The Right Questions with James Victore
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The Right Questions with James Victore
Episode 74: Oliver Jeffers
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Curiosity can feel like a compass and a dare, and Oliver Jeffers follows both.
We sit down with the artist and author behind Here We Are, Lost and Found, and a body of fine art that blends warmth, wit, and precise simplicity. From a childhood in Belfast during the Troubles to late nights in Brooklyn studios, Oliver shares how pictures became a second language, a shield, and a bridge—often all at once.
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Meeting Oliver Jeffers
SPEAKER_03There are people in this world, creators who make me curious. I see the bright arc of their career, and I say, Oh my gosh, how do they do that? And the reason I talk to folks here, the reason I have these interviews, is because I'm curious. I want to learn because I do not have all the answers. So today I have a treat for you today. I have a conversation with one of those creators, Mr. Oliver Jeffers. Oliver is an artist, illustrator, and author, best known for his imaginative and deeply humane picture books, including How to Catch a Star, Lost and Found, and Here We Are Notes for Living on Planet Earth. I do not know Oliver well. I've met him a few times. When I first met Oliver, we were both living in Brooklyn. And now he's currently living in Ireland. Oliver's work blends curiosity, humor, and a great deal of emotional depth in stories that resonate with both children and adults. Jeffers' storytelling is often described as warm, whimsical, emotionally rich, and deceptively simple. I love that term. His books have sold millions of copies worldwide, been translated into dozens of languages, and has even been adapted into film and animation. In addition to his literary work, Oliver's fine art has been exhibited in major museums and galleries around the world. And in 2022, he was appointed a member of the Order of the British Empire for service to the arts. I am honored to host Oliver here for The Right Questions. And today I'm not interviewing him, I'm meeting him. Let's do this. Yeah. Hey, um, I was out on my run this morning and I was thinking about thinking about talking to you, and I was thinking about you, and this imagery came up in my head, and I thought it was so perfect. For some reason, the image of you as the BFG. Roll dolls BFG. You are to me, you are this kind, gentle fucking monster.
SPEAKER_00I'm not that big. It's all my list of things to do is to get the six foot, but I'm 48 and I don't think it's happening.
SPEAKER_03But the analogy, the analogy was there, and I was like, Oh well, that's that is very generous.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Um Oliver, uh, first question is the first question I ask everybody. Um, what made you weird as a kid?
Growing Up In Belfast’s Troubles
SPEAKER_00Oh you know, I've heard you talk about this before, and I'm not entirely sure. My set of circumstances growing up was uh kind of unique. Uh and what made me weird was maybe not being weird in a world of weirdness. Um but also I think uh I think I learned to not not put too much stock in what other people think early on. Um uh I my I grew up in Belfast in the 1970s and 80s, which was a violent place. Yeah, you had to sort of learn to navigate your way around that. Um but I then went to a school where it was uh it was the first, it was I think yes, it was the first integrated school in Northern Ireland, so it was Catholics and Protestants getting educated together, which is you know the fact that that was new for its time is is quite telling. Uh and the not a lot of parents put stock in this method of education, so there wasn't a lot of students there, and to qualify for basic funding, they had to take in the the kids who were sort of expelled from all the other schools. So there was a it was a pretty it was a pretty rough school, and I think the fact that I was interested in anything at all was strange that I cared about my education. Uh and I figured out pretty quickly that there was power in the leverage of art that I could use art as a way to to both make myself disappear, but also make myself indispensable. Uh, and and I I clung on to that pretty quickly back then. Like I could uh use it as a way to ingratiate myself to some of the tougher kids who would then protect me, but also as a way to uh I think get the teachers to be on my side too. So I was encouraged to be an artist just because I shouldn't be interested in anything, really.
SPEAKER_03Excellent. Excellent. So you learned early on that it could be useful as a tool.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, I did. Um I I realized that it was like, oh, uh other people can't do this. They they can't make marks and make them look away that that either communicates or like looks good to other people. Um and there's value in that, but there's also value in the sense of being able to communicate because what not necessarily in words, but but but sort of uh undercutting words. Like I do think that we learn to read images before we learn to read words, and there's something uh there's something more powerful about when a poem or or a play or a uh a visual piece of art because there's that you're a participant in that in a way that it's a it's a more secular experience than reading a novel, which is a lot more linear. There's a lot more room for this collaboration with a viewer. Uh, and so I've I figured that out, I think. I don't know if I actually figured it out. I I intruded in it and it's only looking backwards year years later. It was like, oh yeah, I think I figured that out. I just didn't necessarily know how to articulate it.
