Author Interview | Bethanie Finger

Welcome wonderful listeners to Episode 17 of the Shadow and Starlight Podcast with special guest Bethanie Finger, author of the More Than Life Trilogy! Join us as we get to know the creator of this series and learn more about her historical romantasy. In spring 2025, Bethanie is also releasing a duology called More Than Dreams, which will definitely on our TBR! Caution - spoilers in the last section (where we give our thoughts on the book/characters).

• bethaniefingerauthor.com 
• Amazon Link: https://www.amazon.com/More-Than-Life-Historical-Fantasy/dp/1957548525
• Intro Music by Boomer, graphics by @reeseplantedesign. 
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• Email: shadowandstarlightpod@gmail.com

Transcript

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Welcome. Wonderful listeners to the shadow and starlight podcast, where two friends deep dive into popular fantasy and romanticy books. We get into the stories, characters, world building, lore, and much more. So buckle your seatbelts for this wild rollercoaster ride of emotions, magical worlds, and laughs. I'm Kinsey. I'm Kena. And today we're doing our very first official author interview with Bethany Finger, creator of The More Than life trilogy, A Historical Romanticy. And both of us just finished this book, the first book in the series. So that's what we're going to talk about today. Yes. So welcome, Bethany. We're so happy you're here. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be the first. That's always special. We're so honored. And we really loved your book. So, listeners, just a little peek at the agenda. We're going to get to know Bethany, learn a little bit more about her, and then we'll really get into the specifics in the background of her book and give you some thoughts of ours on what we thought of your book. And then another segment that we do on the podcast is a drink of the pod at the end of our intro. So, I don't know if you're sipping on anything. I'm just drinking water today, which is boring. Some iced coffee. Very fancy. Very nice. Very nice. Are you in? Nice. Are you in Pali? I am in Las Vegas. Okay. Gotcha. Because I know you're in Pacific time and we're in three different time zones because Mackenzie lives in Tennessee and I live in Georgia. We lived in Mississippi for four years. Four years before coming to Las Vegas, and I desperately miss the weather because I swear when we lived in Mississippi, it rained like At least a little bit every day. There was always water and moisture and then Las Vegas is like the exact opposite. I miss water so much. Oh my gosh, I bet. A lot of readers and those types of people like rain because it makes reading so cozy. Yeah, same. Yeah. Well, it's just so dry here, you know, and then I've got curly hair, so it's terrible for my hair. Yeah, one of my friends grew up in Las Vegas and they just recently moved to South Carolina and they were saying how much more they like it here. And her hair is curly too. She's just like, this is like the humidity styles it for you out there. Exactly. Yeah. I'm so fun. Mississippi is like the next door to me. I'm in Memphis. And so like, it's like, we were down in the, we were in Biloxi down on the Gulf coast and it was gorgeous there. So pretty. Uh, and we did not appreciate it enough while we were there, should have gone to the beach every single day. Yeah. That's the closest beach to us. So we used to go all the time. All right. Well, we'll jump in. Get to know you, Bethany. So I'll put you on the spot a little bit. If you want to tell us a little bit about you, your background and your hobbies, just anything you feel like is relevant for the listeners to know if they're thinking about reading your book. So this is the fun part because I immediately forget everything about myself. So me, I, I have a master's in library sciences and a master's in creative writing. I have worked in libraries, bookstores. I currently work as a fourth grade teacher. I have two podcasts, one about the Lunar Chronicles and one about Rapunzel. This is my debut trilogy. It came out last February, which is hard to believe is almost a year ago. And hobbies. What do I do for fun? I like to crochet. I like to play video games. I like PC games. Play that with my husband a lot. Uh, writing. Is that a hobby? Yeah. Reading. Is that a hobby? That's what I do. Obviously. Um, yeah. I figured that would be one of your hobbies. Right? Well, even gaming. we'll listen to audio books while we game. Oh my gosh, I love that. I'm curious, what games do you play? Because I am also a big gamer. Right now, I am obsessed with Valheim and Grounded, which are two PC games on Steam. I love the, survival aspect of games, and Valheim is perfect when you're writing, historical fantasy, because I feel like you get in that whimsical vibe, and they have all this delicious music and thematic sounds in the background, and then Grounded is kind of like if Honey, I Shrunk the Kids was a video game. So you're like this big and you get stuck in the backyard and you have to kill all the bugs and find out how to be big again. Um, so not anything to do with my books, but still fun to play. That was very fun. I actually just bought Valheim when it was on sale a few weeks ago. I haven't played it yet, but I play PC games with my brother. All the time. I love Valheim. Yes. Discord and we will play together because I love Valheim. I'm so down. Yes. I got a. Gaming PC for my brother for my birthday a couple of months ago. And I've been going crazy. I'm like all the PC games and everything. So yeah, I never used to be, I never used to be a gamer and then the pandemic happened and my husband and I were, you know, at home all the time, like everybody else, and he was finally like, all right, I'll read those books. You like so much if you play a video game with me and I was like, okay. so he listened to the audiobooks for the Lunar Chronicles and I played Valheim and it is one of my favorite activities now. So go figure. Yay. Well, thank you, pandemic. One of the good things. Had to be something out of that. Yes. That's so cool. I'm curious, when did you first get into writing or know you wanted to be an author? So I've been writing ever since I can remember, even as a kid, I would write like poetry and songs and short stories. And I was 13 when I wrote my very first book, which, turned out to be like a babysitter's fan fiction. But I didn't realize that when I was 13, I'm really old. People didn't really talk about fan fiction in the early 2000s, right. And then when I was in my freshman year of college. I wrote a short story for one of these creative writing classes I was taking in my Professor helped me get it published in the Chicago Sun Times. I got a tiny little check of like 18. Uh, and that was the first time I was like, I could do this as a job if I really wanted to. cut to 16 years later when I finally actually published something. That's awesome. So I know you said that you read a lot as a hobby as well. What are some of your favorite authors and books that you read currently? Love Marissa Meyer, Heather Schneider. She's a big one. Meg Cabot. It's an instant classic if it's by Meg Cabot. Kay and Shay, Annie Sullivan, Kristen Tazin. I'm just naming people I've read recently. I loved Love Hypothesis. So I kind of thought Allie Hazelwood was going to be like my next big author crush, but I've noticed a lot of it is formulaic at this point. And so I'm kind of, kind of the roller coaster downward, but I still loved, Love Hypothesis and I loved, Stuck on you has one of the most romantic lines I've ever read in my entire life. And I'm probably forgetting a million other authors, but that's, who's coming to mind right now. It's okay. That's also whenever someone asks me, I'm like, I, I don't know. Like whoever comes to mind, that must be who I like. Yes. Do you like to read mostly romance or mostly fantasy or just, I kind of flip flop all over the place, you know, for a while there I was obsessed with dystopia and then I was like, I have to read everything fairytale retelling. In the last, I would say two to five years, I've gotten really into romance and fantasy, which is why I really like the romanticy genre. And getting to explore that. I like to think that the romanticism genre is for all the people, my age, who read Twilight and stuff in high school, but now we're like adults and we want more, but we realized that there were some, um, tender, scary things in the Twilight stuff that we want to avoid now. So it's like, all right, how can we be not toxic? Yes. I grew up reading hunger games and the maze runner and Twilight, and now I'm obsessed with romantic, so it is very true. it's like a trajectory for us. Very. Yes, very much Read Romance for the romance, pretty much. Yes. yes. I'm a big, I'm a big romance person. Yes. Kenzie's like, me too. Me too. Ultimate Romance girl. And I'll, all I read is fantasy I, that's why I love romantic so much because I love both genres and I love mm-hmm I love, love, It's weird. I never used to care that much if there was romance in a book. And for whatever reason, the last like six or seven years, I've been like, man, this is so boring. Why haven't they kissed yet? I love that. I feel like romanticy was what really got me into fantasy. I didn't read a lot of fantasy books or even like growing up, I didn't read any dystopian books. Like I knew about them. I knew about the movies and I'm going to read them eventually. But, um, Um, I didn't read any fantasy and I didn't start reading fantasy as an adult until romanticity became a thing. I feel like I'm the opposite. I was all about fantasy and then I read a couple of romanticity books and was like, this is such a cool sub genre and went down the rabbit hole. I can't believe I forgot her name. Jennifer cross. I think Jenna cross. I'll look it up. but she wrote, this like supernatural, I don't know, romance series, I guess. There's eight sisters and each of them have their own story where they fall in love. But it got me on this hook where I was like, we can have fantasy and romance. And so then I started on the pattern of like, what other romance books are there out there? Yes, it's the best of both worlds. Truly. That's most of what we cover on our podcast. The deep dives we do is mostly romance books. Cause there's just so good. Oh, then I'm a good author to be on here. All right. Well, let's dig into more than life. So we only had time to read the first one, but. I'm planning on refinishing the rest of it, especially after that cliffhanger. Let's dig into this. So for our listeners, I have not read or heard of this trilogy, the little bit of a preview. It is a historical fantasy with multiple paths, other tropes, including friends to lovers, found