LARCANs & Larrikins

In Episode 8 of the Aquatics Only podcast, hosts Luke Daly and David Stennett dive deep into the world of aquatics with special guests Michelle and Brooke from LARCAN. Continuing the discussion from the previous episode on the "Four F's" of form, function, feasibility, and future, the team explores the complexities of aquatic facility design, management, and community impact. Michelle and Brooke share invaluable insights on creating sustainable, community-centred facilities that go beyond aesthetics to meet operational needs. With humour, banter, and some friendly jabs, they cover everything from avoiding costly design mistakes to engaging communities effectively. Perfect for aquatics professionals and enthusiasts alike, this episode sheds light on the passion and expertise behind successful facility management.

Tune in to learn how strategic planning and genuine community focus can transform aquatics centers into vital community assets!

Thanks for listening to Aquatics Only. If you’re in swim schools, aquatic facilities, lifeguarding, learn-to-swim, programs, products, or anything water safety related, you’re in the right place.

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Transcript

Luke Daly (00:01.118)
Welcome back to episode eight of the Aquatics Only podcast where we are going to dive, dive deep, deep dive. We're going to dive deep into the world as an extension of our 4F's podcast last week. As we highlighted, Dave and I are surface level on some of this stuff, but we are eager to learn because we are relatively new to this sector. But who better to talk to than Michelle and Brooke. No, not you, David.

Michelle (00:09.262)
you

Brooke Atkins (00:09.686)
You

David (00:14.178)
Rock.

David (00:26.348)
than me.

Luke Daly (00:28.916)
Who better to talk to than the actual professionals, Michelle and Brooke from LARCAN. Welcome Michelle, welcome Brooke. Thank you for joining us. and David's here too, just in case anyone was wondering. David's here as well. So Michelle, Brooke, thank you for joining us.

David (00:29.476)
sorry.

Yes.

Brooke Atkins (00:40.898)
Yeah.

David (00:42.38)
I am in there.

Brooke Atkins (00:44.364)
Thanks for having us guys.

Michelle (00:45.23)
Thanks guys, great to be here.

Luke Daly (00:47.411)
This actually, sorry Dave, you go.

David (00:48.29)
So I was going to say, you're right. Last week, for those who heard last week's podcast, worth going back and listening to we laid a foundation for the four F's and Luke and I very quickly, we realized that we've got all these sorts of thoughts, opinions and ideas, but they needed to be strung together by genuine professionals who are living and delivering on this. And we, we thought who better to have on. And we said this last week. So we are delivering by bringing

Brooke Atkins (01:07.404)
you

David (01:14.902)
LARCAN into our podcast today to help us tie these four F's together. So really are excited to have the professional proven capability of you joining us today on the podcast. So genuinely, thanks for making some time for us and our listeners today.

Brooke Atkins (01:33.43)
Thanks, Dave, thanks Luke. And I'm genuinely keen to hear what these four F's were now. It sounds like they were made up a little bit, so we always love to verify facts. yeah.

Michelle (01:37.933)
Thank you.

David (01:38.006)
Hahaha

Michelle (01:41.582)
That doesn't sound like the F's we use in our office,

Luke Daly (01:43.571)
Well, this is the thing, we left it open to interpretation, didn't we? So that was maybe strategic on our part. And I have had feedback from other listeners out there going, they're not our standard F's either. So we called it four F's, we tried to bundle it into four, but I think we ended up with six or seven ourselves. So don't limit us to that. As we kick off, you guys are prolific. I think Dave mentioned that at the start, but Michelle, for those who don't know you, can you tell us a bit about yourself?

David (01:44.074)
Hahaha

Brooke Atkins (01:54.986)
Hahaha

Brooke Atkins (02:01.794)
you

David (02:10.397)
Yeah.

Michelle (02:12.14)
Yeah, sure. So I'm showing my age now, but I think I've been in the industry for over 20 years officially now. So I started as a teenage lifeguard. So that was sort of how I earned my money through uni and basically worked in any role you can think of in public leisure and aquatics. But after graduating from university studying sports management and exercise science, it was just natural.

went into sports management roles. So anything from your center manager to area manager to state manager, and then I guess move right into the executive suite roles. So chief operating officers and CEO roles. And then, you know, not to

break the story about how LARCAN started, but obviously met Brooke through that journey. Really enjoyed working together, but we went from, yeah, I guess, working in, know, overseeing, guess, I think at one point we had over 100 centres in our portfolio, teams of two and a half thousand staff and probably, I don't know, asset values of probably 500 million plus. So yeah, a bit to be responsible for. thought we'd...

David (03:10.643)
Amazing.

Brooke Atkins (03:11.756)
Yeah.

Michelle (03:20.51)
leave all of that to start a consultancy but I'll talk about that later. Obviously just do a couple of industry roles as well. on the Deputy Chair on the IACS Australia New Zealand Board and do a little bit of involvement with with parks and leisure. So yeah, that's kind of the journey.

David (03:34.974)
Yeah.

Luke Daly (03:43.216)
well and truly equipped, sorry Dave, I thought you were going to jump in there, but well and truly equipped to be the professional that we knew you were. And yeah, if I wasn't intimidated before, which I was, am now certainly, and I fear it's going to get worse.

Brooke Atkins (03:47.617)
you

Michelle (03:49.742)
you

What?

David (03:54.63)
It's a mixture. I know I'm with you. I think there's a growing mixture of being impressed and intimidated, which is a good place to be by people who are outstanding professionals of what they do. So that's a massive, all right. I'm keen to hear Brooke.

