Nuanced Conversations Podcast
Welcome to Nuanced Conversations Podcast, where we dive deep into the complex and often overlooked aspects of today's most pressing topics. Each week, we bring you thought-provoking discussions with experts, innovators, and everyday people who offer unique perspectives and insights. Whether we're exploring the intricacies of social issues, science, culture, or personal development, our goal is to move beyond the surface and engage in meaningful dialogue that challenges assumptions and expands understanding. Join us as we navigate the gray areas and uncover the richness that lies in nuanced conversations.
Nuanced Conversations Podcast
When a Mother's Struggle Becomes a Son's Ministry Part 1
A glazed donut becomes the unlikely catalyst for a spiritual transformation in this powerful conversation with Dr. KW Tulis, pastor of the historic Willow Street Baptist Church in Los Angeles. Born to a 16-year-old single mother in Compton and raised in South LA, Dr. Tulis shares his raw, unfiltered journey through family trauma, identity struggles, and divine intervention.
The turning point came when he was just 13 years old, facing the prospect of foster care as his mother battled crack addiction. That night, remembering a sermon about prayer from a church he initially attended only for the Sunday school donuts, young KW made a fateful promise: "If you just help my mother one time, I promise you I'll serve you till I die." What happened next changed the trajectory of his family forever—his mother found deliverance through their local church community, beginning a 34-year journey of sobriety that continues today.
Dr. Tulis takes us through his evolution from church attendee to armor bearer, from youth pastor to community activist, revealing how mentors like Pastor LC Carter and Reverend Al Sharpton shaped his understanding of ministry and social justice. With remarkable transparency, he discusses navigating his dual identity as both "church boy" and football player at Locke High School—a place many believed nothing good could come from.
The conversation doesn't shy away from complex topics, including Dr. Tulis's nuanced perspective on women's reproductive rights informed by his own origin story. His willingness to engage with the gray areas of faith and social issues embodies the podcast's mission to move beyond simplistic answers.
Subscribe now to hear the full story of how donuts led to deliverance, and how personal testimony becomes public ministry in the hands of someone committed to both spiritual growth and community transformation.
Welcome to Nuance Conversations, a podcast where depth meets dialogue. Hosted by Dr George E Hurt, this show explores the great areas of life where faith, wisdom and real-world complexities intersect. No easy answers, just honest conversations that challenge, inspire and inform. Get ready to lean in, listen closely and explore the nuance. This is Nuance Conversations.
Speaker 2:Greetings, welcome to another episode of the Nuance Conversation podcast. My name is George Hurt. I am the creator and curator of this space. Thank you so much for tuning in to our second season, and I have again, and sometimes we overuse the word friend and certainly we overuse the notion of brother. But this is a friend and a brother, not just a brother, a brother beloved, who was kind enough his most tremendous busy schedule to make time come sit down with us.
Speaker 2:He has a story of overcoming adversity which all of us have faced, but not always we have to face that with the outside rumblings trying to make their position and their opinions known and felt. In that We'll get into that as much as he feels comfortable with it. But more importantly, he offers us so much from the spiritual realm, from the social realm as it relates to social justice, from the political realm and certainly in his current role, which soon we'll be transitioning out of, he's served his faithful terms. He's submitted to the bylaws and constitutions. He didn't extend that, which many of us would have loved him to do so. He is the pastor of the historical Willow Street Baptist Church in Los Angeles, california. He's homegrown. He's a Dodgers fan Laker fan.
Speaker 2:If it got LA, he down with it, I'm down with it. Pastor, president, preacher par excellence, Dr KW Tulis. How are you doing, sir?
Speaker 3:Man, I'm doing good. George, I'm just so happy to be here. I'm excited about all that you're doing. I appreciate that introduction man. I'm going to take you all across the world with me, Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And have you introduce me Absolutely.
Speaker 3:I want to say thank you, man, for having me on this gracious platform a platform that is growing, a platform that means a lot to our community because, just seeing the transparency that you bring out of people, it's a platform that I love, that I'm honored to be a part of man appreciate it.
Speaker 2:We got to swear you in. That's what we have to do to everybody that come here. So you got to swear, to be open, to be honest, to be transparent, to be intelligent in a nuanced conversation. Podcast.
Speaker 3:Man, I do yes, yes, we got to. I'm used to saying that I do yes, we got to Listen.
Speaker 2:This is a space that's meant to operate in the gray, not the black and white, to be nuanced. That's the name. We're comfortable with black and white. We're comfortable. This is wrong, this is right. But sometimes, and most times in life, the groove is in the middle. Um, and as it relates to that um, that's from religion to social norms, pop culture, um and politics. You can speak to all of that um in so many ways, on so many levels. But before we dig into any nuance as it relates to those two categories, how are you doing today?
