CA and Quality Control in Modular Construction with Gustavo Matoso

In this episode of What the RFI, Matt Brennan and Gustavo Matoso discuss the intricacies of architecture and construction management, particularly in the context of modular design and its implications for educational facilities. They explore Gustavo's transition from Brazil to Canada, the challenges faced in construction management, and the evolving landscape of modular construction in the education sector. The conversation highlights the importance of quality control, building codes, and the role of architects in ensuring successful project outcomes.

Takeaways

• Gustavo Matoso shares his journey from Brazil to Canada.
• The construction management process differs significantly between Brazil and Canada.
• Childcare and school designs are a major focus for Gustavo's firm.
• Managing RFIs can be a complex and varied experience across projects.
• Modular construction is becoming a preferred method for school expansions.
• There are challenges in maintaining design integrity with modular construction.
• Quality control in modular projects is crucial and often requires architect involvement.
• Building codes in BC are more stringent than in Alberta, impacting modular projects.
• The future of modular design in education looks promising but requires adaptation.
• Networking and collaboration among professionals are essential for success.

Sound Bites
"What do all these have in common?"
"I think my whole life is a big move."
"The management of a construction is a huge difference."

Chapters
00:00 Introduction to A4LE and Guest Background
03:07 Cultural and Professional Transition from Brazil to Canada
05:57 Experiences in Childcare and School Design
09:11 Challenges in Construction Management and RFIs
12:04 Modular Construction: Insights and Opinions
14:54 The Future of Modular Design in Education
18:14 Exploring the Impact of Modular Construction on Design
21:03 Quality Control and Building Codes in Modular Construction
23:48 The Role of Architects in Modular Projects
27:02 Wrap-Up and Future Perspectives on Construction
29:55 Conclusion and Networking Opportunities

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Transcript

0:00

A4LE, school tours, a pyramid, and a Brazilian? What do all these have in common? Stick around. Hi, I'm Matt Brennan and welcome to What the RFI, the podcast all about CA from the lens of an architect and project coordinator's perspective. Today we are live from A4ALLi. We're in the interior chapter of the beautiful Kelowna Okanagan BC. And again, I share the stage with Gustavo. Say hi. Hey. Tell about yourself. Who are you? What firm are you with? I'm Gustavo, Gustavo Matoso. I am from Brazil. have over 11 years of experience in Brazil. And since I've moved to Canada, I started working at Arcos Consulting, which is a small company. And I was doing mainly child care facilities. And after that, I was hired by Eridale, which was a game changer in my life. And there, I got the pleasure to be invited to be an associate. And today, with Graham Coleman, we are running the studio of education. So we do schools and child cares there. Very cool. And yeah, you from making the, that was a big move. You know, it was a risk, right? You didn't know when you came over. I think that my whole life is a big move. It's a big change. It's true. It's starting in Brazil and like, tried to have my own company there. Things didn't go so well. And then so many things happened. So many changes in life, changing career and the decision of moving abroad. I think was the biggest step that I ever had. Just because like, honestly, the differences between the industries are huge. And without knowing exactly what was expecting me here and accepting the first job, like with a low salary, with just a risk, think that everything was a risk. And at the time that I accepted Aridale was a second risk. Like it's just the second employment. thanks God I found great people, great team. like I found really supported by them with all the questions I had about the industry, all the questions I had about the whole process. are they totally different? Like in terms of like construction methods and everything, like I've got some really good friends from South Africa and like that was the learning curve for them. It was the type of constructions that they do. back home to here? how is it? Is it similar or where do you find? I think that in terms of construction, yes, there is a big difference, mainly because in Brazil we do concrete and brick work mostly. We do have dry wall, but it's not something that is, I don't know, like the basis for houses, for instance. It's all about brick and concrete and arriving here and knowing that it's all about wood frame mostly. That is a big change. And of course, the temperature, all the weather requirements, making sure that you have a building that is airtight, the envelope, all the details, layers after layers on the envelope that has to be in the correct order. Like all of that was a big learning curve for me. Of course, the concept of a building didn't change. The concept of design didn't change. But the main... difference and that actually goes exactly in the direction of these podcasts. The management, the administration of a construction is a huge difference. Big difference. We're going to get into that in detail in a second, but