SPEAKER_02Um hey, uh Richard researchers told me that uh were you born in Belfast?
SPEAKER_00I was not born in Belfast. Uh I I was born in Australia when my parents gave a quick attempt to get out of this place in the mid-70s. Uh they there was a program where uh I think you know what's I'm looking back, there's a documentary called Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland. And my older brother and I watched that. I'm like, oh, I bet you that's why our parents moved to Australia. And there was, it was called uh Bloody Friday, and there's like 17 bombs went off on the same day in Belfast. And and that, you know, like if you follow how long it takes to get a visa from after that point, that's pretty much when they moved. Uh so my older brother was born there, I was born there, and then six months after I was born there, my mom started showing the first symptoms of MS. And so we moved back to Northern Ireland to be closer to family. So I have I have no memory of Australia. I was six months old when we moved back here. Um, but I uh yeah, it has come in handy, and then I do have an Australian passport. But all I know growing up is Belfast.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um, my mom is from Castleblaney. So, like what, an hour away?
SPEAKER_00Uh I'd have to look that up.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's okay.
SPEAKER_00It's okay. Castleblaney, let's say actually, I'm gonna look it up because that's I oh it's in Monaghan, yeah. So it is about an hour. But it's technically in the technically just south of the border. So it's in ancientville.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I remember as a kid, I remember as a kid asking my mom, um, what's the difference between Protestant and Catholic? And she basically said, We're right. I was like, Wow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, my uh my grandmother was a chemist on the Falls Road, and there's a movie called The Name of the Father, uh, which is Daniel B. Lewis was in that and about somebody. So he he uh Daniel uh the the guy he that he was playing, Jerry Conlan, who was uh sort of rumpling in prison for an IRA bomb. Um he worked for my grandmother as a delivery boy back in the day. And uh so but all that's like she lived in she she worked as a chemist in this very um sort of flashpoint area. Uh and she remembers this, she tells this story and she swears this really happened in her chemo shop where somebody came into the chemo shop once and two of the local fellas followed him in and they said, Wait, you're not from around here. Are you a Catholic or are you a Protestant? And he said, Oh, I'm just visiting, I'm Jewish. And I confused them for a second, and then they said, Well, you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew? So that just goes to show.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, the 70s and 80s, they they they call that the the the troubles, no?
SPEAKER_00They did, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So what how how did that affect you? And and how does it still affect you growing up being?
Art As Leverage And Language
SPEAKER_00Well, it affected me in the sense that I I suppose I I used to joke that I was bilingual. I could understand uh some Protestantisms as I was raised Catholic, uh but as uh as well as knowing what to say whenever you were in a particular neighborhood, like you know, how you pronounce a prayer or whatever it might be. Um but it in a in a way I think visually it's it started this dual this this, I suppose, this understanding of duality in my work, where uh even if you look at the murals, uh the political murals uh in Belfast from back then, there was a sort of a poetic whimsy to the Catholic murals, the nationalist murals that depicted these old folklores and and folk stories. And then there was a sort of a graphic militantism and the design aspect uh to the loyalist murals that were a lot a lot more direct. And I think there's actually looking back, there's there's elements of both of those in my work, um, but also this ability to be able to sort of say one thing on two different levels at the same time.
SPEAKER_03Understood. Um uh about your parents, were there um do you remember lessons or advice that they gave you? Either, you know, oh my god.
SPEAKER_00I could I could write a book. Yeah, I could write a book on things that uh I mean, my mom died 25 years ago, so she encouraged me to leave Northern Ireland. Uh is like she says, you don't really know where you're from until you can see it from far away. And I didn't realize how effective that would be as the way that would come to my work later on, like particularly with the overview effect and explaining Northern Irish politics to well-educated people in America, and then realizing that when you you know how little they knew or cared ultimately, and comparing that to the way that astronauts spoke about looking at planet Earth from the distance of the moon. So that you know, early on, that came from my mom in so many ways. Like you don't know where you're from until you can see it from far away. And I think that sense of perspective has been huge. And then, you know, my dad, I quote him all the time in talks and uh in interviews, and and you know, if you were to give me a few minutes, I could probably remember about 10 things. But you know, one of the things he always told me is like, don't look at what somebody does, look at why they do it. It's a much greater sense of understanding, and you can apply that to yourself too. Um, you can apply it to anybody who you think is inauthentic, you can apply it to anybody who you feel like is taking advantage of you. Like what might seem like a generous act can actually be quite damaging, or what might seem as a fuck you might actually be a misinterpreted act of generosity. So it's I think it's it it has stood me in very good stead to forget action or try to forget action and just look at motivation.
