Leveraging Leadership

Finding Balance Between Work Tasks and Relationship Building

• Emily Sander • Season 1 • Episode 153

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Emily Sander interviews Matt Hartman, a Chief of Staff at Oracle, about his dual role overseeing employee-facing technology and a service group. Matt shares his strategies for prioritization, like focusing on company-wide goals first, utilizing delegation, and fostering teamwork across global teams. He highlights practices like implementing "Friye" for recognition and ensuring cross-training in his team to handle challenges effectively.


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Who Am I?

If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want. 


Time Stamps:

01:44 Balancing Dual Roles
04:36 Delegation Strategies
12:54 Building Relationships and Influence
19:22 Handling Resistance and Finding Common Ground
23:59 Global Team Management
30:18 Effective Team Meetings and Icebreakers
40:39 Embracing AI and Technology
41:25 The Importance of Giving Back

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

Our guest today is Matt Hartman and he is a Chief of Staff at Oracle. Matt, welcome to the show.

matt-hartman-_1_08-16-2024_120754:

Welcome. Happy to be a part of it.

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

Beautiful. So first of all, you are a Chief of Staff at Oracle, but can you give us a little bit of context? That's a large organization. What specific department are you in and how is your role set up? Just give us a little bit of background information.

matt-hartman-_1_08-16-2024_120754:

Yes. Uh, sure. So, at Oracle, obviously, it's a very large organization that's spread out by lines of business. in the employee facing technology area, so all the technology that's used by the employees internally at the company. I'm responsible for overseeing that as a chief of staff, working directly with my leadership. And I also oversee a service within that area. So our focus is primarily the employees, making sure that they have the tools every day to be successful and be the best version of themselves.

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

Beautiful. And so in that you have this dual role, so there's the chief of staff aspect, and then there's also this service component that's more like a functional head, a functional group that you're overseeing. Is that right?

matt-hartman-_1_08-16-2024_120754:

Yes, that's correct. So, um, it's a good question. I think the way that I tackle it and people that might be in similar situations is. focus primarily on the overall organization first. What is, what do we need to accomplish today? What is the priorities for us? So first thing is making sure my leader is successful in our department, is successful with our goals and strategy roadmap items that we have. So the first thing is focusing there because there's a higher impact, hundreds of people in the department, and then obviously all the employees across the company. So we might be migrating a project. Might have a budget need or something similar. So focusing there first, what are the priorities for today, this week, this quarter, making sure that that is identified and moving forward as anticipated. from there, once that is established and there's a plan and we're moving forward on those, then I focus in on the service that I own and making sure that my staff has the necessary roadblocks blocked. We have the right vendor engagement. We have the right support from different audiences, um, whether it's our stakeholders or different areas. And so that is our priorities that's how I do it. So that's just a high level.

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

Okay. And can you, on the service side, so on the corporate side or company wide side, you mentioned hundreds of people. And of course there's probably thousands, tens of thousands, maybe, uh, employees across Oracle in terms of the service group that you're in charge of, how many people are in that group? What does that structure look like?

matt-hartman-_1_08-16-2024_120754:

Uh, my service area is around 20, 25 people around 20, a little bit over 20 right now. Uh, we're a small, but mighty team and, uh,

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

Okay.

matt-hartman-_1_08-16-2024_120754:

they're spread out across the world. We've got some folks in EMEA and some folks in Asia Pac and in the Americas. So we're spread out, um, but that's intentional because we have employees spread out across the world. And it's important that we have a 24 by seven coverage for the things that we provide. And so that's how the team is established.

