Leveraging Leadership

How Chief of Staff Association Elevates Leadership and Organizational Alignment Globally

• Emily Sander • Season 1 • Episode 149

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Emily Sander interviews Trent Smyth and Jeremy Costa from the Chief of Staff Association, exploring the relationship between a Principal and Chief of Staff. They discuss the role of a Chief of Staff and the association's programs at Oxford and Harvard, emphasizing alignment and personal development. The episode also covers the association's global reach, including networking opportunities and its new military membership initiative.


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Who Am I?

If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want. 


Time Stamps:

02:40 The Genesis of the Chief of Staff Association
05:17 Defining the Chief of Staff Role
06:01 Challenges and Misunderstandings
13:35 Global Reach and Membership Diversity
17:05 Immersive Programs at Oxford and Harvard
22:15 Membership Benefits and Resources
26:28 Special Events and Conferences
30:40 Membership Process and Values

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

Trent, Jeremy, welcome. Thanks so much for being on.

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Emily, for having us. It's great to be here.

jeremy-costa_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Great to be here, Emily. Thank you.

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

We've got the CEO and former chief of staff of the chief of staff association. Uh, Jeremy, when Jeremy and I first got in touch, I joke with him that he was the chief of staff of chief of staffs. So he carries, he carried that mantle, which has now been passed on, but it's great to have you both on and looking forward to speaking with you. So many questions about the chief of staff association in my discussions from chiefs of staff. And I do my best to answer. Um, and I've spoken with several people who have gone through your programs, but, uh, I just thought it would be great to speak with you directly and get some of this content and information out to people so I can point them directly to the source. So thank you so much for taking the time. Can you just start with brief, Introductions and backgrounds of yourselves and how you got to chief of staff association.

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Yeah, thanks. Thanks very much, Emily. Um, so I've been, uh, involved with the Chief Staff Association since almost the very beginning, uh, more close enough to the very beginning. In the 10 years or so prior to joining the Chief Staff Association, I had a title, which was really interesting title called Secretary of the Consular Corps. This was a position in a diplomatic type position in Australia that put me in the center of, uh, 80 or 90 consulates and foreign, uh, foreign governments, as well as those institutions, such as the Australian government, the various state governments, um, institutions like the universities, um, the, the healthcare sector, uh, tourism and so on. And so very much as this sort of connector role between all these, uh, institutions. People would often come to me and say, can you introduce me to a minister or a senior deputy secretary or so on and so forth, and my usual response was, let me introduce you to the chief of staff, because I and you and many of the listeners now know that that's a very senior role, but going back four or five years, often when I would say that people would say, Oh, I'm not sure that's the Chief of Staff, but I really want to speak to somebody senior. this was happening so often, um, that we sort of realized that there's, uh, something of a misunderstanding of what this role is, this very, very important role of a Chief of Staff. Um, and that really was the kernel of the idea, uh, that led to what you see today, which is the fully fledged Chief of Staff Association. We can talk about that a little more, but that was really uh, the genesis of how it came to be.

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

Wow. Okay. I didn't know that, that you were involved with counselors and deputies in Australian government. Um, Jeremy, you, you talk funny as well. So kind of give us your background and where you came from.

jeremy-costa_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Yes. Two Australians. Um, uh, on the call today. Uh, yeah. So I, I joined in early 2021, um, which was about a really interesting time because, um, obviously COVID had happened. And I know that that had. shifted the way that Trent, um, uh, and the other early directors were thinking about, um, the future of the chief of staff association. And I think we can talk a bit about how that evolved and that transformed, um, later on, I think for the better perhaps. Um, and I had, uh, recently kind of completed a master's, uh, of international relations. So, um, was always kind of had a bit of a generalist skillset and also interest in the world. I was interested in business, but also international affairs. Um, had worked for, um, some like foreign policy and international affairs, think tanks in Canberra and Melbourne. Um, and so, uh, like many chiefs of staff, it wasn't a, um, a clear pathway into the role. I never thought that I would be a chief of staff or anything like that. Um, it, it kind of found me as corny as that is. Um, and so Trent and I met Trent, uh, in a cafe in Melbourne. Um, and he, he started talking to me about the chief of staff association and the idea, um, uh, of, of, uh, this incredible sort of influential role that was, um, understated and not being given the representation, um, that it deserved. And, um, from that day on, uh, I sort of became fully involved in, in, in getting it to a point, uh, uh, where it was a, we had a product and we had a team and we had a, uh, uh, something to, to give back to the chief of staff community, uh, all the way to the incredible sort of network and association that we've built today. So it's been, um, yeah, very rewarding journey. And, um, I'm super grateful for. Uh, for Trenton for, for, um, for giving me the chance to be part of it.