SPEAKER_03Um, were they um were they supportive of uh you becoming an artist?
SPEAKER_00Yes, and that that was a rare thing. Um I work with my older brother, he's a designer, and uh we did a dedication to my dad and uh and uh a book that he designed called Once Upon an Alphabet, and it just said uh uh to dad, thanks for never making us get a proper job. So there was, you know, the combination of the school supporting me because I showed an interest in anything, and then that support from home uh really give me a freedom that was not afforded to many.
SPEAKER_03Well, uh when you uh so about your brother, when you were kids, did you guys collaborate a lot together and play together, or were you separate?
SPEAKER_00We did, yeah. I mean, I've got I've got three brothers. Uh my older brother and I are uh closer in age, so there's two years between us, three years between me and the younger one, and then four years between him and the bottom one. And so we always joke with the bottom, but my youngest brother is like that. Having kids got progressively a worse idea as we showed up. Uh but you yeah, Rory and I, we we played together a lot. Uh we helped each other out in projects a lot, uh, through even high school and and through our college. And yes, we've worked together for decades. That's uh yeah, it's a it's a it's a very healthy working relationship to this day.
SPEAKER_03Excellent. Um, I have always felt um I didn't know I didn't know I didn't know nothing about nothing until I got out of high school, failed out of two universities, and I realized I had to give myself an education. And that's when I started reading. And because of the connection with my mom, uh my mother, my mother uh worked in the university library, so we were we were we were books. Um I have always felt akin to the the dark Irish humor.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know, the work of Shaw and uh Oscar Wilde and particularly James Joyce. Um do you have a do you have a feeling about that?
SPEAKER_00I do. I think there is there is a sort of a unique darkness to Irish humor that um that ends up playing into my work in a lot of ways. Uh and and what what is that exactly? I don't know. I suppose it's generations uh and generations of misfortune and abuse and uh you know difficult living. Um and nobody you either laugh or you cry, and nobody wants to cry, so you find a way to laugh at everything, including yourself. But I've always thought that there's a generosity in Irish humor, even though it's dark, it's victimless in some ways, so it's not necessarily uh blaming anybody else, it's it's almost sort of self-deprecating. And so I think there's there's an accessibility to it. So you don't need to be against something to be for Irish humor.
SPEAKER_03Excellent. Hey, have you ever have you ever read um uh Joyce's uh body letters to his wife Nora?
SPEAKER_00Um not all of them, but uh yes, uh uh through the years I've sort of flicked through some of them. And um uh Oscar Wilde in particular was a uh favorite. Um just with the the the wit and the humor in it. I think it's something that's either in the blood or it's something that we try to play up to, but it it it does, it feels feels part of the substance of who I am in so many ways.
SPEAKER_03Uh it one in one of his letters, in one of his letters, Joyce writes to Nora, and he's and it's completely pornographic. It's completely graphic and pornographic, but it is a beautiful love letter at the same time. You know, and and in one line, in one line he says, or two lines, he says, he says, I would know Nora's farts anywhere. I think I could pick hers out in a room full of farting women.
Humor, Irish Wit, And Influence
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I wonder if I could say that about my wife. Yeah, there's a there's there's just a specificity there that is just yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um hey, do you feel that um do you feel like your career and your life kind of came full circle when you um worked with you two on um ordinary love? Did it come full circle?
SPEAKER_00Hmm. No, no, I don't know. Did it it felt uh I don't know how that felt. It it felt like I was a YouTube fan growing up, so it felt incredible. It also felt inevitable in some ways. Um, but also at the same time when I was doing it, I was like, this cannot be the pinnacle, this cannot be um the the sort of the beginning of a loop uh in in in some terms, where um, and it was actually a a mutual friend of ours, and they sort of said it advised me, it was like, don't just become the regular go-to guy for them because it could end up being all consuming. Because they are I it always felt like I was treated as a as a collaborator and as a peer rather than as a gun for hire, which was really lovely. Yeah, but it they are a bit like a lighthouse in which the whenever I work with them on several different projects where whatever they're looking at is is fully in the center of the universe, and then whenever it moves on, it's in complete darkness, and which when you're trying to work in a project can be frustrating when you're trying to get an answer. Uh, but it was it was an incredible moment, you know, sort of starting off with um the one of the charity projects that that Bono does was one. I did a video for him at his invitation uh through Ted, and then which led to the music video for Ordinary Love, I suppose culminating in in between the video, the lyric video being made and it being released, Nelson Mandela died. And so we then had to reshoot uh with them coming to the studio and just sort of bang that out in 48 hours, which was a very interesting experience. Uh, to then going on to do all of the art for their uh the world tour for Songs of Innocence and Experience. It was an incredible experience, and I learned an awful lot from it, but I was glad to move on in some ways.
