The Right Questions with James Victore
The Right Questions is designed to help you get paid to do what you love and stay sane in the process.
The Right Questions with James Victore
Episode 58: Drawing Joy: Pablo Delcan On Play
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What if the fastest way to honest work is to chase the wrongest idea first?
That’s the creative compass Pablo Delcan uses to cut through noise, meet brutal deadlines, and still make images that feel unmistakably human. We talk about growing up in a house where clay, paint, and metal were always within reach; about turning shyness into a superpower for connection; and about the editorial bootcamp that taught him to reduce complex stories into one clear picture without losing soul.
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I've got something really hot for you today. You the canned music. Today's episode is one of my favorite interviews, a delightful interview with my friend and contemporary, the artist and designer Pablo Delcon. You may not know Pablo yet, but I've followed him for years until I was brave enough to approach him. I think his work is so simple and so inspiring and so joyful that I had to talk to him. You can find Pablo's Instagram handle at Pablo Delcon. That's at P-A-B-L-O-D-E-L-C-A-N. Follow him. It's a real treat. Pablo teaches at the School of Visual Arts. He's designed books and posters and done done all the all the wonderful things that we're supposed to be doing. And he has a new book out. It's called Promp Brush 1.0. He calls it the first non-AI generative art model. And it was made in response to all the AI-generated crap out there. And he takes a human-centered approach in this illustrated collection of humorous, touching, and poignant ideas based on prompts given to him from the public. I hope you love this interview as much as I. It was just a wonderful conversation between me and another uh designer artist who really gives a shit. Okay, here we go. Pablo Delcon, welcome. It's great to see you.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks, James. Yeah, it's thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be in the in your podcast.
SPEAKER_01:As you know, um as we, as you and I both know, the the the audience doesn't know, um, we recorded this already. We had. It went so wrong that you had me back. We talked a week ago, and now we're just calling it our rehearsal. So what I want to do now is just like I want to go through the same questions and do them like as dull and bored as I can. Yeah, yeah. You have to bring the excitement. I'll be like, okay, and what about your new book? Tell me.
SPEAKER_00:There's like, you know, when when you get the questions to an exam, and then you know, you just know all the answers when you already go into it. Um, so maybe it may I'll surprise you with new answers for some of them.
SPEAKER_01:We'll we'll see. Good, good. You were doing your homework, and um, and I've done my homework, and also like just as if you've gotten answers to a to a quiz, um, you know, we will take an hour and a half, an hour, an hour long, hour and a half long um uh podcast and turn it into 10 minutes.
SPEAKER_00:Nice. Let's do it. Let's do it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um Pablo, um I have so much love and respect for you, and um, I'm sure that will come out in so many ways during this thing. So I'm sorry for the what do they call it, fanboying, and um also for the um the similarities I see in your career and and and and mine. So it's very cool. There's so many, there are so many groovy things that um that um excite me about seeing me and you. No, I've been you know, as you know, I've been a fan of your of your stuff for forever. So let's just get into this thing. Um uh Pablo, what made you weird as a kid?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so you know, I was thinking about this uh as as interview 2.0 as we're calling it. Um you know, as a kid, I changed schools a lot, and I was by nature quite an introverted and shy kid, which like when you're introverted and shy, being the new kid is not the best situation because there's like this default attention that happens. Um so I I and also like when you're when you're introverted and shy, it's not like there's a lack of wanting to connect with other people. You just like um you're just not able to do it in the way that you would ideally want to in your head. Um, so I I feel like what made me weird as a kid was maybe that, like being the new kid and being uh this this shy person with this great want to connect with other kids and other people. And um, and I think the ways that I found to do that was to um was to use art and drawing and and um creative practices to connect with those people and to like bring people together to like um I don't know, I I feel like when I was 14, I started a rock band, and that was like a great excuse to connect with other people and get in the same room and hang out. And um, I feel like that taught me a lot on you know how to use this this uh what I perceive to be like this handicap of just like not being able to connect in the way that I wanted to and find these new tools to do so.
SPEAKER_01:Um, yeah, I think um I talk about that in uh in my new book, Hey Weirdo. Um I talk about this idea of like, you know, we perceive our weirdness as a as a as a flaw or as you know um something wrong with us when when in fact it is pointing us to our tools, you know, using using your using your creativity, um, you know, it was the that was the tool for you to make connection. Um I had similar ideas when I was a kid because I was I was told I was shy from my father, so I ergo became shy. You know, authority tells you something and you believe it. Um, but yeah, uh using humor and using drawing as a kid um was a great tool for connecting. It was also a great tool for getting me in trouble.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, don't tell me about that. How'd you get in trouble as a kid?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, you know, I just I I drew on everything, including, you know, my clothes, including my my hands and my body, and um including my school books. But in when I wrote in my school books, they were mnemonic devices so I could remember the text. It wasn't like I was daydreaming and just drawing army men. I was I was I was illuminating the text literally so I could remember things, but you know, school doesn't like that shit.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, yeah. No, it's yeah, I I have similar memories of being in in an exam and remembering, oh, like that the answer to this is next to that drawing I did in the classroom at that time and place, and it just like kind of grounds you in an interesting way.
SPEAKER_01:Correct. Yeah, this is these mnemonic devices, you know, as as as uh Gertrude Stein says, um, when this you see, remember me, right? Yeah. Um, I want to talk about a little bit about go, I want to go back. I want to go back into the background. Um you grew up immersed in in in art, oddly enough. Your your grandmother ran a ceramic ceramic studio, your mom was an artist, your dad was an animator and filmmaker. How did those environments and being around that um shape you?
