Leveraging Leadership

Preventing and Managing Corporate Crises with FBI Negotiator and PR Comms Expert

• Emily Sander • Season 1 • Episode 179

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Adele Gambardella and Chip Massey share lessons from handling high-stakes PR crises and FBI negotiations, like responding quickly during a company scandal or the early hours of 9/11. They explain why companies need crisis plans ready before disaster hits, how to keep leaders calm when their reputations are on the line, and why apologizing the right way matters. They also talk about building trust fast, having clear personal and company values, and why waiting for trouble to blow over almost never works.

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Who Am I?

If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want. 

 

Time Stamps:

01:06 Adele's Crisis Management Journey
03:53 Founding the Convincing Company
07:42 The First 48 Hours of a Crisis
13:08 De-escalation Techniques in Crisis Management
23:31 Crisis Communications and Personal Branding
28:47 The Art of Apologizing
30:34 Practical Tips for Crisis Communication
32:07 Understanding Public Perception
34:38 Navigating Political Stands as Executives
37:31 The Role of CEOs in Crisis Situations
38:50 Common Misconceptions in Crisis Management
39:30 Why We Love Crisis Management
43:28 How to Reach Out for Help

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

My guests today are Adele Gambardella and Chip Massey. Adele has led crisis PR campaigns for Fortune 100 companies and a former U. S. president, and she's taught crisis communication classes at top universities. Chip is a former FBI hostage negotiator and spent 22 years as a special agent and was involved in investigating the 9 11 terrorist attacks. Together, they have co founded the Convincing Company, blending PR and crisis negotiation to offer consulting and training to tech startups and fortune 500 companies. And I'm assuming everything in between Adele and Chip, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Thank you for having us.

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Thank you.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

By way of background, just for context, Adele, can you kind of tell us when you first realized you were good in a crisis and how that translated into PR?

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Let's actually get a parallel to Chip's, um, experience, which I was in New York City for 9 11. And, um, I was working in an office building and, um, 9 11 happened. And instead of being, um, freaked out like other people were, I got eerily calm, you know, I, I calmed people down around me. Um, and, and that was really, um, the genesis of it. And, and I realized, I'm like, I'm really good in a crisis. And I, you know, I grew up in a pretty, my family's a little crazy. So, I mean, I think having that experience was like, probably set me up to be really good.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

That's awesome. That's awesome. And Chip, I'm like genuinely curious about your journey. How does one go from a Methodist minister to an FBI hostage negotiator? And what are some like unexpected skills that helped you from one to the other?

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Well, you know, I always had an interest in long term investigations. I think the, the movie Mississippi burning, which predates you, Emily, and most of your audience, but the, uh, the, the up there was that the, uh, the FBI was called in to go against the Klan. And I just thought that was remarkable that there was a government entity that was actually out there. working for good and kind of, you know, started being interested at that point. Um, so, uh, but I didn't, you know, I, I didn't connect all that until later on in life when, um, uh, after college, I went to seminary and I became a, a Methodist minister for six and a half years. And, uh, in there, what I learned was I really liked helping people every day, but there were so many other little things that weren't as. enticing for me. I need a little bit more excitement. So that's when I applied to the FBI. And what I found my journey there, Emily, was that Um, you know, the idea of working in a crisis. I, you know, I spent a lot of time helping families and so forth work through their own individual and family crisis. And I, and I got a lot of enjoyment in terms of that. I could help people. You know, it meant a lot. It was a lot of deep satisfaction. Same to in the bureau. And I, and I found that the skill set when I became a hostage negotiator, there was a lot of complimentary free. Uh, skills within that from the ministry as well. So it all kind of work together.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Beautiful. And what I'm hearing, I'm kind of sensing like a mission impossible meets mad men situation. So I'm wondering like, how did you two come together to co found the convincing company? Did one of you have to like negotiate with the other to do that? Was that like a strategic collaboration? How did that go?

