Episode 021 (Chivalry After Hours) - The Downfall of Metallica (Part 2)

Leo and Jaime discuss the rise of Metallica.

Metallica is a heavy metal band formed in 1981 in Los Angeles.

• Became widely known as a Bay Area band after they moved from Los Angeles.
• Discussed the origins on the their name.
• Discussed the original band members and several iterations.
• Discussed their Discography.
• The Big Four
• What made the band iconic?
• Discuss the loss of a band member.
• Discuss what they think was the downfall of metallica.

Issue a verdict.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

I'm a damn doctor! Yeah! David. We're going to bring the tea. I refuse to not drink during the podcast. Yeah. And me, Jaime. They need to make podcast equipment a lot more expensive to get some of these clowns off the air. Gather around as we discuss a modern manly approach to chivalry. So I hope you're ready because I know we are. So let's get into it. Welcome back to part two of the rise and the fall of Metallica. Metallica is one of the most successful bands of all time, and it's been listed as one of the greatest artists of all time in Rolling Stones magazine. And as of 2017, Metallica was the third best-selling music artist since Nielsen SoundScan, began tracking sales in 91. So it wasn't just an opinion by us that they were one of the greatest bands. I mean, it's pretty well known. In the first series, we talked about the... the rise of metallica in part two we'll discuss the fall of metallic and what we felt were the uh kind of the factors of that so uh let's continue if we want to start with the downfall was when cliff burton died

SPEAKER_00 1:49

yeah i think i think you're right i don't even think we uh even discussed like the first like inklings of that. And that's how it is. We're on the same page on that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

They come out with Cliff Amal, which is just a collection of old videos, old concert footage. I mean, interviews, interviews. Yeah. Old camcorder where they're just kind of, you know, in backstage and stuff like that. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 2:23

they're in convenience stores and buying beer and stuff. I remember it. It's a really cool inside look at life on the road or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Right, behind-the-scenes type stuff. The cover is like somebody kind of hand-drew their faces. It's actually called$19.98 Home Vid Cliffamall. which I always thought was cool. They produce this, or they put this out. It's compilation video footage, you know, the first video album by an American heavy metal band. I mean, it was that big. Why nobody was doing this before that is beyond me, but it is... I mean, when you have Rabid fans, right, which we were, you want more of that band, you know? Produce whatever it is, and that's, I mean, for kids at that age, you know, where you're teenagers and you're big Metallica fans, you put this out. You're going to buy it. Yeah, you're going to buy it, and you're going to watch it over and over, and you're going to dub it, and your friends are going to watch it, and you're going to tell everybody about it.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

And Poncho has to have the DHS tape somewhere, because it's not, unless it's sitting at our mom's house in the living room somewhere, it's worth the money.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

it's somewhere you know what I try to find it on YouTube and it's not there I'm hoping one of one of the metalheads out there and do us a big solid and put that out there on you know you can't get great quality because the original wasn't great quality to begin with basically a documentary

SPEAKER_00 4:08

yeah it's like a time capsule of like mid 80s like early Metallica the one the Metallica that most people cling to and remember as Metallica was

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Metallica. Right. And then, so they go on this big search for their new bassist, right? They finally land on Jason Newstead. People that listen to...

SPEAKER_00 4:35

From your favorite band, Flotsam and Jetsam. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 4:36

from my favorite band, Flotsam and Jetsam. You know who Jason Newstead is, but you don't know who... You don't really know who he is, right? And they call him Jason Newkid. And there's, you know, he looks kind of, kind of funny, you know, he's like really,

SPEAKER_02 4:52

really,

SPEAKER_01 4:53

you know, his hair is kind of weird and stuff like that, but he sounds okay. You know, you're not going to replace Cliff Burton, but just don't screw it up. Basically is, is what he's tasked with. And then they do garage days, re revisited, which I love that name. Yeah. Coincidentally, we, we did night codes and that's why I called it re or revisited. It was kind of, yeah, it was kind of a hat tip to, to that. Um,

SPEAKER_00 5:28

and that's funny. You said that, that the, uh, So VHS was called the 19, was it called the 19 or 998?

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Yeah. 19,$19 and 98 cents.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Okay. The garage days revisited. It wasn't the title. It's like, it was the five 98 garage days revisited, re revisited EP. And they were like, if, if, um, They charge you more than$5.98 to steal it. They all tell you earlier, like a cassette tape. Cassettes are back. I don't know how much cassettes, like who's been buying cassettes in 2025? You can. Why would you? But what can you get for$5.98 now? Nothing. Double cheeseburger?

