Comfort for Hard Times: What Paul Teaches Us with Alex Muir

In this episode of Exploring the Language of Scripture, Daniel Mikkelsen sits down with Alex Muir, Departmental Lecturer in New Testament at Mansfield College, Oxford, and author of Paul and Seneca within the Ancient Consolation Tradition, to uncover how Paul’s teachings on comfort and joy give hope in life’s hardest moments.

Together, they explore how Paul’s letters reflect his pastoral heart for suffering churches, offering hope, perseverance, and encouragement. From Greek terms like parakaleo to the contrast between Paul’s theology and Seneca’s Stoic philosophy, this episode provides deep insights into what it means to live as 'sorrowful yet always rejoicing.'

Whether you’re navigating personal struggles, curious about the richness of biblical Greek, or seeking practical ways to apply Paul’s wisdom, this conversation will deepen your understanding of Scripture and illustrate how Christ offers hope.

Don’t Miss the Next Episode:
Our next episode features a conversation with Ed Glenny on the Greek translation of the Old Testament, exploring the history, theology, and significance of the Septuagint for understanding Scripture.

Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction
01:58 - Meet Alex Muir: Scholar, Author, and Friend
03:49 - From Teen Greek Studies to Academic Competence
06:13 - Slowing Down with Greek: Seeing Scripture Anew
09:27 - Luke’s “Exodus”: A Theological Insight
12:01 - The New Exodus: Luke’s Story of Redemption
15:35 - A Paroxysm of Love: Hebrews’ Challenge to Christians
22:46 - What was Consolation in the Ancient World
27:17 - The Language of Consolation: Key Greek Terms
35:58 - Consolation in Paul: A Heart for the Churches
40:01 - Consolation Amid Affliction: Paul’s Churches in Need
45:51 - Bridging Worlds: Why Compare Paul and Seneca?
52:19 - Grief and Joy: Paul and Seneca on Suffering
59:00 - Living Consolation: Applying Paul’s Wisdom Today

Music Credits:
Music from #Uppbeat
https://uppbeat.io/t/all-good-folks/aspire

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Podcast Keywords:
biblical languages, New Testament, Old Testament, Christ, bible study,  Relationship with God, learn biblical languages, Biblical Theology, Christianity, Covenants, New covenant, old covenant, language acquisition, Biblical Greek, Biblical Hebrew.

Transcript

0:00

I mean, I think we can take heart from how refreshing the honest Paul is about his sufferings and emotions. I mean, I love... Hebrews chapter 10, verse 24, where the writer says, let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good deeds. And it's that bit sort of like provoking one another. mean, it's, I mean, it's quite an unusual Greek word there that it's like a... It brings us that joy so that we can say together with Paul, as sorrowful yet always rejoicing. Yeah, yeah, that's a really important verse... In Greek, there's not just one word that talks about consolation. Yeah. Yeah, it's now the time to maybe talk a little bit about παρακαλέω (parakaleo), the noun παράκλησις (paraklesis), the παράκλητος (parakletos). I mean, παρακαλέω (parakaleo) comes up a lot. And there are times where it... For Paul it's, yeah, this acceptance of the cosmos not yet being redeemed, that there is sin and suffering in the world and that there is a sort of a right grief that comes through that, that joy can still be derived in those situations. What in the world does consolation actually mean? Hey there and welcome back to another episode of Exploring the Language of Scripture. My name is Daniel Mikkelsen and I'm your host. And if you don't know who I am, I'm founder of NT Greek Tutoring, which is an online Greek tutoring company that hosts this podcast. I'm a PhD candidate at the University of Edinburgh, Christian Origins, and I've studied New Testament in Cambridge and theology in Copenhagen and Fjellhaug International University College in Copenhagen. This podcast exists to make gems from biblical studies accessible to everyday Christians and show how the biblical languages opens up scripture and hopefully this podcast will encourage you and bring you to greater joy over God and His Word and by that increasing your love for Christ and bring Him to people. That's what we hope that the podcast will do. And today I'm joined by my friend Alex Muir, who has a PhD from the University of in New Testament and Christian origins. He's currently an associate member of the theology department. Oxford and he was last year departmental lecturer in New Testament in Oxford as well. He did his undergraduate also in Oxford in Classics and French and then he did his masters and PhD in Edinburgh and he also published his dissertation in the prestigious Brill series, the Novum Testamentum Supplement called Paul and Seneca within the ancient constellation tradition, a topic We probably will talk a little bit more about today. Alex was also a member of my cohort, the same cohort, we were the same cohort under match, Matt Novenson And we have enjoyed many engaging coffees and talks over coffee, mean, and food and it's been a pleasure to have you on the podcast today, Alex. Great to be here, Daniel. Yeah, you're very welcome. Anything else you want to add about yourself before we jump into the first question? I mean, I suppose we could say that some of our friendship has been forged over a lot of sport and particularly cycling as well. I think that's important. Yeah, I think there quite a few biblical scholars out there who like running and cycling and I think you and I fall within that category as well. Yes, very much so. Yeah, anything else? Whoa, yeah, not not especially. It's a bit fresh here today in Oxford. a change of the seasons for sure. yeah, the sun is out in Edinburgh. Do you believe it? But then let's jump into it. So how did you get into biblical languages? Yeah, so I was very fortunate in terms of the education I received growing up that I was actually able to study a bit of Greek in my sort of early teenage years. I was able to do a GCSE here in England at the age of 15, 16. And I studied quite a bit of Latin alongside that and actually, yeah, it's a long story. I actually wanted to do a Greek A level but... it couldn't be timetabled, but they could timetable the Latin. So I went with that. Yeah. And, you know, then as you said, was, you know, accepted to do a course at Oxford in Classics and French, or I specialised more in Latin