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

And you mentioned that your first priority is the, the company wide chief of staff items, and then you move to service. Are there, is there ever a time when those priorities are competing where it's like, Oh my goodness, this is high priority over here, but this is also high priority and it might have a time component. How do you, how do you balance those things?

matt-hartman-_1_08-16-2024_120754:

Yeah, they happen all the time. Uh, and in fact, anybody who's been a chief of staff knows this. And sometimes even it's, running two projects simultaneously. How do I, you know, multitask both of these very well. Some days go better than others. Uh, the way that I do it is try to delegate. With, uh, critical team members and my staff, you know, I have some managers in my, my team and I have individual contributors that can help lead the effort. So I'll reach out to them and communicate, Hey, I need you to go attend this meeting or go drive this particular, uh, particular exercise, whether it's a change control or something similar. Um, so it's more about delegation at that point. then for the company wide efforts, some of those require attention. Maybe as a chief of staff, you're trying to also relay a message from the leader or trying to make sure that we're aligned with the strategy. And so obviously that might need my attention or if it's budget related, obviously want to be present for those kinds of conversations to fill in my leader. So I think the main thing is just trying to figure out what, what things can be delegated and what things can't be. Sometimes topics require your direct intention and involvement, uh, and they can't be delegated because it's sensitive in nature, perhaps, or maybe it's something that, um, you may only be the only person knowing the details. So it's all about making sure, okay, does this person know this or do they not? And if they don't probably need to be there, let's delegate this other task who has good insight and perspective on whatever that is.

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

Yes. And then do both your chief of staff role and your service role Report to the same person. Like, do you have one boss for each of those? Or do you actually have split you're nodding? Okay. Okay. That makes it was like, if you're literally split between two masters that might get even more interesting, but, uh, one boss that rolls up. And then, so your boss knows about your, your, your boss is well aware of your dual functions. you had mentioned prioritization and you also mentioned delegation earlier, and I know a lot of chiefs of staff, almost all chiefs of staff. Struggle with that and are trying to figure out what is the best way, you know, maybe I, I heard Matt say he gives things to his team members when other critical issues come up that only he can do, but how do I make that decision? Or how do I decide if this has to be done right now or in the future? All of it seems important. You seem like you have a pretty key. methodical, thoughtful, proactive way of doing that. So I'm wondering how does that, how does that decision tree or how does that

matt-hartman-_2_08-16-2024_121641:

Yeah, that's a good question. So it depends on what the task is. So I'll start on the, I'll start on the service side and then I'll talk about chief of staff responsibility because there's a different kind of delegation. So on the service side, one of the things that I do is I try to make sure that there was two in a box. One primary, one backup for everything, wherever possible. So if one person is an expert on a particular application or service, have them train, cross train with someone else. Make sure that they understand the ins and outs, who they work with. Because, as we all know, people can be out of the office. What happens when they're out of the office? Somebody has to cover, right? So, it's important that there's cross training established and have, what I call, is two in the box. Have one option and one backup, always. And that way, they're always together and sync with one another in case someone is out, or they get sick, or they got to go to a doctor appointment, whatever. There's always someone there available, because that, it's just part of business. It happens every day, right? Okay. But on the other side, as a chief of staff, let's say we get a task. For budget, we got to do file. Let's do, we've got to plan for the next year. We have a certain timeline that we need to get done. And so delegation in those, in that case, what I typically do is I look at every one of the directs to the, my superior. And. Look at their strengths and their, their areas where they're really good at. Like, what are they very skilled, lots of experience on. How can I teach them or show them what I do and how they can lean in with their skills to kind of fill in for me? Okay, so, um, and maybe someone's good at hiring and we have a lot of things in hiring space where I might need assistance in finding different candidates or something like that. I find the person that has a good rapport has shown through history that they're very good at finding talent. What are the tips and tricks that they have? How can I bring them along to help me to establish a school? So it's all about assessing their skills and talents. And then me as the chief of staff investing in them. So it's a two way street so we can help one another and obviously help the overall organization proceed forward. But to do that though takes time, takes energy to invest in the, those that are a part of the organization, understand those ins and outs of them and understanding their background. So if you're new chief of staff, If you're not familiar, I highly encourage you at the beginning steps of being a chief of staff, spend time with them. Not just about the work stuff, but their background, what have they done, what are they passionate about? What do they love? What do they do every day? What do they do on the side? What are their hobbies? Uh, what are the things they do outside of work? Connect with them on that kind of level. And then when the work starts flowing, it is so much easier to go, Oh yeah, I remember we talked about this the other day. You have this. Side business that where you sell yogurt or something and you're really good at marketing All right, we're gonna go to you and we need some marketing ideas on this new service. We're gonna announce. What do you have? What are some ideas? These are the kind of things that it takes time But as a chief of staff sometimes you get so bogged down with the task and just saying okay What do we got to get done? Where are we headed? What's due today? But if you take that energy and invest in the relationships with the people that you work with, and understand what makes them tick and what are the things that they're interested in, their background, I'm telling you, when you start delegating, it's not so much like, Hey, so and so, I need you to go do this. They're gonna be like, oh yeah, absolutely. I get it. All right, this is, and then sometimes I explain like, Hey, we discussed. You're really good at this. Here's a chance where I can, I need to pick your brain on this, right? What can we do a little bit different? So I tried that it's worked really good There are times where sometimes they get a little bit over their head, but like oh man This is a lot more than I thought i've been used to right and then that's okay, too But that's another coaching opportunity for me to help them and them to help me So that we can do, you know, get the task done. So that's how I do it. Is it always perfect? No, but I, I look at each opportunity as a, something to learn from, right? Good or bad, we're going to learn it together. We're going to still get the job done. That's just the way it is. It's going to happen no matter what. May require me a little bit, take me a little bit longer, but it'll get done.

