Does the Law of Moses Reveal the Messiah? | Part 2 | Seth Postell

In this episode of Exploring the Language of Scripture, Daniel Mikkelsen welcomes back Seth Postell—a Messianic Jew, Academic Dean at Israel College of the Bible, and biblical scholar—for a deeper exploration of how the Torah’s eschatology points forward to the Messiah. Building on their earlier conversation, they dive into the Torah’s structure, Israel’s story of exile and restoration, and how both the prophets and the New Testament read Moses with messianic expectation.

Together, they uncover how key passages—such as Zechariah 12, Isaiah 53, and the Torah’s prophetic poems—reveal that the hope of a Redeemer is embedded in the very fabric of Torah and all of Scripture from the beginning. Whether you’re passionate about biblical theology, fascinated by the continuity of Old and New Testaments, or seeking to see Jesus more clearly through the Law of Moses, this episode offers compelling insights into the unfolding story of God's redemption. 

📢 Don’t Miss the Next Episode: 
In our next conversation, Daniel sits down with Robert Lane to explore how metaphors shape our reading of Matthew’s Gospel. 

Chapters:
00:00 – Introduction
01:37 – Why the Torah’s Messianic Hope Still Matters
04:28 – How the Torah’s Structure Points to a Redeemer
14:38 – How the Prophets Read the Torah’s Future
19:54 – Israel, the Nations, and the New Exodus
24:09 – Zechariah 12: Unlocking the Torah’s Eschatology?
27:09 – How the New Testament Reads the Torah
38:18 – Eschatology: Messianic Themes in the Torah’s Poems
44:47 – How the Old Testament Interprets the Torah
50:05 – Exile and Restoration: A Messianic Theme
55:50 – What the Law Means After Jesus
01:01:50 – How the Torah Deepens Our Understanding of Jesus

Music Credits:
Music from #Uppbeat 
https://uppbeat.io/t/all-good-folks/aspire 

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Podcast Keywords:
biblical languages, New Testament, Old Testament, Christ, bible study,  Relationship with God, learn biblical languages, Biblical Theology, Christianity, Covenants, New covenant, old covenant, language acquisition, Biblical Greek, Biblical Hebrew.