Michelle (04:03.342)
Thank

Brooke Atkins (04:12.62)
Well, I'm just laughing at the silence at the end there of your bio, Michelle. can definitely see the... Yeah. One of the F's here.

Michelle (04:15.963)
I didn't know if I swore then. was like, did I just say something I wasn't supposed to?

David (04:21.127)
No, what do you say after all of that? I think the only thing that can sort of add to that right now would be Brooke. So we best let Brooke speak.

Brooke Atkins (04:24.31)
Yeah

Brooke Atkins (04:30.757)
No, happy to jump in there, but I just want to say on the record, she's got a couple more years on me with the age, so she's got a little bit more experience. yes. No way.

Michelle (04:39.384)
Six months, guys, it's six months for the record.

David (04:41.031)
Hahaha

Luke Daly (04:42.618)
And same for me and Dave, just in case anyone was wondering.

David (04:45.907)
Six months and 13 years.

Brooke Atkins (04:46.006)
Yeah. No, I actually had a little bit of a different start to Michelle. So I know she's obviously grown up from from the lifeguard position through the industry. I started sort of in sport and then community youth work, and then moved into local government actually overseeing a lot of the contracts for aquatic facility management. So was on the other side of the fence to what we are now, which actually does help.

down the line to kind of really understand the position of the operator and the asset owner or asset manager. So yeah, from there went into facility management actually at Cook and Phillip in the city of Sydney was my first position and then moved up through the wire and that is where I met Michelle. So we worked quite closely together from there on in. I think she just come back from having a baby actually when we met. So yeah, moved up through to essentially running

the portfolio of recreation and children's services where there was quite a large remit of aquatic facilities. So it's definitely a passion project, it's worked in to be that. So yeah, I've absolutely loved honing the skills on both sides of the fence again, which really helps you understand the position again of both sides of the fence. So yeah, that's how we ended up where we are today.

David (06:06.223)
.

You know, the journey from, as Michelle was talking like you from starting out, money for university, very important, incredible motivation, again, impressive, but right through you go there, there are career pathways within our industry and opportunities to make, not even follow the path that's before you, but create one of your own that, that the two of you as a dynamic duo seem to have done.

I would love to Luke, are we okay just to start moving into some of that partnership now what that's created with LARCAN and what LARCAN actually is and does.

Luke Daly (06:42.672)
Yeah, I think so. For me, what's in a name? And I suppose that's, that's where I'd like to start. What is in the name LARCAN?

David (06:46.361)
Yeah.

Brooke Atkins (06:50.816)
Your best to hit this Michelle, think the back of the serviette story needs to come out.

Michelle (06:54.38)
Yeah, look, it did start. I feel like I shouldn't say beer again, but it did actually start over some beer, but some ciders. yeah, look, we, I guess came together and thought, I think we were very passionate about the industry and we'd been doing what we were doing for a very long time. And we used to engage consultants in our past roles. So we just kept sort of seeing, I guess,

David (06:54.99)
Luke Daly (06:56.252)
Feels like an exclusive ladies and gentlemen.

Brooke Atkins (06:58.626)
Yeah.

David (06:58.796)
Yeah.

Brooke Atkins (07:03.232)
you

Michelle (07:21.29)
I'll call it, it was mistakes, whether that be through design of facilities, it also was in feasibilities, just really not adequately looking at the costs and the life cycle costs of the facilities, right through to Brooks, but really great background in community is not really either operating or designing to the bespoke needs of the community. So we kept trying to, I guess, influence what we could within a management group.

But sometimes and most times the management and operation of the facility comes last. So when there's designers and landowners and asset owners around a table, they don't know how they're going to manage the facility. So they often don't bring in the management group to the last step. And that's where we kind of came together over some beer and said,

Do reckon we could start a consultancy? maybe after a few more, went, yeah, let's, let's do it. So, yeah, obviously those conversations continued to progress, but ultimately the name LARCAN took us about an hour or two, playing with a bunch of different acronyms, getting on the business website and going, nah, that name's taken, that name's taken. So there wasn't too much science behind it, to be honest. And then we landed with LARCAN, which is actually an acronym. It's simple.

Brooke Atkins (08:41.207)
you

Michelle (08:44.842)
It's Leisure Aquatic Recreation Consultants Australia, New Zealand. So, and then we try to make sense of that. So we were pretty pumped when we found out it wasn't taken. So that's the story of the name.

Luke Daly (08:57.921)
I love that. And also two questions. Had you switched to the red wine by the time that you'd discovered the acronym or was it still on the beer?

Michelle (09:08.814)
I actually broke, I feel like we went Grey Goose that night, didn't we? Yeah, was a top shelf moment. It was a top shelf moment.

Luke Daly (09:11.29)
Wow.

Brooke Atkins (09:11.488)
Yeah, it was definitely the fine stuff. Yeah. Top shelf.

David (09:12.778)
Luke Daly (09:13.978)
That's dangerous. Yeah, no, that's good. that's, and are we talking like, do we have mixes or like cheersing like we're like celebrating? It sounds like a very big celebratory moment. Dave and I shared the same thing with Aquatics only. No Grey Goose though. We were probably driving.

David (09:25.961)
Bye.

Brooke Atkins (09:27.33)
Mm.

Michelle (09:28.284)
We're all about the health obviously so he went soda water.

Luke Daly (09:31.141)
That's very healthy. Yeah.

David (09:31.325)
Yeah, yeah, no. Luke and I did too, for sure.

Brooke Atkins (09:31.478)
Yeah

Michelle (09:33.005)
Yeah.