Speaker 3:Man, I'm doing good man, in the words of one of them famous songwriters. I don't look like what I've been through, you know, and so I'm thankful. I'm grateful, but I'm thankful that God, through it all, has brought me closer and closer to him. So I'm a work in progress. I still got my smile and I'm looking forward to the greater works that God has in store.
Speaker 2:What have you been?
Speaker 3:through man. You know been through a life Life be, life.
Speaker 1:Life be life. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:That's what they say Life be life. And so in my time here on earth of understanding that my life, even from birth, was birth through struggle, meaning that, you know, I was raised by a 16 year old single mother here in Los Angeles trying to. That's 1977. Born in Compton, Raised in South Los Angeles to a mother who all she wanted was to have her son to, you know, just be a strong and productive young man, A mother that taught me how to be independent at a young age, being raised in South Los Angeles, going through the struggles of just hoping I can get to and from school.
Speaker 3:I went to a high school called Locke High School in Los Angeles and most people say there's nothing good coming from that neighborhood. You know I pushed a life that you know was I try to live a life that was pleasing to God and pleasing to the community. So I've had the best of all worlds in life. You know. So when I talk about struggles, struggles started with me from a young age, from high school, to where I am now, from a young age, from high school to where I am now and, as I said, through it all you know, God has literally brought me to this place and I still got my smile.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, let's get into that. When your mom had you at 16, is she still in high school?
Speaker 3:My mother's still in high school, single mother. She was visiting an army base, visiting her sister, and got pregnant in Killeen Texas and she moved on back to California and she recognized she was pregnant with a young boy and she, like I said, when she gave birth to me she had a great, strong community, had a wonderful grandmother, wonderful aunties, and they raised me in Compton, California. So, with that being said, you know I've seen struggle, you know.
Speaker 2:So she was 16. She's still living with your grandma, and she was a kid. She's still in with your grandma and she was a kid. She's still in high school they say babies raising babies, you know so that she communicate back to her sister this news, or she didn't say nothing?
Speaker 3:No, my, you know it's funny. Um, fast forwarding. I was a child being raised by a strong, uh, a strong woman, and she felt she can do it all by herself. Oh well, you know, so she, you know. Only thing I knew of my dad was his name. Only thing I knew of my dad was he lived in Texas, somewhere, somewhere, and so, but she went into life doing it all by herself. Um, so, but she went into life doing it all by herself, and um, through that, I've seen the struggles of, of, of a single mom trying to make the best for her children, and through that, you know life, as I say, be lifing and at the end of the day, um, here I am today.
Speaker 2:What, um? I'm actually questioning about the progression there, but also that experience in your background and knowing the bravery and courage of your mom and thus not just having you but developing you does that in any way feed your perspective on the hot topic debate today that's labeled as pro-life and pro-choice?
Speaker 3:A hundred percent, you know it doesn't fuel. I believe, you know, in the woman's right to choose, even as a preacher, as a pastor, as progressive as that might sound in the minds of some theologians, I believe that God gives us all the ability to choice, to have choice, and I'm thankful that my mother chose to, you know, keep me a young man, when I'm sure it was all forms of ways, from adoptions to abortion, that she could have dealt with the situation. But she chose to jump in and say, hey, I'm going to raise this young man to be a productive and honest person in the community.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's. That's interesting that you would have that based off of not even making an assessment on it in this point in the conversation, but just from your background, to still have that for those who are of a like-minded position. I hope they would appreciate that coming from your experience. So you're growing up. Where does church enter into this shaping of yourself in those early years?
Speaker 3:Well, that's a good question, because you know, growing up my mother, she wanted the best for me and so she exposed me to private schools from all across the city of LA, and so I really met Christ real young, and I was raised in a household that loved Christ. We didn't go to church but, you know, we love Christ.
Speaker 2:Through schools Through schools, through schools Through schools, yeah, through these Catholic schools, Through these Episcopal schools.
Speaker 1:Catholic schools Episcopal schools.
Speaker 3:okay, I've learned about Christ, you know so. I always knew in my spirit, from the age of five to ten, whenever my mother stopped being able to afford to pay for my private private school. I learned about Christ, and so so she's 22 at this point. She's about 22.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go to private school.