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

I would say I had to negotiate a little bit because, um, no, Chip might say no, but, um, essentially we met at an entrepreneurial dinner. Um, I said what I did and then we went around the table and then Chip said what he did. And I was like, well, this could be really interesting. And, um, it could be interesting combination. And I had been doing crisis management at that point for about 15 years. And one of the things I noticed was it was, it was. Very hard to get executives in crisis situations to do what it is you want them and need them desperately to do very quickly. And I thought, wow, the skillset of somebody who, is a hostage negotiator. What an amazing compliment that would be to people, um, who are in corporate roles, who, whose reputation is on the line, whose company's revenue and, um, you know, could be on the line. And. What a better person than somebody who used to be a hostage negotiator to go in and to get them to do what is needed and do that quickly, um, while being calm. What I will tell you is, I think one of the things that is a really nice compliment of Chip and I is, I figure things out. Super quickly. So like within like, you know, 15 minutes of a conversation with like a CEO or a team, I know what the first like five steps are, how we can respond in under four minutes to a crisis situation. And, and that's any crisis situation. while and, and while I could tell somebody, Hey, these are the things, these are the exact steps. I know that work that I've used hundreds of times in crises. They're so emotionally attached to being attacked, how unfair something is that it doesn't matter that even though logically what I'm saying is exactly what they should do. Someone like Chip to come in and, um, use his skillset and I'll let him talk about what that is to help the executive make the decision, move along, go along quickly with what we need them to do something that no other. PR firm or crisis management firm has at their disposal. So I'm, I'm, I think that's just a really unique differentiator for us. So Chip, like, what do you do? Right. Like one of those things.

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

exactly. It is like Adele pointed out, Emily, is that the, you know, FBI is kind of set up to be a crisis work agency. It's kind of our main thing. And so whether it's investigating cases, responding to mass events, there's an element of crisis in every one of those. And, You know, they say you rise to the occasion, but you fall back on your training, and that's kind of where we see a lot of these companies is that is that they're great at what they do their day to day and handling the little bumps. But when it gets to the Adele level of you know, your professional reputations on the line here, your company is in, you know, could go in serious decline. You know, a lot of bad things can happen. What we see in in that sense sometimes is that people can get locked up. They can, you know, they don't know how to handle this kind of new environment that they're in. And that's where, you know, we do this idea of what forensic listening is getting to somebody's unstated narrative and then moving them to a course of action that Adele prescribes. But it does take a little bit of a mind shift.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Yeah. So I'm going to unpack that a little bit. So Adele, what is the golden rule for the first 48 hours when an executive has this reputational crisis and it's like, make or break, like whatever you do in the next 48 hours is going to make or break you.

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Yeah. So, I mean, you know, I would say, and I think it's so interesting, Emily, that you say 48 hours, right? Because you really don't have that much time, even probably now. 48 hours feels like an eternity when a crisis is happening because people fill that in. They fill in, um, you know, if you don't provide some kind of statement or holding statement or ways in which you're going to address an issue, People play Mad Libs with your, with your brand, right? That's that like game where you go adverbial and then they'll just throw things. I mean, and you see this happen in some of the most high profile situations out there. Like, you know, the whole Blake Lively, um, scandal that, that happened with her, that ends with us. Um, you know, movie within like, You know, I would say a couple of hours of that story breaking, you had people on social media is like, this is what I think actually happened. And I think is at fault. And, and so you've got commenters. influencers who are already going to be on your brain the minute the story breaks. So you've only got like really a couple of hours to respond. So every company, every individual who thinks they could be at risk or at target, which is probably more so now than ever before, um, should have a statement that says, you know, we're working on it. Here's where we're going to get back to with a response. Give people a date and time when you're going to give them a response, but you have to at least at minimum give them something or people will fill it in.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

So at a minimum,

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

in.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

like acknowledge this thing is happening and we're working on it. And then would you say there's a point where you have to start creating the narrative or someone else is going to fill that in. But even if you don't have that fully baked, like we know it's going to be in this general direction. Let's start. Building that narrative, is that in play, or would you say wait? Before we can get this thing locked and loaded and then let's come out with it.

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Uh, you have to have a pretty good idea. And this is where our crisis management training comes in, which is like most organizations can predict with a certain level. Um, you know, of accuracy, what they could be at risk to experience, right? Like, so if an organization comes to us and they say, you know what, we're in the automotive industry, what could possibly go wrong? And we can list. know, 10 to 12 very likely scenarios at which this company would come under scrutiny. And then we would have some kind of plan for them to respond to that level of scrutiny, but you can predict with, with a lot of certainty what those things might be. You might not get it right on the nose, but you'd got, you know, close enough that you'd have a response ready. And see, the problem with most organizations, even the ones who are pretty good at crisis management, they have that are like on a shelf, in a binder, like how 1997. That they pull out and go, wow, we're going to do these things, but you should have a flow chart. You should have a crisis team ready. You should know what your 10 to 12 issues are in advance of it, of something happening. And right now, with the political climate being a bit unstable and a little shaky. issues where you're going to take a stand, what your brand stands for, who, what you're all about and what you would come out and have a position on that people have to have to really decide what those things are now more than ever before.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Yeah. So it sounds like, I mean, there's a big element of this. That's be proactive. Like there's a huge planning process and hopefully you will never have to use these plans, but if you do have to have them, they're right there at the ready. And for some reason we were just rewatching the crown and for each of like the Royal family members, they had like, you know, operation London bridge, which is like the queen dies and everyone knows what to do, which is a very sad occasion. And then I'm also thinking. For like cybersecurity attacks, people have plans. Like there's like code red, code black, like here's our different plans and everyone knows what to do in those situations. So it kind of sounds like this, this fits in with like, if you're going to be prepped for some of these things that that can happen, you need to have these different scenarios and contingency plans built out in advance.