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Yeah, not even that. Probably not even one for McDonald's. But, you know, if you look at that, and if you remember... it kind of, it's a precursor to the whole Napster thing. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, they've always had that kind of vibe to them. Like, yeah, if it's more than$5.98, just steal it.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

No, it's counterintuitive to the Napster thing, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Oh, yeah. Yeah, that, yes. Yeah, because Napster kind of made everything free, and these guys are

SPEAKER_00 6:49

like, hey, wait a minute. Yeah, and they're like, no, you better pay it.

UNKNOWN 6:52

You know?

SPEAKER_00 6:53

So now you're going way into the future of the downfall. That's when they were like corporate Metallica.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Their

SPEAKER_01 7:03

heels turned. So they get Garage Age re-revisited. A great little EP. I mean, I still listen to it now. It's so good. Yeah, they

SPEAKER_00 7:18

do the Mistress covers and what's the song from... The Small Hours is, I forget what band that is, but there's Budgie. There's all these other.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Diamond Head, Killing Joke, Misfits. Yeah. Of course, if you go on Spotify now, the original one was like five songs. If you go to Spotify now, it is like 10 songs, which is cool, right? Because they put on all the other stuff. Breadfan and all those other... Oh,

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Breadfan, The Prince, Emery Neville.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

They even put Whiskey in the Jar or something like that, which shouldn't be on Garage Days revisited.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Well, that's probably because they redid it, right? Garage Inc. or whatever it was.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Further into the future.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Right. And then

SPEAKER_00 8:17

as part of

SPEAKER_01 8:18

this... They did

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Don't Go Crazy, The Queen Song.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

But it was such a good album. I mean, it sounded back to kind of like Kill Em All. It was gritty. It kind of showed you what Jason Newstick could do. Yeah, yeah. You know, he also did backing vocals. I mean, I don't know if bands do that nowadays when they get a new guy. They say, you know what, we're going to do... Basically, you're listening to his audition.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

And I don't know how common that is nowadays, but...

SPEAKER_00 8:57

I didn't think of it that way, but you're right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

It's such a great album. Like, I still listen to it now. No,

SPEAKER_00 9:06

it's great. And then the outro is them doing Run to the Hills, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:11

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Off-key, Run to the

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Hills. We always come back to Iron Maiden. so so they do garages revisited re-revisited that's 1987 my my brother and i uh pancho slash jose his real name is jose but we all call him pancho i mean whatever don't make a big deal of it

SPEAKER_00 9:38

yeah

SPEAKER_01 9:39

so

SPEAKER_00 9:40

we don't need to get into the like Mentors of why Francisco is Pancho or our dad is Kiko, Francisco, Kiko, Francisco, like all that.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Yeah, everybody has different names. So we're from Dallas, right? We grew up in Dallas. We were born in Ciudad Acuña, Coahuila, Mexico. But we grew up in Dallas. Now, Dallas was the place where they had the Texas Jam. And the Texas Jam for like 10, 15 years was usually during the summer. And it was held at the Cotton Bowl. And they would have 10 bands most of the time. And this particular summer, which was the summer of 98, Metallica comes to town.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

88.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

88, yes. And... along with metallica it's van halen with

SPEAKER_00 10:40

van halen yeah

SPEAKER_01 10:41

with sammy is the ou812 tour scorpions which actually i saw scorpions a couple years well last year they still sound pretty good yeah but i was telling my wife i was like scorpions were old in 98 i mean in yeah no in 88 they were old i'll go so watching them in freaking 2024 i'm like what are we doing here but they still sounded really good i mean you know but as a kid you know it's 1988 it's the

SPEAKER_00 11:20

scorpions right metal is still like a big deal and some of this is mtv right like headbangers ball like We don't need to go into all that.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Yeah, so Scorpions was there, Dokken, which one of my favorite bands.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

We saw Dokken, me and you saw Dokken in San Antonio.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

We kind of saw Dokken. Oh,

SPEAKER_00 11:41

no. Sons, George Lynch. George Lynch.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

