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The Wait Until 8th Pledge: A Small Town’s Big Stand on Smartphones with Jordan Spicklemire (Part 2 of 2)
Send Ben a message, he'd love to hear from you.
In Part 2 of our conversation with Jordan Spicklemire, we shift from personal experience to community action. Jordan walks us through the Wait Until 8th pledge — a national movement with a powerful local twist — and how she’s helping Morton families join forces to delay smartphones until after 8th grade.
We talk about how the pledge works, what makes it doable, and how a small-town community can offer the kind of support parents need to hold the line.
This episode explores:
- What the Wait Until 8th pledge actually is — and how it gets activated
- Why the “10-family model” makes peer pressure easier to manage
- Alternatives to smartphones (Gizmo, Bark, dumb phones, and more)
- How parents can talk to kids about screen time — and take back family time
- Jordan’s vision for building school support and PTO partnerships
- And why it’s never too late to reverse course, even if your kid already has a phone
💬 “We’re not anti-phone — we’re just pro-childhood.”
If you’re tired of feeling like the only parent saying “not yet,” this episode will remind you that you’re not alone — and that change can start right here in Morton.
📲 Learn more or take the pledge at: waituntil8th.org
📘 Join the Morton-based conversation on Facebook: Wait Until 8th – Morton, IL
#MortonMuseAndNews #WaitUntil8th #ReclaimChildhood #SmartphonesAndKids #MortonIL #SmallTownStrong #ParentingInTheDigitalAge #AnxiousGeneration
Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt
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Muse Morton (the studio and gallery)
Yeah. Welcome to Morton Muon News. Jordan, this is your first time here.
What do you think of our place?
It's really cool.
Got a lot going on here, huh? There's
a lot to look at. Yeah.
Yeah. Jordan is here today. Jordan Spic Meyer.
Correct.
Wow, that's such a cool last name.
She's here today to talk to us about an initiative that she's taking on. And you are going to be like, how are you identified as like the local representative for wait until eighth?
Yeah, like the chapter lead in. Okay.
Now is and we'll probably get into more of this. There's information somewhere online that ties wait until eighth.org to your name yet?
Not on
their website. Not on there, no, it's, it's not organized in that way. Organic. That's just, yeah. Okay. I made a Facebook group.
Okay. For
the Morton. We'll definitely get into that. 'cause I'm in that
group as well. Yeah,
you are. Okay.
First thing though, I like to kind of get into rapid fire questions.
Oh boy. Just kind of like things that are your faves, your least faves. Okay. Favorite book? Most recent. Favorite book. Anxious Generation. Well, yeah. Most recent. Yeah. We're gonna talk about that. Yeah. Okay. For sure. What about in the past? You got a good old in past. Yeah. Trustee read anything? Dr.
Seuss, right in the Heart.
I've got two young kids. You got, so I'm constantly reading kids' books.
Last favorite question, candy.
Reese's
Peanut butter cups or pieces?
Never pieces.
Never pieces. Never.
No. The cups not even
at a movie theater?
Nope.
Okay.
No. Okay.
Uh, least favorites, least favorite food.
Oh. Other than Reese's Pieces.
Yeah. Other than Reese's Pieces. I am, I'm not a fan of brussel sprouts. I wish that I was.
Yeah. They're supposed to be really healthy, untold.
Abstract or concrete?
Concrete. Okay.
I think that says a lot about a person. Yeah. Because there's, I feel like two parks of people. You know, there's these abstract thinkers, concrete thinkers need these kinds of rules and laws and regulations.
Yeah. Yeah.
I do like rules. Yeah. But I also, everything has also like to break rules too. See, that's also a challenge. This is
fun.
Okay. Yeah. All right. That concludes
my rapid fire question.
Did I make it?
I think you did. Yeah.
This is, this is great. This is, I think, a fast way to get to know somebody a little bit for the listeners out there. Yeah. They're, they're hopefully getting a sense of, you know, who you are, what your preferences are. But I would like to give you now a turn to give us a little bit of background. You mentioned Carmel, Indiana.
Mm-hmm. You mentioned Ball State, give me like a brief little three to five minute, what brings you from, let's just say, high school in Carmel, Indiana to where you are today?
Okay.
Graduated from Carmel High School. Okay. 2004 with a very large class Carmel's, a really big school.
Yeah. What happened then?
Then went to Ball State. Okay. And thought I would be an elementary school teacher.
Okay.
And really hated making lessons. How far into
Ball State did you get before you realized?
First semester.
First semester? So, so you switched tracks right away? Yeah. Next semester, I think it was. I think it was, you're in the office, you're like, yeah, I can't do this. I gotta get outta
this. And then switched to psychology. 'cause I had had just the intro, you know, psych 1 0 1 class Uhhuh thought, oh, this is neat. That peaked
your attention.
Yeah. Why do people do what they do? What they do? Yeah. Why do I do what I do? What I do? I still haven't figured the answer.
Oh. I'm,
I'm not claiming to have figured it out either. I just like to learn Just a endless journey. Yeah. Yeah. Constantly growing. And then just loved all of, I really did love all of my classes.
Even statistics and I was not a math person, but I liked the, like, psychological sta statistics. Okay. Um,
so then you graduate from Ball State Univers,
pSU Cardinals in 2008. And then the job market was a bit of a challenge. Okay. And I just wasn't finding anything 'cause I didn't have experience in the field 'cause I just graduated.
So what
a conundrum. Right.
Yeah. It, I mean it's always been that way. No, no place
wants the new person.
Right?
Yeah.
And so then I took a, a retail job for, I don't know, maybe about nine months. And I was like, I don't enjoy this very much. Okay. And decided to go to grad school. I decided to go into marriage and family therapy.
Okay. For your graduate? For graduate school program.
Okay. Applied and got into Indiana Wesleyan.
Okay.
And I got pretty far into the program and I did not like counseling couples. Okay. You know, I was in my very early twenties, I was living at home to help pay for grad school. Yeah. And it was just a weird space to be in, to be working with these adults that were going through these marital issues and constantly just yelling at each other.
Yeah.
And I, but I liked talking with their kids when, when family sessions would happen. Ah. Um, I liked hearing about their kids and then I accidentally got placed in a school rather than it, I wasn't on the school track yet. Right. But I liked being at the, at a high school and so I thought, I'm gonna switch.