Transcript

0:00

Jesus is the new Moses, but the new Exodus has not happened yet. I don't believe the new Exodus is spiritual or only spiritual. In other words, people... the prophets are reading it in the very same way. And so the eschatology, eschatology of Isaiah taken from the Torah, the eschatology of Jeremiah taken from the Torah. They were reading the Torah and understood that Israel's futures tied specifically to the Messiah and to the new covenant. Where did they get that from? Zechariah 12 in the context of Zechariah 14 and the Lord coming to fight for his people. We don't believe this has happened yet. We're longing for this new Exodus and this hope of this new Exodus is taken from the first Exodus. The first Exodus is eschatological. People want to argue that Isaiah 53 is a prophecy about Israel's rejection of the Messiah, but it's technically not. Isaiah 53 is a prophecy of Israel realizing They were wrong about the Messiah... Welcome back to another episode of Exploring the Language of Scripture, brought to you by NT Greek Tutoring, the place for personalized Greek learning in your spare time. I'm your host, Daniel Mikkelsen, the founder of NT Greek Tutoring and a PhD candidate in New Testament and Christian Origins at University of Edinburgh. And this podcast exists to make gems for biblical studies accessible to everyday Christians and show how the biblical languages opens up scripture. And our aim is to increase your love for God and His word so that you become more joyful witnesses for His mission. And today I am joined by Seth Postell. He's back for another episode on how we should understand the Torah. Seth is a messianic Jew who is the Dean of Studies at Israel College of the Bible in Netanya, Israel. if you're joining us for the first time and you didn't see the first episode or the first part of this podcast, I would recommend that you go back and watch the other episode with Seth. Seth and I will talk a little bit more broadly about these questions because this episode is going to build on that episode. So this episode is going to go into more details on the matters we talked about in the other episode of the part one. And hopefully it will be very exciting to see a little bit deeper what the goal of the Torah is and how that and the New Testament and why it relates to... Is the New Testament using the Old Testament in creative way or is it actually a careful reading of it. I'm very excited about this and welcome back Seth. I'm very honored to have you back here. Thank you so much. It's great to be back, Daniel. Thank you so much. Yeah, and thank you for coming. Anything else you want to add before we jump into some questions? Well, you know, I guess I'm privileged to work in a place that, you know, Israel College of the Bible is part of the umbrella of one for Israel. And what I love about our college, especially at such a time as this, is that we have Jewish and Arab students that love Yeshua, that love Jesus. And we have ministry to both Israelis that are that, you know, Jewish Israelis, Arab Israelis. We also do outreach to Arabs in the Middle East. And so we really do cherish and value the power of the gospel. And we see it at work around us. And I would imagine that your viewers typically tend to see things here in Israel from the perspective of media. But as somebody who is here, we are seeing that God very much is at work. in this land and we're thankful for that. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, and you have lots of stuff on your YouTube channel as well, one for Israel. Yeah, talking about how God is doing his work and he's reaching out and making people see who Jesus really is. Yeah. Yeah, so just wanted to give a shout out for that as well, In our previous episode, we looked a little bit at the structure of the Torah and how that pointed to the need of a savior and some aspects of on how Paul looks at the law. But maybe we could go a couple of steps deeper, maybe on both of these aspects. So just the first part, I think that many Christians find it difficult to see how the Torah points to a savior apart from maybe a few places in the Torah such as Genesis 14, 15, like 3, 14, 15, 16. And then Genesis 22 probably with Isaac and the goat. And then maybe Genesis 39 with the prophecy about who Judah will be in the future. Yeah, 49, yeah. Did I say 39? I'm sorry. So I had it right here in my notes. Apparently I said it wrong. Anyway. And then maybe Deuteronomy 18 about Moses. But apart from that, how is it even possible to find Jesus when we read Moses? Yeah. So let me just simply say, methodologically speaking, and this may sound surprising to some, think probably it's not best to talk about Jesus in the Torah. Uh, it's better to talk about the Messiah in the Torah or the messianic hope in the Torah. Um, and you know, and, and, and, and basically there, there are two arguments that need to be, to be made here and many people can conflate the two. The first argument is, the Torah actually speak about, you know, a savior? Is there some, a hope in a future redeemer? And then the second question is, is that redeemer Jesus? Right? And so I think the case that the New Testament is making is that Jesus is that promised redeemer. The New Testament does assume, however, that the Torah is anticipating the coming of a Messiah and a redeemer. Hmm. the rest of the Hebrew Bible. And so when I talk about the Torah then, I'm not necessarily arguing, although I agree, or I believe that Jesus is the Messiah. When I talk about the Torah now, I'm not necessarily saying, I'm not trying to prove that Jesus is the Messiah. I'm just simply arguing that the Torah does have a category or does have a very developed eschatology. And what I would just simply say is just a couple of things. And again, To develop this argument would take not just one podcast, it would probably take years, okay? But if you look at the way that the Torah, kind of the structure of the Torah, the introduction of the Torah, [Genesis] 1 through 11, you have this, you already have an anticipation of exile because of disobedience, right? And so Adam and Eve disobey and they're exiled out of the promised land and their descendants end up in Babylon, Genesis chapter 11. You come to the end of the Torah, Deuteronomy, really Deuteronomy 29 to Deuteronomy 34. And again, there's this really a very strong focus on exile, the certainty of exile because of disobedience. you know, and Deuteronomy 30 takes for granted that Israel is going to be exiled, not just to Babylon, but to all nations. Okay. In other words, there's an anticipation, not just of an exile there. Well, and then in Deuteronomy 32, again, an anticipation that Israel will break the covenant, the Sinai covenant. Deuteronomy 32, the Song of Moses is filled with expectation that Israel is going to be brought into the land and they're going to disobey and they're going to be exiled. Okay? So within the context of this emphasis on exile, the question then becomes, okay, so what is Israel's hope? Is Israel's hope going to be in law keeping? Is Israel's hope going to be in obedience to God? And we find out both in, I would argue in Genesis 30 and in Genesis chapter three, verse 15. And again, it's a longer argument to be made, but that the seed of the woman in the context of the unfolding plan of redemption in Genesis, the seed of the woman is a line. chosen line that ultimately leads to this king from the tribe of Judah. Okay, and that is very much reflected in the genealogical structure of Genesis, which is constantly looking for a chosen seed and through this seed God is going to bless as opposed to curse. He's going to give abundant seed, right, as opposed to difficulties in childbirth and pain in childbirth, and he's going to bring them into the land as opposed to exiling from the land. So that's how the Torah begins with this certainty of exile, but this hope in a promised seed. You come to the end of the Torah and you have this hope of a regathering. You have a hope of a transformed