Leveraging Leadership

A Decade in the Making: Founder and COS Together Again

• Emily Sander • Season 1 • Episode 151

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Emily Sander talks with guests Nikki Barua and Cheryl Couch about building and leading a professional development platform that helps businesses grow highly engaged, future-ready talent. Using community-driven, tech-enabled learning, they help top companies boost revenue, retention, and engagement while empowering diverse professionals to rise as resilient leaders. Their mission is to expand economic opportunity for all, guiding professionals from campus to the C-suite and creating a platform that accelerates success for everyone. Because when more of us have a seat at the table, everyone wins.

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Who Am I?

If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want. 


Time Stamps:

01:55 Company Growth and Team Dynamics
02:43 Nikki and Cheryl's 13-Year Journey
05:04 The Role of Chief of Staff
07:18 Introducing the Chief of Staff Role to the Team
10:08 Evolving Responsibilities of Chief of Staff
21:32 Preparing for Series A Funding
26:29 Lessons from Past Experiences
27:42 The Importance of a Chief of Staff

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

Our guests today are Nikki Berua and Cheryl Couch. Nikki is a serial entrepreneur. She sits on several boards. She's an author, a keynote speaker, and right now she is the CEO of Beyond Barriers. And Cheryl is a change agent, a customer experience expert, and the chief of staff at Beyond Barriers. Thank you both for being on the show.

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

Thank you for having us.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

Nikki, can you just start us off by explaining What Beyond Barriers does and how you structure your team.

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

Absolutely. Beyond Barriers. We help companies turn their talent from athletes to Olympians. Every company's talent pool is its greatest asset, but often they leave a lot of that potential. under leveraged because people don't have access to the right resources at the right time. And we're really disrupting the professional development space. And our career fitness platform unlocks that full potential of all people in the workplace with the, uh, with a I enabled coaching. And cohort based master classes taught by executives from around the world. So it's really democratizing access to the best skills development, leveraging the wisdom of humans and the power of a I and we're, you know, our goal is to make sure that every person can go further, faster and achieve their, their goals. Dreams and ambitions without any barriers holding them back.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

Wow. Amazing. And what stage of the company are you guys in? How many, how does your team look like today?

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

So we're about two years since the launch of the company were really gearing up for a series a round right now. So, and we're still fairly early stage. Um, then, um, you know, our app is officially live in the app. So. store and um, thousands of customers from around the world. We really focus on large enterprises and so we're working with some of the world's biggest companies across financial services, professional services and so forth. And all of that incredible. is being done with a small but mighty team internally and several incredible partners that we have across various functions.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

And Cheryl, you and Nikki have a long work history together. I think it's about 13 years. So can you take us through that? Where did that start and how has that evolved over time?

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

It has been some time and it's been a great experience. Um, I think Nikki and I first started working together, um, 13 years ago, It was, I, I, I was an individual contributor as a developer in the past. So coming in and starting to work with Nikki more at a company level was definitely a switch. and our, our relationship, working work relationship has evolved over the years in that you have to constantly be. and changing the world's changing businesses, changing. And so the CEO role is changing, right? What, what they, what falls in their responsibility is changing and with technology and things like that. So as that's, as the CEO evolves and has, as Nikki has evolved over the last 13 years, I've had to also evolve. So, um, yeah, it's been a, it's been a great experience. We, we learned together. Um, but it's, it's really been a great experience

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

Yeah. And I love that.

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

those 13 years, uh, it's also been three companies. Um, so part of the fascinating, um, you know, experience has really been that together we have. Started, grown and scaled and also exited businesses, you know, so it's been sort of a full, entire life cycle of all business stages. And each one is unique and different, not just in terms of stages, but every business has been a different kind of industry, uh, and different kind of challenges. And of course, over the course of more than a decade, a lot changes, um, in the environment as well. So it's been fascinating to see, um, our. Partnership, you know, kind of. Navigate through all of those things.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

Yes. And I think it's interesting when we grow as people, right? So over a decade plus you're growing as a person and then professionally you're learning and gaining experience. And I think if you do go through that full life cycle of a business, you're handling a lot of different things together. And so that just makes you grow in partnership as well. So Nikki, what had you. Bring on a chief of staff to be on barriers.

