Nuanced Conversations Podcast
Welcome to Nuanced Conversations Podcast, where we dive deep into the complex and often overlooked aspects of today's most pressing topics. Each week, we bring you thought-provoking discussions with experts, innovators, and everyday people who offer unique perspectives and insights. Whether we're exploring the intricacies of social issues, science, culture, or personal development, our goal is to move beyond the surface and engage in meaningful dialogue that challenges assumptions and expands understanding. Join us as we navigate the gray areas and uncover the richness that lies in nuanced conversations.
Nuanced Conversations Podcast
The Calling That Couldn't Be Denied Part 2
Divine timing and narrative power take center stage as Dr. Chapman shares his remarkable 40-year ministry journey from rural Mississippi to Detroit's pulpit. Through vivid storytelling, he reveals how his father's distinctive preaching style—embodying biblical characters through first-person narration—shaped both his childhood and eventual approach to ministry.
The conversation delivers masterful examples of Black preaching traditions, where imagination and poetic expression transform familiar Bible stories into powerful, relatable messages. Dr. Chapman recreates his father's sermon about Elijah on Mount Carmel, showing how a small cloud "the size of a man's hand" becomes a powerful metaphor for God's ability to work through seemingly insignificant beginnings.
What truly captivates is the unmistakable thread of divine providence woven throughout Dr. Chapman's life. From his unlikely call to pastor Little Hope Baptist Church after just two sermons, to the extraordinary sequence of unplanned events that led him to Detroit—a meeting that should never have happened, a substitute preaching opportunity, and a snowstorm-defying church vote—each turn reveals God's guiding hand.
The emotional high point comes as Dr. Chapman recounts leaving his beloved rural congregations. Despite their offer to double his salary, he recognized God calling him elsewhere. "The day I had to leave those churches was a funeral," he shares, explaining how he needed multiple handkerchiefs because tears prevented him from finishing either farewell sermon.
For anyone wrestling with major life decisions, ministry transitions, or questions about divine guidance, this conversation offers profound wisdom through one pastor's authentic journey. Listen and consider: how might providence be working through unexpected moments in your own story?
Welcome to Nuance Conversations, a podcast where depth meets dialogue. Hosted by Dr George E Hurt, this show explores the great areas of life where faith, wisdom and real-world complexities intersect. No easy answers, just honest conversations that challenge, inspire and inform. Get ready to lean in, listen closely and explore the nuance. This is Nuance Conversations.
Speaker 2:So to back up for a second hey, is any of your other siblings in?
Speaker 3:ministry Preaching, ministry no two are deacons Gotcha, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then you talked about your dad being a narrative preacher, but he will infuse himself into the story. Can you explain a little bit more about that?
Speaker 3:called Three Minds at the Red Sea and his emphasis was it was a mind of the people, mind of Moses, mind of God. The mind of the people was to go back to Egypt. The mind of Moses was indecision, because he knew he couldn't go back. He's a fugitive, he's brought all of the labor force out of Egypt and he can't go forward because the waves are lapping at his feet. So he's got a mind to just pray. People have a mind to go back and only God's mind can prevail. So he's Moses in the story. He's saying guys, we can't go back. And he gives these reasons why y'all can't go back there. And he says I can't be God because I'm not God. So I'm going to just stand here and see what God is going to do, and only God's mind can prevail. So now the people are asking him so what are is going to do? And only God's mind can prevail. So now the people are asking him so what are we going to do? He says well, I just got a message from God. He says we go forward. So the people say to him now he's.
Speaker 3:This is him narrating his own story. He's Moses. He said the people are saying we can't go back there and we can't go forward. He says hold on, I'm getting another message. God says we handle the land, he'll handle the sea. And he says now, he just told me to stretch out this rod that I have and he's going to show us something we've never seen before. And he goes all into this. God shows us stuff we've never seen before. He said have y'all ever seen waters divide? He said I'm not talking about when you get in the tub. He said I'm not talking about when you get in the tub. He said I'm not talking about when you get in the pool, but I'm talking about I see it. And he says I'm going to see what's to this. He's Moses right. So he stretches out his rod and he says hmm, he did it again. Yeah, so God did it again. So that's the kind of preacher he was.