SPEAKER_03Oh, so that's where the uh the Mandela portrait came from at the end.
SPEAKER_00That's where the Mandela portrait came from, yes. So, yes, the the concept was to paint a portrait of Mandela as if it were in the shanty towns of Johannesburg. And uh we had like 12 hours to set it up. I was working with my friend Mike Primo on that one, and um all of a sudden we set it up. Look, working where the camera would go, we had one crack at it, and just before I'm about to begin painting, I was like, oh, hang on a second. I've got six hours to paint a realistic portrait of Nelson Mandela in real time without mistakes. It's like, oh, if I had time to think about it, it may not have gone as well. But because I was just in it, it was like, oh, I guess I'm just reacting now.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I well, I recognize I uh recognize the building, no?
SPEAKER_00It is, but well, but again, because of the time, um, it's the the fire escape staircase at the top of the Invisible Dog art building in my studio. Exactly. Yeah, but we we positioned the camera so it was sort of like could be anywhere.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know the elevator there. I spent time there, it's excellent. Um there, I think there are a few um similarities uh in our work, which is why I'm attracted to you. Um uh primarily I make work to make myself happy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, but this makes it difficult for me to work on commercial projects.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, I think you worked as an illustrator for a while. Um, do you do you feel that client illustrator uh relationship chafed on you?
Collaborating With U2 And Mandela
SPEAKER_00Oh, it very much so. Uh the you know, it's whenever I first came out of our college, I had always intended to get into being a fine artist. Um and then uh through the process of college, I discovered picture books, made a picture book, decided to get it published, it went well and it kind of blew up. And that that created this uh sort of interesting juxtaposition in my career at that point where uh the fine art that I was making, this is like back in the early 2000s, so you know, nearly 25 years ago, where galleries would be interested in my work, but then they'd find out I was the same guy who was doing these books for kids, and suddenly they would be less interested because there was a real, there was a real divide between the fine art world and illustration. Illustration was looked down upon as like the you know, the lowly stepchild of art, and it wasn't seen as fashionable or sexy, and it's like you know, things are quite different now. Um, and also back then you could only do one thing as an artist, you know, it's not like you could supplement your income with anything else or uh uh uh practice your your trade or craft anywhere else. So I knew that I was gonna have to take on illustration commissions to pay the rent and uh pay the bills. And and it it got to a point where it was like this is getting in the way massively. Yes, good money was coming in, was predictable, it was good, um, but it was getting massively in the way of the frustration of not being able to work on the ideas that I was having because all of my time was being given over to honestly making stupid amends. And it was one of the other reasons that that um I I sort of fell out of love with it. Was like, hey, who am I supporting here as a project? This doesn't feel like it's in line with some of my beliefs. Um, but also was like, why is the advertising industry in particular riddled with people who are trying to just justify their own jobs? So it was like, can you make this a bit more blue? It was like, why? You know, just so you can say you contributed in some way. It was like this is a massive waste of resources of everybody's time. And it just it just bothered me to the extent that this done for hire thing was so much of it was assuaging other people's egos. Um, and so I I opted, God, maybe 18, 20 years ago to to get out of that. And uh it was like definitely jumping into a swimming pool where you go down before you come back up again. Uh, and it's it's funny because I actually have gone full circle now where I've started doing some collaborations with with companies, um, which could be seen like illustration commissions, except it's not like uh I'm pitching there, you know, I'm pitching for the job. It's more like let's have a conversation about doing something, and I'm so so in such a better Position to work with people who I feel are uh in line with with my values and morals and transparency and you know social responsibility. So it's um it is funny that it's like actually I'm I'm doing more projects that could be considered illustration for the first time in a long time. Um, but yes, that back in those days, it was this massive obstacle in the way of creativity.