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

Um, well, um, at Beyond Barriers, because this was really for Cheryl and me, it was sort of our third venture together. Um, I had learned from my past experience, um, how mission critical the role of a chief of staff really is. In order for the executive to be successful and, um, having seen not just the tremendous value of the role, but also, you know, uh, what happens when you don't have either someone in that role or the wrong person in that role. Um, I've also experienced that and that. Really taught me the criticality of that. In fact, the very first person I brought on was the chief of staff, you know, before anyone else came on board, it was the chief of staff role. And, um, that's really been the advice I've given to all fellow founders and executives that. You know, your success is really dependent on finding the right, you know, partner, um, the right duo, the right compliment. And, um, you know, it's not just about leverage. It's about seeing things from a different lens. It's about, um, bringing a complimentary set of skills where it's one plus one is 11 and being able to do that. Right. So, um, you know, when I was first envisioning. Beyond barriers before we had even officially registered the company. The first conversation I actually flew out, um, at that time, uh, we were living in different cities and I flew out to see Cheryl and, and, uh, you know, spend a weekend trying to convince her to come on board to a non existent business with no revenue and no customers and no team. So, um, it was, uh, it was definitely a, you know, a must have

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

That's an interesting pitch. Yeah. I have nothing, but please come be my chief of staff.

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

Exactly. How would you like to work seven days a week, 12 hour days, uh, for no pay and no business and no revenue, but it's going to be fun.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

Sign me up. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. So as new people started coming on the team and especially executives or investors and things like that, how did you both, both of you introduce the role of chief of staff to others who might not have worked with the chief of staff before, or, you know, had never met Cheryl before? How did you go about introducing that role to the team?

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

Yeah. And, you know, it's, um, also, uh, another interesting aspect of the role is the size of the organization because sometimes it's easier to understand the need or the value of the role. If you are 10, 000 person company. And, uh, the executive as the chief of staff. if you are, especially when we were starting out, it's a two person company. And one is a chief of staff and it feels like almost somewhat frivolous if you don't understand what the role is about. Um, but, uh, you know, the way, you know, I have operated with Sheryl and, you know, we look at all of the challenges and the strategic objectives and priorities that need to be achieved and really look at how we divide and conquer that in a way where, you know, her skills and focus and strengths. compliment mine. And so we're actually able to achieve a lot more in a lot less time. And business is all about momentum. And particularly for startups, it's so much about momentum, right? And especially at the early stage. So, um, having the right team around you gives you that leverage, but Um, I feel like in a chief of staff, one of the unique characteristics often, especially for, um, executives that have had the same chief of staff for a long time across different functions, it's also about the relationship, the chemistry, the trust, um, and the connection that it becomes shorthand. You know, anything that needs to be done. There's a shorthand when you don't even need to complete a sentence. You just know how to anticipate what the other will do. And you just navigate through things so much faster. So bringing that value, admittedly, you know, as new people came on board, some were very familiar with the role, especially in corporate roles, um, maybe didn't understand why we needed that in a tiny team. other cases, there were some team members who had no idea what a chief of staff does. And so some of that was explaining that this is a person who is really sort of the connective tissue across all the management team members, but also moving the ball along across all of the strategic priorities. providing leverage and, um, you know, really mission critical ways. But I think the true test ultimately became of seeing Cheryl in action. I think it made very clear why we need this role and the value that she brings.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

And then Cheryl, as you're in this, uh, This nascent non existent company and then you're moving it through to its series a funding. What are you doing as chief of staff? I mean, I can guess like everything, but how is that role evolved from that first conversation where Nikki flew out to see you to do the pitch, um, to now where you've launched the app and you're growing? What, what is your chief of staff role look like or evolved through during that time?