Speaker 3:So on a weekly he would sort of create, oh man you sit there and scratch your head Wow, where is this guy getting this stuff from? He came and did my anniversary once in Detroit, my pastoral anniversary, and he preached the story of Elijah defeating Ahab and Jezebel on Mount Carmel, right. So after God rains down fire from heaven, well, he says it this way after God made fire, drink water on heaven, he says. He tells his servant go look out over the sea and tell me what you see. And on that last trip the servant comes back and says I think I see something and I see a cloud about the size of a man's hand. But now he goes into the servants. Now some theologians or some seminary instructions would contend that this is eisegeting. But in the black preaching culture it's called imagination, imagination and poetic expression. And that's the level he was on and poetic expression and that's the level he was on. So, without running the risk of isogeeting, he says now I sent you back six times. You came here with a zero report. He said on that seventh time you come back and said you see a cloud about the size of a man's hand. I said now, what do you think about that? He's in the server until he's Elijah, right? So what do you think about that? He's in the servitude. He's Elijah, right. So what do you think about that?
Speaker 3:He said it ain't much. He said it wasn't much when the Lord started the world. He said it wasn't much. He just said let there be, and here comes sun and stars and moon and grass and people and animals. He said as a little boy who had a little lunch, he grass and people and animals. He said there was a little boy who had a little lunch. He said that didn't look like much either. And man, he just went on. He just eat you alive with that.
Speaker 3:So he says you said you saw a cloud by the size of a man's hand. He said yes, sir. He said well, son, a cloud is a cloud. He said if it's a cloud, it's got some water in it. He said so now you tell Ahab to get down because it's about to come a downpour here, and so on the way down, ahab is in his chariot, everybody's on the move, right? Elijah is running. And the text says Elijah runs by the chariot. Oh, yeah, he runs. So they said where are you going, elijah? He said I'm running between raindrops, man. And that was it. The church went, it was over.
Speaker 2:So was he a closer as well.
Speaker 3:Oh, my God, man, if you've heard, there's what we call a giggle in the black preaching tradition. You hear Bernard Mitchell to a certain degree. Now, mitchell and I came up under the same tutelage, my dad and Fred Chapman, who was a cousin to my father. He was that kind of closer and once he has just delineated, articulated his discourse, he'd go into that black preacher Afrikanic, you know rhythmic cadence and he would just shut it down, so to speak, and find a person in their seat. If you could, lord, have mercy, yeah.
Speaker 3:That's the kind of preaching influence that I had on my life.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so the years before you accept your calling, you had, I guess, certain moments where the passion would hit you at different times. You're right At 19,. You just couldn't.
Speaker 3:You're right and I'm glad you mentioned that, because at some times I was asking what's wrong with me Now. I never liked using profanity, not that I didn't use it, but it just wasn't me. I never liked the taste of beer, which meant I tasted it. As a kid I had a childhood friend. His mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, was my mother's hairstylist and she owned several businesses, apartments, hair salon and she would sell soda pop and beer and stuff like that. So he would slip and get a can of beer right and try to drink. So I took a sip of beer At that time. I think it was Slitz it might have been before your time yeah, slitz, small liquor beer and I and I was man, this is a nasty stuff and I I spit it out and and later tried what they call coolers you used to call them wine coolers and, for whatever reason, made my stomach ache. So I drunk one. Well, maybe it was just food I ate. So I tried another one at another time. Same thing. Okay, I won't be doing this anymore, right? So I just didn't acquire a taste for alcohol.
Speaker 3:I recall once after track practice I ran track. Some of the teammates got under a viaduct away from traffic and one of the guys pulled out a marijuana so they lit it and they started smoking marijuana. Chachi wanted this and I was always crazy about my body. You know, I was an athlete. I wanted to go and play college ball, you know, make a lot of money, right. So I was always afraid of what drugs and alcohol would do to my body. So I didn't do it, not that I was holy, it was just my consciousness. Now the greater consciousness was if my father found out about it. He ran the police department, the sheriff department, you know, the city council. Everybody was afraid of him because of the kind of power he had. But he was also a strict disciplinarian, not that he was abusive, so I was more afraid of him than I was the police. So I shied away from those kinds of kind of, I guess, vices.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's interesting. You had this feeling like what's wrong with me?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I later came to know that it was God in my life, every path that I was on that could have been in the wrong direction. It was always. I did my spiritual autobiography and you know, when you do your spiritual autobiography, you write about every person, everything that happened to you in your life, good and bad. And while reflecting and writing, you know it turns out that there was always somebody to redirect me in a different direction, a different direction. Some incident happened that caused me to think otherwise or do otherwise. No-transcript, I would say, this road to understanding what my calling to preach was about.
