New Creation: A Key to John’s Gospel | Paulus de Jong

In this episode of Exploring the Language of Scripture, Daniel Mikkelsen sits down with Paulus de Jong to explore how John’s Gospel reimagines the creation narrative and introduces the theme of new creation. Together, they reveal how Jesus’ ministry—through his healing miracles, the crown of thorns that echoes Genesis’ account of disobedience, and his portrayal as the new tabernacle—illustrates the restoration of a broken creation.

They discuss how the Greek language deepens our understanding of Scripture and uncover rich parallels between Genesis, Exodus, and the passion narrative. From the dramatic healing of a man who had been unable to walk for decades to the striking symbolism of the crown of thorns (akanta), every element points to the transformative power of Jesus’ mission. Whether you’re a student of biblical languages, a theology enthusiast, or seeking practical ways to experience restoration in your life, this conversation offers fresh insights into what it means to live as a new creation in Christ.

⚠ Audio Disclaimer: Some parts of this episode contain restored audio due to clipping issues. We’ve done our best to improve clarity—thank you for your understanding.

Don’t Miss the Next Episode:
Our next conversation features Denis Salgado as we dive into the usefulness of the Greek lectionaries.

Chapters:
00:00 – Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
01:34 – Introducing Paulus de Jong
03:54 – Journey into Biblical Languages
06:47 – The Impact of Greek on Understanding Scripture
09:08 – Exploring John's Gospel: Themes and Interests
13:42 – Why Paulus Studies John's Gospel
16:03 – What Kind Gospel is John?
22:32 – New Creation and Restoration of Creation in John
28:32 – New Creation in John Step 1 (Jesus' Miracles)
31:45 – New Creation in John Step 2 (the Passion Narrative)
34:18 – The Symbolism of Key Miraculous Signs in John's Gospel
37:12 – The Significance of the Crown of Thorns
38:38 – Eschatological Resurrection and New Creation
42:04 – The Connection Between Exodus and New Creation
46:33 – Jesus as the New Tabernacle
51:07 – Unique Aspects of New Creation in John's Gospel
54:45 – Abiding in Jesus and New Creation
57:27 – Applying New Creation in Everyday Life

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Music Credits:
Music from #Uppbeat

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Podcast Keywords:
biblical languages, New Testament, Old Testament, Christ, bible study,  Relationship with God, learn biblical languages, Biblical Theology, Christianity, Covenants, New covenant, old covenant, language acquisition, Biblical Greek, Biblical Hebrew.

Transcript

0:00

think it would be hard not to have an interest in new creation, John, because of how the gospel starts, of course, know, in the beginning. Where do you see that new creation is present in John? So more like explicitly maybe or how does the pieces fit together? Well, there a few steps to this and I hope that once we've gone through these steps, I will have answered all your questions and even the small objections... If we look at the passion narrative, we see that Jesus after a life of obedience, He is given a crown of thorns, akhanta, which is the same words as Genesis 3, the Septuagint uses to describe the thorns that come up out of the ground because of man's disobedience... You can sort of see some of the signs that Jesus does as really examples of how Jesus brings about restoration to broken creation. He brings light where there is death. He brings light where there is darkness. But then, I think the next step is probably the most convincing one... Welcome back to another episode of Exploring Your Language of Scripture, brought to you by NT Greek Tutoring, a place for personalised Greek learning in your spare time. I'm your host, Daniel Mikkelsen the founder of NT Greek Tutoring and a PhD candidate in the New Testament at the University of Edinburgh. And this podcast exists to make gems from biblical studies accessible to everyday Christians and show how the biblical languages opens up Scripture. And our aim is to increase your love for God and His Word so that we can become more joyful witnesses for His mission. And today I am delighted to be joined by Paulus de Jong who teaches at Windesheim university in Zwolle I think that's in the Netherlands. Yeah, yeah, it's Zwolle Yes, Zwolle, and the Dutch Baptist seminary in Amsterdam. Paulus did his PhD at University of St. Andrews, working on the Gospel of John. He has published a few scholarly articles as well on John. And I had the pleasure of meeting him at the Tendul Fellowship Conference last year, where we had lots of interesting conversations and one of the reasons why I brought him on today as well. And Paulus has an interest in new creation in John's Gospels. if you like me are interested in what that is all about. And when John talks about these things, then stick around to the end and Paulus will also share with us an application of this in the end of the podcast. But Paulus, it's a great honor to have you on the podcast. Welcome here. Daniel, yeah, it's an honor for me to be invited. So thanks for the opportunity. Yeah, looking forward to it. Maybe just to add one final thing is that I also teach a course in John's Gospel at WTC. So if anyone here who listens is ever interested in studying John in a bit more depth, that's always an opportunity. Definitely. Yeah. And my question was, there was anything else to add, but apart from that, that's fine. That's fine. Well, maybe it's good to add that at the moment, if people are wondering about my background, sort of life is a bit chaotic for us at the moment because we just moved back from Scotland to the Netherlands. And, you know, we three young kids and it's hectic family life. But then also we're sort of in a temporary house at the moment, waiting for a more permanent house. And that more permanent house that is getting ready, but it doesn't have a kitchen. So behind that curtain behind me is sort of a kitchen. Whereas most scholars have bookshelves behind them. I'm sort of at the stage of life where I have appliances behind me. Hopefully a year from now or so there will be bookshelves again, and life will be a bit more normal. But for now, this is Yeah, it's very good. Yeah, we could just pretend it was cuneiform and no one would... Yeah, apart from people who read cuneiform, they will not. Yeah two or three, they can comment, you know, below the podcast. See what is written here. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, but let's jump into it then. So how did you get into studying the biblical languages? Well, actually, various stages. my parents had a friend who was a tutor in Hebrew. So even when I sort of was in the end of primary school, I learned a little bit of Hebrew, sort of learned the Hebrew alphabet and sort of had already developed an interest in biblical languages. Then in high school, I sort of went to a In the Netherlands, can still sort of choose classical languages as part of your high school. So I had Latin and Greek. And I also learned a little bit of Hebrew through that tutor during high school. So coming out of high school, I already sort of was quite well trained in Greek and Latin, a little bit in Hebrew. In undergraduates, took several courses in biblical languages. And then in St. Andrews, I did an MLitt in biblical languages and literature. that's, think, I would say that's when I started to feel really comfortable in learning, in reading biblical languages. It took a while, sort of gradually step by step, but yeah, that interest was there from a young age. That's definitely the case. Yeah, very cool. So, so you actually learned Greek when you were a teenager. Yeah, yeah, it was interesting because, you know, the Latin class was a bit more popular. We had about 20 students there, but the Greek class only had two people in them. So I was one of two. And you have it for five years. So it's quite a long time and three hours a week or so. So it was quite intense. But, you know, it was in that sense also very I felt very privileged to have that opportunity. And just as part of the regular school system in the Netherlands, so nothing to do with private schools or anything like in the UK concept doesn't really exist in the Netherlands. Yeah, so yeah, I'm glad government sort of gave us that opportunity. Parents convinced me as well. she take it. Yeah, that's that's good. Yeah, I think they used to be like, so I think the way Peter Williams learned Greek was actually similar kind of system. So but they were they used to be called grammar schools, but so it's a but I don't know if they exist anymore, or how popular they are. So but yeah, it's definitely on the on the retreat in the in the Danish system. So it used to be that you could do in your sixth form equivalence or sixth form or high school. You could do Greek and Latin if you wanted to. But you can now, it's like very few places in Denmark you can do it. Yeah, no, the Netherlands, think, yeah, most high schools will still offer Latin. Greek is not offered everywhere anymore. But if you don't have to look very far to find a high school that offers Greek. That's cool. How have experienced Greek for opening up the Bible for you? Or biblical languages in particular? Yeah, yeah, I think it it has helped me, you know, experience the Bible in a new way, in that, of course, one of the things it does, it really slows you down as you engage with scripture, because one of the sort of dangers in reading or hearing scripture is that we feel so familiar with the language in the translation that we we read scripture in that we just don't notice details anymore. or assume that we know what the text says and don't even hear it anymore when the text says something different. It's been, it has opened up scripture for me in a way just by slowing me down, by forcing me to sort of read every word. And I think that is something you cannot quite underestimate. Another way it has helped me, it has opened up scripture for me is that it helps me to see connections between texts more clearly because you sort of see a similar word appearing in different passages, you see tons in the text that you cannot see in a translation. So yeah, those are some of the ways in which knowing biblical language has opened up scripture for me. Yeah, and maybe you can like dive into some of these like details in it. Yeah. Maybe mention a couple of examples. Yeah, yeah, no, totally. So, I mean, one of the obvious examples, I have my readers Greek Bible and Hebrew Bible here with me. But for example, in John 3.3, one of, you know, very famous verse, you want me to read in Greek or is it? Yeah, yeah, it's ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, ἐὰν μή τις γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν, οὐ δύναται ἰδεῖν τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ θεοῦ so it's Jesus saying to Nicodemus well truly truly I say to you if anyone isn't born from above or born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God. And the Greek word there, ἄνωθεν, is a word that can be translated in different ways. It's sort of ambiguous. It can mean from above, but it can also mean again. And so for a lot of us, that's a familiar verse. And we think of, know, Christians being born again, that sort of category, whereas actually the Greek is a bit more ambiguous because you could translate it as born from above, which seems to the primary way that Jesus intends to use that word because he then expends that it means being born, you know, from the spirit. Whereas, the theme is in his response, sort of takes it to be born again, because he then, you know, questions Jesus, how can anyone be born again? You know, can you go back into the womb and come out at the time? So it seems that what is happening is sort of a misunderstanding about the dual meaning of this word. in that conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. Nicodemus taking it to mean again, which it can mean, but Jesus actually pointing him to the fact that what he means by it is, you you need to be born from above, you need to be born by the Spirit. And just a simple ambiguity like that in Greek is something that you cannot really see in translation, because translations have to choose between again or from above. But in Greek you can see that, well, actually the word carries both meanings and it actually helps to know both meanings if you want to follow the misunderstanding that's going on in the conversation. Yeah, so that would be one example. Don't know if you want me to mention another example. Yeah, do. please Yeah, I can briefly mention so continuing in John's gospel So I'll talk about the theme of new creation in John's gospel in more detail later in this podcast, but you know one one of those phrases that is actually It is just a greek idiom But in in John 20 Τῇ δὲ μιᾷ τῶν σαββάτων is a phrase that is used there and you know in our English translations it is translated as on the first day of the week Mary of Magdalene and then and so on and so forth. But the and it is a Greek idiom that does mean the first day of the week so don't get me wrong but truly it reads you know on the first of the Sabbaths and And if you've been tracing with the theme of new creation in John, it sort of does add another interesting layer of meaning to that phrase, I would say. When you read it in Greek and when you've been tracking with that theme of new creation in John, which we'll explore in a bit more detail soon, reading that phrase hits you in a different way. It's like, yeah, of course it does mean first day of the week. And it also, you know, the first of the Sabbaths. And if you've sort of seen in the passion narrative that when Jesus has said it is finished and then, you know, there's this great Sabbath that sort of begins in John's Gospel. yeah, that phrase perhaps carries a bit more meaning than just simply a mark of time. That was interesting. But that is also actually tapping into more exegetical. That's not just language, that's also sort of making sure that we understand that the words are within its context. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, but I do think, you only see that because in an English translation, it is simply, you know, the first day of the week. So you don't even have the opportunity to see, you know, that phrase in Greek, mentions the Sabbath there, which is exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And even if you looked it up in an interlinear, you wouldn't, you wouldn't get that, notion either. So, so that's why we, we, we encourage people here to, to go beyond the study of an interlinear because, because that, yeah, prevents us from making grammatical and exegetical mistakes. But also, there are more, more goodies to be had to. Yeah, there are so many more goodies. mean, because these are just two examples that, you know, I mentioned from John's Gospel, but on every page of the Greek New Testament or Hebrew Old Testament, you can find goodies like that, I think. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for for for for bringing those examples to light. But maybe we should transcend, transcend, and now we can actually speak. Transition. Yeah. Yeah, transition into like a topic of today. the center. So you you have an interest in in John's gospel. Why did you study John rather than than another gospel or other part of the New Testament. Well, I think for one thing, because while John just always captured my imagination because it's so different from the other gospels, you know, so whether it is the signs that Jesus performs or the I am sayings that Jesus expands on, you know, I just always found those quite beautiful. So John always had a special place in my in my heart. And but I also think one way I remember I was quite involved in evangelism at various stages in my teenage years. And one of the things about John's gospel is that it has both simplicity and depth. if you give someone who has never encountered the Bible a gospel, probably, well, in a lot of cases, people would give them the gospel of John, because it seems that the language has some simplicity about it. speaks in, you know, metaphors that are very common to human experience like life and light and death and darkness on the other side. So it speaks in quite common categories, but at the same time it has an enormous depth to it. So even though it might be the gospel gift to someone, the first gospel you give to someone who hasn't encountered much of the Bible yet. It is also a gospel that I've studied for many years now, but keep studying and keep finding new hidden treasures. So yeah, so that's why I'm fascinated by John. Yeah, I think that there lots of people like lots of Christians that are fascinated by John because of that. Yeah. Yeah, I think my wife would say more personal, like, in one way. But also, I don't know philosophical and have the wrong connotations, but more than it's that it is, yeah, seems to be like deep reflection in many ways of on who Jesus is. And in a way that the synoptics, so the other three gospels depict. Yeah. I like that idea of the category philosophical. Yeah, I think that's a good way also. I mean, of course, with the poem about the Logos at the beginning of John's Gospel, that sets the tone, And perhaps more personal in a way that it is a very sort of, you know, decide here and now. about, know, what do you think of Jesus? It sort of puts the question in your face, so to speak, the gospel. So in that sense, it becomes very personal very quickly. Yeah. Yeah. So so like that, the reason why I'm hesitant with the philosophy is because it has like both in the ancient world, it had different connotations. And we also philosophy is very detached from human life today, which is not how people in the ancient world started about study philosophy, but also I have a problem with reading john to philosophical. Because I don't think that he belongs to the tradition of like, ancient philosophers in the same way as some people might want. Yeah, mean, there are, course, within John's scholarship, there are scholars that tend to read John more in conversation with or against the background of various ancient philosophies. And there are scholars that gravitate more towards reading John as part of sort of the broad variety of, wide variety of Second Temple Judaism. I'm not sure it is an either or for me. would want to sort of keep them together but I do get very nervous when people detach John from its Jewish background, its Jewish context and so only are reading it against and with ancient Greco-Roman philosophies. Yeah, yeah. Or just general paganism. think that's also Yeah. Yeah. I feel like if you detach it from what it wants to be basically talking about the Jewish Messiah, then I think you you missed the point that it's trying to do your the basic point is wanting to be conveyed is that the Jewish Messiah has come. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, believe that you have life in his name, like the purpose statement in John 20 31. Yeah. So yeah, you cannot detach John from its Jewish context. That would be, I think, a mistake. Yeah. But it also means that he's not ignorant about the paganism that he's writing into. He is writing in Greek, first of all. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, you know, the concept of the Logos is, of course, a widely known concept within ancient Greco-Roman philosophies, like for the Stoics, you know, for Neoplatonists, or as you can go, you could go on. I quite like the arguments, and this has been made by, I'm blanking on the name now. There was a good sort of PhD thesis published. early 2000s in UK. But the argument there was that John is using the concept of the logos in a similar way that Paul is using the idea of the unknown God in in Acts 17. So beginning with a concept that would be broadly known to, you know, a wide audience and then specifying it to be about Jesus. less using a concept that is widely known and therefore appealing to a wide audience. So I quite like that idea of the lock functions. Yeah, that seems also to me like a more like balanced approach than than than other scholars would have have done it. So my compatriot Troels Engberg-Pedersen, I think he gets too detached in in reading john as a philosopher, which I think is yeah, is anachronistic, essentially. His monograph on John is certainly interesting, with all the ambiguities that that term can entail in English. Yeah, I can really I really can't tell much about his his actual John scholarship. I'm more familiar with his Paul scholarship. And now would would be more. Yeah, I think I have a more educated explanation what I what what are problems or what good things he might bring in that approach, then I can I can talk about in in his john scholarship. Yeah, I would say for his John scholarship, you know, we once studied his monograph in a John class in St. Andrews. And to, you know, give him credit, he does point out some really excellent things within John's Gospel. So even if if you do not agree with his basic thesis or approach, which I don't, the monograph still holds some some good insights into reading John's Gospel. Yeah. Yeah, I also think that he, although I largely disagree with his view on resurrection, he does get one thing very right that a lot of people don't. And that is that in 1 Corinthians 15, it is the same body that is sown that is raised. And then I disagree with him all basically everything else in regards to it. Yeah But but but I think he really, really understands that that it has to be the same body. So the tomb cannot be cannot be that cannot be a body in the tomb. It's impossible to Paul And he really, really gets that right. Then he gets the materiality. think I think he gets that gets that wrong. But that is a conversation for another day. Good, well, yeah, you need to educate me on his readings of Paul. Yeah, so yeah, so that that will that'll be another time so but then Then why is it that you have interest in in new creation and John? Yeah, well, on the one hand, I think it would be hard not to have an interest in new creation, John, because of how the gospel starts, of course, you know, in the beginning. So you sort of know if you know that the author of John's gospel is beginning the gospel with a creation motif and then expanding that gospel. But the reason I sort of gained an interest in it was that in my PhD thesis, I discussed the topic of the law in John's Gospel and one of the subtopics was the Sabbath in John's Gospel. And then when I started looking into the topic of the Sabbath in John's Gospel, it sort of, you know, attaches to the topic of new creation. And so that's how I sort of got into it. And yeah, that's what I thought I would explore a little bit in this podcast. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. You already mentioned it. But so we have these like creation language things in the beginning. example, like in the beginning. And, nothing there is has been created apart from him. Kind of, yeah. But how, how does that present new creation? Because that's obviously original creation that is the current creation that has been talked about in in that particular context. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so a few things about that. I first really gained an interest into this topic through an essay by Martin Hengel, who wrote a chapter in a volume called The Gospel of John and Christian Theology. And that essay is entitled The Prologue of John's Gospel as a Gateway to Christological Truth. And one of the things that he pointed out that ever since seems obvious to me is that John 1 verse 1 to 5, of course, it begins with the creation, know, echoing the creation narrative, of course, making the claim that, you know, creation was done by the Word of God, which is later identified as Jesus. But then if you come to the end of John 1 verse 5, it says, you know, the light is in the darkness. And the darkness does not κατέλαβεν (katelaben), which is again an ambiguous Greek verb that can mean a whole host of things. know, and depending on the translation you're reading, may be translated that the darkness did not comprehend it or understand it or grasp it. But it does seem to have one, one of the meanings that it does seem to have is sort of that, that forceful struggle, it does not seem to be able to to seize the light. And what is interesting about it is that even though John has started by echoing the creation account of Genesis 1, Martin Hengel's point, and I think my point as well, would be to say well John 1 5, or John 1 verse 5 already presumes the narrative of the fall. There is already something that has gone wrong because there is a struggle now between the darkness and the light. And of course, prevails according to John 1.5. But nonetheless, there is a struggle between light and darkness. And at the end of Genesis 1, of course, know, light just shines in the darkness and creation is good. So even here at sort of the end of John 1.5, It seems that the author already presumes that the narrative of the fall, something has gone wrong in God's good creation. And there is a struggle now between light and darkness. And once you see that, once you see that the author of John's gospel is forefronting the gospel accounts with the echoes of Genesis one, but also presuming that who know the story of the fall. then what Jesus starts to do in John's Gospel begins to look awfully a lot like a ministry in which he brings about the restoration of a broken creation or you could say maybe beginning the inauguration of a new creation, whatever way you like to put it. And I think one of the ways you can most clearly see that is in John 4 34 when Jesus sort of gives his mission statement to the disciples and Jesus says to them you know my food is to do the will of the one who sent me and (τελειώσω αὐτοῦ τὸ ἔργον) to complete his work and that phrase sort of echoes Genesis 2 verse 2, I think it is, in the the Septuagint, where at the end of creation, you know, God has come to the end of creation and then God has completed his work and therefore he rests. And what Jesus is, he's framing his mission in a way, as you say, what I'm doing is completing the work of the Father, and that is bringing restoration to a creation that was good, but now is broken. So I think that's sort of how Jesus