yeah, definitely want to, this would be an event, be, you know, a live from A4ALLi. And I guess kind of the big things was, you know, any favorite moments, anything that you enjoyed from, you know, today's speaking or Wow, favorite moments. anything that you were like, hey, that's a eureka moment. I'm going to take that back or something. I don't know if I can say like about a specific moment, but I was thrilled to be involved with so many childcare designs and seeing them ready and with children and just using and playing around. was like, it's a big change. I've never had like... experienced building a school or a childcare in Brazil that was the first time that I was doing it was here. So that was a big change in my career. And looking at that now, seeing that ready, that was really great. Being involved with the whole design. like, think that above all, as a project manager, not only as an architect, the way that projects are managed here, that makes the sense to me. Like having control over the information, having control over the changes, having control of everything that is happening during construction, making sure like in summary, if I can say, imagine that here we know that the construction manager talk to you at the same level. of knowledge and experience and organization. They are engineers. They are people that know what they are doing. They manage from start to finish with really control over cost documents and sharing that they are matching or trying as much as they can. The drawings is impressive. Whereas in Brazil, you can lose track on that really easily. And yeah, you can still lose track here, like with the, you know, lots of discussions about, you know, tonight, about how the different games are. And I was talking to, you know, some good friends and we joked, but it made sense. We said, you know, when you start a job, right? When you design it and before it goes out of tender, put them random piece of steel somewhere and make it look like it's legit, but just as kind of out of place. And what we were getting at, it was part of this whole game process moment. goes in the first train door that you issue. the proposed change is that you delete that random beam. It wasn't doing anything. And then you get it basically, you get a unit rate of the beam. And then the next moment when it's being erected for steel and like, there was a mistake. We got to so much steel. You can just be like, that was what you gave me. That's the enterprise that you provided me going forward. I know right away. You know, right away. And you could play the games back. rather than always getting it from the, you know, the contractor side. And again, it's You never go in with that intention. You are a team right from the get-go. But you do get the ones that like to fish for an extra, you know, and let's just inundate you with RFIs and all those fun challenges that we have. You're to find everywhere like different people, different type of companies. And of course, you can have a really good company that you're working with right away. And that's perfect. But sometimes it's just not as perfect as you wish. And on that note too, kind of being here in Kelowna, one of the last jobs I did before I left my last firm, Station One Architects, and then joining part three, is we did six repeat day cares all throughout Kelowna. So it basically was the same drawings, but just six different site locations. So yes, there might be the site conditions, that's the only alternate, but. At the end of the day, it's the same drawing package gone out to six different contractors. six different contractors. Yeah, exactly. So it was tendered six different times, because originally it was supposed be tendered one. But what was very interesting, and we came up in our conversation earlier, is you think it is literally the same drawing package. And yet some would get like, one of them I think had maybe 15 RFIs, like very minimal for the year of construction. And then some had like 120. So again, it was the same documentation, same details, no difference. And yet what a difference. And same thing with change orders too. Some would pick up on little stupid stuff and make it a hassle and headache. But at the of the day, what a mixed bag. And that shows just the lens of a perspective. And I am sure that the cost of the construction were different as well, even though they were the same design. It's exact same. Like I said, was the same drawings. Just the only thing in fairness was the site. And so, you know, excusing that from the equation, it was a mixed bag of, you know, information, but it's all from different perspectives. And the contractor looking at it, sometimes it was legit. and, but the moment sometimes they would issue and be like, you got to make a change. And if it was a legit mistake, we'd issue the change on the other jobs immediately. So it becomes the cost would be less because they were built in different sequence, right? So had daycare one, and then daycare, you know, when daycare one was being finished, daycare six was just being started. So any mistakes that happened on daycare one or two, we caught them in five and six. That's amazing to say that because like one of the construction that I wanted to talk about to you is one experience we are having now is that we have three sites, three schools, similar design, but it's the same contractors. So