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Yes. And I will give you a perfect example right before COVID hit. One of our clients paid us to do crisis management for them right before COVID. And so they were the infectious disease society of America. Okay. And we ran a number of scenarios and one of those scenarios was a global pandemic.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

No way.

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

we worked out an entire strategy, an entire crisis response, everything. So when the pandemic happened, they were the first organization to respond. They were right up there with the CDC because they had a response. When the CDC didn't, they had all their materials ready to go. So they became the go to source. the pandemic on what people should do around this issue. So it works and it's, it's worth the investment.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Wow. Okay, so let's pretend that someone doesn't do what Adele said and finds themselves in a wholly expletive situation. Chip, you have literally talked people off ledges. So I've figuratively done that a bunch of times, but you have literally just spoken to people and brought them back from the ledge. How do you, what are some Mental frameworks or techniques to deescalate the situation and get to that emotional level to get people calmed down. So they're actually going to listen to what you have to say.

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

And that's the exact right thing. Emily, you've you've pinpointed exactly because you've dealt with this. It is about de escalation because people are those moments. They're not their best selves and they're reacting out of fear. No male executive likes to say that they're dealing with a fear moment. They'll talk about stress all day long, but you bring up the word fear. And I said, no, no, that's not me. three doors down. So, so that's why we use the word stress. And so what we do is that we take a person and we work them through this whole problem. And we, we just don't deal with, um, you know, hey, that this is a horrible thing that you're experiencing. And here's the four things that you've got to do right away. We know that won't work. Here's what will, though, is that as they're going through this, we realize that they're, you know, they're Brain is online. So the analytical brains come off and they're dealing in the primitive state, which means all their, you know, their worst kind of, uh, tendencies are to the forefront. we are in that fear mode, we're, we're pulling back. We're, we're

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Survival.

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

We are, you know, our vision. Our physical vision is actually diminishing. Our hearing diminishes. Our fine motor skills diminish, you know, where are everything is going wrong for us, which is great. If we're in a fight horrible, if we're under attack before our company. So we need to bring that analytical ability. We do that through talking it through. we talk through with the individual is look, this is, this is not the first time that somebody's experienced a crisis. This is not even, doesn't even rise to the top 50. So you're not alone. That's the other thing. And what we do as a resource is we provide that additional backup. You know, we are standing with you. Your whole C suite is standing with you. We are going to get through this together. The human brain responds marvelously to the whole idea of collaboration when it feels it has backup. When it feels that it has support, it then becomes stronger and it it pulls upon the resources that it needs to to push through something. So we, you know, so those are the kind of the preliminary steps we take to get somebody more into a frame of mind. They say it takes about 45 minutes once somebody's triggered. for them to come down to an area where they can feel right that. Okay. And then they can start to hear you. Not that they're going to hear everything, but they can start to hear you. And then you can start to make in rows, but it takes a bit.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Yeah. And just to highlight it, they're, they're literally not in their right mind, because as you mentioned, like their neocortex shuts off and they're in the amygdala. So they're like reptilian brain. How do I survive? And I think we've all felt, you know, when, when we feel trapped. Right. Like back into a corner, we have no option. We like go into fight or flight. So, um, I think part of what you just talked about is you actually have a whole team at the ready around you and you have options, like there will be a way out of this and a way to resolve this. And let's talk through some of those options. Is that the general approach that you're going for?

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Yeah, absolutely. And there's a, there's a trust built into that as well. You know, they're not going to trust us immediately. You know, no one trust the FBI House of Negotiator who's, you know, trying to talk somebody to put a gun down, right? But eventually they will because they'll see the competence of Adele. They'll get a sense of of who and what we are. Those, you know, those things will start to seep in. And when that that layer of trust is built, then, you know, again, there is a confidence that that comes with that. And

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

in that shortened amount of time? Cause I mean, you can build trust over like weeks and months and years, certainly, but if you have to cram it into, you know, an hour, how do you, how do you do that? Possibility, building

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

trust me, you know, from jump. that they see me as somebody they could trust the road so that when they first meet Adele and I, it's, it's like, okay, who are these two? They're sizing us up. They're getting a sense. Okay, what can I say to them? And what, what am I feeling like I can't? And after a while, it's okay. I can see myself trusting them. That's what the brain does. Not instant, but I can see myself, you know, yes,

