Nathan Graham Author, Coach and a Father

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Oh, hi everyone. Welcome back to the Solo Parenting Podcast. I've got another amazing guest. His name is Nathan Graham. He's also an author of Why Won't He Just Log Off? He's a speaker, a coach, entrepreneur, and a father. Through his work with families, parents, and communities, he helps people better understand the growing challenge of video gaming, addiction, excessive screen time, and digital dependency in children and teens. Drawing from his personal experience and extensive research and years of coaching and leadership, Nathan provides practical real-world strategies that families can implement immediately. His mission is simple: help parents understand what is happening behind the screen so that they can create a healthy relationship, stronger families, and lasting change. Welcome, Nathan. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Fantastic, Jennifer. Thank you so much for having me. How are you today? I'm actually doing pretty well as well. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

So, um, how did you get to write the book?

SPEAKER_00 1:17

I'm curious about that. So I it actually really wasn't on the radar until about five, six years ago. Um I I've had a career for the last uh 16 years in real estate, and that's where I've done a lot of my coaching and and business entrepreneurship and all the rest.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Um, it's also where I learned I've also always had a passion for psychology. Now, who I was growing up to who I am now were two very different people, but I had this passion for psychology, for philosophy, and um and just understanding the way people tick. I don't know what it was like personality profiles, understanding the way people are.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Now, if I if I were to rewind back to my my young adult ages, I was very addicted to gaming. So when I write about this, I'm not I'm I'm coming from a position that that I was there, right? Okay, okay. Um, and and I was not on a growth trajectory. I was, I'm actually very surprised I'm at where I'm at in life. Many people are. Um, and and then now I had this growth trajectory. I got introduced to some amazing coaches and mentors in my life, and that put me on a self-accountability mindset, which just over the last I'd say 13, 14 years, uh, well, 15, 16 years have just kept growing and growing and growing.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

And and then within my church, actually, I started running into parents that were having this issue of their kids gaming. And in my mind, I'm like, well, it's not really the end of the world. Like I was that kid, but don't worry, I'm successful. Now they could be successful too. And these are some lessons I learned from it. But they were so what's the right word? So trapped in the the issue at hand that I started noticing they weren't seeing the real issue that was underlying and that there was this big disconnect. Um, and one thing I'm learning in life is people do not like to listen to advice, but they love to read about advice. So um I decided to put it in a book this way. I could put the thought out, and then people can decide for themselves after they hear the whole argument um whether it works or it doesn't. It's not gonna work for everybody, but I think it'll help a lot of people, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:13

So yeah, yeah, that's what led me to write it. So when you say gaming, would uh do you think maybe TV would be included in that as well? Like just kind of.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Um, so I think there's there's two different avenues of what we look at when it comes to a lot of screen time. When I look at TV, I think I think it can create this tendency. So um I'm gonna back up for a second. When I was because I think this is the best way to describe how TV can play a role. I just don't think TV has the same addicting impacts all around. So when I was growing up, um, I got picked on a lot in school. Like grade eight, grade nine, grade 10, grade 11, grade 12 was not good years, and it was very bad. So when I was in grade eight, I never had games at home. My parents didn't let us have Nintendos, we didn't have Game Boys or anything like that. Phones in the 90s didn't exist. Um, I I got I remember giving my first page year, I was so proud of myself. Um so awesome, anyways. Uh, so phones didn't exist, and and I got picked on a lot. So, what I did have though, instead of gaming was Legos and Star Wars. Um, I would rush home, lock myself in a room in grade eight, and I would play with my Legos, build these fantasy worlds, and then I would watch Star Wars. Oh, and I mean a lot. Like I just put the three movies on over and over and over and over again, right? Okay, okay, and and what was happening was is this was fulfilling needs within me that I wasn't getting at school, that I wasn't getting in my personal relationships. So um, the reason why I wanted to explain that story is can TV be a part of this? Yes, Star Wars was a part, it it gave me this avenue to fulfill needs through um imagination, through connecting with the hero and everything else like that. Yeah, the the difference though, when we get into gaming, is gaming does that intentionally and on steroids, right? Okay, so there's a lot of things that are built within video games where they now understand the psychology. I don't think George Lucas understood the psychology of what he was doing. I think he just wanted to create and tell an amazing story. Yeah, now they understand the psychology, they understand addictive nature, and so you see all these elements now within video gaming where it's beyond just playing a game for entertainment. You now have social communities, you now have senses of significance, you now have adventure. All these things the human being craves are all built within this game, and then they give you an ability to have mastery through it, right? Yeah, so it's a bit of a long answer. So I do incorporate a lot of screen times, screen time, but yet in this particular lens, I'm looking at it, is you see uh uh you see something that's just specifically designed to manipulate that aspect of humanity or the lack thereof fulfillment. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah, yeah, because I know I relate back to myself in the 90s. Um, like first of all, my dad didn't like the idea for us to be even watching TV at all and let alone have gaming. But I know with me and kind of I didn't really have much friends because I was too quiet and naive, I guess you could say it. And I was kind of always to myself, and TV was my only way out, so I can kind of fantasize of having this uh wonderful life as I grow up and then become famous or whatever, you know, like just watching those Disney movies kind of thing. So it was that was my kind of way of just kind of after school, instead of doing homework, just watch TV and get away into the fantasy world.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Well, it's actually interesting because I I feel like what you're describing right now is essentially Instagram before Instagram, yeah, right? Like so, and I absolutely tie Instagram into it. So, yeah, actually, I I haven't really put that connection together until now that you mention it, but yeah, no, I I would venture to say that that form of TV is definitely doing the same thing as social media or as as the gaming world, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Because we were very limited to what we could do in the 90s, right? So that's yeah, maybe so. How can parents tell the difference between a child who loves gaming and a child who may be developing an unhealthy dependence on it?