heart. Deuteronomy 30 talks about this transformed heart in terms of a circumcised heart. When God regathers the people, when they obey the Lord, they're going to have a circumcised heart, which I would argue again, is exactly where Ezekiel, exactly where Jeremiah get their eschatology of a new covenant. They're getting it from Moses. By the way, Romans chapter 10, when Paul cites Deuteronomy 30, he's not doing what you would call extra Jesus. He's actually, He's understood Deuteronomy 30 as an eschatological passage. Now what's interesting, he talks about the gospel I'm preaching. He's talking about a gospel that refers to Jesus. And you look back in Deuteronomy 30, you say, where's Jesus? Well, if Israel is going to be exiled into all the nations, the implicit anticipation is that Israel is going to need a prophet like Moses, a redeemer like Moses. who's going to be greater than Moses, who's going to regather them from all nations. Isaiah chapter 11. If you look at Isaiah chapter 11 in this messianic prophecy about this coming child, right from the house of David, as you continue on in the passage, there's a reference to a regathering of Israel from all nations. the drying up of the sea of Egypt so that they'll walk over it. And then the singing of a song, you know, the Lord is my salvation, right? And what you see there is a new Exodus. Isaiah, it looks at the Messiah, describes him like a new Moses who's going to do a new Exodus. Where is he getting that from? Again, I would argue it's built into the fabric of the Torah. this understanding that Israel is going to disobey, this understanding that our hope is not going to be in our disobedience, but in God's faithfulness, this anticipation of a chosen line, and then this anticipation of a coming redeemer. I could keep going and say that even Genesis, the way that I understand the book of Genesis, it's not really a book, it's a prequel. All of Genesis is a prequel. to the story of Moses and Israel. And so all the main characters in the book of Genesis, including God, in some form or fashion are paralleled with Moses. In other words, we typically think of the Torah as the story of Israel, but I would argue that the Torah, yes, is the story of Israel, specifically as it relates to Moses. Moses is the mighty redeemer. is the great, he's not perfect. but he's the great redeemer. And so all these figures that prefigure Moses and Genesis, you've got Noah saved in an Ark, just like Moses saved in an Ark, right? You've got Abraham and his role of bringing Sarah out of Egypt after plagues on Egypt. That's Moses. You've got Joseph, who's raised up a slave in Egypt, like Moses, who becomes mighty and is a redeemer. of his people like Moses. You've got Jacob, who at the end of his life is talking about what God's going to do in the last days, and he's blessing the people. It's exactly what happens at the end of the Torah with Moses, who's telling the people what's going to happen in the last days. And so I would argue that, you know, this whole notion of a prophet like Moses, this whole notion of the certainty of exile, And this whole notion of a regathering and a promise of a circumcised heart all relates back to this hope of one who will be like Moses, but even far greater than Moses. And so in that sense, I see that the very fabric of the Torah is messianic. And I would argue that the prophets are reading it in the very same way. And so the eschatology of Isaiah taken from the Torah, the eschatology of Jeremiah, taken from the Torah, the eschatology of Ezekiel taken from the Torah. They were reading the Torah and understood that Israel's futures tied specifically to the Messiah and to the new covenant. Where did they get that from? They were reading Moses. Hmm. Yeah. That's, yeah, I think that that's very helpful to sort of like look at that. So and you've made a couple of examples. Well, but can you like, maybe take a couple and then flash them out a little bit more so that maybe if someone is like a little bit skeptical about whether this works or not. Yeah, so again, let's just go back to Isaiah. I'm not reading now the Torah, but what I'm arguing is that Isaiah's depiction of the Messiah here is built on the Torah. And so if you look at Isaiah chapter 11, like all the traditional interpreters, Jewish and Christian would argue that this passage is about the future of the future Messiah. What's really interesting about the future Messiah in Isaiah chapter 11 is that if you look at this Messiah, he's kind of restoring the Garden of Eden. And this is something that is actually well recognized. So the imagery of bringing peace to the animals and restoring shalom between the animals, that's very much a new Adam theme. But what's really interesting is if you go down you know, if you look down at verse 10, okay? And it says, it's at this, at that time, a root from Jesse will stand like a signal flag for the nations. Nations will look to him for guidance and his residents will be majestic. And so says, at that time, again, the time of this root of Jesse, the Lord will lift his hand to reclaim the, sorry, the Lord will again lift his hand to reclaim the remnant of his people. Now you say, when was the first time? Verse 16 tells us. In other words, it's very clear, just as there was for Israel when they went up from the land of Egypt. In other words, Isaiah is talking about a new Exodus. Okay, there's no question here that he's talking about a new Exodus. And in the context of speaking about the Messiah, surely he's talking then about the relationship between the Messiah and the new Moses. Okay, at that time, verse 11, the Lord will again, lift his hand to reclaim the remnant of his people from Assyria, Egypt, Pathos, Kush, Elam, Shinar, Hamat, and the sea coasts, okay? If you look down at verse 12, and he will lift the signal for the nations, he will gather Israel's dispersed people and assemble Judas gathered people from the four corners of the earth. Where is this from? This is exactly from Deuteronomy chapter 30 and the dispersing of Israel. Also Deuteronomy chapter four. Verses, I believe it's verse 25 through 30 talks about a miraculous regathering of the people of God in the last days. If you go down now to verse 15, the Lord will divide the Gulf of the Egyptian sea and wave his hand over the Euphrates River and will send a strong wind. He will turn it into seven dried up streams and enable them to walk across in their sandles. The drying up of the Euphrates River here. is depicted just like the splitting of the Red Sea. Verse 16, there will be a highway leading out of Egypt for the remnant of the people, just as there was for Israel when they went up from the land of Egypt. Now notice this, it's really amazing. If you look at the song that they're gonna sing in Isaiah 12, at that time you will say, I praise you, O Lord, for even though you are angry with me, your anger subsided and consoled me. Verse two, look, God is my deliverer. I will trust in him and fear for the and not fear for the Lord gives me strength and protects me. He has become my deliverer. The word, the reference here to the Lord becoming my strength and my protection and my deliverer is taken exactly. It's remarkable. This is taken from Exodus chapter 15 in the song of the sea. And so what we have here again is a reference to a new Exodus. They're expecting a new Moses and a new Exodus. Later on in Isaiah 40 through 55, Isaiah's new Exodus, and it describes the servant of the Lord as this new Moses that's going to regather the people and redeem the people. Again, where is this hope coming from? I would argue that the prophets have been reading the Torah. They've been meditating on those passages of the certainty of Israel's exile. They've been meditating on those passages where Israel will be scattered to the four corners. They're meditating on those passages of the hope of a coming seed, a mighty seed who will bring blessing and defeat Israel's enemies. And so, yes, I would say that here are some concrete examples