Episode 72: Lisa Congdon, Curiosity Over Fear

Joy isn’t a mood; it’s a decision you make when the world gives you every reason not to.

That’s the heartbeat of our conversation with artist, author, cyclist, and activist Lisa Congdon—a creator known for bold color, generous language, and the courage to be clear.

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Transcript

Meet Lisa Congdon

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I will admit that I'm a pretty even keel guy. I don't get too excited about stuff. But today I am a fanboy or fangirl. Whatever. I'm looking forward to sharing this with you. Let's go. My guest today is Lisa Congdon. Lisa is an artist, an author, an activist, a bike racer, a joy monger, and a person who has built a life by choosing curiosity over fear. And even over pain. You might know her work for its color and optimism, its generosity of spirit. It is joyful in a way that feels intentional. It's hard-won joy. The kind that comes from paying attention. Lisa came to art and design later than most. And then just didn't catch up. She built a practice rooted in community and justice and showing up as her whole freaking self. Who worked lives on walls and in books, in classrooms, and in the lives of people who needed permission to be exactly who they are. I've been a huge fan of Lisa's work for a long time. Not just because of what it looks like, but because of what it says and what it stands for. There's a courage in her clarity. There's kindness without apology. And there's a quiet insistence that joy matters. Especially now. So today I don't want to talk about her accomplishments or her accolades. I want to talk to her about where all this came from. So here we go. Lisa, welcome.

SPEAKER_05 2:21

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Childhood Weirdness And ADHD

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Um I not all of my podcasts are interviews. It's a it's a uh it's a rare celebration. Um, but I do start all the interviews the same by asking, Lisa, what made you weird as a kid?

SPEAKER_04 2:43

Wow. Um I think probably all the same things that make me weird now. Um I come from a family of weirdos. Um and so I never really grew up feeling that weird because I was probably of everyone in my family the least weird. Um and so it's really been in my adulthood that I've recognized uh kind of like how my brain works differently that I didn't necessarily understand when I was a kid because I was always touted as the one who had her shit together. Um but I realize now that I'm an adult and I'm around other people that um that I'm definitely like not neurotypical. So I think the thing that made me the weirdest as a kid was probably that I was a total space cadet, um, as my uh parents used to call me, which was funny because they were also everyone in my family is space cadet, um which I think like uh 1970s lingo for um ADHD.

unknown 4:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:03

So um in school I got called out a lot for staring off into space. And um, you know, I was one of those kids who probably, you know, could have had a diagnosis, but because I was a girl and I was also super well behaved and wanted to please everyone, I got, you know, I like slipped under the radar. Um, but I definitely had, you know, attention issues and my mind was always wandering. And um yeah, that that was um probably what made me the weirdest. Not super weird, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Um what um what advice or lessons uh do you remember that you were that your parents gave you?

SPEAKER_03 5:03

You know, that's a really interesting question.

The Orange And The Apple Lesson

SPEAKER_04 5:08

Um my mom was the person in my life growing up who I was the closest to. I'm still pretty close to my mom. My parents are still alive, they're in their late 80s now, and they live in town, so I get to see them frequently. And my mom was, you know, she's 30, exactly 30 years older than me. And so she was sort of born in the 1930s and um in the late 1930s, and had all kinds of like and grew up on a farm. So she had a lot of the advice she gave me was like old wives' tales-ish, you know. Um, but I do remember when I was in probably fourth grade, I had my first experience with a bully. And so there was a girl in the class who teased me incessantly, um, super mean to me. I I hadn't really experienced that too much before. And I remember my mom, I would come home from school probably multiple days, like having anxiety, crying, feeling defeated. And I remember my mom told me something that stuck with me basically for the rest of my life. And that was um, she said, like, you know, because I think I was sort of blaming myself, you know. Um, I mean, I was upset that this girl was was bullying me, but I think I took it as as though something were wrong with me. And my mom said, Lisa, when you squeeze an orange, what comes out? And I was like, orange juice. And she's like, you know, this girl, um, you know, what's coming out of her right now is 100% her and her, her stuff, like her issues, her own insecurity, her own problems, like it has nothing to do with you. And she used the analogy of like a piece of fruit, and you know, it's filled with the juice of that fruit, and that is all. And um, you know, she said, you have to think of her as the orange and you're the apple. And it was this like really profound moment for me because I got it. And I still think about that to this day when people push my buttons. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Oh, darling, I'm gonna share that with my kids this afternoon when I came up from school.