SPEAKER_00 7:23

So this is when I think we start to see addictive tendencies come into play, right? Um, actually, I'm gonna back up. If it's okay, I want to jump in. Um, because I keep talking about these needs and I'm going back to them. I'd love to explain the need portion, and then that way I can keep relating back to it. So every human being, everything that we do, like you and I, Jennifer, in this podcast, we're we're doing this. Every action we take is designed to fulfill four basic needs within human beings, right? So the first one is a sense of certainty, right? So I get a job so I can have a roof over my head, I have food on the table, I need to know that I have certainty in life. Yeah, I also need to know the rules of the game, right? So if I go into an environment and I do not know uh how people react or respond, the first thing I do is observe to create certainty. So I understand the rules of what goes on, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Um, the second thing that we do things for is a sense of adventure. The cause if we did the same thing every day in, day out, we would just get bored. So uh these are things like some people go crazy, skywal or uh skydiving. Um, I did this the edge walk in the CN Tower, and I'm terrified of heights, but my wife isn't. So we had to do the edge walk at the C and Tower. That was terrifying, but it was an adventure. Starting podcasts, starting businesses, these are all adventures that we take on. Yeah, and the other two are significant for the next one's significant. So this is the that need to feel important, that need to feel accomplishment, that need to feel recognized, that need to feel respected. And then the third one is love and connection. So we do things to build love and connection um with other people, with communities and things around us, right? Um, okay, so this is where we begin to see gaming come into play. When gaming is this fun sense of adventures, this sense of growth, um, it can be a very positive thing. I have like my I drive my my wife crazy because I have an obsessive nature when something happens. If a game comes out, I play it a lot for like one week and then it's done, right? Okay. Um and so that's one form of looking at it. And that's me using it for entertainment, that's me using it for fun escape and all the rest.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

But much like any other addiction, when it starts to interfere with things that would normally be happening over a long period of time. So, for example, when it starts to interfere with their homework, if they really love music and they stop playing music, if they love hanging out with their friends and they stop hanging out with their friends, if they used to engage with your family and they're no longer engaging with you, these are all signs that the game is beginning to fulfill those needs in a uh unhealthy way that is basically creating the addiction, right? They're getting the the way the game is designed, they're getting their sense of significance through the game, they're getting their sense of community through the game. Um, and and it's interesting, you have healthy and unhealthy ways. Like I love that story about the TV. That just sparked a lot of thoughts in my head because here I can now see this. Um I'll say this little Jennifer in front of the TV. And you you said that you were missing that love and connection in the world out there. And so where you found it was in the imaginary world of television, where I found significance and loving connection was in Star Wars and in Legos, right? That's why it was so difficult to pull me away from that, right? Yeah, um, yeah. So so that's where like to start to see that shift into an addiction. I would say it's like any other addiction or any other concern when you start to see a detach of detachment of reality or normal relationships. I don't know, I love the word normal, but we'll use it anyways, like normal relationships, like with their friends or their partners or their family and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Yeah, I know this this could be like maybe off topic, but I've just come to meet um this mind that when kids kind of go into TV or just to watch friends and detach from friends, it's because maybe they're being bullied at school, or they're just not being able to handle the studying or the school because they're too distracted or they've got learning disabilities happening. And so they need to kind of get their way out, and maybe gaming or watching TV is just finding them security for them.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