Okay. I'm gonna move into school counseling. And it was the best decision. Okay. Because it was just this perfect blend of, mental health, maybe adjacent. I mean, it is, there's mental health obviously involved. Right. But paperwork tasks, I didn't mind that part of it kind
of. And I also, I would guess I would be so bold to say though, that like as a 20-year-old trying to give marriage advice Yeah.
To people perhaps it's not even advice, but counsel Yeah. It wasn't advice, you know. Yeah. Marriage counsel, there's gotta be a little bit of a feeling of being an imposter Yeah. In that space. Oh, totally. But when you're dealing with. Inside of an area, a realm that you've already dealt with your own childhood.
Mm-hmm. You can have some, you can have two legs of confidence to stand on and be like, Hey, I was a kid once too.
Right. So
it just probably feels a whole lot more comfortable.
Yeah. Well, and I, and I liked learning about. People. I liked the, like the family systems part of it and making genograms and understanding, well, your mom was like this and her mom was like this, and how that all worked together.
Is
that what a genogram is?
Yeah. They're these fancy little kind of maps that you can, um, put together a whole family and where
gene meaning genetics, pictures, pictures of something like that. Okay. That's square. We're trying to break the word down circles and Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. It's pretty cool. Now I gotta
look up what genograms are.
I,
I had to get a book about it, so Yeah.
Sounds kind of fun. Yeah. Is it kind of like, the, oh, like dominant and recessive trait stuff in biology? Is it like that? Except it's How about personality stuff?
Yeah, it's personality things or like fractured relationships or just explaining or hoping to explain why do you do this in your relationship?
And it's a map.
Yeah, I definitely gotta look that up.
Yeah.
Okay. So that gets you into the school. Yeah. You graduate then with the specification of master's in school counsel, masters in school counseling. Mm-hmm. Did you get into a job right away?
I did. So I graduated in December of 2011. And actually against the advice of my professor at the time.
Oh. I took, this is you
breaking rules. I, yep. I took
a job as a registrar at the high school. I ended up being a school counselor at Oh. Because again, I wasn't getting bites on my applications 'cause I was fresh out, so tough and I thought, here's my foot in the door. Yeah. And in the counseling office.
Right. So even if I ultimately don't work at this school,
right.
I've seen the inside. I can at least talk the lingo and, you know, say I've, I've been in here and maybe just make some connections anyways.
So then there was a distinct moment then when they, when the school turned to you and said, Hey, we might have a new position.
Or somebody else is leaving you. A
woman was retiring. Oh
man. You just got in, in like a thief.
Yeah. That's awesome. It was pretty cool.
That's great. What was that? How many years did you stay at that school?
Five.
Okay. And at some point in time you end up leaving
yes, I had, I hadn't planned on it. Okay. I hadn't planned on Le leaving Indiana, to be honest.
Yeah.
Fast forward to now my husband Brian.
Oh, love.
Oh yeah. Love changes everything.
I didn't plan on falling in love.
Yep. Yep. Okay.
Okay. So, tell me how you met your husband, Brian?
Uh, yep. Brian through Tinder. Oh, talk about technology online dating. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, we swiped right. And it worked and, but I didn't fully understand how Tinder worked, to be honest. I thought you had to live in the place where, and I, I didn't know, I don't know,
you have, you have uh. A lot of good luck, I think. It seems so, like these serendipitous moments, you're like, Hey, I really didn't, I discovered that I didn't like mm-hmm. You know, this part of college education.
I didn't want to go to be a elementary school teacher, and then I just shifted this way and then I got into counseling, marriage Yeah. Counseling. And I didn't like that, so I just shifted a little bit this way. Yeah. And these little opportunities, little doors keep opening up for you.
Yeah. Things that's great are just kind of all, even with past jobs that don't seem related.
Yeah. They have all helped inform who I've been as a school counselor. Yeah. Just working with people and, and getting the chance to meet and hopefully help
people. Yeah. Is it luck or is it a mindset? Is it like personality trait? It's both. It's a little bit of both.
It's both, yeah.
Interesting. Some people have it, things, some people don't.
Yeah.
Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about Brian, what brings you to eventually then you come this way? Yeah. From Indiana to Illinois.
Well, he bought a house.
Okay.
So that kind of skill. Yeah. We were only dating, I couldn't say, Hey, don't do that.
Yeah. Obviously it ended up working out. Yeah. But so he went to Bradley, he's from Indiana too. Oh, he went to Bradley and then went actually back to Indiana for grad school. Okay. We didn't know each other yet then obviously, and then came back here. We met in 2016. Okay. And then in the summer of 2016 is when he, he bought the house we live in now.
Okay. Okay. You got a little family?
We do two kids. Two, two kids. Camden, he's five and a half. And then Lily is two in October.
Good names. I'm a little judgy on names.
Are you? Yeah.
A little bad. Well,
Camden, my grandfather, traditional names was Robert Camden, and so I really liked, I we took our, each of their names from somewhere.
Robert Cam. That sounds
like a general, in an army.
Uh, yeah. He was Colonel.
Oh
yeah. Colonel what? Colonel? Robert. Robert Camden. That's great. In the Air Force.
Man, I don't know why that just speaks to me. That leave was some sort of a general or colonel. Yeah. It's so cool. Now that brings us right up to where we are today about, right?
Yeah. Okay. And the reason why I think our paths connected our little Venn diagrams of circles. Yeah. Probably goes back to Don Stern. Yeah. I believe over at Morton High School.
Yeah.
As he is working his last two years, I believe. Yeah. I listened to the Yeah. Developing technology and its uses inside of the classrooms.
And his episode was about, I think there was at some point in time in his episode that was distinctly about cell phones. Yeah. And it was about the uses of technology and, and a little bit of the confusion about what parents understand technology to be Yeah. And how that's different than, well, how parents understand technology in schools.
How that's different than technology specifically on a cell phone or generally at home. Right. Right. And then I'm not sure, was it my wife? Was it Katie then?
Mm-hmm.
Somehow connect with you? Well, she joined the
Facebook group.
Your Facebook group that you just how new is this Facebook group?