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

I love everything you just said. And I think if you, if listener go rewind and listen to that portion, cause there were so many key pieces, which I love the investment of time. It does take more time. But it's so important and it reaps dividends in the long run. And I think there's a sense of we're in this together. So mentorship and coaching and you learning from them. I think all of those are great components and you're right. Chiefs of staff have, you know, a whirlwind happening. They're going a million miles a minute and they're like, I can't possibly stop and actually talk to this person and train them up yet. That's what they need to do. So I love everything you just said. And I think a lot of chiefs of staff would. Would do well to incorporate some more of those pieces that you just mentioned. out of curiosity, do you have a dedicated team on the chief of staff side of things, or are you talking about working with colleagues through

matt-hartman-_2_08-16-2024_121641:

A good question. So these are individuals that, what I would say is like, uh, those that report to my same superior. So they would be more of a peer. So it's like influence without authority, kind of a situation. They're not people that, uh, that report directly to me. So that's where I feel like there are times when I ask them to do something, it kind of gets a little bit. You know, you're not quite sure exactly how they'll react. You know, uh, you know, if I ask them to do something, how will they respond? So I always look at it as I don't, it doesn't have to be like that. It doesn't have to be like, I have to be worried about what, how they feel about me asking them for help. It's more about. We're in this together, right? But only to, to get to that point though, it requires a strong relationship with each individual leader because they're obviously busy with the things that they have, but working together side by side, letting know we're in this as a group. It's not just me on you being independent. We are the same team without you or me or us together. We can't be successful. So, uh, and who knows at some point. They may become a leader in another department and they may want to get my advice to help them, you know, so it's just, it's one of these things that's, it continues to give back. Um, but in those situations where it's influencing without that authority. It's the, you, the core basis for me is all about relationships. Start with that. Then from there, look into, make it a two way street, see how you can help them. Check in on them. You know, they may be drowning in, Hey Matt, we got this task that you sent to us and we can't, we don't know how to do this. And then I can maybe do another double click and spend some time with their team that's struggling with the task and help them so that next time they're going to be much more prepared. But again, it requires a back and forth. It's not a one way street as a chief of staff. And I've seen a lot of chief staff struggle because they, they tend to have it as a one way like, Hey, we got to get this file done. We got to get this document done. And it usually comes off as, Hey, I only need you because of this file or this to do item, right? But it doesn't have to be like that. It can be, it can be both ways. Like, so I also spend time at the, just the beginning of the day or sometimes in the week just to check on them. Hey, how you doing? How's your day going? What are the challenges yet? What questions do you have? Because once they see that I can provide value to them beyond just giving them tasks, like, Hey, I need you to get this stuff done. That helps them and they're going to say, Hey, Matt, I know, you know, this person, can you help me connect this contact with that, you know, and so those are just little tips that I've learned along the way that, uh, with these influencing without authority situations. And it's really helped me tremendously.