family, myth and legends, surprise ending and hope after tragedy. Is there anything Bethany you wanted to add to that? Or did I pretty much cover it? Just a good slow burn. Yes. We love a slow burn. Very slow burn. Yeah, right off the bat, I was in the feels as someone, I just have a really close relationship with my dad and Kenzie really does too. So I was like immediately interested in the feels that you dedicated this to Your dad and then of course, Cordelia's dad, what happens to him? I was like, Oh, I was immediately pulled in just by that. And I wanted to ask, what was the turtle club with your dad? Oh, dedication or something. There is a totally enough for the turtle club. There's an old Dana Carvey movie called Master of Disguise. And we watched it with my dad a lot when we were kids. And for some reason it became this inside joke of like, There's a scene in the film where he wants to go to this turtle club, which turns out as like a underground club for like lords and stuff in, in the UK, but he saw that it was a turtle club. And so he dressed as a turtle. And when he got there, they wouldn't let him in. And he was like, am I not turtley enough for the turtle club? and so it became this huge inside joke with my sisters and my dad. So when I was trying to think of the dedication, I was reading through everything and going over the dedication and I was like, this is so tragic. Like I need to add like, my dad would laugh at this so much because it's so incredibly dramatic and tragic. I want to add something funny to the tail end of it. So that was my way of like, having just like that inside joke between me and him. Very cool. So your dad loves sailing. Is that kind of what inspired that part of this book? Yes, absolutely. Nice. do you like to sail too? I do. I do. I don't get to in Las Vegas, but I love sailing with my dad. It was always really fun to be out on the open water and to just kind of look around and see that you have nothing and everything just surrounding you, you know, and I think there's something deeply, adventure seeking about that situation. And when you're in that moment. Yeah, definitely. That's really cool. I love that you have a personal connection to the setting of the book. That's awesome Yeah, I feel like from just the first chapter. I felt that connection Not only between the main character and her father and how sad she was after his death But once I realized that you dedicated to your father I kind of felt that connection between you guys who we could tell that y'all had a really strong bond So you could definitely feel those emotions from the first chapter for sure Yeah The first chapter has the least amount of editing. So I honestly I wrote it and then I read over it once after my editor sent it back to me and then I Haven't touched it. It is almost word for word exactly how I reacted so it's a very like raw Moment for me. Yeah, definitely. That's really cool. We would never have known that unless we interviewed you. Right. That's so cool. That's a good book opener too. Just like the raw emotions. I think that's what really pulled me in when I first started the book. I was like, Oh, okay, this is interesting. I've never started a book like this before. Yeah, it's very real. All right. So we have some general questions just on book one, things that we're both curious about. So I'll let Kenzie start off with a couple of hers. Yes. so one of my questions where I know we touched based on selling and the background of that, but, did that require a lot of research? I know with writing, you have to do a lot of research. How was the research like for just the selling aspect of the book? I feel like that was a very interesting topic. I've never read a book on sailing before. It was really cool. Right? The sailing I'm familiar with, so I didn't really have to do research on that. The setting I had to do a lot of research on. I based it in a world that is inspired by Ireland and Wales, which I've never been to. So there was, there was a lot of research on like, well, what's the weather like there? What's the temperature like there? Is there a lot of humidity? Is there a little humidity? What plants grow there? so there was a ton of research involved in the setting and location. Yeah, tons of little details, I'm sure, that come up as you write, too. Yeah, yeah. And speaking of the setting, what inspired the time frame? I found that very interesting that it was based in the 18th century. It was so much easier to do 18th century. That's a very honest answer, I love it. Yeah, originally, originally it was contemporary and It was just so hard to have a mythological island with satellites and technology and in depth exploration and sub exploration and all of the wonderful technology that we have nowadays made it very difficult to have a mythical island. Yeah. And originally there was not magic in the story that didn't come until much later. I was like halfway through writing the book when I was like, Oh, maybe I should have magic in here. And so. So really, I was bogged down on all of this technology getting in my way, and I was talking to a friend of mine, and she's like, just don't make it contemporary, and then you don't have to worry about technology. And I was like, why didn't that occur to me? This is my book, like, so I made it historical instead. Yes, I'm very impressed by people that write urban and contemporary fantasies. It just seems like way too much to think about. Oh my goodness, especially with cell phones and social media. And no, it sounds exhausting. I don't know if I could do it to be honest. I read it and I'm like, Oh, that's really cool that you included this in that way. And then I'm like, but I can't. Yeah, I feel like you have to have a niche for it and like a real interest in technology and things like that. But yeah, that's really funny that that didn't occur to you at first. No, it's just like, man, I, all this technology is in the way. Well, at the time I also had not written a lot of historical. So, uh, it, it was really, I don't want to say daunting, but it was a little unfamiliar to go into that category. And then. I think I'll only write historical now because I just, I fell in love with the entire concept of stepping back in time. Yeah, that's really awesome. I think that was the perfect setting too, for the romance aspect of it. Like me, I'm a English major about to get my English degree soon. And, we study a lot of literature and we study a lot of texts and poems and stories from 18th, 17th, 20th century. 19th, 20th century. So it was really, it felt almost like me reading like a modern day classic. the language wasn't too difficult to understand, but it also felt like I was reading a classic book the way that the romance was set up in the timeframe and everything. It was cool. Yeah, I agree. The language was so much fun. Like the rabbit hole, I went down when I was researching like 18th century slang. It's like, how can I use this word? This is amazing. The one word that got me was, I think, bollocks, bullocks. Uh, bollocks. Bollocks. I love it. Bollocks. I remember reading that too. Was it Jasper and he was like, you're talking like a sailor now or something? Yes. I love it. It was so fun Because that kind of language barrier was there from the very beginning with her where she was like Oh, i'm so pleased to meet you and they're just like, you know us regular folk. We just say hey, what's up? So a lot of her early mannerisms were just like left over from you know 20 years of being told to speak a very certain way. So it was really fun to have her adapt to a more simplistic colloquialism and a way of speaking that was just a little bit easier for the reader, but also a little bit more relaxed for her. Not always having to think about exactly what she was saying and how she was saying it and how it might be perceived. Yeah. Yeah. we'll get into it later, but both of us really loved how much character development she had, even just within the first book. It was really cool to see her journey and her process. So many emotions throughout her time., One question I had And I've always wanted to ask a fantasy author this was writing action or fight scenes difficult because I've always felt like that would be super challenging and I felt like you did a really good job like describing and setting up the scene and I could very clearly picture in my head what exactly was happening, but I was curious for you if that was difficult. So yes and no. yes, because that is a very difficult thing for any author to do. No, because I was extremely dedicated to making sure that I got it right. One of the things I will never forget, and I'm going to go back to Twilight because it's the first one that's coming to my mind. There's a scene, have you guys read Twilight? I haven't read it. I've watched the movie, so I don't know if that counts. There's a scene, there's a scene where he stops the trap. Okay in the book. Yep is so So confusing I swear I must have read that 20 times before I finally figured out. Oh, he's stopping the truck with his hand But how did he move under the, it just never made any sense to me. And even in the movie, I'm like, that's still not fully explaining what's happening. And so anytime I write a very complicated action scenes like that, I act out the whole thing with my husband. I'll watch like martial arts videos or UFC videos, boxing videos. I'll go back and watch like sword fighting videos. And I take a lot of mental notes on like, okay, this is how they're, foot moves when they're stepping into a jab or this is how their elbow moves when they're shifting away from a blow to the neck or the head or the arm or the shoulder. And so a lot of that was just painstaking research. And especially with the height differences, like my husband is a foot taller than me. So there are definitely times where I'm like, okay, wait, let me get the stepladder and then pretend that I punched you. Where's your nose? Oh, I love that. Your husband is helping out. Yeah. The behind the scenes would be probably pretty amusing. Oh, I'm sure. Do you ever record the behind the scenes? No, maybe I should, maybe, maybe people would enjoy that. Right. He's very anti social media. I'll probably have to put an emoji over his face or something. That's so funny. Well, you definitely did a very good job, like writing those scenes and yeah, I'm the person where I have to like. In my head I'm playing a picture out during the whole action scene and if something doesn't make sense it just throws the whole thing off for me and I'm like okay I'm lost but you did such a good job. Yeah because it's not fun to have to re read something to be like wait that doesn't make sense let me go back to the very beginning six, six paragraphs ago and try to figure out exactly