Absolutely, and it's like that was definitely my case was was bullying up because there's something interesting that I find happens. I've been thinking a lot about teenagers lately and just kind of playing through and trying to remember what it was like. Yeah, and in an aha moment I had a while ago when I was kind of analyzing the difference between children growing up and teenagers, like so like seven and eight versus ten, twelve. Yeah, is when you think of a two-year-old, a two-year-old is exploring this world, they have newfound feet. Um, they can now hold and grasp things, they're beginning to conceptualize. And then you see like two-year-olds bang things together, and you're like, Why are you just making noise? And they're not. What they're doing is they're like, they're trying to understand the rules of the world. If I take object A and B and bang it together, I can understand this world. Um, they're also like this sounds weird, but a very basic level, they're they're learning to spatially conceptualize the way things are on a table or the way a cup is round, right? And so they have this exploratory nature because to them it's new. To us, it's a cup. We've held thousands of them. To them, it's new. Well, when you have a teenager, and and I'm gonna back up actually, as a two-year-old and up until about 12-ish, give or take, depending on development. Yeah, you as a parent are their guiding source of what is truth in that, like you're the stability. It's like I'm looking to you, mom and dad, or to you, mom, to you, dad, about how does this operate? I want reassurances, right? We're fulfilling that need. But then they hit about 12 and and all of a sudden they start having complex emotions, and you start to see this shift in them that it's like sad is no longer just sad, like sad is now depression, right? Um, sad is now anxiety, right? Um, it's like it's a lot more complex. And as an adult, we hopefully, and I quotation that learn how to manage that. We felt happiness, we felt anger, we felt all these emotions, these complex emotions for a long time. But as a teenager, it's brand new. And they're now taking their first steps at 12 into an outside world where they don't understand the rules, they don't understand what's going on. So, just the same way those kids bang together things to understand the concept of the world, they're now entering this whole new world that they have to learn and understand for the first time. And it's like I have book knowledge, I know what anxiety is, but I don't have participatory knowledge, I haven't participated in anxiety yet. So I'm trying to figure out how do I manage that as a teenager.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

Yes, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Yes, and and then to your point, if we're not given real tools on how to manage that, or um yeah, whatever case may be, we'll we'll talk about that problem sure later. But if you're not given real tools on how to manage that, well, one way of managing it is TV, right? So one way of managing it is video games, one way of managing it is social media, right? And dreaming about what you can be. Um and let just for fun, let's go step farther. Like when you look at adults, one way of managing it's alcohol, one way of managing it is um partying, one way of managing it is gambling. Like, even as adults, we don't escape this. I focus this around gaming because that's an issue, but as adults, we're we're in the same boat a lot of time and mismanaging how these feelings operate, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Yeah, yeah. And a lot of the especially with uh a lot of the homeless, I guess it's like drugs. And so when you can't handle what society has thrown at you, you just kind of get it one and get away, and it's alcohol and drugs.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Well, and and it creates exactly what we're talking about. Like it it sounds weird to us because we don't use drugs in that manner, but especially homeless. Like, I just can't even imagine. We are so blessed to have certainty in our life, yeah, that we take it for granted. And when you're homeless, you don't even know where your next meal is, where your next roof is. Like, yeah, you everything you're doing, um like and this is a perception thing, like like and I'm just I'm I apologize, I'm just verbally vomiting with a thought that's coming to mind. So you can challenge me if you're on, but like um, like I I think of the way people react to when when a homeless person is asking for money, yeah, and the first reaction is they're just going to use it for drugs. Well, no, not they still have to eat because trust me, if they weren't eating and drinking water, they wouldn't be here begging for money and so um or asking for money. So maybe to come from a point of compassion and say, let's get them some food, like maybe that certainty is the first thing that we've taken for granted so much.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Yeah, totally. Because I was reading somewhere too, and a couple of times they've actually said that uh um instead of giving money to a homeless person, go buy them food and give it to them.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