SPEAKER_05 7:36

It's a good one, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:38

It is, it is. Uh actually, I was showing them um um your work earlier, and I will say, hey, I spoke with Lisa, and guess what she had? Um uh your work, I would say, is um kind of prominently generous and inclusive. Um where did you learn empathy? Was it modeled or did you invent that yourself?

Learning Empathy By Necessity

SPEAKER_04 8:10

Interestingly, you know, my parents, they're they're good people, but they're like uh sort of silent generation. Um, they're like pre-boomer. Um, and I grew up, you know, this sort of story that I just told you about my mother was relatively rare. Like my mom um was not uh like neither of my parents were sort of effusively affectionate or or you know, like I I remember my mom like just you know telling us when we were little that you know she didn't compliment us too much because she didn't want us to get a big head, which meant, you know, like to be boastful or to think too much of yourself. And we know now that you actually in order to help kids feel secure, you're supposed to actually like tell them often that you love them and like you know, um help them understand that they're not necessarily special, but that they are like they're loved. And I didn't get a ton of that growing up. And so I spent a lot of like my junior high, high school years feeling pretty insecure and like very unsure of myself. And you know, I think for some people, not being told enough um that they're that they're okay and that they're safe in life um might turn them into somebody who's sort of cold and treats other people with coldness. But for me, I think I understood on a deep level that um I needed more love. And so um I got I ended up getting that in other ways and like figure that out in therapy and everything. But for me, I think like the empathy that I hold really came from a place of not getting enough of it growing up and understanding how important it it is, and um, you know, that I needed to surround myself with people who um could show up for me and be there for me, and that I also needed to be that person to other people. Um, and so I think, you know, of course, you learn it from people, and I'm I know I learned um, you know, some of it from my parents and some of it from other adults in my life, but it was something that I chose like purposefully and intentionally when I was old enough to like make a choice about what kind of person I wanted to be in the world.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Uh Lisa, tell me about I love this, I love what you have in your in your your your brief description um uh on your website. Tell me about being a joy monger and where can I sign up? And when did you first realize that that joy is not only just a personality trait, but um um a fucking act of resistance?

SPEAKER_04 11:01

Yeah, um I think because I spent a lot of my young adult life in a state of kind of like nervous system dysregulation around who I was and what my purpose was and you know whether I was any, you know, a piece of shit or not, you know. Like I went into a deep state of uh like I was definitely one of those people who was a seeker when I was younger. Like I grew up sort of not, you know, getting entirely what I needed to feel secure. And I think that's very common, um, especially for Gen Xers. Um but I eventually got to this place where I was like, well, I I I remember going to therapy, and my therapist was like, you know, I was like pretty much a victim and showed up in the world as a victim. And she presented to me that I had this amazing therapist when I was in my 30s, and she presented to me that if that that was a choice, and that if I could make the choice to be unhappy, um, and of course I had to believe that that was actually true. If I could make the choice to be unhappy, I could also make the choice to be happy. And so I went through this like deep exploration of you know, this idea of agency in my life and like whether or not I had the agency to think differently about who I was, how I showed up in the world, the difference that I wanted to make, um, whether or not making that choice could really lead to a different kind of life and everyday experience. And it did. And one of the things that I chose in that process of like going from being a sort of unhappy victim in the world to somebody who had agency was choosing joy. And that was something that you know felt um kind of radical at the time. Um, people weren't really talking about joy very much. Um, and my main form of expression is my art. And so, you know, I had spent all of this time being really unhappy. And I think once I figured out that I could choose joy, not necessarily happiness, because happiness feels different to me than joy, but that I could choose to be joyful even in the face of hardship or um, you know, the world being on fire or whatever, um, that felt super empowering to me. And so I like started to message that through my work. And um I think it resonated for a lot of people, and it's something that's really helped me get through um a lot in my life.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Super. Um, the idea of um coming into art and design uh later in life is kind of a is kind of an anchor point for you, I think. Um and you uh you even authored a book, right? You did um uh Glorious Freedom, Older Women Leading Extraordinary Lives, right? Um that is actually something that I like to talk about because I have I work with a lot of um creatives and and frustrated creatives. And I'm I'm often moved by the the line from um I think it's Ralph Waldo Emerson that says uh most men lead lives of quiet desperation. Me, the reason that they lead lives of quiet desperation is because they know in their heart of hearts what they're capable of, but they took a job instead. Um what part of yourself earlier did you learn to hide?

