Does the Law of Moses Reveal the Messiah | Part 1 | Seth Postell

In this episode of Exploring the Language of Scripture, Daniel Mikkelsen sits down with Seth Postell—a dedicated scholar, Academic Dean at Israel College of the Bible, and Messianic Jew—to explore how a careful reading of the Torah and the Hebrew Bible transforms our understanding of the Law of Moses and its role in God's plan of salvation through the Messiah. Through a deep dive into biblical languages, Seth shows how nuances in the Hebrew text—from the debate over Psalm 2:12 to the controversial passage in Isaiah 7:14—reveal layers of meaning that many modern translations overlook.

Together, they unpack how the Torah’s structure—its interplay of blessings and curses, narrative arcs, and prophetic poetry—not only tells the ancient story of Moses and Israel but also points forward to the Messiah. Whether you’re a student of biblical languages, a theology enthusiast, or someone seeking to see Scripture in a new light, this conversation offers compelling insights into the life-changing power of understanding God’s Word in its original language.

⚠ Audio Disclaimer: Some portions of this episode have been restored to improve clarity. Thank you for your patience and understanding.

Don’t Miss the Next Episode:

A second part with Seth Postell is coming soon, but next, we’ll be exploring migration in Acts with Paul Wilson.

Chapters:

00:00 – Introduction and Opening Remarks
01:36 – Meet Seth Postell: Scholar, Teacher, and Messianic Jew
04:58 – A Journey of Faith: Seth’s Path into Biblical Studies
09:39 – Unlocking Scripture: How Biblical Languages Deepen Faith
11:34 – Decoding Psalm 2:12: A Hebrew Perspective on Messianic Prophecy
18:54 – Re-examining Isaiah 7:14: Virgin or Young Woman? Unpacking ‘Alma’
27:07 – Unlocking the Torah: Narrative, Prophecy, and the Promise of Redemption
35:18 – Grace and Salvation in the Torah: Bridging Mosaic Law and New Covenant Faith
39:54 – Blessings, Curses, and Redemption: The Poetic Cycle of Divine Promise
43:56 – Paul’s Affirmation of the Law: Bridging Old Testament Narrative with the Gospel
46:33 – Empowering Your Faith: Practical Steps to Embrace Biblical Languages

If you enjoyed this episode of Exploring the Language of Scripture, please consider becoming an Explorer! Your support helps keep the podcast ad-free, allows us to bring in more guests, and enhances the content we create. By joining our Explorer community, you’ll receive exclusive benefits, including Q&As, priority for Greek tutoring applications, and discounts on tutoring. Explore more and join the Explorer programme here: Become an Explorer. 

Podcast Keywords:
biblical languages, New Testament, Old Testament, Christ, bible study,  Relationship with God, learn biblical languages, Biblical Theology, Christianity, Covenants, New covenant, old covenant, language acquisition, Biblical Greek, Biblical Hebrew.

Transcript

0:00

For me, being able to read the biblical Hebrew and to work through the Hebrew Bible is a matter for me of life and death. It's a matter of, is the cost of following Yeshua, Jesus worth it or not? If you look at the structure of the Torah, you kind of have like this, almost like a bike tire where you've got the tire blessing and the inner tube of purses. And then the question then becomes, you know, how ultimately does God restore creation blessing? If we're saved by doing good, then why in the world would, you know, there's so much in the Torah is about the need for sacrifice and forgiveness. And so very much the Torah's theology is a theology of grace. The Genesis is the prequel to the story of Moses and Israel. And suddenly you start to realize that so many of the stories within Genesis, you can't understand them without considering the way they prefigure and relate to Moses and the rest of the Torah. And so as I've studied the Torah, I feel like I've learned to be able to read the rest of the Bible, including the New Testament. Hey there and welcome back to another episode of Exploring the Language of Scripture brought to you by entry Greek tutoring, the place for personalized Greek learning in your spare time. I'm your host Daniel Mikkelsen the founder of entry Greek tutoring and a PhD candidate in New Testament at the University of Edinburgh. And this podcast exists to make gems from biblical studies accessible to everyday Christians and show you how the biblical languages opens up scripture and our aim is to increase your love of God and his word so that we become more joyful witnesses for his mission. And today I'm joined by Seth Postell, a messianic Jew who is the Dean of Studies at the Israel College of the Bible in Israel. I hope that I pronounced that correctly. thank you. He has a PhD in the Hebrew Bible from Gateway Seminary where he studied under John Sailhamer Seth has published multiple articles on the Hebrew Bible in academic journals and he has worked on Adam as Israel which is also the title of one of his books. He has worked extensively on Torah, how the Torah points to the Messiah and our need for him. which we will be talking much more about in this episode. So if you are finding this topic as fascinating as I think, then stick around for that. He also worked a lot on intertextuality within the Hebrew Bible itself, but also between the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament. And