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

that's a great question. Um, I think, you know, in the beginning of a startup the very beginnings, there's nothing you're not doing. And you're, you're right. When you said what everything, and you are doing everything, you know, um, and that is part of the evolution, right? So as you're, here's, it's, we already had the relationship, but now it's a new business, right? And so it's, how are we working together with this new business? Right. And so in the beginning I did. Everything, you know, and so today I'm still doing a lot of things, but I'm not doing everything right. And so I had my role now has changed to I'm, I'm definitely doing, but I'm doing more along the lines of special projects and things like that versus, you know, there's all these things that need to get done. Um, I'm also. You know, I pull, pull, pulling myself up a bit to a higher ground and I don't mean higher, like better, but above to see, Hey, what are all the things happening in the company? Um, and making sure that, you know, everything that we're doing is aligned to culture, really like the culture of quality, the culture of our mission and staying true to, you know, what, we're trying to do here. So I think today I do a little bit of everything. I still touch on everything, but I'm not actually executing in the way that I once was in the beginning.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

Yeah. So at the beginning, it was like, I'm the head of marketing and the head of finance and the head of janitorial services. And, and now it's, I'm, you're moving to a more,

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

was head with no body, you know, like it was like you're the head of everything you want to be of every function, you know, so, uh, it was, uh, and it's interesting, right? Because, uh, being, uh, you know, uh, seeing Cheryl hands on execute and build functions from the ground up every single one from like day one. Um, every part of the business, implementing every system, developing every process, um, you know, hands on executing every single piece, um, from those early days to now, as we've brought on people to take on those independent functions, There's been, you know, a knowledge transfer and sort of, you know, handing off the baton to someone else. But now it becomes much more about connecting the dots across all of the functions to make sure that uh, you know, canoe is heading in the right direction in the same direction and, you know, aligning and, um, addressing disconnects where they happen, which, um, the chief of staff is naturally more. Um, you know, on the ground and able to see that than I would

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

yeah, I like that. I like that canoe analogy because when I was chief of staff, when I first got there, we had canoes going every direction and some canoes were just spinning in a circle over in a corner. So I was like, all right, everyone, let's, let's move this way together. Um, so I love that analogy and Cheryl, I'm always curious. Since you had such a longstanding relationship with Nikki and had that shorthand, like I can read your mind, you can like kind of look at me a certain way, and I know what you want to have happen. How do you now effectively communicate to others on behalf of your principal? So when it's like, okay, I need to kind of translate what's happening here so other people can understand. How do you, how do you go about doing that?

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

with a lot of empathy, because my communication style can be very high D, you know, like very direct, abrupt and short and to the point, especially when it's sort of driving things through. And then Cheryl does the, well, what she really means is.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

The soft, the soft hammer. Yes. Um, got it. Okay. And then. Nikki, how have you seen a benefit when like being CEO is a lonely job, right? Being chief of staff is a lonely job in a certain sense, but you do have a trusted advisor and someone who look, I can go to this person. I can vent if I need to, I can be vulnerable. If I need to, I can be very candid and we can have candid conversations about the direction of the business. How has that played out with Cheryl as your chief of staff? And

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

That's literally the most precious aspect of the role in the relationship. Um, that, um, is, equal parts, trusted advisor, sounding board, um, coach when necessary, you know, someone who, uh, gives you that unfiltered, you know, feedback that you need to hear that. Others may not be comfortable saying it the way, you know, Cheryl can um, sometimes, um, therapist and friend, you know, so it's all things rolled into one and, uh, you know, in our case, because there's not only history, but so much sort of practical experience across so many different. businesses, business challenges that we've sort of seen all seasons together. Right. And, and so, uh, we also know, I mean, her ability to anticipate how something might affect me positively or negatively, or the hesitations, sometimes the self doubt, sometimes the, uh, need to realize, wow, this is a huge leap that I've never taken before. Um, and sometimes it's about personal implications, especially as an entrepreneur, there's a lot of. Risk, uh, there's a lot of financial liability, you know, um, stresses that you go through that are, um, you know, not trivial in any way. And so someone who has context of that and knows how something might, you know, you see a KPI dashboard and you see the numbers are not where they need to be. Well, it's one thing to see it as a, you know, here's the business impact, but it's another for, you know, your chief of staff to know, Oh gosh. is probably what she's feeling about, you know, her personal impact on this. So I think there's so much power in having that, that, um, it, it, it, it's sort of, um, it's not just having a cheerleader and a supporter, it's really someone who, um, gives you your power identity and, um, helps you feel truly empowered, um, and not just supportive.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

I always say that when you're at such an early stage company, the hires you make, so who you bring onto the team can make or break the company. So Cheryl, as chief of staff, how do you, what do you look for? What types of candidates or what types of traits do you look for when you're like, okay, this is going to be the third or fourth or fifth person at this company. What types of people are you looking to bring into your organization?