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

I think it's influence without authority. And what you also talked about was not having transactional relationships or exchanges, but have like building that relationship overall. And I know a lot of people. They, they know to do that and they try to do that. And of course there's different people. Some people might be very open to that. Oh my gosh, we have a new chief of staff. That's amazing. Or maybe a chief of staff was established first and then other people came on board. So it's a little bit different when the chief of staff has always been there. But I, I know there's cases where some people, they try to reach out. They try to build that relationship and that person wants nothing to do with it. They're like, Nope, I don't need you. I don't need your time. I don't want to deal with you. I'm not saying you had this situation with your team, but in general, since you seem to really think about this and be thoughtful, what would you say to a chief of staff struggling in that

matt-hartman-_2_08-16-2024_121641:

Oh wow. That's a, so in a scenario where someone is resistant, um, and doesn't want anything to do with you, the main thing about it is, okay, where are the intersections and where's the commonalities between me and this individual? Where can we meet in the middle? Right. So, um, I've had scenarios where that has happened in, in my career. And the main thing is find where you're coming. Where are those things that are common with one another? Cause you're at some point, you're going to intersect, whatever that looks like. Right. And, um, when someone is resistant, uh, a lot of it has to be, uh, put yourself in their shoes, kind of a scenario. What are, what are they facing? Why would they feel that way? Maybe it's another previous chief of staff they worked with that was always giving them tasks and they have this. stigma about the position itself. Maybe it's because, um, you know, they don't feel the need in it and maybe there's, you know, history there. Um, so the way that I would go about it is really understanding where, kind of where they're at and why they feel that way. And be empathetic to that. If they don't want anything to do with you, don't force the relationship and say, well, we're going to have to work together regardless. Right. Um, but be empathetic to what they're doing and there's going to be a time, and I always look at it this way, there's going to be a time where the bridge is going to cross where both of you are going to need one another, or you're hearing that they're struggling. I always. I'm a believer that I always offer my help regardless if they ask it or not when I see it. It's kind of like if you see a burning building, are you going to be a person that just sits on the side and waits for the firemen to go take it out or are you going to go try to go in and help? That's the kind of attitude that I look at with the chief of staff role is if you see someone whether they agree with you or not or don't see value in you if you go in and Approach them with a positivity and show them i'm here to help you regardless of how you feel about me or this position they're going to see that I care about the success of them as well as I do our team because They're a part of it, right? So I I I basically listen And empathetically listen to what they're dealing with Maybe make some contacts within their team. Maybe they're having some strokes, they're stressed out because they have all these deliverables and they can't get them done. And I'm just adding more work to the pile. Maybe I'm causing that additional frustration. So put my ear to the ground, listen, hear what the challenges are, and maybe that'll help put the pieces together on why they feel that way. Maybe they have, uh, someone has shared some feedback about me individually. Perhaps they've heard about, Oh, Matt, I've heard about you perhaps. And those scenarios too, I mean, it's okay. Not everyone's going to agree with you as the chief of staff and what you do, but I think the main thing is be empathetic and figure out how you can help them because they will need help at some point for something, um, because they can't do everything by themselves. Right? So that's how I do it. It's not perfect, but that's how I navigate it.