SPEAKER_04 15:16

Earlier?

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Do you mean like before you before you decided to become the Lisa Conan that we know now? Before before art and design.

Hiding, Visibility, And Being Seen

SPEAKER_04 15:25

I grew up very much believing that um that it wasn't my place to shine at all. Um you know, and I think again, these were messages I got a lot from my parents when I was a kid, like stay small, right? Don't have a big head. And I do remember, like my my parents, I think they're really proud of me and what I've accomplished. But I think it's still really strange, for example, for my dad, um, that I'm sort of as famous as I am. Like I think it makes him really uncomfortable. Sure. Because I think I was raised with this idea that you should stay small and quiet and not draw attention to yourself. And in some ways, like being an artist who, you know, whose career sort of collided with the kind of rise of social media. And like, you know, my my art career was sort of built online in a sense, and I have a very large audience, like that is something that is like really of the moment, right? It's you know, it's not unusual now, but I was one of the first people to sort of do that in, you know, as a self-taught artist who didn't already have fame. And um, and that was like in some ways hard for me because I was always raised to to feel like to hide and to to be small and to kind of like hide anything about me that might be special or interesting. Um and I think sometimes it's still a little awkward for me, just you know, because we kind of are always like fighting those things that we were taught when we were little.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Yeah, yeah. Um uh uh just an odd question. Um you have siblings?

SPEAKER_04 17:13

I do.

unknown 17:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Where when where are you in the in the I'm in the middle?

SPEAKER_04 17:18

We're all two years apart. Um, and um, yeah.

unknown 17:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 17:24

I have a younger sister and an older brother.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

Um interesting. We we have a very, you know, I think we spoke about this before. Uh we have a very similar upbringing. Um can you um can you can you talk to me about confidence? And is that a uh is that a natural thing for you?