and French literature, but I read a lot of Greek stuff in translation as well. mean, Greek wasn't brilliant, obviously only having a GCSE. But yeah, but it was enough. But I think it was only really after undergraduate when I started a ministry apprenticeship in a church, where I began to think like, it'd be good to rework some of some of my Greek so I can read the New Testament a little more fluidly. I remember it was good. was quite a bad year for me in terms of running as well. mean, I was, you know, ran a lot at university, but I was injured a lot in that first year afterwards. So I channeled some of my energy and frustration into hammering through Wenham's sort of introduction, introducing Greek and sort of, yeah, got my Greek up to a reasonable level again. Yeah, well enough really to convince Edinburgh that was worth taking on for a Masters in biblical studies. And then I really met Matt Novenson and... The rest they say is history. So yeah, that's kind of how I got into it. Yeah. Meeting Matt, that's a special privilege. He is a great man as we know. Unfortunately, Princeton stole him. Yeah That's another story. It's very good. So, how have you experienced knowing the biblical languages? Probably Greek in particular as a New Testament scholar has opened up scripture for you. Yeah, I mean, yeah, now that there are passages in the New Testament with which I'm very familiar, but I mean, that's not always been the case. And it isn't the case for, for most of us. Yeah, I mean, there's parts of Acts, which you gave me, which if you were to give me, I'd, yeah, I'd struggle, I'd really have to slow down and concentrate. I think that's what having some Greek sort of enables you to do it, sort of slows you down in a right way to really think about every single word in the passage and how it all fits together. Yeah, and it's, yeah, I mean, it's so rare, isn't it, that there's, you know, for one Greek word in the New Testament, that there's one English word which directly corresponds to it. You know, we've quite often got a sort of a range of meanings. I think as you read more Greek and develop fluency in large vocabulary, then you become more adept at seeing what the range of meanings might be for a passage. And being able to compare different Bible translations, which maybe have slightly different theological takes or even biases, it just helps you to this is how I see it at least maybe assess some of those different translations and come at like yeah I mean I'm not gonna say a purer but maybe a clearer sense of what some of the different options might be for understanding a particular verse you know does that make any sense is that yeah Yeah, yeah, does that sort of, so you're not the first person to have said that, and I very much agree as well, that's slowing down and that. that things cannot be translated always 100 % accurately because all languages have like slight different, even though the words might most, so like the word is probably more or less the same, but as soon as the any more like substantial meaning is put into the context, then sometimes there are nuances that. that sometimes are very helpful to see. think that that's what I hear you say, is that those little bit deeper nuances. Okay, maybe actually I was reading my translation and I thought it was this, but then the Greek was like helping to say, maybe it was a little bit further to this side. Yeah. So. options more open, I think, and maybe sort of broadens you out. I mean, I quite like the amplified translation. I quite often direct students who've not done much Greek towards that. It's quite a good thing for thinking about some of the other options. Yeah. Yeah, I also don't sometimes feel like Greek is not just opening up things. It also sometimes closes off interpretations as well. Well, yeah, mean that is true. can sometimes track how a word's used in the Greek New Testament and say, yeah, it's actually really quite unlikely that it means X or Y in this thing. Yeah, that's a good point. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. So do you have any sort of like specific examples in mind where to like sort of like explain how this works? Or have you ever experienced that? yeah. Yeah, I mean, you turn to almost any New Testament passage and you can probably sort of find something. Yeah, I mean, I've had the benefit of maybe having a little bit of time to think about this. yeah, yeah, we may maybe start with more sort of simple example. I've been doing quite a lot of Greek teaching on Luke's gospel over the last year or so. It's the text that people of focus on in their first year of the theology course here, and in particular chapter nine, which includes the transfiguration scene. And there's this bit where Jesus, Moses and Elijah, according to Luke, are talking about Jesus's departure, it's quite often translated, but the Greek words actually like exodos, like an exodus, like and Yeah, and I think there's definitely an idea there of sort of a new Exodus that Jesus is going to accomplish. I mean, that's how the end of verse 31 ends talking about what he was going to fulfill or achieve in Jerusalem. So, yeah, I think it's quite cool that you have sort of the language of Exodus there. I think it's only Luke who uses that word at that point. Yeah. you're right. Like and Exodus meaning sort of like going out or just what do you think how it works there? Yeah, I it's, yeah, I mean, I think Luke's an incredibly clever and intentional writer of Scripture. And yeah, I mean, there's no coincidences there that Moses is with Jesus at that point. And then, you know, the language of Exodus is evokes and yeah, just, I mean, it's later in that chapter, isn't it, that Jesus starts out on the journey towards Jerusalem. It's a It's a really sort of key moment in the gospel and think the Greeks crafted maybe to reflect that. Yeah, yeah. So going out into or going into the going out from or towards the crucifixion or Yeah, Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I mean, it's certainly, yeah, going towards the cross, but then maybe even the journey continuing beyond that as well with the resurrection and ascension, seem to be sort of, yeah, the ascension in particular, like Luke's the evangelist who dwells the most on Jesus's ascension. Yeah, and, yeah, we actually was talking a lot, talking to Kendall about this and on the podcast, yeah, about how Luke acts, displayed Jesus ministry quite multifaceted and also how his ministry continues and acts, although he's not physically present, but he's there with his spirit. So. and continues into our day and works for us who believe in Christ. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, continuing story that the new Exodus continues, doesn't it? Yeah, exactly, Yeah, going out of this world into the kingdom of God. Hmm. Yeah, that's right, isn't it? then, in Luke 10, have the, yeah, and I think you have the 72 you were sent out as well. And that's an exciting bit. Yeah, that's, yeah, yeah, sending out, yeah, that's, yeah, coming of the kingdom. Hmm. Which is very present in Mark as well, but yeah, in a different, maybe more nuanced way in Luke Yeah, yeah, and I think, yeah, I mean, the blang of the kingdom of God definitely does dominate in Luke, it seems a bit more sort of concretized as an idea. I mean, I think I've become more convinced that Luke's probably, yeah, certainly later than Mark. I don't know about Matthew, but yeah, but there is this sort of, maybe we're here a little bit more for the long haul and sort of establishing the kingdom is part of that. Hmm. Yeah. that could be contentious for some. Yeah, but I think that there is a development of language in some ways, although the concept might have been present throughout. Maybe the language, or he decided to say, I think I want to clarify this language a little bit more than maybe Mark did. I think that that's a way to of maybe solve some of the contention that could be with some people. Hmm. is that there is a development of language or there's a, I think that the whole, it's obvious that each of the four gospels have a particular agenda. They want to tell the story from a particular angle of how they saw the event or how they collected the events. That's what Luke says here, collected the evidence. Yeah, so, yeah. Great. Yeah, I mean, that was sort of my sort of chief example. I mean, a more developed one is, I mean, it's quite a developed example. But in Hebrews chapter 10, I sometimes think about this, sort of have the, you get towards the end of the letter and it's more sort of about sort of like encouragement to the people who are being addressed there, whoever they are, perhaps people in Italy, although it's... a bit unclear. But but there's this wonderful bit in verse 24, where, where the writer says, let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good deeds. And it's that bit sort of like provoking one another. I mean, it's, it's quite an unusual Greek word there. It's like a paroxysmon of love, which I mean, it's really hard to sort of pick that up. I mean, yeah, I mean, You know, those, if you've got any listeners who are more medically inclined, perhaps they might sort of be familiar with the language of a paroxysm, like a fit or an outburst. But I think it's sort of like a really sort of intense love. mean, it's, I sometimes feel quite sort of challenged by that, sort of going into church and encouraging people with like a paroxysm of love. I think that's quite challenging when I'm sleepy on a Sunday morning and wandering into church and like, no, I want to love these people sort of with sort of real sort of emotional intensity. Yeah. Yeah. Or when it gets difficult or if people are bothering you because we are all people and even in God's kingdom there's sometimes we don't understand our brothers and sisters always. But we are still called to love them with that kind of love. Mmm. Mmm. Yeah, so it's definitely a challenge, but... It is a challenge, but yeah, but we've got got a good template from from Hebrews and yeah, and I love that sort of the paroxysm of love. Yeah, I don't really know any translations which have taken it in that way. But yeah. sort of like provoking each other to love each other. Provoking, provocative love maybe. yeah, yeah. I guess that's what it comes to mean really, doesn't it? Yeah, or how can we put it in language that sort of like exemplifies that is maybe Yeah, exemplifies that sort of... an all -embracing laugh or... Hmm. Yeah. Sort of like always vitalized and it's always, yeah. Yeah. It can't sort of be snuffed out. That's the way I mean, that's language is used, isn't it? Sort of don't quench the spirit. yeah. I mean, that's an unusual Greek verb that's used there that I think it's like spen, numnemi, but, we'll let that pass us by, but yeah. I think it's the only, yeah, the paroxysms, it might come up somewhere in acts. But yeah, it's a pretty rare word, but yeah. a few rare words in Hebrews. They sure are. Yeah. Yeah, so I've been reading through Hebrews recently, my quiet times. The vocabulary seems to challenge me a little bit here. You're not alone Daniel, but I think that's good for listeners to hear isn't it that even those of us who have spent quite a few years studying the Bible still find it hard to pick our way through passages in Hebrews and Acts. Hmm. Yeah. So there's definitely, but there's so much rich and I've not read Hebrews enough. And I was on the last episode was talking to George Guthrie about, about actually how Hebrews is constructed. And that seems to be that idea of of invigorating Christologies, like our view of Christ and our view of who he is and his mission is important for theology for an endurance. And then there is this sort of like terror joy over the, that comes up again and again in Hebrews that the people who rejected God's and did not enter into his kingdom. that's, they got a punishment for that. But the people who reject Christ were given even bigger punishment than them. But those who receive it will receive an even bigger blessing than those people who received the land originally. And that topic comes up again and again. First it is like the angels and then there's that and then the high priestess again and then it gets into the the latter chapters and it becomes an exhortation to love, for example. Hmm. Yeah. to trust and then all the examples of people who have trusted God in very difficult circumstances. Yeah, that list like culminates with Jesus, doesn't it? That's sort of like the whole setup for chapter 12. Yeah. And then an amazing encouragement to faith, like trust. have not like a faith that actually costs something. It talks about you have not strived in your faith that it cost blood. Yeah. Yeah, it must have been such a disorientating time for them as well. know, the people receiving that letter, particularly if Hebrews