Chickens Every Day
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Chickens Every Day
The Oracle of Poultry Nutrition Jeff Mattocks Pt. 1
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3 part series chatting with Jeff Mattocks, an international leader in poultry nutrition.
Meet Jeff Maddox And The Goal
SPEAKER_02A little bit over an hour and a half long with most of the informatics, and you are going to get a great amount of information from this. I know you guys are all types and get ready for that. But do you have to also agree to come back to the Go and do ALI? Probably will be on the external law backyard tickets. Or you will get the opportunity to ask the right thing there. I think answering your questions about filter alpha, filtering the trick. Filtering the food, how many technically anything that could possibly imagine be able to add another? I need to know so that we can see how many we are we're going to have in the audience if it's going to be actually worth it. If we get four or five people and happy to add the quick and technology to everybody to do this, you can let me know here. You can send me an email at everyday. I'll want to work tickets everyday at yahoo.com. Let me know what you think about it. I will let you guys know a good month in advance. And a little reminder as we get closer and closer when the live broadcast is going to be so you can prepare yourself. I'll give you a time, date, all that kind of good stuff. So without further ado, here comes the interview with Jeff Maddox. Thanks.
SPEAKER_01There we go. Recording in progress.
SPEAKER_02Hey guys, Gary Valerie with SinLive Backyard Chickens and the Chickens Everyday Podcast. And here in central Louisiana, it is spring has sprung, and that means chick season. And that means people are thinking about having chicks for the very first time. And that's what today's show is about. This is going to be the leadership show. You might even say a sort of a slight masterclass on how to get started with chickens. And it's not me. We have got the consummate expert with us here today, Mr. Jeff Maddox. And if you haven't heard uh of Jeff before, shame on you. You haven't been in the chicken world long enough. Jeff is the go-to guy. He is the uh, well, he doesn't like to be called president. He would more like to be called the lead nutritionist at the Fruit Trail Company. And they don't just do chickens, they do all sorts of livestock, if I'm not correct. But let me just give you a little bit of Jeff's background. He's internationally known for his knowledge, and I'm reading a little of this that you can see. And as an as an animal nutrition specialist, I'll read a quote from the American Pastory Poultry Association on Jeff's Lifetime Achievement Award. Quote, Jeff has dedicated decades to helping farmers succeed. His deep knowledge, hands-on experience, and willingness to generously share his time and expertise have made a lasting impact on our community. Jeff's contributions go beyond formulating feed. He is a mentor, problem solver, and advocate for better poultry nutrition. We are proud to recognize him with the 2025 American Pastured Poultry Producers Association Lifetime Achievement Award. And this is a well-deserved award. If you start listening to this guy, he's going to tell you how it is. Now, I'm going to give you a disclaimer right up front. If you want it straight from the horse's mouth, if you want it with no sugar coating attached to it, just the way it is, this is the show for you. If you want someone to tell you, oh, well, maybe that'll work, maybe that won't, whatever works best for you. Maybe you want to think about looking at something else. But no, all jokes aside, Jeff, thank you so much. Welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01Hey, thanks for inviting me on. I appreciate it.
Picking Breeds Based On Purpose
SPEAKER_02Well, you are so welcome. The gear here today, I know we're going to talk to a lot of chicken people who are experienced to semi-experienced, and I know they're going to get a lot out of it. But I would like to talk to those people who are buying chicks right now. I have a cousin over in Bider, Texas, who just bought some chicks and just then started raising them. And she's doing like everybody you see. She's going banana. She's just in love with these young birds. But she's like, What am I to do? Now my pen's not big enough. She wants bigger pen. She wants more chickens, and they're not even six weeks old yet. So let's start out with, well, what chickens do I want? If I'm just getting into this, what do I want?
