Nuanced Conversations Podcast
Welcome to Nuanced Conversations Podcast, where we dive deep into the complex and often overlooked aspects of today's most pressing topics. Each week, we bring you thought-provoking discussions with experts, innovators, and everyday people who offer unique perspectives and insights. Whether we're exploring the intricacies of social issues, science, culture, or personal development, our goal is to move beyond the surface and engage in meaningful dialogue that challenges assumptions and expands understanding. Join us as we navigate the gray areas and uncover the richness that lies in nuanced conversations.
Nuanced Conversations Podcast
When a Mother's Struggle Becomes a Son's Ministry Part 2
Pastor KW takes us behind his public persona in this remarkably vulnerable conversation about the tensions between ministry success and personal struggles. As we journey from his meteoric rise at National Action Network to becoming pastor of a struggling church in Boyle Heights, KW reveals how the expectations of church culture influenced his decision to marry young—"We were babies raising babies"—and the painful aftermath of two divorces while maintaining public leadership.
What emerges is a powerful testimony about growth and healing amid life's storms. KW speaks directly to his younger self with striking clarity: "Slow down. You don't have to get married because you have a baby on the way. Don't allow the whispers of people in the church push you to make decisions you shouldn't make." This wisdom comes from hard-earned experience navigating the unique pressures facing successful Black men in ministry and activism.
The conversation takes a transformative turn when KW discusses how his second marriage "pushed me to therapy," which became instrumental in his healing journey. His powerful declaration—"I thank God for Jesus and I thank God for my therapist"—challenges stigmas around mental health in faith communities. He distinguishes between "fake degree therapists" and trained professionals who helped him "unmask and unpack" his situations, advocating that "everybody should have a therapist."
Through candid reflections on mistakes, growth, and finding authentic strength, KW models a path toward greater transparency among leaders: "We're living in a society that's kind of fake and phony... we need to start being real with each other." His journey reminds us that behind every public success story lies a complex human experience worthy of compassion, understanding, and honest dialogue. Subscribe to hear more conversations that explore the nuance of faith and leadership in today's complex world.
Welcome to Nuance Conversations, a podcast where depth meets dialogue. Hosted by Dr George E Hurt, this show explores the great areas of life where faith, wisdom and real-world complexities intersect. No easy answers, just honest conversations that challenge, inspire and inform. Get ready to lean in, listen closely and explore the nuance. This is Nuance Conversations.
Speaker 2:So you eventually rise all the way up to regional coordinator for the West Coast.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 2:When does, how, does how is preaching marrying itself at this point with you? And when does the Willard Street journey enter in?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so you know, I rise to the Western Regional Director, I start member, I become president of LA, I become Western Regional Director and we built the greatest chapter in National Action Network history. You know, I was chapter of the year, I was leader of the year throughout this organization. We have over 100 chapters around the world, you know, and so at the end of the day, I was doing the work, I mean I was even, you know, in the conversation of who's going to replace Reverend Sharpton. I mean, people write articles and they insert my name. Reverend Tulis will possibly be one of the next leader nationally. So, with that being said, ministry never stopped, because I started preaching at 18, still preaching, still youth pastoring, still serving faithfully at the First Antioch Missionary Baptist Church, still have the foundation.
Speaker 3:Still have the foundation First to get there at church, last to leave Every Sunday. I found it a pleasure to serve Pastor Haley and, you know, ultimately things always was in place. My civil rights journey was literally part of my ministry. I felt that was ministry and in 2007, because of some of the demonstrations that I was leading around the city, a police officer that was a chairman on the board of a church, they reached out to me through another preacher named Donald Wilson and they said do you think this guy, uh, would want to lead a church here in Boyle Heights? You know, and I was, like Boyle Heights is where.
Speaker 3:And it's the. It's a region of Los Angeles, is adjacent to downtown Uh, and 99% of the residents don't speak English. So they asked that I want to lead this historic church in Boyle Heights, and so I was intrigued, you know, and you know, I submitted my resume, I went to preach a couple of times and then finally, as I was sitting there with my pastor, I get a call from one of the trustee members saying we've elected you pastor of the Weller Street Missionary Baptist Church. Can you start next week?
Speaker 3:And I'm like next week you know, I got youth events and youth programs going on. You know, I enjoy being the assistant pastor of First Antioch Missionary Baptist Church, my pastor right here. I enjoyed that, you know.