how this fight was working. so yeah, I'm really grateful that to get that compliment, you just boosted my ego quite a bit because I'm working on the spinoff right now and I have to write a big action scene later today. Oh my gosh, well that's good. You're doing great because it's really helpful when readers have that sort of imagery with your words and it really helps so we can really see what's going on versus like Kena said, Going back and rereading it a whole bunch of times trying to really picture what happens. So it's really helpful that we can clearly see the setting and the action and the characters. Yes, for sure. how long did it take you, like the process of researching and writing each book and then the trilogy as a whole? So I'm what they call a pantser, which means I fly by the seat of my pants. I don't have an outline or anything. So the research happens while I'm writing. So I'll be in the middle of the scene and it's like, wait, what kind of a bed did they use? And then it's an hour of what kind of mattresses did they use in each social class in the 1700s in Ireland? And then I go back to writing. the first book was a nano projects. It took four weeks. The second book took about four weeks. The third book took nine months. So about a year for the whole trilogy to be completely written. Wow, I'm actually surprised. Four weeks is not what I expected. Yeah, that one came right out of me and I literally, as soon as I stopped, I wrote that cliffhanger to book one and I was like, Nope, we're just gonna keep going. And I finished book two and I was like, I'm gonna keep going. And then book three lived probably seven different lives before I finally found the exact plot that I wanted to close out the trilogy. That's really just the trilogy because the series isn't done yet. Yeah, I was just curious about that because I saw how closely together they were published and I was wondering if you had written them all a while ago and just published them in close succession or if You just wrote them really fast, which you did, but yeah, I always say I'm a reader first and a writer second and as a reader, it can be quite emotionally devastating to find a book and develop a relationship with the characters and the plot and the setting and get emotionally invested in that plot. And then Wait a year, or two years, or three years, or sixteen years, to finally get that sequel. And by the time the sequel finally comes out, you've read seventy five other books. You've completely exhausted your resources with this one. The love you felt expired. Its shelf life was gone a long time ago. And so knowing that my books were going to end on such a big trilogy, which I was very dedicated to, I love a good cliffhanger. I absolutely do. So knowing that it was going to be a trilogy, knowing that it was going to end on a cliffhanger, it was like, if I don't have them come out. One right after the other people are gonna be waiting for a year. By the time they come back, if I have their forgiveness for that club hanger, they're not gonna pick up two. So I figured they're already written, like why gate, keep it for another year or another two years, just because that's the traditional leaf published cycle. Yeah. So knowing that, and then my publisher is extremely invested in that kind of rapid release. So I'm probably going to be doing that with my next books too. Nice. Oh, I love that. I wish more authors did that. Yeah, that's so nice. And it saves time too, because I feel like when I read a book and I have to wait a year or two for the next one to come out. I have to go back and re read the book to get myself re acclimated with all the characters and the action and the whole mythology behind everything. And I'm just like, well, got to go through this whole thing all over again. I got to start over from the start all over again. And sometimes that's great. But sometimes, you know, if you've got 50 books on your TBR and you have five sequels that just came out around the same time, it's like, how do you prioritize All right, this is the eighth book in that series. Do I go back and read all seven books again? Yeah, so I think i'll probably always have that rapid release just because as a reader It's so much more enjoyable to finish a book and be like, all right, I can grab the next one right away Yes. Yes it is Well, that's good to know and I love that you do that and that you said you're a reader first author second I love it. next we wanted to get into the mythology and the historical component of it. So we're wondering if you could tell us more about the historical side of this trilogy and what inspired it as well as any mythology that inspired the fantasy world and the magic system. So the mythology is heavily inspired by the lost island of Atlantis. And the lost island of Lemuria, both of which were cautionary tales, and both of which the islands were said to have harbored vast knowledge and technology of the future that was far beyond any other. Living civilization at that time and the historical aspect, since I decided to base it in Ireland and Wales, a lot of the clothing, mannerisms, food, etiquette. The way that the societies were organized, the class structures, names, materials that they used, food that they ate, clothing that they wore, everything was based on Research that I did on those times and those periods and those settings. And so a lot of the historical aspects sort of unfolded as I did all that research, I was able to picture it very clearly in my head. And then I love sensory details. I love sensory details. So I, immersed myself in this world. And then as I created more and more sensory details, it became. More and more established of a world. And then as the author, it felt like I was finally living inside it. That's awesome. Yeah. I was curious. My first thought was, I wonder if this was based off Atlantis or something like that, because that's what it reminded me of. So that's cool. I haven't heard of the Lumeria Island, but now I want to look it up and see. it's kind of like the South American. Okay. It's very similar, background and story and concept. And I mean, if you go down the rabbit hole of mythological islands, Atlantis is one of hundreds, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, which makes it so much like easier as the author to develop your own, because you can inspire a little bit of it based on Atlantis, but then you find there's all these other. And then you can take an element from another mythical islands or lost continents. And it's like, well, I can take an element from here and I can take an element from this one and sort of create your own system based on small elements of your own. The other islands and then, you know, whatever you want as the author to be creative in your own way. Were you interested in that mythology and those myths and legends before you started writing this book? Or was that, yeah. And then, yeah. That's like a lifelong. Yeah. Always been fascinated by ancient civilizations, ancient technology. when I was young, I thought I was going to be an Egyptologist. And then I realized that there's like no job. As an Egyptologist, other than to teach other people how to be an Egyptologist. So, um, but I think ever since watching the mummy, I was obsessed with ancient civilizations and curses and, lost worlds and concepts of just any technology or. Mannerisms or cultures that were left behind, by just centuries, just centuries of we've had progress here or progress there, you know, we have the industrial revolution, we have the age of enlightenment and all of those things, they create space for new energy and new ideas and new content. But in the path of that, we leave behind a great portion of things that we've already accomplished and achieved. That's really cool. I have even more appreciation for all of those components of the book now knowing how passionate you are about it and not just since you started writing it That's really cool. It is yeah. Yeah I am not a big history person so this is like my first historical fiction I've read ever but I really loved it and it was a lot different than what I expected historical fiction to be like and I you know I know that. People have their different, like subjects they gravitate to. And so I never really pictured historical fiction to be so entertaining because I'm not really the biggest fan of history, but it was really fun to learn about. Like Hannah said, now I'm interested in going and looking up these stories and trying to figure out where these myths and everything came from is really cool. Yeah, we've become such big nerds on our podcast. We do like a whole, oh yeah, I love it, like doing all this research and talking about what all these names mean and we just get so into it and then we're like, oh my god, we're a little bit nerdy, aren't we? But it's good. We love it. All right, we're gonna just talk about the romance really Briefly. And I'll let Kenzie take the lead on this one. Cause I, I told you, she's the romance queen. So I love how earlier you mentioned it being a really good slow burn and I love a slow burn romance. I also love when it's fast paced, but I think I appreciate the buildup and attention more when it is a slow burn. This was quite the change up for us because we usually read more like anime celebrities, especially with the fantasy, romanticy, Subject, but we did love reading about Jasper. Is that, am I saying his name right? I feel like I've heard different pronunciations of his name. So it's technically Jasper, but I'm not picky. I'm so grateful people read the book. They can pronounce it however they want. Yes. I love the fact that this was more of a. Friends to lovers and us getting to know and see their bond form. I am a sucker for the inner circle in books. I love seeing the different characters come together and make their own little found family. I love that. And seeing how, both Jasper, Jaspar, I'm going to actually, I'm going to actually have to pronounce the main female character's name. I'm going to assume it's Cordelia. Cordelia. Yeah. Okay. Cordelia. It was. Really interesting to see them both be outsiders and come into the Anchorage and, and just kind of find their home here and just create this whole little inner circle. It's really cool. And. Again, the slow burn, just a little like Jasper's goal to make her smile and laugh again. It's just like seeing him really try. That's really cool. Yes. And then, you know, Gladys hoping for the same thing. And it's just like really cool just to see all of them come together and just form this bond. And again, the whole 18th century setting was just perfect for that. And I know you spoke a little bit on sensory details. So I do appreciate that too, because I love when. characters have a certain smell. to