of the prophets looking back at the Torah and reading it eschatologically. And the first Exodus then becomes a paradigm. and the first Moses becomes paradigmatic of a future Exodus and a future Moses. Yeah, yeah, that's helpful. And also, as we were looking at it, I was thinking, maybe people would say that it is, or the coming back with like, Nehemiah and Ezra and Zerubbabel in, but the thing is that there was no like, Moses-like figure in that period. Well, actually there was, Sorry to interrupt the episode, but if you're enjoying the content, please consider subscribing and leaving a like. It really helps the algorithm and helps the podcast grow. Thank you for your support and now back to the episode. as we were looking at it, I was thinking, maybe people would say that it is, or the coming back with like, Nehemiah and Ezra and Zerubbabel in, but the thing is that there was no like, Moses-like figure in that period. Well, actually there was, and that's exactly the point is that Ezra is a Moses like figure. He is. And many scholars have noticed a parallel between Israel's return through Cyrus to the land of Judah. And they've understood it in Ezra Nehemiah as a kind of a new Exodus, but not the new Exodus. In other words, it... they're still under occupation. so Nehemiah's prayer in Nehemiah chapter nine, it's as if the new Exodus hasn't, know, they're still under occupation. Where are the promises to the house of David when they are under the thumb of the Persians? And so this theme of new Exodus, it's so common all throughout scripture. And we see that again, And by the way, I would argue, and this is where maybe some of your viewers may disagree with me. I argue that Jesus is the new Moses, but the new Exodus has not happened yet. I don't believe the new Exodus is spiritual or only spiritual. In other words, people, lot of people that would believe say that the church has replaced Israel or the church is Israel. would see that the redemption is a spiritual redemption from sin. That's a part of it. But if you look at, for instance, the book of Revelation, the way that John describes the future with the plagues, all the plagues that are falling on humanity are the same, they're escalations of the plagues on Egypt. In other words, for John, the new Exodus hasn't happened yet. The new Moses has come. And we know who the new Moses is, he's Jesus. But I actually believe that there's going to be a future redemption, a mighty redemption, which is going to be, I believe that God's going to ultimately redeem Israel nationally and spiritually. And also God is going to bless the nations through that redemption. And so while the while the church, Jews and Gentiles enjoy the spiritual benefits of the new Moses, I believe that there's a very physical component to our redemption. Our longing is not to go to heaven. Our longing is for Jesus to return. Our hope is not to die. There's hope in death, but our hope is not to die. Our hope is to rise again. And to rise again, we believe that Jesus is coming back. And so therefore, I see the new Exodus still as a very much a future hope. And we're waiting for that new Exodus to take place. Yeah. I think that that's very helpful. I actually think that there is an element, like for example, me, Zechariah 12 is quite an important prophecy to me and how to like, understand this, because there is this element of Jerusalem being like this stone you ripped yourself to blood on in the last days. And then the element of of a revival amongst Israel as the people, the Jews, that that would and they will look to me, the Lord says, the God says that, his covenant name is used there, is Yahweh, and he says, and they will look to me whom they have pierced. You know what? I got to say something, Daniel. you are, you are, you're, you're very, very right. And you may even be even far more right than you even realized or intended to be because Zachariah 14 then talks about the Lord coming to fight on that day. The language there of the Lord fighting for his people has taken exactly from Exodus 14. It's the language of a new Exodus. And then God splits. the Mount of Olives in two so that the people pass through, which is exactly a reference to the splitting of the Reed Sea and the plundering of the nations. And so even there, if you look at Zechariah 12 in the context of Zechariah 14 and the Lord coming to fight for his people, once again, we don't believe this has happened yet. And so in this sense, We're longing for this new Exodus and we see again that this hope of this new Exodus is taken from the first Exodus. The first Exodus is eschatological. It is intended to point forward. That's why in Matthew Jesus is described as a new Moses. That's why in the Gospel of John, Jesus is described as a new Moses. There's a very good reason that Jesus' first sign is a parallel or an inversion to Moses's first plague or the first plague through Moses. Rather than water to blood, we have water to wine. And so I would, again, I would say that the New Testament authors are reading the Torah, not only the Torah as Torah, they're also reading it through the perspective of the lenses of the prophetic interpretation of the Torah that gives us this full-blown eschatology of a future Exodus and a new Moses who's divine. Yes, yeah, I very much agree with that and I think as a New Testament scholar, I've also sometimes wondered why people seem to misunderstand Paul's... he is saying that the Gentiles are engraved into the olive tree of Israel. yeah, grafted in exactly, so it's the grafting in, so it's not replacing Israel, it's becoming part of Israel. Correct. Israel is both ethnical Jews and Gentile. Well, okay. So here's where we would probably disagree. I would say, I don't see Israel as the church or Israel as Jews and Gentiles. I actually do believe that the Torah and the prophets have a really beautiful perspective of the redemption of Israel in all nations. Okay. I don't see the nations becoming Israel. Mm. I don't think Paul does either. And in fact, in Ephesians, when it talks about the Gentiles, they're grafted in, they're brought in, they're partakers, they're full partakers of God's promises to his people, but it doesn't mean that they've become Israel. Okay. At least that's how I don't see the church or Gentiles needing to become spiritual Israel as if Israel is is better than any other people. In other words, I believe it or not, you're going to find this difficult. know this is going to sound hard to imagine what I'm about to say, but God loves the Danish as much as he loves the Jews. I know that might be hard for you to imagine right now. Right. And so again, I would see that Israel is in, is what God does for Israel. He does at, at, at his faithfulness to Israel is part of his faithfulness. to who he is in his character to all nations. So I don't see the church as Israel. I see the church as comprised of right now, a remnant of Israel, the Jewish people, and a remnant of people from all nations. And one day, you know, all nations coming up to Israel. Physically, again, why do I believe physically? It's interesting, people wanna spiritualize away the land, but Micah, you know, in the New Testament, Micah, you know, there's an appeal to Micah chapter five to say that the Messiah will be born in Bethlehem. Well, why is it then that Micah chapter five is literal Bethlehem? And then in the same book, the minor prophets, the 12, the Mount of Olives in Zechariah 14 is not real. On what exegetical basis would we ever suggest that why would the Messiah come to a real Bethlehem, a literal Bethlehem, but not return to a literal Mount of Olives? And so again, I don't think, I get the position that believes that all believers are Israel, but I think that you have to read that into, you have to almost come to the text, with that perspective, but the eschatology of the prophets, the eschatology of Moses is sufficient. By the way, and I can even say that's really interesting, the way that Paul quotes Deuteronomy 32:43, it's amazing.