SPEAKER_00:Um, well, it it it made the act of making things seem completely normal and almost boring as a kid. It was just the thing that we all did. We went to the studio and we made art, we made ceramics, we painted, we drew, and it there was um, I feel like for some kids, maybe the act of making art becomes kind of like this special thing. Like we're we're gonna do arts and crafts now, and we're gonna get the kitchen table dirty, and then we'll clean it all up and pretend like it's not really part of our life. Yeah. And for for us, it was like all the tools were always out, everything was always everywhere. There was always paper, there was always clay, there was always uh a mess somewhere, and um, and I think it just it just became quite normal, you know. And and um, and I we're talking about this last time too. And I I think um in a way I always felt like that's what my life was going to be. Like I there was no moments in like high school or school where I was like, oh, I wonder what I will grow up to be. It was like, oh, I'm just gonna continue making things, and that will somehow lead to like my future and whatever form that takes. Um but yeah, it was, I mean, it was wonderful. Like, like, you know, getting back from school, and my grandmother would have ceramic classes uh in the in the studio next door to my house, and my mom would be making these like huge like oil paintings and sculptures, and um even the the garden was filled with these like uh scraps of metal and big metallic sculptures that she was building too, and it it all just seemed normal. And now looking back, I was like, Well, that was that was exceptional. That was like a really special childhood to have.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. So um I often say that I was born to do this job. Um, I was completely born to do this job when I when I look back, but at the time, going through like grade school and high school, um, um, and then after right after or immediately after high school, um, you know, I wasn't around anybody who did this. I was, you know, I was reared on a military base, first of all, and then some small upstate New York town where there were no, I mean, there were there were there were little ladies who did watercolors, but there were no you know artists or stand-up comedians or um um so it was never presented to me as something that was doable. So it was for me just this kind of like I don't know, it's not it wasn't a heavy burden, but it was like this kind of useless thing. Um which is a shame, which is you know, which is really a shame. So you know, you that you you know, I'm sure your your gift of having it around with you came with its with its own um weight and and questions. Um but you know, so you do you feel that you were born to be born to do what you're doing?
SPEAKER_00:Um yeah, that's a good question. I I it's I I feel like there's um when when that question of like where was I born to do what I'm doing is is interesting to me because I I feel like I haven't really arrived exactly to the place where I know what what I'm doing. Like I feel like I'm in constant search for like what that thing is, um, and it takes on like different mediums and um different forms. And um yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I if I'm there yet, maybe like there's like a future career that I haven't discovered yet that that is the right thing for me.
SPEAKER_01:You know what I mean? Like it's yeah, no, I I totally do, I totally do. Uh, you know, I mean, fuck, I totally do because you know, you know, I'm I am always 17, you know. I am I'm I always see myself as the kid in the room, I always see myself as as kind of that playful child. Um, and yes, I would love to know what I'm gonna be when I grow up and what work is gonna come, you know. Yeah, so I can completely say, you know, I I knew you when.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, it's like before he was doing that. Being surprised by you know, looking back, I'm I'm like, I I want to look 10 years into the future and not know what I'll be at that point. And that that I'm comfortable with. That that is something that I that I like. Um yeah, there's something like uncomfortable about knowing, okay, I'll be sitting in the same chair in 10 years doing the exact same thing. I'm not sure that's me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, even creatively, I know I've got a uh a dear pal of mine, um Joel, in in in um in Brooklyn, he was a knife maker. And um he started making knives because he, like me, he'd failed out of a lot of stuff. The reason I became creative was because I failed out of you know university, right? Um, but he was trying to be a writer and didn't didn't just didn't have it. And he started making knives. And all of a sudden his knives became very famous and very popular with chefs, and he was making, you know, beautiful, expensive tools. And I'm lucky to, you know, to to have one of his one of his gifts. Um, but then we spoke a couple years later, and he's like, James, I know what knife I'm making two years from now. He says, that sucks. So there's this thing about, you know, yes, suffer, you know, suffering from success, right? And knowing, knowing where, you know, what what's what you're going to be doing. It could be as bad as just like being in an office job and going, okay, my next step is I'm gonna be in that office over there and have her chair.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think it's like when you it's becoming really good at something, that's kind of the trap sometimes, is that then success follows you and then it doesn't become a new thing anymore. Then it becomes a job. And I don't know how sustainable that is in the long in the long run. Uh for one's own creative kind of flow, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I have illustrator friends who sell their own their own prints and their own t-shirts and their own stuff, and they are trapped. Their audience doesn't want, like, if they do, there's this wonderful Spanish lady I know who does this beautiful floral stuff, but on the side, she draws, you know, skulls and dead birds. And I'm like, oh my god, those are so great. Why aren't you using those? She's like, James, my audience is Paul Coelho's audience, they're not interested. And I'm like, oh dang. Looks like you need a nom de guerre, another studio, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, hey, uh, Pablo, best advice you've received from your parents.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think I don't know if it was like straight-on advice that they gave me, but it's definitely something that I've that I've soaked in uh through time and through conversations with them. Um I think from from my mom, it's been uh this um this real appreciation for for freedom, uh like personal freedom, and not in the in the sense of like uh political freedom, which is that's like a different conversation, but more so in like owning your um owning your time, owning what occupies your mind, um and and um just not not sacrificing that for uh for money or for um even like for success, like just being very clear about what are the things that you want um to spend your time uh doing. And for my dad, I one thing that I that that just like rubs off from my dad all the time is this like uh insatiable curiosity. Like he's someone that's always exploring, always learning new things to this day. He's like constantly like emailing me and calling me and telling me about this like cool new thing that he discovered. And um, I feel like that's that's something that has taught me a lot from like a kid until these days. It's like someone that's like constantly just just teaching me new and interesting and exciting things.
SPEAKER_01:Cool, cool, that's awesome. Um a few moments later. Oh, okay. Yeah, I was I was thinking about something, but um we will probably make a note to edit this long pause out.
SPEAKER_00:Um yeah, or we can just like everyone can take a deep breath during that pause.
SPEAKER_01:Everybody can come from with us doing a little bit. Um I know for a fact, because I hear from my audience often, I'm often in conversation with them uh because of the role that I've taken or or assumed or found myself in creatively as this teacher and mentor and guide. Um and I know for a fact that not all of us have as supportive families and and parents. Um and I hear from people often about how they went to art school and how that just shut them the fuck down, you know, to the opposite effect, right? Um has anyone shut you down along your path?