But this was like the Dokken, not the original. Real Dokken. Yeah, the real Dokken. And then Kingdom Come, which is a very like, Oh my God, if you know Kingdom Come, then you actually did listen to all that at that time. But you had Metallica. And this was between Master of Puppets and their future album that came out in 1988, later on that year. But at this concert, I went with my brother. And my brother at the time, I'm not going to put my brother's business all out in the street. But I was basically there by myself because he had some girl with him. And so I gave him shit for several years because I was like, I'm over here in the mosh pit and you're over here just all hugged up and shit. But anyway, I digress. Metallica. They play all the favorites. And then they play Harvester of Sorrow. And They're like, this is off the new album that's going to come out later this year. Here it is. And I was like, okay, we're back on. We're back on

SPEAKER_00 13:07

live.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Harvest or Sorrow, if you hear it and you're hearing it live, I was like, I'm in. Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

And it's not even a fact. song it's just so heavy right like

SPEAKER_01 13:18

yeah it's like yeah it's yeah you know it i was like okay you know we're in safe hands you know like like they they figured it out rest in peace clint burton but we're back on live it's such a great song right and then they produce or they they release and justice for all is a really good album i mean i'd be hard pressed to kind of crap on this album because it starts off with blackened which is like

SPEAKER_00 13:46

no it's a great i don't know it's uh yeah black end that is a great kind of throwback which at that time wasn't a throwback right it's still like thrash metal they're still heavy in this you know thrash element and then the title track is amazing

SPEAKER_01 14:08

yeah and just for all and then they You know, I believe at the time it was, hadn't they dubbed the guitars? You know, it's like it was, it sounded so clean, you know?

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

It was just crisp, clean. It just, it's heavy. There's still the DNA of Metallica in it.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

You can't hear the bass. There's no bass. So all that Jason just said, all the like accolades and like, everything you said about him, he gets his, like, moment in the sun, and you can't hear the bass. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

And part of that album they have, To Live Is To Die. Of course, Jason Newsted plays it, but it's music that was recorded, that was Cliff Burton had recorded previously before he died, and so they used it for that album, and it was, when you hear it and you know that, because, you know, back then it's just so different you know it's kind of like it's so weird thinking about it but we did pick up all the hit paraders and all these magazines to get into kind of information you read those magazines I mean we'd sit at freaking 7-11 and read them because we didn't want to buy them sometimes but yeah you didn't know some of this information unless you read stuff like that There was no internet, so it's not like...

SPEAKER_00 15:39

And then the Playboys were under plastic, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Yeah, you couldn't even see them. It's like, damn, who's old enough to buy this? But when you listen to it, you kind of, you know, you have your little solemn moment, you pour a little beer out for Cliff Burton.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Right, and then his influence is still there. Like, I feel like he, some of the music, And Justice for All, I've never looked at the writing credits, but I feel like there were concepts of a plan for it.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Concepts of a plan, that's right. So yeah, it still has the Metallica DNA.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

It's fingerprints, it has the fingerprints on it.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

And it sounds, it still sounds like Metallica. Not the gritty Metallica, it's like a slightly different Metallica, but still, the DNA is there. And so for most metal fans at the time, Metallica is still king. They're still the best thrash metal band out there. I

SPEAKER_00 16:45

feel like I know where you're going with this. Their first video, their first real accessible song, palatable song. Is that where you're going? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

You know, I wasn't going to go there, but... I was going to go somewhere else, but if you want to take it there, take it there, and then I'll tell you where I was going.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Okay. Because they were always, Metallica was like, we don't make music videos, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Because in the same way that Iron Maiden didn't need radio player, Iron Maiden made videos, right? But they didn't need MTV to be Iron Maiden.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Metallica was like, we don't need in tv we don't need anything

SPEAKER_02 17:34

right

SPEAKER_00 17:35

but in 1988 there was a whole world premiere video for one right and they had a long version that a short version and it was there was all this fanfare about it and uh um you know one it's not my favorite song you know it's not a bad song. To me, that's when they started to acquiesce to, like, be true to what they were saying all this time. Like, we're just going to do what we want to do and, you know, like, we'd like to keep that weight. Right. So they make the video. It performed on the Grammys, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Famously lost the first metal performance Grammy to Jethro Tull.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Jethro Tull. And that's exactly where I was going with it. Because as metal fans, you want to, you know, we were talking about representation in movies. Well, when the Grammy started taking heavy metal seriously, you're like, they have to win. You know, they have to win this Grammy. I mean, Just For All is a great album. And look at their competition. Jethro Tull. get out of here with that. You know what I'm saying? Get the, yeah. Iron lung, make it the, get your ass out of here with that. And then we're sitting there and I remember we, we watched it all. We watched it live and I'm sitting there and we're going,