Speaker 3:I didn't think about you know, pastoring and leading a congregation. And so my pastor looked at me and said you should be excited. But I wasn't. And I was like you know, I wasn't, I was just trying it out. Uh, I've never candidated for a church before, I'm just trying it out. I'm 29 years old, you know, almost 30, um no, just turned 30. Uh, and he said well, you ought to go check it out. You know they called you to the church, come check it out. So I get to the Weller street missionary Baptist church, uh, in um 2007, I believe, um 17 years ago, and um, my first Sunday there it was four people, not four people to greet me, but literally four people in church. I'm like Lord, you ain't call me over here to preach the four people.
Speaker 3:You know what are you doing. You got well, you know, at the end of the day, you know this was 2006. I'm thankful for that call to that church and I had reservations. I didn't tell nobody. Only person that knew was my first wife. She knew I was called to a church. I didn't tell my mama. I didn't tell anybody that I'm called to this church because I just like I don't see myself going to Boyle Heights to grow or lead no church. And so that's where I found myself and I'm thankful that I. You know that God put me there.
Speaker 2:And how was that experience for you?
Speaker 3:That experience has been an amazing experience because, as I say, I got there as four people. That was literally in the church. And when I get there, you know this is 2006, 2007,. You know that word seven, that new beginning. So I marketed the service as a service of new beginning, a service of a new opportunity to really push forward and to do things in that manner. And I really took advantage of that first Sunday at 1-1-0-7. And ultimately, you know that's when that church started to grow. Friends and people start going and it's nothing like ministry, I mean, it's something that you know, it's like.
Speaker 2:you know that's something that we You're doing this with National Academic Network. You're doing this as a foundation. You've been faithful to your church. You pastored a church that most people would not even consider, you didn't want to consider. You've done all these things for the Lord. Surely your life has no issues, no problems and no troubles, man please.
Speaker 3:What'd you say? The more, the more things you do, the more problems you have, you know. So, in that, you know it's been 17 years I've been at the church. Okay, you know I've been through two divorces. You know, within the realm of my life I've been. You know I've had good days and bad days being an activist. You know you have a lot of people shooting for you, a lot of people shooting at you, a lot of people trying to what?
Speaker 1:does that look like?
Speaker 3:I mean it looks like just it's, it's to me a service, but to them, is them trying to trip you up, mm-hmm, them trying to slow you down? Maybe I, I make it look glamorous, but life is not easy. As I said at the beginning, you know my smile, you see my smile, but my story and my journey has not been easy. But I mean the Bible tell you that. I mean life is not designed to be easy. Life is not designed to be easy. And so, with that, be saying life, be lifing, raising children, marriage. Marriages are failing. You know bullets. You become targets, you become an influential person in the community and people will begin to just start making stuff up, hoping it will stick on you, on the preacher, on the preacher, really, you know, on the preacher, and I knew you was like them over there, you know. But at the end of the day, god's word is true, you know, he'll make your enemies your footstool, he'll place his covering over you and he'll see you through.
Speaker 2:I think about this personally and I wonder what you think, how much you would share, as it relates to that being intensely involved in so many things is meaningful, especially as a young age Mine is not as many accolades as yours, but definitely at a young age, connected to the church, connected involvement, that there there are spots or holes. That has not been developed as a man, which makes problems for me, relationship wise, for you marriage wise, and people see that and they will take that flaw and try to use it against you, a flaw that you already fully aware of. Yeah, um, opposed to coming alongside and saying, hey, here's how I also did this, this is how I struggled, here's how I did this, I did that. This is your space, um, as much as you feel comfortable when you look back, um at it, back at it, what and how you know your mom is a triumphant story, but still nobody still sees the cracks that can be developed in this story.
Speaker 2:And I guess also goes back to the question about the church, about you know what was your struggles. You have this mentorship but still, at least for me, it's never been to the point of, hey, you know when a woman starts yelling or doing this. Of course you're not being physical, of course we're not going back and forth with names, but how do you process the patience, the forgiveness, the involvement, the leadership to say, hey, let's have this conversation? B? Whatever the case may be for you? What does that look like? What does that mean to you? Does any of this even make sense?
Speaker 3:It makes a lot of sense. You know, I got married my first time at the age of 22. I was real young, she was young, and if we was to be honest, me and my wife my first wife we're good friends today. She still remembers my church and we're raising three amazing children. We was young, you know, and we, we messed up along the journey. You know what I mean. And and with that being said, but we, we, we birthed three amazing children, and so, you know, co-parenting and loving each other and I mean showing that love to our kids was important.