SPEAKER_00:Uh no, I I don't think so. Not that I can remember at all. I think also um I think because I come from such a family of artists and creative people that have been artists as uh you know to for a living, basically, I feel like I didn't really have anything to prove to anyone other than myself. And I think that was like helpful to me uh in in kind of like um and that was not always clear to be truthful. Like I I think at the beginning, maybe like some of the instructors that I had over time was like, oh, I really want to impress this person. And but clearly eventually I realized how uh impressing other people just didn't really help me all that much or the work. Um so I I feel like ultimately like being sh being I mean, I've heard plenty of um unfortunate comments about my work on social media and things like that that I would not even kind of care to remember. But um ultimately I feel like I'm just constantly like trying to impress myself and trying to grow by doing so. Um so no, I wouldn't say like anyone's shut me down uh successfully that I can think of.
SPEAKER_01:Successfully. Um how do you deal with the critics? How do you deal with those those those you know, those voices?
SPEAKER_00:Um well, you know, I do a lot of like work that could be considered political work because working with newspapers and magazines that deal with political subjects, and a lot of the stuff I get from from people has to do more so with that, you know, or like affiliating myself with like certain newspapers um and the ethical kind of nature of that, or um illustrating like specific articles for some people that maybe they don't agree with, and then I kind of get the the fallback uh of those comments. And um yeah, I don't I don't know, it doesn't really affect me that much. I feel like if if anything, if they're paying attention, that's that's as much as I want from anyone, really. If if they're paying attention, that's that's good enough.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Um you uh I had read in an interview that you mentioned you were um at early on you were good at summarizing complex stories in a in a few words, and it often was not a I mean, obviously it's what you and I have in common right now, it's a strength, but um uh it was somehow a disadvantage at school. Is there something there? Is there a story there?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I have just very bad kind of like uh memory or like inability to like memorize long, complex ideas. Uh, but I'm quite good at reading something and summarize it in a very succinct way. So I when I was in school, like in high school, I remember like my philosophy exams, and like I kept getting horrible grades because every time there was like a question, like, you know, explain, you know, um Plato's blah blah blah blah, and I would just answer with one kind of short sentence. And they wanted like, you know, they wanted me to like take the hour-long exam seriously and spend a lot of time kind of writing these questions or and answers out. And I I would just be, I don't know, just my mind just didn't function in that way. Like I'm more of like, okay, the this is the question, this is the perfect answer to that question, and it's simple and it's straightforward, and uh, you know, yeah, I I just didn't understand the the need for complexity when sometimes like something simple is is better.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, I uh so I I mentioned getting kicked out of university. I was also kicked out of the school of visual arts. Um, and when I left the school of visual arts, I realized that um I didn't know Jack's shit, and I had to go get an education, right? So I started reading. Um, and a lot of what I read was um what started me on my love of philosophy and and and um uh various readings about religion. But um in the Tao, the book of the Tao, there's this wonderful line that I I hold dear to my heart, and the Tao is full of contradictions, but um in it, um uh Lao Tzu wrote writes that um in simplicity we must have complexity. And in complexity, there must be simplicity. Which if you can kind of understand that, you can it it can help you tremendously as a you know as a as a creative that you know that that complexity for complexity's sake can be can be fine. Um, but if you want real meaning, you know, try to follow that that philosophy. Um yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_00:I hadn't heard that before. And I I think, you know, as as they say too, like there's it's something there's something really hard about doing something simple really well. And um, and also complexity can very easily become noise too. Yeah. Um, so I yeah, I think, and sometimes noise can be beautiful as well. So I don't know, it's it's it's interesting depending on the on the context.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, when I'm working with when I'm working with um either coaching clients and who are concerned with the the visual craft, it's really difficult to teach simplicity. You know, it's really hard to figure out what you know uh to be a really good whittler, you know, and just whittle away what what you don't need, make it sharp. Um, hey, in in in line with that, I want to talk a little bit about um a similar background uh of ours, the New York Times op-ed page. Um I was lucky enough to um be an illustrator for that page um for a long time and then um uh find myself as the um the creative director for the page, the art director for the page. Um, and then I was the guy doling out the jobs to to various you know artists and illustrators. And I know how hard it is to to boil an idea down to some level of simplicity. And with the op-ed page, you know, we get the story and we know it's coming out tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, and you've got to find someone who can who can handle that kind of deadline. Um, tell me your your experience with uh working with the Times.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I feel like the Times has been almost like my education in a way after being at the School of Visual Arts. Um like when I started doing op-ed illustrations, it was when Matt Dorfman was the art director there, and he was uh kind enough to to offer me to create an illustration for the op-ed without me having much of an illustrator portfolio. Like I had my SVA portfolio, which was like mainly like book cover designs and not very illustration heavy. Um, but I really wanted to do some of that op-ed work because I I loved the people that were doing it. I thought it was like a really exciting challenge. And um and I feel like through working with all these like incredible art directors that they have at the op-ed page and at the New York Times magazine, I feel like I've I've learned to do that kind of work. And it's it's become kind of a muscle that's that's grown over time. Like at the beginning, I feel like it was really hard for me to come up with three ideas for a piece. And now I feel like when I read something, I just like I'm overflowing with all these exciting ideas to to put forward. Um, it's it's a really interesting and fun challenge, also because of the the time constraints for these things. Like you you you you're kind of working on the edge of your seat, just like you know that the deadline is coming every minute that goes past. And um and the concept is incredibly important. Um, and once you get that concept approved, it's like, okay, now what's the what best way, most interesting way of um making this? Like, is it a photograph? Is it a drawing? Is it some sort of like typographic treatment? Um, I feel like it's just like a really exciting kind of uh design problem.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um when I was when I was working there, it was the old building. So it was the old one, the one that was off of Times Square. Um and I remember there were there was one artist in particular, one it was actually a designer. Again, I'd like to, you know, you want to work with a designer who hasn't done it before, right? Because there's there's gonna be definitely gonna be novelty brought to it, right? You bring a book jacket designer in. And I remember where there was one, one, one um actually Michael Beirut, who um he literally said, Um, uh if he doesn't if he had doesn't have an idea on the phone, then he doesn't do it. It has to be that immediate, it has to be that clear because he knows that he's going to have to devote that much time to this thing. And there were other artists that I would call and they'd say, Okay, I'll be right over. And what they would do is they'd come over to the building with paper and with a little toolbox, and they would sit in the lunchroom with inks and and draw and make something. Yeah. And they go, How about this? How about this?