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

I really appreciated that answer. I think we have to avoid forcing it because I love what you said. It's like, we're going to have a relationship, whether you like it or not. It's like this forced family fun scenario, which people, some people are resistant to. So I think it is, if you're running into that, it's look, don't force it. Like Matt said, Always be listening, always be open, be positive. I'm here to help you and just have them know that you're here when you need them. And then there will come opportunities where, you know, you, you, the bridge, the bridges cross and you're working on a project together, or maybe as a leadership group, you're all working on something together and you have more interaction, but those things will pop up. And it might be a function of time where someone just has to get used to you and has to start seeing, okay, I see. He's doing some really good things in some other places. Okay. Like maybe I'm going to be more open to that. And I really liked what you said about not assuming why they're acting like that. They could, they could be resistant to you for, A hundred different reasons. And for you to assume something is a little bit, a little bit tricky and could be inaccurate. So I like that approach, but I've, I've just come across so many chiefs of staff who run into that. And I'm like, you have a really good angle and perspective on things. So I wanted to get that

matt-hartman-_2_08-16-2024_121641:

Yeah, sure.

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

so thank you. One more thing I wanted to touch on is because you mentioned you have a global team and I've led global teams and there's pros to that because you can support customers in different regions, there's some challenges Getting a cohesive team and feeling like we are a team because we're so spread out. How do you go about communication and team meetings and trying to foster a sense of camaraderie? And we're on the same team when everyone is literally

matt-hartman-_2_08-16-2024_121641:

Well, yeah. Wow. That's, it's funny that you mentioned this is this is really something I'm passionate about global teams and managing and working in global environments is not as easy as you would think. Um, for a variety of reasons, you have cultural differences. You also have time zone differences, and you also have a different perspective on work. It's a view differently in different company or different countries and how they view work. Yeah. One of the biggest things that I always say is appreciation goes a long ways. All right. So today's Friday. I, as a chief of staff, one of the things that I feel is important as a chief of staff person, besides doing the task is creating a culture and, and establishing a microcosm of a space where people can be themselves, regardless of where they're located, where, what their backgrounds are and allow them to be themselves and the best version of themselves. So on Fridays, I introduced a program called, uh, Friyay, and basically, uh, on Friyay, we do shout outs. So we are a team that's global. They have people all over the place. And, uh, I did, I instituted this idea when I was, uh, at another, uh, my last job, uh, during COVID. So people think of it as that time people were all facing different things in their lives. It was very difficult in the world. People just needed positivity, something that made them feel good, something, anything. And so every Friday I have. My, I always do it and many other managers have joined in and every leaders and even individuals We give a shout out to somebody who's done something awesome in that for the week helped us out with something uh, maybe they uh gave Finished a project Maybe they saved a bunch of money or came up with an awesome idea And give them a shout out because that kind of recognition globally think about it hundreds of people are now finding out about Steven or joe or sally or whoever it is For the great things that they do. So I always feel like that's important. Give somebody a platform, especially for things that they do really good and show them appreciation. So that's one. Uh, the second thing is creating a space, a water cooler, or a, you know, a channel of some sort, whether you use different technology platforms. To communicate direct messages regardless of the time zone you're in to allow people to communicate on topics You can create a channel about a specific topic Or something that's more water coolerish, like team based, um, environment. So I create something like that, um, and encourage, you know, some fun, but also work. So it's a blend of both. It's kind of a hard balance sometimes. And sometimes if it goes a little too fun, then you have to kind of watch that and navigate it, of course. Uh, but, um, the biggest thing that I always try to do is allow a space for people to be recognized, be who they are. Maybe they have, are passionate about. Volunteering or something, right? Uh, creating environments, channels, places where they can share that. Um, and if they're super passionate about it, allow them to speak in a town hall. I know as the chief of staff, we control like, uh, the agenda for our town halls in our areas. And one of the things that I try to do as well is like, okay, this person is really, really good at public speaking, like super good. Like what are some tips that they can teach? And it is going to benefit everybody else. Try to make my town halls Not just about the business. That is good. I'm not saying that it's not, but if I add some nuggets of knowledge, who wouldn't want to go to a meeting to get some nuggets of knowledge? I think everybody would love to get some tips on public speaking, or maybe that they might have some suggestions on how to set up a volunteer area to do something in their communities. If I see some different skills or attributes of an individual that could benefit a wider audience, try to get them a platform, again, another platform for them, whether they're located in different parts of the world, to talk about some of the things that they're doing. So it's a, it's, it's not easy. And it takes time and a lot of trial and error because you can try things and, oh, that didn't work. We only had one person that really engaged. Let's try this. See if that works. All right. Oh, that did work. Okay. We've got some momentum. Let's do that. But I think the main thing is being okay with failure in those experiments, trying to establish that culture globally where it works, but don't force it again. Enforcing culture is the opposite of authenticity. And so you want to create an environment where they're their true selves, no, no other hidden barriers or veils over top, just allow them to be themselves and, and show their best version of themselves. So again, that's this, how I navigate it. But it takes time because your first attempt may not work or a second or third.