like the main, that's like Jasper always. Always described her to smell like lavender and sea salt and I feel like that was really cool because when he said that I knew exactly who he was referring to So I do like the sensory details. I think the Colors too that you use in the book are really interesting. The fact that he had a different color for every season and the fact that yeah She had on that blue dress and he was like, I think my favorite is blue and I was just like One of my favorite moments in that whole book This is definitely different for me because I definitely prefer enemies to lovers and most of mine are high fantasy. They're super action packed and like crazy from the beginning. So this is a bit of a change up for me, but the first I was like, I don't know. And then. Jas, Jaspar and Cordelia just seeing their relationships grow and then also learning the personalities of the side characters at the end. Even though the plot was a little bit slow in the beginning, it was really just focused on the relationships. I really loved it, and I usually don't love a slow burn as much as Mackenzie does, but I thought it was really cool them like building this trust and dependency on each other. And, When they're both dealing with grief even over the same person and they don't even know it And I just love just seeing their relationship grow towards the book and then when they kiss We got physical Based on that. I really need to hear your guys's reactions after you read book two. Okay, we'll definitely Maybe I can come back after you read book two and we can talk more. Yes, yes, yes, please. I would love that. I need to crack open this. I can like just figure out what happens. I need some answers. I love slow burn. I my own marriage is a slow burn. So I think I'm always going to be a little bit closer to that. Like Yeah. I don't know. There's just something about the build up and the intensity and then the final moment. and even now with the duology, it's not friends to lovers. this one more than life, Cordelia and Jasper, it's like strangers to friends and then friends to lovers. And that was really fun to do. And the book I'm working on right now is more like not enemies to lovers cause there's not like, you know, swords and, Cardian and Judith kind of things going on, but, it's more like maybe rivals or animosity. they don't really get along at first, but it's still slow burn. So I'm still getting to enjoy the revelry of that. Yeah. Do you have a idea of when your duology will be releasing or you still figuring it out? It's coming out this spring. My publishers is, is impatiently waiting for the manuscript. the manuscript for book one is going to my, alpha reader tomorrow. And, then I gotta really, Get book two done so she can get it because it also ends on a cliffhanger and she's gonna kill me if I don't give her book two right away. That's funny. Well, congrats. It sounds like you're in the final stages. That's awesome. I'm gonna add that one to the TBR when it comes out. Yes. I'm still shocked that you're finding all this time to write so fast and be a teacher. School and podcast. My gosh, it is definitely exhausting. There are definitely days when it gets, you know, overwhelming, like backdoor to being a teacher. But, there it's like 85 percent of my job is just data nowadays. Like it's collecting data on various aspects of the teaching environment and the curriculum and the expectations. And just. All kinds of stuff. So a good portion of my job that I have to take at home with me or stay late. And, one of the things I've started doing, and this is controversial, I've heard a lot of teachers, they do not agree with this. but I found that I would rather go in early or stay late than bring it home. Yeah. Because when I bring it home, I feel like, alright, I have until I go to bed to get this done. Yeah. And then I don't have any time to write or podcast or sit down, uh, clean my house. All of those things don't get done. I've sort of put myself on a very strict schedule because i'm also in school right now I'm getting another bachelor's degree. So I have a very strict schedule of like I'm a very strict schedule I have what I call marketing monday. So monday is when I do marketing So it's when I talk to podcasts It's when I make all my reels and my posts for instagram and I schedule them to go out tuesday is when I do all of my homework assignments It's everything that is due that week. It's done on Tuesday, Wednesday is I usually record the tangled up podcast. So then Thursday mornings, I usually spend that hour while I'm getting ready, I'll edit a little bit here and there. and then, Wednesday night before and after recording, I write Thursday night, I write Friday night. I write. Saturdays and Sundays, it's all about writing. Sundays, I have to record quite a few times for both podcasts, but for the most part, it's just very consistent writing. And being on that strict schedule has really helped me stay focused on, you know, instead of waking up, like, what am I going to do today? I have nine different things that have due dates. well, this isn't a day where we're focusing on school. It's a day where we're focusing on writing. So school will be there You know, on Tuesday when we do school work or the podcast stuff will be there on Wednesday when we do podcast work. So it helps me to have a schedule like that. Nice. Yeah. I can see how that would help. I guess you have to be that disciplined when you're that busy. Yeah. You know, it's one of those things, like I, I get tired, but I don't get tired of it. because all of these passion projects are passion projects and I enjoy doing them in various aspects, so I don't really get tired. I'm human. I have limitations, but, I don't get tired of the things that I'm able to spend my time doing. I still find joy in, in writing and in podcasting and in teaching and in educating myself. and I think that being on that schedule really makes it more manageable for me to have specific times where I can really enjoy those things and not feel overwhelmed by them. Yeah, that's awesome. That's really cool. What are you getting your degree in that you're in school for right now? Education. Education. That's what I was planning to go back to school for. Well, so technically, I don't, yeah, technically I don't have a degree in education. I was hired at my school to be the school librarian, but because of the teacher shortage, I got put in a fourth grade classroom instead. And so I was like, well, I don't know how to be a fourth grade teacher. So, back to school to get my education degree and figure out how to be a teacher. Nice. Do you like teaching the little kiddos? I do. It's very different than being in the library. I feel like as the library, I had everybody from kindergarten to fifth grade. So I had the whole school. This is a much smaller unit for me to get attached to. And I get to spend a lot more one on one time with the kids and really getting to know them. My daily routine is very structured. That's also very different than the library. So that's really nice to have a really structured, like, Okay, at this time we're doing math, at this time we're doing phonics, I really have enjoyed that, and I've gotten much better at it, because, there is a lot that teachers have to do. I think I always heard my whole life that teachers work really hard, and I didn't realize, just how hard, like, to every teacher I've ever had, I never said thank you enough. But, you know, that's the, that's the part of accomplishing learning how to be a teacher is learning how to work within those parameters and those hours that they give you to get everything done. that's, that's funny because I, again, about to graduate, I graduate next week, actually, and I started to go to school, business and I switched to English because of that. I wanted to become a teacher, and my mom, she's a teacher, she's been in education for about 28 years now, so that kind of what sparked it, and I'm about to actually start working in the science field at the hospital, at the hospital, we always joke about how I went to school for one thing, and then I'm just about to totally just be a whole different, whole different thing. I mean, that's where life takes you sometimes, You know, I honestly, if you had told me two years ago, like you're going to be teaching fourth grade, I would be like, okay, how, but you know, the teacher shortage is very real and I, it had never even occurred to me. Like I was working circulation at the public library when I found out about the job in, the school library. And I was like, Oh, that would be so much fun being a school librarian. And I applied and I got hired and I was the librarian. And then, I think it was October. And I was like, well. We actually have a hundred fourth graders and only two teachers. So we're going to need somebody in there. so yeah, it's definitely not something I would have anticipated. even getting the job, like I didn't know they could do that. I didn't know they could take me out of the library and put me in a classroom that had never occurred to me. But then I talked to other people in education. They're like, well, yeah, well, what else were they going to do? And I'm like, well, I don't know. I wasn't really given, I wasn't privy to backdoor information about how the education system, but it's definitely, I won't pretend. It's not a challenge. And it's a lot of work, hours and hours of work that I never would have anticipated having to be responsible for. I would have thought teaching was just like you teach in grade papers, but there's so much testing and data that goes into being a teacher nowadays that it's just very time consuming and is very monotonous. and once you get in the habit of doing it, it becomes second nature and you're much faster at it, but when you're new, you're still like looking at the template, like trying to go back and forth from the word doc to the template, trying to figure out if you're doing everything exactly right. So I'm hoping. I'm hoping if I continue to teach that I'll get better at it as I go. That's awesome. Oh my gosh. Oh, sorry. No, you're good. You go. Did, your career as a teacher, did that kind of spark, Gladys and Cordelia's relationship in the book? Like her kind of being like a mentor? No. Yeah. No, I, so by the time I got my teaching job, I was done with book one and two and three and was working on my contract. So, by the time I got the teaching job, I was in the editing process and contract negotiations with my publisher instead. Gladys was actually slightly inspired by a boss that I had when I was a teenager. Her name is Vicky and I was working at Hardee's and There was like a vacuum in my life where both my parents worked a lot and I worked a lot and so I didn't get to