Redefining Confidence

SPEAKER_04 17:43

I think it's something that I've learned as I've gotten older. Um I think it was like Debbie Milman, maybe once I had this conversation with her about confidence, and she was talking about it um like being something that you you don't necessarily have all of the time, but like the sort of like not I I can do this, but I I can try to do this, like I can show up and try to do the thing, and I don't know if I'll do it perfectly. And thinking about it that way has been really transformative for me. Like in order to do the thing that you want to do or you, you know, you want to be good at, like you don't necessarily have to believe that you can do it perfectly, but you can you can believe that you can try and that you can show up to do it the best that you can. And that's a different definition of confidence in some ways. Um, like I know that I can try and I know that I can show up, and I know that I can give it my all. And like that's where my confidence comes from. I also am a competitive cyclist and also later in life um thing that I do. And, you know, I feel like with art, it's less of an issue for me because I've become so proficient at doing what I do that I don't struggle a lot with confidence. And I think, you know, that's really kind of an amazing thing that like I've actually gotten to this place in my career where, you know, I get an assignment from a client and I'm just like, I can do this. You know, I know it might not be easy and I know that there's going to be struggles and ups and downs, but I know I can get through them and I have that level of confidence on the bike, not always, you know, like I'll do uh I ride mostly off-road and I'll embark on some like really technical trail or piece of terrain. And what I have to say to myself is like, I don't know for a fact that I can get to the end, but I am going to, I have confidence that I can try. And that, you know, if I if I get to a spot where I'm too scared, I can turn around. You know, I have agency, I have choice. So it's still something that I I um, I shouldn't say I struggle with, but I think I try things that are hard for me more now as an older person than I did when I was younger because I know trying isn't gonna kill me. Like I'm not gonna die. Like I'm not paralyzed by fear. So I don't know if it's like a it's definitely not an emboldened confidence, an emboldened confidence, like I got this necessarily all the time, but like um I know this thing isn't gonna kill me. And I want to see where how far I can push it or where I can go. So I'm going to try. And that that's the that's the kind of confidence that I feel like I have.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Cool. Cool. So it's always it's it's it's always there in your back pocket.

SPEAKER_05 20:48

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Yeah, yeah. Uh, you know, I get off I get asked uh on stage, like, you know, how can you be so confident? And I have to be honest with them and say, I am not. Right. But if I had given this last hour-long speech in a less confident tone, then I'm being of no service to you. So it's kind of my job.

Structure, Routine, And Prolific Work

SPEAKER_04 21:10

Exactly. I remember the first book that I wrote, um, it's called Art Inc. And it's a business book for artists, and it's over 10 years old now. But I remember when I was first writing it, I turned in the first draft, and my editor was like, Lisa, this is great, but you need to be more authoritative. Like, in other words, like I was using language like this worked for me, but it might not work for you. And you know, and she's like, No, you you you you're you've already built this business like out of your art, like you've you're you're get you're you know, you're successful. So like tell people how you've done it. That's what people want to know. And that was such an interesting, like, piece of feedback that I got. And sometimes I try to apply it to other things in my life, like Lisa, be more authoritative.

unknown 22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. Great advice. Um speaking of speaking of books, you uh when I look at your body of work, you are you you you come off as extremely prolific. You have a you have a you know a a a number of a number of books. Um you just had an exhibition, you've ha you've got you know um uh a body of of of of prints and big pieces and small pieces and originals. Um what tell me about I want to say what's the trick? Is it is it consistency? Is it showing up? You know, I was I was having coffee earlier with a friend, and I'm I'm I am quote unquote supposed to be writing a book right now. And you know, one of the things I talk about when I'm writing the book is I say, you know, writing is not hard. Sitting is hard. Yes. Agreed. Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_04 22:58

Yeah, it's interesting. Actually, we were talking earlier about the fact that I have to go, you know, after it we have a hard stop at the end of this interview, and that's because I just got my next book deal and all and have my first meeting with the editor. Um and so I'm about to embark on writing a book this year, and I haven't done that in a few years for a while. As you mentioned, it was like a regular cadence for me. And I have to get myself back in that mindset of like long-term project, yeah. Um, where you actually have to show up regularly or you will get, you know, super behind. And books are kind of special that way because they're very long term. I mean, most illustration work that I do, you know, I've had a two jobs this past year that lasted several months, but you know, that's pretty rare. Most of the time, the turnaround is much faster than that. And so books are special because they're they're long, they take a long time.

unknown 23:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:54

Um, and I think, you know, whether it's juggling all the different things that I do or focusing in on one project, especially somebody who has a little bit of a monkey brain um and is a quote space cadet still.

SPEAKER_03 24:11

Oh, you don't care about it.

