Leveraging Leadership

How a Chief of Staff Role Can Boost Your Career Big Time

• Emily Sander • Season 1 • Episode 155

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Melissa Schmidiger shares her journey from working at McKinsey & Company to becoming Chief of Staff at Ayala Land. She highlights the importance of building relationships, understanding one's career goals, and being authentic, which ultimately helped her move into roles like CMO and regional head positions. Melissa now helps high-achieving women through career coaching, focusing on building resilience during significant life transitions.

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Who Am I?

If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want. 


Time Stamps:

00:00 Introduction to Melissa Schmidiger
00:52 Melissa's Career Before Chief of Staff
01:42 Transition to Ayala Land
02:25 Becoming Chief of Staff
03:13 Role and Responsibilities as Chief of Staff
03:45 Communication Challenges and Solutions
05:15 Learning and Growth in the Role
09:17 Strategic Contributions and Board Governance
13:40 Post Chief of Staff: Marketing and Beyond
17:07 Global Roles and Achievements
31:00 Career Coaching and Empowering Women
33:24 Conclusion and Contact Information

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

our guest today is Melissa Schmidiger, and she is going to talk to us about how the chief of staff role can be a strategic role in your career. And if you partner with the right principal and with the right company, it can be this catalyst that opens up a whole bunch of different roles that you can progress in, in your career, because she has experienced that herself. So Melissa, welcome to the show.

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

Thanks very much, Emily. Glad to be here.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

So to To start out, can you take us back to what you were doing right before you became, uh, acting chief of staff

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

So I was working I was working in McKinsey Company, um, for about two and a half, for about three years. after I decided that this was not for me, I was working in the Philippines, actually. I had set up, uh, I was one of the few, uh, that were recruited to set up the Southeast Asia office. And I was based in the Philippines, and I had worked there for about three years. And then I thought, Hmm, maybe I should try to do something differently. I took a one year sabbatical and I was doing consulting for myself. I worked with the groups like World Wildlife Fund Philippines. And then I got a call from, um, the CEO of that company, Ayala land. And he, he had been my managing director in McKinsey. And he said, we have quite a few openings in Ayala land. Would you like to interview? And I thought, okay, why not? know, I had missed working in corporate and I found myself in, uh, a marketing as a head of marketing for the, uh, head of marketing for the commercial centers. I was also asked to take on a concurrent role for, uh, customer knowledge, which was for the entire company to have basically insights role and then seven months into that role. I was asked to become chief of staff

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

and what precipitated that, that move?

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

He had become, um, the CEO of Ayala Land, um, taking on that role, um, after 25 years of another CEO. So he was the first CEO, um, after a long standing CEO. So he had brought in a breath of fresh air, but he was a very different kind of CEO, management style. And therefore the people who were working with him. Uh, we're very found him found his style to be very foreign and needed some translation for what he required. and I had been, I think I was probably one of the few people who had ever worked for him. And they asked me to come translate what he meant because he had coming from McKinsey. I, I, I'm sure he brought on some jargon and he had different expectations. and so having worked with him for three years before, I knew what he meant. I knew how he spoke and I could crystallize his ideas into execution. And that's what I did.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

Okay. So, and just to be clear, it wasn't like a language barrier. It was, you know, you're talking in this world and from this perspective, and it's not resonating or not landing or being understood by his team at the time.

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

definitely not a language barrier. I mean, we all spoke in the same language. But, you know, I think what's, what's very different is when you, it's not just about consultant speak. It's about the, know, basically dropping in from one industry into another. Right. And, you know, uh, also, you know, he had never worked in, uh, estate development and neither did I, but I had worked before in operations. So I knew what operations speak looked like. And I knew what, uh, what needed to get, how, how, how to translate what needed to be done. And he had come from a world where you spoke in terms of ideas and you communicated in terms of pictures and charts. And in a world of ideas to a world of action, there's a big, big world of difference in between. So you need somebody to kind of So he liked to talk ideas out and wanted to get people on board and communicate what they thought they wanted direction. So that's a very big gap in between. So

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

That is a big,

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

yeah. So my job was really to make sure that, you know, they understood each other. Um,

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

and how did you, how did you do that? Is there an example of something where it's like, all right. Is it literally, is it literally what he meant to say or what he means by that is, or was there some other method that you, that you did?