spend as much time with them. And I spent all this time with her because she was my manager and she sort of became this like maternal figure to me and multiple times in my life, even as an adult. she has been, just a really great role model and inspiration. And so when I was creating the character of Gladys, I knew I wanted. Someone kind of the opposite of Cordelia, you know, Cordelia gets told by the Society that she lives in that you're a girl and you can't do anything and Gladys was like, well This is my parents tavern. So i'm gonna run it for the next 30 years despite my patriarchal society that I live in You know everything that Cordelia took sort of laying down Gladys would have fought tooth and nail for and so I wanted Cordelia to have someone that she could You Look up to because she doesn't have a mentor in a society like this. She doesn't even know how to survive, let alone thrive. And I thought about like, when I was young, who in my life outside of my family was an inspiration to me or gave me, you know, Ideas and concepts of like, I didn't know women could do this, or I didn't know people in general could do this. and so Gladys sparks a lot of hurt where she's, you know, she's kind, she's got a good heart, but there's no amount of messing with Gladys. There's just, she does not tolerate. I wish I was as tough as Gladys. I do, because that girl did not tolerate anything. She walks around her own bar, popping people in the head with tankards and I live for it. I love the bonds that she made with other people just by being herself and just being that strong, independent character. Cause even when people get out of hand, the bar, she has. The brothers, for example, come and always throw them out. And she's like, Oh, you want free beer for that? Like, I'll give you a free beer. If you go take care of this for me, you know, and that's always fun too. With Iverson. Cause Iverson is like, we would have done that for free, but since you offered, they were definitely, the three brothers were a fun addition to the side characters, but I just love, oh my goodness. I love them. Gladys was probably my favorite side character. And. I feel like Cordelia wouldn't have been able to step into her new self without GLaDOS's help. Absolutely. GLaDOS as an example. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, she needed GLaDOS, for sure. Well, speaking of character inspiration, I wanted to dig in a little to the main characters. And I just wanted to ask, what was the process of creating both Cordelia and Jasper? And I was wondering if you, identified or related with parts of either of them? I mean, a little. I think when you're a writer, there's a little bit of yourself in every character that you write. Cordelia, she needed to be certain things. She needed to be strong because she was a woman in this society, and she was at a marriageable age. She was, you know, high in this society, which means she would have had a lot of burdens on her shoulders. She would have been responsible for hosting parties, planning balls, planning socialites, leading the, gatherings. She would have been one of the most talked about and sought out people at these gatherings. So she needed to be a strong person with a lot of potential for confidence. But she also needed to be a little bit spoiled because going from that life to now she's cleaning bedpans. And chucking oysters. Those are two completely different lives. And so she could have the confidence. She just has to build it back up. So there was a lot of her personality that was anchored in trying to find out what kind of a person would be able to go from one to the other with such an extreme and still eventually be able to succeed at both. And then Jasper, I had really gotten to know Cordelia before Jasper came into the picture. Originally, the story was in first person narrative from Cordelia's perspective. And I was doing a writing exercise. I felt like I wasn't connecting with Jazz as the character. And so I was doing a writing exercise where I was writing a couple chapters from his perspective, just to try to feel who he was and what his character motivations would be. And I realized how much I loved being in his perspective. And so I switched it up and I was like, okay, I'll do, you know, back and forth Cordelia and Jasper, they each get their own chapter kind of thing. But then there were chapters where I was like, I would really love to see this from Gladys's perspective, or I really want to know what's going on with Taylor, but I'm not going to have, you know, Cordelia go to the manor to talk to Taylor. Like, how do I, so it got to a point where I was kind of like, it's third person and then that way I can do, you know, whatever chapter I want. And then there are definitely some aspects of myself, you know, when Cordelia slams the door and apologizes because she accidentally slams the door. She like apologizes to the door. Uh, that's something I do. I'll bump into a counter and, Oh, I'm so sorry. To the counter. inanimate objects that get in the way. Jasper, you know, his, sort of impatience, with people who complain. That's slightly based on my husband. That's a mannerism. That's a pet peeve of his is people complaining. So I was like, all right, what's this guy? The brothers, I have two sisters that I'm extremely close with. and I actually dedicated the second book to them. And so. Trevian, Kevin, and Iverson are kind of based on the dynamic the three of us have. And so it was really fun to have Iverson be this like jokester who gets the spookies and he believes in superstitions. And Kevin is just along for the ride, just living the life he can, he was dealt. And Trevian is this like, so embarrassed. by every little thing, and he doesn't want people to know about his crush, and he's so awkward. and I just really loved getting to channel those different elements of myself, but also people that I've known in my life, and people that I've met, and getting to Sort of see how those could become their own characters, even if they had certain mannerisms that came from other people. Nice. That's so cool to see the inspiration behind the characters and I'm definitely glad you made it multiple POVs because the story was a lot richer with all these different characters, yes, I love all the personal touches you put in the book to it makes a lot more intimate and I could tell the book was a little bit more personal, like even before reading the acknowledgements or knowing where the book was inspired from. From chapter one. I was like, this seems really personal. Usually people can't write this unless they've experienced it. But like all the relationships and everything in the book is they felt So intimate. And it was so easy to love all those characters and feel a part of the inner circle and all the friendships that were formed in the book. And Candace is going to love this question, but have you ever watched the vampire diaries? Oh my God. Yes. Yes, while I was writing this trilogy, it was the thing I was obsessed with and I desperately honestly I've been thinking of doing a rewatch lately so that maybe this is my like sign from the universe and that's exactly what I should be doing with my spare time. I'm actually rewatching it and Cordelia actually reminded me of Caroline a lot. Oh, I like that. Yeah, I didn't think of that. So when you're talking about like the character development and her being kind of like whiny at first and spoiled and then having to actually work hard, I was like this. And then by the time we get to the end of it, Caroline is like our favorite character, like way better than, Oh, that's funny. Yeah. I need to do a rewatch. I loved that show so much. Me and Kenzie can do a Vampire Diaries podcast. Yes, we can. She knows a lot about it. So then I have to ask, have you read, Vampire Academy? I haven't. Okay, so go read those and then contact me. Because they are the epitome of teenage vampire drama book. Nice. if anybody reads Twilight and is like, Oh, I love teen vampire. I'm like, read this series instead. Nice. I will. I'll put it on my TBR. That's so funny. Every episode we've done, Kenzie's found some way to connect whatever book we're talking about to Vampire Diaries. Yes, absolutely. I love it. I think the reason I've been hesitant to do a re watch is because Bonnie breaks my heart. I know. Bonnie and Enzo, every time I watch that, I'm like, really writers? Really? Everything she's done and you can't give her Enzo? Are you kidding me? Like, I think that's probably why I'm hesitant to do a re watch. I just don't want to put myself through that again. Well anytime I re watch it, I don't go past season 6. That's fair. That's a good stopping point. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. I could see that. Because definitely that season without Elena was like, whoa. Yeah, yeah. But I was like, y'all should have just been like, Nate, anytime a TV series is like, we don't need the main character. It's like, I know it's false. Yeah. Well, while we're talking about. Characters. I know you said that you kind of write and then research a little bit and write. So when you're like thinking of these characters and forming these characters, do you know who they are before you sit down and write? Do you kind of have an idea of what they'll look like, their personality, or do you kind of just get ideas as you write when you're writing these characters? A lot of it is simultaneous, especially cause like I'm a, you know, I'm a millennial, so I still have my Pinterest board. And so I'll go on Pinterest and type in like, Um, you know, 17th century sailor and I'll see all these images and then it'll sort of generate what people look like. And, a lot of the, and I feel this right now because I'm working on a duology in the same universe, but with very different characters, a lot of the characters sort of develop as the story unfolds and the story unfolds as I develop the characters. It's kind of a simultaneous union between the two and when it comes to. You know what they look like some of it is like I have six characters with brown hair. Maybe I should make somebody have different hair color. but some of it is also like, it just feels like this character would look this way for some reason, when I was writing Trevian, I knew he was going to be. Shy and awkward and that he was going to get embarrassed a lot. And my husband is a redhead. So any emotion he has is red everywhere. And so I thought, Oh, he's perfect to be a redhead because, Oh, hi kitty. She looks so unhappy. That face. Oh, he looks very unhappy. He's very grumpy all the time. Right? but yeah, I knew Trevia needed to be a redhead because then he could, you know, his neck is always getting red when he's embarrassed or the tips of his ears or things like that and, I