In Deuteronomy 32: 29:40

43, you've got this call of the nations, you know, rejoicing with God's people. And I don't want to get into even there the translation of it. The Septuagint says, rejoice O nations with his people. Okay. Where the nations and his people are two separate categories, but they're rejoicing together over what God has done. When Paul quotes that passage in Romans chapter 12, he quotes it as a plea for Jews and Gentiles to get along together in the church, except one another. as the Messiah has accepted you for just as it is written.

Then he quotes Deuteronomy 32: 30:24

43, rejoice O nations with his people. In other words, I see that there's not a replacing of, there's a side by side, there's not an abolition of Israel. There's not a disappearing of the ethnic distinction of Israel, nor is there a disappearing of the ethnic distinction of any other nation. It's through Jesus, we all become sons of Abraham, both physically and spiritually, but we're all sons of Abraham. We all receive of the blessings. Jews as Jews through Jesus, Gentiles as Gentiles through Jesus, and we become one in the Messiah. So that's exactly, that's how I understand things. Sure, and I don't think we disagree as much as you may think. Because I find that is only spiritual a little bit peculiar. I understand something about the whole thing about, I think my quotation of like, Zechariah is that there is something about the Ethnic Israel. I just don't know how to word it because the normal category if you put things into doesn't actually work. So either we end up in replacement theology or we end up with dispensationalists. And I don't know if any of them actually works. I think that they're problematic, both of them. And again, I think that I think that I think what you're describing, okay, I think what you're describing, and I'm refreshed by it anyway. And that is Hmm. I think a growing realization, and I'm encouraged by it really, there has to be a future place for the people of Israel. And when we eliminate that category or we redefine the category, we do great injustice to many, many, texts of the Bible. Romans chapter 11, it's amazing. Paul says, They are enemies of the gospel. Who's he talking about? Who are the enemies of the gospel in the context? It has to be Israel. They are enemies of the gospel for your sake, for your benefit. Paul explained it earlier in chapter 11. What does it mean? Through Israel's rejection, salvation has come to the Gentiles. In other words, they are enemies for your benefit, but for the sake of the fathers, or for the sake of the fathers, or they are beloved in terms of election, they're beloved for the sake of the fathers. Well, how can they be loved and chosen and elected if they're enemies of the gospel? It means that there has to be a real category of God continuing to affirm his covenantal promises. to Israel even though they haven't yet accepted Jesus as their Messiah. And so here we see again that there is a place, there is a hope for Israel. And I would argue then that that's the Torah's, the Abrahamic covenant, the promises to Abraham. Why do I need to replace Israel when there's a place for the nations? Hmm, yeah. Right? Everybody's included. So why would I want to replace Israel? And by the way, I must say from Jewish perspective, you know, the way I look at things, you know, if, if the church replaces Israel, right? If God, if God has rejected Israel or replaced Israel or redefined Israel, then The Messiah Jesus is good news for every people on the planet except the Jews. And so then we end up as a people just continuing to suffer persecution and hatred because we're Jewish, even though the church is supposedly the true spiritual Israel. If that's the case, why are we still hated? Why are we still persecuted? Right? There's a very famous line in The Fiddler on the Roof, where Tevye says to God, he says, I know we're the chosen people, but couldn't you choose somebody else for a change? Right? And I would argue with all the hatred that's even going on today and all the anti-Semitism, you know, how do you explain this? You know, how do you explain this? What's remarkable is while the church is insisting, many people the church is insisting, that the Gentiles that believe in Jesus are the true Jews, it seems that the Muslims at least get right the fact that Israel and the Jews are truly and really Israel and the Jews, and they hate us for it. Hmm. Right. So anyway. Yeah, there's lots of things to unpack in that. And also, I want to, before we move, I want to also say that people seem to want to quote Paul from Galatians saying that there's no Jew, no Gentile, no slave for free. And then they stop there and they say that there's, they, that means that there's no distinction ever that doesn't exist anymore. But then they forget to say that there is male and female and then they, like, suddenly the hermeneutical shifts and male or female, of course, that's not abolished. Well, actually what you could do is just remove all the signs off the bathrooms in the churches and then it solves that problem too. So if you're going to take that interpretation seriously, then let's abolish those distinctions. But then Paul ends up contradicting himself where he talks about gender roles. Yeah, exactly. So my point is that that is bad exegesis. Yeah, so that was just like my point and I think that that speaks into the things we've just been talking about. But as we maybe move back into the Torah and the use of the Torah, I remember in the last episode you mentioned these poems in the end of the narrative sections that points towards eschatological curses and blessings such as Genesis 49, now I said it correctly this time, and Numbers 24 and the section in Deuteronomy from chapter 31 to 33. How are these showing us that Jesus are coming or the Messiah are coming as you clarified earlier in this episode? Yes. going into a few details, more details than you did last time. Well, let's just look for just a really, one of the things that I like to do when we talk about people kind of scratch their heads about the New Testament use of the Old Testament. But I think before we even get there, we have to talk about the Old Testament use of the Old Testament. And here's what's really interesting. So in Genesis 49 verse one, It says this, you know, then Jacob summoned his sons and said, assemble yourselves that I may tell you what will befall you. Now in the new American standard, it says in the days to come, but the Hebrew says, bəʾaḥarīt hayyāmīm in the last days. Now, if you go then down to verse eight, it says something interesting. It says Judah, your brothers will praise you. Your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies. Your father's son shall bow down to you. Verse nine, Judah's alliance. Well, from the praying, my son, you've gone up. He couches, lies down as a lion, and as a lion who dares rouse him up. Verse 10, here's a reference to this king. The scepter shall not depart from Judah nor the ruler's staff from between his feet until, now the New American Standard says Shiloh comes, but another, probably a more likely translation is until the one to whom it belongs comes, and to him shall be the obedience of the people. But verse 11 is really important. It says that he ties his his foal to the vine and his donkey's colt to the choice vine. He washes his garment and wine and his robes in the blood of grapes. What's remarkable here is you've got a reference to a king who's going to be coming and it refers to a foal. Okay. And it talks about the son of or a donkey's colt. Now, what's remarkable is there's only one other place in all of scripture that has a reference to a king coming, okay, the coming of a king on a foal and on a, what did I say here? A foal and a donkey's colt. And let me just read it for you. I'm just opening up my Bible here. I had it here open. Let me see here. I'm in the New American