SPEAKER_00:How about this? Oh, that's that's that's pretty cool. I love that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, just you know, you know, it's it is it I think it was when, you know, even before faxing came in. So it was just like, you know, people just like said, I don't know, how about this? How about this? Let's let's draw something else. Fix it. Okay, here white out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I feel like it's it's changed a lot. Um, I feel like my my process now is um just referencing that idea of having an idea right away. Um I feel like for me, I I like having as many ideas as possible. And I I like that kind of initial moment of like reading the article and trying to find the idea that's first going to make me laugh. Like what's the most what's the the the wrongest thing to do for this article? Like, what is something that is completely ridiculous that that first will make me laugh, maybe will make other people laugh. Um sometimes that idea gets chosen, uh, rarely it does, depending on the on the tone of the article. But I that's kind of where my mind starts. And then it's like, okay, now let's go back to the text, let's circle some interesting kind of visuals that are already here and find fun, kind of playful ways of of um of addressing this. I yeah, I don't know. It's uh it's it's a great, it's a great kind of way also to learn and push yourself. Like I, as I was saying before, like I feel like I've like the New York Times has become kind of like a a school for me to learn how to be an illustrator. Um and I and I still wouldn't be able to like tell you exactly what is the style that I have in my illustrations. Like it is very much like the text is dictating what and how I I illustrate something, um, which makes it so that I'm constantly kind of reinventing the way that I'm that I'm trying to do this.
SPEAKER_01:Um you had said something earlier, and I want to go back to it because I think it's extremely important for people to hear or for or for people to try to understand. And I it could have been just me saying this, um, literally. I tell people what I do for a living is I sit at a very big table with pens and paper, and I try to make myself laugh. And I try to go to the wrongest idea, you know, because somehow, somehow through the wrongest idea, there's there's there's truth, right? Um, yes, there are clues in the paper, you know, there are clues in the story, there are clues in the in the content, but many designers get tripped up by those or or they let the words push them around, right? Um, instead of allowing yourself that level of play, the wrongest idea. That's a that's a wonderful expression. Um, can you can you can you talk can you talk about that idea of like what I call it when I write, it's called uh making yourself happy first.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I think uh for me it's almost like forgetting that you're trying to pursue something, like you're trying to finish the piece. You're trying, you're not trying to finish anything, you're just like this is the time that you're devoting to spend with this piece of text, and you're going to draw a bunch of things. You're gonna make a bunch of um silly concepts come to life in different forms. Um, and it's it's not about fulfilling a brief, it's just about being in the moment with what you're doing and truly being playful. Uh and for me, that that's why I love to do what what we do. It's because of that time that I get to spend with myself, um, trying to make myself laugh, trying to make uh myself grow or or or create some sort of like new um curiosity that maybe will lead me to like learn how to use a new tool. Um and think, yeah, I I feel like I I've learned how to use so many different tools because of these projects, like sitting at the table with either my computer or with like a camera or a scanner, uh cutting up some typography and gluing it. And I I I just like put a lot of um care into that time, and and I feel like as soon as I and I and I have those moments too where I'm like, okay, this is in a day where I'm completely filled with work, I start rushing things and I start kind of like neglecting what I think is like really important, and I have to kind of sit back and take a deep breath and be like, no, this is not the way that I like to do things. Let's uh make sure that we we uh add this important time to the process. Um, because I'm not I'm not as interested in the finished piece as I am in in that time. Um yeah, I think that's that's how I would put it. It's it's kind of forgetting that you are trying to finish something and kind of focus on the making.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And you know, uh, and and beautifully, it goes back to the advice that you got from the you know, either direct or uh assumed advice from your mom. I mean, the way you work with that, you're giving yourself that freedom, and that takes the pressure off. Right now, you're thinking, oh man, I wish James Victory could be my mentor, my guru. Hell, I wish he was my coach. Well, you can make that happen. Go to your workisagift.com. There's a questionnaire that will probably help you out, but it'll also give you access to a free call. So let's talk. Let's free you from overwhelm and creative frustration. Let's build your business and help you get paid to do what you love. Again, go to your workoft.com. Let's talk. We can't work with pressure. We can't work with our with our our nervous system all jacked up and going like, oh fuck, I gotta I I gotta get I'm gonna get paid for this, and it's gotta be on time. And you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's also like the the work, there's like if you're having fun, the work will feel like you've had fun making it. Like that's something that I that I I don't know, there's like some of my favorite designers, um their work just breathes that process into it. Like you can see that there was someone behind that work really kind of like present with it. And it was not something that they were phoning in. There's like no fear that's being shown in the work, it's like pure joy and this unique kind of uh um, I think we our our first conversation, I think we were calling it the the spirit of the work. Yes. Um, and I think that's something that that I aspire my work to have every time that I'm sitting down to make it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, I I often say as I as I as I wander through the the visual marketplace that you know the designers create, I am I am appalled at the boredom that I see or the the work that I see. I don't see anybody playing, I don't see anybody enjoying their job, I don't see anybody infusing any spirit or life in this. I mean, and with my work, like I said, I sit at a big table and I try to like, you know, make myself laugh. And I want to make my work pregnant with that so it goes out and has a life of its own, you know, and and and I have been blessed with so many pieces that you know that you know could be 15 to 30 years old and are still, you know, people are still talking about them. So that's cool.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, hey, I'm so glad we rehearsed because you know, shit, you know, it's coming out a lot better. It's great. Yeah. Just stick to the script, buddy. I got you. Um I unfortunately want to talk about AI. Let's do it. I'm right. Let me pull up my notes. What did I say last time? So you've you've embraced um mid-journey and you know, chat and um, and I'm assuming Photoshop's own aspect of that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm using all of it, as as much of it as is out there that I can access. I'm I'm using I'm using it.