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

and that's, and that's fine. I think failure is use that and move forward. And I've also heard you say a couple of times, you know, look, I'm not perfect at this, but this is what we try for. I think that's great as well. I mean, if people are saying that, gosh, Matt seems to have his. Stuff together. That sounds like a perfect solution. I really appreciate you sharing. Look, my plan. Here's what I try to do. Do I hit it a hundred percent every time? No, but I keep continuing to move forward and trying to refine that, which I think is exactly what a chief of staff has to do. You have to have that mentality. It's not going to be perfect. It's going to be a little bit wobbly, but we're going to keep going in the right direction. So love that too. I just had a quick question on the team, on the global team thing. What is your take on team meetings? Because when I had a global team, I really wanted the team members to be in one team meeting altogether, but with time zones, it was, it was very difficult. And so what we ended up doing is having quarterly team meetings where everyone was together and one. Region had to be a little bit outside of the normal work hours, and we would rotate that. So you only had to do that, you know, once or twice a year, but I felt it was important for everyone to be on the call together. I remember, um, I had this great, uh, this great person on my team, Felicia, Felicia, if you're listening, God bless, but we would have meetings about how to figure out like reserving this conference

matt-hartman-_2_08-16-2024_121641:

Yeah.

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

reserving this one and what timeframe would work best for this person. And we would do that whole thing, but I really felt it was important to. Be together as a group and then in between on the in between months, we would just have like, I would, we would meet with teams individually by region. So I just

matt-hartman-_2_08-16-2024_121641:

Uh, Oh, wow. This is a good one. Um, I've seen an experience and tried all of these myself. One of the things you didn't mention is another option, but again, not the same. And again, a different mixed reactions on it is having a prerecorded town hall. Those can be shared as well. So like, for example, like, It's during the holiday months and people were out of the office. You could do a prerecorded session. And share that that works for everyone during, you know, maybe someone's out of the office. We might have low attendance. You could try that Um how I do it today isn't perfect by any means and like you said you could Have meetings specifically in time zones and rotate we could try that Um, and it'll be mixed or you could do it split up, like you said, um, how I do it or how we do it today for, for my area is we just have it at as early as possible that works with all of my U. S. folks and then try to do it an acceptable late time for my folks in Asia Pac or in EMEA. It's not perfect because, uh, you know, some of my team members may be going and taking care of their family or doing some other activities in their lives, so We try that and then try to summarize in notes on paper The key items in our main team channel to say hey, here's the key items we covered And I try in advance to share the agenda, so if there's specific topics they want to know what we're going to cover, if they can or can't attend, they're going to know what it is, and they can, you know, reach out to us if they want specifics. But it's not, it's not easy. Um, the recorded session is interesting, and we have tried that a few times, and it has been somewhat successful. But it does lose that in live interaction scenario where people sometimes would like to ask questions in real time. So there is a little bit of that, but I do think that it makes sense to leverage perhaps during times where there might be, you know, a lot of people out of the office for them to review and see in their own time and then not need the calendar time at all for the discussion. They can just do it in their own time, you know? So I don't, it's not really a good answer. It's not direct, but that's how we do it today. If that helps. One thing as well in the team meetings that I like to do that I didn't mention is I try to inject fun and business into it. And so, um, this is kind of weird. I'm sharing this. I can't believe this, but we institute dad jokes into my team meetings and we rotate with different team members. Um, it's just a lot of fun. Laughter is contagious and I think laughter is critical to the workplace. Uh, we can't take ourselves too seriously and sometimes we do and, and we get, it just adds additional stress. So I try to keep it light with a little bit of fun and, you know, a simple dad joke that's appropriate, of course, um, can go a long ways to, uh, making sure, you know, someone can smile or laugh or, Oh man, that's a terrible joke. At least it gives them. Something that's uh, you know, somewhat fun in a meeting. So we do that as well