we have the same thing. So every time that I get an RFI for one, it's the same RFI that comes from the other. we have literally three times documentation. Right. the project. And rightfully so, there are three contracts. The same, three contracts, but the same contractor? Yeah, so that's fine. So yeah, so they are contractually three different sides. So they're all gonna have different change orders or progress claims and regardless, but yes, it is one contractor. Is there any way that you guys can kind of save your time and review one shop drawing package for... The whole thing or you got to do a one, one, one. We have to do three times regardless. And one of the reasons is that even though we have the same contractor, like the same contractor on site, doing the construction administration, sometimes I have three different trades. Yeah. Okay. And that's where the three different shop drawings, three different submittals, you have different people signing off on the submittals. And aside from that, even like they are really similar designs, but they are not specifically equal. Yeah. They have some some differences. Yeah. At the end, like we review one when we are reviewing the second one, we will get the same comments and bring that here, just making sure that they are matching the same. Like we see the same problems. We put the same comments. And but at the same time, we are spending three times. You are, yeah. More than what we expected. And kind of like, yeah, here in all the scenarios, like you said, different subs, well, okay, you have to do it. There's no way of getting around. There's no trying to fast track. I guess what you could do in terms of fast tracking is if the contractor could issue, say the door shop drawings, one, two, three, exactly the same moment, you could have. you know, honestly, by three monitors. And basically one monitor, two monitors, three monitors, have everything laid up there. And, you know, you're just going through line by line of like those doors, for example, check, check, check, check, check, And that's what I'm doing. Like we have one team managing the project. So we have the same people managing the things. like, instead of giving you the shop, like the door shop drawing, giving the like the door shop drawing to another person for the other site. we give all the door shop drawings to one person. Yes, it makes sense. Cause like, again, you're in that rhythm and everything. And you just, like I said, just do it at the same time. And then you're done. Speaking of like door shop drawings, and this is always good practice. Like this is what I find, I'm interested to hear. Do you review the door jam thickness? yeah. You do. I not only do that, that we send that out to a door specialist to review that as well. You are doing this, and I'm not talking the width, I'm talking the jam. everything. I mean, we we do very wide verify the jam, but we are not responsible for it. Okay. If you look at the contract, yeah, the general contractor has to do it. Exactly. And what I would know why I put this question out there is what I've done in the past is variable like straight up. We are not reviewing the door jams contract review on site coordination between structural drawings as builds. Or maybe we actually reviewed that in this case because we are working with modular construction. And considering a volumetric modular construction, sometimes you end up with double walls. Yeah, I'm very familiar. I think... So you have a special door thickness there. Yes. And then we have to capture that in the review. Otherwise, that becomes a big problem during construction. Yeah. No, no, absolutely. so I like for me, I the door drums, I've always basically put it back to the contract to review it because I don't know what they've done on site. Maybe they've changed, gone up a stud size or something or anything like that. Or structures come out and said, put an extra layer of, you know, she's half an inch. Exactly. And then how would you know that? Right. Unless you're knowing. That's why I always put that. I always say the jam thickness as I put it back to the contract. That's my kind of take. So, but again, if it's every practice has its own ways of doing it. So, but that was always one that was a caveat. I'm like, not gonna do it. Cause if they order the jam thickness wrong, then we're hooked. But I think kind of that's, that's a good segue into like kind of one of the talks that came today. And it was about modular design in school and CA and the ministry gave us a basically an insight to modular covering thoughts. did you know your takeaways from that session? I have to say. I have mixed opinions in my head, to be honest. Like high summary, what did you get before we get into that? So it's not a surprise to me, like since we are listening to those news for a few years now. Last year was a big change. was most of the projects, most of the renovations or constructions were based on volumetric prefabrication. And that's just because the ministry said we are only funding for those type of projects or not only funding, that was the main focus on their funding processes. So the school district, when applying for funds to anything, would be easier for them to get funded on a volumetric. So they ended up, most of the school district ended up doing modular additions to their schools. So if I was a facility manager