SPEAKER_01:So you're responsible for those big fields that they're carving out of and putting these massive service and um uh oh yeah, yeah, that's that's all me. Um I apologize. Um so how do you strike a balance between all that shitness and um um expressing uh human spirit and human creativity?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think um it was funny. I I was just in in Spain and I was like pulling up my my Instagram feed while I was there, and I started seeing like all these these like sponsored content that is obviously like different because of the location where you're at, and so many of the commercials, like actual produced like commercials for big brands, all of them were fully generated with artificial intelligence, like with fake people doing fake things, and it was just really strange. Um I I think still like there's something that's going to happen, and I think it's already coming, where the value of human work is going to have a a renaissance of sorts where like we're all gonna just not trust what we're seeing anymore. Like there's there's gonna be less value in um talent and more value in taste and and this idea of of the human spirit being infused in the work. Um I think AI is an incredible tool. Um, I have brought it into my process to help me do things faster that sometimes would take a lot like a longer time. Um I I still don't think it's a tool that I would want to use for finished work that I'm producing. Like I don't think it's gonna replace the things that I actually like doing. Um but it is something that I'm incredibly curious about and something that I think it's just an incredibly powerful tool for image makers. Um, it's also it can be very easily make us incredibly uh lazy as well. So it's kind of like hard to strike that balance. And um I think I've been using it a lot for like coding. Like I coded my own drawing application instead of using Photoshop to draw or anything. Like I just made my own kind of uh software and I created my own brushes that kind of have the like I can kind of I don't know, it's like a new way of stretching my arm to like a realm that I had no access to before. Um, I used it to like create like fun little video games with my kids. Um like the other day, like Rio, uh my my son, like just drew a little sketch of a video game that was like a balloon, and like birds came in and popped the balloons, but there was like PNT balloons that were you were not supposed to pop because if you pop those, then all the other balloons would explode and then your points would become negative. So it was like the this crazy kind of like idea for for a video game, and then we put it into Chat GPT and spent some time just making it, and it was cool because then we like by the end of the day we were playing it together, and again, it was something that we I couldn't have done without these like new tools that that exist and are very available to everyone. Um I think it's a trap at the same time for our business and for especially like young creatives. I think it's just a very easy way to get lazy with your work, to get like enamored by something looking very pristine right away. Um and you forget that you know it's the the process can't become that, also either. You know, you you kind of have to be able to get dirty with the work as well. Um, so so yeah, it's it's an interesting time that we're living through with these new tools that keep improving like at exponential rates that are insane to watch. Um at the same time, I feel like we we should all be curious about it and uh be willing to fight against it at the same time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um one of the I love to go, one of the reasons why I love museums is to see, you know, the the I literally go to see the hand of the artist. I want to get close to the sculptures and see, you know, like in in Rodin's work, I want to see the fingerprints in the bronze. I want to see the, you know, the paint marks or the chalk marks of Lautrec or, you know, the Van Gogh or um, you know, because there's this wonderful thing of that I um um that I see for my kids all the time that's kind of like I did that thing. And I've I I do that too. Like there was, you know, I had a guest in the house um yesterday and they walked in the door and they're like, an artist lives here. And I'm like, well, three artists, actually. And they looked at one of this, this, this pop-up poster that I had done uh a couple of years ago, and it's and it looks like I drew with a mop because it's it's a massive poster. I'm like, well, actually, it's just fingerprints. I did, you know, I just like I just did it with my finger and blew it up. Um, you know, there's this ID, I did that that I really love. And now that with it with AI, it's like it feels like people are like, oh look, I didn't have to do that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, and that's that's the thing too. It's like who who owns this work? You know, like you you prompt this thing, and do you did you make it? Do you own what you've made? Well, I decided. Right, right. So it's um it's a strange moment because I feel like at the same time, there's this like democratization of like the work, like anyone can be making like these like incredibly realistic photographs that before you needed a photo studio to create. Um at the same time, like and that's kind of what I'm curious about too, is like three years from now, when we've been like over kind of just hit over the head with with just waves and waves of this kind of work, it's just not gonna feel the same. We're not gonna want this in our lives anymore. Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna want the real thing. And um, and I still feel like the real thing comes through. Like the real thing with the real you know, fingerprints in it still comes through.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, I you know, I am admittedly a Luddite from from way back. Um, but I think there's I think there's I think there's place for for Luddites. Um, I think there's place for that that kind of uh criticism, um, you know, as long as it's not you know, as long as it's informed. Yeah. Um I want to talk about this incredibly sexy book, Prompt Brush 1.0. This is your this is your this is your new book, the first non-AI generative art model. Um, you you had mentioned this had begun with as like a play project with your with your boy Rio. So um tell me about um um 1.0.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so so the idea for this was I think that the style of the drawings definitely was heavily influenced by watching my my son Rio uh drawing. But um, but the the initial idea for the project came from I I got this like commission from the the um what was it, the Washington Post, like in the end of 2023, and I had done like a series of illustrations, and they had they had it was like trying to like reflect back on the year 2023, and they wanted it to be like AI heavy. So they asked if I could make my illustrations look more like they had been made with AI, even though I had been making them uh without AI. It was like conceptually, it made sense, but also how do you make something look more like AI when um so I had so I had this moment of like and I and I that probably kind of came and went. And a few weeks after I was I had this moment on like, okay, if if this is like what I did to make my work look more like AI, like what would be the opposite of this? Like, how can I make my work more human than I've ever had to make it before? And um so I came up with this idea of like just putting it out there, like I'm taking in prompts. I just created this like new AA, like non-AI generative art model where people can send in prompts and I will just draw them as fast as possible uh as a as a human. Um and it's it kind of was like a quick idea that started as a as a joke or like something funny that I wanted to like put out there. And then uh I started like just having a lot of fun doing this. And a lot of people kept sending in prompts, like friends from my childhood that I hadn't spoken to for years were sending in like prompts that related to you know inside jokes that we had, and friends that I went to school with were sending in prompts about you know things that they were up to now, and it kind of became like a great way of connecting with people through just like simple, quick, you know, 30-second-long drawings. And um, I just I thought, you know, I'm just gonna keep doing this for as long as I can uh do it. And you know, now it's like 1800 drawings later, and um there's this book that's that's coming out uh uh September 9th. Um but yeah, it the product it was almost like an idea that came to me out of nowhere, and um and I just like made sure to stick with it because I feel like there's a lot of times when you have an idea for a project and it kind of comes and goes. Uh this time I kind of wanted it to stick. I wanted to like so I kept telling everyone about it. I was like, I'm gonna if I tell everyone about this idea and how I'm gonna like be drawing non-stop for a full year, then I'm stuck with it and I'm gonna kind of hold myself to it. Yeah, and uh, and so I did.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and you know what, what what comes to me is the idea of non-stop for a whole year. Like, how do you not let that style evolve? How do you not not get not bored of it, but not start adding you like, oh fuck, I want color in this, or I want a thinner line, or I want, you know what I mean? How do you stick with with quite frankly one one brush?