Less than a month.
Okay. And it is called wait until eighth
dash morton com Illinois Morton.
Okay. Okay. And so she's in the group. Mm-hmm. And she posts that interview Yeah. The, the group. And then somehow the lines were crossed and connected that you should maybe Yeah. Come and seek out the podcast.
Well, I had listened to that episode already.
Okay. And I listened to Don and Stephanie's care You Yes. Podcast that they do for the district, which is really great. And yeah, so just commented like, yes, I listened to this. It was great. Yeah. And then she messaged me and said,
perfect.
Like,
that's the organic thing about this kinds of small town stuff that I Yeah.
I don't imagine are inside of those big schools and are, you know, are hard, hard to come by inside of those big cities. In general. So tell us a little bit about what is the seed of this, this wait till eighth, you've got two little kids, they don't have cell phones, right. They're obviously very too young yet to have cell phones.
Have they expressed the desire? Well, what you
think? They certainly look at it. It's this shiny rectangle that makes noise. Yeah. And flashes and mommy and daddy are each looking at probably too much. But I think really what sparked it for me was first, last summer reading the Anxious generation and then I, by Jonathan Height, I just couldn't get it out of my head.
And then I just started to notice things more, um, younger kids out and about. And I need this to not come across as judgmental. 'cause I understand it. I have two small kids. I understand like sometimes you just need to get something done, but just this. Instant kind of knee jerk. Like here's a device.
Mm-hmm. And they are kind of sold, I think falsely to parents. Like, this is something that will help them. Or here's this app that will help them read better. Mm-hmm. And get them ahead in school. Mm-hmm. You know, above their peers. So I don't
Can you give me a specific observation that you've had, because I'm sure we've all had these observations, but what are the ones that kinda stick out to you?
Like, mine's at a restaurant,
restaurants. Yeah. And I will say we don't really, we don't go out to restaurants very often. No. Just because you have to bring so much stuff when it's two little kids, two little kids. Yeah. It's just not worth, they will cook at home. Um, and I like to cook, but yeah. Restaurants is definitely a huge one where when we have gone out, I notice Yeah.
They've got the headphones. Yeah. Or they don't and it's loud and you hear it.
Oh boy.
Um, and they're sitting at the table and nobody's talking to each other.
You seem nice. You said you, it doesn't come, you said, I don't wanna come across as judgy.
Yeah.
I,
because it's a re I mean, the older I sensitive get, I get.
Well, I might, I mean, I quietly get judgy.
Yes. I'm very judgy inside. Yeah,
yeah.
No,
but I feel like I understand it because I'm living this experience too. Mm-hmm. And I see the ease in which it can happen.
Mm-hmm.
But I know I didn't have that in my childhood, and I'm so glad that didn't exist, because I don't know how things would've turned out differently even for me.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I'm thinking more of like the addictive nature of it.
Yeah. I mean,
these are devices that are not designed for children.
Okay.
Why, you know, why do you think all like the tech executives, their kids don't have these? So I'm told, and I, I don't, I, I would imagine, I guess they don't have concrete proof, but I keep, you know, you see, I could see that being, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So you had these observations, you read the book? Yeah. Um, yeah, the Anxious Generation.
Huge.
And that was, that those two things all came together. Did you then find the overarching website, wait until eighth.org?
Not until recently. Okay. Honestly I feel like I had seen it on my own Instagram, yeah. Once you kind of click on the one thing, the algorithm knows what Yeah. It fills in the blanks for you. Which has helped because it's led me to some other accounts like the Let Grow. Okay. Um. You just these other experiences even that Jonathan Het talks about in his book and other Yeah.
Like Leor, I think it's s sc or Eskenazi just different voices kind of in this space. And so that was helpful. And then from that, suggested wait until eighth,
I tell you, there are fewer, more powerful things than like a mom bent on research. Yeah. You know, about their kids. Like, there's just no end to that cave.
Yeah. That, um, so what have you come to learn? What have you come to understand in this, it, it's, it's, um, it's gotta be a little bit painful, right? It's not like you're researching a family vacation. No. You know, it's, it's fueled in a FA little bit of fear, right? Yeah. Oh, totally. And, and steeped in these consequences that could be like life impacting Yeah.
For more than just your own kid, you know? Yeah. For society in general. Where do you, you know, where, where's your mind on it all today?
I think I sat in this unique space of. Being in a high school for so many years, and actually kind of at the beginning of when this smartphone thing took over, I started in the 2012 school year.
And that's when the book references, this is when we noticed a lot of changes with mental health and teens and things, kids and teens. I felt like sitting in this space of, I am looking at what is potentially down the road for my own children.
Mm-hmm.
And this looks kind of scary to me. Not that it's hopeless or anything like that.
Mm-hmm. But I don't, it doesn't have to be this way. It doesn't have to be every kid gets a cell phone. I think you, you talked to in, in the notes about the average age being 10. 10 years old.
Yeah.
That's a fifth grader. And when I think back to what I was doing in fifth grade, it, it wasn't anything related to technology.
Or at least nothing like the technology we have today. Right. You know, it might, I might have had a game boy. Yeah. Like Tetris or something. Yeah. So I guess I maybe should back up and say, I'm not anti-technology. I'm, I'm just tech light, or, or slower tech.
Okay.
Um, because I, I loved technology. Yeah.
And I was kind of the tech nerd person, like in our, in each school that I've worked in, being that person that
people could go to knows how to
do some stuff
they're like, no, Jordan can do it. She knows how. Yeah.
Yeah. Or I, you know, I'd sit there and try and figure it out until I could get it right.
That's it. And then it share it with someone else. A puzzle. Yeah. It is, it's a puzzle. And I liked that kind of stuff. Yeah. But I did that without having a smartphone or an iPad in childhood. Mm-hmm. And so I know, there's kind of this push of, well, you don't want them to be behind. You don't want them to not know this technology.
Okay.
But I was able to figure things out, not just me. Plenty of people have been able, been able to figure out technology without using a smartphone. A smartphone is so different because it's just the whole internet in your pocket. 24 7. Okay. And it's a slot machine too. Like that's
Yeah, I've heard that metaphor before.