SPEAKER_01That's exactly right. You know, so do you want to be a breeder? Do you just want to have you know a lot of people are happy to go to Tractor Supply or Rural King or wherever? Right. I I know, I know, I know. But, you know, we all started there, right? Like my my first batch of chickens for my backyard came from Murray McMurray, okay, out of Iowa. And I got the mixed 25, right? So I got I I didn't know what I wanted. So I got five barred rocks, I got five Aricanas, I got five black Australorps, I got five Brahmas, I got, you know, so I I mixed and matched and got five of a little bit of everything just to see what I was gonna like the most. Okay. Now look, I live on an acre, so having 25 chickens isn't a problem. I, you know, we had ours in a movable coop. So I built, you know, with a with the cattle panels, I built uh a movable structure with a two by four frame, and then I got the electric netting from Premier One and I used that, so I surrounded them with electric netting. Look, the electric netting is not to keep the birds in, it's to keep everything else out.
SPEAKER_02Okay, exactly.
SPEAKER_01So I I you know, and once a week, you know, I'd move the netting, you know, I'd change the position of the netting and keep them moving in my yard. Um, you know, you know, so it was my observation group, right? I got to see different characteristics of the different breeds. Um, you know, while my daughter fell in love with the Brahmas, you know, I was more of the black ostrolar person, right? So I like the black Australorps. Even though they were still hatchery chicks, okay, they weren't true to the breed according to the standard. You still got to see characteristics of them, right? Yeah. So yeah. That's just, yeah, that's kind of how we started out. Um, and you know, it was for eggs. It was really to kind of teach my daughter economics and responsibility, you know, where she had to go feed chickens every day. She had to take care of them, gather the eggs, wash the eggs, sell them all to my grandma, or sell them all to her grandmother, right? Um, but yeah, so you know, it's just life experiences. So, so you know, it's exactly right. What do people want? You know, are they just looking for yard ornaments, something to hold and cuddle? Because I'd tell you that like uh your buff orping tons and your brahmas are a little bit more the cuddly chicken.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I have those too.
SPEAKER_01Um, versus, you know, your Americanas are not necessarily a cuddly chicken. Your Australop is borderline, right? It it sits on the fence as to how much it wants to sit on your lap and be held. So you just have to find what's you know, what what are you after, right? Um, most people, you know, they want the eggs and they want the entertainment. So um I, you know, I would say start with a mixture and see what you get along with the best, right?
SPEAKER_02Well that's I I'm at the point, yeah. We have an honesty egg stand out here, and people just drive up and they get eggs out of the egg stand and hopefully baby a little bit. So I try to do that rainbow of eggs. So I've got Easter agers, olive agres, I've got bronze out there. Uh my olive agar, I've finally got one that actually is viable, but right now she's still spitting out the little fairy eggs for us. I've even got three leg horns because I want to get some volume out. I'm amazed at those leg horn chickens. It's the first time I've ever had leg horns. I remember them as a boy, but I I don't really remember much after that. They are just producing keens. They're little chicken, and they're flighty. I know they're flighty, but I played I paid a lot of attention to them when they were young, so they're not so bad with me. They'll still come up to me, but my goodness, they're gonna put out some eggs. They are they are factories, is what they are, which is which is why they're the most popular egg producer, you know, in the country.
SPEAKER_01They are. They they just lay predominantly, and that's the truth. And you know, you're gonna get an egg out of them six out of every seven days, right? And a good sized egg, too. And they're gonna do that for a year. I mean, they'll they'll do that easily for a year. So it just depends on what you're after. So are you after utility or are you after pretty, right? You're not gonna get both in the same package, okay? So you just just know that.
SPEAKER_02And well, you can for that first year, like you said. Uh all those points when they first start laying that first year, they're amazing.
SPEAKER_01But you're not gonna cuddle a leg horn, right? They're not necessarily they they are they are so bred and so high strung for production that they just don't make a good companion chicken, right? Yeah, yeah, and that's where your silkies come in. You know, a lot of people love the silkies, they're really good. Look, I got I got clients that have silkies in the house, right? They got a nest box on their computer desk and the silky sits there all day while they do their work, right? This is real. Wow, oh I don't I I I got the pictures and the videos to prove it, right? So um I'm personally not gonna have a chicken living in my house, but you know, hey, to each their own.