I had the privilege to meet Seth on a couple of occasions, the first time of on a trip in Israel when I was doing my bachelor's, starting off our Hebrew course, we visited Israel College of the Bible and together with a group of fellow students, a couple Danish scholars, Jens Bruun Kofoed and Ole Andersen, who is sort of like a lay scholar, I would say. I think we had a lecture where you, Seth, you actually taught about the goal of the Torah. And if I remember that correctly. And the following year you were in Denmark on a conference, think was in intertextuality within the Bible. And I personally always found your teaching very engaging and informative. So it's a great honor to have you on the podcast today. Yeah. Thank you, it's great to be here. Yeah, I actually have a funny story, you mind, don't mind. Because do you remember the first, when you were coming in and you were lecturing, then you saw that Jens Bruun Kofoed was in the room and it was like, this, you actually wrote my favorite book in my PhD course. Yeah. And you were like, when I found out that you were coming, then I re-read it and then Afterwards the answer said my favorite book is your book and I also read it I do remember that. And it's still, think, one of the best books, one of the top 10 books I've read in the last 20 years. just, think he did such a good job on that book. Yeah, I actually have it here. It's right here. good for you. Yeah. In hands reach. Yeah, good. In arms reach. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, had the privilege to be taught by Jens and he's a great teacher as well. But I think you are a great teacher as well. anything else you want to add before we jump to the questions? No, I just I'm really honored and just the whole goal of your organization is to get people excited about the Bible and biblical languages and to see that, you know, that the biblical languages actually have a very practical application to our walk with God. think I'm all about that and just keep up the good work. Thank you. I'm honoured, honoured about that. Yeah, it's great to have you here today. So the first question I want to ask you is how you got into the study of biblical languages. Yeah, so it actually began with a conversation I had with my dying uncle. So I grew up in the United States in a Jewish family. And in the Jewish family, Jesus is a forbidden topic. The New Testament is something you never read. a very long story, quite short, is I ended up coming to faith. I grew up going to Hebrew school, but just learning how to read the letters and the vowels, but not really being able to read and understand or biblical Hebrew. couldn't do that. But in my early twenties, late twenties, late teens, early twenties, I went to share the gospel with my uncle who was dying. And he said to me, he said, Seth, he said, the only reason that you believe in Jesus is because you're reading a Christian translation of the Hebrew Bible. He said, when I get better, I'm going to show you, I'm to prove to you that Jesus can't be the Messiah. And, and the realization is that when I started looking at the, you know, the Jewish translations of the Hebrew Bible in to English, suddenly all these passages that were near and dear to my heart, all these passages that apparently had affirmed and confirmed that Jesus is the Messiah in the Old Testament, suddenly were translated very differently. And I found myself disoriented. so that became the beginning of a very long process of devoting myself. And I realized, you know, I couldn't look myself in the mirror as a Jewish believer and say that I believe that Jesus is the Messiah promised in the Hebrew Bible without being able to read the Hebrew Bible and being able to discuss it. with other people who know Hebrew and know the Hebrew Bible. And so that became my lifelong's pursuit and it still is. And along the way, the joy was when I went to seminary, I realized that I needed to be able to read, like I could read the Hebrew Bible, I needed to be able to read the Greek New Testament. And so that became a passion, that became a goal. And so that's something that I I firmly believe in the importance and the power of. understanding the original languages. Now, obviously, I don't think everybody's called to be able to Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic. I get that. But for those that actually have the time and those that are called to teaching the Bible, think it's, you know, there are very few excuses I'm willing to accept for a pastor, for instance, for a pastor that doesn't at least aim to gets to grow in the tools of being able to read the Bible in the original language. I just think it's just so crucial. Yeah, I very much agree. One of the goals of NT Greek tutoring is to not just let scholars and pastors be excited about biblical Greek in particular, but also Hebrew and Aramaic and other biblical languages and the languages tied to the Bible. You know, it's interesting, sorry to interrupt, I was just simply saying that within a Jewish education, a Jewish religious education, Jewish children learn the language, the holy language. That's just part of their culture so that Jewish children are learning Hebrew. They're learning Aramaic as part of their education. would that we come to, would that the church comes to a place where That's just kind