Yeah. It's, and it's just that constant, the dopamine hit Yeah. Constantly. That, that's also, that's also there too. Yeah. So it's, it's a different type of technology. I'm not anti-technology. I'm just, the smartphone is a dangerous thing for a child to have because it's letting them get to things that they shouldn't and it's letting things that shouldn't get to them, get to them.
And so then that brings you to the website. Yeah. Wait till eighth.org. Yeah. And it is a pledge base, parent led, correct me if I'm wrong. Parent led. Yeah. Okay. And it, I, from the website, I, I went there, it says our story, wait till eighth. Can I play a little section on here? Sure. For the listeners, for you, and then get your feedback.
I've got oh, I don't know, a minute and 20 seconds. Yeah.
Okay.
Let's, let's listen to this little brief explanation and then it touches on a couple of the points that you've already touched on, but perhaps maybe we can go and expound on that a little bit more. Okay.
One former Googled employee says.
This is no accident. Indeed, it is by design. A handful of people at a handful of technology companies shaped how a billion people think and feel every day with the choices they make about these screens. I mean, it's exactly the kind of thing that a hacker like myself would come up with because you're exploiting a vulnerability in, in human psychology, and it's clearly working.
Today, wherever we go, we're inevitably surrounded by fellow citizens staring into their phones as we usually are too. We've all been there. We've seen the scrolling, the games, the videos, the texting, all of it, and simply put, a lot of children struggle to even put their devices down. Rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide among young people have risen dramatically In the last decade, worse mental health, increased behavior problems, decreased academic performance, and poorer sleep.
Now a new study shows it's getting worse. The company's researchers found that Instagram is harmful for a sizable percentage of them, most notably teenage girls. Smartphones invade nearly every aspect of our lives deemed decreased confidence, increased anxiety, increased depression, hard trouble sleeping.
This thing is a slop sheet. All that screen time impacts the physical structure of your kids' brains, as well as their emotional development and mental health.
Oh man, they really know how to make those trailers. Mm-hmm. I mean, there's that background. Like I was gonna
say, the music is,
it feels like the world's ending.
It does. But and, and I can't play the whole video 'cause at the end they do, of this 15 minute long video. There's segments in here that I might incorporate into the podcast. But they do balance out the video in the way of like, the traditional story arc is like, here's the problem. Mm-hmm. And then the rest of the video kind of gets into this is what we're doing about the problem.
And so that, that brings us to wait until eighth.org where you have groups of parents making pledges. Can you tell me a little bit more, like, is this, is this a physical pledge? Is there some sort of a, is it just being part of the group is your pledge or tell me what you think it should be.
So on the website, wait until eighth.org, you can sign up.
And a pledge becomes live or active when 10 families in the same grade level at the same school sign it. Okay. And then it will email you who those 10 families are. So you won't know until 10 families until that cap has signed up or more. Who has been part of it. And what I liked about it was, is that it is parent led and it, so it just felt, it felt like it was something that was possible to, to do.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and it's free. It's not something that Right. Like you're gonna get, you don't
have to pay and subscribe to this Yeah. Team,
You're not gonna get flooded with emails or like you are gonna do with it what you wanna do. Here's kind of a template and then go wild, okay. Do go, go as far into this as you want to.
Okay. And so they give examples of, um, like different towns, even their Facebook pages or, yeah. Um. Just, just a guide of if you wanna start a chapter, here's how you do that.
Okay.
And so I read through it and thought. I think I could do that.
Yeah.
Maybe a bold thought to have it's just one person, but then I looked and thought, well, did one person started this?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So not that I have any desire to get on that scale. You know, she's the kind of founder, right. She'd be speaking engagements and things like that. Right. That would make me incredibly uncomfortable. I wouldn't You don't wanna go to an
auditorium full of people and try and convince, motivate.
No,
That's not what I wanna do. But I like the idea of connecting other people.
Right.
And letting them know, like, I'm not the only one that feels this way about this. And this being, I don't want to give my kid a smartphone yet. And there's that kind of. Pressure, whether you want to give into it or not, when it feels like the whole school, all your friends, all your classmates have mm-hmm.
This device. Yeah. You don't want to be the only one.
Yeah. Yeah.
That narrative
is real. Is real. Yeah.
And I thought about that for my own kids. Like I'm willing to be, the family, the only one, but I knew already, like, we won't be because I think so many families feel like, I don't wanna have to, I don't wanna do this yet.
And if you know that someone else is also delaying, that helps. It makes it feel like it's possible.
So, so do you see this as like, oh man. I mean, there's generations of kids. We oftentimes think of the term generation as something that's applied to youth, but there's a generation of parents right now that are we're all one's kids.
And, and if we can generalize, you know, the term gener generation nearly comes like at the same route. If we can generalize that these people in there. Mid, early to mid 20, mid twenties, maybe even in the thirties. Yeah. And mid thirties, that 10 year bracket of people who are of that age, which I assume you're probably fitting in, that you're starting families.
I'm, I'm 40 next year. Okay. Yeah.
Okay. But when you had your kids Oh yeah, yeah. So inside of that Mid thirties. Mid thirties. So then you're now coming up into a world and seeing the world in a different way because you now have to protect two other smaller humans. Right, right. And that changes the way you see the world.
Yeah. So, is this, I see this as being something that is kind of a. Inspiring. Hugely inspiring hopefully to a lot of parents. Yeah. To make this impact on their kids because at some point in time they had these struggles themselves. Yeah. Right. How many of us have all struggled of being addicted to our phones?
Oh,
and I'm too embarrassed to admit what my screen time, you know, I have an iPhone. Yeah. What my screen time number is, because it's, yeah. It's too high.
So what what, beyond the promise mm-hmm. What could we do as parents?
I think it kind of ties back to what's in Jonathan Heights book is.
You know, he identifies that there's this move from a play-based childhood to a screen-based childhood and how we can go back, we can do a play-based childhood, but that means parents have to allow their kids to go
Yeah. And play. You need cooperation and, and you need a team.
Yeah. And get outside and do things on, on their own.
You know, I was talking with a friend recently about just my own childhood experience of play and what that looked like. Yeah. And it was outside and it was independent, and I was young. I was about my son's age when I was kind of just out there. Yeah. Now I lived on a cul-de-sac, so it wasn't a busy street of there wasn't a lot of traffic or things like that to worry about those kind of physical dangers.