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

My number one thing that I, I think that we look for and that I definitely look for is somebody who is, is a learner, always be learning, right. Um, I, and, and also has values alignment, like I mentioned earlier, you know, quality, everything should be quality, even if it, you might not, it might not be your thing or, or, or you might not have done it before, but you're open to learning it. And you want it to be quality. You want whatever we do to, to be, to live to, to, up to our standards, which is, if you're going to do something, do it right, right? Um, we. We're impacting a lot of people, right? Our community, our customers, like they're, they're so important to us. Um, so we want people on board with us who feel the same, right? Who feel like, Hey, we're doing something really valuable here, really important for other people. So we need to make sure that when they come on, they also have that mindset. Like, Hey, this is really great to be part of this and. want to do the best that I can for myself, for the company, for our customers, um, and for our community. Um, so I think, you know, obviously quality is a big thing for me, but, um, mostly I feel like somebody who's just always willing to learn and they want to learn and they, they say, Hey, I don't, I might not have this right now, but I'm going to, I'm going to get it.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

I'm going to jump in and figure it out, which is an important trait. Yeah. Okay. So aligned on mission, I'm, I'm bought into the mission. I'm, I'm there with you. I'm willing to jump in and learn something new and I have a spirit of excellence. I want everything to be high quality for our customers. Okay.

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

And one, one more thing I would add to that is also, you know, accountability. Um, somebody who, who can be accountable for whether they get something done or not, whether they do something right or not, who, who, who

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

Owns it,

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

can come and say, Hey, you know what, I, I didn't do this right. But, you know, let me, let me do it again, or can you help me? I didn't understand what I was doing the first time. Um, but somebody who says I'm going to do something, um, actually, that was one of the things I've always said when, when, when interviewing people, I always used to say, what's your favorite type of person to work with? And I always would say the type of person that I'll call up and say, I'm having this issue and they say, I'm on it. And when I hang up the phone, I'm like, no need to think about it again. Exactly.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

Yes. And then as the company has evolved, where do you find the most, the most, I don't wanna say appropriate, but the most valuable places where a chief of staff can be involved. I mean, that changes over time. So you've mentioned pulling out to kind of a higher level, more strategic. You bring people on, make sure they have the key traits you're looking for. But then how, how do you find, okay. Okay. Nikki and the company need me here, or here's the way I contribute best now. Where do you find those pockets as chief of staff?

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

I think, um, I think to my previous statement, uh, I want, we want people who are always learning and I'm always learning. Um, so I think, you know, it evolves, right? So I know here's, I'm, I'm doing all these things now. Um, and then Nikki and I meet weekly. So, and she also is, shares with me, Hey, these are things I really could use. And so I, I do a weekly reflection on a Friday and say, Every Friday and say, Hey, you know, what, what did I do good? What did I do well this week? And what do I, where do I need to improve? Um, it, it constantly changes to be honest. And, um, like I said, you know, bringing myself above, cause sometimes I get in the weeds. Um, and, uh, so bringing myself up and saying, Hey, where am I? Where do I really need to be right now? Like, do I need to be doing that? Is there something I'm not paying attention to because I'm in this weed?

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

Is there something I'm not paying attention to because I'm in this weed? That's a great, that's a great quote. Um, and then as you look forward, what is coming up for beyond barriers? What are you excited about upcoming or in the longterm future?

