the captain and said we have to rectify this. You ain't going to just let them slide. I want a meeting. So we had a meeting, brought him in and basically, to make a long story short, the captain made his deputy apologize to me for how he conducted himself, for how he conducted himself. So things like that have helped to move the needle, at least in Compton, in how the Sheriff's Department has dealt with the community. So I think that that's significant for me because, again, going all the way back to the beginning of this interview, growing up we remember just how volatile the relationship was between police and community.
Speaker 1:Growing up in Detroit, I became familiar with Compton because of the rap scene and the musicians that come out of here. Have you had any interactions from the Kendrick Lamar's today to the whole school of?
Speaker 3:Eazy-E and so on. So I do know Eazy-E's son. You know Eazy-E was gone way before you know. And Ice Cube he goes. He doesn't really come back. But Ice Cube's not from Compton, he's originally not from Compton, yeah, but Dr Dre has done a lot of work in the city of Compton. I haven't had a chance to meet him firsthand. Kendrick and I met when they gave him the key to the city and I did the opening prayer for that, and then we worked on a couple of projects but never met.
Speaker 3:So he was a part of this series on vice I don't know what station that is but when it did a whole documentary about Compton and the evolving of Compton. So I know that we are always in the same circles, right, even though I haven't necessarily met them. But we all know of each other and I know that because some common people will be like yeah, they know who you are. Our church is just known. I mean, if you grew up in Compton, my dad did a good job in making sure that we would be a light that shines bright. So I'm proud of them, I'm proud of what they're doing, especially Kendrick Lamar man, that's just. I love how he's using his platform to speak for the people that can't speak for themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's on your plate? I know we talked about the conference earlier. What's some of the other things that you're passionate about in these coming days, weeks, months and years?
Speaker 3:Well, now coming days, weeks, months and years. Well, now that we're getting older, um, I'm passionate. I'm passionate about discipleship, man. Yeah, I don't want to do this until I'm old. I mean, I don't know your goals and everyone else's goals, but I'm not dying in the pulpit, um. So I actually want to use maybe the next 15 years 20 if they pray real hard and just know I'm praying against that but 15 years of just discipling and raising up the next generation, pouring into them the things that I've learned and preparing them to be able to take the reins and move it forward.
Speaker 3:And also with the branding piece, the Fisher brand, which you guys can go to wwwthefisherbrandcom if you need any help in branding consultation. I'm really passionate about that helping people to brand themselves so that the world as a large, the marketplace, which I believe is where the next move of God really is going to happen, will be receptive to the church. But they got to fix some stuff so that they look presentable. They slip, as shown, so, yeah, so that's what I'm passionate about, man. And then, lastly, just getting stronger and strengthening relationships like this. You know me enough to know that I can be an island real easy, you know. And for those that's listening, hurt has always been like man let's hang out, let's just stand together, even though he don't mean it.
Speaker 3:But then you know, let's hang out, and then I'm the one that's that'll pull away. But so I want to use the next like 15 years to really like reestablish those, those relationships.
Speaker 1:As I said earlier, that's some form of bullying. I'm not sure what it is. It's some form of bullying, slash, trolling, slash, you know, making stuff up. They got a word in there called lying for that, but I definitely feel that same thing as it relates to insulating yourself, using busyness not to cultivate relationships as an excuse. It's really for those as maybe listening, not understand the statement. Don't worry about it, preachers are, all we got is each other, and so when we are not in fellowship with each other, when we're not in partnership with each other and that doesn't mean coming your anniversary, exchanging checks and stuff like that, right, it means just how you doing yes, let's go get something to eat, let's laugh, let's eat, let's laugh, let's not, let's talk about ministry. Then sometimes, let's not talk about ministry, let's talk about life, let's sometimes not talk about life and um, being more conscious and doing that because it's easy for us to use preaching, counseling, pastoring, x, y, z, all these other endeavors as an excuse and as an escape.
Speaker 3:Excuse and escape Because we're all going through the same thing. We're going through the same thing and you don't really realize how much you need the preacher until it's your turn. And every preacher, if you are listening, you will have a turn. It's never if. It's never if. It's never if and that's what I'll tell anyone it's never if you're going to have a turn. It's never if they're going to leave you. It's never. If something's going to come out about you or be made up about you, it's never if it's when you will have a turn. And so what I've learned is that when you isolate yourself and you put yourself on an Island, especially when things are good and you think you're untouchable, then when you go, when you have your turn, it's really hard to get through it.
Speaker 1:Yes, that dark night feeling. You know, either you die and become the hero, live long enough and become the villain. Right, if you hear long enough, your good is going to be equated to evil. Your bad is going to be accentuated to evil, more evil than what it really was. The thing that they would do for their favorite celebrity, their cousin, and humanization and empathy will not be also shared with you, However, how much you may have no.
Speaker 1:So you know it's like man, I should just snitch on all y'all because I done worked through stuff with you, be it your family, your finances, your marriage. And so now that the shoe is now on the other foot and you know how pastors and preachers and certainly you alluded to that kids are treated in the context of the church, because they'll do stuff to the kids that they know not to do or dare not to do to the pastor or the pastor's wife to do or dare not to do to the pastor or the pastor's wife sometimes they do it to the pastor's wife as well that they'll do that to the children as their vehicle of vengeance. And so it's back to our initial statement that we need each other because we understand that's what we signed up for, and if you don't know that when you signed up, you'll eventually oh no.