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. I mean, I work with a lot of creatives who um that draw to just pay rent early on completely destroyed, you know, their their their hopes of their artistic career. Um, you know, and it's funny, it's funny you you mentioned the the the bush and pill pull of you know you can't be an artist and you can't be an illustrator and blah, blah, blah. Uh Tommy Ungerer had that, uh, had that as well. He did, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But he had the what I suppose the added complication of the, I suppose if you look at either extreme of his range, kid children's books and erotic biography. Because like that's cool, that's quite the sweep. Um, but uh, you know, an absolute genius, and I do think he would have been judged very differently had he been in his head today than he was back then.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Um, you have a particularly prolific career. Um, do you is there some is there some um words about uh discipline and consistency that you can share?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there well there's definitely there's this there is a sense of discipline that was like, you know, I think I think it was uh what's his name? Panther Chuck Close said uh never wait for the muse to show up because you'll be waiting a long time. Real artists show up every day. And there's something about that. It was just just show up and do the work. It doesn't have to be good, but there is there's a sense of discipline and an overriding sense of urgency at the awareness of my own mortality that kind of kept me going. No, I do it's it's interesting to you that you think that there's still this sort of um air of productivity about me because I've I felt nowhere near as productive in the last five years or so than than before that. And partly that's COVID and the geography of um my studio being divided in two, and also partly the the uh adapted schedule of having kids and you know being a good parent and and being an ambitious artist do not necessarily go hand in hand. And it's something that I struggle with over the while, but you know, sort of much more at peace with the reality that this window of parenting is but a blink of an eye in the grander scheme of things, and you know, so getting it took me a second to get my my hair screwed on right and my priorities straight, but I I definitely don't feel nearly as productive as I did seven, eight years ago. Um, and I'm okay with that for the most part. Apart from one, I do manage to actually get all of the the admin and the the housework and the homework and the the the stuff out of the road and then get down to the studio only to not feel like doing anything. That's that's a particular sort of frustration.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I hear you, I hear you. I think our kids are about the same age. I've got an eight-year-old and a 10-year-old, exactly the same age. And it and it it's it's it snowed uh here uh over the weekend. So we had school, we had snow closure days on school. So so they were here with me for for for a while. You know, I'm a single dad with two kids, and I had plans on getting work done, but you know, sledding took it.
Illustration Versus Fine Art Tensions
SPEAKER_00No, but you know, what are you gonna remember in your snow and I have to keep reminding myself of this? Is like what work is it that I was frustrated I was missing that I couldn't be present for their what you know their their moments of like the small stuff. But yeah, yeah, we had a uh it I don't think there's been a snow day in Northern Ireland and God's 30 years, but we had a storm day yesterday. So the the schools were all closed last minute, and so we just spent the day making brownies and lighting the fire and and uh watching awful TV. It was kind of grid. Yeah, but yeah, absolutely got nothing done.
SPEAKER_03Right now, you're thinking, oh man, I wish James Victory could be my mentor, my guru. Hell, I wish he was my coach. Well, you can make that happen. Go to your workisagift.com. There's a questionnaire that will probably help you out, but it'll also give you access to a free call. So let's talk. Let's free you from overwhelm and creative frustration. Let's build your business and help you get paid to do what you love. Again, go to your workisagift.com. Let's talk. Yeah, I had a situation where we were out, we were out sledding, and my job was bending over and pushing them down a hill, right? Um and I was freezing my ass off, basically standing around. They would go 20 feet and they would love it. And I'm getting frozen, and I'm thinking, okay, I gotta cut this off or I'm gonna lose my toes. And I'm about to say something, and my daughter, Nova, says, Daddy, she's eight. This is the first snowfall I will remember. And I bust into tears and said, Okay, let's go again. Yeah, good for you. Hey, suck it up, dad. Let's go.
SPEAKER_00Yep, you still got all your toes?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, all of them. All of them. Uh, you um, I draw and paint on objects, you draw on paint on objects. I know the boldness it takes to commit to a mark. Um, are you ever unsure? Do you have doubts?