think that when I'm writing, the more I know about the characters, the more they start to feel real to me and then I start to realize what their mannerisms are. Like Trevian always saying, Dunno, do I? Or Iverson and his feelings and he's so superstitious or Dyrmid, you know, whistling when he thinks nobody's looking but then immediately turning the scowl back on and, you know. the reveal that Dyrmid is only like 31 years old was always one of my favorites because he just seems like this curmudgeon and then it's like, you, Wait, what? You were her age 10 years ago? That doesn't make sense, like. I thought he was at least 60. I thought he was still young. I didn't know he was going to be that young, and then I needed something to connect us to the fire because we needed to have this established like Hagen's are bad before we got to the reveal that Jasper is a Hagen. So I was trying to find ways to have a little clue here and there so that it wasn't just like, I hate information dumps. So I was trying to avoid that. And so I thought, well, why does Dierman have a limp? Why is he at the end? Why is he a grumpy old man? And then I was like, what if he's not old? What if he's just like, Super grumpy and so people treat him like he's old, but he's only like 31 And so I had it be that he was about Cordelia's age When the fire took place 10 years ago, so he's like 29, 30 years old. Wow. He's just an old man in a young body. He's an old soul, yeah. That's so funny. I'm glad you said his name because I honestly had no idea how to pronounce it. It's hard, man. Some of these names I picked. Wait, how do you say it one more time? No, you have to like, you have to like roll your mouth in the middle so it's get her amid. You have to like, in the middle. Yeah, it took me a while too. Or Cleegbeal. See, my names are weird, because I was like, Okay, I need a name that means something to do with what he is. And he's a talisman creator. And Cleegbeal means Axeman. So I'm like, okay. This like, kind of, sort of, slightly works. So that's where it comes from. But then you know, my Ria, my dad's name was Mike, so Mike Ria. So that was heavily inspired. I was trying to find a way to combine Mike and Lumia. So my Ria, yeah, that was, and then Ro, his middle name was Allen. So I was like, okay, well how do I make something kind of like Allen and then there's a country in book, or a city in book two called Desiree.'cause my mom's name is Desiree. So a lot of it is like little tidbits of somebody else that I'm trying to. Manipulate into this world. The brothers, I knew I wanted one to be named Kevin after my uncle. And so then it was, well, what names rhyme with Kevin? Because. My mom named all her kids with the N at the end. So it has, it's Brittany, Bethany, Lindsey, Sammy. So I'm like, okay, I want all of them to have the same ending. So what names go with Kev in? And so I found Trevian and Iverson. And so, some of the names are just a rabbit hole of information that I found online that I just decided had to be in the book for some reason. Nice. That's so cool where you got the names from the inspiration behind them. I like the fact that it was like all these different inspirations and they just kind of all feel together and came together at the end. That's really cool. Yeah, it's so cool. I love learning about it. the only thing we really had left on the agenda is we just had some thoughts about the plot and the characters. And I just want to say, yeah, I really. Loved Cordelia, like I mentioned earlier, we loved her character growth, but it's really important for me when I read, especially fantasy, I have to like the FMC and I have to relate to her in a little bit of way. And I just loved her character. She was raised completely different and she's so hardworking and resilient that she's able to completely change her life. Like you said, she had to be a strong person to go to that extreme shift. And I think it speaks a lot to her dad's character and the way he raised her that she was able to do that. And as someone that's really close with my dad too, that just made me like really, Because I feel like my dad made me into a really strong person. And so that was really cool. So I just really loved her. And again, I did love Jasper, even though I wanted to punch him a few times. I mean, you have to forgive him after that talisman scene. Doesn't that just break your heart? I cried so much writing that. I almost took it out like five times. I just, I was so sad writing that. But it was so necessary for the plot. I know it was. Yes, I've forgiven him. Um, yes. One of my favorite parts was just the plot twist of Jasper's descendants and how the curse wasn't what he thought it was and everything around, around Kolaris is not what they thought it was. And I just thought that was so interesting and that's what made me probably the most excited for book two. So I am planning on finishing it. I'm currently reading a Brandon Sanderson series right now. And I'm thinking about it like 100 percent of the time, so I have to finish that and then I'm gonna hop back into your series. But I'm excited to see where the plot hits. I love it. Yeah, same. Same with, you know, Kena. I think Cordelia, like, her character development was just so important, especially for the readers. And I didn't realize at first, when I first started the book, how Prominent her character development would be and like us really going in depth and seeing the whole process But it was interesting and also kind of funny seeing her shift in society How she goes from you know, like a lady and then she joins the working class And it's just like me being a part of the working class as I was 16 I was like, how do you not know how to do some of this stuff? But it's true, and it kind of symbolizes society because we still also have different societies and something that I know how to do another person that might be a different class won't know a thing about it. And it's honestly so interesting. And just it baffles me that We all don't have those same common skills that we can like survival skills. That came from experience. You know, I got my first job when I was 12. I was waitressing from the time I was 12 to the time I was 23. I de tasseled in the summer. I worked at Hardee's. Like I always had a job. And I was working at a local bookstore a few years ago and this guy was there working with me and it was his like, he'd been there for like two months and it was my first day and he was like, okay, um, so now we have to do this part of the job and I'm going to show you how to sleep. And I was like, I know how to sleep, but it turned out he didn't. So part of his training when he first got hired was learning how to sweep and mop the floor. So when he was training me, he just assumed everybody needed that training. And I was like, I don't know why I moved my head for your cat. I just saw the tail. But my husband has had that too. Like he worked with someone who was like 19 and he like couldn't make his own coffee. He'd never touched a coffee pot before. And I think the more you live in the world and the more people you meet, the more you're like, take for granted that not everybody knows how to do things. Like she can't even properly open a door because for her whole life, someone has opened a door for her. So she's like, man, this is heavier than it looks Like Yes. Yeah. I thought you did a good job capturing all the little things that would be so different. It wasn't just the really big things. It was like that thing, with the doors. You would never think about that, but that's something that she would have to deal with. Yeah. And her style. Yeah. Or braiding her hair. Yeah. Yeah. That style. Her clothes climbing up and down, like she's, somebody's always pulled out a chair for her. She doesn't know how to sit on a bar stool like. or her, you know, chucking the oysters. she didn't know she was supposed to do something with it. And then, she'd already dropped a giant pot of porridge and lost her shoe. She wasn't about to ask a question. she was too embarrassed. So, she just, you know, It's just, till her poor tiny little fingers were like bleeding, like she just, and I think that that's what makes you root for her, like, yeah, cause that's exactly what I would have done. 100 percent I'd be like, you know what, I embarrassed myself enough, I'll figure it out, I'm not even gonna ask. 100 percent that's what I would have done. I can't ask a question. Right? I love, I love the It's so hard. Comedy aspect of it too, because the scene where she drops the porridge and then she like walks out and then she comes back in and she's like digging it and she like pulls her slipper out and she walks off. I'm just like, oh my gosh. Yeah. When she's freaking out about the mouse and she's like, well, actually, it was a potato. But it was like a mouse, I swear. Yeah, that was really fun, though, because, I found a lot with. You know, like what you talked about before with like your FMC, I found a lot in books and series that I love. It's interesting that I love them considering how annoying the FNC is, like Vampire Diaries and Elena. Yes. After like Season 3, that girl drives me bonkers. Yeah. Um, so it's interesting to think of you know, when you're creating a female character, at least from my Perspective as an author. you have to make her relatable, but you don't want her to be so annoying that people are like, I don't really care what happens. You know, you want people to root for her. So she had to do silly things like dropping a pot of porridge, but then she had to be adorable by coming back and getting her shoe, um, you know, or she had to be like afraid of the dark because it's the dark, you know, but then you have people like Jasper, you know, it's like, Dearmid is a scoundrel. There's no rats. It's not that dark. Get down there and do your job. so, it's a really nice way for the two of them to, to balance each other because Jasper being irritated and annoyed by her could not last very long if we wanted to root for him either. Yeah, very true. And speaking of Jasper, I, so on the flip side, I am always very crazy about the main male characters. I am like always boy crazy in books and I have a thousand books. I always call myself toxic because I love when we have like a very complicated male main character and we kind of just see his walls just kind of tear down bit by bit. I think we also get that with Jasper because I noticed from the jump, he was very wary of, physical touch and it took him a while to adjust to even being like physical with Cordelia and I loved how he just slowly grew softer and grew more fond of her. And I love like, just When the main male characters just lose their all grip of their control and they're just like, forget it. I admit it. I'm in