SPEAKER_00:And I love the photo of the one brush in the book, so yeah, you know, it's funny you say that because uh I feel like the style changed because I never washed the brush, so it started as like a very thin brush and ended up as like this like monstrous, kind of like ink-heavy tip of a brush that I had to like um repair several times throughout the year. Um but yeah, I think ultimately I did try a few times. I was like, what if I add color? What if I do this? What if I do that? And I think what I liked ultimately about the and it's yeah, I don't know if I would it's definitely become a style of the drawings, but it was it was just meant to be like me drawing very fast. Like that was the that was the the style. It was like how can I draw as fast as possible, not concerned about like anatomy or things kind of like being in the right place or like perspective, or just and I I kind of loved the rawness of that, and and that's kind of what I was trying to like when I was watching my kids draw, I was like, Oh, I'm jealous. I I want to draw like that, I want to draw without worrying it, worrying about what other people might think. I don't want to clean up the drawings, you know. We were talking about this last week too. Like it, I would literally just like snapshot the drawing with my iPhone and email it to whoever sent the prompt, and that was that was it. There was no photoshopping, there was no, you know, variations for the drawings. It was just first idea, first drawing, you know, churning them out like yeah, like churros.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, uh two, two, two things you made me think of. One is um um I've had the opportunity to meet and spend time with most of my um, if not all of my mentors. Um, and um one was this uh character, Henrik Tomashevsky, he was born in 1914. He's kind of the father of the modern poster. Uh and I I got to I got to know him fairly well um at the end of his life and and be in his studio. And in his studio, you know, he had you know brushes laid out on the table, and they all were like, they all had arthritis. They were all like, you know, just stuck together, gnarled, and and there's something that there's a there's a quality that that adds to, you know, that adds to the work.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um well I had this moment where like I I lost my brush for maybe like two days, and uh I picked up another brush, and all of a sudden I couldn't draw the same way. Like it was I don't know if it was mental or if it was just the brush itself, just like it was my lucky brush I couldn't, yeah, I couldn't do it without it. So so I found it.
SPEAKER_01:It was it was you um you talked about you know looking at your kids and how they make work. I do that constantly. Uh Nova is a prolific genius. Um Wyatt is more of a tinkerer. Um, but Nova when she's drawing, and and you know, even even the kiddo too, there's no going back, there's no erasing, there's no sketches, there's no like let me refig. There's no fucking, they just fucking go and they're done. And I aspire to that. And it's really that level of you know, feck perfection is is is difficult to achieve. So, you know, what the question that comes from that is, you know, um um were you ever stumped? Did you ever like hate a drawing and accept it anyway?
SPEAKER_00:Um, yeah, I think there's a lot of drawings that I did throughout the project that I was like, I don't it's too cute, it's too like obvious. Um but but yeah, but I didn't let that kind of like stop me too much. Like I just that wasn't the point of the project. Like I it was almost like I wasn't thinking of myself as an illustrator when I was making these drawings, it was more like this like performance piece, like I was just making drawings, some of them were good, some of them were bad, and I was accepting that. Um, true to form, um, AI doesn't care either. So why should you? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. How many fingers does a hand does a hand need to have, really?
SPEAKER_01:Um, were there any prompts that stumped you?
SPEAKER_00:Um there was like I think the the the ones that kind of made me um have to think really hard were the ones that I like the best. And there's one that I always think about, which was the the pro like someone sent a prompt that was just forgive forgiveness was the prompt. And um I just was looking at this blank piece of paper and holding my brush, and I was, you know, how do I how do you draw forgiveness? And um, I just closed my eyes for like a minute and then just waited. Um and then this like memory of me accidentally stepping on my daughter's foot kept to mind, and I was like, oh, that's that's it, that's the drawing. And I just like did it. Um and it's that's probably like one of my favorite moments of the project. And there's like a few of those where it's like um things that are just like more open to interpretation or or or vague that I feel like, oh, now I have to connect with myself and my own story and my life to to kind of uh uh draw this thing. And um, those were my my yeah, my favorite moments.
SPEAKER_01:Um I could go I could go on and on about my favorite pieces in the book. I could, you know, literally list them. There's some that are just laugh out loud, funny, and some that are fucking intellectual. And um the one that I the one that I that I think of often is um is coping. And and it takes a second, which is beautiful. It's like uh like uh uh Cassangre said about a beautiful poster. He said, A good a good poster enters through the eye and explodes in the brain.
SPEAKER_00:Beautiful.
SPEAKER_01:You take this in, and all of a sudden, oh you get the aha. And coping is the drawing of a nose with arrows going in and a drawing of a mouth with arrows going out, which was just beautiful.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's my life. That's uh, you know, whenever I have like intense anxiety, like that's what I that's where my mind goes. Just breathe, breathe it in and out.
SPEAKER_01:Breathe, baby, breathe. So many good lessons in this. I'm I'm glad we st we're sticking to the script, dude. It's great. Um, um, we talked about this a little bit a little bit earlier, but you know, what what do you think? What do you think since we're talking about the book and we're talking about you know AI or um what do humans bring to the table that AI can't? What's a what's our saving grace?