Activism And Art As A Vehicle

SPEAKER_04 24:14

I feel like I am more of a space cadet at 58 than I was when I was eight. But um I think for me, the antidote to my whatever anxiety I have or inability to sit still for a very long time is um is discipline and routine. So I have learned about myself that I thrive when I have structure. And um which is sort of antithetical to what a lot of people think works for people um like weirdos like me who whose brains are are a little bit um all over the place. But like I was talking about cycling earlier, like I've become a very strong cyclist in my older years because I am very disciplined about doing my workouts. I work with a coach, I also do strength training three times a week. And people are always like, How do how do you, you know, on top of all the work that you do, how do you manage to fit all that in? And I'm like, because the structure of it is actually very calming for me, and it also keeps me in my body because art is very cerebral and um writing can be very cerebral. So I like having like things also in my routine that ground me and that helps me kind of show up in other ways for my work. Um, but yes, I think like having a routine, um I work really hard to stay organized around my projects and set myself um short-term goals. So I get really overwhelmed by like big things that are happening in the future, like, oh, I have to write this whole book by this time. And what I've learned over the years is that if I break that big thing down into smaller parts and then set myself, you know, goals around what I'm gonna accomplish that in these very manageable chunks, um, like literally from day to day, that that really helps me to kind of manage my whole workload. I also am learning as I get older that I have less and less of a desire to do all the things and have so many parts of my business. And so I'm, you know, spending a lot of time thinking about what I can let go of and how I can simplify because I think I'm also realizing that I thrive more when I have more spaciousness in my life to like um take care of myself and not be rushing all of the time, which is sort of how I operated for many years in you know, as I was growing my career.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Cool. Cool. Uh you also describe yourself as an activist. Um what I I I do as well. But um, what drives that? Is there an emotional engine to it?

Influences: Folk Art And Corita Kent

SPEAKER_04 27:06

What what what I think I've always sort of been a person who like even when I was a little kid who like wanted to do the right thing, um, like I was always that kid who was like nice to the dorky kids, even though I wasn't technically like one of the one of the extreme weirdos in class. Like I think I've always been a person who has sort of felt this need to, you know, fight for the underdog. Um and I also, you know, came out as queer when I was in my early 20s and you know, which was in the 1990s, and the world was a very different place at that at that time. And I think when you are like suddenly identifying, you know, with a group of people who are marginalized, it often can it can, it doesn't always happen this way, I'm sure. But like for me, it it sort of illuminated inequity and um you know, uh like vulnerability in all kinds of communities, not just the one that I was part of, and opened my eyes to you know to injustice everywhere in a way. And so when I was younger, I actually left teaching to go work for a nonprofit organization that um worked in schools to improve education for kids of color. That was like my work um for many years. And I remember when I left education to make artful time, like in a way I felt sort of guilty because I was like, oh, like I guess I'm gonna have to volunteer now to my time to causes because I've left, you know, giving my life to this, you know, to this work. And now I'm gonna do this selfish thing like called art, right? And what I didn't realize at the time is that, and I this I figured this out pretty quickly, but like, oh, this is this is actually an opportunity to use my talent and skill to talk about the stuff that is important to me um through my work. And that sort of became the the vehicle for being even more of an outspoken activist than I was when it was my daily work.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Oh, very cool. Uh uh design nerd question. Um when I uh when I look at your work, and I've known your work for you know probably as long as you've been making it. Um I've always felt uh two seen two strong things in it. Um and I've just realized recently, doing some homework on you, that you cite um Alexander Girard as a creative influence. I didn't see that.

SPEAKER_05 30:16

I love that you didn't see that.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

What's that?

SPEAKER_05 30:19

I love that you didn't see that. That's sometimes all I can see.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

And I and I, you know, and I and I and I dig, you know, I mean I I dig I I for a long time had that massive coffee table book of his. But um what I always saw, which which I think is just, you know, again, it's it's my orange juice, is um uh things I was interested in. One, um the folk art aspect. Yep. And two, particularly crazy quilts.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

You know crazy quilts?

SPEAKER_00 30:51

I think they're the most fantastic thing on the planet. Uh and the third is um uh not Alexander Girard, but Sister Greta Kent.