frames his own mission in John. once you see that, you can start to see the other pieces of the puzzle that we'll talk about fall into place regarding. Yeah. Yeah, that that's helpful. But yeah, and this is maybe down to my my ignorance. Because I feel like when we read Matthew, that's very clear that that Jesus says like this, a restoration or even renewal or recreation of the earth will come. Yeah, is very, very sort of like, clearly present that that within Matthew that, that the world has to be recreated. But it seems a little bit more sort of like unclear to me and in John. And, and you can maybe even if we wanted to like, play the devil's advocate in this, like, example, he was like saying that he's actually talking about his death and resurrection. So, so where do you see that, that that new creation is present in John? So more like explicitly maybe or Hmm. how does the pieces fit together? Sorry to interrupt the episode, but if you're enjoying the content, please consider subscribing and leaving a like. It really helps the algorithm and helps the podcast grow. Thank you for your support and now back to the episode. And, and you can maybe even if we wanted to like, play the devil's advocate in this, like, example, he was like saying that he's actually talking about his death and resurrection. So, so where do you see that, that that new creation is present in John? So more like explicitly maybe or Hmm. how does the pieces fit together? Yeah, yeah. Well, there are a few steps to this, and I hope that once we've gone through these steps, I will have answered all your questions and even the small objections. Yeah, one step would be to say, well, once we sort of frame the mission of Jesus as bringing restoration to broken creation, doesn't that make sense what he does in, you know, John's gospel or what John's gospel you know, selectively portrays about the things that Jesus has done. So, for example, you come to John five and you see that Jesus heals a man who can't walk anymore and he has been there for 38 years. you know, that is then sort of tied to a whole discourse about Jesus bringing and bringing life. And so again, you get that that idea of Jesus bringing new life, even in that instance in John five. You come to John 9 and you see Jesus healing the man born blind. And he uses, of course, spittle and the clay to heal that man. Now, there's been a fascinating article in JBL in 2013. It was by Daniel Freyer Griggs, argues that those elements, spittle and clay, in John 9-6 are actually combined in various Dead Sea Scrolls. He gives examples from the Dead Sea Scrolls where you see that those elements combined always point to creation activity. And so what Jesus is doing is, of course, know, he takes it from the ground, which in Genesis 2, he forms a new man from the ground. He takes clay and spittle and then puts it on the blind man's eyes. So, know, Daniel Frey of Grieg's, he argues that you can understand also that sign of Jesus as an act of new creation as it were. So that's the first step. You can sort of see some of the signs that Jesus does as really examples of how Jesus brings about restoration to broken creation. He brings life where there is death. He brings light where there is darkness. But then I think the next step is probably the most convincing one... to me. And that has to do with John's passion narrative. So in John's passion narrative, and again, I'll just forefront this by pointing the audience here to two good articles, because there's one article by Nicholas Wyatt called Supposing Him to be the Gardener. which is about the garden imagery in relation, in John 20, relation to the creation narratives. But there's also a fascinating article more recently by Nicholas Schaser, which is called Inverting Eden: the reversal of Genesis 1-3 in John's passion, published in 2020. And so some of their insights, and sometimes I get a bit confused where their insights and mine begin, but just pointing out some of the insights is that in John 19 and 20, if we look at the passion narrative, we see that Jesus after a life of obedience, he is given a crown of thorns, which is of course, you know, the Greek word ἄκανθα (akanta), which is the same words as Genesis 3, in the Septuagint uses. to describe the thorns that come up out of the ground because of man's disobedience. So there already seems to be that link between Jesus' obedience reversing somehow the curse that has been brought on the earth by man's disobedience in Genesis. A second observation would be when Pilate presents Jesus to the crowd, he declares, know, behold the man. which may evoke God's words to Adam and Eve, behold the man has become like one of us. Genesis 3 22. Now, the third observation, and so I think the accumulation of these observations, I'll give five, that accumulation I think makes it quite convincing. But the third one is before Jesus' crucifixion, he's stripped from all his clothing, including his garments, χιτών (chiton). which is woven from above. And of course in Genesis God makes a garment, χιτών (chiton), the same words in the Septuagint, this is Genesis 3.21, for the first human pair to cover their nakedness. And that garment is as it were, is made by God, it is made from above as it were. Now this one is I think the real gem. that in John's gospel, when after Jesus' death, his side is pierced and water and blood flow out. And of course, water and blood in the gospel are both associated with life, right? So Jesus' side is pierced and life flows out from his side. Now, what is interesting in the Septuagint, so in the Hebrew version of the creation narrative in Genesis 2, Adam is, Eve is created, you know, out of the rib of, Adam's rib is taken out and then Eve is created. But in the Septuagint, it is actually from Adam's side. So the same words, the plura, the side of Adam, Eve is created from the side of Adam in the Septuagint of Genesis 2. And of course, the name Eve means life. And so, you know, the life is created out of the side of the first human in the creation narrative of Genesis two. And likewise, when Jesus died out of dies out of his side flows new life. So I think that's that's another course there to the creation narrative. And then finally, you know, Jesus body is taken off the cross and placed to me. in a garden, a capos. And analogously, after Adam has been fashioned, God places him in the garden. And so all these echoes from Genesis 1-3 in the passion narrative and what the author of John's Gospel seems to be doing is presenting Jesus as an inversion of you know, the story that goes wrong in Genesis 1-3. And here is Jesus who takes on the disobedience of man and who brings about new life in the garden. And so I think that's a very powerful way to see how the theme of new creation comes about in John's Gospel. And then, of course, you know, you to John 20 and then on the first day of the week or the first of the Sabbaths, wait, let me back a little bit because then when Jesus on the cross, of course, the cry of Jesus on the cross that we only find in John's gospel is it is finished, Tetelestine, right? And that cry, I think echoes Jesus' mission statement in John