Speaker 3:Paying for me to get there, and you know I come. I was raised on a street in Los Angeles 92nd street, so 92nd and Avalon and the way Christ became real to me was it was some missionaries walking down the middle of the hood, seeing some young black man playing basketball, coming in and engaging with us, and they invited us to the church down the street from our home, which was South Los Angeles Baptist Church, a very familiar church At that time. The pastor was Pastor Curtis Morris, and so they invited me to church. I went to church, I learned a little bit more about Jesus and I found something very special at church, pastor Hurt, I found donuts.
Speaker 2:My.
Speaker 3:God Donuts during the Sunday school. Man and those Sunday school donuts drove me to church week in and week out. I just wanted to get a donut.
Speaker 2:You wanted to get a donut.
Speaker 3:A donut every week, you ended up getting the bread of life, not the bread of life.
Speaker 1:I wanted a donut.
Speaker 2:You started with the bread Human bread.
Speaker 3:And so you know, particularly at a time when I was 13, my mother experienced what was rapid in our community. She was a drug addict and one particular day, me and my siblings was at home. My mother said we're going to have.
Speaker 2:Siblings, so you've had. I going to have siblings, so you've had.
Speaker 3:I've had two siblings.
Speaker 2:So you were first, I was the first.
Speaker 3:And then my mother got remarried and she had three, three different children, but at this time it was only two of us Got you and so she got married. She got married. Well, she, she, eventually it was a. It was a community Mary, meaning that he was my stepdad and he wasn't my stepdad, if you know what I mean. So, long story short, I'm 13.
Speaker 3:The social worker came to our home and said to me and my little brother at the time, I'm here to put you all in foster care. And me and my brother looked at each other and said you're going to put us in foster care for what? And they said well, your mother has a drug problem, matter of fact, she said she didn't say that. She said your mother's a crack head and she's tested positive for drugs. And I'm here to take you out this home because your mother can't take care of you. And I remember crying with my brother, we holding each other. You're not gonna separate us from each other. And um, her mother was crying, you know, because she was like looking. She said but I'm gonna give your mama one chance and, uh, if she can get herself together, um, you all can stay in this environment, but she has to show the work in progress. Me knowing the devastation of drugs in our community, I just knew that, uh, it was no hope. I just knew me and my brother was going into a foster home.
Speaker 3:But I remember going to church for donuts, the glazed donuts and I remember a pastor by the name of Pastor Morris preaching a sermon about going into your secret closet and praying. And so that night I said I'm going to give it a shot. That night I remember going into my secret closet, praying and I said to the Lord I said if you just help my mother one time, I promise you I'll serve you till I die. This is 13 years old and, just to fast forward my sad story, I've been serving God ever since God delivered my mother from crack cocaine. God delivered my mother from crack cocaine.
Speaker 3:My mother went back to our childhood church, the first Antioch Missionary Baptist Church in Los Angeles, and she literally gave her life to Christ and she took her children to church with her. And that's when I saw the power of the church, the power of the church community, how they love my mother despite her challenges that she had. She had a pastor that loved her, she had members that rallied around her and I saw the power of the church community and I've been raised. I've been in church ever since and here it is, 34 years later. My mother has been clean from crack cocaine. Copy praise. She's preaching in the pulpit. She serves at my church and this is the testimony. Her testimony became my testimony because her testimony brought me closer to God.
Speaker 2:What are? What are other things that you're struggling with, even in light of being connected to the church, dealing with this reality of the stigmatization and you know we're the same age in our community of you know, you know, I mean kids could be yeah, as relates to that. Um, what are the things that you're yet struggling with in this point?
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, when we think about the uh, our communities as a whole, there's so many different things um that our community, our faith community, is struggling with and ultimately, at the end of the day, I believe we're not.
Speaker 3:We're living in a time where this is not grandma church, you know, and so what individuals are looking for is leaders and pastors who are transparent, who can relate to many of the struggles. I mean, you're dealing with a new wave of alcoholism, drug abuse. We're living in a society that's not kind to the church, and so, ultimately, I believe it's up to us as leaders, as leaders within our community, to continue to lead that charge and let people know that Jesus is the way he is, the truth, is the light. But I believe a lot of times people are looking at our lives for that and because of that, many times we become targets of the cultures of this world. If it's the council culture, whatever it might be, trying to stigmatize the church is not being relevant today, transparent and being a transparent leader in days and times, and letting individuals know that you know when you're standing for something you know you're going to automatically be a target for you know of, of, of good and bad.
Speaker 2:I appreciate you saying that, but I think my question was like, still at the point of you being 13 and having all of these triumphant moments in your life, through what your mom has overcome, you as a family unit has overcome, got it how First Antioch played a role Still looking at you in your early teens there Got it. What are the things that you're yet struggling with at that point?