Right. But I would go out and walk around and
Yeah.
You know, I didn't have a cell phone and I didn't have an air tag on me, you know? Yeah. Like mom and dad were like, all right, she's outside.
Let me play devil's advocate here if I could. Sure. 'cause I like to try to see the broader picture in this way of like, the world that we know it today in the state that it is, at least in America seems to me to be one in which they are more parents.
And even society is more inclined to want to protect kids from these physical harms. Absolutely. And there's a lot of narrative and discussion about dangers on the road, like you were mentioning, the cul-de-sac, distracted drivers and some of these,
these with cell phones. Yeah.
Yeah. With, and so how do you, how do you counter that argument?
Like, I'd love to be able to just say, Hey kids, I'll see you when those, when I was a kid. When you don't come home until the street lights come on. Yeah. And just go, I don't know that kids, I don't know if they should. I don't know if parents would let them these days just to be like, Hey, you're gone.
There's your bike. You got air in your tires, you got 10 bucks. Yeah. You know, go, go hit the gas station if you want something to drink and I'll see you at dinner. Yeah. Kinds of things. I think the counter narrative to that is that a lot of parents are worried and concerned about the safety of their kids being out in the world the way that it is today.
Totally valid. So they, they let them sit on the couch and they play their games and stuff like that. So
yeah. How
can, how can you have both?
I mean, just with anything balance I think is important. Yeah. I don't think there's anything wrong with a kid playing video games, but when you're replacing video games with going outside and getting fresh air for part of the day mm-hmm.
And you're just sitting there and staring, and, I mean, I don't even know if I wanna go into the content of the video games, but, um mm-hmm. If you're replacing outside play and adventure, also boredom I think there's not a lot of, a lot of
boredom.
Boredom. And that's a good thing. I mean, I know kids will complain.
I'm bored. I'm bored. Mm-hmm. But your brain does something different. Now don't ask me to like, cite research on this, but I, I have read your anecdotal experience
would say that when you get bored, something happens,
something happens in your brain. Yeah. That is a good thing. Yeah. Um, imagination is a good thing.
Yeah. Um, and I think those things are being robbed sometimes when you have a constant. Like thing that's, you are able to Yeah. I'm pointing to my hand a smartphone. Yeah. Or a device that's able to give you something that replaces those moments where it could be some type of imagination that you know, something that you wouldn't have thought of.
Yeah. And now you're just staring at a device or, so let's, let's point
fingers like, who's to blame?
Oh, man.
Yeah.
I think it's just a, it's a cycle. Okay. I think things get pushed and people feel, and marketing, you know, like Yeah. They have, it doesn't help. No, they have great marketing teams, obviously.
All these technology companies. Yeah. Silicon Valley companies. Yeah. I mean, there's tons and tons of money poured into this for a reason. I mean, and some of it's just cool, like, I'm guilty of that. Yeah. I remember getting my first iPod, not that an iPod is the same as an a smartphone, but like the technology's cool.
It's like, Hey, this is new and shiny and fun. I wanna try this out so I understand the appeal. I, I just think the consequences are so much bigger because these are young little moldable minds and when you take away something that they should be doing, going outside, exploring on their own and figuring things out and making mistakes mm-hmm.
And getting hurt. Like I've had to tell myself again and again you're gonna need to allow your kids to go out into the world and make mistakes and get left out. Mm-hmm. And cry and be sad. Like, I can't, I don't wanna take those, even if they're bad, I don't wanna take those painful experiences away from them.
Right. Because that's where growth comes from. Mm-hmm. And I just, I see that changing.
I think the hardest part or, or yeah. Perhaps I could even be so honest to say. The hardest part is that, it's so easy to, and alternatively, it's hard to have your kids inside all day. Yeah. Or no, it's hard to have your kids occupied all day.
I, how do I put that? Like, entertained, like, I know I'm not the sole person responsible for keeping my kids entertained, but when I've got other tasks and things that I've gotta do around the house, work already has some of it built into that home repair stuff, mowing the lawn, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, chores and those kinds of things.
And the kids are following me around. And in, in the small doses that it initially starts at, there's almost like a Pavlovian conditioning of like, wow, I was able to get so much stuff done. Mm-hmm. And the kids just sitting over there and they're not fighting. Yes. And I think, and they're quiet. I think that's the caution for me is that like, wow, where are the kids at?
They're quiet. I wonder what's going on. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The kids shouldn't be quiet. Right. Trouble happens
when they're quiet.
I think so, yeah. Something, something's happening and they're disengaged. They're, they're out of their, they're out of their mind. Like they're out of their space. Mm-hmm. I guess is they're not at home.
Yeah. They're sitting there on the couch, but they're not at home. Yeah. They're inside of the phone. Yeah. Inside of that little world, inside of the phone. And I think that's what throws caution for me is that when it's easy, it's not, I don't think it should be easy. I think we o oftentimes have a genetic condition to find things that are easy.
Mm-hmm. And to try and resist and push away things that are difficult and challenging. Yeah. That's not uncommon. But when it comes to these cell phones, I think that conditioning happens in such small little doses initially, and a little conditioning happens along the way, and then people get more and more enticed into like, well, this is just the easier way.
Yeah. So it's gonna be hard. Absolutely. I mean, if you have to, if you're gonna wait till eighth, what are, what would you see? What's the reward?
I'll start with. I recognize that I'm not, I have a soon to be kindergartner Yeah. In a few weeks. So I'm not really that close to the grade peer pressure part of it.
Yeah. And I think it really, they talk about, it starts around that second grade, third grade, Hey, so and so got a phone and then they got, yeah. So I'm not too far away from it. Right. But I, it's easier for me to say this right now because I have a 5-year-old. Right. And so I know there are people listening like, well, I've got a fourth grader right now, and all of their friends Yeah.
Have a phone. It's gotta
be so hard. And
Yeah. Because you're looking
at your kid and she's got tears in her eyes and, and she's like, they're, all of my friends are chatting. Mm-hmm. And I'm not in the chats. And then they all laugh about a joke, you know, when we're outside at recess and they're all laughing about it, but I don't know what they're laughing about because I wasn't That's gotta be so hard.