of, know, Sunday school is learning Hebrew and Greek for kids. mean, it just seems like that would, you know, that's just such a, so lacking and would be such an incredible thing is to see more Christians taking the biblical languages seriously. Yeah, yeah, I'm fully on board with that. I think that more Christians, not necessarily everybody as you said, but definitely more Christians, both pastors, scholars and lay people alike, that just are excited about reading the Bible in the original languages. Because if you have people who learn Danish to read Søren Kierkegaard, what dedication is that? Like, shouldn't we have a more, like a greater dedication to wanting to read God's own word in the original languages. Correct. Yeah, so, but how have you sort of experienced that the biblical languages has opened up scripture to you? Well, again, if I can take it back to being a Jewish person who believing in Jesus is not a very popular thing within the Jewish community. It doesn't make you the most popular kid in town when you believe in that man. And for me, the biblical languages has made all the difference in the world between being able to defend the faith and to me, being able to read the biblical languages, Hebrew in particular, has actually strengthened my faith in the New Testament. And it strengthened my belief that the New Testament authors actually correctly identified Jesus as the promised Messiah and that they were actually reading the Old Testament correctly as a book about the Messiah. And so for me, it's not just a... past time or just, you know, okay, I just want to be, you I don't know, I want the degrees. For me, being able to read the biblical Hebrew and to work through the Hebrew Bible is a matter for me of life and death. It's a matter of, is the cost of following Yeshua, Jesus worth it or not? And the answer is yes. I know. with to the core of my beings as I've being as I've wrestled through the Hebrew Bible that that these passages are messianic and that the New Testament authors got it right. So for me, it is literally my faith stands or falls on a careful reading of the Hebrew Bible. That's very encouraging. I think, that's how we should approach the biblical language. That they will increase our understanding. Do you have any examples more specifically on how you have seen the text open up for you? Yeah, mean, so one of the things that your readers or your listeners can do is they can go to our YouTube channel, One For Israel. So Israel College of the Bible is part of a bigger ministry called One For Israel. And so we have a YouTube channel. And one of the things that we do is a series called The Case for the Messiah. And in the case for the Messiah, we basically go through the different key passages that are dealing with our faith from the Old Testament. And we deal with the you know, rabbinic refutations of those passages. And then we look at, you know, then we wrestle with it with a close reading of the text. And so, you know, one, I mean, I could give you lots of examples, but, you know, I guess. One example that comes to mind immediately would be in Psalm chapter, Psalm chapter two, verse 12, right? I can open it. I can open it up there. Psalm chapter two, verse 12. Okay. And so there's, you know, in the English translations, you wouldn't realize they're probably in the Danish translations. I'm imagining it says kiss the son or do homage to the son letting not become angry and you perish in your way. Psalm 2 verse 12, you said. Yeah. Kiss the Son in the ESV. Yes. I don't know what it is in Danish, but in the New American Standard, the word there is son. And so. But the interesting thing is, is it's not the normal word for son. It's not the same word as you see from verse seven, you know, where it says, I will tell of the decree. I will tell of the decree. of the Lord, okay, he said to me, you are my son. So it's a different word. And so then the question is, is son an accurate translation? And so they're very strong rabbinic refutation of reading this as son is that the word is bar, B-A-R, bar. And so the argument that bar is not a Hebrew word, bar in Hebrew means purity. So if you look at the Jewish translation of this verse, see here, the JPS, the translation is, homage in good faith. Pay homage in good faith. Okay, so the bar here is translated as good faith. And so then you have a really a big argument as to what is the better reading and why is the word bar used here? And all this to simply say, you could never hope to actually engage in in trying to figure out the answer if you're not wrestling with the original languages. And so it's really interesting. The answer comes not only by way of the biblical Hebrew and in the biblical Hebrew actually, Bar elsewhere in scripture is used one other time for son in the book of Proverbs, the end of book of Proverbs. But then you start to also realize that within the literary structure of Psalm chapter two, you have The response would be that, you have the nations opposing the Lord. Uh, it says in verse two here in verse two, the nations are opposing, uh, the Lord and his anointed one, his Messiah. Okay. You have the nations against two, the Lord and his Messiah. So breaking off their courts, their yoke, but then you have the response and it's really interesting in their response. in verses four through nine, where the response