Speaker 3:Man, I'm struggling with my identity. You know, I don't know if I want to be a gangster in my community or if I want to, you know, be this church boy that goes to church faithfully every Sunday, who the pastor look out in the audience and out of all the young people he picks me to be his armor bearer, Wow audience. And out of all the young people he picks me to be his armor bearer, Wow. So I get to walk around and carry my pastor briefcase. And my pastor in my early days was a little fat, flashy, he drove around in a limousine. So I used to go to around my neighborhood in a limousine, you know, because my pastor ruled like that, you know.
Speaker 2:Elsie Carter. Yeah, your pastor was LC.
Speaker 3:Carter. Yeah, his name was Dr LC Carter. He's probably the most influential man that I that I met at that time. I mean he showed me the importance of being godly through your works being godly through your works. Individuals loved him because he was pure, he was transparent. He'll walk out and run around the neighborhood with no shoes, talking to people. He taught me how to be an activist. A lot of people think you know Sharpton and all these people. No, lc Carter taught me as a young man. So I was in that identity stage 13, 14. But the church won.
Speaker 2:Wow. So when did you make the transition in your mind to like hey, I'm not a thug, I'm not a gangbanger, I'm not a drug dealer, none of these things. I'm set on the path for Christ. I know you say that Pastor Carter played a great role in it. Well, I guess a better question would be in what was the next step in that evolution, your armor bearer? What was the next step?
Speaker 3:Armor bearer, football player at Locke High School. You know D-tackle offensive line. You know trying to find myself, minister of defense of the football field. Pray before every football game. You know, so trying to find myself.
Speaker 2:Minister of defense is not an athletic term, it's that you were the spiritual like chaplain of the team.
Speaker 3:I was a spiritual chaplain of the team. I prayed every game you know played on the field. Reggie White, minister of defense. Get it Reggie White, yeah, yeah yeah, no, I just play, but oh yeah.
Speaker 2:But you are not a minister at this point. No, I'll just play, but you are not a minister at this point. No, no, no, no, okay, okay, nowhere near, that's what.
Speaker 1:I was trying to clarify.
Speaker 3:Yes, no, I was not a minister at that time. I was just a young dude at church. You know, going to church every week had a responsibility to carry my pastor briefcase. That was my job. Watch my pastor, you know. Carry his robe, you know. Whatever it was, I found that to be a job that you know. God put me in. You know when did you start preaching and fast forward? I started preaching at the age of 18. My pastor retired, elsie Carter and so when he retired it left a void in my life because that father figure that I developed and you know that came into my life. He retired, he retired.
Speaker 3:He retired at a young age and moved to Houston, texas, to do what? To retire Just retire.
Speaker 1:He retired from preaching.
Speaker 3:He was in his 60s. Okay, you know, he wanted to go back home to Texas. So him and his family retired. We had a big celebration. He went away and it was like another void in my life. So I had no father figure again. You know, I've never met my real dad at that particular time. So Dr Carter left and I had no one to talk to about some of the dreams and thoughts that was going on through my mind.
Speaker 3:So, I was still active in church, still participate in choir, junior deacon brotherhood, whatever it might have been, and I had no one to really talk to about the certain things that was going on in my mind. And so, at the age of 17, one of the church members that knew I had a great relationship with Pastor Carter. She purchased me a flight to go head up to Houston Texas, where my pastor resided at that time, and I went there and in a busy Houston Texas mall I think it was the Galleria me and Pastor Carter was walking through the mall and he sat down and he talked to me and took time to talk to me for about 60 minutes and I professed my calling to preach to him and he talked to me and took time to talk to me for about 60 minutes and I professed my calling to preach to him and he said to me I always knew you was called to preach, I just want to wait for you to tell me, for we can help kind of develop you.
Speaker 3:And so I was still without a pastor in Los Angeles, pastor in Los Angeles.
Speaker 3:But Pastor Carter recommended a young upcoming preacher by the name of Nathaniel Haley to be the next pastor of First Antioch. The problem is First Antioch just took a couple of years to, you know, call Pastor Haley to become the pastor. But the way things work, when I got back to Los Angeles as I stood in front of my house, that young preacher, nathaniel Haley, saw me in front of my home, stopped, pulled over and said let's go to lunch. And there we went to lunch and I was able to tell him he was associate minister at United Christian at the time. But I was able to tell him that I was called to preach and he said to me he pledged to me that day that he will help assist me every step of the way. And so I had a big brother then to kind of help nourish her and help structure my life and when he was called to become pastor of the first Antioch church. A few months later, I preached my first sermon under his leadership.