Speaker 2:Mercy. Yeah, so once you start preaching, are you preaching regularly or you're more just a student and coming home and preaching? What is the migration of?
Speaker 3:I immediately became an itinerant preacher.
Speaker 2:Right away.
Speaker 3:Because of my father's relationships with other pastors. I recall at one National Baptist Congress, I believe, in Pittsburgh, and my father was quite popular around the nation. He never got his opportunity on the national platform to preach but he came up. My father was licensed at Convent Avenue Baptist Church in Harlem, new York, and he served under the late Dr Walter Harding at St Luke Baptist Church in Harlem. Dr Walter Harding at St Luke Baptist Church in Harlem, so he was around Dr Sandy Ray Gardner, taylor, bj Burson, proctor, those guys all the time. Ivory Moore, who used to be the devotional leader for the pastors and ministers division in the National Baptist Congress and Convention. So by him, being an understudy and protege of those men, you know, he began to interact with those men. So by him. And then he later moved back south to Mississippi.
Speaker 2:This is during your childhood or before he married your mom.
Speaker 3:This is before I was born. Okay, so when he moves back to Mississippi he begins pastoring churches. I think he pastored at one time five different churches at one time. So this new thing about you know one church, 20 locations all this is nothing new, it's just a new era. Nevertheless, by him having established relationships with pastors around the nation, those pastors called me to preach for them If it was on a Sunday or if it was in a revival. Now I'm still learning how to preach right.
Speaker 3:So I remember one time my college pastor, dr Matthews we was at his church Shady Grove, I would guess would seat about 400, 500 people right During the district association he was on the preach. So I'm sitting next to him in the pulpit. So they're singing Amazing Grace, they get to Through Many Dangers, talls and Snares. He reaches over and taps me on the knee and says Okay, boy, get ready to preach. It scared me to death and I got up and, you know, did what I did and you know, did what I did. And you know the old man you had a way of getting up preaching behind you making remarks. You know to set it right, you know to get his house back. So, but that's the kind of environment I grew up in as a young preacher because of his relationship with other pastors. You know I was doing revival. I guess my earliest years five revivals, maybe 10 revivals a year and I guess, coming into my own, I started pastoring one year later, one year after being called to preach, one year after I surrendered my call.
Speaker 2:Before we go there, because I want to pick up right there. How would you define your preaching at this point? Topical, Is it just kind of doing what your dad did? How are you crafting sermons?
Speaker 3:Most of my sermons are expository. Every once in a while I'll do an inductive sermonic expression and you know the difference in inductive and deductive Because I like the way inductive preaching unfolds, in the likes of a Gardner Taylor or a Samuel Proctor or a Otis Moss Jr. I like its effectiveness, if I could get away with saying challenge. The challenge is most congregants now are used to hearing expository preaching movements in a text, what some traditionally call point one, point two, what some traditionally call point one, point two but I don't like to use the word point but matters of emphasis throughout a sermonic discourse. But most of my preaching is expository preaching and occasionally I would drop some narration in the discourse.
Speaker 2:Are you thinking through that formally as a term back then, or is it just something you're doing naturally, like when?
Speaker 3:does the term expository preaching enter into your lexicon? Probably during my times attending the Congress, listening to guys like A Louis Patterson Sr, and I began hearing guys like RA Williams, robert A Williams, emphasize the word expository Right. And then expository preaching conferences began to surface late 1980s, early 90s perhaps. So that nuance, or genre, if you will, of sermon delivery from my vantage point seems to help people hold on to the message better?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I ask that question because I feel like black preaching has always been expository. It's never just been formalized in that way. When I think about my early years of even hearing you, I wouldn't have been able to say I just listened to an expository sermon, but it was an expository sermon and didn't know it and didn't know. Even if you say your dad's a narrative preacher, but the way you explain it, that's narrative expository preaching, it's exposing the text. What does expository mean? So I think a lot of times we forget that about black preaching because the label wasn't on there. And now we've become more learned and more educated. As you said, more conferences out there with the tag on it sort of delineate from that, but that's always sort of been our tradition.