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

So it sounds like in true chief of staff fashion, you took a vision and you executed and brought it into reality. So that's, uh, that's a part and parcel for chief of staff. And. One of the things I like about Chief of Staff Association is it helps people understand what the Chief of Staff role is. Hopefully most people know there is such thing as a Chief of Staff. Sometimes you have to, you know, breach that as well, but it's more so, okay, I've heard of this, like, what is this? And to Trent's point earlier, you know, this is such an influential and important and senior role and helping people understand what that is, um, and how to, how to do it. position that role effectively in your organization.

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Yeah.

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

just getting that out there, but it feels like that's was part of the mission of Chief of Staff Association. But you tell me at the very beginning days, what was, what was the goal for getting this thing up and running?

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

you are absolutely correct in, insofar as and I think if you think about it, it's very difficult for something to be to to be powerful. That's very hard to define. Uh, oftentimes we talk about, you know, you're halfway to solving a problem if you can define the question properly. Um, so too, when you think about the chief of staff role, when you are constantly explaining what the role is to somebody, you're losing so much capacity to be effective and so on. So. This was really a profession and a career that was spending so much time explaining itself, uh, and sometimes not even particularly well, because even then when you try and explain it, we have many members that explain to their own family what they do and they say, I still don't understand what you do. And so it really is a role that, that, that is a nuanced role. It's difficult to explain. So we, uh, we work hard, we work tirelessly. To try and bring some structure to a profession where there was no structure or very, very little structure, except for, of course, and people will be putting in the chat now. What about the military? Of course, in the military and in government, in politics, the chief of staff role has been a more well trodden path. But in the corporate sector, not for profit sector and so on and so forth, which now make up a very, very large percentage of our membership. The role has been, um, I wouldn't say new, uh, but certainly more popularized, uh, most recently. So it was, uh, big challenge for us to come out and help bring some of that definition to the role so that it became a lot more powerful and, and, and you didn't have to spend so much time trying to explain, uh, yourself, not just to external people, but But also internally. So the

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

Oh yeah.

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

of a Chief of Staff, as you well know, is, is the internal conversation that you're having with other teams, um, the board, uh, and so on and so forth, other C suite executives. So, you know, everybody benefits when people understand the role a little bit better. Um, I think in some ways we're probably about 15 years ahead of corporate affairs professionals, who themselves 15 or so years ago were sort of the new kid on the block and explaining themselves and so on. And then, um, Corporate Affairs Academy, which was developed at Oxford University, uh, with Professor, uh, with, um, Rupert Younger, um, went a long way to starting to bring, uh, definition and structure to that profession. And I think in many respects, we've, um, taken cues from the success that they have had. Um, and it's no surprise that in our first, uh, structured program was in fact developed with Oxford University. We can talk about that more later on.

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

Yes. I definitely want to get into that. But first, how would you define a chief of staff or how do you help people define their roles as chiefs of staff?

jeremy-costa_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Um, I'm happy to go first, Trent. Um, probably the first thing that, that, that I would say is a lot of people come to me and say, uh, you know, we really need a, like a job description, um, that is, you know, the exact same for everyone so that we really understand when we're going between roles and, and, uh, Anushka Healy, um, who is a great, a great friend of the chief of staff association. Um, And a senior executive at News Corp and a former chief of staff herself once said to me that actually the superpower of a chief of staff is not having a job description because it allows them to go places where nobody else can. It allows them to be agile. It allows them to adapt their role to the needs of the organization and to the needs of the community. that, you know, their principal. Um, but broadly speaking, you know, you are the right handed senior advisor, um, to a senior leader in an organization. And your job is to help them become more impactful and influential and achieve their strategic goals. And a lot of the way, oftentimes the way they do that is by creating alignment. Um, and so I think that alignment is something that I always talk about that seems to be, um, uh, that seems to sit across every chief of staff role. Um, they're trying to create alignment for the purpose of achieving, um, the principles, but more broadly their organizations, organizations role. So, um, while I think that definition holds, I'm more careful to say that we need to have really, really strict definitions because, um, I think that doesn't take into account the need for flexibility in the chief of staff role to be impactful.

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

Yeah, I love what you said. Go ahead, Trent.

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Oh, yeah, you knew I was about to say something too. I

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

Yes.