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

yeah, I would, uh, literally I would be in the same room and I would, I would say, you know, nobody needs to take notes anymore. Please don't take notes. Just listen to what he says. I will summarize before the end of the meeting. And I will say, this is the one chart that needs to be had by everybody. By the end of the meeting, just, just listen and participate. I'll take notes. this is the summary. And I would nail it every time because he would process while speaking. And if everybody was busy taking notes, they wouldn't be able to like contribute to the ideas. And just by. Just by telling people that he wanted you to participate the idea generation instead of taking notes that contributed to more people understanding what needed to be done. Right. So that that was that was value add just by that. Right.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

So he was a verbal processor and he liked to talk out ideas and everyone was sitting there with like their notepads thinking, okay, this is directives. These are directives that I have to go do. And so making that switch of he wants to engage in a group discussion and he's actually asking for your feedback and input and. And then of course, you know, sometime toward the end of the process, they'll, they'll we'll be all right, here are next steps. But that happens later. It sounds like.

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

And therefore my value add to say, these are the next steps and you need to be present when input is required. And so then they're able to like put their hand up and provide input because their, their knowledge was, value add was to provide input because they've been in the business for 25 years. And all he's doing is asking the questions because someone had to ask the questions. And he's opening it up for everybody's larger thinking, which is great. And that's when real great ideas started. And then people got on board and really, you know, beautiful plans happened together and the collective wisdom really happened. that was really important. The second thing was ensuring that everybody's Needs were on a day's agenda. So if, if I saw meetings were happening the next, uh, that, that next day, I would make sure that I understood what was specifically on the agenda, uh, that before that meeting, So that I could prepare whoever was going to be in the meeting for potential questions. So every meeting was properly prepared for

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

And just out of curiosity, it sounds, sounded like you worked with the team members on understanding the CEO's approach and point of view. Did you have discussions or, you know, executive coaching with the CEO on, Hey, here's how people are hearing you. So I'm going to help translate, but here are some things you can do to make yourself You know, better understood.

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

I would feed back to him what, as well, this is where at the end of the day, this is where, you know, you also need to be more clear, right? At the end of the day, we'd have a debrief at the end of every day. I'd say, okay, this is where, you know, things kind of got a little bit murky. This is where we need to be clear. This is, this is the meeting that should happen after these are the emails that need to be written to clarify, you know, so we had this kind of debrief as well. Okay. So

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

Gotcha.

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

both translation bit was quite, quite heavy lifting.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

Yeah. Two way street and pretty, pretty consistent. It sounds like, but all right. So, so you certainly learned the translator role and that was a big aspect you took away from your time as chief of staff, what other skills or traits or things that you really learned hands on in that role that, that worked in your favor to catapult you to. Two different things.

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

I think for me, there were two other things that were important, right? Because by, by doing that, I got a really good lay of the land of what happened at the board level, because I was in all the board meetings, I helped with all the board prep. So I got a very good sense of what board governance looked like because we also drove it from our, from our seat. Right. Um, and the third bit was also. also asked, what, what skills did I want to learn? Because with understanding that the chief of staff role is not a permanent role. This is just part of my career, but not my end goal. So, given that I saw how the workings of the chief of president, the president, you know, the chief of staff, you know, I had inner workings. Um, if I had a choice of what I could learn. What role would I want to learn? I said, well, you know, I know marketing, I know, I know design, but what I don't know is, and where I would like to get a bit stronger is I'd like to, you know, have any, I'd like to get some knowledge on deal making and finance and could I get, could I get some exposure to that? so, so I did. Right. So there was a, uh, a big JV being crafted. So I got the, I got on the team and I don't think, I think that's very rare that you can get exposure to such, uh, you know, incredible projects. Right. Um, That, that strengthen your portfolio at the same time, there were a project that I love to do. So there was a brand architecture project that I was driving because I like branding, right? So I was on top of the, brand architecture project for the whole firm, right, together with the branding experts, but that was something that I love to do. That was my passion. It's not just about feeding what, what you're good at. You also need to be testing the things that you're not so good at with. People who can strengthen you. And that's why I asked for this stuff on finance. Um, so I was using, I was using my time at chief of staff to also, you know, my portfolio.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

Yeah. So it sounds like you were a translator, you were involved in strategic decisions and board governance. You certainly could read rooms and put pieces together. And then you, you strategically and intentionally said, all right, here's some things that I'm good at and I can contribute right now, but here are some things that. I maybe don't know so much about, but I would like to learn more. And your boss gave you the opportunity to go into those types of roles, which just filled out your, your skillset. So I think that's fantastic. And I think that is one of the great things about the chief of staff role is. You know, not every principal is going to have that opportunity for their chiefs of staff, but some are, and those opportunities are fantastic. You know, you're learning, you're contributing. And, uh, I think that that speaks to the trust that he had in you, um, and also him as leader.