Speaker 3:Yes, and I think a lot of our preaching is mirrored At least my earliest days, incubation years. I call them watching the older preachers. I call them watching the older preachers. We just mimic that because we felt as though that was the way it was to have been done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when I read about slave preaching, slave preaching was hearing a Bible story, coming together afterwards and retelling that Bible story, but applying it to the plight of slavery. Yeah, and so that's expository.
Speaker 3:You take the practical side of preaching since the days of John Jasper. How powerful is preaching when you, as a slave preacher, can convert your slave master? That's powerful, that's powerful preaching.
Speaker 3:That's John Jasper Without definition or clarification or classification of what type of sermon he preached. But when you preach with broken English, so to speak, the son do move, but your master knows that is broken English. But something mysterious about the communication causes him to rethink his life. You're a hell of a preacher. Yes, sir, pharaoh was moved by God to let the people go a preacher.
Speaker 2:Yes, sir, pharaoh was moved by God to let the people go it wasn't a Moses sermon.
Speaker 3:Plague on top of plague. They're doing that.
Speaker 2:The verbiage presentation. Richard Allen is another one who doesn't do it himself. But crafted in such a way. I'm a tremendous friend of Richard Allen Pastoring. One year after preaching, you're pastoring. How in the world did that happen?
Speaker 3:I was in a revival meeting at. I think the name of the church was Mount Zion, meridian, mississippi the late. I'm trying to remember the pastor's name, but at the time my first church, little Hope Baptist Church, toomsuba, mississippi, toomsuba, 10 miles it's a native Indian name 10 miles east of Meridian, one mile west of the Alabama state line on the I-20 corridor Dr Jerry T Hall, jt Hall, that was his name, so I was in revival for him at that time. Revivals were five nights, yes, sir, and the chair of deacons from that church came to church and asked if I would come and preach at Little Hope and I did in a borrowed car 100 miles one way from home, and the rest is history. After, I think maybe the second time they called me as their pastor.
Speaker 2:Second Sunday. So you preached one Sunday, then you preached the next Sunday, then they called you as pastor.
Speaker 3:It was like two Sundays later, Because those churches at that time that church was called a part-time church they didn't convene every Sunday, except for Sunday school. So it was second, fourth Sunday, first, third Sunday church. So this church was first Sunday, third Sunday.
Speaker 2:So did they vote you in, they voted me in. Did you have to turn in a resume?
Speaker 3:No, no, just the guy that preached two weeks ago. I don't remember an interview, I don't even remember. I don't recall meeting with the congregation, with the exception of going to preach as a prospect. They called me and, under the advice of my father and my college pastor, dr Matthews, dr Porter, go sit and talk with the people now. And they had to teach me about getting a budget together and a counterproposal for a pass rule package, et cetera, and when I presented that to them they voted it up and I stayed there for five years until I left there and went to Detroit.
Speaker 2:How was those five years?
Speaker 3:Warm Rural church. I stayed there for five years until I left there and went to Detroit. How was those five years? Warm rural church, rural context, warm, receptive, spiritual, loving people who help make me what I am to this day, and I still communicate with those people. Church still exists.
Speaker 3:Church still exists, church still exists. Wow, I still communicate with those people to this day. Wow, yeah, because it was their homes that I stayed in, because I would stay overnight on a Saturday night and go to church the next day because it was so far away from from my home. Um, and after my first year, my college pastor co-signed, uh, to help me get a car. And I own my first car. I think it was like 30, 3,600, $3,800, something like that, the whole pay for that car. And man, I struggled to come up with that. I think it was like a hundred and some change to pay the car note.
Speaker 3:But at any rate, I stayed in their homes overnight on Saturday nights and, after church on some Sundays, go to their homes and eat. They packed me up enough food to last me, you know, two or three days into the week because they knew I was in school. It was a warm, loving people. I can't say that I had any. You know you have some people who disagree with you, know your moves or leadership decisions, but we didn't have any fussing and falling out.