SPEAKER_00 19:11

I remember it.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

We're going and the Grammy goes to Jethro Tull.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

It was Lita Ford and Alice Cooper that presented it. If I'm not mistaken.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

What the hell is going on? It was the worst. Oh my God. I still don't like Jethro Tull. I never liked him before. I never listened to his music. This is heavy metal. You're not heavy metal. what are you doing in this category? Yeah. And the fact that they lost to him and it was, I don't want to say devastating, but it was devastating. You know, you're like, you know, I felt like Trump, you know, this is rigged. So yeah. And the winner is best hard rock, Heavy metal recording of 1989. Jethro Tull. Man, it's one of those things. I think hopefully in the future, right? And I think we're still some ways away, but Marvel movies, comic book movies, hopefully they win, you know, a major award at some point because we're not there yet.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

No, no, no. Like, The Dark Knight could have been best movie 2008. I don't know who won. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Like, Angela Bassett should have won for Queen Ramonda in

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Wakanda Forever. That's a different podcast. Let's do

SPEAKER_01 21:01

that one. But that's what I'm saying. Like, we're not there yet to where they're taking Marvel comic book movies seriously. And I think with this one, I don't think they just took heavy metal seriously. And in 1989, everyone that was aware of this would spit up the beer they were drinking, you know, like what? And I was talking to my coworker because he's a big Jethro Tull fan or not a big Jethro, but he really liked Jethro Tull. And my first instinct when I heard that name, is F Jethro Toledo yeah and even though I don't consider myself like the biggest Metallica fan even though I was a really huge fan up until the moment we're going to talk about here in a minute I still till this day I am pissed off about that yeah just as a metal fan you know

SPEAKER_00 22:09

like I think the the emphasis is on the rise of Metallica. The fall of Metallica is fast, swift, straight to the bottom. So we don't have to spend a lot of time on it. We spend more time on the rise.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Yeah, and I think we're spending more time on the rise because, you know, back to that wrestling, right? It was like it meant something to us, you know?

SPEAKER_00 22:35

No,

SPEAKER_01 22:37

yeah. It was real.

UNKNOWN 22:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Oh, okay. Let's just, before we get to the fall, let's talk about, um, who's had a streak like that. Kill them all. Ride the lightning. Master of puppets. And, um, and just the sprawl.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Only, uh, I think only even Slayer probably can't touch that. Cause what do you got? Um,

SPEAKER_01 23:03

well, Slayer has

SPEAKER_00 23:04

rain and blood south of heaven. Um, uh, Seasons in the Abyss, that's three. I mean, Hell Awaits.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

I guess, yeah, if you start with Hell Awaits, you can get to four. And then it was good, but yeah, if you really want to talk about a solid three, then you do do Rain and Blood, South of Heaven, and Seasons in the Abyss. Those three, you can't, you know, if you add Hell Awaits, then you have your four.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Right, and then Megadeth is not, they can't, like, I mean, you got Rest in Peace, you got Peace, like, you got Peace Sells, Rest in Peace, Countdown, you're like, they're hit and miss, they don't, they can't, they can't go back to back, they're like the third. Megadeth is the third. They can't go back

SPEAKER_01 24:04

to back. Well, if you start with the first one, Killing Is My Business, it's a good album. Peace Sells. Yeah. Peace House is their, like, yeah, that's when they just kind of skyrocketed, right? You have So Far, So Good, So What, which was a good album. Rust in Peace, excellent album, right? Good thing about Megadeth is that they were just pretty consistent with their music. You know, they didn't really, you know, kind of stray from it. They just got

SPEAKER_00 24:36

better.

UNKNOWN 24:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

And then, like, after countdown, there's euthanasia, there's...

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Endgame?

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Well, that's way later, but after euthanasia, you got what's it called? Cryptic writing.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Cryptic writings, yeah. Risk?