And that way then you're guaranteed that they'll be eating and they're not wasting your money on drugs or whatever, right? So that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

I love I love the backpack programs. Uh, we have a few people in our area that'll just organize them where around uh the winter time they'll put backpacks together with blankets and things like this, yeah. Um, older clothes, and then you just go to a place where there's homeless. Like in where I live, in um I'm in Durham region in Ontario, and uh near a city called Oshawa, and there's actually a lot of homeless people in that area, but they hide them very well. The city hides like you don't see them going down the street, but they have these mass encampments, and um, a lot of people will go there, and and I think it's a great thing to do because you're giving them certainty, you're giving them blankets, you give them tents, you give them a roof over their head. Like it's not a great one, but it's it's something, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Yeah. Wow. So why do traditional approaches like punishment or screen time limits or taking uh devices away often fail?

SPEAKER_00 17:04

So going back to these core needs, I think there's this interesting, there's this that's a misalignment in how parents versus teens often frame it. So as a parent, we think it's a source of entertainment, right? Yeah, like it's kind of like uh do you remember the old school days with Mario? You can just shut it off and then you can start it again the next day. Yeah. Um that that's what we're we're assuming gaming still is. Or um, I hope my mom never listens to this because I'm about to throw her under the bus. She loves Candy Crush, right? Yeah, yeah. And Candy Crush doesn't really provide a lot other than just pure entertainment, right? So when they think of uh the average game, um, that's what they're thinking of. To your team, though, it is very different. So when you look at the way um, so I'll use this. I used to play a game, I still play a game called World of Warcraft, right? And this is a game that's it's an online game. You have a character, you're in a fantasy world, you level up and you get stronger, right? Yeah, and it has a lot of these dopamine hits and addictive tendencies where every time you level up, it's like ding, this big uh fireworks go off, and you feel a sense of accomplishment. You're you feel like your character got a little bit stronger. And so it's really building into the sense of confidence, the sense of significance, this sense of adventure for me. And then it also has this online component where a lot of things are done in teams and groups, right? And in that team and group, um, I might be with five other friends, and this is this in some cases, this is a kid's only social connection at a higher level um in life, and and they're trying to accomplish a goal together. Well, since there's this misalignment, a parent thinks I don't understand it, I can just unplug it, they can go back to playing it later. But from the from the teen's perspective, it's I just failed something I was working hard towards, which never feels good for anybody. And then on top of that, I just let five of my other friends down. We were in the middle of something, and because you unplugged it on me, it didn't just destroy my experience, it destroyed their experience too. And now I have to go back to my social group and basically be like, I'm the one who failed you guys, I'm sorry. And then that social group's gonna decide do we still want to have Nathan with us because he's unreliable in these things, right? And and in this, this this disconnect that ends up happening is where is where that conflict usually lies. Um we we're pulling the the teen out of something that's far greater than just an entertainment source. Um, and I'm not saying don't have boundaries, so I'm sure we'll get into that, but you're pulling them out of this source by just unplugging it, and they're not letting them for it to come to its conclusion of whatever it is ending to fulfill that need of significance or fulfill that need of connection.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Okay. Wow. And then how can parents connect with the reconnect with a child who seems to be more interested in gaming than family or school or friends?