Speaker 2:Wow, oh yeah. When did you get married? Is it during your pastorate there?
Speaker 3:I got married in 83, which was two years into my pastorate there.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes. So that was a unique experience, as I was single, you know, and I guess some might have felt as though I was a prospect for some of their daughters or what have you. But when I did get married some of that atmosphere changed Really. Yes, but for the most part they received her as well, and at that time we had one son, our oldest son, now Cecil and my wife worked and then most Sundays she had to work at a drugstore and that's how it was until we moved from Meridian Mississippi to Detroit. She went into the medical field, became a doctor's assistant, was lettered for it, but eventually decided to come out of the workforce because we had children to raise and didn't want the TV or babysitter to raise our children. But to your question, two years into pastoring I got married and the church grew and I'd say for a country church, we did well. Or a church for a country church, we did well. Or a church in a rural context, we did well. And then later was called to Detroit.
Speaker 2:How did the Call of Galilee take place?
Speaker 3:Oh, a unique show of providence. I was in attendance to the East Mississippi Baptist State Convention at Owens Chapel Baptist Church, columbia, mississippi, pastored by none other than the Reverend Richard Sylvester Porter, that same pastor to civil rights, you know, influence in East Mississippi, um, and during the week of the East Mississippi State Convention there is what is called Jay's Jackson Night, a night that is that honors the late Dr Joseph Harrison Jackson, who was president of the National Baptist Convention at that time and in his honor of being a native of Mississippi, they would have a Jay Jackson night and invite the National Convention president to preach on that night. So at that time Dr Jameson, who had become president, I think in 1984, was the guest preacher and for whatever reason, he couldn't come. So he was going to send Vice President Henry Lyons and while on the way Dr Lyons, for whatever reason, couldn't come, he had to go back to Florida. So the leader for the Women's Auxiliary, ms Alma Barnes, who used to live in Laurel Mississippi, recommended Dr TC Simmons, theodore Cornelius Simmons, who pastored Messiah Baptist Church in Detroit, who at that time had the largest Christian education week in the United States. At that time he would invite the likes of Franklin Richardson Amos Jones, and the list goes on and on and on. At any rate by him, dr Simmons being used to pastor her pastor in Laurel Mississippi, she said I recommend Dr Simmons come. So he considered to come right. So he flew from Detroit to Jackson and however he got to Columbia, you know, he got there to that church and the noonday service I was in the back of the church the preacher who was scheduled to preach didn't show.
Speaker 3:The preacher who was scheduled to preach didn't show, and Dr Porter, who knew my dad didn't know me as well with the exception of my church coming into the East Mississippi State Convention, sent a message back to me saying Little Chapman, you got to preach today. I want you to preach today. The noonday preacher didn't show. Okay, so now I get a chance or an opportunity to preach in the state convention. Now that was big, you know.
Speaker 3:So, um, after I preached, dr Simmons was there. He came in, like you know, a little while before the sermon. When I finished we went back to Dr Porter's office because he was to preach that night. We got acquainted. He's a young man and I had to go to class the next day from Columbia back to Jackson. He had to get from there to Jackson, catch a plane to go back home after he preached that night. So he said, if you don't mind if I catch a ride with you back to Jackson tonight? I said, sure, doc, I'd be honored to take you back. And on the way from Columbia to Jackson he invited me to do his revival in Detroit. So I started on a Sunday, ended on a Friday. The second year I went back. Between the first and the second revival my predecessor passed away. He knew the widow and called her and invited her.
Speaker 2:I got a young preacher, I want you to hear it. Predecessor Galilee passed away. Galilee, he got you.
Speaker 3:Yes, my predecessor. She came, she went back. She called the chairman of deacons. He came, he went back. He called the deacons. Third night they all came. Fourth night the pulpit committee came, invited me to meet with them. Fifth night we meet in Dr Simmons's office with the pulpit committee. They invite me to come to Galilee. Come to Galilee after I don't know how many times. I think the second time I went. They called me to be their pastor.