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

question though, Emily, too, because we're going to give you different answers as well. And that's the point. I think that's so interesting that we work together literally every day, and yet we will give a slightly different answer. We're in agreement, by the way, give a slightly different answer. way I would answer the question is, is when you think about what is a Chief of Staff, for me, it's less about what does a Chief of Staff do? And a lot more about what does a chief of staff need to be, right? So it's, it's less about the function and it's more about the individual. And so a chief of staff, what do they need to be? They need to be a strategic advisor. They need to be, uh, they need to be a friend. They need to be a colleague. They need to be a supporter. It's the things that you need to be that are more to me helpful in defining what a chief of staff is than what they do. And that really speaks, um, true to our membership. So our membership is across such a variety of sectors. Let's just start with sectors, let alone geographies and other bits and pieces, um, but sectors alone. So we have members in healthcare and in higher education, the military, government, large business, small business, not for profits and, Yeah, pretty much everything and if you took five or six different members of the Chief Staff Association and ask them to explain their day to day, all would tell a slightly different story. They operate in a different theater, right? So they're all doing the different things, particularly the military. They're doing a very, very specific role. And then, you know, Business and so on and so forth. But what you will find is if you distill down, who they are as a person, now you start to find some similarities. Then you start to find that actually these people are not as different as their job descriptions may appear. And so that's what we tend to focus on. We, we really try and understand who you need to be. Not so much what you need to do. And I think that helps us try and define the role.

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

This is music to my ears because versus the conversations I have out in the world, it's like, Oh, Chief of Staff, that's an executive assistant, right? that's just, that's painful to me, um, every time. But thank you for sharing your thoughts on that. I'm in complete agreement. And I appreciate it. played soccer or football and I was, I played sweeper, which is like a very flexible role. You kind of go where the team needs you. And so that, that analogy works for me and for people who play sports, but I think it is flexible. I always, I always talk about, um, you know, in a, in the U S at least we have like these six pant, six Pat cans of soda or beer and then the plastic thing that sits on top. And I equate the chief of

jeremy-costa_1_01-16-2025_160732:

I

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

that holds all the cans, all the executives together and makes them in the right direction. But,

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

like

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

um, Jeremy, like I love alignment and to me, I talked about alignment in my chief of staff role. And when I spoke to my principal and to our executive team and to our larger company, it was, I want you to know what to do next. Like, I want you to be clear about when you have a decision day to day on the fly, you're clear about what your team is trying to achieve and how that rolls up to the larger company. And so that was, that was. Part of my job as chief of staff is getting that infrastructure and communication channel in place. Um, but thank you both for, for that explanation. So Trent, you've alluded to this a few times, but you do have a pretty, a pretty widespread and, um, Varied representation of chiefs of staff, uh, members, chief of staff association. So not just corporate, not just military, it's across the board. And this is really worldwide. Is that fair to say? And literally every region, major region.

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Yeah. Except Antarctica. We're working

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

Sure. Okay. Not a lot of chiefs of staff there.

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

this is probably one or two, but, um, yeah, you're absolutely right. It's, it's, it's not a lot. Um, but we are in, uh, statistically, we are in, uh, 71 countries. Um, although we have applications at the moment that I can see in our pipeline that would bring that number to 73. Um, so call it 71, 72 countries at the moment. Um, and, and of course, many of the countries that you might expect. that have large populations of Chiefs of Staff, of course, um, United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and some of those obvious countries. But what's really exciting is some of the, some of the smaller countries, some of the, some of the countries that you might not expect, um, that have Chiefs of Staff. And in some cases we have a Chief of Staff in countries where we know that's the only member that we have in any one particular country. And it's really exciting for us and the team get really excited when we say we've got a new member in. Nepal or Swaziland or somewhere like that, we, you know, if we had a bell, we would ring it. I think it's really cool that we have that, that diversity, um, both geographically and sectorially, as we spoke before, because that's when you get a really rich conversation. You know, there are lots of professional associations out there, and they all do incredibly great work, um, who may focus on, for example, Silicon Valley and the tech sector, or, you know, chiefs of staff in AI, and they're there to, um, to deliver a service, and good point. Good, you know, good luck for them. But what we find, I think, that one of our sweet spots is that, you know, when you come to our programs, or when you participate in our online forums, that you have the ability to share your experiences and learn from people literally across the world in, in different countries, but also in different organizations and different backgrounds. And I think it is that variety of Um, that makes the conversation so rich and many of our members have commented, uh, when they've come into our programs, I didn't think I would have as much in common as I do with this, you know, marine, uh, all of this, uh, all this person in the not profit sector and whatnot. So, um, I, I think it's incumbent upon us to make sure that there is a diversity, uh, in every respect, uh, to our membership. Uh, and it, and it certainly is. So, um, that way at the moment, uh, in, in, in. Almost every corner of the, of the, of the globe.