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

I love that when people laugh together, it actually is a bonding experience. So we would do so this global team that I was talking about, it was also a very new team. So there had been a huge merger acquisition and teams were reorged. all over the place. And this was my new team. And so that's why I thought it was important to come together every quarter as a team. And we did, you know, I was like, ah, I icebreakers can go so badly, but I wanted people to get to know each other. And we only had those few touch points. So we actually, we came up, me and my management team came up with, um, this icebreaker where we would pair. Two people together, they would find time to meet on their own. And they would, we all would have three questions. I think it was, what was like something fun or interesting about your childhood? What was your first job? And something else that I can't remember, but they would interview each other, just talk to each other. In pairs, and then the other person, when we were in the larger group, one of the people would present or introduce their partner that they were paired with to the larger group. And so that was just a nice way to do it. People like that. It was pretty low key. And there were some funny ones where someone's first job was like a maggot farmer and was

matt-hartman-_2_08-16-2024_121641:

Wow,

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

like, how did you get that job? Well, remember that about you. And someone else said, Oh, I grew up. You know, I was born here, but I grew up there and someone else, you know, slack that person later and was like, wait a minute. Like my grandma lives like 20 minutes from you that it does. So it's just these little connection points, but there were some, there were some, uh, there are some fun ones in there. What else was I going to say? Um, laughter. Um, Oh, Oh, there was also this sense of. We're, we're in this together and we have each other's back. And during the team meeting, we would always share, here's something I

matt-hartman-_2_08-16-2024_121641:

oh, okay, that's fun.

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

something I messed up with the client. Don't do this, please. Really brought people like, Oh, I've been there. Don't worry. Or here's what I do when I make that mistake. And it helps with that.

matt-hartman-_2_08-16-2024_121641:

Oh, that's a good one. I like that That's you know, because I think we can all learn from failure and mistakes as long as we're okay with that, right? It's sometimes it takes vulnerability when you share. Hey, I screwed up Not a lot of people like sharing that right but it is Uh, you know, when you have a sense of, uh, of a tight group like that and sharing that you are okay with exposing that, you know, hey, I messed up on this. That it does create a bonding experience because it allows people to go. Oh, yeah I'm that's a good opportunity to take a note. Okay. I'm not gonna do this next time We're gonna learn from that situation. That's a good idea. I like that Oh,

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

that was Felicia's idea too. So Felicia gets credit and we designed it for, I would go first cause I was the leader of that group. And then the next round would be at the manager level. So people could hear, Oh, my manager is talking about they misstepped on and how they corrected that. Okay. That gives me. You know, a little bit of wiggle room and freedom to say, okay, here's, here's what I did, but it actually got to be funny because it was like, all right, so Caitlin's up for this, this round of what did you mess up this week or whatever? And people would just have fun with it and, and, uh, and have a laugh. So yeah, love that. But I think it's important to have that bonding. Experience and creating that environment. Like you said, as much as possible, because we're remote and we're all over the world, but you can still do that and be a cohesive team, Matt, you've dropped some amazing knowledge and insights. You seem like a very thoughtful and growth oriented person. So I'm wondering as you sit there in your dual role as chief of staff and your head of your service team, what are you thinking about next? What are you trying to get better at for yourself or for your team? Kind of the next step forward in