and I go, okay, our district's growing crazy, I need a new school, that's not in the cards, so I can do an addition. And rather than getting a stick frame addition, that's where the ministry is saying, we're gonna give you a modular. So you're not gonna get a fixed building, you're gonna get, this is the only, if you want it, that's the option and the story. It's not only that, it's just the idea of having a fast track process to get funded for a fast track. project. Right. Okay. So, so now let's dive into your thoughts on that. like we see that, the whole country suffering with the big population and the grow population. It's like population growth is just huge. and we are not keeping up with the number of schools and the number of classrooms for the kids. and then they realized that that was the case. They started adding so many like portables on school grounds. Yeah. Okay. Solves the problem for one year. But honestly, would you like a kid to be in that portable for five years? I went, I actually did when I was in high school, I did buy portables and it was dark. was misty, musty, stank. was cold. of course, you know, let's take this. You do get the biofuel effect from going from the school. out in the rain and back into the portals. So, you know, there's some benefits. And we are in, like we are in BC, like in Canada. It rains a lot. Atmospheric rivers as we had last That's what you have. So in that case, knowing that the growth of population is just not stopping and you need more schools, what's the best way for making fast classrooms? And in their idea, which I agree, like a volumetric construction, allows you to do that. You can repeat design after design and do that. I'm not saying that I like the design, but if you just look after numbers, you can get it. However, the problem that I find is as an architect, I wish I could design something special for that school, for that site, for that community, and also for those kids that are using that space. And if I am using volumetric construction, I can't. because then I have to repeat again and again and again the same construction, the same modular, the same space, the same thing. I'm not saying that's the case. You can always find different designs and find solutions, but in a straightforward answer without thinking too much, that's what comes to mind. So I don't like it as an architect, but as a person and a taxpayer, it makes sense. Like I did modular for about four years and it was interesting. I learned a lot, right? Cause you wore multiple hats. Like you wore the architectural hat, you wore the structural hat, you wore the electrical hat, you wore the mechanical hat, cause you drew everything. two, it's not like there's no changes in the factory cause it's a nightmare, right? Everything's pre-designed and coordinated and then you go. So I guess the question is with all these new schools, these like, there's one thing with the modular firm, if you just say, I want a mod and it should be quicker. Yes, but by the way, I'm the mod firm and I've got six months of inventory that I've got to get, you know, released. So you're going to be six months down the road. And at that point, it would have been the same timeline if you stick frame. But if they start at the right at the moment, you say go, then yeah, it's definitely pump out, especially if you've got hundreds of these things, right. And that's what makes it. But I guess at the same time with the modular firms are not they're not making these like off the shelf. and then having them in the yard waiting for you to be like, I got a school, I'm gonna drop onto you and it's boom. Like that's what they did on the trailers back in the day, but this is becoming, it's not a trailer, it's modular, permanent design, right? And that's when the challenge becomes a problem. Like that's when the challenge starts. Like you want to design something special, but using the volumetric construction. So you start thinking about the process and even the design of the building in a way that allows that to happen. allowing a factory to produce or to have that process of having several units ready in a really well like a timeframe that makes sense to the project. And at the same time, our case, and I think that most of the architects are choosing that route we decided to have the envelope finished on site so that once you install the cladding, you don't have that feeling of a boxy building. And I agree. And so the results that the aesthetic will be like a regular project, a regular building. But you are only using the methodology of a volumetric prefabrication to make it faster. Right. Yeah. That makes sense to me. That's that's that's in like there is no discussion about that. This is this is what we need. This is something we can do. However. Not all the factories are ready for that. the industry doesn't seem to be ready for taking the expected fund from the BC, from the ministry. Because it seems that like, okay, the ministry says I have that amount of money. That's how many classrooms you can build. But if you look at the industry, if you look at the market, there isn't that many manufacturer that can take the job. Even if there was it, how many of them can do it properly with the quality that you were expecting? No, 100%. And yeah, at one point, there was a lot of modular firms because modular makes really sense for these camp housings. And