is a response that is a conversation between the Lord and his son. Okay? So you have again the two. And basically the Lord speaks to his son, the son responds. And then finally you have in verse 10, a plea of the psalmist himself. And he cries out and he says, now therefore, kings, you rebellious kings. show discernment, take warning, judges of the earth. Verse 11, worship the Lord. And then the question is, what's the right translation of Bar in verse 12? Well, it has to be son rather than purity. Why? Because if the son disappears from verse 12, then the reconciliation is partial. In other words, in order for the nations to reconcile in the rebellion, They have to reconcile not only with the Lord, but with his Messiah. Okay. So here bar has to be son. And then I would argue that the word bar is chosen also as part of the poet, the poetics of the verse itself. There's several bar Hebrew words here. And so it's like, you know, the word iron has the word bar in it. So it's almost like kiss the kiss, the son or get, you know, you know, hit. hit in the head with iron. But the point is that there's no way I could ever engage with the JPS, you know, if I don't know the Hebrew and if I'm not able to engage in a very careful reading of this passage. And the point being, verse 12 has to be son, because if it's not son, if it's not son, then you have a very partial reconciliation that doesn't make sense. But the implications of this being son are quite profound because verse 11, you worship the son. Sorry, you worship the Lord. Okay. But what's really interesting in paying homage to the son, notice then what it says at the end of the verse and how blessed are all those who take refuge in him. Well, this suggests then, you know, taking refuge in him in the book of Psalms. is something you do in the Lord himself. And so again, the implications of this being interpreted as son, it raises the son of God to a place of deity. You're worshiping the Lord and you're taking refuge in the son. And so again, I could never engage with the arguments against my faith without the Hebrew. Yeah, that's a powerful example. I think the Danish translation kiss his feet, so it's sort of like a middle position. Interesting. And I would argue that it's just, you know, maybe they're influenced by the Jewish polemics against that text. But if the word there is not son, then we have a breakdown in the parallelism of the structure, the literary structure breaks down and your reconciliation. So you've opposed the Lord and his Messiah, but then with the reconciliation, you only get right with the Lord. but you never actually received the Messiah. But you've got to receive the Messiah as part of this reconciliation. Yeah, this seems the worst is very differently translated in Danish, so it is very possible that that's what's happening. Yeah. But that's a very powerful example for why you should learn Hebrew and engage with this. Yeah. Yeah, if you maybe one more example and then. Sorry to interrupt the episode, but if you're enjoying the content, please consider subscribing and leaving a like. It really helps the algorithm and helps the podcast grow. Thank you for your support and now back to the episode. Yeah, if you maybe one more example and then. So another example, this will be a harder example to give just because we don't have a whole lot of time. again, the very most, the most famous and most controversial passage, I think in the Hebrew Bible when it comes to the New Testament, it's use of the Old Testament would be Isaiah chapter seven. Okay. And so then in Isaiah chapter seven, verse 14, you know, the new American standards says, therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign behold. Okay. Is it a virgin? And is it will be with child? And then verse and the JPS assuredly, my Lord will give you a sign of his own accord. Look, the young woman is with child. Okay. So here's what's really interesting. You've actually got kind of a hybrid where the correct Hebrew reading I think is kind of reflected when you merge both of these texts together. So for instance, here it says will be the verb they translated as will be. Okay. There's no, the verb is not will be, you actually have an adjective, pregnant. It's a nominal clause. Okay, so the Alma is pregnant. It doesn't say will be pregnant. It's just an adjective. And so that's the first thing is that I would say that the Jewish translation gets it's right, is with child. Okay, but then the question is, are we dealing with a virgin? Or are we dealing with just a young woman? And if a woman is with a pregnant woman or pregnant one woman is hardly a sign. But is this a pregnant, is this virgin pregnant? Okay. And so then the question is, are we dealing with a virgin or are we dealing with a young woman? And if we're dealing with a virgin, why is the word here used different than the standard word for virgin, which is betula? Okay, and so you've got to then engage with a very careful reading of the text. And what's really interesting here is that in the book of Isaiah, okay, if you go to Isaiah chapter 54, Okay. And in chapter 54, verse four, okay. And again, there's no way I'm to be able to cover this in a short podcast, but what's really interesting is that you have the word here, the reproach of your youth. So in Isaiah 54, it's describing a situation where