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

And some of the feedback that I get, I speak, I've heard from dozens at this point, dozens and dozens of people. And the two things they highlight having gone through your programs are the fact that it's immersive one, because Oxford, Harvard, some of these programs, you go there and you're immersed in this for days upon days. And two, there's a cohort that they are part of, and they, a deep connection to those people that will last years and years and years down the line So those are like the two kind of repeat things I hear but maybe You can touch on some of the hallmark programs that you have.

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Uh, Jez, why don't you, um, talk about that immersiveness and I can talk about maybe the differences between Oxford and Harvard.

jeremy-costa_1_01-16-2025_160732:

think, um, Emily, you're spot on, I think, and I think the immersiveness and the ability to be in person alongside peers who understand your role is uniquely special for chiefs of staff because one, typically, obviously, that's changing now, but typically they're the only chief of staff in their organization, so they don't really feel like they have peers. So,

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

Yes

jeremy-costa_1_01-16-2025_160732:

like, if you ask Trent or I, the number one thing that the chiefs of staff tell us, it's that there is quite a lonely role. Um, and it is a lonely role. And so, um, part of what we're trying to do is, is provide them with a forum and a space, um, to have conversations, um, about the uniqueness of the role, because it is a unique role, I think. Um, so in terms of the, the structures of the program, so Oxford College. Both of them are four days in person on campus, um, led by the business school faculty. So the incredible team at SAIT business school in Oxford and Harvard business school, um, and it's purpose designed, um, with us, um, by, uh, our program directors for chiefs of staff. Um, and so, uh, the focus of Trent, you're gonna speak about the focus. So let me leave that to you. But, um, really the idea is that they get really rich. academic and practitioner led sessions during the day. Um, and then plenty of opportunity outside of those programs to build their network and their connection. So, um, at Oxford into in particular, we run some incredible dinners, um, at Oxford colleges and, um, Oxford's not short of incredible venues for, for beautiful, uh, places to have dinner together. So, um, those, Those experiences are just as important as what they learned in the academic sessions, and Trent will agree with that. And anyone who's been there will agree that, um, the connections that they make, um, are just as important as, um, the learnings and the takeaways they get from the academic sessions led by, you know, the very best professors and practitioners in the world. Um, so that's really important for us across both programs. Um, but Trent, I'll throw to you perhaps to talk a bit about the difference between the two.

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Yeah. Um, and just to add to your point there, the relationships that you build at the Oxford program and the Harvard program, uh, run deep because Emily, these are tough programs. They're not designed to be easy. They're designed to be enjoyable and fun, but they're tough. I mean, people get tired. Um, and people tell us, you know, you're pushing us really hard. And we say, yes, we are. Um, but I think that adds to your experience and that's what binds people. And so I think it's worthwhile noting that, that, that, that a great part of what we do there is we push people, um, and they excel and they come together in a really, uh, wonderful way. Um, the programs are slightly different. Um, of course, um, Oxford is in the UK and Harvard, uh, being over there in Boston. Um, but so too, the academic focus is slightly different. Um, Oxford University is really taking an organizational, structural level look at the chief of staff role, you are in the organization and how you manage the alignment between all the moving parts of your organization and also your stakeholders. Where does your organization fit in your industry? Where does your organization fit in your country, in the globe, in the, in the, in the bigger ecosystem? So it's very much about understanding alignment and. The professor that leads that program, Professor Jonathan Trevor, uh, is what probably the world's foremost expert on corporate alignment. Uh, and so really, it's a wonderful opportunity to, to excel your position there and understand as a Chief of Staff, um, you know, how and what responsibilities I have to create that alignment. As a matter of fact, Jonathan liked to joke that he thinks a better use of the, a better term would be Chief Alignment Officer. Rather than chief of staff and we'll leave that to him. I think he's probably on the right track there in so far as the purpose behind his comments there. Harvin on the other hand, um, tends to focus more on you as an individual. So Emily, how do you show up at work in the morning? Uh, how do you bring your powers of persuasion, of diplomacy, of negotiation, of moderation, uh, your EQ and so on and so forth. So how, how do you show up as a leader? How do you show up as a chief of staff and what that means in, in you work with your teams and so on and so forth. Now, that's not to say that at Harvard, we also don't cover, you know, world affairs and other things that are happening. You do, and there's some crossover, but by and large, You know, one is a macro environment, org level, um, focus, now one is more you as an individual. And then of course, and this is not a sales pitch, but of course you put them together, and that's like the ying and the yang, because then you've got the macro and the micro. So that's how they tend to work, uh, well together, which is precisely why, um, most of our members, uh, will go to both programs, um, eventually. Some really passionate people do it In the same year, and I mean really passionate,

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

Oh, wow

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

you literally, uh, like we do, you sometimes get on a plane and two weeks later, you see them all again at the next uni, um, uh, but you don't have to do them back to back, of course, but some do.