when I was at BrickCo, these camps were crazy. These were a 2,000, 5,000 man camp, because they were building a dam or whatever the case is. And they would drop these up in the oil fields and all, sporadic. And the neat thing about the modular housing in that respect is, again, they were built for dorms, but these, you know, oil gas company A versus B, you know, you're going to design your camp one way and I'm going, well, I need workers, so I'm going to make it even better. I'm going to put a theater and I'm going to do this. I'm going to bring up like, so the finishes got nicer and it became this game. And those cases that made so much sense for modular, and especially with some of these more remote projects going up north or something like that. Hayate Gawai was one of, Bella Bella and other stuff like these made sense for these really remotes. Cause in the mod, you get it done in the factory, everything's done, you drop it on site and then it's minimal connections just to get it up and running. And either you go, you know, with an actual permit foundation or you just kind of can you put it on your stilts and that kind of, there's just, there's other options that you can go with it. But, but it's interesting that the ministry is putting pushing for modular in town. where you do have workers, that you do have access to materials and everything. It's not up in the middle of nowhere. Correct. And there is a big change in the way you understand the modular. It's like the module itself, because you are telling me that it's something that the factory designs, put them together, clad it, covers it, ship, install on site, and it's always the same, usually. Because then you are talking about lots of houses that are exactly the same. But now we are talking about something that is permanent and we want to have a special design for that specific classroom, for that specific school and the standards change. And then is the factory okay with changing their way of building stuff? Because they will have to change. So... it's now a custom building. It's not that like pre-designed element that they are like they know how to do from start to finish. Now they have to learn again. Right. And keep in mind for anyone that is doing modular thinking that they're going to push the envelope and go crazy. No, there is regulations on width for transportation. the minimum or the sorry, excuse me, the maximum width. is 14 foot six and that includes any projection. So if you've got like vents duct out or something like that, they take it on the scale, they laser it. And the moment you're over that 14 six, I think it's like 14 eight, but you give that two inches of spare and the height was something similar. I think it was 12 six. You can maybe go a little bit higher. Maybe 14 feet was the. I think that you can, you can do it like 13 or 14 feet high as high as the max. Yeah. It's kind of 14 by 14. Exactly. Yeah. And then the length, like I found 60, what 60 feet was a. Like that was kind of pushing it. 65, you started getting bounced like the back of the bus. But that's then it's not a regulation. It's about like how well you can manage the shipping. Exactly. And what trailers. And then there was some custom trailers you get it dropped and maybe get. But the reality is like you can go and especially if you're going up to these remote things, you would want to check your whole Google Earth road trip going up there and going, I can't get up there because there's one bridge that's this lower height. And now you've got to barge it around or maybe you're going down to Montana from Vancouver, BC and going all the way around it. There's ways of doing it. And if you do the double wides, it's doable, but you're doing it like- But you're not doing it BC double wide. You can't do it. And know exactly, cause the regulations on the road and they do it a lot in Calgary. Yeah, in Calgary they are allowed to do crazy things. It's double width, double height. They do whatever. They don't have any curves, like there is no like it's just straight highways. Exactly. Yeah. And that's probably what makes sense. Is it not going through the rock? Is it not going through tunnels? They're just going on an open plane and going for a drive. And the experience we had exactly was that. Like our manufacturer is in Alberta in Calgary. That's right. So for them to drive up to Surrey. Yeah, they've got to look at the roots and again time. And that's why again, going to the 1414 rules, you fit all the bills and then it's not as a big deal. But now you're restraining yourself to design because you have these junction walls as you noted earlier with the door jams, right? So you have to design that. And if you're trying to do a washroom or an open space, you do get limited with that. You're going to have posts because again, you can't totally have a whole wall missing because these modules rack. And so those are the other challenges I found. So many challenges. But then honestly, that's a lovely part. Yes. Like finding the solutions for those kinds of things. I love it. Like discussing with people, telling them like, what do you think? And bringing them to the discussion and like creating that relationship of trust. That's the best part. 100%. And the problem is when you get to construction and that trust goes away. So how does CA, yeah, there's a perfect segue into this. So how does