SPEAKER_00 19:53

So I think it kind of goes back to this sort of connection basis, right? And yeah, and this is where I I want to make sure I'm not sounding very one-sided with with parents, um saying that they're the problem because they're not. Um like we're parents, um, it it's it's hard, right? So so one thing I really want to say about this reconnection is we we live in a world that is designed to go against us. Yeah, if I'm correct, your podcast is more around single parents, right? Yeah, I can't even imagine. Man, my my wife and I have talked about this. That like we already have to work in a dual income family. We're we're already doing our best to attend. And man, kudos like to those mothers and fathers that take on the responsibility of fulfilling these needs of certainty and everything else while still participating in their kids' lives. Like, my my heart goes out to you. And first of all, congratulations to that, right? Thank you, thank you. That's that's amazing. The the reconnection will come from this, though. It's if if they're not experiencing certain connections, so my my my parents were a dual-income family, and and I remember coming home from school four days. My dad, my dad was a retired minister now, my mother was a nurse, and they both worked evening. So I would literally come home from school in grade six or seven and not see my parents until eight, nine o'clock at night, right? Yeah, yeah, that was just the nature of it. Um, so when it came to love and connection as a as a child, this is what I really wanted. We can reconnect. Like, I think one thing I like to tell parents it's quality over quantity. Yeah. Um, number one the the time that you are spending with them means more when you're spending focused time with them and less than spending unfocused time but a lot, right? Yeah. Um, the second thing is come from curiosity, not from judgment. Okay, it's so easy to look at what the kid is doing as just get your act together. Yeah. And it's much harder to look at it as they're fulfilling needs, they're struggling with anxiety, they're struggling with rejection, they're struggling with all this. Like I was in a men's podcast the other day where it was like we we often get told, just rub some dirt. It and walk it off. Yeah, it's so easy to give that advice when it's much deeper than that. So if you come from curiosity, that is something that that opens up the world to figure out um what needs are being met. So if you want to have some fun, I can show you a cool way of doing this. Do you want to role play with me for a minute? Sure, sure. Yeah. All right. I love it. Okay. So I call this the the three deep questions, right? Now, this is what's going to happen. I'm going to tell you what's going to happen, and it's going to happen anyways, even if you make a plan for it not to happen, it's going to happen anyways. This is what I love about the questions because it's not done consciously.

unknown 22:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

So I'm going to ask you a question, and the first answer you're going to give me is the answer you think is true. Okay. And then the second answer you're going to give me is when I re-ask the question or I go deeper into it. You're going to give me the answer you think I want to hear.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Okay. Then the third answer you give me is actually going to be the truth behind this.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

So I told you this, you know this, but we're going to have some fun anyway. So uh let's start it off this way. Jennifer, um, why do you do this podcast?

SPEAKER_01 23:01

It's to help out the uh solo mums that are kind of just overwhelmed right now.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

Awesome. So there's in in your life, you've seen a lot of solo mums that are overwhelmed, and it gives you the opportunity to help them and hopefully build them up a little bit. Would that be correct? That's correct, because I'm actually a solo mom as well. Awesome. All right. Well, when you do that for other solo moms, and kudos to being a solo mom, by the way. When you do that for other solo moms and you get this um this feedback about how it has helped them, what does that do for you in your day-to-day life? How does that affect you?

SPEAKER_01 23:38

It actually boosts my um motivation that I'm actually out there helping someone um get better at just being a single mom and that they can handle it.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Awesome. So you feel like you're it boosts your motivation to keep contributing back to society. Would that be a good way to say it? Yes, that's correct. Yeah, awesome. Okay. So as you're giving back to society and as you're doing this, how does this positively affect your relationships around you?

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Uh being a single mom, they don't understand anything. Nobody like um doesn't understand like how do you do this or how how do you manage this? You know, they're always like, oh, go get go get somebody to do this for you, or go get it's not as easy as it looks.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

So here we went from, and by the way, thank you for sharing that. Um, and I love that that last little bit because I that that's the I think you actually just boil down to the key of of how these questions work. We went from just saying people need help, I want to help them. And and that honestly, I that that we can create a lot of good stories. I could take a nice way of understanding that. I could be like, well, maybe Jennifer thinks she's a know-it-all, and that's why she wants to help. Now I know that's not true, but I could create all these stories in my head, right? About, but by going deeper, not only do I see your compassion for this line of helping moms and giving back and contributing back to society, yeah. I also see this underlying frustration that you see in the world that people are not seeing eye to eye, that people are not relating. Um, and as I said, like one of the things I'll be very cautious on is I am not a single mom. So I have no right to give anybody advice on this sort of thing. So I don't what remember we talked about participatory knowledge? I do not have participatory knowledge in what you're going through. Yeah, but you do. And and uh by the way, I love your heart, your compassionate heart to help other moms through this and encourage them through it. I think it's much more needed. Had I not gone through deep though, that's something I wouldn't have known about you.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Yeah, and the same thing's happening with your sons and your daughters there, whether they're looking at social media, whether they're looking at playing video games, whether they're out partying too much, whether they're hanging out with the wrong crowd. Like my I used to hang out with the wrong friends, it's the same thing. Yeah, you are experiencing a disconnect of love and connection and of understanding and significance. And this is what this podcast is building for you in a healthy, positive way through contribution. Yeah, and the question is with young people today what is the game building in them that they're not receiving in a healthy way from the outside world? Yes, okay, yeah, and when we begin to understand, and I talk about coming from curiosity, that's the curiosity I'm encouraging. You still have boundaries. Remember, one of our key things is still to have certainty. We still need boundaries, we still need rules. Your sons and your daughters still need to know the rules of the game in the household. So boundaries are still so important, it's a key thing for life of how we operate, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Um, but come from compassion with it, right? And come from curiosity.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Okay, okay. So, how has modern technology changed childhood parenting and family relationships over the past decade?