Yeah.
Yeah. But the pledge is part of the bandaid for that. Right, exactly. If you can, then, you know, as you're sitting there and if your daughter's lamenting and it's like, I'm not part of that group. A parent could say, you're part of this other group,
Hey, these, these other people, these other kids at your school.
They don't get 'em either.
Yeah.
And then hopefully that allows other parents to see like, well, okay, they're doing this right. I we can do this too.
Right.
And I think it's important, even if you have given your kid a phone and have decided I don't like what I'm seeing. Yeah. You know, we did this, we decided to get a smartphone, you can walk it back.
I recognize that. That's hard.
That's gotta be even harder.
Really hard. But there, there are par you know, there are stories that exist that are out there of parents who had an honest conversation and said, I made a choice before I was fully informed. Mm-hmm. And here's why we're doing this now. Wait until eighth also isn't no phone at all.
Mm-hmm. It's just the distinction is no smartphone. Mm-hmm. So I kind of like that, like the old school flip phones and things are making a comeback. Yeah, I do too. Um, maybe kids can learn, you know, T nine or whatever text. Oh, that old school oh yeah. 3, 3, 3, 3. So yeah.
Man, your fears would be so fast.
Yeah. Yeah. My kids have watches. Yeah. Like these Gizmo watches and
they're gizmo, I think bark. There's a whole list. My son has a bark phone on their website about so,
and, and all that to say though, that there's I think oftentimes perceived a on or off. Like they either have a phone or they don't have a phone, but there's really a grade, a scale here.
Yeah. I mean, they can start with these watches. Yes. They can move to a phone that's monitored by that company bark. And I'm sure there's other companies too.
Yeah. I think Gizmo was maybe another, I know Gizmo.
Verizon has Gizmo. Cellular has bark, yeah. And Bark is its own. Program operating software, but it's also has its own line of phones as well, which have all these like parenting parental controls and things like that.
I know iPhone has a lot of that as well. So all that to say that, I mean, you could be signed up as the pledge for wait till eighth and as close to eighth grade still adopt a cell phone. I would encourage parents to like, don't just start with the Pandora's Box lid wide open. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go ahead and put some parenting tools inside of ease in, in their hands.
Ease in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. What kinds of articles are you putting inside of that Facebook group? I imagine that this is a place where parents can go to because they're following the group that you've made. Yeah. They've made the pledge. Uh, what occasionally you're gonna be dropping articles and things like that to help encourage and motivate people to stay in, in this group.
Yeah. Yeah. I, I don't, I don't want, first of all I don't, I don't have the time to constantly be posting anyways. Yeah. But I know engagement is important and so it needs to be something that shows up in people's feeds. But I do want it to be something that encourages people to have actual, like face-to-face conversation conversations rather than just within the group.
It's a small group anyways, and so like
60, 64.
Yeah. Which is pretty cool 'cause it's not even been a full month. And so, right. And I hope with the start of the school year that can, yeah. That can grow even more.
I know you mentioned that you have some bigger loftier goals. Is this is a good time to talk about that.
Yeah. We're, we're uh, approaching quickly the start of the school year. Yeah. Where does this go for you?
I think I. A, a realistic goal. Yeah. At least for this first school year. Yeah. I would love to see at least one elementary school. It'd be really cool if it was all of them, but at least one elementary school have an active pledge, which means 10 families in the same grade level Yeah.
Have said yes, we're doing this
right.
Um, the cool thing about taking on like the chapter lead role is I will get from wait until eighth. Like these, I dunno if it's weekly or biweekly, these reports of how many pledges have signed up.
Okay.
And that's what I wanna share in the group is, Hey, Luddy Brown, you've got, you've got an active pledge or this is how many people have signed up and
Yeah.
And I know it can't just be me. Right. Um, I would love to. Then another piece of it is see a person at each school, either that ah, parent or, or a teacher, you know, so staff member that also helps champion this. So maybe it's through the PTO, right? I mean, that seems like a, a pretty good way to connect.
'cause those are people that care about what's going on in the school too, right. And work together with staff. That's something I wanna be a part of.
Yeah. Have you any, I mean, you still have your connections from when you were a counselor at Morton High School. Yeah. So are you gonna get, you gonna use some of those district wide connections and,
I hope so.
Yeah. I mean, I have sent an email. I don't, I mean, nothing has happened yet, but Yeah.
Wheels are turning. Yeah. Okay. I
feel like.
That's the direction I'd probably go with it too.
Yeah. Nothing but positive could come from it because I think it just connects people. Right.
Um, and that seems like all that's what you wanna do.
You wanna connect them underneath this idea of, Hey, let's protect the kids from this thing. Yeah. That people are drowning in.
Yeah.
Yeah. And it's still early. Sure. I mean, in, in the broader scope of what cell phones are doing to the developing mind mm-hmm. Let alone the adult mind, you know, um, the anxious generation touches on a lot of data and statistics, but we're still early in, in a lot of that.
And the other thing is that it's always changing. Yeah. You know, so the data is outdated, but you know what,
I don't even, I don't wanna wait for updated data. Like, that's you, you almost can't, you know, I, for just, for me personally, the data almost doesn't matter, right. 'cause I'm just, I'm seeing it in person Right.
Within our own, community and families like. The data to me doesn't matter. Yeah. If it came out, actually smartphones aren't terrible for you. I don't care. Like Right. I'm, I'm not doing it. Yeah. And I think just seeing kids playing Yeah. And having face-to-face conversations and being on the playground or out and about in town, not staring at a phone Yeah.
Is a win.
Those little hometown baseball diamonds are kind of, yeah. Growing weeds. 'cause kids just aren't out at the baseball diamond anymore. Playing pickup games of baseball.
Yeah.
I don't see, I don't see that anymore like I used to.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah. Kind of sad. What what do you do at home to monitor?
'cause I find sometimes my son is 14, so He is, he does have a phone. Yeah. He has a, he has a bark phone. And I'll tell you what, man. Managing, managing what he does on his phone. And being the it person for that stuff is like a part-time job. Oh, totally. It takes, it takes work. And sometimes I'm called out for my hypocrisy.