matt-hartman-_2_08-16-2024_121641:

that's a good question, um, so a little bit of walking backwards Um when I first started in in my career, I noticed that empathy was not a strength of mine It was not an area of Um, something I was very good at, uh, and it's just who I am. And as I've progressed in my career, my focus has been more about how to be, how do I embrace empathy more? How do I embrace it? If it's not who I am naturally, um, what do I do to, what do I need to do to be authentic as I am, am, am empathetic. So I think for, as I continue to grow in my, in my career, um, I'm trying to lean in heavy into that area specifically. So as I think ahead for me. Um, is trying to be much more sensitive to the different, different people and interactions and cultures and things around me. And it's allowed me to be, people are surprised when they hear that about me because, uh, generally they relate empathy to me for some reason. But when I share with them, that's actually a weakness. So if I have a personality test, uh, they will see that empathy is one of my lowest scoring areas. And so I want to make sure as I continue to grow in my career is to never forget that that is a weakness and that I need to make be sensitive always to that. Because in today's world and the way that we work in corporate, uh, in the corporate manner is you have to be empathetic. If you are not empathetic today to the different variances and what people are facing, um, You are not going to be successful. You just, you can't, as a leader, you cannot be successful without having a strong amount of empathy. So that's number one, number two. Is how can I continue to grow wider and bigger? So in chief of staff, you kind of play a, you're not a master of one, but you're a master of many. And so you've got to learn a lot of different things and that gets hard sometimes because you know, little bits of this and that, but you don't know a lot. And so being ahead in the future is an area where it's a struggle for chiefs of staff because you have to do all these little bits and pieces here and there. I wouldn't, I, where I want to focus specifically is like AI, where's that going in technology, how can I learn more about that and why are we using all the services and tools and products and so forth with AI, why is it a big deal and why does it matter? So I think. Empathy, continue doing that because I think that's going to be transferable no matter what. And I think today without having strong empathy, you're just not going to be a successful leader no matter what. Uh, and two, if I have understanding on AI and where that's going and how that intersects where I work and what I do and have been doing for my career, that's important. And then the last thing is I, I say, I state this very clearly when I say it is. I want to give back more than I've ever have. So in my career, I, my parents and my background, I, they were not in it, and I'm in it. And everything that I've had to learn in my career has been other people that have taken the time and invested in me and showed me things to, you know, gets me where I'm at. And I find my greatest reward is paying that forward. And so as I think about the future, maybe continuing helping others, investing in them, I have numerous mentees and others that I like helping, but I find that I learned so much from those interactions. From their perspective that helped me grow as a person Um that it just is it kind of fills my cup more with okay. How do I give back more? How do I help others, you know navigate situations that I face because like you like you just mentioned emily I've got a lot of mistakes and i'm not afraid to say all right Don't do that because I tried that and it failed and here's what happened. Here's do this And, you know, I don't get a laugh at myself too much, but when I have those, I get a laugh about it. But when the moment happened, I wasn't laughing too much. Right. So I think those are probably the things, empathy, AI, and keep investing and sharing my knowledge with others. I think those are the main things that motivate me going forward. And we'll see what happens with that. I think that'll, I think that'll satisfy me going forward.

emily-sander_1_08-16-2024_100754:

I think those three are a beautiful spot to end on because people can hear those three and feel good about feel good about what they can do with that. I think the last piece giving it's it's addicting right when you give and then. The how the world works is when you give, you get more back and then you want to give again and you get more back. And that's just how that cycle goes. So I love all three of yours, but especially the one that you ended with. So paying it forward and giving and giving back. So Matt, thank you so much for being on. This has been a really useful and interesting and dynamic conversation and I could talk to you all day, so maybe you'll be back for more, but I'm sure that our listeners got a lot of value out of

matt-hartman-_2_08-16-2024_121641:

Thank you, Emily, for having me. Glad to share.