Coop Design And Rotational Yard
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we've had them walk in here before, but they don't get to stay, you know. Uh I I've seen what chickens do, you know, in the yard, and I don't want certainly don't want them doing that in the house. So next, I guess we need to think about if you're gonna build a coop. Okay, and and we've all heard that term chicken mass. And and and if you don't know what we're talking about, if you think you want six chickens, build a coop with 12 at least, you know.
SPEAKER_01At least.
SPEAKER_02But but what what are the properties of a good coop that a person needs to think about?
SPEAKER_01I mean, so for me, like I said, I wanted something movable. Okay, so you know, I had a smaller house with the nest box and everything in it. Um, and I can move it that way. I'm keeping them on fresh grass every day. But so what you have to think about is you you should have at least 10 square feet per bird in a run area, right? So, you know, open area grass, um contact to the ground. Okay, so they need they need at least 10 square feet per bird. Um, if you're gonna set up a coop, why don't you set it up in a way that they can have like all four sides of the central, you know, uh hen house, you know, where they're gonna lay their egg and roost at night, why don't you set it up so you can rotate between four yards all the way around it instead of being trapped in one particular, you know, uh ground space. You know, when you do that, I mean you're gonna get a buildup of bacteria, pathogens, parasites, things like that. Right. So you just you know, to keep it kind of clean, if you will, um, you know, if you don't want to be worming them all the time, you don't want to be worried about, you know, sickness and death and things like that, you know, it's gonna make you more of a manager. Whereas if I could have a rotational yard, you know, giving it time to heal, come back, grow something, and move it, um, you know, that's gonna be a lot healthier for the chicken, a lot healthier for the ground, right? And a lot less stress on you and the chicken. So just something to think about.
Free Roam Safety And Shade Needs
SPEAKER_02The way my personal setup is uh my my coop is a permanent structure. You know, it's not movable. And my my run is eight foot by 40 foot. But they're never there. Every morning, my automatic coop doors open, and I mean we too have an acre out here, and they're out in the yard. Every single day they're out in the yard. The only time they go back to the coop is if they want to hang out in the dust bath for a while or they want to go lay an egg or the weather comes in, then they'll go in there to get out of the weather. But they spend their days away from the coop out in the yard, and I do that, you know, for a twofold reason, maybe even three. I love watching them out there because the antics that chickens can do are are are legendary sometimes. But it's also it keeps my coop cleaner, it keeps my run so much cleaner because they're not in there, you know. And I go in there and and and most of the time, you know, it's fresh smelling, you don't smell the coop and pneumonia because they're not out there building it up. And when they're out in the yard, they get to do chicken, is is the way I call it. They they get to do bugs and what have you and and enjoy doing the chicken thing, and then I supplement with a good quality feed. Hopefully, that will serve me for some time. I've had this particular setup, I think, going on five years now, and so far it's working pretty good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it should, you know, I I mean, chickens should be able to free roam around your property, right? I mean, that's ideally what you want them to do. Um, we tend to confine them to a space that we're comfortable with, you know, uh, to make our life easier. Or, you know, we worry about hawks and owls and neighbors' dogs and other predators, you know, and I don't know if you have an issue with that there where you are or not.
SPEAKER_02But it every great once in a while. Uh, we don't have a ground predator issue, uh, but we do have uh uh birds of prey here. We have we have bald eagles. We we're through the woods, we're about a mile from a big lake, and there are bald eagles. There are two nests there now, and you can actually look up Kasatchy National Forest webcam and you can watch the eagles uh raise raise their younger. I've never had an eagle come over here, but every year, year and a half, uh I I end up losing a bird uh to a uh to a halt. And I understand that, I hate that, but I have made that decision because I think my chickens are overall happier and healthier to get to Rome that way. And I just try to do things to help mitigate it. Uh, I put a couple of these, you've seen the attractor supply, these windmills that spins spin a lot. I put a couple of those out in my yard. Haven't seen a bird of prey since then. I don't know if they're really working, but according to the internet, you know, that knows everything. Yeah, uh, this is one of the ways that you can kind of deter those things from coming around, having something moving and spinning on the yard. Also planted 13 more fruit trees back there. So that's going to give them less room to maneuver. So I'm I'm trying to do what I can and still let my birds hang out in the yard.