SPEAKER_04 30:59

Yeah, yeah. Um, I love all those things. And actually, interestingly, um Alexander Girard was enormously influenced by folk art and started the folk art museum in Santa Fe. And so I think you know, the you know, taking him on as somebody who was is a big influence in my work is probably partly due to the fact that he also used folk art as inspiration in in a similar way that I do. Um I love all those things. In fun fact, um I I love Sister Corita, and I in November of 2022, I got an email from my alma mater, and there's a I went to a school called St. Mary's College in in California, and there's a museum there, and they wrote to me and they were like, um, we are hosting uh exhibit of Sister Corita's work in um September of 2023, and we would like to, but it's only going to take up half the museum. We would like you to fill the rest of the museum with your work in a, you know, in conjunction with hers. We know she's a big inspiration of yours. And it was like kind of a full circle moment for me because um here was my college alma mater, and I had like this really magical experience at school. Um, so I really had sort of fond memories of college, so it was good. Um, telling me that they wanted me to come back. I was the first alumna to have a solo show there. And it was an odd in art school, didn't even it had like an art program, but at the time, you know, like art classes. I don't even know if you could major in art. So anyway, that was something that I worked toward, and I made an entire body of work that was sort of spoke to Sister Karita and and her work. And um, so I can on I can say I sh I had a show with Sister Karita.

unknown 33:00

Excellent.

SPEAKER_04 33:01

Posthumously for her, but that was like an amazing moment. And and actually it was all screen prints, um, all sarographs, because that was her her um that was her they when they first asked me to have the show, they were like, you can do whatever you want. And I was like, well, clearly I'm gonna make, you know, 57 serographs because um because that's what Sister Creeta would have done.

The Way Through: Collage And Healing

SPEAKER_00 33:28

So it's really super. What a great story. Yeah, that's fantastic. Um uh last year you had a solo exhibition, and it was called The Way Through? Okay, so um I am a um I am a um right now you're thinking, oh man, I wish James Victory could be my mentor, my guru. Hell, I wish he was my coach. Well, you can make that happen. Go to your workisagift.com. There's a questionnaire that will probably help you out, but it'll also give you access to a free call. So let's talk. Let's free you from overwhelm and creative frustration. Let's build your business and help you get paid to do what you love. Again, go to your workisagift.com. Let's talk. A student of Marcus Aurelius and Meditations, uh the Stoicism. And, you know, there his his um from his diary, his journal, he says, you know, what what stands in the way becomes the way, right? The obstacle becomes the way. And it's about it's about changing your perspective and obstacles not being roadblocks, but opportunities, if, you know, if you can see, right? Um, tell me about the origins of uh the way through.