Luke Daly (09:34.906)
And because we've referenced beer a couple of times, Michelle and Brook, you can jump in here too. Are you lager girls? Are you more of a, you know, a IPA? Like where do you land? Are we fruity? And we go stone and wood.

Brooke Atkins (09:49.952)
Well, to be honest, Michelle's lying a bit. She's not a beer person. It's cider and really there's one choice for cider in terms of the diversity. Yep. But for the beers, I'm going to say, I don't mind starting with an XPA. I love a bolter, but lagers sort of take you through the night. think they're not as strong. So it's a little bit of a mix. Yeah, that's, it's common thing, Luke. Yeah.

David (09:55.262)
Yeah, that's my people.

Luke Daly (10:01.188)
Good. Yeah, heck yeah.

Luke Daly (10:08.773)
So Michelle's trying to be tough there, Brooke, she? Like by saying she likes beer when she actually just likes soda.

Michelle (10:14.498)
Yeah, always trying to keep low-fo.

David (10:15.304)
Ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, if you're just tuning into our podcast, welcome to Alcoholics Only, where we seem to have changed the topic of our podcast. Please enjoy.

Brooke Atkins (10:21.928)
Hahaha

Luke Daly (10:27.394)
Yeah, look, it's just a couple of reference points, but we do come together over community, which often does require a couple of sherbets. Not too many.

Brooke Atkins (10:27.554)
Yeah.

Michelle (10:27.682)
Ha

David (10:37.043)
think hang on hang on we call this networking all right let's let's go with this it's networking I'm not drinking I'm networking yes

Brooke Atkins (10:37.154)
you

Brooke Atkins (10:40.598)
That's right.

Luke Daly (10:41.773)
to edit.

It's official. It's official. The other part that I want to get stuck into is because you guys don't live in the same vicinity, do you? So how do we make that work?

Brooke Atkins (10:55.294)
No we don't and Michelle will always tell you, well Michelle always tell you she lives in God's country and everyone we've ever worked with gets to hear that line.

David (11:02.259)
She's in Queensland?

Michelle (11:03.86)
No! I said God's

Luke Daly (11:06.042)
Yeah, we know, we heard.

David (11:06.052)
That

Luke Daly (11:09.946)
Port Mac is, Port Mac is very nice.

David (11:10.783)
I'm sorry.

Michelle (11:13.186)
Geez.

Brooke Atkins (11:14.422)
It is nice. I'm based in Victoria or Melbourne specifically. So in the heart of the sport and rec action. So we've got a little bit more variety with restaurants, bars, just generally people and diversity, which I quite enjoy.

David (11:22.174)
Yeah.

Luke Daly (11:28.506)
feel like we could run a corporate fight night here between you two just with these subtle jabs that are coming across, eh? Brook's selling a lot of rocks here. Eh?

Michelle (11:33.954)
Yeah, constant. It's constant. It's what I have to put up with on a daily basis, Luke.

David (11:35.475)
Yeah.

Brooke Atkins (11:38.784)
We don't miss an opportunity.

Luke Daly (11:38.838)
Do you know what the hardest part though here for me is, is Dave and I like all we've got to hang our hats on is banter and you guys are eclipsing us a banter at the moment as well. not only better looking, smarter, way more equipped and now you're hitting us on the bees. That's harsh.

Michelle (11:41.774)
you

Michelle (11:46.446)
you

Brooke Atkins (11:47.464)
Yeah

David (11:47.613)
Yeah, it's pretty good. We, we, yeah, we, yeah, we hand this podcast over to you. It's now yours. It's in your hands now.

Brooke Atkins (11:54.847)
Yeah.

Luke Daly (11:57.86)
That's, that's right. Have a nice day. Thank you so much. All right. So we've got the story of LARCAN. We've got the background of Brooke and Michelle as well, both of which are awesome. And I suppose now we go into some passion points because sometimes the passion leads us. It's not always about the other stuff, but their passion needs to come through at the top to do what we do. So what would be the one thing that keeps you?

David (12:01.286)
Yeah. See ya.

Brooke Atkins (12:02.252)
Yeah

Luke Daly (12:27.787)
in this space. We all got attracted to this space in a way, but what's the one thing that keeps you guys here?

Brooke Atkins (12:35.138)
Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to start there. And I know she's got a few of her own, but I think there's still a lot of opportunity in this industry to improve some things that we see happening every day. And Michelle touched on it, you know, we do get engaged actually down the line for coming in and trying to save council some money on their operational expenditure with design flaws. And it does sound a little bit harsh, but they are all completely avoidable. So I think

for us to really strive to get the engagement happening really early on community projects because they really do have a profound impact on communities, these facilities to improve the position again from a finance perspective for council. So they are sustainable because we do get engaged to say, can we actually make an alternative use of this facility because running a pool consistently for the next six years with this type of loss isn't feasible.

David (13:15.524)
you

Brooke Atkins (13:31.744)
And we think that that's just, again, a real shame for communities. So I think coming in and trying to influence at the start of a design project, holistically with the right people, you've got engineers, you've got architects, and again, having a discussion on what's going to make sense for that community, again, bespoke to a community and not have that as an afterthought, and then working together along the line to get design right. And then generally speaking, you can see a really...

David (13:41.882)
you

David (13:57.476)
Wrong.

Brooke Atkins (13:58.314)
efficient facility that the community can get great use of. That's, I think, the ultimate goal we're always striving for and it just does not happen consistently. So I think to try and influence that, again, through advocacy, but also work with our councils is really a big driving point of what we do.