love. Sorry. Like I was being such an asshole at first. I'm so glad that you mentioned his aversion to touch because a lot of people haven't picked up on that yet. And it was one of the most interesting. character developments that I got to explore because I had to think about who this man would be and would act like if he had nobody in his life for the last 12 years. And one of the things that you would lose in that situation is physical touch. And so I was trying to think of a situation in my own past where I might have experienced that. And, my husband is in the United States military. And shortly after we got married, he got deployed for six months. And I had not made connections with the area we moved to. I hadn't made connections yet. And I realized I was going through a really severe depression very quickly. And I couldn't figure out why. And I remember speaking with my dad about it and he's like, well, you're probably as touch start. And I was like, I don't even know what that means. You get so used to small touches, even just from your friends that you don't realize it. But if somebody hasn't physically touched another person in a while, it can have an impact on their psyche. and so I was thinking when I was writing him, like what kind of a person, Like what are the things in his life that he would be lacking other than conversation or attachments and one of them was that he'd be very touch starved, but because he's so touch starved, he would almost be have an aversion to being touched in general, because it just doesn't mean the same thing to the people that can't remember you. And so that was really fun. And then it also gave me the opportunity to have that spark really, really early. Cause I knew I wanted them to be like faded somehow, but I was like over the whole Nate word. I just wanted to find my own word of saying that, I guess. and so I was, I know when you have a mate, it's like when you first touch, that's when you like, Oh, we're instantly in love. I didn't really want that, but I did want there to be like a significant hint. You know, trail of breadcrumbs that we could follow when we got that reveal later on. And so I think the physical touch being so limited to just once or twice here and there made it really easy to be like, Oh, there's always a little spark when they touch, but it could just be static electricity. Who knows? He's like, Oh, it's just my skin. Sweater, my jacket, my wool from my cloak, you know, no biggie. I really loved how tortured Jasper was. That makes me be like, Oh my gosh, this man is. You just want to give him a big hug, right? Poor guy. Well, he won't accept my hug probably, but yeah, I mean, by the end he might. But yeah, it was such an interesting story that like, no one remembers him and he's just like constantly anonymous person and like little things like that. Like the touch starvation. I think that's really cool. It really helps explain his backstory and make it feel real. But I just love the way you wrote his backstory and I don't know, I just loved it all. The two main characters were written so well. I loved it. They were. You know, it's interesting. They had a very different dynamic the first run through. a lot of those tender moments that we have with them were aftershocks. I was starting to write book two, and I came up with this really cool plot twist that I was dedicated to, and I realized I hadn't given myself the groundwork to have that plot twist. So another reason that my books will always be all written before they come out in case I need to change something. Um, so I had to go, I had to go back to book one and while I was revamping everything, I was, I noticed a pattern I think it was like chapter five or six that they met and they were going to go find Kolaris. And I was like, why is she running? She doesn't know him. Why is she running off with this man? Just because he's like, I totally knew your dad. Like, no, no. So I kind of backtracked and I was like, okay, they need to have met like at least two or three times. Because she can't just run off and leave her entire life behind. You Because some dude is like, Hey, I used to work with your dad, but you've never heard of me. Cause I have a curse, but do you want to go find this fake Island? Like I needed there, they had to have a connection. So a lot of their tender, sweet moments that the two of them had were born because I didn't want that typical YA trope of like. They meet and then they're just like she's gonna run away with a strange man. Yeah As an adult i'm like I can't in good conscious write this. I gotta come up with something else I can't be giving out that advice. You should know them first. I find this really interesting too. When I'm reading the slow burn for me, like a guilty pleasure for me when I'm reading the slow burn is the actual, like, report that I'm putting myself to through, because especially in this book, when they're like, they're literally in the same room and the same end, they've contacted, And there's so many hints towards who she really is. I'm like, why don't they know who they are? Like who each other are like doesn't occur to them frustrating, but like, okay, the veil was one of my favorite things to do because, if you go back to chapter two and three, where we have the funeral services, she's wearing this like really heavy veil to cover her face, but she's also a lady. She's wearing this elaborate maroon gown, her hair is in these perfect ringlets, she has these long silk gloves on, she's very polished. And then when he sees her at the end, her hair is like a rat's nest, she's got dirt all over her face, her dress is covered in, in, in porridge, and she's got like, rips here and stains there, there's a hole in her slippers, like, even if he had seen Cordelia without the veil, it's like removing a filter and makeup from someone, you know? They look totally different. I, have you guys seen those makeup videos where they like make themselves? I'm shooketh when I see those. so yeah, it had to be right under his nose, but it also makes sense that that never would have occurred to him, that like, Oh, that's totally the captain's daughter. Why would he make that connection? That was really fun because that was my way of connecting it to our own society and our like standards and acceptance of beauty that we have now. Yeah. I was getting so frustrated. I was like, when are they going to realize more? I would go back and think about everything since then. I'd be like, okay, it makes sense. That's the only thing I couldn't get past. I was like, I wish he would just put together, like. Cordelia, Delia, Elia, right? Yes. Like dang far. Come on. Like the one clue that he has, he can't even use it to, you can't even figure out But we also have all these moments where he could have learned, but then Gladys tells the boys to stop talking about it or. You know, Dearmid almost lets it slip. And then Dearmid is like, you don't need to know what's going on. Cause I'm a grumpy man. So it's fun too. Cause we have this like, Oh, he's going to find out son of a gun. He still doesn't. All right. So it's that constant back and forth and. it probably does go on a little too long, but I was the author and I felt like I could drag it out if I wanted to. It's a good slow burn. I feel like it was definitely worth it. And I like the fact that they were able to, form a genuine connection. I also found it interesting that he didn't find her, That appealing at first, like you said, when he first met her, she had, her hair was a mess. She was all dirty. She was nasty. And I feel like that opened up, like that opened up just the word church really got her. Like that opened up opportunity for them to bond and form a real connection. It was more than just physical appearances for them. It was their personalities and how they. Compliment each other. And I don't know, I feel like it was just a real chemistry and a genuine connection between them because he, again, didn't find her that cute at first. He was like, I don't see the hype. It's like she looks like a regular person. What's the big deal? I think that's probably influenced by my own marriage, not in terms of the fact that we weren't physically attracted to each other. Just in terms of like, I've been with my husband for so long that I don't actually remember what it's like to not be married to him or be with him in some capacity. And I remember I was talking, my mom just got remarried like five years ago and I remember I was talking to her about something and she. Had said like, Oh, well, Quentin looks so different than when you guys were younger. And I was like, no, he doesn't. And then I looked at a picture from when we were in our twenties and I was like, wow, we both look so different, but you don't notice it. I look at him and I see the person I married and those little tiny changes are so gradual. You don't really notice it. And then somebody puts a picture in your face from 15 years ago. And it's like, man, we are getting old. So it's just one of those things where it's like if he had been instantly attracted to her Or if she had been instantly attracted to him I feel like the slow burn would not have had the same appeal because You're kind of waiting for it at that point. Whereas this way it's like, well, they could end up just being friends and I would be okay with that. You know, to a certain point, I think there is a point where you're like, she better not end up with Kevin. He doesn't appreciate her. Sorry, Kevin. You're not going to get the girl. Kevin was such a funny side character. I love Kevin. He's fun. Iverson and Kevin and Trevian. Those are some of my favorite characters that I got to include. And then Trevian and Marcel are so funny. Cause Marcel is like so stoic. Even he doesn't know what he's thinking. And then Trevian is like emotions on his face, hard on his sleeve kind of person. And yeah, they're just so fun. Speaking of Trevian and Marcel, I love the scene when they're, at the, They're at the bar and, it was during the snowstorm and like, Oh, Marcelle, you want to help my brother board up windows just like intentionally trying to get them together. Iverson is always playing matchmaker. He's like, Marcelle, my brother is sick. You should come check on him with me. Like it's so cute the way Iverson and Kevin try so hard to get Trevian over his fear and his shyness. They're like, just go for it. You're driving us nuts with this crush from afar. You're like, And it's so sweet that Marcel is just completely oblivious. He's so, he's such a chill person that like, he just lives his life. He doesn't really pay attention to everything else. And I just thought that was so funny to have this like polar opposite, connection between the two people. Yeah, If Gladys wasn't my favorite side