SPEAKER_01Yep. No, that's a good plan. And and people don't understand that birds are not necessarily sun worshippers. So if you pay attention to their behavior, right, um, they are jungle fowl. So their preferred life would be under a bunch of trees. So, you know, the more that you can give them shade, tree access, things like that. I see so many people put their put their chicken coop right in the middle of an open yard, right, where the sun just bakes them to death.
SPEAKER_02Very exposed.
SPEAKER_01That's not where they're gonna be happy, right? I mean, so again, I you know, my birds, I watched them. Um, you know, they were an observation group for me, right? So they give me a chance to learn a lot more about chickens and what they were what they liked. Hey, every day from 10 to 2, 10 a.m. to 2 p.m., they're under the shade somewhere. Okay. They're not coming out from that shade. If they do, it's for a very short period of time, right? And then they go right back again.
SPEAKER_02Or they're exactly the same way that they shade.
Feed Amounts And Sunset Feeding
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I, you know, I can't get folks to put their feed and their water access in the shade, right? Where do your chickens want to spend their time through the middle of the day? That's where I need to make sure they have access to good, cool water, you know, fresh feed, things like that. Um, you know, just make their life a little bit more comfortable.
SPEAKER_02So now I had a question that I wanted to ask you about my particular setup. Uh and and every day, you know, like I said, my my birds, uh the term now I used to say free range, but it's pasture range to be a little bit more uh politically correct from the way that they do it now. But uh they also freely get their their their their their feed. I I use layer pellets. Should I limit the amount of layer pellets that they have every day and get them to concentrate more on outside? Because let me tell you a lot of times they're just lazy as all heck. You know, they they'll eat, go out in the yard for a little while, and then they're under the shade tree all chilling and gossiping together. You know, so I'm I'm kind of not sure if I'm if I'm overdoing things by get letting them have just you know 24-7, this is where your feed is, and you can have all you want, or you can go outside and eat.
SPEAKER_01Well, honestly, you're better off if you control the amount of feed that you give every day. I was thinking that it it will add to the longevity of your bird. So look, if you're a person who wants to replace your chickens every two to three years, don't worry about it, right? But if you're if a person who is, let's say, gonna be a breeder, right, they want to hatch their own, they want to have families, they want to keep, you know, like they go spend the money for expensive breeding fowl, and they want to keep that hen and that rooster for seven or eight or ten years in in a production state, you know, where they're producing, then you're gonna limit your feed, right? And most feeds bought at the local feed store are set up for about three and a half to four ounces per bird per day, right? Is what you're looking for. So one pound for every four birds. Um you really do want them to clean that up in a short period of time. So another observation fact I had with with our flock was uh one day my light bulb in my head came on, and I looked out there and they had they had feed all day long, right? I was doing it wrong as well, just just so you know, right? I I learned I I learned a lot of bad habits that I had to fix. But at about one hour before sunset, the feeders were full, right? Every chicken was filling up before it went to the roost. Okay. So the heaviest or the primary feeding period for a chicken is that about one hour before sunset, not dark, sunset. Okay. I don't know about yours, but all of my chickens are on their spot in the roost just about at sunset. Give or take 10 minutes. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02I I've got I've got one bird that that she's in there an hour ahead of everybody.
SPEAKER_01I know.
SPEAKER_02She wants to get her spot.
SPEAKER_01That was my Americana, right? So my Americana because I was foolish and I had a tilted roost bar, you know, at different heights, and she wanted to make sure she was at the top before any other bird got there. Okay.