SPEAKER_00 24:53

And then risk is when they fell off the rails. Like, you know, not to circle back, but I think Iron Maiden's the only one that can even compete, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Well, consistently, yeah. Let's say you start with just with Bruce

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Dickinson. Number of the Beast. Let's just start with Number of the Beast.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Yeah, with Bruce Dickinson. Because, I mean, I could put killers in there. But if we just start with Bruce Dickinson, I mean, there is like bangers, hit after hit, you know, with Number of the Beast. And then you have Peace of Mind, Power Slave, Sorrow in Time. Power Slave. Seventh Son, you know, maybe Don't Prayer for a Dying kind of starts fading off a little bit, but you've

SPEAKER_00 25:42

already gone. But I think they run it back after that because you go Brave New World, Matter of Life and Death, Dance of the Dead. Final Frontier. Like, I think they do the four-peat repeat or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Yeah, because when you go Brave New World, Dance of the Death, Matter of Life and Death, and then Final Frontier, and then Book of Souls, I mean, yeah, it's very consistent. I mean, I think the other one we talked about is Ice Cube, you know, with his first four albums. They're pretty consistent. They're just solid albums. Yeah. I mean, you're really hard-pressed to find somebody that just put four consistent, solid albums. You know, you have America's Most Wanted with Ice Cube, and then you have, what is it? That's not a... Lethal Injection, I guess?

SPEAKER_00 26:43

No, no, no. Death

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Certificate, my bad.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Death Certificate.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Then Lethal Injection.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

The Predator. So you have America's

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Most

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Wanted, and then Lethal Injection, and I think it stops there.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

We are an offensive hip-hop podcast. We can do that.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Yeah, we can discuss that later. But yeah, those four albums, if you go to Kill Em All, Ride the Lightning, well, yeah, Kill Em All, Ride the Lightning, Master of Puppets, and then Justice for All. I mean, those are four solid albums.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

And then some people would throw in the Black Album as number five. And some of us might say that's the start of the downfall. And some of us might not. But that's five albums. You know, they've rested on their laurels since then, I think.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

I don't know if you think that it's five or four. If Iron Maiden did the four-peat repeat, five-peat repeat. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Let's get down to the downfall. What do you see as the downfall of Metallica? We kind of alluded to it, but in your... in what is DLH, the fitness professional, as the metalhead enthusiast professional.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

You said all the preeminent, like, I forget what you said. I think it was for Metallica. I think it's hubris. I think it was, we have earned our respect. Like we have all this equity with our fans. that we can do whatever we want, and if they don't like it, somebody else will. We're going to put out what we want to put out. It's almost like what Cliff Burton said, but not, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

It's like they use that for evil.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

Exactly. Exactly. The whole thing is Metallica sold out, right? Yes. Yes. They're set up. And the Black Album. We haven't talked about the Black Album. That's the elephant in the room and shit, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Full disclosure, right? If Metallica was some random band that wasn't the preeminent thrash metal band, if it wasn't like the big one, you know, like the Kendrick Lamar big one, Metallica was the big one. And if it was just some random band that put out the Black Album, great album. Great album. You know, I listened to it Two years ago, I hadn't listened to the Black Album in 30 years. I was so disgusted when it came out. But you know what? I put it on and I cleared my mind and I knew every damn lyric of that album. I knew every song and it's a good album. I'm going to be very honest. It is a good album. for any other band in the world. But it's not a Metallica. It's not a Metallica album. It's not what I grew up with as Metallica. I remember when we bought the album, back in the day, albums came out and you would go buy them at midnight. You would go get them and you would listen to nothing but that album that whole night, the next day, and the following day. That's just what we did. We were music enthusiasts, metal enthusiasts. We listened to bands. We knew the lyrics. We knew everything about them, right? Yeah. My dad, this was Saturday morning, and our dad was like, hey, I need you to move the truck because I have to go go do something. And we have a bunch of cars, right? Our brother had a car, older brother, oldest brother had a car, my dad had a car. It was just like four or five cars in the driveway. And so I was like, all right, I'll help out. And so I jump in my brother's truck, right? Pancho's truck, which was like a 74 Ford truck, I believe. The

SPEAKER_00 30:59

light blue one?

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Yeah, the blue one. The cassette tape is in the truck, right? And so I pull out the truck and I'm sitting in the street waiting for my dad to pull out, you know, pull his car out. And I'm listening to it. And this was like the second go around, right? Because we'd listened to it the day before pretty much all day. And I'm thinking there, it is like 8 a.m. in the morning. What happened to Metallica? You know, what is this? What am I listening to?