My, my wife and I were called out like, you know, Hey buddy, you've been on your phone every time I've seen you today. And you know, he is like, I'm doing Duolingo, or I'm, yeah. I'm looking at this. I'm trying to learn how to do that. And all, and I try to remind him like, all that's good, but we have to have moderation in it.
And most times that I've seen you today, you're just on your phone and then he's Right. And saying so you just sit on your phone. Yeah. You know, when you're done with your work or your job or that chore, then you sit down and you're on your phone. And so knowing that this is a struggle for parents to monitor it of themselves, it has to be more of a struggle for a parent to so if you're a parent out there and you're, you're on the verge of getting your kid a phone.
I'm here to testify and admit, like the struggle that I have in monitoring my own phone and my own practice and my own use of the phone, and that feeling of like, I got on my phone to do this and it should only take five minutes, but now I've been on my phone for 15 minutes. Yeah. And I've gone through that time portal and I don't even remember what I got on my phone for.
Mm-hmm. Um, it's even harder to do that monitoring through the extension of an of your kid and through an app on your phone. It's even more complicated and convoluted. It's almost like, uh, it's hard to bring it back. Mm-hmm. Put the toothpaste back in the tube. Yeah. You can, once you let it out, you can.
Yeah. Yeah. So, oh, do you have any strategies that you use to monitor your own. Uses at home so that you're not, you know, putting on this role modeling of being on tablets and devices and stuff.
I, we like meal times. We try to do, you know, there's no screen at meal time. It, I actually somewhat recently watched Ted talk of this, I forget the man's name.
Um, I'm pretty sure I put it in the Facebook group so I can go back and look for it.
Was it a TED Talk?
Yeah. Where he was talking about his daughter, said something to him about his, using his phone or something, and he realized in that moment what is more important than being with my kid right here in this moment.
Yeah. And I'm gonna, we tend to lose track of that, don't we?
Yeah. And I'm gonna make a point to when I am with my children, they're not gonna see me on a screen. They're not gonna see me using a device that lets them think. This is more important than what you're doing or what you wanna say to me.
How close have you gotten to buying your own, going back to a dumb phone or a flip phone or It's a light phone.
It's really hard.
I, I have thought about it, but
I've gotten pretty close.
The, the part that's toughest for me is I mean, I use it to take pictures and videos. Yeah. Camera. Probably, it's a way better camera than I've ever had. You give a company out there that
will make a phone with a good camera and lets me listen to music and also can help me use maps.
Well
use music Yeah.
And just get all that other stuff out there. I know. I'll pay for that. Yeah. Buy that phone. The
camera is, has, is hard. But I'm also an adult who has a, I hope, fully formed prefrontal cortex. Mm-hmm. And like I can understand limits and how to stop things. But it's hard for me too.
But yeah. Yeah. I have had thoughts of. Should I go to an old school flip phone
Yeah. And carry around a clunky camera,
but like, you know, my, my credit card is on my phone. Yeah. And all of these Yeah. Daily things built, you know, whatever. My, my access to the world car insurance. Yeah. All that stuff's.
I don't have paper, car insurance in my, I could, we could, but we don't have a printer. I could, we don't have a printer anymore. 'cause like, I'd go to the library to print it out.
Yeah.
So, you said you reached out to the schools or to the administration.
Yeah. I mean,
and you're hoping to get in front of a PTO maybe.
Yeah. I mean, I planned to join even before learning more about wait until eighth. I just wanted to get involved with the PTO. Yeah. Anyways, because I want to be involved in my kids' school.
Yeah.
And hopefully help where I can because
Okay.
Having been in the district and then obviously at the high school, like I, I know how much work the PTO puts into things.
Yeah. And how they improve. They carry a lot of weight schools. Yeah. Yeah. So I just thought that'd be neat to be part of.
So if, uh, somebody's listening to the podcast, they want to get involved, they want. At least observe to start and see what it is that you're doing. It's going to Facebook, it's typing in wait till eighth with what?
A hyphen and Morton. Mm-hmm. And then they're gonna find your group page.
Yeah.
They'll ask to be Yeah. Part of the group. They gotta fill out a couple of quick questions. And
I only did the, I'm not tracking, like, I'm not tracking any of the information that you put in the questions. I have not managed a Facebook group before.
Oh,
yeah. 'cause you'll get bots, they'll try to get into your group and so I
thought, I don't want somebody getting in that's not a real person. Mm-hmm. And then advertising for gutter cleaning or, you know, whatever. Yes, exactly. What happens. Yeah. I just, I don't, and I don't to manage that. There's that
nice parent that's been in that group asking if they come and clean our gutters.
Yeah.
But first they have to put in their credit card information. Yeah.
How convenient. What's your social security number? Convenient. Yeah. Okay. So there are questions, but that's, and it's only goes to me like I, it's just me. Yeah. It's just one person. Yeah. And so I'm not on it constantly in those first couple days, but I see
you have articles here, like our articles all supporting the argument of why.
People should be thinking very specifically about, holding off.
Yeah. I didn't want it to just be my voice. I mean, I obviously, I do have experience having worked with high schoolers and now in my current role, junior high and high school kids. But there are other voices out there too.
And here's more, here's more information.
How much do you see this narrative about cell phones being a, Hmm, what would I call that? Something negative, right? Something that's dragging these kids down. How much do you see that inside of your work? A detriment. That's maybe the general word that I'm looking for.
Yeah. It's,
it's really hard to have complete focus and attention. Yeah. On a task.
Oh man. I can't imagine teaching now.
No, and a teacher shouldn't have to police cell phones.
No.
You just can't, you're never going to win. You can be a fantastic teacher with a really engaging classroom and lesson.
You're not gonna be, you can't keep pace. The whole internet. You just can't. Yeah. And you can't stop your lesson constantly to stop, put your phone away. Stop. Put your phone away. Yeah.
How distracting is that? Super distracting the kids.
Which is why, maybe I'll go ahead and say I totally support the bell to bell cell phone bands.
Is that a, that's kind of a controversial thing, perhaps. Um, is this in
Martin schools?
It's not. Oh, so they have it where it's during instructional time. I don't remember the exact, like, wording of the policy. Yeah. But even that can, I think, be really hard to enforce. So there are districts across the country that are starting to adopt.