SPEAKER_02All of my roost bars are the same. They're the same height, but I have three different types of them. Uh I did, and because I didn't know at the time what was best. So I have a two before flat that they can use, I have a two before on edge that they can use, and I have scalloped lumber up there, but I also have two natural branches that are probably four inches or so around. They hang out on the natural branches as much as they do anything else. I think it's comfortable for them. They can hold on to the bark, got a good circular uh circumference to it, and it's they're wide enough that they can sit on it and just sleep all night.
Peat Moss Bedding And Field Trial
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean as long as as long as the size is right. Um, you know, so you you kind of want to think about about a two between a two and a two and a half inch diameter uh tree branch for most chickens. Now, bantams would want something a little bit smaller because they have a smaller foot. So, but I would say, you know, two to two and a half inches in diameter, you know, should be about the appropriate size. And for most large fowl, right? Most standard size standard breed fowl. Um I yeah, you know, and and having the bark on it, you know, pick a variety that, you know, the bark's not going to fall off, right? I prefer a little bit of a softer wood, you know. So if you grow live in a place where cedars. Grow or something like that. You know, that's what I would use. You know, cedar also is uh a natural insect repellent. So you're less likely to get mites and lice from those roost bars, you know, um, or staying in those roost bars. So, you know, pine, like your two by fours, they're still really good because pine oil also is a natural repellent to insects.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, my uh my my betting in the bottom of of the uh uh of the coop itself is pine shavings, and I incorporated something into my shavings that I heard you talk about. And and and that I don't think you said that necessarily to incorporate, I just thought it was a great idea. Uh idea, excuse me. But I I put some sorghum peat moss in there because of how how it absorbs ammonia. You talked about that because I know from listening to you, if I can smell the ammonia, it's already past the stage that it can actually hurt my bird. So I don't want that to happen. Plus, it absorbs moisture in there. Uh I've learned early on to be careful how much you put because it really gets things dry in there to the point that it's overly dry and it can be dusted. But I think it's I think it's a good idea to have it. Uh, you know, that the antibacterial properties of it. I mean, heck, they use this stuff in World War II to dress wounds on soldiers, you know. So it's some it's some pretty good stuff. Am I using it in a way that that that's good for my birds?
SPEAKER_01You are. Um, and you can use it. I mean, you can use it straight. There's no, but look, people are gonna try it and they're gonna complain about the dustiness of it, right? The bird doesn't really care. Um, you know, and I I I'd almost challenge you to so in your coop, right? Put um one half side, you know, one side as peat moss and one side of shavings, and the chickens will soon tell you what their preference is because they're gonna be dust bathing in it before you know it, right? And they just they love it. Yeah, yeah, they love it, right? We hate it because of its dustiness, and also it appears to be that much more cost-wise when you go to buy it than a pine shaving. But we did research um because I wanted to know, right? This is my own personal education. So we grew uh two groups of chicks, you know, here at Fortrell as a field trial. One side we did with pine shavings, one side we did with peat moss. So our observations were this every time we would go in to put in fresh bedding, the chicks on the pine shaving side would run away from it and become frantic, right? Like they were just scared to death of it. On the peat moss side, they ran towards the bale when you're dumping out the peat moss. Right. And then we don't break up the clumps, right? Leave them alone. Because we also noticed that two-week-old chicks were standing on top of the pile playing in King of the Mountain, right? Oh, yeah. Just like, come on, knock me off, right? Great interface. Um, and those those these are Cornish cross broiler chicks, right? Just about as dumb as they come. All right, they're already dust bathing at seven days old. Okay, they're already exhibiting that chickenness um at that early age. So at the end of the trial, it took five and a half bales of pine pine shavings to manage the moisture and the ammonia smell. It only took one bale of peat moss in the exact same space, right? Both brooders were eight foot by eight foot. Um, you know, they each had 25 chicks in each side, right? And you know, we just managed them exact same feed, exact same airspace, exact same everything. Side by side.