SPEAKER_00:I think our saving grace is or at least for me, and I'll talk for myself, I think for me it's that I want to be the one connecting with other people. I don't want to um kind of export that need of mine to a computer or to like an algorithm. Um and I think I also have a need to connect with other people through their through the the work that they've created. Like I want I I don't want the artificial version of James Victory, I want the real one. Um and I and I hope that I will be able to like continue to do that with my work too, is like this is the authentic, unbarnished version of my work. Um, and I think it it my hope is that AI will will make what we were talking about before of this idea of like revising and making things more clean and making things more pristine. I think that will become the thing of AI, and humans will be left with the more human-looking work, hopefully. The one that that has kind of an imprint of individuality to it. And um yeah, that's kind of my my hope for the future and for my own work too, is like how maybe AI will make it so that there'll be there'll be a more value to be making this kind of work.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, I've always believed that, you know, I mean I as a as a graphic designer and illustrator, um, which is my which is my first love and my first craft is in graphic design. Um, you know, I often I often have to talk in art terms and um, you know, and an art, an artist, a good one, and a good designer too. Um, you know, if their work doesn't divulge something about themselves, then it isn't, it isn't really worth worth it. Um, and you know, AI does not divulge anything about itself. There's nothing there. But the AI that I see that scares me um the most right now is like the stuff that's on Spotify where they just create a band and it's got their own, they've got a photos of them, chirpy, good-looking guys, you know, um, um, and they've got, you know, they're just pooping out albums. Yeah. You know, I mean, like what, you know, uh discerning the truth there. It is, is there, you know, is there, yeah, are their stories gonna make us cry the way, you know, Bonnie Raits did or or Gaga, or you know, that that that's an interesting question.
SPEAKER_00:That's a really good question. And I'm not I'm not sure the answer to that might be. I think I I'm more like concerned with what that does to people who want to be making that work, people who want to be making that kind of art, or like even thinking about music itself. Like, if if um and I was thinking about this too, because I as a as a teenager, I spent a lot of time in recording studios. Um, and I remember like going in there and the guitarist having to do like so many takes to get the perfect one, the one that sounded the most machine-like possible. And I'm like, is that gonna change now? Is that are we now gonna go with the one take that just you can hear the pick hitting the strings and you can hear the the the breathing in the room, you know? Like, is that gonna be the take that feels oh, there was actually like a recording studio with real people uh kind of sharing a moment there? Um I I'm hoping that that will be the case. Like it's just gonna change the way that we listen to things and the way that we we take in things. But um, but at the same time, I feel like it also becomes a little bit like uh unmotivating um when like it's almost like uh AI has made it so that there's like an infinite amount of things that are that are already made because it's all it's it's already in the algorithm, right? Like it can make all the infinite songs about love, you know, if you just like prompt it to do so.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So now what's the what's the point of getting together with your your four friends in a garage and and writing your own songs, you know? Um I I I really hope that people still um see the value in that and and that that ends up coming through in the in the art.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, I mean, a lot of it, a lot of that has to be taught, like, you know, you you with Rio and my me with with with my two. Like I I intentionally keep them away from pads and um and AI and stuff here, you know, like Nova's drawing and creating with clay and tape. And I mean, she just makes, I mean, she's like, Can I use this box? I'm like, you bet, baby, just go, go for it. And Wyatt's making, he's into you know, gluing together rev revell models now, which is kind of cool. Um, um, but I'm afraid for their future where you know, where that is, you know, the the the the going mode is you know computerized. So yeah, um, but all I can do is prepare the kids for the road, not the road for the kids, right? Yeah, that's beautiful. Um, big question. Do you consider yourself an artist?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, so I think that the short answer is yes. Um, I remember in in college, I had this instructor, um, Karen Goldberg, who was a mentor to me.
SPEAKER_01:Um amazing woman.
SPEAKER_00:Amazing, amazing woman, amazing designer. And I remember like she um for a lot of the projects that we would do in her class, um she kept telling us to think of ourselves as artists first, designer second. Uh, and I feel like that's something that uh really resonated with me. And that's it's it's like something that I I have brought into my my process and my existence as as a as a designer. I feel like it's like I think of myself as an artist who designs. Um and I try to bring that kind of mindset into the the problem solving aspect of design, right? Like it's I I'm not a designer when I'm trying to problem solve. Like, what's the most artful way of doing this? What's the most like what what can I as an artist, an individual, bring to this uh work?
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cool. Um, I want to I want to talk about uh your workspace. Um again, there's something very simpatico here. Um I I worked very hard in New York for a long time and you know, in the city, and I um was able to buy a um um uh one of the little artist lofts in Soho and get the AIR so I could, you know, so I could officially be there. Um but then got quickly bored, got it, had a baby and got quickly bored of New York, and it was just too freaking hard to have you know to be in New York. Um, moved to Beacon, New York, and bought a three-story Victorian, and it had a heritage house that I converted into my studio and had some graffiti pals paint the side of the building. Um, and you are in um a barn in the cat skills, and you've got typography outside of your building. Tell me about this story.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, it was funny how I ended up up here. It was during the pandemic. Um we were at the time living in Brooklyn, and uh my my girlfriend's uh mom has a house upstate. So as you know, as soon as we could get out, get in the car, drive upstate, we would do so. And we realized just how much happier and easier our life was up in in uh Up here um in nature. Um, so we and just by chance, we just went for a walk one day and found these like three new houses that were had just been built, just you know, five minutes away from from um her mom's house. And it was funny enough, like the only thing we had ever seen that we could even afford to buy. It was a very small, tiny house. Um, and we put an offer in um with the idea that it wasn't set in stone. So we we like I think it was like a month later, we're like, actually, we're gonna not buy the house anymore. Uh, we're not so, and we had already put a deposit for it, and they told us that we, if we didn't buy the house, they would keep the deposit. So we were like, I guess we'll just buy the house. Um, so we we bought the house thinking that maybe it would be like a weekend thing would uh come up here every now and then, and then just again, just like realized how much happier we were all uh up here. Uh so we we ended up putting my studio and our apartment in the city in in a big truck and and driving it up. And um and as soon as we moved up here full time, the first thing I did was uh called up a company that did uh sheds and asked them to bit build a really big barn for me to to um call my studio. And um and yeah, it was like like four months later they were they had like built this thing, and um I at the beginning I had no electricity in here, so I just like ran uh uh a cord from from the house of the studio, and I was just uh I got a uh ceramic kiln in here, and I just had so much space. I set up my my drums there, my drum set upstairs. Um, and it's just been kind of like the the the dream studio that I had as a as a 15-year-old was like now finally a reality.