Speaker 2:Wow, amazing story. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, thanks for sharing that. And so are you in school at this point? Are you just ministering, working the nine to five? Five to nine, yeah.
Speaker 3:So you know my youthfulness, I've always had a desire to help people, and so my family created a nonprofit when I was 17, 18 years old, making a Difference Foundation, and so growing up and serving, you know, I automatically became the president of this foundation at a young age, 18 years old and, with that being said, we brought so many opportunities to our church, our local church, first Antioch, pastor Haley, and he allowed me to be me and so, with that being said, he allowed me to just work my magic. I've always been one that served people, and so we brought in a food program. We brought in different things that would help cultivate and to grow our ministry. I was the youth pastor of First Antioch, under his leadership.
Speaker 2:How long before you became youth pastor right away.
Speaker 3:I became youth pastor right away, right, and so, you know, I established my mark at the church. You know, young people began to come in droves and we built one of the top youth and young adult programs in Los Angeles, you know, under his leadership. And so my, my way of things was yeah, I worked. I was in school, southwest College. After I graduated from Locke, I went to college and, but I was always involved in the community, always working.
Speaker 2:Played football there.
Speaker 3:I didn't play football. I retired from football and I focused on helping people. You know, I got some great opportunities of employment with the state of California. I was meeting some unique people through a lot of my service and it really just. I was a young activist always trying to fight for people's social justice and things of that matter, man. So this was something I was always born to serve, man.
Speaker 2:So this is how you eventually meet connect with National Action Network, which is led by Reverend Al Sharpton. How does that relationship and marriage take place?
Speaker 3:Man. So in 2004, here in Los Angeles there was a shooting that took place where the LAPD SWAT team shot a little baby. Her name was Susie Pena. She was a two-year-old. She was being held in her father's arm and the SWAT team shot and hit Susie Pena and it became uproar here in Los Angeles. And I was an activist as a young man by Dr Carter. We used to do a lot of protests up with Hope, down with Dope, you know. So I rallied with many of our senior sages in Los Angeles Dr Charles Mims, dr PJ Strongs, dr Jumpin', joe Lee you know these are young people, that these are pastors that I saw leading demonstrations in our city. So I went and I paid my respect to Susie Pinion. I met an activist who I would never call his name. I met an activist and he asked me. He said why don't you come with me? Let me help mentor you. And so this activist no-transcript up under his wings and I'm so grateful, um, that god brought him into my life what was that like?
Speaker 2:I mean, did he give you his phone number, his email? He didn't give me his number.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he didn't give me an email. He was kind of that type of leader where I was going to have to find my way Right. And so he invited me to the National Action Network Conference and I made my way to New York City Listen at you made my way, um, to New York city, listen, and I went there with you know no uh directions other than just to get to this conference. And when he saw me at that conference I guess he realized I got something here.
Speaker 3:This man made his way there and that's when he, uh, eventually exchanged numbers with me, that's when he eventually introduced me to other leaders like myself from across the country and that's when, you know, he kind of pledged his allegiance to helping to develop me.
Speaker 2:Well, and when? At what point do you join formally the National Action Network Immediately?
Speaker 3:You know that first conference yeah, man, you know, reverend Sharpton was a magnet. I mean seeing the magnitude of this conference. I'm in a place where you know not too many preachers in Los Angeles are stepping out and saying, hey, I want to lead these marches, I want to lead these demonstrations around social justice. So I didn't really have any.
Speaker 2:No competition per se. Well, I had no one to really mentor me. Mentor got you, yeah, right.
Speaker 3:You know I had a Chip Murray but our age gap was kind of out the way you know. But you know, so Sharpton said I'll teach you.
Speaker 1:I'll show you.
Speaker 3:And right then, and there he pledged his allegiance to me, and that's when I joined National Action Network, that's when I became a leader in National Action Network, working with the local chapter here, which wasn't really fully developed. Because, again, you know, there's two Reverend Sharpton's right, there's the tracksuit controversy of Reverend Sharpton, and then there's the Sharpton controversial, reverend sharpton, and then there's the sharpton that we all know today. Yeah, you know, so he was evolving, you know, at 40, and so he he allowed me to. I watched him evolve. I watched him go from big rev to to slim rev, you know what I mean. So I watched him evolve. Yeah, I watched his politics evolved and so he. So he took me through that lesson by simply, you know, watching and seeing what was happening. You know, and so I'm grateful for that.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining us on Nuance Conversations. We invite you to return next week as we continue this dialogue. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode and share this conversation with others who may find it valuable. Until next time.