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34. I'm here to finish the works of my father, to complete his works. then, the cross of his eyes, it is finished. You know, now these works are finished. And again, I think that it is finished echoes Genesis 2 where after finishing creation, God says, you know, it is completed. It is finished. Because what happens in John after Jesus says it is finished, then John has this remark that, you know, the beginning, then there is the beginning of this great Sabbath, which is, you know, that mysterious idea of the great Sabbath and John, which scholars argue about what it exactly refers to. But one of the things it does, it is sort of this theological idea that Jesus's death is a completion of this work of, you know, the restoration of God's broken creation. And now a new Sabbath. is beginning and it is at this new Sabbath, the first day of the Sabbaths, John 21, in the garden when it is dark, you know, that Jesus, of course, the light of the world rises from the grave and inaugurates this new creation that has been, you know, beginning through his works and through his mission in John's Gospel. So That's a little bit of a summary. know that was quite long, but I hope that by just talking you through the evidence and the accumulation of the evidence that you can see that the theme of new creation is actually quite a big theme throughout John's Gospel. Yeah, I think that there's definitely the idea of like redeeming or restoration is definitely and yeah, completing something that is broken. Definitely definitely see see that being there. But don't know if because the interesting thing is that John is is a one of the few who actually talks about a future eschatological resurrection. Yeah, yeah, And how in chapter five, after he has been like basically stating I'm God and angry with him because of that, then he is going in to talk about that, that he has life in himself, he's not been given it. And then he says that there will be a day where people will will rise to either judgment or glory. Yeah, yeah. And so I think that, you know, the the healing narrative in John five that sort of comes before that discourse is sort of the example and inaugural example of what that would look like. You know, Jesus takes the man up and rises him up. Yeah. And and that's what will happen with the dead at the final day. Jesus, explains, you know, they will be they'll hear the voice of the son of man. they'll come out of their graves. Yeah, interesting. This is my interest in resurrection. So does he use ἐγείρω (egeiro) to talk about the guy who is raised up from the from the Yes, it's actually it is he says rise. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so the imperative of that is very clearly resurrection language. It means to rise from sleep, like in classical Greek, mostly. But it's actually mostly related to a physical movement upwards. And it is used very extensively within the New Testament to refer to resurrection as well. And it becomes almost like a is not a technical term. I don't think it's a technical term. But but it is a very particular term for for this kind of language, we even have like a fifth century Greek text, talking about resurrection very clearly with using this verb. So it's it's definitely a concept that is that lies within it. So I think that there might be a link there, like from a language linguistic perspective. Obviously, you always have to take things in its context and how it's used instead of like inferring ideas into words that are not in the context. yeah, but there may be actually a link there in the rising. Yeah, I think there is probably a link there. Yeah, yeah, so James P. Ware made an article fairly recently where he's trying to demonstrate that the idea of physical rising is in virtually inside the idea of of ἐγείρω (egeiro). Okay, Which is quite interesting. Again, would be worth exploring that more for me and John as well and how it tethers to the theme of new creation. Yeah, because obviously, Paul is very clear on this with that, especially in Colossians that, or even in like, in 1 Corinthians 15, he talks about Jesus being the first fruit. Yeah. And so that kind of idea of, of, of Jesus being the inauguration of new creation, definitely very clear in Paul, maybe even clearer than in John. Yeah, I think because John, you know, doesn't write a letter, but a gospel, it is probably as clear in John once you, you know, see it, but it is not as explicit in John as it is in Paul. But I think John would wholeheartedly agree that Christ is the first fruit and that we are a new creation. But I'll talk about that at the end as well. Yeah, sure. Sure. Yeah. It's always good to have something to look forward to. Yeah. I know that you've been been writing on the Exodus narrative in John. I know that there lots of people within Pauline scholarship who is trying to link Exodus to new creation. I don't know if if you see that to be the case in John. Yeah, this is a good question, Daniel. So I think it is true that the Exodus account of the construction of the tabernacle is partly patterned on creation account in Genesis. There's some good scholarship on that, on the similar structures, the verbal links and all of that. And of course, when we get to the end of the construction of the tabernacle, it's sort of remarks that Moses having completed the work of the Tabernacle, and that seems to be echo of Genesis 2, know, God having completed the work of creation. So there seems to be a link there. Now, do I think that, yeah, those things sort of relate to new creation in John? Well, Let me say this. Well, first of all, John Bear in his book, The Paschal Gospel, has written some very interesting things on this. So people want to go a bit deeper than I would definitely recommend that. But what I think when is happening in John is that when Jesus cries out, it is finished. It is not only a reference back to Genesis two. I think since sort of that cry, it is finished is also, you know, a phrase that is used in Exodus when the tabernacle was