SPEAKER_04 35:00

Yeah, so I in at the end of 2024, I had the first of two total knee replacements. Um and I knew I so I took three months off of work, six months off my bike, um and um out of the gym. And I before I left to go home for three months from my studio, I got this big plastic bin and I like piled in all these art supplies because I I knew that having this time, um, it was like the first sort of intentional break that I had taken in my adult life. And, you know, yeah, it was to have this very painful, intense, invasive surgeries on my knees, but like it was still like I could check out. And there's something about checking out with permission that is very freeing. And I was like, okay, I can read, I can do puzzles, I can do all these, I can just chill. And by the way, I found out I'm really good at chilling. I was very worried that like it was gonna be uh a you know a mess because I was gonna have to sit still for so long, but it turns out I'm I'm pretty good at it anyway. So I was like, oh, and I can make art and I could just do whatever I want because I had like, you know, finished all my client work, didn't take any new client work. So I fill up this bin with all these art supplies. And then about two weeks after my first surgery, I was like well enough to sit at a table and I just dug in the bin and pulled out the sketchbook and was like, okay, I'm gonna make collage because that felt like the easiest thing for me to do. And then I got pretty addicted to collaging and I made this behemoth sketchbook that had, you know, sometimes I made two or three collages in a day, sometimes only one. And I like did them pretty much every day until my second surgery, and then took a short break after my second surgery and then started again and got really into it. And when I got back to the studio after three months, I of course intended to continue keeping this sketchbook, but instantly got back into regular life and realized it was sort of a marker of time of that time in my life, and that was fine. Simultaneously, I was like, oh shit, I have a solo show this summer in July. This was in February of last year. And I was like, I don't know, I have any clue what I'm gonna make for this show. And I got this idea that like maybe I could turn some of the collages that I had made into paintings. And um so the the exhibition became um sort of like the this collage sketchbook, which by the way, part of what I love about sketchbooks is that, you know, you're you're putting something in a book, and so you're not making it to sell. You're not necessarily even thinking about it as something that could turn into something else. Like it's just art for art's sake. It's exploration for exploration's sake. And so all of the collages are super wonky. Some of them are narrative, some of them are more abstract, but they're all, you know, they have I did them pretty quickly. They all have these kind of wonky cut marks. But I realized like that's what was special about them. So when I made the paintings, I tried as much as possible to like keep the weird edges in things. And um so it was like transforming this, you know, body of work that I made, kind of in my style, but out of cut paper, into 2D paintings and super fun. And most of them are a lot bigger than obviously the pages in the sketchbook. And some of them did not translate well to painting. So I did a lot of experimenting and some of them made amazing paintings. I had to change the background color in some cases, but um yeah, had this whole exhibit of paintings of collages. And um it, you know, the way through was sort of like my way of describing what collage became to me during that time. You know, I was like basically by myself most of the time in living in the basement of my house because I was not walking up and downstairs a ton. And I had access to a television and a microwave. And of course, you know, I would go up and downstairs to the kitchen and my wife would come down and and help me with things, but I was mostly down there. And um I got kind of depressed, and you know, I was going to physical therapy every day, and like that was like torture super really, really painful. Oh, yeah. And um sitting down and doing collage was this very grounding exercise for me, and it was like the thing that brought me joy, probably more than doing puzzles and more than reading books, which are two things I love to do, by the way. And it just was like basically my way through that time. And so the show then became this way of honoring that process um and sort of turning it into something, you know, that turned out to be really magical, into something that other people could experience and absorb. Um, so you know, I'd kind of created this new visual language in a way through my collages that made its way into this other body of work. And people were asking me, like, oh, does this mean that you're, you know, does this point to a new direction for you? And I'm like, I don't really think so. I think this is just like a marker of like this time in my life. And I'm not sure I'll ever do anything like that again, but um, but that's okay with me. Like it's it's not everything has to sort of become something else.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah, no, I've I had um major a major accident. Um I think it's now like five years ago, where I broke my right collarbone and all of my ribs on the right side. And um, it is amazing how fast the body atrophies and how hard it is to to you know to to to come back.

Recovery, Resilience, And Showing Up

SPEAKER_04 41:25

Yeah, I actually have spent, I mean, now it's been I went back to work in February of 2025. And so it's been a year that I've been back, and I've been back on my bike since the middle of March of last year, and I'm now back to like full fitness and deadlifting more than I did lift it before. So, like I'm like totally back, but what a journey last year was like just you you have to like remind yourself like to just keep showing up because eventually you'll get there, and it feels like you never will, but yeah.

Can Art Save Lives

SPEAKER_00 41:59

Excellent, excellent. Here's a simple question. Um, can art save lives?

SPEAKER_04 42:04

Yes, it saved mine, that is for sure. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

I predicted that answer.

SPEAKER_04 42:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Um, you know, I was thinking about thinking about talking to you and I was and I and I I'd done my homework and I, you know, wrote wrote these questions. And I had a moment I was like, James, what would you want to be asked? And what I wanted to be asked was, um Lisa, what's the one question that you wish someone would ask you in in an interview? Because you've been interviewed as you know, probably you know, as much or more than I have. What's the one question that no one's ever asked?