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

Absolutely. I think, you know, he's absolutely one of my favorite bosses, you know, just because he's always had his eye out for how am I supposed to develop? I mean, Jim Ayala has always been this kind of boss who really thinks about. Who you are as a person, how can you grow and what direction of travel do you need to go to get there? So I think that's very special. You don't normally get somebody who's quite unselfish in helping somebody grow. And, uh, this is one of those roles, you know, like it could have gone the other way, it could have become, uh, a role where you're just managing a calendar. And it certainly wasn't.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

No, certainly not. So where did this role take you? What happened after your chief of staff role?

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

So after the Chief of Staff role, um, the reason I left the Chief of Staff role, and that's shocking because of all the things I got to do. Um, part of it was, uh, during, during my tenure there, there was, we were also reorganizing. There was also reorganizations happening in the company, one of which was in the residential business group. It was a massive reshuffle and the new head of residential business. Um, and this, this incorporate, this included, um, three different brands, uh, ultra high luxury, um, uh, economic and mid segment. asked me to head up marketing. For the ultra high luxury. So I became, it then became a CMO role. So I was like, Oh, nice. This is what I love to do. Right. So that became, a head of marketing role and it became my first step into something, uh, you know, leading a team of six or seven, and that was quite a, a nice jump from chief of staff. And after that, uh, I was also given increasing responsibility into head of business. So this is where I say like chief of staff can really catapult you different things because after that I got increasing responsibilities in Ayala and soon after, not soon after, but I spent quite a good number of years in Ayala. And then after that, I found myself in Singapore where I was also, uh, I was a regional head, um, for insights. And then, now I'm in Switzerland and I'm a global head, uh, I was a global head of insights and I'm now the global head of employer brand. So it's really taken me and taken me further, right? Because I don't think if I did not have that pivotal role in chief of staff, where I learned my stakeholder management skills, where I learned to read a room and where I learned all these necessary skills of like, um, Finance and the brand architecture and working across the company, up and down managing. I don't think I would have come quite this far. I don't think

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

And just out of curiosity. So you went from chief of staff to the CMO role and. If you hadn't been Chief of Staff, would you have been able to work your way up to CMO, or would that have been impossible in the situation you were in?

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

it would have happened quite as fast. I think it would probably, I think, I was recruited for a deputy head of the malls and then I might have had to stay there for a longer time and then waited for that role to vacate and then I maybe to move to residential, it would probably take in years, but this is like a catapult this, into this very prime role. So I was quite,

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

So it accelerated it.

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

Yeah, it was an

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

Yeah. Okay, interesting. And then so, um, I know you're in Switzerland, and you've led large teams. Can you talk a little bit about the roles you've had since? You mentioned kind of the trajectory and listing those out, but what types of, uh, types of things were you doing in those roles?

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

So in Singapore, I led a team of, um, insight professionals and, uh, that we, and we covered, um, Australia, Singapore, Indonesia, and the Philippines. And we grew, uh, consumer insight panels from like, I think we started off with 500 people in one insight panel. Insight panel is basically, you know, you ask people to answer questions and we were developing apps based on their answers. And by the time I left, we had 40, 000 people on them and we were selling, and we were, At some, and we were also merging the answers together with location data. And, uh, we were able to like, you know, it was quite cool. And we were building, uh, award winning apps based on, the information we were getting, we would get answers back within a day. It was, it was very, very cool.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

Wow.

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

Um, and, uh, then Switzerland found me, I was headhunted for a role in Credit Swiss, uh, and then I became the global head of research and insights over there. And we were serving, um, all our, uh, all the research and insights needs of Credit Suisse, so it was a global role, um, and, uh, so this is the Americas, Europe, Switzerland, uh, Latin America, and was really interesting too. So, because we would create reports, for example, like how, um, how women were, how women were under bank or, or, or not using financial products and, and this would impact how the, the bank would, would create new products for, for women in other parts of the world, we would also during COVID, when people could not go to conferences, then we'd use research to start tapping into, um, into our clients and, and bring them into and to serve them better. So we were, it was quite, uh, it was quite fascinating. And then I moved to employer brand marketing and then that was also a global team. So, so that was,

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

So lots of.

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

lots of interesting things to go to do.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

Yeah. Exciting. Amazing. Kind of global. You know, I, I like how you said, then Switzerland found me and I moved over here to this part of the world. Um, and as you look back, so retroactively now you can look back at the chief of staff role and say, wow, gosh, that was a catapult in my career. If. Yeah. Yeah. If someone is in a chief of staff role today and they're saying, okay, I do want to leverage this role and I want to squeeze as much learning and experience out of it as possible. What are some things, I mean, you raised your hand for things. You said, Hey, I want to learn more about this. Can I get an opportunity over here? You got that. Is there anything else that you would say to people in that position of here's how you really get the most out of that role?