Speaker 2:You'll find out. Oh, no, no no.
Speaker 3:You'll find out. You'll find out real quick. No, no, no, no, no. You're going to find out, don't worry about it.
Speaker 1:No, you'll find out real quick Do you own the menu. You just don't know it yet. And they said, the conference of preachers. They said, if you were smart, if I threw my keys to my church to you, you'll throw it right back. You would so you know, that's good.
Speaker 1:You know. The higher you get quote unquote on how we measure higher, in very superficial ways, I mean the more of those things are accentuated. So that's even desperate and even deeper in me, the more profound need for those relationships and partnerships. I'm in the midst of six weeks, two six weeks, with a six week back sabbatical right now, and you know we talked about transparency. Before taking a sabbatical, I felt like I was dying. I felt like I was just this. This gotta be what death felt like.
Speaker 1:Not sick, not metal medically, from a medical standpoint, not really a mental health type of thing, just felt burnt out. Burnt, burnt out. Meets, overwhelmed meets. I want to slap somebody meets. You know, am I really low self-esteem? Am I really impacting? Is it time to look other places? Do other things? As it relates to ministry contacts, am I being helpful? Am I being impactful? A lot of times people don't understand, like when you look at our crowds, it's not that we're trying to. Oh, we're branding ourselves better, but it comes to the point where you may be like they're not listening to me. That's why they're not here, they don't care about what I say Exactly.
Speaker 3:You start taking things personal.
Speaker 3:But, that's because we're not healed a lot of times from a lot of things. You know, when we talk about something, we just skipped on some of the things I went through, like growing up right, growing up right. The problem that I didn't realize until I went to counseling was I was pastoring and I had never dealt with my own trauma. The problem that happens if you don't deal with your trauma when you pastor, you start pastoring from your trauma and, not even knowing it, you start taking things personal. You start applying that what's happening in your church is a remix of what happened with your family, things of that nature. So, you know, you reach a point where you don't process and then you reach burnout.
Speaker 3:So, I'm glad you're taking the sabbatical. I take them now whenever I feel like it. Greater Zion knows there's no guarantee that you're going to see me and they appreciate it. Yeah, you know, and I throw people up there. I'm like good luck, go ahead. You know, preach, get your study on you know, I mean we've done it man since 18 years old. You know, come on now. You know, take as many sabbaticals as you need, because we need the healthiest version of you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what? What led you to go to go and seek counseling?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, cause I definitely was going to hurt somebody, for sure. Um, as you know, for a long time you guys would keep getting the angry version of me. You know I was. I would come into the conference ready for it. You know I wouldn't give anybody the gas, you know, and I was the guy to do it. You know there's a couple of times you.
Speaker 2:You would see me like dang bitch you didn't have to do that guy like that.
Speaker 3:You know one particular preacher I won't say nothing to. You know, I slapped his hand when he tried to shake my hand.
Speaker 3:I was like the conference, you know, um, but yeah, I needed to go find out. What was that, what, what is that? And the altar calls weren't doing it Right. So I went to counseling and I prayed and God led me to a counselor that I've been with ever since 2019. I knew I really needed to go get counseling when my father passed because I wasn't grieving properly, and since then it's the best thing that could have happened to me. I locked a lot of things, I forgave myself about a lot of stuff, took charge of a lot of stuff, and I started handling certain things that needed to be handled over here, so I didn't have to play that out over there. And so I'm sitting here going off on you, because the truth of the matter is I haven't spoken, I haven't advocated for myself to my older brother over here, you see, and so when I started putting all that stuff in place, I love it now, man. So I go to counseling I sure do. I go every week too, praise God man Work.
Speaker 1:Thank, thank you. Uh, that work at people find you. Where can people find the church? How can people get connected? Social media handle address, website, social security number, cell phone, height, weight, date of birth, whatever you got to do is your time, bro, is this? Tinder All right.
Speaker 2:I don't know what that is. Then why'd you laugh? I don't know, right here. Whatever ultimate warrior, okay, then why'd you laugh?
Speaker 3:I don't know Ultimate Warrior okay, anyway yeah.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, I'm five and I'm just playing. You can get in touch with me on Instagram. That's why I am. I'm not on Facebook. That, yeah, done with that. I'm on Instagram, though under Michael JT Fisher. All right, michael JT Fisher. And then, as far as the website for my LLC is wwwthefisherbrandcom and you can hire me to be a consultant for any of your branding needs for either yourself, your staff, your ministry or your business, then as far as the church is concerned in Compton, we're located at 2408 North Wilmington Avenue, compton, california, right there on El Segundo in Wilmington, at the entrance of the city of Compton, and our service times are every Sunday at 930 am, and on first Sundays we do 930 am and 5 pm, and then for all our other campuses, you just go to our website at wwwgzcfamilyorg. All right, and if you want to give, you can go there too. Yes, sir, it can be a blessing as well.
Speaker 2:So those are all the places that you can find me. No phone numbers for you.
Speaker 1:Good ground, good ground, so listen. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Nuance Conversations. Be on the lookout for upcoming episodes and the way that you can support this media company as well and the various things that we're trying to do for the glory of the Lord. Thank you to our beloved guest today for sharing with us not just information but himself, and so many will be blessed by him doing so. God bless y'all. We out.