CA work? Because now, correct me wrong, you're working with two contractors. You're working with a general contractor on site, and now you've got a modular firm as a contractor in a sense. Yeah, specifically this project, we had that special case where the client decided to hire the construction managers of the CM with a straight contract, and they also hired the fabricator with a different contract. So... Instead of putting the fabricator under the CM, they are working in parallel. And you have the consultants reviewing both works. So in summary, we have six contracts to manage. Right. you're getting our three, actually not six. The fabricator had one contract. So we have three contracts from the CM and one contract from the. manufacturer. So even though we have three projects, we have three contracts for administration. That's right. And, but the RFIs are still managed through one, two, three. four. Or four, yeah. Cause you have the fabricator. Yes. Yeah. This is fun falling along. Yeah. So I can't even imagine being your shoes with all this, but you guys got it. You're, you're, you're making it happen and you're working through it. So you're trying to find a new way of doing it. It's, it's crazy. drives us crazy, it takes us some nights, but at the end, we love it. We love what we do. 100%, no, I agree. that's kind of like what A4LE is all about, because it's all about school design and creating unique learning environments. And this was a challenge that was kind of, you know, that's been brought to it. But again, the reality is it's just another opportunity to... as another laborer basically, the other contractor bring another solution to the industry because yeah, the reality is, yeah, housing crisis we've already talked about, this gives you another set of helping hands to basically solve a problem. Is it going to solve a problem? No, but again, the more hands on deck, hopefully we can get the buildings that need to be in, because it's just everywhere. And I really do predict 2025 is going to be the year. I'm hearing it from, you know, I was down in Houston last week hearing the other, you know, architects and talking to them. And it sounds like a lot of things brewing and that this is, you know, whatever this little mini recession was, it's gone and things are looking amazing. Yeah. For everybody. I believe that you are totally right. I that we are getting to a really high construction period now. Yeah. Which poses some some challenges in my opinion, like. One of the problems that I faced with this project specifically is that the fabricator that is in Alberta, they told us that they knew about BC regulation and we expected that they also knew that. However, it's not what we saw. in reality, what we saw was that they didn't know much about the BC building code. Therefore, we had to guide them through how to execute many parts of the modular unit, for instance. when we have a general contractor in BC that is working on the site, we know that we can tell them, we can discuss about the building code, because most of the time they know the building code as much as we know. And then it's kind of a discussion that is easy to address, and you can point out problems in terms of envelope, for instance, much easier. because they know that we have so many more restrictions in BC than in Alberta for that. So the part five of the building code is way more restrictive in BC than in Alberta. And do with Modular, again, being when I was at the firm there, every area was different. So snow loads were all different, right? Because based on that, and now with... Rain screen, windows. screen and then also like climate zone A, B, C, et cetera, right? Like clone, think we're, yeah, this is climate zone three or is it four? Four. Four, that's right. So again, that just changes higher R values and you know, basically just got thicker walls and more packed insulation. that's again, outboard insulation. There's lots of options to get the ratings and it's wood too. there's not still. It's a wood frame. Yeah. It's a wood frame. So that's definitely a But beyond like discussing about building code and regulation like that. Yeah. was a challenge for us and I'm not sure if this is going to be all across all manufacturers, we found some, I don't know if it's a lack of knowledge or was just the way that we managed the project. I was so quick that like we kind of went through it and like we didn't realize, they didn't realize how much was needed in terms of effort to put on. shop drawings, even the process of RFIs, all the submittals, change orders, site instructions, all of that. It seemed that we knew what to do, but they didn't know exactly how the process worked. And we had to kind of teach them, or we had so many discussions about it. I wouldn't say that we taught them, but we had so many discussions about that because they said, we know how to do. but in reality, it was not the way we were expecting. So they're not. So in closing up the modular conversation, like, what do you expect for the future? What do you see? Is it going to change over the next 10, 20 years? You know, like, we're going to do this for a few years until government changes and they say, that's it, and I'll go back to that. Or what do you think? What's big? Again, crystal ball. What do you think? Where do you put the chips on the table? So I don't think that it's something