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

Well, we have, uh, we're on the cusp of hitting sort of the next level. Real phase of a company's evolution. We're officially going to go from startup to scale up now. And, uh, we've met all of sort of the growth metrics, if you will, of, you know, the, the startup stage. So this is the next growth stage for us, which means, um, beyond the fundraising, it's significant, um, hiring, it's a lot of growth and expansion, uh, really the maturity of the. business and the organization, right? In terms of systems, processes, people, all of that, which also means there's gonna be a lot more complexity, many layers, a lot, maybe not as much speed as you can have when you have a tiny team. And so really thinking about how do we hold on to the things that we must? Um, and what are the things that It's time to shed. And what are the new things that we have to grow into? So it's, much like, uh, a child's, uh, growth phase, right? It's sort of going from, um, you know, from, uh, you know, a toddler to a teenager type of thing. And, uh, you have to be very intentional about, you know, uh, the every, um, decision around, you know, what are the things non negotiable in, in this case, it's our core values. And we actually like recently, um, had an offsite where we went back and revisited our core values to look at, are these still the right core values for this next stage? Are there some that we need to drop in some new ones that we need to adopt? Because that sits at the center of, you know, everything that will grow, right? Because that becomes, um, the yardstick, the guiding principle, you know, in, in how we hire, how we, uh, lead people, how we interact with each other. So being really thoughtful about that, we literally spent three days thinking about, you know, revisiting and reflecting on a core value. So that was a, Hey, this is now, you know, the part that we carry on, you know, the parts that we need to shed. Well, you know, early stages, a lot of chaos and a lot of, You know, test and learn and, and being erratic and sort of, you're just prioritizing speed and you're throwing things at the wall, trying to figure out what sticks and what works. because you are trying to experiment and get to the right answer quicker. Well, that works for that stage, but once you're at a scale up, a lot of definition is now in place, which means you can be erratic. You can be chaotic. You can be, you know, just throwing things around. You have to be a lot more systematic. So that means structures. role definitions, um, metrics. All of those have to be differently done. It also means there's a change in the cadence of communication, how we have meetings, what the meetings are about. One of the big shifts we've already seen is from early stage meeting. It was just about task list like, you know, Did we get all these things? It's like a punch list, right? Like, we're just trying to move through things. Now. It's very much defined on how are we doing against these very specific metrics because now we have specific metrics to guide her. So, Cheryl, managing to that to say, how are we doing against these very strategic priorities? These very specific metrics. And that's the shift from going from, you know, a tiny chaotic team to a much more structured, systematic, um, high performing Navy SEAL team. Right. And then the new parts of what we have to grow into is also recognize that there will be a different expectation. We, you know, as you mature and you get much bigger, it becomes about management skills, uh, not just entrepreneurial skills. So turning into, um, You know, developing as leaders, um, you know, building managers, growing people and hiring the right people, all of that will start to play in a much more significant way and just literally in the next few months. So it's a, it's a significant shift that we're going through. And, uh, you know, as, uh, I've been. Defining and navigating through that. It's been, um, you know, really about partnering with Cheryl to implement and sort of bring all of these shifts in place as we gear up for this next stage.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

It's very clear. You've done this before because you both recognize and accept that the company stage is changing and that it needs new things. A lot of first time founders cling on to that old, that kind of the, the first way of doing things and they can't let go. So it's very clear that you've, you've been in the studio before.

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

absolutely. And it's, uh, it's because we made that mistake in a past experience. We clung on to certain things, not just because we wanted it, it was because the team was unwilling. team that was there from the early stages felt like it was a loss. Like they didn't want to lose that specialness.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

Yeah.

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

suddenly it was getting all sort of businessy and it wasn't all like love and hugs anymore, you know, that kind of thing. So there was a, uh, reluctance to let go of, um, and the fact that we had not. You know, enforce that change, ended up becoming a dead weight that really caused a lot of cultural, um, and business impact, uh, in a negative way.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

Yeah, and for, for you personally, Nikki, I mean, you've, you've been in these leadership roles before, uh, you're very accomplished and very experienced. How do you see yourself? Okay. At this, at this next round, so to speak, here's what I need to bring to my leadership. So what I've learned from the past, here's what I need to do differently, or here's what I really want to focus on. And maybe even like, okay, here's how I want to partner with Cheryl and utilize the chief of staff role. Knowing me as CEO has to be doing these types of things at this stage.