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

Wow, okay. Very good. Where do these Hallmark programs or signature programs fit into your overall membership? Is it, is it, um, is it the only thing you can do or is there other resources available to people? What does membership look like in general?

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Yeah, Jeremy, do you want to grab that?

jeremy-costa_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Yeah, yeah, sure. Um, Emily, probably the best way to describe it. I try to sort of describe it. There's kind of three buckets of areas where, um, uh, you can make the most of your membership at the CSA. So, um, there's the formal education programs that we do. Obviously the executive education programs are part of that. You must be a member to attend, um, one of those. Um, and we have an incredible online program called the core competency program, um, as well. And so, um, Unlike the Harvard and Oxford programs, which are designed to turn up four days, super intense. Um, the core competency program is kind of the opposite. It's designed for extremely busy chiefs of staff who we know do not have much time. Um, and so that's made up of 10 modules. Um, uh, uh, and the modules have really been carefully Um, curated and designed from feedback. Thousands of chiefs of staff telling us what they feel of the core skills that they need to perform in the role. Um, and they're delivered asynchronously, um, in a learning management system. Um, so, uh, basically there's three or four hours of content that they do, um, throughout each month. Um, and they can progress through that, uh, month per month during their membership. Each of those three programs lead to professional certification. And that's one of the really, really important hallmarks of the Chief of Staff Association that we've tried to establish early on. Um, and to your point, Emily, about, you know, professionalizing the Chief of Staff role and taking what Trent described as kind of an unstructured profession, trying to, um, create I feel like it was a, uh, a position and a profession rather than just, you know, an ad hoc role that some companies decided to implement. We really felt like establishing industry standards for skills and experience, um, and providing that certified chief of staff credential was really, really important. So, um, yeah, members of the chief of staff association who complete those programs, um, earn that credential. And it goes a long way into just. We know that they're capable already, but it provides the industry with some validation that, hey, I'm a capable chief of staff. And I know that I know that to be a chief of staff, it requires a certain skill set. Um, and so those formal programs are really a core part of the membership experience. Um, some of the really other cool things that we do is, um, you know, Broadly, as part of the professional development curriculum, we have a mentorship series, which is really exciting, led by, um, Mike Jernigan, who's a former chief of staff in the Marine Corps. Um, and that's a really, really great opportunity to be put, um, with a small peer group and a senior chief of staff. You spend four months with, um, meeting regularly, uh, to talk about the chief of staff role, um, and creating those micro networks of people, um, and getting that really candid advice in real time. Um, about the challenges that you're facing in your role. So that's another benefit that people love to take advantage of, um, alongside some fantastic sort of keynote presentation and webinars and workshops that we have. Um, so there's probably four or five different events that you can take advantage of, um, uh, all in one day. Um, and probably the very last point, uh, and Trent might have something to add, which I've no doubt missed is, is really the network and the community, which is a big focus. Um, One of the really exciting initiatives we've recently launched is regional communities. Um, and so we have around 16 regional communities around the world now, each led by a capable regional director and member of the CSA. And that provides you with basically Another micro network with which to ask real time challenges, have town halls speak about, um, geographic and sort of industry specific, um, uh, topics and advice that you're looking from, uh, from your core group. Um, and obviously to facilitate some in person interaction as, as well. Um, and so that, that, that's really, it gives you an idea of the sort of variety of the offerings that are available. Um, but Trent, please feel free to fill in the gaps where I've missed anything.

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Well, no, Jeremy, um, very good, and I know you're not reading from notes, so, uh, well done to recount all of that, and, um, you know, if you've missed anything, it's only because there's Quite a lot in there. Um, the only other thing that, but I think we're probably going to come to it later on, is some of those, um, if you like special events that we do, such as our program in Seattle, uh, that's coming up. We've got, um, we've got another one in Milan. Um, so Emily, at your cue, I can talk about those sort of extracurricular events as well.

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

Please. Yeah, please. Your conferences.

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

So, um, I'll start with, uh, next month, uh, in, um, Milan on the, uh, 18th of February. We have a Chief of Staff, um, sort of mini summit. Um, it's, uh, for anybody who wants to attend, any of our members or any invited guests as well, uh, to come to that. And really that, that's it. Particular conversation there is co hosted with Deloitte, who we do a lot of great work with at Deloitte HQ in Milan. And that's really talking about and exploring the evolution of the role of the Chief of Staff, particularly in Italy and in Europe as well. Um, the Chief of Staff Association, Deloitte and Stabocconi, the University of Milan, the Business School, um, co authored a wonderful research paper, a white paper, uh, on the evolution of the role. And it's fascinating. for having me. Particularly, uh, when we see the differences between the evolution of the role in, say, a place like the United States, um,

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

Yeah.