finished. I think John is actually linking Jesus Christ to both. And here is the reason why. the tabernacle was finished, the glory of Yahweh, of course, moves in to the tabernacle, right? That is the climactic point of the book of Exodus is that the work is finished and then the glory of the Lord moves into the tabernacle. definitely. Now I think in John's Gospel, yeah, I've written an article on sort of links between John and book of Exodus, so if people are interested, they could check that out for more details. But at the end of John's Gospel, Jesus' crucifixion and death are presented in John's gospel as a moment of glorification. This is moment that the glory of God is revealed in Christ becomes most visible at cross. And so I think that that link between Jesus saying it is finished at that moment of glorification is one of the ways that John also links to the book of Exodus. And it is a way that you can sort of see, yeah, the theme of glory in John is, of course, very significant and I think tethered to that whole idea of the tabernacle. But then because that idea of the tabernacle is already patterns on the creation narratives in Genesis, I think those two threats sort of come together in John's narrative. So I don't think it's either or, but it's both end there. Yeah, sure. Yeah, and it doesn't have to be either or always. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and of course, remember that Jesus' body has been presented as, you know, the dwelling place of God from John 1.14 onwards, later with the cleansing of the temple. So Jesus' body throughout the gospel has been sort of presented as the new tab, as a tabernacle, as a dwelling place of God. that it is at the cross, at the cross, that climactic moment of glorification. the glory of God displayed in the tabernacle as it were and Jesus says it is finished. So yeah, so I think there are echoes there to both Genesis 2 but also to Exodus 39 and 40. Yeah, my my own teacher, Jens Bruun Kofoed, I don't know how much of his work is of this particular part of his work has been published in English. But but he definitely has worked a lot on on on the idea of, of of Genesis presenting creation as a temple. That there's that there is an idea of like a You even can see the sphere of like how Genesis one is created is its structures and ancient temple. Yeah, exactly. I think those links between, you know, the Genesis one and two and the tabernacle creation in the book of Exodus, there are so many links between those two parts of scripture. I think you can almost not escape the conclusion that, yeah, that is one of the things that Genesis is doing. Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's there is there is this idea of, of that we are the image of God within the temple, I think, very, very strong. And that's also why I think it becomes even, or even even make it even clearer that God became a human being, like his actual image, that yes, the what we are supposed to reflect as humans. actually became a human. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and that's where is that's why also I think that, that john is talking about in that, that he became his interpreter. So like Jesus became his interpreter because he is God already. The exegete of the father, Yeah. Yeah. And then I couldn't escape my thinking as well in talking about like new creation or, or restoration or redemption of creation that in the end of the of the passion narrative, it doesn't, Jesus says, Yes, it is finished. But then, John quotes from Zechariah 12. Mm-hmm. And he is the only gospel writer. As far as I'm aware, that's the only quotation from Zechariah 12 in the New Testament. I might be wrong on that. But but he is saying that they should look on to him whom they pierced. It's an end time prophecy for how the Jews will return to God And it's an in Zechariah it's God talking. So as Yahweh is saying, they should look unto me whom they have pierced. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I need to I'm not I think you're right in saying that that's the only quotation of that passage directly in the New Testament, but listeners correct us if we're wrong that. Yeah. Yeah. And I do think that that is significant also in this talk about new creation and restoration. Because it is something that John must know when he writes this, this is not fulfilled yet. Yeah. Although, depending on whether John is written post the destruction of Jerusalem or not, it is. it is quite a significant thing about like Jerusalem is going to be like this stone that will rip people to blood and stuff like that. That's within that narrative as well. Within that prophecy. But even even at that time, it's it must be you must you must have seen that the people are still rejecting Christ within the Jewish community. So I was talking about Yeah, I need to, you've interested me to look more into how John is using that quotation and what it is exactly doing in the passion narrative. Yeah. Yeah, I'm basically talking off the top of my head right now. It's not something I thought like too deeply about, but I couldn't help escape me that thought. so that's also part of this conversation is that we be discussing things that that is in the text and, and on the topic. So to bring the listeners into to, to get deeper into Scripture. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and hopefully we both, we will also ourselves be led deeper into scripture. Yeah, that's part of the purpose. And so I'm grateful for the conversation. Yeah, likewise. So, we might already have talked about this question, but I'll ask it anyway. What are the specific things or matters about New Creation that Jones talks about that we do not find in the other Gospels? Yeah, so I think we've mentioned a few. Of course, Jesus rising on the first day of the week in the garden is not unique to John. So some of these creation elements we do find in other gospels or the crowd of thorns, but other elements, I think, like, know, the piercing of the side of Jesus and the blood and water flowing out, know, those elements of life. So there are some unique aspects to John. And of course, you know, some of the signs like the... the man born blind who is healed, Lazarus, all those are unique to John as well and I think tied to the theme of new creation. And then finally I would say that one of the discussions in gospel scholarship is you know why does John prefer the metaphor of life over the metaphor of the kingdom of God because of course in the synoptic gospels you know that the God is a phrase that is used a lot or the kingdom of heaven. if you