David (14:16.217)
You know, this ties in beautifully, Brooke, to what Luke and I were talking about last week. And we haven't set you up properly for the four F's yet, but two of those four F's and there's contention between them. And it's not just limited to our little part of planet earth and our industry, but it's form versus function. And both are important. We want beautiful spaces, but those beautiful spaces quickly become inefficient spaces that we don't want to be if they're not functional. And

Brooke Atkins (14:25.378)
you

David (14:46.028)
I think that's part of what you're talking to. Obviously you're helping create spaces that do work. And we'll get to that. But can I ask from both of you, have you got any example stories? Because we kind of see them, we hear about them in the background that you can share of where you go. Yeah, that was well intended, but might've been a bit of a fail.

Michelle (15:07.374)
so many come to mind. Brooke, you're probably thinking of 102, but yeah, I think this is one of the main passion points for us because coming from our background, we were often handed the keys to these facilities and we didn't have the input from the start. That's how our journey began. So, God, I mean, you can take it up a hundred different ways, but some, guess.

David (15:09.58)
or what?

David (15:23.467)
Right.

Michelle (15:34.766)
The layout of a facility is huge. It impacts so many different variables from staffing efficiencies to customer satisfaction to safety. We have seen some absolutely shocking laid out facilities that don't make sense on any level right through to, I guess, some real safety ones, which actually, if you need to manage them appropriately, which as an operator you do, for instance,

Everyone loves water features and the big splashy whale in the middle of the pool and these, you know, wonderful things, but they don't always work well when they're in a body of water. So what that means is to be able to see, you know, every angle for a lifeguard, you might need to all of a sudden put four lifeguards on a particular pool because it wasn't designed well. Those things are fantastic in a zero depth splash park, but they don't always work well when they exist in a

David (16:26.634)
Mmm.

Michelle (16:32.706)
body of water and that's where near drownings and incidents can happen. But also councils aren't aware so they didn't engage an operator. They've expected they need one lifeguard on because you know they looked someone was a little bit lazy in the feasibility and said one lifeguard to a hundred participants but they didn't think about the four or five blind spots that design was going to lead to.

And then there's some just real funny ones that we've had. think we both managed this facility once, but my favourite was we had a facility that had all the lighting right through the middle of an indoor 50 metre pool. It's actually quite common. But you could only change the light bulbs by hand.

Brooke Atkins (17:14.656)
Mmm.

Michelle (17:15.264)
So it actually required a full center shutdown, draining off the pool, cherry picker in the 50, just to get up and change your light bulb. I mean, like, you know, there's, there's, I mean, there's so many different ways we could look at.

Luke Daly (17:27.639)
I mean, that just feels like an obvious one though, but also at the same time, it leans into that joke of how many people does it take to change a light bulb. So that's kind of funny.

Brooke Atkins (17:30.322)
Yeah, you think so.

Michelle (17:35.758)
Yeah, it was about eight to 10 in that case. yeah, and do you know what the one thing I think when we're and it's good because we're just starting to, guess, get the message out there. And we say it to architects all the time. If you if you actually go to a beautiful center where they just cut the ribbon and they're walking through, walk through with the architect, but then walk through with the center manager or the operator to see the difference in things that they point out.

Brooke Atkins (17:35.827)
Yeah!

Luke Daly (17:38.368)
Far out.

Michelle (18:02.848)
So yeah, the more we kind of get in at the beginning, we can say to them, guys, where's the storage? That's always the one that's usually forgotten. And that's why you see reels and learn to swim platforms, you know, all dumped in.

David (18:18.459)
machines, ropes, sport equipment, all dumped in a corner and trip hazards.

Brooke Atkins (18:21.406)
in the grandstands. Yep, yep, exactly.

Michelle (18:22.476)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, you've probably got more there, but there's so many, I guess. Yeah.

Brooke Atkins (18:30.819)
I think you've covered off the good ones, but you're right. think sometimes we get carried away with how something looks rather than how something functions and you can achieve both, I think, but certainly the sculptures and things.

David (18:39.993)
Yes.

They shouldn't be mutually exclusive goals, right, Brooke?

Brooke Atkins (18:45.43)
Correct, yes, I think it's achievable in some capacity. But yeah, we often joke sometimes the sight lines are best achieved by being in the pool just because of some of the mazes and mosaics and things that come in the middle. And whilst they again, they do look great, they do cause significant costs to rise. So again, avoidable.

David (19:06.915)
Yeah, look, I think there's going to be a lot of people listening to this just either nodding their heads in agreement or shaking their heads in disbelief and many in frustration. It's like watching that TV show Utopia for anyone who works in government. feels like a documentary with some of the stuff that goes on and we could probably make a funny TV show around an aquatic center operations and design life.

Michelle (19:15.79)
you

David (19:32.706)
that form and function shouldn't be mutually exclusive. I was recently at a brand new center that shall remain nameless. And you go, it's beautiful. It's just beautiful. But then you look at the growth that's scheduled for that area, the population is scheduled to double in the next 20 years. And you go, where are these people going to go? Where are the kids actually going to learn to swim? And storage, I hadn't even thought about storage. That didn't exist.

Brooke Atkins (19:53.515)
Yeah.

Brooke Atkins (19:57.204)
Yeah, and Dave, you make a really good point because we've seen the other end of the scale too, where obviously councils are there to represent communities and when they do do an engagement process and they get a wish list from the community, sometimes that translates to actual design specifications where, you know, let's do a 50, 25 water slides, one of everything.

but you've got a community of five to 10,000 people. So we've also seen the other end of the spectrum where you're not really building for the bespoke needs of community, whether that's a significantly growing population or whether that's a small population that has really sort of straight line growth projected over the next 20 years. And you say, look, this is a fantastic facility, looks great, but you will not get the utilization and...