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Um, I love it when people ask this question because I think, first of all, it's very important to understand that it hasn't created these needs, these needs have always existed. When I I grew up in a small town in Alberta before I moved to Vancouver area, um, I grew up in a small town in Alberta that was called Grand Cash. It was 2,200 people, literally in the middle of nowhere. It was an hour and a half in the mountains away from any other major city or town, surrounded by trees and forests, right? We, as kids, and I mean way too young, I mean like eight years old, if you could imagine, used to go out into the wilderness on our bikes where grizzlies and other coyotes and wolves would live, and we would have built forts and play games and everything else, right? Yeah. Um, those needs were being fulfilled and connected in me. Before I had video games, I shared it already when I was getting bullied in school. Uh, Legos and Star Wars fulfilled those needs. My dad came up to me one day and said, Son, you're getting a sport. I don't care which one, but you're playing one, right? I was about 14 at the time. And so I chose football, and football started fulfilling those needs in me, right? So these needs are not anything new.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

The difference is the way of fulfilling those needs has now just in an unhealthy way been amplified to the nth degree. Now, all of a sudden, before I used to have to go play football, or before I used to have to go out into nature or connect with friends, now all I have to do is turn on a console. Now all I have to do is start playing a game. And what this does is just quickly like on a science portion of it, because we're talking a lot a lot of psychology, but on a science portion, yeah, um, there's a lot of dopamine hits that get taken. And that's something that your brain craves is this dopamine. So you have all these rewards which feeds you through fake dopamine essentially all the time. Yeah, it creates this mastery. We have what's called the flow state where um I shoot a lot of pool. Uh I love shooting pool. And every once in a while, when I when I'm practicing and I'm in the zone, it is like there's this blanket of energy over the pool table. It's like I can feel where every ball is. I'm in this heightened state of mastery where I don't miss, and it's great. I love it. Games automatically create that now. Like this is what I talk about when they're engineered to be addicting, they're engineered for the dopamine hit, they're engineered for the mastery, but it's it's in a way that you don't need effort to earn it. There's no effort that goes behind earning these hits. And this is how technology has massively changed it. We've basically taken something that used to take effort, work, and fulfillment to earn and are now handing it for free out, right? And again, this goes farther than that. It goes into social media, goes into gaming, goes into um, I I I dare not touch on it too deeply, um, but it goes into pornography, it goes into AI chat companions. Like these are just free dopamine hits without a human being having to earn it, and this is what has changed the landscape for it.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Oh wow, right? Interesting, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

So, like, why go make friends? Like, why go make the effort of making friends when I can get exactly online?

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Yeah, it's because I guess uh a lot of people when you try to make friends, you don't know, first of all, because you're too shy and you don't know how to say to something, and then on top of that, they could be mean to you as well, like they just start all of a sudden bullying you, and you're just like scared and you don't know what to do. And because you can't hold your parents' hands for the rest of your life and you know, like help me walk.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

But and think about it in a gaming world, they start bullying you. You can just change to a different server, you could just start a different character. Um, I almost relate it, like actually, a thought that's coming to mind. I don't know why this is coming to mind, but almost like relate it with the dating world. You know, the the best partners aren't necessarily found on on dating sites. That's that's a a free quick. I'm not saying don't use dating sites. There's a lot of people who've met their partners there, but it's a cautionary tale because it's a free, quick way to meet a mass amount of people to hopefully find the right person. Where through friends, through um organizations, what a much more fulfilling way through dating. Like dating seems to be a lost art these days. I'm so thankful I don't have to date. Dating seems like a lost art these days of actually just going out and talking and meeting people.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Imagine that concept, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Well, yeah, and then on top of that, like it's people are not trustworthy the way they used to be. It's just like you don't know what kind of personality somebody's got or what kind of person they are until like it's like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