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

Yeah. Um, you know, the, the big difference in a typical corporate executive role, which I've had in the first half of my career versus being an entrepreneurial executive, which has been the second half of my career, the big difference is a corporate executive. You know, there wasn't dramatic changes and how I needed to show up year after year, right? Because you're already you're going like this and so yeah, you know, as you're as your organization grows or you get promoted and all of that, this, you know, there's a, increase of scope and scale, but it's not dramatic. Um, the difference as a startup executive is year to year, you're kind of going like this and, you know, and, and it's, you could go like this, you could also go like this, you know, it's so volatile in terms of the changes with the business cycles, um, that one minute you're like, Two people next minute, you're 20 next minute, you're 200. So it's, being able to not only anticipate, you know, when that might happen, because when it happens, you don't have two to three years to grow into it. It could happen within a quarter. Um, and so knowing, you know, that that is likely to happen, preparing yourself to be ahead of the business so you can lead it, because if you're behind the business, you're dragging it down and then preparing your team. to be ready for that next stage. And so, that part of it has been, you know, experiencing it first time, you know, firsthand multiple times. I've seen how critical it is to anticipate and prepare and all the things that need to intentionally again, shift and, and, uh, My case for this upcoming stage, um, a lot of it is gonna be, uh, you know, a significant shift towards external focus, a lot more than it needed to be before. Um, and you know, whether it's external focus in terms of a lot more, um, communication to the market or to investors, customers. Or for hiring purposes, right? Being a talent magnet to attract talent. Um, but that also means there's less capacity for internal, you know, the operating of the engine and we have an excellent management team. Um, but that's where, um, chief of staff role in being able to move things, um, you know, systematically in the right direction internally. But making sure that the communication is fluid and, um, you know, rapid is, I think a lot of it changes in terms of the communication cadence because things that you could know a lot faster now starts to break down,

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

Right,

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

things get missed in that. So that part becomes a key shift and, Cheryl's role is the coordination and the communication across. Um, all aspects of the business. Um, and then, you know, together, we've also been, um, preparing everybody else on the team about sort of the next stage, like, what, how do roles shift? You know, what, what can you expect? What, what are you going to have to let go of? How do we intentionally create a different rhythm, um, that we can. You know, sort of give ourselves a little bit of space. You're not going to have two years to prepare for it, but we'll, you know, you can have like six weeks to get ready for this next phase.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

you have to be adaptable and the way you add value changes in small companies like that. So being adaptable, beautiful. And Cheryl, as we wind down here, what is your favorite part about being chief of staff? Do you have any memorable moments from, from your tenure?

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

My favorite part about being chief of staff is Well, obviously I get to work with Nikki, but I mean, that's not about the role. Um, I think that, uh, my favorite part is that I, you get to learn, um, every day almost, uh, and you know, some people might not, some people might not want the, have, have new things all that so much, you know, some people want to go and they want to do the same thing. Um, and that's okay. Um, but in the chief of staff role, you know, you're next week, I'll be doing something that I, I didn't even know that it was a thing. You know, um, so, so you're the, the, the opportunity to learn, you know, and then obviously Nikki is, um, a phenomenal leader and coach for me, um, who I get to learn from, um, from all of her experience and again, learning together. But I think that my favorite part about being the chief of staff is that The opportunity to learn, um, in most everything in the business. Right. I get to, I know some about accounting. I know, I know some HR, I know marketing, you know? Um, so yeah, I would say that's my favorite.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

And I think for chiefs of staff, that's important to hear what Cheryl said. It's an opportunity to learn. So if you're sitting there going, Oh, I have to learn all these different things, or I'm being thrown into new things every day, and that's a burden to you, you know, not right or wrong, but maybe a different job. Is your best suited for, but as chief of staff, it's an opportunity to learn and grow and, you know, have a working knowledge of accounting and marketing and enough to be dangerous in a whole bunch of different areas. So I love the way you phrase that. And then.