David (20:30.068)
you

Brooke Atkins (20:45.814)
the need from the community. So the OPEX and sustainability of this facility will actually come into question as soon as you open it. So these both ends of the scale, I think that we've seen in that regard.

David (20:57.868)
Yeah.

Luke Daly (20:58.751)
Yeah. The over-engineering and also the under-engineering of it. Now, if we were playing our four F's bingo, which we're not, you've hit three of the four so far. So form, function, feasibility, Michelle, you, you took that one and there's still one remaining, which I'm sure we'll get to. do you know that the question that I have is where is the start of this process? Is it with the councils? Is it with the architects? Is it with, where does it start? Where's the process that you guys can jump in on in terms of order?

Brooke Atkins (21:02.085)
Exactly.

Michelle (21:05.185)
Thank

David (21:24.107)
.

Brooke Atkins (21:30.262)
Yeah, but to be honest, this is a really good point. And we actually attended an industry event a couple of weeks ago, months ago now time actually flies. But we were talking about where does the accountability come because there's an argument to say it starts with councils because they've got the money to then put the specification on the market and get the design.

David (21:35.978)
.

Brooke Atkins (21:51.483)
requests out there. But there was actually a further question to say maybe it's with the funding bodies that actually allocate 30, 40, $50 million that aren't really asking the question of what have you got in mind for this money and have you tick these boxes like.

going out and engaging with communities, researching your community needs in a gap analysis, or engaging with environmental experts, architects and operators to really understand how this money is best used. So the accountability piece is an interesting point because I do think there does need to be a, not just reporting, have you expended $50 million? It's what are you intending to spend it on and what process will you go through to ensure that this is a responsible use of your funds that the community will really benefit

David (22:24.847)
you

Brooke Atkins (22:36.157)
from? So I think that's a valid question right right at the start.

David (22:38.688)
you

Luke Daly (22:40.35)
Yeah, I think so too. And then there's, suppose we temper and we've talked about this as well in previous episodes, but we temper this balance between specifically in council owned and operated pools, not so much in the, in the management companies, because the management companies are there to drive profit while balancing, but primarily to turn a profit in which, you know, brings heaps of jobs to the community, which brings a lot of engagement and fun and that kind of thing. But you talk to some places and

I think I was hearing a story from you guys before about one of your recent clients in a regional environment that you guys identified a million dollars worth of savings that you could make for them. Some of these councils, they live in the portfolio of community. Therefore the loss making is actually acceptable. It boggles my mind. I don't really understand it, but they seem to be okay making three or $4 million loss or then

David (23:19.537)
I think.

Brooke Atkins (23:28.866)
Mm.

Luke Daly (23:34.129)
You know, a new employee comes into council and they go, no, no, we need to work off a cost recovery model. And we need to trim some of that fat and some of that expenditure. But I suppose, I assume, cause this is your world, not mine. Are there some easy ways that you just, in effect, not wasting money? Like is there things that you can pull in? Sure. They can still exist for the purpose of community benefit. You know, they're not going to turn massive profits or don't need to even, but what are some of those tweaks?

David (23:39.673)
Yeah.

Luke Daly (24:01.885)
Don't give away your trade secrets, but just give us a surface level stuff.

Michelle (24:01.9)
Yeah. No, no, we're always happy to share because if it means a betterment of the industry and better outcomes for communities, we're happy to share our learnings. And I think the industry can do more of that, to be honest. honestly, it sounds a bit cliche, getting it right from the beginning is the biggest, I guess, key to ensuring these things don't happen. Often what we do see is what I guess you just call it tick box.

kind of whether that be consultation or tick box, we've collaborated with an operator. So what we see, and this is often can happen a lot in regional communities or communities where the old, know, 60 year old 50 metre seasonal pool, it's come to its end of life and the council wants to know, we want to redevelop it and it turns into a multifaceted leisure facility. And what they do to tick the box of operational expertise is they speak to

David (24:32.378)
Yeah.

David (24:38.015)
you

David (24:54.412)
you

David (25:00.922)
you

Michelle (25:00.99)
the operator of that pool who's probably only ever operated a 50 meter seasonal pool. They've never operated a multifaceted site. They show them the proposed designs that they probably only worked out with an architect and they tick the box. Yes, we did get operators to come in and review the design, but that's something that obviously we're very passionate about is you need an operator who has experience in what you're also developing for.

David (25:26.757)
you

Michelle (25:30.07)
And we're actually working at the moment with a local government client in Sydney who are looking at developing a brand new facility. And what happens, Luke, is they usually always focus on the design and the construction costs. That just seems to be time vision. They're trying to adjust. And sometimes they've been given grant fund, like Brooke said. They've been given 60 million and they're trying to work a design into the construction cost. But we've come in and said,

David (25:45.05)
Right.

Michelle (25:58.944)
Okay, you've got four designs. Let us build the best, worst and realistic case operating budget for all four models. And also on top of that, the life cycle costs, because we always forget those. So that's the maintenance costs. You've got to maintain these for 50 plus years and retiling and new plant root, you know, poor plants, they cost, you know, so we worked with this client and showed them the four different scenarios.

Luke Daly (26:12.828)
Correct.

David (26:19.725)
Very good.

They do.