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

I think there were three things that, that I did that I I did to leverage the role. One was, I really got to know the management team. I spent time with them, right? With each one. There were some that I think I got, got to know better than others. And that's where my next job opportunity came. Right.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

Yeah. Yeah.

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

you have to get to know them because in order to help them with your principal, you need to get to know what's on their mind, what they need, how, you know, what their problems are. Right. So, um, unless you understand that and understand what, what they need personally, um, not going to be able to make that connection between them and the principal. Right. So you do need to invest the time. Right. Um, um, um, I think you really need to start to know yourself and what you want to get out of your career. Right. Right. Because the chief of staff. a great role but unless. You have to know, is this the career you want or is this part of your long term plan, right? And for me early on, I knew this was not my end goal, but it was part of my plan, right? And so Jim always said, what else do you want? And he goes, and so I said, Oh, you know, I want to learn these things. And he goes, learn as much as you want, because you're not going to, and then he said, Also, Help me find your successor, because this is, this is also part of your, part of your plan. So, that's why I said you have to know yourself, right? So, you have to craft the role for yourself, but craft it so that you, you will have a successor.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

And how did you. Yeah. I mean, and how did you do that? Were you literally hiring your backfill as, as you were knowing that you were going to move on? Or was it just structuring the role so someone could more easily step into that role?

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

I think it's both, It's, it's always, and also preparing your principle mentally that you're not going to be there forever.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

Yes.

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

That's an

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

Yeah.

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

that's also an emotional preparation for him, Like, so you know that I'm moving, right? You know, you know. So, in fact, I think, if I remember right, Jim found my successor because he knew. that I'd have to go to the next role. So he, he was also on the lookout. So if he knows that if he, if your principal knows that you're leaving, he's also going to do what's best for you.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you had a great boss. I mean, I mean, you said so many important things because I think, yeah, like don't blindside your boss and be transparent and hopefully you have the type of relationship where you can't have those conversations like, Hey, look, in my overall career, I'm looking to do this, this, and this, of course I'm going to do. The best job possible as chief of staff. And of course I'm going to do right by you in the company. Um, but it's also being clear on, on what you want to get out of it. And I think good bosses know that, and they don't see that as, Oh no, she might be leaving. It's, you know, look, we're going to, we're lucky to have her now. We're certainly going to stretch her and put her in different, in different areas to learn. But you know, when I was managing people. If I knew what their ultimate goal was, and I could put them in different positions or projects or initiatives that were for the company's benefit as well that align with the company objectives, but also with their ultimate objective. Oh my goodness. That was the golden path because they loved it. Most out of them. Um, and then I think a really important thing I wanted to highlight is you mentioned the relationships you built with the executive team. And of course, that's a huge part of being chief of staff. So in any chief of staff role, that's a critical component. But, but you said that way you got your next job was through one of those connections. So I just wanted to highlight it. It's good to do no matter what, if you're chief of staff, but also building those relationships, you never know what door that's going to open. So I think. That's an important part to key in on to

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

Yeah. Because I think part of it too, is you're building the relationships authentically, right? You're not doing it with an end in mind, like, Oh, I want to get a next job. I mean, I was really doing it because I needed to create success my principal. Now, I guess, We were successful. They saw my potential, right? It wasn't because I was being, you know, manipulative at all. That was not it,

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

right. No, no, no,

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

you know, because I think part of this too is if people believe that you are doing the best you can for the principal and for the company, they're going to say, Hey, like what I see. And that let me create a path for that person. I think that's what, you know, you have to have integrity in what you're doing. Right. And I think that's what, uh, what success should look like. Right.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

no. Agreed. And I think, you know, building those relationships, it should be authentic and natural and I can look back on people, you know, I've, I've made lifelong friends from, you know, one or two people from each place that I've worked and. I mean, I would do anything for them. I would, of course, if, if, if they need an introduction or if they are looking for a transition in their career, of course, I'm going to help them. It's a very natural thing as a friend. And those are the kinds of things you build where, Oh, of course, you know, as you're kind of moving on or you're, you're taking the next step in your career, of course, I'm going to be rooting for you and helping you in any way I can. So I think building those types of relationships, um, is, is really important. Is part of it too. And an important part of any role that you're in.

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

I think the, the third thing, because I mentioned about building the relationship and number two, it's also really like, you know, knowing, knowing who you are, and I think the third thing is really also, Making sure that making sure that when you're when you're there, do not lose yourself in the role,

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

Yeah,

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

right? it is a role. But it is not you,

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

yes, correct.