is after 70, which kind of inclined to think that it is. I've been reading a little bit into that lately. If you're wondering where the temple's gone and how you carry on sort of worshipping, but with Jesus as Messiah, it must have been a pretty sort destabilizing time. Hmm. Yeah. but then there are obviously like, yeah, there's a lot at stake at that early time in the Jesus movement or early Christianity. Yeah. Yeah, so there's definitely a, I didn't talk dating with George we were more like talking about the theology because that's what he did. yeah, that's a bit more sure. Yeah, exactly. And also it's what we have and it's what's important, first of all. Obviously, it can have an implication of how the first receivers of the letter react to it, depending on which particular time they received it. So it's not to be neglected. It was not Hebrews we were supposed to talk about today. Yes, indeed. We should spend more time in the church looking at Hebrews generally speaking. But as mentioned in the introduction, you've been looking quite a lot at consolation in the ancient world. what in the world does consolation actually mean? It's not a word that we use every day is it? Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Daniel. It's, yeah, it's... a, it's a good point. So what does consolation mean? And yeah, I think today it carries quite negative connotations, doesn't it? I mean, we were talking a bit at the top about sports and they quite often hear of a consolation prize. So if someone's not done very well in an event and they, yeah, or a consolation goal, maybe if the team are three nil down and they managed to get one back just for the end of time, it's sometimes a consolation. It's something sort of quite, quite weak. mean, it's sort of back end of a athletic season after the Olympics, you hear commentators saying, if someone does well, then it's a consolation if they've not managed to get a medal. So yeah, I mean, that's only sort of, yeah, you sometimes hear that people say, if it's any consolation, and sometimes it isn't much of a consolation. So yeah, but I, yeah, I mean, I do some, I think quite careful work in the, the, the start of the research that I've carried out and what, on how we might define consolation and yeah, I I try and sort of understand it as a more robust concept. And I think I see sort of three like distinct stages in what consolation might be generally. Hmm? not just in the New Testament, but generally. I mean, I think there is this like first phase of, yeah, just sympathy, being with someone in a situation that's difficult. Yeah, just that, you know, realization that something's gone wrong and sitting with someone in that. But then, I mean, I think there probably does come a time where that Yeah, sort of you can only sympathize so long and what once maybe circumstances have settled a little bit and you can move to like comforting someone and saying, okay, now's the time to take courage in this situation. Yeah, circumstances are difficult, but can we maybe consider things a little bit differently perhaps? And then the final stage is really sort of like encouraging someone to, yeah, I mean, maybe not entirely look beyond their suffering. Yeah, sort of maybe still be mindful that the things are difficult, to try to try and look past the source of grief to a more enduring form of joy. So I think consolation sort of involves all of those stages. It's, it is sort of that sort of sympathizing when something's gone wrong, but it is also trying to like broadly move someone away from something, know, sort of grief inducing to something sort of more joyful and hopeful. don't know if that makes it, I don't know how helpful that is, but. idea, is what you're saying. it tha the concept covers more than one idea, is that what you are saying? Yeah. mean, granted, I define it quite generously, I think. And yeah, I some people say, is that really a consolation? But it is. Yeah. And it's often, yeah, I often think of it as presence in absence as well. When, you know, maybe you yourself are absent from a situation from, from someone you can try and, be present with them in writing a letter that conveys some emotional goodwill and understanding or if someone is no longer around or if money has disappeared then yeah, trying to make it present again is, yeah, that thing or that object present again is I think the heart of what consolation is. Yeah, and also in Greek there's not just one word that talks about consolation, isn't that the case? Yeah. And I think that would be interesting for our listeners, won't it? Sorry for interrupting the episode. you're enjoying it and want to keep it at free, please consider supporting us by joining our supporter program. This helps us grow and get more guests on and also gives you some great benefits in return. Do check it out in the description below. Thank you and now back to the episode Yeah. And I think that would be interesting for our listeners, won't it? Yeah. It's now the time to maybe talk a little bit about sort of παρακαλέω (parakaleo), the Greek word, yeah, which, you know, comes up a lot in Paul but not exclusively in Paul. There's, yeah, I don't know how much to say or not to say, stop me if I go on too long. the point is to just to, yeah, I think it will be good to like explain a little bit what these like words mean because like παρακαλέω (parakaleo) have multiple range of translations and they've been translating many different ways in Paul, just in Paul, but also in the verb and the noun as well, παράκλησις (paraklesis) and παράκλητος(parakletos) as well, which is very prominent in John, for example. Yeah, I mean, that's it. mean, there are times where, yes, I mean, I mean, the verb is very common, the παρακαλέω(parakaleo). And then, yeah, I mean, the noun παράκλησις (paraklesis) is also, you know, comes up a little bit. And then, yeah, absolutely. I John has this notion of the, yeah, and John's gospel is the Holy Spirit, is the παράκλητος (parakletos). And maybe at the end, we might think about how to translate that. I've got, I've got, I've got a few ideas, which are hardly too... yeah. yeah, I mean, παρακαλέω (parakaleo) comes up a lot. And there are times where it... does just being like to encourage or, or, or exhort, or even just to like ask for something. I mean, I only learned this a couple of months ago when I was out in Greece, and I did some work on sort of modern Greek, and I'm