Speaker 3:But we got, we got married real young, too young, and a lot of that had to do with the church. You know, I'm I'm a minister, I shouldn't be shacking up, I shouldn't be living with someone that you're not married to, Shouldn't be having sex, shouldn't be having children. So a lot of that had to do with that, you know. And so, with that being said, we were babies, raising babies, you know. And so, through that, you know, 19 years was marriage that we just couldn't hold on to. We were both through with it, and so we both divorced, but we still had three amazing kids that we had to really co-parent with. And so, ultimately, when I think about you know just some of the nuances of life. You know sometimes, you know struggles will push you into areas to whereas you are, you become targets or you become. You know, and we live in a time of social media you know, and we have social media.
Speaker 3:We have to live to a certain standard. Through social media, people see your life, your happy life, they see the good times, they don't see the bad times. And so you're dealing with so many different struggles, so many different situations and, at the end of the day, when we put it all on paper, you know we have struggles, man, and so, you know, I had a lot of issues in my life, after divorcing for the first time to my first wife, that I had to deal with, and a lot of those struggles, did you deal with them? I did not deal with them.
Speaker 3:You know, I felt that divorcing was dealing with it, you know, and sometimes, when you're in a situation, I I won't tell people all the time drama, our trauma attracts drama, you know, and, um, it pushed me into another marriage right away, like immediately, my friend, what are you doing? Uh, what? What is it that? Why, why are you doing this? Because I was trying to cover a lot of the pains of, you know, from from. So, with that being said, um, with life and with struggles, you know, sometimes we can try to mask our, our pains and our situations and our struggles, um, by, you know, moving to other venues, which is not a good thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I guess, just for clarity, we would agree shocking is wrong, but we never have a discussion on how to flesh out that in light of biological realities, emotional realities, social realities and things of that nature. As a pastor, let's say you're a pastor in the 22 year old, you, the 21 year old, you who's thinking about these things, who's progressing, you are the pastor of young.
Speaker 3:KW.
Speaker 2:What are you saying to young KW in light of what you know? Now, at this 21 years of age, doing all these great things?
Speaker 3:What I'm saying to young KW is slow down. I'm saying to him you don't have to get married because you have a baby on the way. I'm saying to him take your time, figure out life, pray a lot more, get more into your word, you know, um, get more into your word, you know, don't allow the whispers of people of the church can push you to a point where you'll make decisions that you shouldn't make. Are you a regret down the line? I'm telling young KW take care of your responsibilities. You don't have to marry just because you know you've been intimate and you have a baby on the way. I'm saying that to young KW. And I'm saying to young KW you know, take care of everything you're supposed to take care of. Be the man that you are, but slow down and you can't perfect everything. You're trying to do kind of. You know, take your time and trying to figure out this thing called life. That's what I'm telling you, okay, w?
Speaker 2:what, what? Yeah, you gave them a lot of good advice as it relates to going into your second marriage after coming out of your first marriage. What do you think there you would have said to yourself, or advice that you would have given at that point?
Speaker 3:I'm saying to that KW take your time. I'm saying to that KW the other one was to take his time.
Speaker 2:I'm saying to that KW the other one was to take his time, yeah, but I'm saying, slow up a little bit more.
Speaker 3:You know I'm saying I'm pulling this coat tail. Like you know, you don't have to be married to pastor a church. You know I don't want to say my first marriage was a failure, but it ended in a divorce.
Speaker 3:I felt that I can do. It ended in a divorce. I felt that I can do it, I'm a loving dude. I felt that I can be a good husband. But I'm telling that, kw, it don't matter how much you love her or how much you're going to do right in this marriage, trouble, don't discriminate. And trauma attracts trauma. And so I'm saying take your time in entering that process. Look at the red flags. Are there any red flags? Are you overlooking those red flags? Because, kw, you got a big heart and you feel that you can love anybody. And as long as you love, you feel that as long as you love that person, that person is going to eventually develop that same love you have in your heart. That's not true, you know. So I'm telling that KW, take your time.