Jerusalem is being used as a metaphor as a mother without children, as a woman without children. And then Isaiah goes on to describe the different shames of women who don't have children and he uses two metaphors the first metaphor he uses If you look at verse there, let's see here Yeah in verse 54 in verse 4 of chapter 54. You've got two different metaphors. You've got the shame of Not having a children like the shame of your youth like you You don't have a child in your youth But then you have another shame, which is the reproach of widowhood. So there is two different metaphors being used, two different pictures being used. Now, what's interesting is in verse five then, and by the way, the shame of your youth, it's the same root as the root word for virgin or the word that's used in Isaiah 7 14. In other words, verse four becomes crucial in defining what an Alma is. Is it just a young woman or is it a virgin? And what's interesting is verse five then verse five then basically does something quite spectacular is the first part of the verse provides the solution to a woman who doesn't have a child because of her alumim her whatever that state is. Notice that your husband is your maker. Okay. And then it says if you skip down two lines and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel. Now, why is that interesting? Because for a widow, the solution to a widow not having a child is that she needs to be redeemed. Somebody needs that. Okay, so that solves the first that solves the problem of not having a child because you're a widow. But the first part, your husband is your maker. the husband solves the problem of the shame of your youth. In other words, the solution to not having a child because of your state of youthness is you need to get married, which means that the word for youth used in Isaiah 7 14 is a word for a young unmarried woman. It's a woman who's young. who immediately enters the age where she's marryable. She's sexually able to be married, but she can't have a child. And Alma can't have a child until she is taken by a husband. So Alma cannot be pregnant until a husband takes her and only afterwards. And so here we have a situation in Isaiah chapter seven. And Isaiah 54, we're only by wrestling with the Hebrew and knowing the root of the Hebrew word can you realize that what we actually have in 7.14 is an Alma has to be an unmarried, a very young unmarried woman. And what's interesting is everywhere that it's possible to confirm the meaning of Alma elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible, it's hardly used. I think it's used eight times Alma. In some of the cases, It's used as a title so you don't know what the word means. But in those cases where it's clear what it means, we're dealing with a young unmarried woman. And so only by wrestling with the Hebrew that you suddenly realize that Isaiah 7.14 has to be based on its use in Isaiah 7, Isaiah 54, that Alma is an unmarried woman who's not, she's not had sex yet. She's not been married, she's not been taken, but she's pregnant. So the correct translation of this passage is, therefore the Lord himself will give you a son. Behold. A pregnant, a pregnant virgin will bear a son or is bearing a son. OK, and so so the point being, here's another example. by the way, the moment you've actually demonstrated that the word, the best translation or the best interpretation of Alma is virgin, then you're suddenly realize that you're basically in a situation where there cannot be double fulfillment of Isaiah chapter seven. If that's the best reading of the verse, then there is no, there can't be double fulfillment. And then you've got to deal with the historical context. But the point is by wrestling with the Hebrew, you suddenly realize that I think Matthew got it right. He didn't get it wrong. He's not using census money or he's not kind of double fulfillment here. He gets, I think he gets what the text actually says. So there's another. very powerful and very engaged example and wonderful example, think. Yeah, so and it shows how, why I think it is a very, very poignant way of like showing how it makes sense to engage with the languages. And why we should take our time to study the original language of the word of God. Yeah. And I think that that is a a good segue into the topic, because you worked a lot on the Torah, the first five books of the Bible, or as I've heard you stress many times, the first book of the Bible. What led you to study the Torah rather than other parts of the Bible? Yeah. And again, I think a lot of this comes with me on a very personal level of being Jewish and the cost of being a follower of Jesus in terms of your social life, in terms of your there's a huge cost to being Jewish and being a believer in Jesus, especially in Israel. Right. And so a lot of my scholarship has been driven by a need to have good intellectual reasons, solid intellectual reasons for believing in Jesus. And so what happened was back in 2000, back in 2000, I was asked to teach in a discipleship program to do a survey of the Torah. so I, know, at the time it was before I had done my master's degree and I, I started reading all these different commentaries and I became very discouraged because if you look in, you know, in John chapter, chapter five, John chapter five, verse 46, 40, you know, Jesus says in John