Standard. Rejoice, I'm in Zechariah 9,9, rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, shout and triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem, behold, your king is coming to you. He is just and endowed with endowed with salvation, humble and mounted on a donkey, on a colt, same word, the foal of a donkey. Now what's remarkable here is that, and not just me, people like Michael Fishbane and other Jewish scholars and other Christian scholars, have noticed that what you have here is very unique language in Zechariah about the coming of a king on a foal on on on colt of a donkey. And you say, where else in the entire Hebrew Bible does this promise appear? And he says, your king is coming, which means Zechariah assumes that they know which king he's talking about. What king is he talking about? The one in Genesis chapter 49. This is the king that's coming. that Jacob prophesied about that would come in the last days. And so here we have a classic example of a poem in the Torah that is also understood to be messianic by a later prophet. Hmm. Well, that's fascinating. And then that's very clearly picked up in the New Testament as Jesus is the only Messiah figure in that period of the many, many of like Messiah figures. There were lots of people who claimed to be the Messiah at that period. And he is the only one that comes into Jerusalem riding on a colt, like a foal, yeah, where like the probably more famous example of another messiah-like figure in that time is Bar Kokhba and he comes in on a horse. Interesting. Interesting. yeah. So I think that that's quite unique. So that's how the New Testament picks up on that language that Zechariah picks up on from the Torah. And I've not seen that. So thank you for pointing that out. So that's the three steps that happens here. Because we have lots of messianic figures in that period. Even Josephus is talking about that lots of people claim to be the Messiah. But the only one The only movement that succeeded is the Jesus movement. Yes, yes, absolutely. And again, I think that one of the things that we see is the ways in which sometimes if we we fail to see the prophetic interpretation of the Torah, we can easily, or the Old Testament's interpretation of the Old Testament, if we miss that, many times we assume that the New Testament is getting, is missing something or twisting something or adding something or changing something or superimposing something. But John Salham, my PhD mentor, would say all the time that we'll never really understand the New Testament's use of the Old Testament until we have a category for understanding the Old Testament's use of the Old Testament. Hmm, yeah. That's helpful. Do you have one more example like that where you see how the Old Testament is using the Torah? so yeah, absolutely. So if you look at, yeah, let me just, I'll go to one passage. I mean, we could go to others as well, but in Isaiah 65 verse 25, okay? And Isaiah 65, it's really important to say that Isaiah 65 verse five is actually a citation of Isaiah 11 verse six, okay? So I you notice. The wolf and the lamb will graze together. This is Isaiah 65 verse 25. The wolf and the lamb will graze together and the lion will eat straw like the ox. And the dust will be for the serpent's food. I'm going to come back to this. They will do no evil or harm in all my holy mountain says the Lord. Now, if we go back to Isaiah chapter 11 verse six, it says, and the wolf will dwell with the lamb and the leopard will lie with the young goat and the calf and the young lion and the fat link together. and a little boy will lead them. Also the cow and the bear will graze, their young will lie down together and the lion will eat straw like the ox." Okay, it's really remarkable. And then it goes down to, you know, in verse nine, you know, it talks about this child on the whole of a cobra and then they will not hurt, they will not destroy my holy mountain. So there's no question Isaiah 65 picks up, you know, Isaiah chapter 11, and we know in Isaiah chapter 11 that it's a messianic passage. There's no question about it. And so here we see at the end of the book, Isaiah taking a messianic passage, blatantly and explicitly new creation passage, but then he adds a very interesting sentence. He says, you know, again, and dust will be the serpent's food. Where is he getting that from? Where is he getting that from? He's taking it from Genesis chapter three, verse 14. Genesis chapter three, verse 14, the Lord said to the serpent, because you have done this, cursed are you more than all cattle and more than every beast of the field on your belly you will go and dust you will eat all the days of your life. And so here we have a classic example of Isaiah using Genesis chapter three, and you know, there's this argument, you know, many people would argue that, you know, this promise of the, you know, the seed of the woman, the seed of the serpent, there's nothing messianic or eschatological about it, that it's just about people and snakes. But if that's the case, then why does Isaiah take a passage and take that first creation passage and the fall and the vanquish of the serpent? as something that will take place one day when the Messiah comes in the kingdom. And so once again, we've got an inter-biblical interpretation that basically shows us that when John in the book of Revelation, when he interprets Genesis 3.15 eschatologically, he's not being creative or allegorical in his exegesis. He's reading Genesis 3.15 not only within its immediate context, but also through the grid and the lenses of the prophetic interpretation of that passage. Hmm. Yeah, that's very helpful. And it's very clear if you read through Genesis and you come to this passage, the only thing you would think of is the serpent. Correct, and what's interesting is what you have too is a splitting because in Isaiah chapter 11 it talks about a young child, okay, which could very well be Genesis 3.15 and the child. And then in Isaiah 65 verse 25 it brings in the other component and that is what about the serpent? And so again, you see the ways in which the prophets are interpreting the Torah. And you realize that they understood the Torah as a messianic book, an eschatological book. Hmm. Yeah, that's fascinating. And yeah, an eye opening as well, because you have like professional scholars who say that, that we don't have much picked up on, especially the like creation and, and fall narrative to use the Augustinian language before, like in the intertestement period. I've read that recently, but clearly that's not what is happening. Correct. No, absolutely. Genesis, you look at these early narratives in Genesis and they become very critical to the eschatology of other, you know, other prophets as well. Hmm. Yeah, so And I was thinking that I have quite a few questions that we could delve into. But I think one of the things that I would like to see is that, so one of the major themes we already talked a lot about this is that in the Torah we have the exile and due to disobedience they will be exiled, the people Israel, and then they will be followed by a hope of restoration. And how does this pattern points to the Messiah or to Yesuah as the one that is the one who is actually bringing true restoration. Because one could say that there is restoration happening after the exile, but you say okay, they're still under the Persians thumb, but how does that kind of work? Maybe explain a little bit more. Okay, maybe ask the question again, because I'm not entirely certain I followed the question. So one of the major themes in the Torah is exile due to disobedience. that following that there will be a hope of restoration. And how does this pattern within the Torah ultimately point to Yeshua or to the Messiah? And as the one who brings that true restoration. Yes. So again, if you look at the New Exodus theme, it's really clear that you see that Israel is going to be brought back and who's going to bring them back. And we looked at it, Isaiah chapter 11, the Messiah, the new Moses. If you look at Isaiah 52 verses 12 through 50, and it's a really interesting passage. you look at, I'll just take you there really quickly. Isaiah 52. Verse 10, and I just want to say this, that in the context of Isaiah's New Exodus, you come to the fourth and final servant song, which begins in 52 verse 13. Okay? And what's really remarkable, and it's incredibly remarkable, is that in 52 verse 10, you know, it says, Lord has bared his holy arm in the sight of all nations, that all the ends of the earth may see the salvation of our God. Well, that's an... That's an allusion to it's very, it's an allusion to the first Exodus, Exodus 14.13. Okay, so here we have the climax of Isaiah's new Exodus is citing passages from the climax of Israel's first Exodus. Isaiah 52 verse 11, depart, depart, go out from there. The language of going out from there, Exodus 12, again, Exodus 12. is also part of the grand finale of Israel's Exodus. 