Speaker 3:I was in the woods hunting that night and it was a snowy night in Detroit. I mean very, very. You know about Detroit winters. Yes, sir, it was a snowstorm. But those people came out in a snowstorm and voted me in as their pastor. And I recall one of the deacons who was running the committee, heading up the committee, called me as I came into the house. We was in an apartment at that time. My wife said you got a call from that deacon up there in Detroit. She didn't know his name and I called him back. He said in a very light voice we want to welcome you as our pastor and the rest is history. Now my opening statement was to show you blatant providence in this predicament. Dr Simmons was not scheduled to preach. I was not scheduled to preach, but that's just how God worked it out, so that he would be there and I would be there in the same space, at the same time invited to Detroit and later invited to Galilee, and now I'm about to celebrate my 40th year in 2025.
Speaker 2:That decision? It was a no brainer. Was it because you've been living in Mississippi your entire life? What did you know about?
Speaker 3:Detroit. What about your wife? I did not want to leave home. I was doing good, I had two good country churches, we were doing all right, I was around my family, so you started passing to the second church yes, I was called to Mount Pisgah Baptist Church in Jenkins, alabama, 1984.
Speaker 3:Preached there on a Sunday, the chair of deacons asked everybody to stay. He said ladies and gentlemen, we don't need to look no further. Us got our pass. And he said us. He said us got our pass right here. And he said y'all want to vote right now? And everybody said yeah and they voted unanimously. How many years were you passing? I was passing Little Hope since 81. And I started passing that church, Mount Pisgah.
Speaker 2:Three years later. Yes, so there'll be first and third and second and fourth. That's correct. That's correct.
Speaker 3:That's correct, and I mean just a bunch of loving people, and I still communicate with them to this day. Wow, so, yes, this summonsing to pastor. When I had to make the decision to go to Detroit, I recall my father had just finished doing a revival for me at the second church.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 3:I drove him from Alabama, where my church was, back to the Mississippi Gulf Coast and we had this long conversation. He said I'll tell you what you do, son. He said you call those two churches together if they would in a meeting and you tell them what those people up there are offering you meaning Detroit up there. And he said if those people match it, it ain't about money. He said the Lord might be calling you away from here and I called that meeting. That night, church packed. Both churches came together and I told them what was going on. I had informed them earlier that I had been called to church in Detroit and I needed their prayers.
Speaker 3:But shortly after that revival was the time to call that church meeting. And when I did that I told them and the chair of deacons Whitehead Dunagan he was one of the ones in whose home I would stay in overnight on a Saturday night to go to church, to prepare to go to church on the next day. So I remember him sitting in the back of the church, left side, facing the front door. He says he stood up and said Pastor, whatever they're offering you, he said no, never mind, whatever they're offering you. He said no, nevermind, um, whatever they're offering you, we'll double it.
Speaker 3:And I knew right then that the Lord was calling me away. And when I called my father about it, he said now, all right, take all the money off the table. He said if they offered you a million dollars, take that off of the table. Is God telling you your assignment? There is done and the rest is history. And I just man.
Speaker 3:And the day I had to leave those churches was a funeral and I would hate to see you have to leave a church because you back your car in on that day and you take about four or five handkerchiefs because you won't finish the sermon. That's just how, how close we had gotten and it just broke my heart to have to leave them and I don't. I never finished the sermon, neither one of them. Yeah, it was. It was too emotional, and but you know, I still have the relationship and, thank God, we still keep up with each other. But that's how Providence did this and that was one of the means by which my wise counsel helped me to make the decision to leave where I didn't want to leave, to go to where I am now, how did your wife feel about all that?
Speaker 2:And it was just Cecil at that point.
Speaker 3:Cecil was about three years old. He was a baby then. Well, yeah, three years old, she handled it well. And I recall asking Dr Simmons, in fact, about how should I handle my wife, deal with my wife, in that she's got to leave her family too. She's leaving a job. And I remember his words vividly, standing at his door at his home, he said and the old casual, oh, son. He said, lord, going to take care of that. Lord will speak to her just like he's speaking to you, just like it wasn't anything to it. He said Lord, going to speak, take care of that. Lord will speak to her just like he's speaking to you. It's just like it wasn't anything to it. He said, lord, lord, speak to her just like he's going to speak to you. And when I sat down with her, she said if that's what the Lord is telling you to go, then that's where we're going.
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