Michelle (26:28.162)
The fun part was they all were on the $60 million design and construct, but the actual four designs were very different. So when we were able to show them design A is going to likely cost you X every single year between your operating costs and your life cycle, right down to D, they went, whoa, why is this such a significant difference? know, depths of pools, lengths of pools, you know, they're all

different costs to be able to manage and operate. So we were able to work with them on obviously the ideal design that we actually know comfortably they can afford year on year because we've done the extensive calculations. So we're not the type of consultants that go in and do the high level assumptions. We hate seeing old feasibilities when we're brought into, I guess, helper site that's been running for five years and it's making significant losses.

David (27:19.084)
Michelle (27:24.492)
We ask for the previous literature. We look at the initial feasibility and we say, your first problem was the center was never going to operate at this because they've gone, similar to the story I said before, they said you need one lifeguard, but you wouldn't put all these beautiful water features in the middle and now we need four. you have a lot of them love the old history pools. like an old toddler pool might be 0.4 meter depth pool.

Brooke Atkins (27:43.842)
Mm-hmm.

David (27:48.597)
Yeah.

Michelle (27:52.834)
But the community loved it 20, 30 years ago and the community have said they want it to stay. But that's great, but you need a lifeguard that pool and that comes at a cost. You need to maintain that. So these are just the things that aren't pointed out from the beginning. And if you get those things right, you don't have these centers opening in five or 10 years later. They almost become a white elephant that the communities can't afford.

Brooke Atkins (28:17.41)
Hmm.

David (28:18.442)
Well

I think that's, I'm going to go down sort of a little rabbit hole possibly on this. There's been reports out and you will be at the forefront of this, I'm sure, but there's something like $35 billion worth of spending that needs to be done to maintain existing public facility aquatic center pools. It's something in that region. What's the answer there? Is it that investment or it's not just the investment, it's all the things you're talking about.

Are some of these worth just binning and starting again? it get to that point? What do you do there with these aging facilities from post-World War II?

Brooke Atkins (29:01.695)
I think a lot of the engineers will tell you that if it's not functioning and know this concrete cancer and all those issues then it is almost like a start again. I think just on that it's honestly every case is going to be different on funding availability to redevelop into something a little bit smaller and achievable. Again we've seen a lot of tenders and work we're engaged for that talk about alternative uses like filling it in and creating multi-purpose courts which

again, I think is going to be a reality for a lot of these facilities that will not find that sort of funding, particularly in regional areas when they have other things that they need to divert funding to. Having been in council and understand there are conflicting needs that they need to manage. I think again, it's why we're in this industry, it comes back to prevention over cure. We actually have to try and get these right from the start and ensure that they're meeting the community needs and you're getting the right people around the table from the start because the retrospective piece in finding the money later,

Luke Daly (29:42.309)
Yeah.

Brooke Atkins (30:01.166)
I think the reality will be a lot of these facilities turning to an alternative use, unfortunately.

Luke Daly (30:06.224)
That's really disappointing to hear, but not really surprising at the same time. was reading one of the council, I suppose, operating budget forecasts and around the investment in the construction component, but then also the ongoing maintenance piece. And yeah, this, I was, it shocked me to the point I was on the phone to David talking about it. And he goes, are you sure you've read that? Right? There's not a decimal in the wrong place or a comma in the wrong spot. I'm like, no, no, like I can, I can read numbers.

Brooke Atkins (30:10.113)
Mm.

David (30:22.493)
you

Brooke Atkins (30:30.146)
Yeah.

Brooke Atkins (30:35.336)
Yeah

Luke Daly (30:35.818)
So, but it's just, hard to see. And a big thing for me, I grew up swimming, so Queensland up through and through, but our school pools, you'd call them, I guess I call them PNC run or state schools all of them came into kind of fruition in the seventies and the eighties. They're starting to break down or they don't have as much use coming through because school swimming is not as prevalent and the swimming clubs from a community perspective.

Beyond that, the sport of swimming, I think is in decline, which is very sad to see as well, but they're just not getting maintained or they cost money to maintain and they just become a burden. And unfortunately, Brooke, I think the trajectory that we're on is leaning that way, which one of the ways to save it, I would assume is to increase the uptake and the, and the use of our facilities. What's, have you guys got a silver bullet or a magic trick to, how do we get more people using these places?

Brooke Atkins (31:23.074)
Mm.

Michelle (31:33.39)
Yeah, we've got a few tricks up our sleeve and often we are engaged for this line of work, which we really love. Of course, we'd love to see it right from the beginning. So we probably don't need to get re-engaged to save them down the track, but for the ones that need, I guess, some turnaround in their bottom line. I think, again,

It sounds high level, but it's quite simple. And we always say to particularly operators of, as we said, ageing 50 metre pools, you can do a lot of things that don't require a huge budget to increase your participation. And it's a lot about responding to the community's needs. So not just thinking, you know, yourself as a memorial pool, and that's all you are. You've got amazing spaces within that facility that can cater.

David (32:15.086)
you

Michelle (32:23.051)
families and all age and demographical. like a few examples is when we go into a community we do a lot of research on what their needs are. We actually talk to them so we go in and we find out what their needs are. We do a lot of connecting with local health networks which is obviously a piece that gets missed. So you know this one community where we are doing in regional Victoria, really cool project, you know we spoke to their health department and they said you know there's a few

areas, there's not a lot of facilities in our little tiny community, but one of the big trends that we're seeing was a lot of children with sensory needs, for instance. you know, loud noises and busy environments were almost attracted to get them participating in programs. So it was actually a really simple one. We just spoke with the manager and we said, look, let's identify a quiet time.