keeping it up on Duolingo, actually. But when, when, when a Greek person says please, they say parakalo. which is still the, it's the same word which is, which is used. So they're saying like, please, I ask you. But then, yeah, I mean, and I've probably argued for this about as much as anyone has. And I've been, think rightly in a few places, critiqued for it by, yeah, reviewers. But yeah, I think there are certainly Yeah, a number of places where παρακαλέω (parakaleo) unmistakably means something like console, particularly when there is this context of grief, you've got to look at sort of the semantic field around a particular verb. there are times where there's the language of affliction or grief and παρακαλέω(parakaleo) comes in. I think it's quite reasonable there to translate it as something to do with consoling or comforting. Hmm. But yeah, but it can have this sort of broader, plainer sense. And sometimes it is clearly like exhorting someone when there isn't really a source of grief and it's, yeah, yeah. I Argyri could say that's the case at the end of Hebrews. I think people have often read it in that way that these are just sort of like universal encouragements to. Hmm. keep going in the faith. Yeah, but exaltation, way παρακαλέω (parakaleo) would do exaltation is not just about saying, there's something wrong with here, you have to do it in a different way. That's not exactly the meaning of the word, it? Or what do you say? No, yeah, that's a good point, actually. It's rare that there's rebuke in παρακαλέω (parakaleo) mean, there are other verbs in the New Testament which get used for sort of like reproaching someone or... Yeah, not that much in Paul occasionally. I mean, again, those are quite unusual words that only appear a handful of times in the New Testament. But yeah, think παρακαλέω (parakaleo) does tend to be a bit gentler, softer. Hmm. Yeah, even though we sometimes translate it exhort. Mm hmm. Yeah, but it all depends on context. And yeah, there are certainly places where, yeah, it does just straightforwardly mean to encourage someone. Yeah, I mean, it quite often happens that the sort of the turn of letters in poetry quite often have a sort of a more doctrinal first half and then a sort of a more sort of ethical outworking in the second half. I that's certainly true in Ephesians. I think you sort of have this. know, sort of all this theologizing about the cosmic Christ, but then you have sort of like some exhortation that comes from that and, and, you know, Paul is, it says like, when it's sort of, encourage or I exhort it's, yeah, I think sort of encouraging people to keep going in that, but, but it's rare there that there's sort of any grief at all or But there are some passages which we might think about later in the episode, I guess, it seems like there's a lot of grief there and so consolation, comforting is more appropriate. So just before we move on to the other question, wanted to say, are there other words than sort of like the παρακαλέω (parakaleo), παράκλησις (paraklesis), these kind of like words that convey some of the same ideas as well? Yeah, good point. Yeah, I mean... For consolation, another sort of sign that, yeah, that we are talking about consolation and not just sort of a broader sense of encouragement is is when, part of the moment we have language of... joy. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's an important term, I think. I mean, it comes up a lot in Philippians. But yeah, when, when there's sort of this balance of grief and joy in particular. Yeah. Yeah. generally a sign, I think, that something like consolation is a purpose of Paul and even other writers of the New Testament or, yeah, or even other sort of just ancient philosophers who wrote as well. Yeah, and the idea of reconciliation is also part of that idea. yeah, yeah, no, I there is something in that sense. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that the reconciliation part in 2 Corinthians 5 is somewhere where, to be honest, I need to do more work as to what, yeah, because there is a παρακαλέω (parakaleo) in there to do with God's reconciling work. yeah, I mean, I mean, I still think that there is sort of something. comforting and consoling about that. I've not done loads and loads of work on that passage, but yeah, but I think sort of, that sort of that broader sort of theology of God reconciling the world to himself in Jesus Christ is a great sort of form of hope and comfort when the going gets tough. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I've not done enough work on that either. but yeah. Maybe that's something that we should consider. Maybe. Yeah. So I need to work on on different elements in 2 Corinthians 5. yeah. So, but I think maybe briefly before we... we talk about maybe it's actually double question. is sort of what is, yeah, we already talked a little bit about consolation today and in antiquity, but also why consolation in Paul? Yeah, yeah, thanks, yeah, why consolation in Paul? Because sometimes it's not the first thing that comes to mind, is it, for people when they think about the Apostle Paul. I mean, a lot of people read him as quite self -assured, maybe quite an authoritative figure. And there are certainly times, particularly in Galatians in the first part of for 1 Corinthians where there are issues in the churches and Paul has to come down hard on issues when people are getting circumcised, you shouldn't be. yeah, it's hard to think of Paul as engaged in consolation in passages like that. But then, I think there is certainly enough evidence to build a case that that Paul is interested in this practice of consolation, particularly with churches that he's often established with, with whom he has a favorable relationship. I mean, they are often suffering for their faith in some way. And so they require some form of sort of consolation, or comfort to keep going. And then I think Paul himself, doesn't shy away from the hardships that he suffers on account of his being an apostle of Jesus Christ. When he talks one point interestingly about the anxiety for the churches and some of the, yeah, guess maybe even grief that that places upon him. yeah, I mean, I'm not... going to say that we should only understand Paul as a consoler, but I think that there is some quite good evidence across the letters for Paul being emotionally invested in the life of the new believers and I think in his own flourishing