five, verse 46, if you believe Moses, you believe me for he wrote about me. And he's, he's, he's basically even says in verse 45, I'm not going to accuse you before the father it will be Moses. So Jesus seems to be arguing that, you know, this is a, this is a, this is a, he's making a point that without me, just on the basis of Moses, you're going to be, he's going to accuse you of not, of not believing in me. But then I started reading all these commentaries by key Christian scholars on the five books of Moses. And I had this, like this terrible crisis of faith, like this. cognitive dissonance where I believe the New Testament was true, but if I were ever invited by a rabbi to go to a synagogue and spend an hour or two hours or 10 hours, not looking at Isaiah 53, but the Torah and defending my faith just on the basis of the Torah, I realized I couldn't do it. And it was at that point that somebody introduced to me the book by John Sailhamer the Pentateuch as narrative. And that was the first time I was ever actually introduced to text centered readings of the Bible, literary readings of the Bible. It was the first time I was ever introduced to what's called compositional analysis, looking at macro structure and how passages relate to the macro structure. And then I suddenly realized that he made this incredible case that the structure of the Torah is built on narrative with these poetic interpretations that come at the end of these narrative segments. And then he showed that you know, Genesis 49, Numbers 24, Deuteronomy 31, 32, 33, you've got these, what are called these themes, where at the end of these major narrative sections, you have these poetic blessings where somebody is speaking about what will take place in the last days. In the Hebrew, it's Ba'acharik Yamim, in the last days. And I'd never seen that before. And then I started to... to look at the poetry in the Torah as sort of the guide, the interpretive guide to the meaning of the Torah. And suddenly you realize, wow, eschatology is really crucial in the meaning of the Torah. And he was the one that kind of, for me, proved to me that you don't have to put your brain at a side, or you don't have to use appeal to census plenior to believe that what Jesus is saying in John chapter five, verse 46. is defensible literally, it's defensible exegetically. And that to me was like the beginning. So 2000 was for me or 2001, 2000 was the beginning of this journey. As I read this book by Sailhamer, the Pentateuch's narrative, I ended up going and doing my masters with him. I doctorate with him. And that's just been my passion ever since is just, you know, to be able to study the Torah in the original languages. and to acquire all the necessary exegetical tools to see, to understand the book. And so again, for me, it was kind of an existential need to be able to look myself in the mirror and say, I'm Jewish and I believe in Jesus. I have not betrayed my people. I have truly put my faith in the one of whom Moses said I should believe in. He is that prophet, Moses. And so, I have no choice but to believe in him and I have no choice and I'm compelled to share that faith with others because I do believe he is the promised Messiah. I think that's maybe the best way to why I studied the Torah. And what did you then find apart from like you seeing the prophecy within the poetry? Yeah. So again, just, I think for me as a result of studying Sailhamer, he kind of brought me back to, you know, some really the leading Jewish scholars today in the world, both those that write in Hebrew and those that, writing in English, you know, about, about the, the, how masterfully literary the Hebrew Bible is and, and the ways in which stories parallel one another. with, with as part of the compositional strategy and that you have to notice the way that one text is looking at and interpreting another text. And, and so studying the Torah and particularly studying, you know, how Genesis functions within the context of the Torah is almost like a prequel. don't know if you, you're probably not a Star Wars fan. I'm, I'm, you know, I'm kind of an older. Okay. So if you think about, if you think about, you know, the original trilogy of Star Wars, right? Then you kind of watch the prequel, which takes you back in time, even though it was made after the time. And suddenly you realize the whole function of the prequel is to prefigure and to prepare you for the main story. Genesis is the prequel to the Torah. The Genesis is the prequel. to the story of Moses and Israel. And suddenly you start to realize that so many of the stories within Genesis, you can't understand them without considering the way they prefigure and relate to Moses and the rest of the Torah. And then that becomes a guide to seeing how other later biblical writers are reading the Torah, reading, you know, For instance, in the prophets, Isaiah's eschatology is very much based on reading the narratives about creation, reading the narratives about Exodus, and looking at the past as a picture to the future. well, where did they learn to do that? They learned to do that from the book of Genesis itself and the relationship between Genesis and the rest of the Torah. And so, You know, that's, as I've studied the Torah, I feel like I've learned to be able to read the rest of the Bible, including the New Testament. Very