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

in Europe and in particular Italy, the, the, the differences are wonderful. The nuances are there as well as, um, just almost different story, but they are converging. So the conversation in Milan around that, the Chief Staff Mini Summit, that actually mirrors a similar mini summit that we did in Berlin last year as well. So have these mini summits at different locations and they're absolutely worthwhile coming to. They're normally a day or half a day programs, that kind of thing, and involve an equal amount of networking opportunity as well as sort of content provision. a larger scale. Uh, our, our, our kind of flagship conference is our cos uh, program, uh, closed 24 last year, of course in Seattle, uh, at Microsoft HQ CO 25. Uh, this coming April at Microsoft HQ in Seattle is a fantastic program. It's two full days of programming plus, uh, an arrival, uh, reception to start to meet people. Um, second, third, and 4th of April again. Um. Not a sales pitch, but it is open to members and non members as well. We love to, uh, as I said earlier, we love a broad conversation. So we don't restrict it entirely to members. So non members are welcome to join us. We'd love to, to welcome people. That's a conversation that's, uh, uh, uh, partnered with, between the Chief Staff Association and Microsoft. So understandably, there's a fair bit of, uh, AI and tech content to, that's discussed there. But it's not all, um, we also this year have streams, uh, talking about financial services, um, public, uh, health, um, health care and also government. So there are, uh, sort of vertical conversations happening there as well. It's an incredible program. We're expecting around 250 chiefs of staff to come to that program and, you know, to answer the question, you know, you know, what level of chief of staff do you get? Is it a senior level of chief of staff? Is it a junior level? There's a lot of self selection bias in that, insofar as if you are going to take days out of the office to go to Seattle to attend a conference, it's people at the very least who I can say are dedicated to their career, typically more senior people, and that's a wonderful opportunity to come and meet other people, like minded chiefs of staff, really dive deep I wouldn't say turn your phone off, but, you know, get focused on your career, uh, and also pick up the absolute latest, uh, in thinking and technology and so on and so forth. And so we're delighted with our partners, such as Deloitte, such as Microsoft, who help us deliver this content. We don't deliver it on our own. Uh, we couldn't deliver it on our own. And so we rely on the expertise of such incredible, uh, partners as they are. So, um, if, if, if members or, uh, if any of your listeners are interested in coming, we'd love to welcome people to those conferences as well.

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

And in terms of the membership process, what is, what does that look like? And what do you of your members or what should the expectation be for a prospective member once they become part of the chief of staff association?

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Excellent questions. Jeremy, I'm going to let you take the first bit of that question. Then I might explain, um, the way we do the interview process. You can, you can perhaps take the question first though.

jeremy-costa_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Yeah, I mean, I think in terms of maybe if Trent's going to talk about the mechanics of the process, um, for me, some of the principles and the values of what are really important. So, anyone you ask at the Chief of Staff Association, um, will know that our, our core value is authenticity. Um, and so authenticity is something that's really important to us and what we're trying to create is not a, uh, a global network made up of every chief of staff in the world, um, but a highly curated, um, uh, Networking community of people who, who, yes, they want to want to get better and they want to take from the incredible offerings and the experience of other members. Um, but they also want to give back, um, uh, to other members and to the profession. Um, and that's what I think makes what we've built so special because we have some absolutely incredible advocates who do so much for the chief of staff profession and see this as like, you know, one of their life You know, goals is to help promote the chief of staff role. And I really put that down to a lot of the work we did early on in getting the right people as founding members and really trying to set the standard for, you know, we're not just trying to get every chief of staff here. We're trying to build something special and we're trying to, um, Create a profession here, and that's going to take dedicated people spreading the word. Um, and we're, we're, yeah, we have some absolutely incredible members who we could name, but we won't because if we did, if we pick one, it would be unfair to the many others, um, who have done so much for us and are incredibly busy people in some of the most senior roles in the world who give us so much time. And I really put that down to the process and to the values that we've, that we've created. Um, but Trent, um, over to you.