as well. Yeah, yeah, think that's a good point that he, there's more than one element. also did the need even God is, can be strict with us in a sense of saying this is how things are. And on the other hand, being very, yeah, seeking out his enemies to save his enemies, which is us. Yeah, so I think that. Yeah. God is, obviously is unchanging. But Paul wasn't, but because he was a human being like you and me. But what I think that what you just mentioned is basically reflecting the character of God. He's trying to do that in a way that he is saying there are things that are right or wrong. But then he's also reaching out to the Corinthians in particular and saying there is something here. that we need to get sorted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. which is part of that anxiety or worry or how we should translate that particular word. I forget the Greek term right now, but. Yes, it's μέριμνα (merimna). I mean, that comes up a bit. It's a worry, So, and it's a very interesting word because it can means like actual anxiety in certain contexts, but, but it can also just mean something you're worried about in other contexts. And in that particular passage in, in 2 Corinthians 11, it's a little bit interesting how he uses it in that context. So, but we already, we talked about that. and we already actually answered the next question I wanted to ask you about. What, what is there any need, why is there any need for Paul to, for consolation? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think there's more to say there. I mean, now might be a good time to think of, I mean, the classic Pauline passage to do with constellations, probably in one Thessalonians, chapter four, verses 13 to 18, when you have this whole discussion around believers who've died in Thessalonica. And there's even a possibility that the church in Thessalonica might have written to Paul for advice on this particular issue. And yeah, I mean, that's, that is like a go to passage for later Christian tradition for consolation at the the at the death of someone. But yeah, but it's that precise moment that Paul Yeah. I mean, he says that, you know, he writes them so that you, yeah. And it's really interesting like how you translate. I mean, this is like a definite sort of like, there's a real sort of like translation issue here, like, so that you may not grieve like, like those who have no hope. Is it Paul saying like, you absolutely can't grieve at all? Or is it so that you might not have to grieve like, like those who have no hope? I mean, there's quite a live debate still about sort of how much grief are people allowed to experience. mean, Paul definitely sort of engages in consolation there. And I mean, that's where he sort of talks about the vision of Christ coming at the final trumpet and everyone being with the Lord. Yeah. then at the end of that, passage he says sort of so, you know, παρακαλέω (paracaleo), like what one another. So sort of, yeah, console, comfort, exhort. Yeah, I mean, think it's all of those things. Yeah. Yeah. But it's also interesting that there is a, is it (ὡς) hos? isn't that's like λυπέω, don't lipo horse, so like those outside. So he's, he's saying how I've, think it like just from like reading the text, I feel like this is just, he is saying that we have a different type of, we grieve in a different way because we have this hope of resurrection. Yeah, yeah, I mean, think he does. Yeah, I mean, this is like, yeah, I mean, Paul's letters are quite sort of rhetorically focused and sharp and heightened sometimes. And this is a case, I think, where he maybe does draw a stronger contrast than maybe even intended. But yeah, but there is sort of a, yeah, a different form of grieving for those who are in Christ and who are awaiting the return of Christ compared to the many people who don't have that sort of sort of understanding or framework or understanding what might happen at the end. Hmm. Yeah. And they all seem to be very, even that particular passage, very, be very, yeah, grieved about, if they don't exactly, they've misunderstood Paul in some way or another. Yeah, I mean, it's certainly possible that they've developed a fair amount of love and faith, but yeah, but they may be a bit deficient on hope. There are people who argue for that. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people look at First Thessalonians and sees a group of people who are very faithful to the gospel and just, yeah, have just been through a really, really rough time. that there is a real sort of affliction, this, know, θλῖψις (thlipsis) is the Greek word there, which is really common in the New Testament. So, I mean, think they definitely need some comforting for, you know, what's been a horrendous time and when Paul's, yeah, mean, and then there's this sort of whole debate as to, yeah, does Paul think Jesus is coming back? yeah within his lifetime or very soon and so yeah it was like well if Jesus returned so imminent why are people dying and sort of that this is sort of Paul's attempt to deal with that I think yeah yeah, assuring them that they will be first, the people have died. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, they do not precede those of us who are still here. Yeah, just the whole focus in that passage and I think sort of a whole focus of consolation is sort of being with God, with Jesus and sort of presence in a time of absence. I'd come back to that whole emphasis is on all parties at some point being with the Lord. Hmm, exactly. Yeah. But why did you choose to compare in your work, compare Paul to a stoic like Seneca, this matter? yeah, we can. Yeah, let's talk a bit about Seneca at this point. I mean, I've come to see him as my, my friend, I think, that's got often how I describe my my friend Seneca and yeah, they're even sort of early Christians that yeah, I think it was Tertullian who said like Seneca who's who's often ours. He was sort of like, yeah, maybe got quite close to understanding. Hmm. know something about about God and Christ. Yeah, so but also in relation to like Kavin Rowe is sort of like comparison or not comparison. Yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah, no, exactly. So, yeah, there is this whole discussion as to whether you can compare Paul and Seneca on something like consolation. Because they, yeah, they do present two quite different narratives. I mean, mean, to be candid, the reason I chose to