SPEAKER_00Uh I mean, yeah, yeah, definitely doubts, but uh I don't listen to them that much. It's like I used to be a lot of very sort of protective of the objects that I would collect to make art on. And my good friend Mac Primo, who's a collage artist and a film director and does a lot of work with carpentry, he was just like, What are you being precious for? He's like, you know, he he had to downsize studio and he ended up having to get rid of a bunch of very precious collage material that we've saved him for years that he never got the chance to use. And he was like, just use it, man. And it's uh it that stuck with me. It's like you just gotta go for it sometimes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but yes, it's I would sometimes be torn between two or three ideas, and but I can't let myself hesitate too long because then just nothing will get done. You just gotta pick one and go for it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, cool, cool. Um, what I tell a lot of people is that when they ask me about creativity, um the thing about creativity is the ability to basically allow yourself that freedom. Like to get rid of the perfectionism.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it's play and it's like the the freedom to play. It's the getting rid of this self-awareness that you ever watch little kids draw, it's they draw with such a freedom that that adults get jealous of is because like that you know, they they're not self-aware and they're they're they're not applying this external pressure on themselves. It is play, they're simply playing, and it's like to try and get back into that not mind state. But I do I remember I've remembered something that has come in useful when I've talked to art college students, which is like not one single piece of work that I've ever done ended up the way that I thought it would. So almost, you know, within like the first few minutes, it goes off when it times like, oh, that's not how I envisage this happening. And at that point, that's when it gets interesting because then it's a conversation between you and the object that you're making, and it's informing you as much as you're informing it. And I think that's what there's like a really beautiful sweet spot there, is that it's that let's see, you're discovering together. And and I think that is actually what holds a lot of people up, is like, oh no, this is not going, this is not perfect, it's not what was planned. And it's like, no, but actually you gotta get past that to the point where that actually would be dull and boring and rigid and regimented. And what's interesting is this sort of loose the the life that comes from this let's see what happens mentality.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, the the inability to get there directly. Yeah. Um, I like to talk about this idea. It's called uh in the particular lies the universal. And actually, it's actually it's an idea I got from uh from from James Joyce's uh Dubliners. Um your book, We Are Here, Notes for Living on Planet Earth.
SPEAKER_01Here we are.
SPEAKER_03Oh, we are here. Here we are? Yeah, here we are. I'm just reading it wrong. Um it was begun as a letter, no? It was, yeah. Yeah. For your son, your firstborn.
Discipline, Parenting, And Productivity
SPEAKER_00Yes, I there was when he when he came out of the hospital, we're like, wait, you don't have to take a test, you can just take this brand new human license. Like, there's no there's no instruction manual, you know, you hear that one a lot, but it is a bit like, oh well, wait, hang on, now what are we doing? And so I started giving him a tour of where he lived, which at that point was Brooklyn. And you know, it started off like this this sort of hilarious, like I'm just narrating everything I see because I'm giving him a tour. Uh and the I I was cracking myself up because he didn't understand a word I was saying, but it did begin as this like it was 2016 when um he was born in 2015, and I started making notes then, and that's when Brexit happened, and it was when the beginning of this uh sort of current nightmare in American politics. And it's all over the world that things started to suddenly seem a lot more angry and a lot more divided and a lot more vitriolic uh in terms of public discourse, and I was like, Yeah, what is going on? And so I started trying to remind myself of these simple truths that I was trying to then translate down to him. And so I was like, Yes, it started off just writing notes that, like, look, yes, this is the world. It does feel a bit weird right now, but there's still beauty here. And uh the the simpler that I tried to make it, the more I thought that other people might benefit from re-remembering some of these simple truths that I was uncovering again with the idea of the responsibility of reaching the next generation. And yeah, then it became a book. And it's one of the only books that I've written entirely before I thought about putting any visuals to it because it wasn't designed as a book, it was designed, as you say, as a letter.
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, the beauty of it is it was made for an audience of one, and it ends up becoming about humanity's shared story, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, I was just at a book festival recently and I was talking about this, and it was like, if what is it that I was trying to teach my son with that book? It was like that he is a single person, but he's one of many, many single people. And, you know, in this, the idea of uh individualism and liberalism, there's there's I think we're starting to see the inherent uh consequences of when everybody has taught that they are the center of the universe, is that there's this growing lack of empathy that I think starts to systematically filter over an entire generation. And it does lead to, I don't know, a sense of entitlement or a sense of uh lack of interest in other people. And and you know, that that's something that has been playing on my mind is that there is there there is something here that we thought we were doing a good thing, but maybe we weren't doing such a good thing by I don't know, cotton-willing these kids and bubble wrapping them and telling them everything would be okay and everything would be perfect. It was like we denied them the opportunity to practice fear or to to practice that it's not about them. Um, and so it's while there is this notion of in in liberalism that is like uh you're all important. Um I believe something close to that, but it's the opposite of that, which is that nobody's important.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you're not special. No. Uh that leads to the next question. You have an uh give me your opinion about uh children and technology.