character, I think Kevin would be. Yeah, but Gladys and Taylor are like two of my favorite people. as their writer, I did not know I was going to do that. I was writing the scene where she gets the letter and Gladys is talking to Mary. And for some reason I wrote that Gladys was going to go talk to Taylor. I wanted Mary to stay with. With Cordelia and then I was like, why would Gladys go talk to somebody she's never met and then I was like, oh, but she has met him What if in another life they knew each other and so it kind of opened this whole can of worms of like well What if there was another life? What if Gladys and Taylor had another life when they were younger? Where they fell in love and life came between them and pulled them apart. and so then I got to go back and add a bunch of stuff and make it these little connections of like, Taylor's actually the one that sent her to Anchorage and because he contacted Gladys and, um, Gladys was always talking about her lost love. She actually was referring to Taylor. And there's one side mention of Taylor being like the one woman I loved would never acted like that. And it's like, Oh, I wonder who that is. And then we find out later it's Gladys. And so the two of them were really fun as well. That's the ultimate slow burn 30 years. Oh my gosh. That was a really slow bird. I hope they get back together, but I guess I'm gonna have to read more to find out. We'll see. I love that scene, cause Mary's like, why would you go talk to Taylor? You don't even know him. She's like, I'm gonna go talk to Taylor. And then Glyce is like, oh, has it been so long that people don't even realize that, that we were betrothed? But that's how long it's been 30 years people forgot. Yeah All right. Before we close out our episode, we're going to do Trial by Trivia, a segment we usually do on our regular episodes, and Bethany is going to give us some trivia questions on book number one of her trilogy, and we're going to hopefully get them right. Okay. Okay. so my first question is what is the first clue that Jasper is a Hagen? That's a different cat it is That's a different cat Hi, honey, he's even more grumpy I'm trying to think. I feel like it was when, I don't remember what the exact scene, but I know it was supposed to be in the book. And he was wishing to summon a fire so they can see better. Yeah, chapter two. Okay. He was like, I'm cold, but I'm not going to bother with summoning a fire right now. It's too risky. I did highlight that part because I was like, that's very suspicious. I was like, why are you summoning a fire in my life? Like, what caused you to think that this was an acceptable I absolutely miss that, but good job. Kenzie Well, I glad didn't even like twice about it. I'm really big on annotating. I feel like out of both of us, Cana is really big on like the mythology and theory, so I'm really big on foreshadowing. Mm-hmm So I like to figure out what happens. I love foreshadowing. Okay, so you will love book two because I foreshadowed the duology I'm working on now in chapter one of more than Life. I. love foreshadowing. That's why when I wrote the plot twist in book two, I went back. Because I absolutely love the concept of leading little clues everywhere with the little Easter eggs and stuff. So I'm huge on foreshadowing. So then my other question would be what was the first clue we had about Kolaris? Like the first mention of the island. Oh man. I feel like it was, she mentioned her father, something about it with her father, but I don't feel like that's right. That's my first thought. Hmm. Let me see. Um, hmm. Would it, was it? I feel like it was also towards the beginning of the book and it was like after the funeral and we were in Jasper's point of view and he was talking about the different adventures that he and the captain went on and what they were looking for. But the first time we heard the word. The word. Oh, from um, The word Polaris. What's the brother? What's the youngest brother? Uh, Trevion. Yeah, Trevion. Trevion? I don't know. I forgot how to say it. But he was like, they were thinking of him because he was scared. Or, no, he wrecked his ship or something because he was trying to find a lost island. Yeah. He's gonna save their gran. Yes. He's gonna save their gran on. I don't know why, but that scene was like, I don't know, it was kind of funny to me because they're like picking on me. I was like, what happened to your first ship? What happened to it? That was such a great scene. I thought it was hilarious. And you know, that was something I wrote because My editor was like, you need to have more clues about Kolaris back in the front of the book. we don't find out about it until the middle. We need clues so that by the time we find out about it, We're like, oh, Kolaris is this established legend within the culture. and so that was the scene I went back and added that and then the scene at the market where they have the like puzzle of Kolaris. But I always loved that scene because I just thought it was so funny and it sets up the brotherly dynamic very quickly for the trio. Yes, that does. Well, dang. Good job, McKenzie. This is the best I've ever done on trivia. I always lose. Yay! Okay, I have more. Alright, let's do it. Okay. Okay. What is a mannerism Jaspar notices about Cordelia when she's eating that he later helps her with? Hmm. Hmm. It was one of the ways I established that they had gotten to know each other and they'd really gotten close over the months and that they were how to, they had started bonding intimately. You might have got me on that one. The only thing that's going to mind is my dad. And he tears up the bread and puts it in her soup for her. Oh. Cause he knows that's how she eats her soup, with the bread torn up. So that was me trying to show that they eat together a lot. He's noticed this mannerism of hers. Okay. But she's never had any. That was the first thing that came to my mind. I was like, oh, she's never drank anything. Yeah, that was a fun scene too. I loved that scene. Oh my goodness. That is just like, I'm going to knock you out and judge my ale. He's like, well, she's never had it before. She's like, well, oh, okay. Then in that case. I guess it's all right. Oh, man. I'm trying to think if there's anything. Oh, we talked about Jasper's favorite colors. You guys liked that scene. Do you remember what they were? For all the seasons? Okay, just the one that changed to blue if you want. Oh Cuz winter was What was winter? Oh dang Winter was Mmm, I'm just like I'm gonna mmm great silver White yeah white sometimes over Okay. Yeah. And then there's a quote. This will be my last one because I could do this all day. Um, there's a, there's a quote from the first time that the two of them have a moment, just the two of them where they're sitting outside and he gives her the cloak and they're talking about how he likes to. Do something unique that she thought was interesting because most people don't do it. Do you remember what that was? Because that quote is very big in the second book. They're sitting on the bench and What's he doing out there? It's their first time privately interacting. It's the night that they meet and she goes outside to cool off because she's overheated from working so much. He's outside sitting on a bench doing something. Man, I do remember this scene. I remember this scene because this is why he was like Shocked that she showed sympathy for him and actually understood his. Yeah. Yeah What was he doing? Um Not gonna lie. This is kind of fun for me It just shows me that you guys actually read the books So that's nice. I'm usually pretty good at trivia when we do it on our normal episodes, but I think it's because we do it in like stretches of chapters. Yeah. A or two before it. So it's all fresh in my mind. And then I finished this book like last week. Yeah. So I'll give you a hint. The activity he's doing is reading he's reading, but what's so strange about him reading outside that she notices. I feel like this should be obvious. This is more fun. He might have gotten me. Wait, was he reading poetry? The words of an old friend. He was reading the words of an old friend. It's our hint that he was reading a journal of the captain. Because he says, I was reading the words of an old friend. Oh, okay. Okay. There we go. Mmm. Even with the hints, I'm like Even with the hints, I'm like, okay. My wheels are turning. So, wait. The question is, what was he doing? What did he say? What did Cordelia notice about the way he was reading? And why was it unique? I don't know. I think you got me with that one. Yeah. So she noticed that it was unusual to read outside in the dark and he said that he likes reading by the moonlight because the sun is bright and he has to squint but something about the moon is peaceful. I do. And that quote has a comeback in book two. Oh, okay. Yeah. So that's why I wanted to Now I'm trying to get you guys to read book two. Oh, it's happening. So I can come back and we can talk again. For sure, for sure. I'm even more motivated to read it now that, like, I've met you and I know, the author behind the book. Yes. And all these things that we know about. No, honestly, please have me back. I've talked to so many people about book one, and I never get to talk about book two or three. Yes, well, let's yeah, we will plan on reading the second and third book and maybe we can do a follow up interview, that'd be awesome. Okay, works for me. Awesome, All right. Well, that's a wrap folks Thank you for tuning in to our very first author interview and thank you Bethany so much for letting us interview you. Listeners, we really hope you TBR. It's definitely Shadow and Starlight approved. And correct me if I'm wrong, I think you can find it on Kindle Unlimited, Amazon, and most bookstores. Is that right? Yeah. Every bookstore, Target, Walmart. If you live in the Las Vegas area, I go to the Barnes and Noble all the time and sign everything they have. So you probably find a signed copy really quickly. Cause I go in there and I just grab all my books and start signing them. Nice. I love that. Cool. Well, yeah, we're definitely. Looking forward to finishing the trilogy and doing a follow up interview where we can talk about everything else that happens after book one. So that'll definitely be on our schedule for sure. That would make me really happy. Yes, I appreciate you taking the time out to meet us. It was so cool talking about like For us never having an author interview up like this was like, I loved it. I loved the conversation. I didn't know what to expect talking to an author, but I loved it. No, this was so much fun. I've been laughing the whole time. I love it. Yes, I'm done. It was very fun. Well, so nice to meet you. Talk soon. You as well. Thank you. All right. Bye. Bye.