David (32:52.282)
you

David (33:13.304)
you

Michelle (33:18.402)
where your pool is quiet, which to be honest was quite easy. Being a regional community, was a lot of downtime. All we simply did, it didn't cost a thing. We already had the lifeguards there. We weren't putting in any programming. We simply chose an hour. We called it quiet hour. We turned off the water features and we advertised to all of our patrons and community that it was sort of the silent hour. So if you were coming to the pool during that time, you weren't to make any loud noises. But what that meant is it was a welcome space.

Luke Daly (33:21.55)
Yeah.

Luke Daly (33:42.222)
Brian.

Michelle (33:48.022)
It was an absolute welcome space for those with sensory needs. Really similar to in the same community, they had a huge need for, it was an aging population, large, old population. So a lot osteoporosis, a lot recovering from what may be knee reconstructions and things like that. Whereas we know aqua aerobics is absolutely perfect. It's a great one to respond. So they were already running aqua aerobics. So all we needed to do was literally

David (34:10.477)
you

you

Michelle (34:18.094)
advertised through the health network and the hospital network. So those that had just been recently diagnosed were handed a brochure for the local memorial pool with the times of the aqua aerobics and explained that this is a great prevention and rehab. It was really simple. Obviously there's some larger ticket ones that we do for your larger facilities. So we can really go right through and go, wow, you have...

Luke Daly (34:30.283)
So simple promotion at the end of the day.

Michelle (34:43.934)
X amount of, you know, zero to 14 year olds and you're not running any programs to meet their needs. So what programs can we put in place? What can we bring in or how can we just attract them to the facility, even if you can't put on a program. So there's just so, so many different examples where you can do that. And often our pool staff are focusing on the plant room and the water quality and then not.

Luke Daly (34:48.769)
Yep. What can we bring in?

David (34:56.503)
Very good.

Michelle (35:10.19)
actually focusing on the other half, which is driving the community into the field. That's where the gap is. And if we can come in and show them that gap and how to fill that gap, the results just really start to turn around. Plus we find a whole bunch of cool stuff in the plant room and around sustainability and a whole bunch of wayward practices that can save a whole lot of utilities and whatnot.

Luke Daly (35:13.485)
Yeah, that's right. Driving the inbound and focus on that component.

Michelle (35:36.748)
That's just a whole other topic for another day, but there is so much to discover. Yes.

David (35:38.932)
Yeah, I think it is. Yeah. I'd love to explore some of that with you in another conversation around those plant room efficiencies and where you see the trends going. I just want to circle back to another topic that we've run on the podcast that I feel like you were dancing around, which is the aqua aerobics and our challenges and some of the

Luke Daly (35:42.839)
Yeah, it definitely is.

Brooke Atkins (36:00.962)
you

Luke Daly (36:01.184)
here we go.

David (36:06.238)
Look, the situations that are arising right around the country with, look, we've got to call it out, the Aqua Ladies. And helping them feel like that they've got some control over their space and what they need. You've got tips and tricks for facility managers around the Aqua Ladies space.

Luke Daly (36:08.205)
No, I.

Brooke Atkins (36:10.046)
Hmm.

Brooke Atkins (36:14.174)
Yeah.

Luke Daly (36:24.205)
Karens.

Brooke Atkins (36:26.86)
Karen's.

Michelle (36:27.362)
First of all, have a coffee or a tea and some scones with the Aqua Ladies that is going to get them to open their door. That, yeah, I love the-

David (36:33.299)
Very good. Yeah. I love scones and coffee. mean...

Luke Daly (36:34.221)
Damnit, that's what we're gonna do.

Brooke Atkins (36:36.348)
Yeah

Mmm.

Michelle (36:40.49)
One of my favorite parts of being a center manager was the Aqua Ladies and some people don't believe me when I say this, but they give very constructive feedback about how you can improve your facility. They're very forthcoming. feedback is a gift and they're always happy to offer you that. And I think the biggest part for Aqua Ladies

Luke Daly (36:45.803)
I don't.

David (36:46.549)
I don't either.

Brooke Atkins (36:47.233)
Yeah.

Michelle (37:03.518)
and gentlemen because it is a very inclusive environment, aqua aerobic, so everybody is welcome, but is the social aspect to it. So in all of our facilities, we always had a social part post-aqua, which I think most facilities do. And that's your moment. That's where you get in and you make time for those aqua ladies. And, you know, you really listen to them and look, if they're upset because...

David (37:21.406)
Yeah.

Michelle (37:28.814)
you know, the water temperature, you you take the time to explain why we can't or can't or what we can and can't do. So, you're behind the decisions, you know.

David (37:36.211)
Okay.

Luke Daly (37:37.228)
Dave, we've made a faux pas. They do know. Dave, you know, we've made a faux pas here. We missed one thing off Michelle's resume, off her bio. She's actually president of the Aqualators Association globally. So we've picked the wrong fight here.

David (37:39.005)
Look, they know the mayor. Hey?

Michelle (37:42.638)
What's-

David (37:47.144)
Yeah.

Brooke Atkins (37:50.459)
Yeah

David (37:51.869)
Well, I think Michelle should consider potentially a career as well in diplomacy. It's incredible. Like turning.

Luke Daly (37:55.862)
Hahaha

The word selling there was phenomenal.

Michelle (38:00.206)
Yeah.

Brooke Atkins (38:03.958)
Yeah.

David (38:04.5)
No, no, no. How to turn bugs into features. And there is actually, that's a skill set on its own. And I actually take, I take, no, for all the silliness, we turn that into actually there's some good messages there. You know what does help? So let's just spin that around from the silliness to the seriousness in one sense. Conversations, dealing with conflict to have conversations and work those through has always got to be the first step. But still diplomacy, Michelle, well done.