SPEAKER_02 31:36

It was a betrayal.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

Yes, it is. It felt like an FU to all the true fans out there that supported them, that bought the records, that bought the shirts, that went to the concerts, that proudly wore the t-shirts. It was a big FU to them. And I'm going to tell you this. James Hetfield used to have on his guitar Kill Bon Jovi.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

And there was posters from Hit Parader and all that stuff where he would have killed Bon Jovi on the neck of the guitar. And then I heard an interview with him, and he said this. I'm going to paraphrase, but he said, I don't care what you think about Bon Jovi. He has a great voice. And apparently, James Hadfield had worked with the same voice, like a voice coach, that Bon Jovi used for the Blackout. And I'm like, man, bro, come on, man. You can't be like Kill Bon Jovi and then be over here talking about, I don't care what you think about him. He's great. No, bro. It ain't like that. And so that was it for me, right? I was like, I'm out. I'm out. And I get to college, right? Because I show up to... Texas A&M in fall of 92 and you can't get 20 feet from any dorm room where you don't

SPEAKER_00 33:14

listen to the Black Album

SPEAKER_01 33:17

and or Sandman you know like that's playing in every dorm room and everybody's like oh my god Metallica is the greatest band ever and they have never heard Kill Em All, or Ride the Lightning, or Master of Puppets, or Injustice for All, because this is the first time they've heard this band. And maybe it's like when we first heard it, but I doubt it. It's like,

SPEAKER_00 33:48

this ain't it. I remember Boncho was just uniquely, like, affected. Because I remember him analyzing the lyrics he was telling me. He was like, listen to this. It was like, nothing else matters. It was like, you see this? They're like, open mind for a different view. He's telling us he's telling us. Like, never care. He felt like this song, he felt insulted directly. Like James was talking to him.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

And the song, Nothing Else Matters, it's about him with his, like, spouse or whatever at the time being on the road.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

And maybe Boncho felt like, you know, he had a direct connection with James. Yeah. But, you know, and I think the Black Album and, like, there's been so much fanfare around the album and documentaries and, like, you know like deep dives into everything about it you know like talk about this riff Kirk like this is the original riff and all that stuff and I've seen a lot of it and they used you know Bob Rock as the producer which he made a lot of pop records right

SPEAKER_02 35:25

And

SPEAKER_00 35:27

he also worked with Def Leppard. He made them sound... The album sounds really heavy. It's 100% a studio creation. They layered all these guitars. You can't recreate the way it sounds. It sounds great. If you put on Sad But True... In your truck tomorrow, it sounds great, right? Like the guitars and everything. But it was produced that way.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

It's not like Kill Em All or Garage Days Revisited. It is produced to make it sound not like Metallica. Right. If that makes sense. yeah

SPEAKER_01 36:20

to give examples like he produced Wanderlust the Gavin Rosdale album he produced Dr. Feelgood he produced the Sarah McLachlan album I mean you're talking about and I get that you're trying to I know get different you know muses or You want to bring in different people to come in and do that stuff, but I'm sorry. I like Motley Crue, right? The first couple albums were really good. I mean, Livewire. Too Fast for Love. Too Fast for Love. Shout Out to the Devil. Those are good albums. But once you get to Dr. Feelgood, I'm kind of out. I'm kind of out on that album. Michael Bublé, he produced that. it's just it's not Metallica and I feel like I heard it everywhere and I just I gave up trying to fight that fight right because they would see you or they would see me and I have long hair and I have the black t-shirt and the skulls and shit and it's like Jaime you like Metallica right you know Metallica and I was like nah nah man and you just walk off yeah

SPEAKER_00 37:48

I

SPEAKER_01 37:50

don't even want to get to it it's a sore subject like it's too soon I can't I can't I can't discuss this right now like

SPEAKER_00 37:56

and then they do go on this like ridiculously long tour for the Black album like it lasts like four years or something they still sound like Metallica if you were to see them live because I have You know, I bought some of the DVDs and, you know, when we transitioned away from VHS, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