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

One thing I've, uh, observed in, in what has, because having had multiple, um, you know, people in, across, throughout my career, over 25 years in various corporate roles and otherwise I've had, uh, the opportunity to work with numerous, uh, folks in chief of staff roles. I would say the ones that truly excelled like Cheryl, um, in, know, in terms of the personality type, um, and. You know, I can only speak from my experience, so I don't know if I'm generalizing. I'd be curious about your perspective on this, Emily. But, you know, I found that it's an interesting bundle of contradictions that personality on one hand, you have to really enjoy variety because variety is just what your day looks like. Just like the CEO's job, right? No two days look alike and same for the chief of staff. No two days look alike. So you have to love variety. But part of what you're also providing a certainty. You have to, um, you know, um, get things done and be, uh, uh, you know, have a command and influence to direct, uh, outcomes, you also must have empathy and build those connections and trusted relationships, people across. So, um, you know, you have to, um. Um, have a keen sense of, uh, quantitative outcomes. but you also have to be able to read, um, the room and connect the dots. So it's, I see so many sort of contradictory skills and capabilities that coexist for someone to truly excel in it that, um, you know, and, and the only way you can sort of really thrive is if you enjoy it, if you're You know, sort of enjoy a sense of play and adventure where the opportunity to grow and learn and, um, take on new challenges every day is fun.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

Being chief of staff is kind of like jumping out of an airplane and saying, I'm going to have fun figuring out how to land in the right place because without knowing we were jumping out. So, and I, I think it's really interesting. You mentioned that kind of mix. It is a variety. It's a, it's a bag of contradictions because on the one hand you have to be so adaptable and nimble and jump into things. And then at the same time, what I would say to the consistency part is, It's a, it's a consistency in how you and how we do things. Not, not that we don't evolve as a company, but how we treat each other and how we approach problems. And okay, if this is something that, uh, the market did this, none of us. Saw that here's as a group. Here's our ethos and attitude of how we respond. And so keeping everyone connected the connective tissue as a as a cohesive group. And we're in this together. And here's how we're going to move forward and approach things. That to me is keeping that part consistent as well. Staff was a, was a key piece, at least for our team. But Nikki, if you were talking to an executive who is like, I'm like chief of staff, like I've heard about that. Do I really need one? I don't know if that's a necessary thing. What would you say to that executive?

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

Um, love yourself more.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

You deserve it. You're worth it.

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

Well, you know, I mean, if you want to excel in your role, uh, and you know, your job as an executive is to make high impact decisions, um, that lead the organization in the right direction and execute, you know, what was committed and to do that, um, It's, you know, really hard to accomplish that without the right partner by our side. And I think of it as a duo, right? Uh, you know, the right sort of, uh, duo that bring a complimentary set of skills, um, but are able to operate at two different altitudes in the same direction. And I think that's, I just can't even imagine anyone, any executive being truly effective if they don't have that, um, leverage, um, and, and that kind of partnership.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

Yes. I think that, uh, word you. Use altitude. That's a great way to describe what me and my principal had. We were, we were at different levels of our involvement where we're at different altitudes. So he was the CEO and kind of operating here cause he had to, and I was able to operate at different altitudes within the company, but like you just said, we were both moving in the same direction and we both knew where we were going. So that's a, I think a great thing to add as well. And finally, if people want to know more about Beyond Barriers or get in touch with one of you, what is the best place to go?

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

Go beyond barriers. com. Um, certainly check out our website, uh, connect with us on LinkedIn, um, you know, and, uh, You know, our mission is really about helping people go further faster. And, uh, we believe that in a world that's changing fast, if you're standing still or adapting slowly, you're getting left behind. And unfortunately, the people that most often get left behind, and Other ones that don't have access, you know, the ones that marginalized communities are often affected by that. And that's what we want to change. Um, so, um, and in that process, um, it's as much our prerogative to go further, faster ourselves. And that's what we've been doing together.

emily-sander_1_06-26-2024_080317:

Beautiful. We'll have all that information in the show notes, Beyond Barriers. Nikki, Cheryl, thank you so much for being on. Pleasure.

squadcaster-edd0_1_06-26-2024_110316:

Thank you for having us.