that is temporary. I don't think it's temporary. I think that's something that I want to implement and that will be kept as part of the funding process. But they are not getting rid of the rest of the other options. They are still chasing regular stick frame construction. They are still allowing for those types of funding and they would focus on modular construction. And I'm not saying volumetric only, but they are also doing penalized. They are allowing for penalized construction as a method for additions. So you have a school, they need more classrooms. How do you do that really fast? How do you make a project that will turn in one year from design? to construction. And you're kind of somewhat doing that simultaneously in a sense. Like you're getting them prepped up, but you want to make sure, like I said, modular. When you say go, there is no changes after that word goes down because like I said, it's modular. It's in the factory. You can't just move a toilet from here to there because it doesn't work like that because it's all been framed accordingly. Everything's to the T. However, as an architect, we are still obliged to go to the factory and review everything. Thanks for bringing that up, because you're right. You've got to do that, because your liability is on it, because you're signing and sealing on this building. Yep. And even though they are talking about the production, we still have to verify all framing, all roofing. Yeah. Exactly. All the air barrier, vapor barrier, all the application, all of that. Yeah. And before they seal it, you've got to see it. Yes. And that's what the industry is not ready yet. And I believe that maybe in 10 to 20 years from now, Like everyone, we will understand this process and we will understand the requirements and even the regulation might change. don't know. Like I'm not saying that I like that has to change, but currently we are obliged to go to the factory to verify all of that as if that was being constructed on site. Which means that in a construction like ours, we are talking about like three schools, like 16 classrooms on one, eight, like 12 classrooms on another and... eight classrooms on the last one. Like, it's a lot of product, like it's a lot of modules for you to review. Yes. 100%. You're basically, you're to be essentially just hiring someone from your firm to live at the factory. have this guy in office, he has a laptop, he's going to be there and he's just, you know, just let him know he's going to kind of do some of the other work during the day. But you know, being available to go there and check, know. Ideally, if they do one good product at the first, like the first roll, like a mockup. Right. And it's perfect. But you still want to check the others on. I know it's a mockup, but you still got to check it. That's what saying. Like, would you trust 100 %? I don't know if I would trust, but yeah. And that's where I find that the regulation, there is room for changes to the regulation. Yeah. If you have a system, if you have a factory that has a really good QA, QC process, and they are CSA certified, which gives them the responsibility of controlling quality. They should be responsible for making sure that the product that they are delivering follows the shop drawings, for instance. Yeah, 100%. And if there is any difference, any discrepancy, shouldn't be the architect's responsibility, because it's a product. That's part two. Just like when you buy an iPad, you don't go there to verify what's going on inside. That's a point. Yeah, that's right. You did the prototype, you did the quality control, and then maybe, yes, you do the random checks just to make sure, pull it from the shelf. Yeah, no, this is good. This is working. That's what a client's expecting. It's just something that comes from the shelf. Yeah. But again, from an obligation of signing ceiling. How do you do it? And that's the question. Can you do that? And maybe that's where, again, your local architectural authority has to come in, like AIBC in this case, look at this and give you that leeway that you're not going to get called up on court or get green sheet or disciplinary notice is what it is now, right? And then say, you're not doing your job. Well, no, we reviewed the product. We did the shop drawing. Everything was good. And they had to do that 10 times. Well, no, you've got to go review it 10 times. So that is kind of the, maybe that is the part where it's gonna change. Exactly. And I don't know if I am being mistaken myself or just leading the conversation in the wrong way, but when you purchase a window, don't, I especially, I'm an architect as an architect. I can't, by the way, I'm not an architect, registered architect yet. I'll be an architect shortly. There you go. It's in the process. Good. But as an architect, you like you don't check every window, every window. Like you check the window installation. Yeah. But you do the mock up one, like you said, you do the mock up, make sure it's all good. You do a few window tests, water tests. Yeah. But you don't do all of them. Yeah. So you expect that if they executed one properly or a few that most of them would be. Like both, I know that we're gonna have a beauty envelope consultant review and at least the air barrier and all of that treatment. However, you don't check the frame of the window, the millions of the windows or the class of the