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

right? And so, what, why I say that is because you, it can feel so important, right? Because it is, you know, you know, Chief of Staff. You're Chief of Staff. makes time for you. But that's just a role, right? Um, that, that's not you.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

It's, it's an important distinction, right? I mean, I think with any role, especially chief of staff or high level senior executives, it's very easy to make that your identity. And that can, that can be tricky. That's a slippery slope. So I think that's important to say, Hey, uh, I hold an important role with a lot of responsibility and influence. And I take that seriously, but I know that who I am as a person is independent from that. I want to bring myself to that role. And I, I'm, of course, I'm, I'm. Part of that, it exudes out of me, but it's, uh, it's separate. I've, I've experienced that myself with a few roles, and I've certainly seen it with clients and colleagues where they're so tied to their role and it is who they are and any shift left or right, up or down, or any threat to that is just, uh, it's, it makes them go into survival mode. Um, so. So I think that is a really important distinction for people to have. I always, I always try to say, look, I take the work very seriously. Like we're doing important work and I'm, I'm dealing with people's livelihoods as chief of staff, but I'm trying, you know, I, I know who I am as Emily Sander, and I know who I am outside of these four walls outside of the office with my friends and family and different things I do in community groups and things like this. And, and so it helps to keep it all in perspective.

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

yeah. Because I think it's, it's important, right? Because, you know, People make time for you. They, they create the, they create space, you know, all of these things. End of the day, it's because of the role. If it weren't, if it's, if it weren't me, it'd be for the next guy. You know, so I think it's important to kind of keep that in check. And then, it, then it's a healthy way to kind of function. Actually,

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

Yeah, I think that's right. And I think, you know, when people treat you a certain way, especially over a long period of time, it starts to seep in, right? You start to believe, Oh, maybe I, maybe I am that important. Um, I was speaking with a client and he was in a chief of staff role and it was the first chief of staff for the company. And. And part of our conversations, he wanted to make sure that that role was set up for the next person and the next person after that. So whoever filled that role after him, he wanted to create the office of chief of staff. So that position, that office in a way that was set up well. And I thought that was, um, very forward thinking and very, uh, very generous of him to be thinking about, of course I want to do well. And of course I want to carve Transcribed My version of chief of staff, he's, he was also building that role for the company ongoing. So Melissa, you know, you've taken us on your career trajectory. Um, and I'm curious, what are you, what are you up to now? High

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

Ah, so now, good question, uh, I am now, uh, I am now a career coach. I support high achieving women who want to, um, advance in their careers and build, uh, resilience in their daily lives, um, and have sustained success because, uh, I, I noticed when I was in a lot of, uh, my regional global roles, there are sadly not so many of us. I want to have more women around me, uh, building long in their careers, no matter how they define success. I want to help, uh, with female leaders do that.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

achieving women. And is there, are there certain, um, stages in someone's career or certain pivot points that you, you come in and help with in particular?

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

That's interesting. I, like right now, um, I'm working with a few women who are, you know, they've, they've, they've just, um, have, they've just gotten to the point where they have had, their promotions or increased responsibilities. And, um, it's interesting whenever somebody increases in capacity, that's also when other things are happening, nothing ever happens in isolation. Right. So one has just had their second child. One is just God is just about to get married. The other is just moved countries. Nothing just happens. You know, one monadically or in isolation, everything happens all at once. And I think that's why I kind of put in resilience as well, because You know, you need to build capacity to handle right and to build that you need the, the tools to handle things and take things in stride because you never know when things are going to happen for you, nothing to you, but for you, so you're able to have to create that, uh, create the capacity and handle life and what it, what it gives you. So, I think for anyone who goes through a big transition, I think that's. And I know I've been through quite a few, as I've said, you know, I'm moving to Singapore, Switzerland, taking, moving from one industry to the other. I know how to do that.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

Yes, you do. So if anyone is, is interested in that piece, what's the best place to, to reach out to you or find out more information about your programs?

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

You can, you can reach me through LinkedIn. Uh, I'll be also, my website will be up, uh, fairly soon, but right now I'm on LinkedIn or on my email, Melissa Schmidiger, uh, melissa. schmidiger at gmail. com.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

And can you smell, uh, can you spell, spell your last name, please?

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

Oh, that's a long one. Schmidiger. S C H M I D I G E R.

emily-sander_1_06-27-2024_080229:

And we will have that in the show notes, but Melissa, thank you so much for being on. It was a pleasure. Thank you.

melissa-schmidiger_1_06-27-2024_170228:

Thank you very much.