interesting. I've heard Christians say that in the old covenant believers were saved by obeying the Mosaic law, but in the new covenant you are saved by grace. What would you say to that based on what you found in the Torah and what it says about grace and salvation? Well, you know, I would say that if you look at the structure of the Torah, just in terms of, if you look at nearly dead center of the Torah in terms of the number of verses, it's just shy left of Leviticus chapter 16, the day of atonement. And you'd have to wonder why in the world would God have given a sacrificial system and why would the day of atonement be at the center of the Torah if you could be saved by the law? Right? mean, obviously there is a provision within the law of Moses to deal with sin, to deal with defilement, ritual defilement, ritual impurity. And I would argue that these also become very much a crucial part of, you know, how the New Testament is also reading the importance of why Jesus came. OK, but then add to that, add to that the fact that One of the main features of the structure of the Torah is the faith theme. John Sailhamer, again, I owe him so much, but when Jesus says, if you believed Moses, you'd believe me. What I find to be remarkable about that is that that becomes a key feature in the book of Moses is believing in Moses, not just the Lord. So in Exodus 14, 31, You know, they saw the Dead Sea, sorry, they saw the sea split, the sea closing and says, and they believed in the Lord and in his servant Moses. And then you look at Exodus chapter 19 verse nine, God's purpose of revealing himself at Mount Sinai was so that they would also believe in Moses. And then if you look at, you know, the patriarchal narratives and the significance of Abraham believing and being accredited, being accredited to him as righteousness. And then you look at you know, the reason why Israel is excluded from coming into the promised land in Numbers 14, because they did not believe. And then Moses and Aaron are excluded from going into the promised land because they did not believe Numbers 20 verse 12. And so suddenly you realize that the Torah's theology is very Pauline and, and, and, and you realize that faith is crucial. to a relationship with God at any point in history. You look at the promise of the Messiah as a crucial component, but then you also look at the sacrificial system. If we're saved by doing good, then why in the world would, you know, there's so much in the Torah is about the need for sacrifice and forgiveness. And so very much the Torah's theology is a theology of grace. And then you go on into the Hebrew Bible and other passages, Psalm 103, I think is an inter-biblical interpretation of the golden calf incident, where we're looking at the gracious character of God. so, yeah, I would say that to have kind of a different soteriology for the Torah than for the New Testament, I think goes against what I see. within the Torah itself. Yeah, and I think I remember when I was reading a precursor to the book that is now called Reading Moses Finding Jesus, it was called The Goal of the Torah when I read it. We also look at how the addition of laws happens based on rebellion. Correct. Correct. Exactly. So again, I find that by being carefully engaging in a literary reading of the Torah, I find that Torah's compositional strategy to be very Pauline, very New Testament. Even the way that it ends in Deuteronomy 30 where, you know, after Israel's exile, their hope is that God's going to regather them and circumcise their heart. Right? Deuteronomy 30 verse 6, that's so Jeremiah. That's exactly what Jeremiah says is going to happen. It's exactly what Ezekiel said is going to happen. And so you start to realize that even the way that the Torah ends is the realization, Deuteronomy 31, that Israel is going to break. They're going to violate the Mosaic covenant. And therefore God's going to have to do something new. so the new covenant is very much part of the eschatology of the Torah. Yeah, and I remember quite vividly how you were then, so when you were talking about how the Deuteronomy and the blessing and curse structure within Deuteronomy, how that relates to the beginning of the Torah and that also sort of ties that together. So can you sort of like explain to me how that work? Yeah, well, the bottom line is that if you look at, you know, if you look at the structure of the Torah, you've got the creation of the prologue to the Torah, Genesis, you know, 1, 1 through 2, 3, the emphasis is on blessing, which is, you know, expressed through seed and land. But then very quickly you have it, you know, in chapter three through 11 or chapter three through nine. curse enters in because of disobedience. so the way that the Torah ends is it ends with the curses of the law in Deuteronomy 28. But then, and then after that follows the blessings, the blessings of Moses or the blessing of Moses. And so you kind of have like this, almost like a bike tire where you've got the tire blessing and the inner tube of curses. And then the question then becomes you know, how ultimately does God restore creation blessing? that becomes, you then the poems of blessing become crucial within the structure of the Torah. And it always kind of comes down to the seed from Abraham, the seed of Abraham, a king who will ultimately restore God's creation