it was because there was a lot of Seneca material that Yeah, that I was able to read because I had done a reasonable amount of Latin and it seemed like quite a good sort of comparison between Paul and Seneca. There was sort of like a similar amount of information. There's this tradition that Paul and Seneca may even have known one another. They were certainly around at the same time. Yeah, and yeah, I think most people think that Stoicism was some form of stoicism, maybe with platonic elements, was the most popular philosophy among the people in the time of certainly Paul and Jesus in the first century. There is quite a lot of thinking about what virtue is and how one lives the good life that is derived from sort stoic and platonic maybe even Aristotelian thinking as well. So yeah, it seemed like a reasonable comparison to make. mean, Seneca writes like three treatises on consolation that are addressed to different people, which are all fascinating texts, I think, in their own rites. And then they're also probably what he's best known for is the epistles he writes, which are generally seen as reflections at the end of his life. Probably as he's about to die, because he's fallen out of favour with the Emperor Nero and it's pretty likely that the Paul got to Rome and died there as well. So yeah, it seemed like Yeah, there's, yeah, particularly between Philippians, if that is dated to, like later in Paul's life, when he is in Rome, that there's quite a fruitful comparison to make there between, yeah, Philippians and the epistles. Although, I mean, I know a lot of people would put Philippians in the middle of Paul's life, or the middle of his sort of ministry may be written from Ephesus. There was some quite good arguments for that as well. Yeah. but what do you think that the limits are between? Because as already mentioned, like Kavin Rowe is very strongly argued against comparing at all. But what do you think that the limits are between? Because I think if you actually read Kavin's work, he sort of end up comparing in some way or another. Yeah. I think it would be interesting, especially because that's something you worked a lot on. So what do you think that some of the limits are? Yeah, I mean, in the book, I mean, it's kind of slightly hidden away in a footnote towards the end. But yeah, because I mean, there is a part of me which agrees with Kavin Rowe's work on The One True Life and the comparison he draws between Stoic and early Christian writers. I mean, he does some very clever work, which is a bit beyond me, I'm totally honest, from a more sort of philosophical me too, so. perspective. Yeah, but so yeah, I I sympathise with the idea that Yeah, that if you don't identify as a stoic, then it's hard to sort of get in the mindset of, what is consolation for a stoic? Yeah, I and I tried my best to sort of, yeah, see Seneca as a friend. mean, Kavin Rowe in his later work has sort of said like, yeah, and I tried to befriend the stoics, but... But yeah, but I couldn't understand them, which I get. And yeah, I I certainly identify as more of a Paulinist because, mean, I happen to... know, think, think Paul was right about Jesus as divine in some way. Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, but there's still no guarantee that I've notarically understood Paul at every single turn. yeah, but I'm certainly more sympathetic towards Paul's narrative of consolation and think that it is still a meaningful vision for today. Whereas, yeah, I don't identify as a stoic. And so it can be hard to Yeah, yeah. I mean, I did my best to try and understand Seneca on his own terms, but I think there's probably even more of a chance that I've misunderstood him and that the comparison could be a bit uneven there. that maybe you actually want me to bring me to the next question is sort of how and where Paul and Seneca are most similar because I think the obvious they're very different in the conclusions to like the meaning of life, for example, like Paul has a much more hopeful outlook on the end than Seneca has because He believes that Christ has dealt with our ultimate problem, sin, and there is a resurrection coming. Where Seneca talks a lot about death, and there's no hope beyond death. Yeah, I mean, for Seneca, it's all about this life deriving all the possible virtue you can in this life. Yeah, but I mean, but yeah, that's precisely where Paul and Seneca differ is in that they have different eschatologies. I Paul thinks Jesus is coming back, you know, and Seneca thinks that there'll be some fiery catastrophe and then the world will renew itself. So yeah, so I mean, there's Yeah, I mean, I think Seneca is actually quite sort of hopeful in some respects, but he's not sort of hopeful about the continuation of the cosmos and things. Yeah, but I mean, I think they're both committed to like a practice of consolation where people are moved from a source of grief to joy, although, you know, that comes from different sources ultimately. Yeah, I mean, we talked a bit, I think, in Hebrews about some examples as well. And Seneca and Paul both, I think, like use a lot of examples as to, yeah, to describe, you know, sort of showcase people who have dealt with adversity well. I mean, Seneca sort of quite often refers to very stoics who've done well in exile or faced with difficult circumstances, particularly in Philippians as well. think there's some quite interesting sort of understandings of exemplar or examples in the letter. I particularly Jesus Christ himself. I certainly read a lot of chapter two as Jesus as the example of someone who underwent, you know, a great deal of suffering, but sort of on a voluntary basis. But then he, yeah, I Jesus is different because he's, he's the Lord Jesus Christ, so he receives glory. And there is sort of something a bit consolatory about that. Hmm. But yeah, but Jesus is certainly an example of someone who undergoes suffering and yeah, and then comes out triumphantly on the other side. And I think that's exemplary for the believers in Philippi who are going through difficult circumstances. Hmm. Yeah, and that's, yeah, that's, that's a hope. Yeah, yeah, I've lots of questions. I don't know if we can have them all this time. Yeah, we did. It's good discussion. I'm enjoying it. definitely. I think it would be interesting too, because, and this is one thing we have discussed before as well, that, well, it's the relationship of joy and suffering for Paul and how is that different to like Seneca or the Stoics in general. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure I've got loads more to say on that other than it's that sort of that temporal framework, isn't it? That? Yeah, I think Seneca and Stoics and yeah, I think even other philosophies in the ancient world did see suffering as like not not totally an evil something to yeah, to be navigated in the present and that there were that there was sort of joy to be derived in suffering. Yeah, but then, yeah, and I think Paul tries to direct his, his readers, hearers of letters to joy in the present as well. You know, he's, you know, so often in Philippians, you know, it's a be joyfully in the Lord is, yeah, but then even greater joy will come at the return of Jesus at the eschaton. That's where the frameworks really are quite different, I think. Yeah, yeah. I personally think that there is also the element of joy and grief that for Paul, they can coexist, but for the Stoics, it cannot. It's very difficult to reconcile for the Stoics because grief is the worst possible feeling that you can have because you're out of control. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, joy is something which is, yeah, on the Stoic system, they have these four passions and grief is, is one of them. But then they have, it's often overlooked that the Stoics do actually have some good emotions. They weren't sort of like totally apathetic that you couldn't feel anything like joy was something that the Stoics were meant to feel... I think, in, in some way. So it is one of the three. like positive emotions alongside this desire and caution as well. Yeah, that's right that they can't coexist. yeah, but yeah, I think that's right maybe for Paul, it's, yeah, this acceptance of, you know, the cosmos not yet being redeemed, that there is sin and suffering in the world and that they're is a sort of a right grief that comes through that, but that joy can still be derived in those situations. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. yeah, I think we have reached a place where we're in the podcast where I ask my question, how can we consider the matters of consolation in Paul as an application for everyday life for the listeners and viewers for us as Christians? How can we take this and apply it to our lives in a practical way? yeah, no great important question. Yeah, one I found. Yeah, I still ask myself a lot. Yeah, I mean, I hope that maybe I've given a bit of an insight into how we can understand Paul's letters and know, yeah, we've begun to talk a bit about other parts of the New Testament as well in the Gospel of John and Hebrews as sort of consoling in some way. I mean, I think we can take heart from how refreshingly honest Paul is about his sufferings and emotions. I mean, I love the bit in 2 Corinthians 6 where he talks... about him like opening up, widening his heart. think that's, yeah, and I think it's right to feel on Paul's vision and that has know, important implications today. Yeah, and then I think, like Paul can still look to sort of the ultimate consolation of citizenship being in heaven and still awaiting that the return of Jesus Christ. And yeah, we long for that day. And yeah, that there is so much to grieve in this life, but we can Yeah, do so patiently and sort of, yeah, with that vision, I think of our citizenship ultimately being in heaven rather than on earth where things can be so mixed. Yeah, exactly. The citizenship in new creation. And the hope of restoration that Paul seems to be very focused on as well, that the ideas of that sin will be dealt with, not that it has already been dealt with on the cross, but it will be dealt with conclusively when Jesus returns. Whenever that will be, it will be dealt with conclusively. Yeah, it will be a once and for all. But yeah, but at the same time, I that's where I think we need to look beyond Paul as well. Yeah, I mean, I've done a bit more. Yeah, I mean, since then, I've tried to work a bit on Hebrews and James. And I love the bit in Hebrews about, you know, Jesus, like, living to intercede for us that Jesus hasn't abandoned us, but that he is the presence in heaven. in that citizenship, the πολίτευμα (politeuma) in heaven, that is his place and he is not absent but interceding for us. Yeah, I mean, just really that, yeah, that's all I want to stress really, that Jesus is not absent but present in heaven and interceding for us. Hmm. Yeah, and in that same way, he's present with us and that there is comfort when the world is running amok, you anyways, and that thing seems out of control, that we're actually not citizens of this world. That's right. Yeah, and we've been sent the παράκλητος (Parakletos). I said I might sort of offer a translation of what the... I mean, that's obviously from John, not from Paul or Hebrews. But I think we can even make a case that the Holy Spirit is a consoler, someone who sort of represents the absent Jesus and helps us in grief, really. Yeah, that was probably a, yeah. I don't know if John and Paul worked independently of one another or not, but. Hmm, yeah, but I think that they both probably would agree that that is what the Holy Spirit does to us, is that he comes to us and brings us comfort in difficult situations. And that he brings us that joy so that we can say together with Paul, as sorrowful yet always rejoicing. Yeah, yeah, that's a really important verse... isn't it? In 2 Corinthians 6, yeah. Yeah, that's definitely where you're right, that grief and joy can coexist and that, we shouldn't... be surprised we find ourselves in both modes in this life. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a good way to end. So thank you for joining me, Alex. it. Pleasure, Daniel. All the best. yeah, let's all keep going with our Greek. We've all still got, yeah, as Paul says in Philippians 3, I don't consider myself to have sort of completed everything or to be perfect. And that's true of Greek as well, I think. Yes, yeah. And Christ was perfect for us. that's it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, thank you for joining me and God bless you too. Thank you. Bye. But before you go, if you enjoyed this podcast and you want more people to see it, please subscribe and leave a like. It really helps us create more episodes like this one. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Have a great day and I'll see you in the next one