windows or how that's silicon and within that, you don't ask them to open it. So it's a product that comes installed. So wouldn't you expect the same out of the modulars? Yeah, that was a good point. I think that's kind of a good thing to kind of, you know, stir on and, you know, for people to comment as well. And it'd be interesting to see how that works. from again, through the States and if they're in the same boat and that's something I'm going to really kind of, I am really enjoying this conversation because it definitely brings a whole new light is at what point do you have to sign seal off everything? Or like I said, is it a product? And that's the whole debate about it. And it makes sense. And if there's an issue. Who's responsible. Yeah. So I hope, I hope we will keep that conversation. Yeah. And I hope that the ministry will keep that conversation and I hope that the industry will change and evolve all together. Exactly. That's what we learning. That's what we need. Yeah. That'll be the conversation piece tonight when we go to the bar and have a good talk and you're gonna be like, look what we talked about. Look, we figured out a issue, a problem, a solution all through. you know, talking for 30 minutes about this. Just give some alcohol to us. Exactly. So, and speaking of that, we, you know, and then kind of wrap up the day. What we did is we went to Summer Hill Winery, a little shout out to them. Very beautiful place. You know, I've heard, I've seen the wine. I've had the wine before, but no idea when we get there, there's this giant pyramid, not, not the full size pyramid of, you know, Pyramid Giza, but my goodness. And what a treat. We got to go in it. And I don't know about you, but that energy, there was this energy and we that hands up. That's right. Don't touch them. That's right. Just feel it. So that was nice. So like kind of going into this, I must, I'm assuming the owner named Steve and everything and just down to earth guys saying going into this open mind, no negative energy and you will moment. And you know what? I was going up the stairs and I thought, okay, let's see what this is like. And we go up the stairs and we're in that space and you're right. It just like hits you. And he felt light and it was weird. Like he said, it wasn't going to be a spiritual kind of thing. And that's how it was. It was a different feeling. And then, yeah, you're right. We put the hands out and as we raised the people, like there was something, it was really crazy. I, know, but anyways, we'll take it for what it is. Stepping up that stairs and just looking at that stone wall. When we got that space and like, honestly, I was one of the first ones, I think that was the fourth one to get there. And I got in and I went straight in just looking at this whole space. When I started looking at the people arriving with us, it was so interesting that everyone stopped in a point that they could observe. Everyone looked at the same place. Everyone looked up to the peak. Everyone was just like, And that was amazing. It was very cool. And then we got some... Pretty cool school tour is gonna be tomorrow. Again, lots of 21st learning and then seeing, and again, it'd be interesting to get everyone's takes on it. One of them I was really involved from schematic right to the very end. So I'm excited to see, again, I always say these are thumb prints and that's the best part of the job. It truly is. Which by the way, I'm really happy that the people that are joining us in this event are not only architects. We have architects, we have engineers, have mechanical engineer, have... fabricators by the way. Yeah that's right it's all over and they were saying it's like one of the most diverse groups in the chapter for for A4L Ether which is very cool and I think that's you know and it's good because again everyone has their expertise everyone has the challenges and how we come together and just be better and I think that's that's ultimate like these groups and like CSI same thing that's just how can we be better and then and keep it and just get excited. Where can we find you? Where can our guests and our audience and everybody kind of go? Where can they find you? Where's your plug? You can find me at AuriDao, of course, from Monday to Friday. Good point. There we go. Careful what you wish for. Maybe you might get someone. You can also find me as Gustavo Matoso, G-U-S-T-A-V-O-M-A-T-O-S-O. So that's my full name, Gustavo Matoso at LinkedIn. Yeah. That's it. Very cool. Well, thanks for joining us. Absolute pleasure. But we can for sure give my contact information or more information in the description of the podcast. Yeah, we can load it up and there we go and do that. And now I'm excited for tomorrow and kind of wrap up this, you know, another event, this another conference and then we'll see where we'll come back and do it another year and see where all the, where everyone's kind of done and what we've taken away and we'll... talk modular, we'll talk CA, we'll talk AI and CA that we didn't get into tonight, but that's another discussion and I think it's pretty cool. So basically, yeah, till next time guys, architects keep designing. Of course, always. And contractors. Thanks for having me. Yes, thank you. Absolutely. It's been a pleasure and contractors keep building, making those plans a reality. Let's do it. See you on the next one, guys.