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Um, thanks, Jeremy. It's, it's a. It goes back as well to what we talked about early on, Emily, um, it's not so much what you do as it is who you are. So, um, as Jeremy mentioned, we've got some very, very senior, senior chiefs of staff. We've got some aspiring chiefs of staff as well, um, who, who, different levels of their career, different sort of stages of their career. What, though, binds all of our members together? And I'm going to borrow from a great member of ours who recently said this. She said the characteristics. I thought this summed it up so beautifully. The characteristics that they look for in new staff members is exactly the characteristics we look for in members. And that is, uh, People who are kind, curious, and brave. so that speaks right to the person, not what you do. It's rather who you are. Um, that's how we like to think about it. Um, in terms of the practicalities of it, and, and people listening may want to know how you join. So, to the website, fill out an application form. That puts you, um, On a list what we will simply do is have a quick look at your reasoning for wanting to join you, answer a couple of questions as to why you want to join the Chief of Staff Association. biggest, um, not the biggest, a very large investment of our time is interviewing. In person, as in via Zoom or VC, every single applicant who wants to join the Chief Staff Association, every single person gets the time. Um, it's important to do that. It's important because we want to make sure that people understand what they're getting into, that they understand what we're about, that, you know, We put the network, we put authenticity front and center, education closely following there behind, but we really do put the network and the authenticity front and center. it also gives us an opportunity as well to try and understand who our members are, because what's most important for us is the connection. Will our members respond to a request or a call when they're called upon from another member? is the. although I've said it now, this is really the unsaid magic of the Chief of Staff Association. and we talk about it a lot. It's that idea that, um, you're a part of a family, part of a network, part of a community, whom you can have a fairly, um, practical conversation with about work related matters, about opportunities commercially, and so on and so forth. But there are also going to be times when things get really personal, when things get really, uh, sensitive, when things become Another level of importance. And that's when the network really kicks in. And so what we find among our, uh, our members that that really embraced the Chief of Staff Association. It's because they've discovered that there's this whole other current, uh, of connection that's going on between the members. And guess what? That happened because in the very first interview we set that out. We let people know that you are joining a special community. Um, so the process takes a little bit longer perhaps than, um, that, that people might expect. It's not a long time, but probably from the of making an application to getting an interview. It's probably about days or thereabouts, um, and then provided, uh, you know, you like what you hear, uh, and vice versa, then the process of onboarding is probably another 10 days. So within a month, uh, you know, members who want to join are normally in. That said, we do open, um, cohorts, uh, and close. for processing. So a bit like a university, you open while the, well, you, you make your application when the application window is open and then we close the process on board and then reopen it again. Um, and so in a sense we're sort of smoothing demand a little bit across, uh, across the, uh,

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

Okay. Thank you for that. As we wind down here, you've talked about some of the fantastic upcoming events and things that you're doing now. Is there anything new coming up that you are able and willing to share that you're excited about for this next, this next upcoming year?

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

yes. Um, you might want to take that one and then I'll follow in if I, uh,

jeremy-costa_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Yeah, um, I think something that we've already started, but looking to scale, uh, that we're really, really excited about is our enterprise certification program. Um, so late last year, um, we finished creating and on boarded our first, um, partners in our enterprise certification program. Um, and the idea behind this is there are lots of, which is very exciting, um, organizations now which are hiring chiefs of staff. For all of their VPs and all of their C suite, um, uh, which is a fantastic thing, um, by the way, uh, that we, that we wholeheartedly endorse, um, and so instead of all of them individually joining the CSA, um, we, we decided, hey, there's real value for the organizations and bringing together these chiefs of staff and putting them through a custom, you know, three month program with an expert facilitator, um, uh, to build, yes, the skills, but um, Just as importantly, and this is a thread, the connection, um, uh, that they need to have to be able to facilitate decision making within their organization. Um, and so Microsoft, uh, put through a fantastic cohort or two cohorts late last year of their chiefs of staff, Um, and yeah, what we've said, well, you know, They come for the education and for the skills and the learning and the facilitation is amazing. But, um, the things that they can now do that they all know each other across the world and across the organization, um, that they're supporting their most senior leaders, the most important people. And now they know each other at a personal level and went through something together. Um, uh, has a massive impact on on on the organization. So, um, we're really excited to work more. With organizations who are championing the chief of staff role and, uh, looking to invest, um, time, uh, and training into their chiefs of staff. And it can become a real superpower. And so we're really excited about rolling that out and expanding, expanding that, uh, further in 2025.