Speaker 2:KW, take your time. I haven't heard in those conversations though, the role of the church I know you're the pastor and you're saying this, but I know I asked it that way as it relates to also the other conglomerates that is making up the spear of our social influence. So I guess, being to be fair, being your brother and familiar with some of the things you went through and how other peers that may have been able to advocate in the way that brought about amending the situation, reconciliation is not always possible, but there is this thing called forgiveness, and also making sure that there is, or restoration is not always possible, but reconciliation and forgiveness is something In those reverse orders. Forgiveness and reconciliation is something that can happen when there are influences that are doing that. And I know you've received writings, I know you've received perspectives. I've never heard you, um, I never heard you suggest perfection, even in this conversation here. Maybe if I I was an ear in your ear, like, don't say that don't say that.
Speaker 2:But you have, you've been straightforward with that. Just looking back at, is there hurt? There Is there. Have there been bridges to have conversations to deal with that level of hurt and betrayal of things? Again, not in the standpoint of you've just done everything, right, right right, right, right, but just how do we, if we want to and feel the need to intervene and be in a situation, how do we do that in a way that is pro healing?
Speaker 3:So you know, in the midst of everything that I went through, it's no secret that my second marriage was just horrible. You know, from the start to the end and I say this to you, pastor that, pastor, hurt, love is real. When you love somebody, you don't want to do no harm to no one. You know you don't want to say no harm about anything. The best thing about that marriage is it pushed me to therapy, you know. It pushed me to want to better myself. And so in the midst of therapy, in the midst of me healing from this you know, second marriage failing I found myself healing from a whole lot of other stuff. You know, from a whole lot of other stuff. You know, from a whole lot of other challenges that I faced in life. This is only just a smit of what some of the things that I've been through you know. So therapy has helped me to heal and to see things from a whole different level.
Speaker 2:What does that mean? What does that, what does it mean? To go to therapy? Is it you know, you Google it? No, it means you know.
Speaker 3:So in my second marriage I hate saying first and second, I don't think the second one count, but it did. But at the end of the day, at the end of the day, as I went through this healing journey, it means finding a real therapist. You know, one of the things that I did in my second marriage is we went through family therapy together, trying to heal through the process. But these was not real counselors. These were individuals that got a degree on the internet, you know, that said a lot of good things. That was very easily to manipulate.
Speaker 2:This is not pre-marriage, this is during marriage.
Speaker 3:Pre-marriage and during marriage we went through these same counselors and so I immediately recognized that. You know these individuals wanted your money. You know they wanted to just sit there and hear you and you send them your money. But when I found a real therapist through my medical provider, you know that I seen the difference between what were some of the differences. One again a real therapist is a person that allows you to see yourself. It's not putting their own input and things of that matter, but allow you to try to figure it out within yourself, you to try to figure it out within yourself. The other therapist, again, like I say, I can tell that therapist X, y and Z and they'll take X, y and Z and throw it at this person and push you in a direction that you don't have to be pushed within, you know. So at the end of the day, you know there's a difference between these fake degree therapists and a real, bona fide, trained therapist to kind of help you to unmask and unpack some of the situations that you're going through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess for me, and helpful that would be helpful to the audience as well. Is you know what? Not specifics, unless you want specifics.
Speaker 3:Right, right, right right?
Speaker 2:What, like if you were? If God would lead you to get married again, what would you be able to say to that person as you court them or date them? That you worked on that now makes you suitable as a husband, because you know, people are people are.
Speaker 3:People are judgmental to you, whatever level you're at Right right right.
Speaker 2:So if you've been married before or you for me, you've never been married before you know it's always the lenses of negativity. So I'm not trying to cushion that or promote that way of thinking towards other people. We have enough hurt on our own weaknesses internally. We don't need those things externally. Yeah, but I mean just, you know you're at, you know one of these five-star restaurants you go to all the time uh, you may be on a yacht or something like that, it's just a joke like that, because somebody like I told you I had a yacht, but you're out.
Speaker 2:You know you're a Chick-fil-A, whatever. And hey, the reason why I'm a person that you can court is because, in light of my past yeah, in light of- my past is because I'm a loving dude.
Speaker 3:Yeah, in light of my past, is because I'm a loving dude. I'm that same loving dude that has, for the final time, uh, again, you know, and ultimately, you know, I believe that God has um, someone that's there, um, that's going to love me, that's going to support me, that's going to pray for me and that's um going to be, um, that's going to be that soulmate that we can just change the world. And you know, going into that, I recognize that how much of a great catch I am. And so, with that being said, you know, that's one of the benefits of therapy. I didn't allow the name.
Speaker 2:So you're telling this person you're a great catch.
Speaker 3:Well, that person- knew I'm a great catch.
Speaker 1:Because, I'm a you know, man listen.