Luke Daly (38:10.594)
That's a product line item for you guys.

Brooke Atkins (38:10.882)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Luke Daly (38:17.77)
engagement.

Brooke Atkins (38:25.058)
Mm.

Michelle (38:31.918)
you

Brooke Atkins (38:32.14)
Yeah.

Luke Daly (38:32.372)
Now, as we bring this to a close, because we do try and keep this to a drive time podcast, which Michelle, you identified as when you listened. So that's good feedback for the podcast where now we've, we, we'd have to drive from the Gold Coast to Brisbane in traffic at this point, because we have run out of time. want 30 seconds each, probably starting with you, Brooke of just 30 seconds. What's the one thing you think our industry should do better at?

Michelle (38:41.314)
Yes.

Michelle (38:47.502)
you

David (38:58.449)
question.

Brooke Atkins (38:59.948)
I think to be honest, we need to come together more and be one voice. I think that we've got a lot of voices throughout all the states that are doing really great work, but we don't necessarily come together and align those key messages to advocate for our industry. We're talking about funding.

David (39:12.625)
Hmm.

Brooke Atkins (39:15.628)
We're talking again about how funding is allocated, making sure that these sites meet community needs, which is again, why they're built in the first place. So I think I'd love to see it coming together of all these industry platforms to actually, you know, go to government, go to community and say, here's what we're about as a collective group, rather than separate groups, sort of working amongst each other in silos, trying to do the same thing like, you know, the mouse on the wheel. So that's what I'd love to see.

Luke Daly (39:44.264)
Unity. Very good. Couldn't agree more, Brooke. think that's, yeah, Dave and I will be on the same page. I'm sure Michelle is as well. Otherwise she wouldn't have been at the Arnauday. Now, Michelle, I, you'll get a prize here if you can stick to 30 seconds. because yeah, like Dave and I often get remarked as we've met, never met a microphone that we didn't like or never met a mic we didn't like. And I have a feeling you're the same as well. And Brooke, you are too, just for the record. So Michelle, 30 seconds, a prize if you get it.

Michelle (39:50.892)
Yeah. 100%.

David (39:50.971)
Yes. Yes.

Brooke Atkins (39:52.311)
Mm-hmm

Brooke Atkins (39:57.975)
Ha

Brooke Atkins (40:09.813)
you

Michelle (40:13.198)
All right, I'll keep it simple. We need to share our learnings and embrace the mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. We all do it. But if we don't share the learnings behind them, we can't improve as an industry.

David (40:25.71)
We're doomed to repeat history, Yep.

Brooke Atkins (40:27.925)
Well...

Luke Daly (40:28.026)
But also friggin well how's the prize now we're come up with a prize Dave so Six pack of cider

Michelle (40:28.671)
Is that 30?

Yeah.

Brooke Atkins (40:31.998)
As soon as you incentivize it for Michelle, she will do whatever you ask. Yes.

David (40:35.62)
Look, the irony Luke is that... Wow, look, so are Luke and I, and the irony is that Luke's introduction to keep you to 30 seconds was way longer than 30 seconds.

Michelle (40:38.67)
We're slightly competitive if you haven't noticed, so...

Brooke Atkins (40:48.866)
Yeah.

Luke Daly (40:49.067)
That is, that is the great irony and the perks of being the podcast host. So the, that's right. So as we do wind up here, because we do have to get into the work day here. How do we get in touch? How can we help? Cause we do have a lot of listeners from the council environment that lead a lot of these facilities that we talk about. How can they get in touch with you guys to talk to you guys and hopefully engage in making these spaces better.

Michelle (40:52.867)
you

Brooke Atkins (40:53.501)
Yeah

Michelle (41:16.238)
Yeah, well, hey, we love a chat if you haven't learned that, look, we can connect through the website, simply www.larcan.com.au that's got all our phone numbers on there. We are always happy to chat. even if you're unsure where to start or how to start, give us a buzz. I think a couple of ones from us is just engage the operator early. Obviously we're an independent, which is the gap we saw because we're not, you know, there's lots of management groups, but

We are the independent there. So, you know, get the operator in early and don't just focus on the construction and the design phase. Really focus on what the annual and life cycle costs will be. And then also look, if you do have a center that's not getting the results that you thought it would or you cannot afford.

also give us a call. I think we're just trying to the message out and architects, we love you guys too. Bring us on, talk to us because you know, we love a little bit of, you know, chit chat about different designs. And as I said, yeah, different ends. I missed anything?

Luke Daly (42:03.166)
Reach out.

Brooke Atkins (42:08.342)
Mm.

David (42:10.275)
Right.

David (42:15.086)
Very good.

Brooke Atkins (42:18.548)
No, I think you've covered it, mate. Well done.

Michelle (42:21.07)
You

Luke Daly (42:21.098)
Well done indeed. right, larcan.com.au is where we can find you guys. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day. This has been a very enjoyable conversation. Thank you for those who have listened to this discussion as well. I'm sure it'll be very interesting. Maybe it'll be the drive to and from work instead of just one direction this time. But thank you for listening to episode eight on Aquatics Only. AO, let's go.

David (42:21.102)
Yeah.

David (42:31.01)
Yes.

Brooke Atkins (42:39.042)
Yeah.

Michelle (42:39.088)
you

Michelle (42:46.05)
Thanks guys.

David (42:46.094)
Let's go.

Brooke Atkins (42:46.828)
Thanks guys.