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

I can add one more for you, Emily. So now you're not going to let me off the hook if I don't, um, a big part of what the Chief Staff Association about is also having impact, um, putting back into the community as well, um, with that in mind, just in the last couple of days, for those folks who follow us on LinkedIn, they would have seen that we've launched a military membership, uh, as well as military scholarships as well. Um, these are open to serving military. And the reason this is important, of course, um, is because, um, it's important to bridge the gap between chiefs of staff, particularly chiefs of staff in the military and then the commercial sector as well. Um, We all know you included would have met many, uh, incredibly well qualified chiefs of staff, uh, who are leaving the military at a, you know, at the right young age of 55 or 60. They're just beginning this incredible career, but then moving into the commercial sector can be tricky, um, because they've, they've got a particular type resume, CV, uh, and experiences and so on and so forth. And we know these are incredibly highly trained, uh, incredibly competent, uh, chiefs of staff. So we're. We've developed military programs specific, um, to help transition, help those people transition from the military, uh, into the corporate sector as well and other programs like that. We're always excited about, um, pushing ourselves, um, but having impact and being able to give back in that way is very, very important for the Chief Staff Association. So that is something that's brand new, cutting edge, uh, and, uh, literally we posted about it yesterday.

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

Wow, very cool. My last question for you both is if you were to leave the listener with something, maybe from your programs or from association or maybe from your own personal experience as a principal, as a chief of staff, what would you want people to know or take away? Or what would be just some sage wisdom from a principal and chief of staff yourselves

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Jeremy, why don't you go first? Uh, or if you want me to go first, I can. I was going to give you the last word, but,

jeremy-costa_1_01-16-2025_160732:

I'll give you the last word, Trent. It's only right. Any good,

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

fight over

jeremy-costa_1_01-16-2025_160732:

good chief of staff would let the CEO, uh, No,

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

now I feel like I should go.

jeremy-costa_1_01-16-2025_160732:

it's fine. It's fine. Um, I think being a chief of staff can be lonely and it can be incredibly challenging, but it doesn't have to be. Um, and what I would say to any chief of staff is you're not alone. Um, and, um, What you're going through. I promise you other people have been through even if it seems like they haven't. And this is a crazy situation and everything's burning down around you and you're trying to fix them, you know, a million things at once. Um, a lot of us have been there. Um, and you know, whether you do it through the chief of staff association or whether you do it through your own networks or that you're building, um, just find some other chiefs of staff who you trust, um, build deep relationships with them, um, and have regular catch ups with them because I just think. You know, and we're really, you know, we're really big on this at the Chief of Staff Association. Take care of yourself and you'll do a better job. Um, and a lot of Chiefs of Staff are very selfless people that give a lot and don't expect much in return, um, which is a fantastic and brilliant trait, um, but can also lead to lead to burnout. And I think it's really important that Chiefs of Staff have leadership. Um, a community of their own that they lean on for people who understand that this is a challenging role, but it's incredibly rewarding. Um, and so let's talk about those challenges and not shy away from them. So would really encourage people if they don't, if they don't feel like they have the time carve out the time. Um, and I'm sure your principal would understand if you took a few hours out a week to dedicate to your own professional development, because you'll be better for them and better for your organization if you do so.

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

Beautiful. Trent, you have the last word.

trent-smyth_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Thanks. Uh, I love that, Jeremy too. That's excellent. Um, I think what's very, very important and we, um, perhaps haven't touched on yet too, is the success of a chief of staff in any organisation, um, as a relies upon being set up for success. Um, employing a chief of staff isn't the solution. That's part of the solution. It's the start of the solution. What you need to do is make sure you set up that chief of staff for success. That means among other things, you know, uh, letting the rest of the organization understand and know, um, you know, the, the position, the role, the hierarchy and so on of that chief of staff, but perhaps more importantly, it's the relationship between the chief of staff the principal of the organization. I hope that people get a sense that Jeremy and I are very close and it's genuine and authentic and we really are great friends, great mates, as we say, um, but, but understanding that the chemistry between the principal and the CEO is, and the chief staff is very, very important. I'll finish on this note. I, I, I heard a great, um, definition, if you like, or a friend of mine in Australia's, um, has a, uh, an EA and a chief of staff. Um, and I said to him, you seem to run it all so smoothly. What's the secret sauce? And he said, quite elegantly, he said, um, in my office, there are three personalities and one ego. Uh, though. really sums it up wonderfully. Three personalities and one ego. So leave with that. But before we go, I want to say thank you so much, Emily, for having Jeremy and I and featuring the Chief of Staff Association. We appreciate the opportunity to talk to you and to talk to all your listeners. It's a great pleasure and, uh, and thank you.

emily-sander_1_01-16-2025_080733:

Well, it's been an absolute pleasure. And I have personally learned a lot more about the chief of staff association. I knew a working knowledge before, but now I know a lot more and selfishly. happy because now I have a resource and episode to send people when I get all these questions. So thank you so much for, for being on. I hope it's one of many, many future conversations, but thank you, Jeremy. Thank you, Trent.

jeremy-costa_1_01-16-2025_160732:

Thank you, Emily.