Speaker 3:You know, I always say actions speak louder than words, right? Absolutely and so at the end of the day, you know, I know who I am and I know what I bring to the table.
Speaker 2:I guess what I'm trying to ask you is you know what are you trying?
Speaker 3:to ask me George. No, no, no.
Speaker 2:I guess, if I was speaking for you, I would say I'm a person that learned from my mistakes, but not just learned from my mistakes, and that's why I said as specific as you want to be yeah, mistakes. And and that's why I said as specific as you want to be yeah, um, growing up and not having that father figure yeah, that I got mentored on how to be a politician, I'll be a preacher, I'll be a pastor right, but wasn't always mentored on how to be a husband or how to be a loving and maybe indirectly, because some things are taught, some things are caught, and I'm not saying you haven't had these things happen.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying and therapy has allowed me to be more empathetic, Therapy has allowed me to be more patient, and I'm not saying that's what I wanted you to say. I would just say if knowing you, somebody knowing you intimately, and the discussions that we have, that would be something I think worthy of being highlighted in a conversation of such, but not not not just as it relates to that, but as we hinted to earlier that relationships evolve, relationship devolve, and that you have taken a lot of bullets, still navigate in a space mentally that does not harbor. Harbor envy and hate is something that I think is important.
Speaker 3:That's very, very massive, and I thank you for being my big brother, because I'm going to use that exact line going forward, but no, ultimately, no, no no, I think. Ultimately, you know, everything that I've been through in life, whether good or bad, has taught me to be the man that I am, to be transparent, to be open and honest. I mean, we're living in an internet society so anybody can spew or say anything about you, but I've learned a lot of lessons and ultimately, I've learned myself.
Speaker 3:I've learned who I am as an individual, as a leader, as a father, as a pastor, as a pastor you know, through all that I've been through, my children and my church has had to bear some of those storms that I've been through. You know, at the end of the day, you know I'm thankful that everything that I've been through has brought me to this moment where I'm able to talk about and testify, um, that God will bring you through it and God will see you through it. Uh, and all you have to do is be patient. All you have to do is be quiet and be still and God will fight your battles.
Speaker 2:What, um, I was going to ask you about, um, as it relates to black men in general, successful black men, right, is it? Your thoughts, is your analysis that this is an area that is a common struggle, especially when there's an emphasis on career, professional development, loving everybody. Is that a blind spot in your opinion?
Speaker 3:It is a very big blind gray spot, because you know what they say many are called, but few are chosen. Society that again, is flashy and only celebrate the positives of people. We tend to criticize and judge the negative of individuals, and so, at the end of the day, when we look at this world that we're living in, being a successful Black man in America, it comes with a cost. It comes with a light that so many people cannot, can't handle that spotlight, and so I think we need more opportunities and more outlets such as this, outlets such as groups where we can continue to balance and throw things off each other. I mean, one of the great things about you, man, is you always create those outlets. When it comes to ministry, when it comes to excellence, you, the man, you know you're going to throw those golden nuggets on individuals, and those that are ready to receive it will receive it and do what they're doing. And you often tell me the nuggets that I throw on you are nuggets that's thrown on you from other people. And so I think, as a successful black man, we need to continue to talk about what does this thing of success? What kind of cost does it bring? Does this thing of success. What kind of cost does it bring?
Speaker 3:Like I say, we're living in a society that's kind of fake and phony. You know, social media has allowed us to want to have a life, a desire that's fake and phony. But we need to start being real with each other. We need to start having real talk, even in the church. You know, being president of the Baptist ministers conference, I mean pastors from all across the city. We gotta be more transparent with one another. We're a lot of people are struggling, a lot of churches are struggling, but some people eagles are to. To bring them to a point where they're. They're afraid to even talk about that, you know. So we got to start broadening these conversations going forward.
Speaker 2:What about therapy?
Speaker 3:Oh man, I'm I'm a strong proponent of, of, of, of therapy. I think that most of us we need to get in, everybody should have a therapist. On my speed dial, I got a speed dial to my therapist and at the end of the day, it's something that I believe, it's an outlet that I believe will heal a lot of homes, will heal a lot of hearts, will mend a lot of minds. So mental health is important, man, and God blesses us with a therapist. I thank God for Jesus and I thank God for my therapist.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining us on Nuance Conversations. We invite you to return next week as we continue this dialogue. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode and share this conversation with others who may find it valuable. Until next time,