52 verse 12, for you will not go out in haste. An allusion again to the story, Exodus chapter 12 verse 11, going out in haste, for the Lord will go before you. The reference to the Lord going before you is taken from Exodus 13 verse 21. Then it says, and the God of Israel will be your rear guard. which is an allusion to God going behind them in Exodus 14 verse 19. So follow me here now, because it's really important. So here we come to the conclusion of Isaiah's New Exodus, which is citing passages from the conclusion to the first Exodus. And in the context, verse 13, behold, my servant will prosper. He will be high and lifted up and greatly. exalted. Well, if we're following Isaiah's use of the analogy, we know exactly the passages he's looking at. He's looking at Isaiah at Exodus 12, 13, and 14. And the grand finale of the grand finale of the first Exodus appears in Exodus 14 verse 31. When Israel saw the great power which the Lord had used against the Egyptians, the people feared the Lord and they believed in the Lord and in his servant Moses. Okay. And so what we have here is a direct parallel between the exalted servant in the final servant song and the exaltation of Moses in the new Exodus, followed by Isaiah 54 after the fourth servant song, after the first, the fourth. servant song, the exaltation of the servant, you've got Israel singing this song of redemption, shout for joy, which is a parallel to Exodus chapter 15 in the song of the sea. And so what I would argue again is that the prophets clearly had a very well-defined understanding that the first Exodus needed a Moses. The new Exodus is going to need a greater than Moses. Hmm, yeah. Yeah, that's fascinating. I also noticed that in the first Exodus they had to go in haste. In this case, they're not. Correct, it's gonna be a greater Exodus. And by the way, this is also one of the reasons why I don't believe that this new Exodus has happened yet. In other words, Isaiah 53, it's really interesting. People wanna argue that Isaiah 53 is a prophecy about Israel's rejection of the Messiah, but it's technically not. Isaiah 53 is a prophecy of Israel realizing they were wrong about the Messiah. and they've come to understand that in fact it was him, he was the one, the one we rejected is the one that died for our sins. And so Isaiah 53 as part of this new Exodus is a future hope of Israel finally coming to realize that Jesus is the Messiah. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I also think that there is... It makes very good sense to talk about the Exodus as Jesus coming back. Yes. That makes very good sense to me that that kind of language and what happens in the actual Exodus looks lot more like the prophecies about Jesus' than it looks as his first coming and like you can say the building of the church or the assembly of God, however you want to translate that. Yeah, no, I think one of the problems oftentimes with replacement theology too, is it spiritualizes everything physical. Like it's almost like it almost becomes Gnosticism where flesh is bad and spirit is good. And so why would we long for the return of Jesus and the bodily resurrection? Cause we're all going to die and go to heaven. Now, do I believe that absence from the body is presence with the Lord? Of course I do. Is there hope in death? Of course I do. But My hope is and my prayer is thy kingdom come not to thine kingdom go. Yes, very much so. I think that that's a very, very good point as well. Obviously, my PhD work is on resurrection in Paul, particularly, and I could go on forever on that. But I think that there is a problem within the English language and the way we talk about heaven and souls in relation to like Christian language that we simply make things look like that we are like abandoning the body and stuff like that. Even the way we translate that the apostolic creed is very problematic because we say that we believe in the resurrection of the body but the apostolic creed is actually both in the Greek prequel to it is sarx but also in the latin version it's cara so the resurrection of the flesh wow, interesting, I didn't know that. It's a thing I'm talking to a New Testament scholar, because I didn't know that. No, but I because the Danish translation is accurate actually so that when you say that apostolic creed in Danish churches You do say that we believe in the resurrection of the flesh But when we do that in the English language, it's usually the resurrection of the body. But the problem is that that is why we have kind of had this like platonically spiritualized language about We talk about the salvation of their souls Yes, the Bible talks about that, but sometimes soul is used as life and some of these passages within in the New Testament may not refer like Specifically to the soul some of them does we have to look at the specific context to make sense of that so I Feel like we sometimes have like over spiritualized it because of the way we phrase the language we say we're going to heaven but my suspicion is that that heaven within an ancient language is not quite what we think of it to be. yeah. I think to a certain extent too, we have layers upon layers and layers of at times a theology that we've always assumed to be true. It's kind of an inherited theology rather than an exegetical theology. And I think that that's part of problem. I can give you one more example and I'm actually looking at the clock and I may need to go soon too, but. Mm-hmm. I was, I was, you know, I give you another example and that is that, you know, this whole notion that, you know, the new covenant has been fulfilled. And I think that that also it's really like that, that the new covenant is spiritualized so that it, it's, it no longer includes anything for Israel. It's the churches. And I think the problem here is like, just, if you look at The covenant that God made with Abraham in Genesis chapter 15, God made the covenant. The covenant was ratified in Genesis 15, but it doesn't mean that Abraham received all the promises of that covenant immediately. He had to wait in faith. He was still living as a sojourner in the land. The nations hadn't been blessed yet. He didn't even have a child. And so the covenant was established and he lived. as you know, in faith and in hope that that covenant would be completely, all the promises and provisions of that covenant would be fulfilled. So the fact that Jesus made a new covenant with us, with the apostles, in Matthew chapter 26, that doesn't mean that all the promises have been fulfilled because we're still waiting in faith. part of the hope of the new covenant is the return of Jesus, is the establishment of the kingdom. And so we enjoy the spiritual blessings of the new covenant, the forgiveness of sins. We celebrate that. We celebrate the fact that the law is written on our hearts when we come to faith in Jesus. But we still live in faith that the fullness of the new covenant will come to pass. And this is where I would argue that the fullness of the new covenant involves the salvation of Israel, it involves the salvation of the Jewish people as well. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense I think it is very concrete. So like when in the Beatitudes Jesus talks about you should inherit the earth, I think that's very concrete. That's an expansion of the land promise. I think that's an expansion of the land promise, really. And that goes to, we can say, the church, including all the people that might be in the church. Sure, well again, God's gonna redeem the world. Yeah, God's gonna redeem the world. Exactly. Because that's the world he created. Correct. And it's good. It's very good. yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. I don't know if we have time for it because I think there's a question that sometimes is bagging within this conversation about... But if the law kills, we talked a lot about that last time, and points to the Messiah, which we've been talking lot about now. But what is the use of the law now after Jesus took its curses for us and fulfilled it? Yeah. So I would just simply say this, you know, a discussion of the law is kind of nuanced. It's highly nuanced because I don't think that there's one size fits all. And so I think that, you know, as I understand the Torah, I understand all of the Torah as scripture. Jesus even elevates it. He says not a single yod or a single tug will be removed until it's all fulfilled. And so You know, Jesus has a very high view of inspiration, but so does Paul. All scripture is inspired. And then he goes on to say, and useful and profitable, right? In other words, even though we're no longer under the Sinai covenant in terms of a legal, illegally binding law code upon the believer, that the commandments of the Sinai covenant and the narrative about the Sinai covenant are all part of our scripture and every aspect of the scripture, all the yods and all the tags, every jot, every tittle. And so we meditate on all of scripture. We meditate on the Torah. We meditate on its narratives. We meditate on its commandments and it has all sorts of applications and all sorts of uses. for the man of God to be instructed as Paul talks about. And so we can look at the mitzvot, the commandments as wisdom. We can look at the commandments as pointing to something greater. We can look at the commandments as a shadow of greater things. We can look at the commandments as God's wisdom. We can look at the commandments and learn, you get a sense of love. We can look at the commandments and get a deeper theology of that God is holy, that God is righteous, that God is good, that God hates evil. We can look at the commandments and see God's grace. And so we can look at the commandments and see our condemnation. I fall short. And so I would simply say that we're no longer under the Sinai covenant. Right? I'm no longer under the Sinai covenant. don't have to, you know, separate my fabric on my clothing, right? I'm not under the jurisdiction of the Sinai covenant that was made at a different time during a theocracy, right? We live in very different times today. We're no longer in the conditions. We're out of the ancient Near East where many of these laws now would not really apply to a new situation, you know, that was designed for a theocracy in the ancient Near East. But that said, every single one of these laws is scripture for us to meditate on. Every one of these scriptures, we can hear God, we can make an application. And so that's how I would understand it, is all of scripture is inspired, all of scripture is authoritative. I'm just no longer under the Sinai covenant as a law. Hmm. Yeah, that's helpful. Yeah. I also think a lot about you mentioned that is that that that the law reveals who God is and And we need to meditate upon the Lord in order to understand who God is Yeah, and I think all the other examples you made us very helpful to look at is like, which I think is that even some people within the Christian Church say we cannot read the law anymore. And I think that that doesn't make sense at all. So I'll give you a great example. And then at this site, then we may need to, this may have to be my last point, but I've heard people, Christians, well-meaning Christians, talk about all the holidays or the feasts, the festivals, the appointed times, and we're no longer under the law. We're no longer in the law. Okay, Sabbath, we're no longer under the law. But for them, that means, They've never meditated on the scriptures about these feasts, these appointed times. I agree we're no longer under the law as a covenantal law code. But if I'm not meditating on the Passover, how am going to appreciate and understand that the full, get a full appreciation of Jesus as the lamb? If I'm not meditating on the Sabbath, am I ever going to get true understanding of what it means that Jesus says, come to me and I will give you rest. And so I think that by virtue of the fact that the believers, they just say, okay, we're no longer under the law, which means I'm not going to read the scriptures. I'm not going to, you lose the depth and the perspective and the beauty of who Jesus is and what he's come to do, because you can only appreciate who he is within the context of, of of the scriptures. Yeah, that's helpful. And maybe as the final thing, we like to have an application here. Maybe, can you illustrate that, how that would like be beneficial for the viewers and listeners of this podcast? Yeah, well, I mean, I can only talk about, I don't know where your listeners are, the viewers are. I can say that for me, living in the land of Israel, Israel still uses the calendar of Leviticus 23. And as a Jewish follower of Jesus, of Yeshua, as these holidays have come around, and my kids don't have school and we're sitting around the table, these have become incredible ways for me to teach my children the meaning of what Jesus has come to do. And I'll never forget, it was the day of atonement here in Israel and we were all at home and we were reading the passage of the day of atonement together. And all of a sudden my youngest son looked and he said, So you mean that Jesus died for our sins? Like, are you saying that Jesus was like the scapegoat that took on himself all of our guilt? And I said, absolutely. And he'd never made that connection.

And so it seems to me that many times people don't, you the application is: 1:07:36

Do we really want to understand the depth of Jesus' sacrifice? What it meant? Why did he die? Why blood? What's the significance of the fact that, you know, he's made all of us clean when unclean was such a big deal in the ceremonial law and now that Jews and Gentiles can sit together and worship God together and even partake of a meal together? That would be impossible under the Sinai covenant. And here we are celebrating the Lord's Supper as one new man. How do we do this? It means that Jesus' sacrifice, what didn't just remove our sins, it removed our uncleanness. And so again, the application is, I really want to understand the gospel? Do I really want to understand who Jesus is, what he's done? The miracle of the church. I need to study the Torah. That's wonderful. I love that application. That's just wonderful. think that we all should go study the Torah more and study the Bible, generally speaking, as a fullness, more to understand what Jesus had done for us. Thank you for that application and thank you for joining me on the podcast, Seth. You're welcome. You're welcome tusind tak Ja, mange tak, tusind tak. bye bye God bless. But before you go, if you enjoyed this podcast and you want more people to see it, please subscribe and leave a like. It really helps us create more episodes like this one. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Have a great day and I'll see you in the next one.