And they still sound good, right? They still sound like Metallica. Then 1996 comes along and they released this album, Load. And I'm going to tell you, your brother, Buncho, he was still all in. He was still optimistic. He was still in. He was like, let's see. Let's reserve judgment. I remember the world premiere of the Until It Sleeps video. That was when he was completely out. That was it for him. He waited until 1996. We were out in 1991. But he was able to hang tough until then because it's still Metallica. They still have it in them. It's like, what you call it, Luke Skywalker. They're still good in them talking about. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 39:13

talking about Anakin.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Yeah. And load is just garbage. Trash. Trash. And then reload. I remember reload because I was in high school. I was 17 when reload came out. And we went to see them that year, I think. And I bought the album, and I was like, it's okay. It's not Metallica. If it were any other band, like you said about the Black

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Album, if

SPEAKER_00 39:48

it were any other band, it's pretty good heavy metal. It's not thrash metal. It's not Metallica. I don't know what this is. If you put another name on the sleeve, maybe I would accept it. Then Saint Anger happened six years after that.

UNKNOWN 40:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

And your brother still buys that album,

SPEAKER_02 40:12

too.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

He is holding on for dear life. Insane Anger is just rock bottom for them because it's one of the universally panned metal albums ever. It's really bad. I don't know if you ever listened to it. Don't listen to it.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

I don't think I've ever listened to the entire album. I may have heard a couple of songs, but after the Black album... I don't ever remember listening to Load. I don't remember listening to Reload. St. Anger, I think I caught maybe 20 minutes of that documentary, whatever the hell they produced, and that was out.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

Oh, Some Kind of Monster. Yeah, Some Kind of Monster. You should watch that just for the Dave Mustaine stuff. It's just hilarious. I don't know how to describe it. We could do a whole podcast on some kind of monster we want. I don't want to, but... Then, fast forward five years after St. Anger, Death Magnetic, which is when their haphazard way to try to recapture Thrash Metal again, and it's okay, but it's not great. And people like that album. People like that album. People think that that was... a mea culpa or something you know then eight years passes and they make hardwired so self-destruct which is they try again to make another trash album and this one is a little better but still just trying to recapture something that is like gone right like

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

You're never going to have that magic again. And then also, when did Jason Neustad leave in? St.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

Anger, I believe.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

Yeah, he leaves then. And then they get Robert Trujillo from, right, from Aussie.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

Suicidal, Aussie,

SPEAKER_00 42:23

yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then they put out an album two years ago, which I never, I haven't listened to. I was going to listen to it just as research for this podcast, but I can't do

SPEAKER_01 42:33

it. Yeah. I think my research ended in 91. Cause

SPEAKER_00 42:45

I've listened to all of these albums except for the new one. And I even told you, I was like, I'll listen to it just to have some thoughts on the new album. Don't want to be like, not have all the information, maybe 72 Seasons is, you know, like, a great album. And I'm just selling them short. But the songs I did hear from that record, there's other, like Iron Maiden still making great music. Right. You know what?

SPEAKER_01 43:14

Just because we're doing this podcast, I might go back and listen to 72 Seasons. Just... clear mind and give my honest feedback and maybe we'll do a recap of it but I'm willing to do that but like I said and oh my god like you know Metallica was it wasn't even my favorite band right like I think I was on the right side of history with picking my band but but I was a big fan And when they put that album, the black album out, I don't think, I don't think, you know, how they say, you know, what is it? Being bitter or holding a grudge is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die or some shit like that. Yeah. Yeah. That's where I am. Like, it's just, to me, it just, it just felt like a big F you to every, every fan out there. When they put out the Black Album, it's just not a Metallica album. But for the purposes of this podcast, I will listen to 72 Seasons. And maybe when I do some editing to this podcast and we release it, I'll kind of give a quick review of it.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

I can tell you there's a song on 72 Seasons that sounds exactly like Eye of the Beholder. And everyone's like, that's Longest Fire. I'm like, yeah, I liked it a lot in 1988 when it was called Eye of the Beholder. You can't just recycle riffs and try to fool people that are fucking just born 15 years ago. We're still here, Metallica. We hate you,

SPEAKER_01 45:11

but

SPEAKER_00 45:11

we're still here.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

You know what they need to do is they need to dig up All of Cliff Burton's old riffs that he never, you know, kind of put on an album and make an album with that. Yeah. And maybe, maybe a

SPEAKER_00 45:29

mic on. My, like, final thing, like I was thinking about in my head, I think the stability in Metallica is, you know, like, Metallica and Slayer had the most stability with band members. Right. And Megadeth and Anthrax have just, you know, they've changed things. Like, Anthrax has changed singers, you know?