look at Matthew's gospel. But in John's gospel, it is only mentioned in John 3 verse 3 and verse 5, and the rest of the gospel, seems to be about life. Now, you can explain this from, you know, historical point of view and say, well, John's gospel was written later, and by the time that John's gospel was written, sort of the immediate expectation that Na'at Vatung of the kingdom of God sort of began to fade a little bit amongst early Christians and so therefore he prefers, you know, to use metaphor of life. Well, whatever you think of that, I think that another reason or maybe a better reason that John prefers the metaphor of life is exactly because the theme of new creation is so prominent in his gospel and because he wants communicate that, you know, that the life that God gives, gave in creation and that life that has been sort of tainted by darkness and death is the life that Jesus brings, you know, the life that was, that came into being in him in the first place, but is now given in abundance in Jesus Christ. So I think if you wonder why John is using that metaphor, for me, one reason would be to say, well, creation. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe also, it says that Jesus says that I'm the resurrection and the life. The one who who, who dies doesn't really die enough. I forget the quote, correct quotation in English is that he says basically says that, and even if you die, you're not dying. That's the point when he talks about that, as well as that, that there is no end to the life that is that he is giving. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Then you could probably link that to the water of life that he is presenting to the woman in Sycha as well. Yeah, think, you know, all of these things. Yeah, that's why I said John has an immense depth to it and you can keep studying it and keep stumbling on on beautiful gems like like that. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, so I've been wondering whether there is maybe one more question before we get to the application is. Is there connection between Jesus, between abiding in Jesus in John 15? So when he uses the wine metaphor, like we are part of, we are branches upon the wine who is Jesus and new creation. Yeah, I think there's definitely a relation between abiding in Jesus and new creation. I would see that idea more strongly. I mean, I think John 15, you can tether that to John 20 when the resurrected Jesus appears to the disciples. And of course, this is another moment of new creation in John. He appears to them and he says, you know, they're troubled. And he says, peace be with you as the father sent me. So I am sending you. And then he breathes on them and he gives the Holy Spirit. And of course that verb, Jesus breathing is only used sort of in the, the Septuagint. It is used in Ezekiel 37 when the dead bones are brought to life. also used in Genesis 2, when God breathes life into the nostrils of the first human and gives him life. So that's definitely a strong link within John to new creation. But I think that's sort of where you see the abiding presence of Jesus, you know, through the Holy Spirit becomes a reality for the disciples. And that is definitely a moment of new creation. And so I see I see a link between abiding in Jesus and new creation, but I would say that the link that isn't made explicit in John 15, how that abiding happens, although if you look at the farewell discourses in total, you'll see that abiding happens through the Holy Spirit, but that is then actualized in John's wedding, the Holy Spirit is given to the disciples. So yeah, that's definitely a moment of new creation. And that one actually quite natural. really leads to the application as well. Yeah, and I think it's been fascinating talking about this and, and definitely open my eyes to how much more there is about new creation and new life. And, and the idea of restoration and redemption of, of creation in John's thing is fascinating. But yeah, now we talked about all this new creation stuff, how can we apply that as an everyday Christian listening to this or viewing this podcast? How can they apply this stuff - wonderful stuff I think to their lives? Hmm, yeah. Well, I would encourage the viewers or the listeners that, well, like Paul says, I think John is saying the same thing, that in Christ, if you're in Christ, you are a new creation. And like the disciples, you have received, you know, the Spirit of God, who, you know, is the one who brings about a new creation in you. in you and in me. And so we have the presence of the resurrected Christ dwelling in us through the Holy Spirit who brings about that new creation within you and me. And I think one specific way that we can embody that new creation in our world around us is in a similar way that Jesus does when he appears to the troubled disciples. What never fails to move me is that when Jesus appears there, his first word to his disciples is peace. Peace, be with you like the father send me. I'm sending you. Well, if there is one word that resonates in our world today, it is, you know, if we look at the news and it is the desire for peace. And I think what What John's teaches us is that through in the power of the Holy Spirit, we can become that presence like Jesus who brought peace to the troubled disciples. We now through the power of the Holy Spirit can become a peaceful presence, a presence in our world, a force in our worlds that brings God's peace through the ends to the ends of the world. So that would be the application that I want to encourage the listeners today with is that you have in Christ, if you are in Christ, you have that spirit, that same spirit that Jesus gave to the disciples. And it is spirit that will empower us and that should empower us and transform us to bring peace and to bring hope in our world. Yeah, that that's a wonderful way to to to end and Jesus is is our peace and the peace of the world. As the as to him as well. There's a him a well about that. That that Jesus is our peace. And I think that's wonderful way to end. Yeah. And thank you for joining me, Paulus. Yeah, it was a real privilege to be here and really fun to get into some in-depth conversations about John's Gospel and the theme of new creation. Yeah, thank you. And to you guys out there. I'll see you in the next one. See you, bye. But before you go, if you enjoyed this podcast and you want more people to see it, please subscribe and leave a like. It really helps us create more episodes like this one. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Have a great day and I'll see you in the next one