SPEAKER_01:Excellent. And then and then and then there's some typography that has been kind of dear to you for it's it's followed you from studio to studio now.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I had I have this uh when I was in the city, I had a a small kind of like hallway uh studio that I rented in the lower east side, and I had this um enamel panel typography made um that said this place on it. And um it was for an exhibition that Debbie Millman was doing a while back, and uh I had made two pieces, one that said this place, and another one that said that place. And the idea was that they the two kind of pieces were always connected because they were referenced each other. Um and uh yeah, at some moment I was like, okay, it's it's I conceptually I I I don't know how to explain it very well right now, but um the one that's at this place was always hanging in the studio, and it became kind of this this mindset of like just when when I'm here, when I'm sitting in my space, um, this is time that is uh spent focused on being here almost like in a meditational form. Like it's it's it's a time not to be um thinking about what I have to do tomorrow, but more so on like this is the moment to be doing all the things that I want to be doing. Um so it's become a little bit of uh of uh a mantra for me to have when I when I walk in here. Like this is this is the place where where I I like to do these things.
SPEAKER_01:I'll have to send you that prompt, this place.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Nobody has sent that one. Yeah, that's have you have you draw that?
SPEAKER_01:Um if you hadn't become a designer um or illustrator, what would you can you imagine yourself doing?
SPEAKER_00:Um I think for a for a while.
SPEAKER_01:Let's say it that way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I thought for a while I would be like a musician. I I considered like going to uh to Berkeley to study music at one point, like briefly. But um But I I don't know, it just didn't it it it was different. I think it was um for somehow and we're talking about this before with with your friend who made knives, there was something like making music. If that had become my profession, I don't know if I would have enjoyed it the same way. I feel like with with design, um, I'm able to like reinvent myself very easily. Um and there's less of a need for like other people to be involved in my practice uh with music, especially as a as a drummer that uh which was my my instrument of that I that I um practiced a lot. Um I feel like I was always like a need to like collaborate with other people in order to like do the thing that I love to do. With design, I could just like sit in a room alone and do it, which was which was great. Um, but yeah, maybe I would have been a musician in a in a different life.
SPEAKER_01:Excellent. Yeah, I uh I would be very happy to be um to give this all up and uh be locked in a um a woodworking studio. That would make me happy. Yeah, yeah, that sounds great.
SPEAKER_00:It seems like you have the studio built already.
SPEAKER_01:The I just can't get in there as much.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and then people say, What do you what project are you working on? I'm like, in my head, I'm working on this. Um what you you have been um you said you you haven't been on many podcasts. Is that what you said before?
SPEAKER_00:This is the first. Well, this is the second podcast after the first one that we did last week.
SPEAKER_01:This is the second one, but the but the first one released. Yeah, yeah. But you've been uh you've maybe been interviewed a lot and you've been asked a lot of questions. Um what question would would uh has not been asked that you would really like to share?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think last time we talked about this, I didn't have a good answer for this question. And maybe today I I might not even have a good answer either. We'll see. Um what's a good question? Give here, give me a second. Um take your time.
SPEAKER_01:I had that big old long pause earlier that I'm gonna keep in.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, we can keep this one in too as like you know, people can reflect on what what they would ask. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um yeah, I don't I don't know. I I uh I feel like a lot of questions that you've asked have answered a lot of things that I would have liked to answer, but um But I think yeah, I think one question that I keep asking myself is like what do I do next for this prompt brush project? Right? Like I and I think the the when we met the first time, I was talking to you about this too, and you were like that question is like coming out of a place of fear, you know. Um, and I'm still figuring out like is the project over now? Like have I done it enough that I'm gotten to a place where I'm bored of these drawings.
SPEAKER_01:Uh well you kind of screwed yourself because it's prompt brush 1.0, so it's like it's like it's like calling it first edition. So you kind of have to follow through with it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. So I'm I'm questioning like, what is the 2.0? Like what it can't be the same thing again, right? And what that 2.0 might be is, you know, I was like, oh, the easy way is like I'm just gonna add some color to it, or I'm going to uh at some point I was like, oh, 2.0 is just gonna be a new brush that I'm gonna, you know, name brush 2.0 or something. But um, but yeah, I it's a it's a question that I haven't been asked and also a question that I don't have a good answer for.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh the yeah, I can see, you know, as a as a as a longtime art director, I can see a number of ways to kind of play that out, um, either with with you know mid-journey and the the the AI tools or without. So um yeah, but you know, it is a um a gem of a book. And it's it's you know, it it I've I I've said this before, it rivals my own uh Victoria or who died and made you boss as a as a as a beautiful object to behold.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. I I appreciate that. I I love that book, by the way. I I have it over here too. I see some copy behind you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Uh uh Pablo, what what's next? What's a beautiful future for you?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think uh I don't know. I I'm I'm gonna give you the same answer as last week, which I think still stands, which is I feel like I've worked really hard to get to this place where I'm at right now. And um and I want to just spend some time savoring it and enjoying it and um not being complacent about it, but but really kind of focusing on the work that I can be creating right now because of this this kind of like situation that I've been able to put myself in. Um so if my future for the next years kind of looks and feel uh maybe maybe just like it feels similar to the way that feels right now, I I think I I'll be very, very happy.
SPEAKER_01:Cool. Well, I can tell you as the um ghost of Christmas future, um it gets better and better.
SPEAKER_00:That's great. I I I love that. I love that for my for myself and for you.
SPEAKER_01:It gets better and better. Um, yeah, I've um I'm I'm looking down that road too, and it looks groovy. Um uh Pablo Delcon, you are uh a a gem, and your work is just freaking fabulous, and I'm so happy to to to try to share it with as many people as possible. Um and I love having you on the show again.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thank thanks so much. And yeah, tell your audience to send some prompts and I'll I'll send over some drawings back.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Um, hey, thank you so much. I appreciate it. And you know, and uh, and uh and um yes, this is I knew that it's like we we mentioned earlier. When you when you work on a prompt and you you knew that was a difficult one, you knew that it was gonna be good because it was difficult. And I have to tell I have to teach people that all the time. Like I in my work, when I'm stumped and stumped, and I'm like, oh no, that's not it, that's not it, that's not it. I know that it's gonna be great because I have to go through that process. Yeah, gotta go deeper.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And and uh and this talk ended up being like that. So thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thank you.