And it's hard too. Like, uh, I will venture into these uh waters very cautiously and carefully. Yeah, but especially because we're talking to a lot of single moms out there, like one place where my heart goes out to them, it's kind of like saying, To build a right relationship, you need to trust, but everybody we're gonna put in front of you you can't trust. Like, what the heck do you do with that, especially in an online dating world? It's much different if Jennifer introduced me to one of her friends. Well, I know Jennifer and I trust Jennifer, and so her friends are probably like her, and that that will build some trust, right? Yeah, um, but it's just so much it that's such so much harder to do. That's the way we earn it versus the way it's just given to us to go online. And so it's my my heart breaks for people who are dating today because man, just I agree with you. Like it's and don't trust the random people. I I know a lot of scumbag guys out there, yeah. Um, they're not in it for the right reason.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

So yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much. That was awesome. So if somebody wanted to buy your book uh or connect with you, where could they do that?

SPEAKER_00 32:32

Awesome. So my book is available on Amazon. Okay. Um, so just uh find why won't he just log off. Yeah, I do want to say I do uh because I'm a guy, I write it from a male perspective, and because uh I was a young man growing up, I rate it from as if I had a son. I do not have a son, by the way. I have a daughter, which is a very cool experience. Okay. Um, having said that though, the the principles are all the same, and the principles work on both sides. Maybe it's not a game, maybe it's social media, maybe it's not your kid, maybe it's your partner, and maybe it's gambling, maybe it's drinking. Um, I I have no problem saying this. I'm a recovering uh, I've been sober for now for like four years. Um, so I understand that that form of addiction as well. Um, so so the it'll hopefully relate. So check it out on Amazon. Okay. Um, and then you can find me on social media if you uh right now, um, because the book is still new, you still have to Google Nathan Graham Realtor from Ontario, and then you'll find all my social media. Um, but if you go to synthetic.echo.hub on Instagram, that's where I am, or syntheticko.ca is my website. Um, you'll see the book and more about me and everything else on there.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Oh wow, that would be awesome! Yeah, yeah. I would love to have you back, and then we could uh continue our conversation about social media and then just like gaming as well, like the addictions.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Absolutely. I uh definitely we we could definitely do this again. And if if the audience finds it helpful, we can we can dive deeper into a lot of the topic and subject.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

So yeah, that would be awesome, especially like with being um and having an addiction. I think that would really help as well, because especially with solo parents, maybe they have had a spouse that was going through this and doesn't really understand why they did that. Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

So if maybe if you want to talk with your personal experience, like yeah, so I'm actually in the process of of writing another book because I I found that this one was very specialized to just kids and and teenagers. But I'm taking a lot of these concepts and just specializing it over life because you know, here's here's like another crazy. I know we're trying to wrap up here, so I promise not to go too long. No, no, that's fine, that's fine. Like, here's another crazy concept I find is you talk about your right. Some people had a spouse that had a game, like a gaming addiction among men and spouses is insane. Yeah, um, but I think the part of the problem is, and maybe I'm wrong on this, I don't think I am, but women feel like it's somehow their fault in the relationship. Yeah, and and men, and I did this, I did this in my relationship. I will share this. I did this in my relationship where I tried to make my wife the responsibility of my life. It was her responsibility that I was happy, it was her responsibility I was complete. And this was so unhealthy and so unfair to her. Like, I have an amazing wife, and it was so unfair. Yeah, so it's it's we don't look to our partners to fulfill all these needs. They're they're they're a partner, not a parent, right? Yeah, yeah. So um yeah, definitely I would be more than happy to discuss that aspect of it.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Okay, sure. That would be awesome. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I think I guess we will have it another time that we can discuss.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

Awesome. I love it. I really look forward to it. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

You're welcome. All right, so everyone, that was my guest, and I definitely will have him back on again, and we can discuss some other topics regarding either gaming for adults, or maybe if your spouse is with substance abuse, or maybe alcoholic. But anyway, um, thank you for joining my podcast and listening. I definitely have um a link down at the show notes that you can get a free newsletter every month, and there'll be a surprise as well for you there. Um, so please keep liking and continue listening. And I will see you on my next podcast. Thank you.