SPEAKER_02It ended up being cost effective.
SPEAKER_01It ended up being cost effective. Then when you remove it, right, now you have something that's really nice to go to your flower bed or your garden or your potted plants or whatever.
SPEAKER_02We do compost over here, but you know, the pine shavings that they take six, eight months, you know, to break down. And that's only if you get the proper amount of rain and you keep them mixed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I mean you can take peat moss straight from the chicken coop and put it in the garden, but it's already broken down.
SPEAKER_01It's ready to go. You don't need to come.
SPEAKER_02Okay, it came from me.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, but you know, here you heard it here.
Roosters For Eggs And Flock Safety
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you heard it here. Now, I know I have to have a chick have to have a rooster so I can get eggs. Is that correct? This is something I hear every year, and it it amazes me that people say this. So, do we need a rooster? Do you want a rooster? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01If you're going to breed, right, and you want hens to hatch or you want to hatch eggs, yeah, you gotta have a rooster. But you do not have to have a rooster in order for hens to lay eggs. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Alex, go ahead. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01I I I will say that keeping, if you're allowed to, keeping a rooster with your flock, his job is to guard the flock. So he's constantly looking for hawks, owls, predators. Okay, that's kind of his job as a being a flock protector. Um, but they also can be a royal pain in the butt. Okay.
SPEAKER_02You know, that they they can. I have tried, I have young grandchildren, and right about the time the uh second the youngest was born, I I had a black rooster. He was a barnyard mix. He didn't care who showed up out there. He just walked by and say hi. You know, he might stand close enough if he had a treat. But he he was he was just he was friendly, he was gentle, and he talked to his girls and he did all the things that you would you would hope that a rooster would do. Well, after he was gone, I kept trying to get roosters again, and inevitably they're just little assholes, you know. And I can't have that with my grandkids when they're that little. If a child gets scared by a rooster at a young age, they're never gonna like chicken. You know, they're gonna grow up not liking chicken. So you want to be careful about that. So until they get some age on them, I'm back at the point again that I don't keep rooster.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Yeah, uh, you know, so I would try a buff orpington, I would try an orpington rooster.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's that's always supposed to be a great breed, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right. And, you know, um a friend and I took turns brooding our backyard chickens, right? So I got my uh 25 ostrollarps, black ostrolarps from him one year, bring them home, right? Near my replacement flock, and and he threw in a rooster, right? And I knew he was there, right? It wasn't a surprise. And this rooster, you know, here's my 10-year-old daughter out there trying to manage these chickens, and this rooster was trying to flog her, right? Well, he didn't live at my house, right? He uh he died really quickly of lead poisoning, yeah. Yeah, and that was the end of that. So we just don't tolerate bad behavior, right? And um, but you know, that was but the Australorp was doing his job, he was protecting his flock, so I can't blame him for that, but and because he didn't grow up uh on our place, he didn't know you know the people and all. Yeah, right. Yeah, so I think if you raise that rooster, you're gonna be further ahead. Um, you know, as far as how docile they're gonna be. But definitely some breeds are way more docile than others, right? So you just need to do your research and ask the questions.
Part One Wrap Up
SPEAKER_02And well, I'm I'm gonna hatch a batch toward the fall. Uh I like to do fall chicks, you know, and and and have them ready for come spring. And out of that, you know, we all know 50% is gonna be roosters. So I'm gonna try to pick one or two boys out of that group, raise them up, and then find the one that's going to be, you know, the gentle gentleman out of out of there, and and just see how it goes. I I love having one. They're beautiful. If you ever watch how they communicate with their hens, they find food for them and they call them to it. They're the ones that are looking up for aerial predators. A good rooster will will give his life to protect his flock. And I love watching these videos on YouTube when you see a rooster kicking a bird, but you know, they they can seriously uh uh do this. In part one.
SPEAKER_00That's all we have to have for today. I really hope you enjoyed listening to the podcast. Be free to watch our videos on behalf of my couple of years and