Bell to bell. This is beginning to end. Yeah. You, you cannot have your cell phone in your possession.
Oh.
Because here's the other thing to think about. Like with social interactions, you know, okay, you can't use it in the classroom. The second the bell rings and you're in the hallway, everyone's walking down the hall.
Yeah. Staring at the rectangle. Yeah. And like, what is that doing to Right. Social interactions. 'cause they've
just endured 45 minutes of not being on their phone. Right. And all better they're think, think about is like, oh, I wonder what happened. Yeah. What was on TikTok? I posted something 45 minutes ago. I wonder what replies are there.
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Bell to be, I don't think would be, it'd be pretty hard for kids It would to start, but, and this is again, one of those things where you can't put the toothpaste back in. Right. You know, for those schools that haven't had a policy, and most schools probably don't. 'cause they don't, and you can't predict this.
Probably very accurately from 15 years ago. Yeah. That this is where we would be. Yeah. And so now trying to put it back to square one where you're like, Hey man, you can't bring that gaming device with you to school, but it's possible we've gotta do school. It's almost like you gotta rip the bandaid off
You do.
Yeah. And there would, there's, there will absolutely be pushback. Yeah. And I understand the other side. I understand the argument. For letting kids have them.
The only argument I would understand would be safety.
Yes. And that's usually the one.
Yeah.
And I completely understand that. Yeah. But still at what cost?
Yeah. What's the other safety like, the safety against maybe like Yeah. Long term, something happening in the school, God forbid, but Yeah. Yeah. You're not keeping your kids safe from all that mental health risk and all of that.
Right.
Bullying and all that.
Yeah. And I, part of what I think about too is okay, every cell phone, smartphone that they have that has this camera Yeah.
That has constant access to record someone or take a picture that they weren't, that they didn't know happened. Oh, man. Or things in the bathroom.
Yeah.
You know, like that stuff. It does happen.
Yeah.
And I,
ugh,
It's just scary to think about to.
It's almost too big to try and monitor piece by piece.
It's, you have to just be like, throw it in the drawer. It's, that'd be, that's my solution with problems at home too. Like if I can't manage this piece by piece, then we're just gonna get rid of it. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I don't like poly pockets, you, you know, those little tiny toys. There's just so many parts and you can't keep 'em together.
I have
my entire childhood, unless there's like collect,
unless there's a corner where they stay, I would tell my daughter you can have them, but if they make their way into the hall or on the stairs, we got problems.
So when we, when you first showed up, you were telling me a little bit about millennial mom thoughts.
Yes. Because
I asked you if you had any experience with podcasting. Let's conclude with doing a little plug for your podcast.
Yeah, my good friend, uh, we used to work together at Morton. She's an English language arts teacher and now a professor, but Helen pka Jones, doctor Helen pka Jones.
Hi, Helen. Yeah, I didn't realize that she had been a student of yours. Yeah. That's pretty cool. We, we've been friends for several years now and she just became a mom. She's got a five month old. Okay. And I texted her last month and just said, have you ever done a podcast? She just kinda seemed like somebody who would know about a podcast had she, she goes, actually, yeah, I did one for a creative rating class during COVID.
And I said, great. I think I wanna do one. Like, she'd be
up to speed with technology for sure.
Yeah. Yeah. And she's just cool.
She's cool.
Um, and so I said I'm think, you know, I listen to podcasts and I thought, I think it would be a good. Challenge for me to take on, but I don't wanna just talk by myself.
Yeah, you gotta have two people.
I, I wanna have a dialogue and since we have both been in education and both our parents and are uh, you know, she's a younger millennial. I'm an older millennial, so even we have kind of different experiences growing up with technology ourselves. I thought there's something here.
Yeah.
And it's something we care about and if it's something that we care about, probably somebody else cares about it. Two. So quite literally last night we dropped our First episode? Yeah. Your first episode. Episode. Oh, right. Where can
they, where can they find it?
We're on all the things Apple.
All the things Apple, Spotify and Amazon. So millennial mom, millennial mom.
Thoughts. And that's recorded somewhere here. Local,
yeah. Each of our basements or Oh man. Our houses through, so now there's at least
like three or four or five podcasts just coming out of a little tiny town of Morton. And this has been, yeah, everybody gets their own podcasts.
Oprah's gonna come and start handing 'em out. Like everybody gets to have you get a podcast. You get a podcast. That's great. Yeah I'd like to see you reach out to Don Stern and see if you could continue to spread your message. I would, yeah. You know, he's, he works really closely with the admin there.
Yes. He would probably even have some ideas on how to help kind of spread your cause and your pledge and your message out to the schools.
Yeah. So I
reach out to Don. He's always super helpful. Well, he was,
he was copied on the email. Hope, no pressure. He was copied on the email, so,
yeah. Alright.
He's probably read it. Thank you so much for coming in. Mm-hmm. And I fully support and the pledge that you're, we actually did something similar, I want to say in sixth grade with just our son's class. Okay. 'cause that was about the time where people were Yeah. Your wife said kids were verging upon.
Yeah. Yeah. Like there started that narrative real really quickly. Yeah. It accelerated quickly. Like suddenly there were, it does, first there were no phones, and then suddenly like, oh my God, half the kids have phones. Yeah. And so we wanted to get to the rest of the parents and be like, Hey, we're gonna wait.
Yeah. And if you want to tell your kids we're waiting, we're cool with that. Just so we can all kind of have this little team mentality of like, let's wait as, as long as we can.
I don't think anyone regrets it. I don't think anyone looks back and says mm-hmm. I wish they could have had, had Instagram sooner.
Yeah.
You know? Yeah. You're not gonna remember swiping on Instagram, but you're gonna remember playing with your friends and laughing with your friends and that Yeah. That's hopefully what happens.
Right. Well, I wish you the best of luck, and I hope that you were able to spread this pledge out to all the elementary schools.
Yeah. Yeah. Inside of your first year. That'd be great. That'd be really, really cool. That'd be great.
Yeah.
Appreciate you coming in.
Thanks for having me. All right.
Hey, this is Ben. Thanks for listening to this episode of Morton Muon News. I'm excited to share more stories with you, but I need your help to keep the content growing and engaging.
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