SPEAKER_04 42:49

Hmm. I mean, I feel like I've been asked most things. Um I don't know. I I think like maybe what's what brings you the most joy, or what is your idea of like the perfect day?

Hope, Wokeness, And A Better Future

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Ah okay, well, I I I do have that question. Hang on one second. Can you describe for me? Um, I mean, you you know, you are you are like me, you are uh sensitive. And it is a shitty fucking time right now to be sensitive. Um, you know, uh there was a there was a war on being woke, and I cannot uh, you know, to be woke is is difficult right now, to be to be compassionate, to be understanding, to be able to see uh, you know, both sides and understand. Um can you describe for me or can you tell me what your wish for a beautiful future is?

SPEAKER_04 44:00

that riff on my on my perfect day what is i mean i i i what what i see happening right now on the upside of all of this is that people are waking up people who did not think that what is that the that the inhumanity being pummeled on brown and black people in particular and queer people and women that that doesn't affect them and what i think people are waking up to is that no one no one is immune from that hatred and that when you stand up for or literally stand in the way of um protecting people from harm you then become the target also and that um you know yeah one could argue that like basic decency and like understanding and being empathetic towards and sensitive towards other people's pain and suffering or the injustice that other people experience is enough but I think for some people it's like it doesn't affect me so I don't care and what I see happening is that more and more people are waking up to caring even some people who you know were were formerly MAGA and and I that like I hate that what's happening has had to happen for people to wake up but I have never in not even in 2016 um when I saw a lot of this um I have never seen so many people come out of the woodwork and say this is not okay with me on the internet. Cool um people who've been previously maybe privately progressive in their politics supportive of um social justice movements but never say on their business feed or in their work profile or even on their personal profile like never spoken out and people are speaking out and I think the more like we have I I predict that on March 28th we will see the next No Kings rally we will see larger crowds than we have ever seen and so for me like the you know a a future that I look for is where um everyday people who have lived in the comfort of their privilege for their entire lives um will start to um march in the street for people who do not have that privilege. And I think we're seeing that more and more and more. Yes, there is a divide but I do think that people are are waking up and willing to have that wokeness be part of their everyday language in a way that it in that they've maybe hidden it before been secretly you know activist are now like you know we we all the time we hear people talk about what radicalized them you know and I just am I'm in I'm I'm I'm heartened by how many people are being radicalized by what's happening right now in the world. And I see a future where where um where so much good is happening because of that. Um and I don't know what that looks like exactly yet but I do actually am one of those people who has a lot of hope for the future.

A Message To Eight-Year-Old Lisa

SPEAKER_00 47:47

Cool. Yeah yeah I am as well and I have a uh I have two beautiful angels around me um a lot uh you know I'm a single dad with two kids and um last night before bed we we I felt she's uh Nova is eight and Wyatt is ten.

SPEAKER_04 48:09

I see them often on your social media and um they're they they look amazing.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

They are they are kind and generous kids. It's really I'm I'm extremely lucky. Last night we had um I was like I think they're ready and um I watched I had them watch a uh um this beautiful um um uh black poet she read this she read this poet about white privilege and I they they they listened to the whole thing and then we had the conversation about what white privilege is um because because you know we need them they they are the future you know I'm afraid of I'm afraid of the trickle down I'm afraid of you know um other kids being taught in different ways so especially you know I live in a you know small town Texas where um we are not the I don't know if we're the majority or not so um um I got one one one last little thing for you um you don't know this but the eight year old uh Lisa Condon is sitting with us here what do you think she thinks of you that made me feel a little emotional um I think she uh is feels full and um like she's living fully and like she is um like her life is everything that she hoped it would be but maybe for a period of time never thought was possible but now she knows it is so yeah excellent um Lisa Congden thank you for a beautiful conversation oh thank you for having me this is really fun okay