blessings. And so in a nutshell, that's how I see the relationship between cursing and blessing in the Torah. Yeah, yeah. That's helpful to sort of like look at that and then... the We already talked a little bit about the narrative, the thing, but when we read through, like you mentioned Exodus and Leviticus in particular, how does it become clear within the reading of that part of the Torah that we cannot obtain the life through the law, but we need like a savior to grant us life? Yeah. Well, it's interesting that every, like, you can almost say that Israel never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity. And so, you know, you have these repeated patterns, and parallel patterns of God doing good and Israel rejecting God doing good, Israel rejecting. That's the song of Moses in Deuteronomy 32. It's, it's the kind of, that's the quintessential theology of the Torah is that Israel continues to fail. And what's really remarkable is that when the high priest fails, right, when Aaron fails, he needs a higher priest, Moses. So Moses is kind of like this non-Aaronic higher than high priesthood. And Moses then becomes a key figure in the eschatology and in the hope of the future that you need a prophet who's going to be greater than the Aaronic priesthood. so. You know, and the Torah is very critical at times of the priesthood. So the golden calf, Aaron is there. You've got the sins of Nadab and Abihu and Leviticus chapter 10. And then just again, the repeated disobedience and God continues to respond with goodness and grace. But you end up with this need for a greater than Moses. You end up with this greater than Aaron, a priesthood that's greater than the Aaronic priesthood. Yeah, exactly. I was thinking just about like the Melchizedekic priesthood that Hebrews picks up on. you see that tying into Moses and that he is the greater prophet. it Deuteronomy 18 if I remember correctly? Correct. about that there will come someone like me that's... but and then it actually explicitly says there's no one came. Exactly at the end of the Torah in Deuteronomy 34, there was no prophet like Moses. so that kind of leaves that passage open-ended in the need of fulfillment. Yeah, so think that's that's a beautiful one. And we mentioned Paul and you said so because some some people have argued that Paul has a very negative view of the law that's quite kind of prominent within my field, that some people would say that. What would you say to that claim? I think Paul loved the law. I think that, you know, it's hard to make sense of the book of Romans if you're not reading. If you're not, I would argue that Paul's theology is, you know, and I'm looking at the time here, so I may only be able to make another point or two. what I find to be interesting in the book of Romans is that, you know, it opens with in Romans, let's see here, in Romans one. You know, he talks about the gospel of God, which you promised beforehand through his prophets and the holy scriptures. Then you go to chapter 16, which is the end and 16.20 was a 20. Yeah. And 26, but you know, he's talking about his gospel again, uh, which is manifested by the scriptures of the prophets. And I find that's really what's really remarkable is that Romans has the densest. densest like Paul uses incites the Old Testament more in Romans than any of his other epistles. We've got this eclusio around Romans which basically says my gospel is according to the scriptures. It's according to the prophets and so I would argue that that that he's arguing that his gospel is completely according to the Torah and the prophets. That's what he does in Romans and so when you come to Romans chapter four he says you don't believe me. that there's a righteousness that's revealed apart from the law, but that's manifested or claimed by the law. You don't believe me that my gospel establishes the Torah and doesn't abolish it. Here we go. Romans chapter four. Here's an example. I'll prove to you that the best reading of the Torah is a reading that leads you to faith in Jesus. Yeah, that's wonderful. I have one more question before I want you to like make an application for this. So. So I'm looking at the time and I actually haven't I have like a minute and a half to get to a zoom meeting and the directors meeting so I may not have the time for for another question. Then let's do the application. Like what, how would you apply what you talked about? Yeah, well, I would argue that, you know, if, Seth Postell can learn to read Hebrew and Greek, then anybody can. I grew up wasting my time watching cartoons and watching Bugs Bunny playing sports and doing really bad in school. And so I would say my application would be if I can do it, anybody can do it. And we need to do it because we love Jesus. Yeah, I think that's good one to end. yeah, that the goal of the Torah is Christ. Amen. Amen. We may have to do a part two. Yes, yeah, that would be great. Thank you Thank you so much. I wish I could stay longer. Thank you so much, Daniel. Thank you very much and God bless you too. Thank you. Bye-bye. But before you go, if you want to watch the other episode that's coming out about the goal of the Torah with Seth where he is going into more detail about this then subscribe to the channel, leave a like for the algorithm, and have a wonderful day, and I will see you in the next one.