SPEAKER_00Uh well I um I'm an ambassador for the child phone free uh child phone childhood smart free. Oh god. Let me start that again. Yeah, smartphone free childhood campaign. Um so like that, that's uh Jonathan Height and I, and a UK doctor are ambassadors for this movement in the UK. And uh so I I do think that um technology is is useful if used in a considered way. Uh, you know, look at what technology has done for for health, uh, what it's done for uh equality, what it's done for education. There's like you know, there's a lot of things that not anti-tech at all. But I think this idea of just here's a phone, go distract yourself, I think that's awful. I think that's that's it's really, really awful. Uh and I think um, you know, the schools banning um phones is a step, but it's it's it's like it's it's almost you know putting a uh a band-aid over an amputated limb, really. It's like this one of these kids gets home, they have their phone waiting for them then, and the social media bullying can start up then. It's like there's just gotta be a movement. I think, and it's starting to happen, which is just this uh I think this moral responsibility of what is it that we're subjecting our kids to with phones with social media. Uh, and I think I think it's we're on the right side of it now, I do believe. I don't, you know, my kids know full well they're not getting smartphones or or anywhere near social media until they're at least 16. Um, they have iPads that they can they can watch things on uh for certain amounts of time. Um, but they're you know, we're fortunate we live where there's green space and so they can go outside and play. And uh they like enjoy reading books. And I think, you know, it's tech technology is part of a well-rounded childhood, but whenever it's used as a as a babysitter, I think that's can lead to mental health issues.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, um my fear is that the addiction, one, it's too strong, and two, it's so completely pervasive that uh, you know, moving away from it is uh it's a big step.
SPEAKER_00I think that's happening. Yeah, I do think that is happening. Um, but it, you know, it's just sort of unrelated unregulated technology use um just across the board, and even you know, through AI into that, it's it's uh that we are in this, I think this digital dark age, I heard somebody say it once, where it's just like there's a there's not one single system, and B, there's no regulation. And it's uh the w we will get through this, but there will be consequences to it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Um what can human brains bring bring to the table that AI cannot?
Creative Doubt And The Joy Of Play
SPEAKER_00Um lived experience, memory, um, emotion, failure.
SPEAKER_02Failure, flaws.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh it's like, you know, I've I've thought about this. That the AI is poorly named because it's not artificial and it's not intelligent, it's just a very powerful pattern algorithm. And uh it's it will never really invent anything. You will only rehash what's already been done. And as we know from the film industry, is like the next big thing is never a repeated last big thing that just sort of panders to your audience. And like, you know, for that, uh like there are there will be use for AI in terms of like you know, Marvel movies, those big studio movies where people just want like basically a check the box uh choose your own adventure sort of thing. But in the way that uh the Kindle did not kill classic print publishing, in fact, it just made it stronger. It got rid of things like textbooks and and uh newspapers, maybe, um, and it made what would be considered disposable publishing um print free. Uh but if you look at the bookshelves today versus 20 years ago, there's a lot more care that goes into the production and and quality of actual books. And I think we're gonna start to see that with filmmaking. And you know, this conversation about AI and art, it's like nobody wants half the people let me rephrase that. Very few people want a print on their wall when they could have an original. And uh AI will be useful as a sketchbook, I think, but there's it's it's designed for en masse, and so much of the art world is about the uh gathering to see an original object in its play. And AI is just not gonna do that. I don't think it'll ever do that. I don't think people want it to do that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, from your mouth to God's ears. Um, your work deals with uh a lot of cultural issues, so responsibility, climate awareness. Um does design or even um children's books have a moral or civic responsibility, Oliver.
SPEAKER_00I mean, yes and no. Um I think it depends on the the teller. I do I do, I think I've since having kids, I've become aware of just how many bad books there are out there, as well as a lot of good books that I missed. But I think you know, this the idea of using a children's book as a thinly veiled vessel to teach some sort of moral lesson is doesn't always make for the best kids' books. Um, but at the same time, I think if you all good stories in inherently will hit on some sort of moral or value. And it's just uh for me, the type of uh creator that I am is that uh if I'm trying to impart uh an observation or make a point, um I almost tend to not try and do it through the analogy of a kid's book. I will just take that theme head on. Like um, for example, uh here we are, was it's not it's not a story, it's a set of observations. Um and often after that I would just sort of I think lean into ultimately what would make for a good story or make for a good book, and being real with myself and where I am in the world. And and I suppose so much of what I do spend my time thinking about is the state of the world that that's invariably going to come through. But I don't think it was like, what is the moral or value or lesson I need to import to you? And then how do I disguise that into a powerful form in a poem of a picture book? That feels a bit backwards to me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. It's kind of akin to the uh that idea that Maurice Sendek talked about, right? The um, what is it that I write books for myself, but somebody else calls them children's books?
SPEAKER_00Is that what yeah, yeah. Yeah, there is there is something to that, I think. Um and it's yeah, so it's the both at the same time I go back and forth is like that. I give my audience a lot more credit than than than than most. And and you know, I I'm aware that children are a lot more intelligent than they're given credit for, but at the same time, it's like I I'm also writing books for the parents reading them. You know, and if I can uh get the a story concept or or a feeling across in a way that a four-year-old understands it and a 94-year-old understands it, then I think I've I'm on to something.