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Yes, they did for

SPEAKER_00 45:57

a while. And Metallica and Slayer. Yeah. Metallica and Slayer kind of have stuck to, like, their five or six.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

Well, Jeff Hanneman passed away.

SPEAKER_00 46:08

And it just made me think of, like, consistency and when you know just to circle it back to like sports in baseball you want when you have a good pitcher and catcher situation right like the battery in football you want the head coach and the quarterback right yeah

SPEAKER_01 46:30

franchise QB

SPEAKER_00 46:32

one franchise quarterback you know and basketball you gotta have it's changed over time but like you'd have like the Shaq and Kobe situation. And I just think that Lars and James are the driving force of Metallica, just like Kerry King and Tamariya have been the driving force of Slayer. And Megadeth is just Dave and St. And that is Scott Ian, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:02

Scott Ian, yeah, I think he's the driving force. I mean, if we go back to KISS, I mean, it's Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley, yeah. Yeah. Good callback. That's

SPEAKER_01 47:16

right. That's what we do around here. We circle it around.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

Anyway, that's my final thoughts on all of this.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

Okay, so then... You know what we do on the podcast is we have a, what are we board approved on the fall of Metallica or the rise of Metallica? Still

SPEAKER_00 47:38

worth listening? First five albums. Like how many? We have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven Metallica albums. The board approved the first five and not the last six.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

Yeah. Well, the last one is still kind of pending. I'm going

SPEAKER_00 47:58

to listen to it. Okay. 72 seasons will be the time breaker.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:05

And that'll sway it either way. Like, I'm just going to throw in the black album as, you know, just because it's one of these albums that still sells copies. Like people still are buying the black album. Answer Sandman. Once you get into like, you know, um, stadium music like welcome to the jungle you know like once you reach that yeah if you're gonna walk

SPEAKER_01 48:33

yeah to a football stadium you're gonna listen to a metallica song

SPEAKER_00 48:39

yeah like or or like back in black or with uh thunderstruck

SPEAKER_01 48:44

thunderstruck yeah with the with the cowboy cheerleaders yeah

SPEAKER_00 48:50

exactly once you get to that level you're just in the zeitgeist you're in the or like omnipresent.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

You know, We Will Rock You or Seven Nation Army. Yeah, exactly. Seven Nation Army. I mean, if you...

SPEAKER_00 49:08

Seven Nation Army.

SPEAKER_01 49:09

That thing, it plays everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

Like Queens, all that stuff, like Interstand Man is one of those songs. So you kind of have to include that in their great albums, even though I reluctantly do it. Yeah. The Rise and Fall of Metallica. with the Black Album and it just went downhill from there

SPEAKER_01 49:32

yeah I'll amend your statement and I'll say that the fall started with Cliff Burton's death yeah and and then it it bled out with the Black Album I mean that's just that's just from somebody that was kind of sitting there as a kid you know 14 years old listening to Metallica and then Lo and behold, you're over here and you're 15, 16 years old. And it's like, yeah, I'm out. I'm just saying. One is aggressive, masculine. And the other one is like, you know, I'm in my feelings. I'm telling you about what I'm feeling right now. And that's the Black Album. I think the Black Album, I don't know if they were like on the cutting edge of letting me get in my feelings. but it just did not sit well for a kid full of testosterone wanting to break shit and get into a friggin' mosh pit, you know? Yeah, so there you go. There you go. Board approved. Where's my gavel? So we'll say board approved the first five albums, and then we'll leave the last album, and I'll leave my review on it.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

Yeah, board approved.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

there is a rise and there was a fall of metallica one of the greatest heavy metal bands and the fall was swift it was quick i think you you said a very very very apt description of it it it came quick and it took us all by surprise so um hopefully you know Whenever James Hetfield and Lars Ulrich listens to this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

And I didn't even talk about S&M and Lulu and some of that stuff. We didn't go all the way.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

So there you go. Board approved. Well, I appreciate you coming on the podcast, but that's it. Any parting words? Before we close it out.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Iron Maiden is better than

SPEAKER_01 51:55

Metallica. That is true. There you go, guys. Iron Maiden is better than Metallica. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others. Post about it on your social media and or leave a rating and review. To catch all the latest from us, you can follow us on Instagram and X. So thanks again, and we'll see you next time.