SPEAKER_03Cool. Uh simple question can art save lives?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like Ethan Hoff talked about this. It was like it's easy to dismiss poetry until uh your girlfriend breaks your heart or your father dies, and then suddenly, you know, art shows you that you're not alone in feeling this, the the the absolute massive, painful feelings that you're feeling, and uh and it uh I think it touches on something that transcends words.
SPEAKER_03Um you are uh you you come off as um learned, intelligent, um worldly, let's use that word.
SPEAKER_00Um is there room in your life for not knowing? Oh, I mean, I'm aware. There's the the the old Joe Harry window thing. Have you heard this? I mean, don't Donald Donald Rumsfeld get got shit for it when he said it, but he he was quoting this old uh uh sort of philosophical quadrant of knowledge, which is the the four areas of knowing. Uh that which you're aware of knowing, that which you're aware of not knowing, that which you're not aware of knowing, and that which you're not aware of not knowing. And the more that you know, the more you know you don't know, which is what he said, and he got crap for it. But he's absolutely right. The the more the more you learn, the more you realize how much there is to learn. Um, but I you know, I was like you, where I wasn't necessarily a big reader in school and or through our college. I sort of just did barely enough to get by um uh until I took a year off and went out into the real world and and learned a valuable lesson that I that I do try to impart to um students in high school and and in college, which is that you know nobody's gonna do the hard work for you. And uh A, everybody that you meet is pretty shit. Nobody really knows what they're doing. And B, you only get out what you put in. So if you think that you're sort of getting by or scraping by, uh, or you're pulling the wool over somebody's eyes, you're ultimately not. You know, if you want to be brilliant, you got to put brilliant work in. And you the you're only rewarded for the effort that you put in. Nobody gets lucky. There's no such thing as, oh, you're so lucky that you've got this far. It's like, no, there's only those are only people who've done the work. Yeah. Um, so I am a I am aware that uh if I want to understand something, you have to read about it. Um, if I want to learn something, you have to go at that with uh the a sense of discipline and curiosity in equal measure.
SPEAKER_03Excellent. Uh what what is um Oliver Jeffers' um wish for a beautiful future?
SPEAKER_00Oh I mean, right now global stability would be would uh I'd I'd take I'd settle for that. Um Yeah. Honestly, it does. It feels like dark days. Uh, but it is, and you know, it's it's difficult to to make art that's hopeful in dark days, but that's when it's needed most. And that's that's what I keep trying to remind myself of, and and uh that the work that I do helps people. Um but yeah, generally it's like I I do I do wish for this this sort of global cacophony of indifference and division to to quell down. And there is so much work to be done tackling the problems that we really have, like inequality, like climate change, without making new problems for ourselves. It's like there's jobs, there's there's a role for everybody to play in a future where the the societal and the structural rules are rewritten. And I was like, I just want to accelerate to the point where we all agree on the problem, the hierarchy of problems. Let's get to it. That's that's really what I would love. It's like this this sort of return to community and it uh turn away from just just consuming.
SPEAKER_03We started with um a question about what made you weird as a kid. Um Oliver, what makes you weird today?
SPEAKER_00What makes me weird today? Maybe the same things. Like that I just sort of I stop really caring what other people think. Um my uh my uh my willingness to ask the stupid question publicly, I think is is is is a it's a it I think it's a generous uh public flow in that uh I don't even know what it is, a flaw, it's a or a weirdness, but it's like I don't think there's anything wrong with not understanding something unless you weren't listening. And I think by asking the question publicly it allows other people the benefit of clarity. Uh that and maybe my dress sense.
SPEAKER_03Um I work hard at trying to teach my children how to say I don't know. Yeah, I think that's an important skill.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Maybe actually what maybe it's it's my my my belief that I still might have the ability to change the public the needle in public discourse in a positive way. In spite of all of the evidence against that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we continue to fight the good fight.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, Oliver, thank you. I really appreciate your time, dude.
SPEAKER_00You are very, very welcome. Yeah. And uh I'm again sorry I'm missing you in March in in New York. Um, but look forward to crossing paths with you soon. I look forward to keep seeing what you're making next.
SPEAKER_03Uh I look forward to bumping into you again somewhere around the world, yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. All right.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for your time.
SPEAKER_00Okay, my friend. All right, bye-bye.
SPEAKER_03Adios.