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Yeah. And the other thing that we find happens a lot, Emily, which is such an interesting thing that occurs when people are in a crisis is this idea of fairness and proportionality. So like people are so focused on. This is so unfair. This is, people are blowing this out of proportion. We've done the right thing for 20 years. We messed up once. The world is, you know, treating your issue like a firestorm. Well, put on your flame retardant vest. Because, you know, you, you have got to deal with what's going on and what's right in front of you. And so a lot of times we'll talk to executives about like, you are going to feel this and you're going to feel it for a while. And you're probably going to, you're not going to come out of this feeling of crisis for about two weeks and then it will break and it will likely happen again. It will erupt again. And so like in the course of a crisis, have these like, you have these spikes or these tiny eruptions of additional crises that are happening within the crisis you're currently, you're currently handling, right? So I think saying those kind of things and like prepping people, a lot of times we find with executives, we say, you know what, you're going to experience a crisis. Here's what's going to happen in two weeks. It's going to feel like it's fixed. And then it's going to blow up again. And like, To, to like a, to a T, we always get this, right? And the client will call us up and like, I thought I was in the clear. I thought nothing was going to happen. And then, right like what you said, it just happens again. And this person came out of nowhere and it's like, no. We knew that was going to happen. We prepared for it as much as we can. But like, these little eruptions will occur. And so just even knowing and predicting what's around the corner builds a level of trust with the executives, um, that they understand like. What, what we say is going to happen is actually going to happen. So some of that has to be built in.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

credibility, and then that's reinforced over time. And you mentioned something interesting. So, and I, by the way, I did buy your book, convince me, which I'd highly recommend I'm about halfway through and it's excellent. So thank you for writing it. Um, but one of the things you talk about in the book is people want to be perceived in a certain way. Like they, like, I mean, everyone's reputation is important to them. And if you can figure out what that is and, and reinforce that, or at least acknowledge that it unlocks a whole bunch. So, I mean, the story that I remember from the book is Chip, you were speaking with, I think it was a leader of like a drug cartel or something who was in prison,

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

right,

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

but as you were speaking to him, you determined he wants to be seen as a savvy business person.

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

right.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

a successful quote unquote business. And once you unlock that, the conversation opened up. So where does that whole element come into play in these conversations?

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Yeah. I, it just like you said, people. Want and and need to see themselves, you know, wherever that best self is, where that they hero image or, you know, something that they admire and strive to. that's part of the unstated narrative with within each of us, right? Is that there are things that we're willing to tell people and things that we're, we're just going to hold back on. like you said, Emily, if you can get close to understanding that person to that degree and figure out. You know, they really see themselves as this or they want to be, you know, the most, um, Uh, you know, expert, uh, business person that helps, uh, you know, mid level companies to do this, it is. But you can generally get close to what that is after spending a little bit of time with somebody and being sincerely interested in them, asking the right questions and, and, you know, showing that you are authentically there and present. will start to reveal who and what they are when they feel again, that, that sense of, okay, I can lower my wall a little bit and talk to you. But when you help them bridge to see that, Hey, your better self is right here. You know, we, I can help you get there. that's huge for, for people that you're willing to extend that, that kind of kindness and, and friendship to them.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Because, I mean, from Adele, what you said, like that's under attack for them. Like, Hey, this isn't fair. Like I've done all this good work and this one little thing is being plucked out and blown out of proportion. And so you're right there next to them saying, we can get you back to, to your storyline here. Can you talk about like, what happens after those, those Initial two weeks or like how you continue to work with people throughout the crisis.

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Yeah, absolutely. So, so one of the things just to go back to what we were talking about with the unstated narrative as tips, like there's, there's tapes running through people's head about how they want to be perceived and how they want the world to perceive them. Right. And one of the things that we crave. As individuals, especially in professional settings is this idea of validation. We all want to be validated and that is like accentuated so much more in a crisis situation because everything who you are, your decisions, everything you've made up until that point, you feel like is under attack. And therefore, if we're talking to them and we're trying to build trust quickly, what we will do is understand. What do they want to be known for? How do they want to be perceived? And we will validate them. It's not manipulation so much as it's like, we understand that you want people to see you like this. We're going to make sure that when we do crisis communications work for you, we do personal branding work for you, that the world starts to see you again in this light, even if they don't see you like that now. And that, that, and being able to understand what that is is so important. so important in these situations. Um, as far as your question with, with regard to like, how do we help people and what is the extent beyond that two weeks? Essentially, you know, crises don't just like happen in like, do happen in a burst and then you have a bunch of residual, um, things that occur as a result of that crisis. So it's not just like the crisis happens. Your, your reputation is like, automatically tarnished. It kind of happens more in like bursts where they go, well, how did you respond to it? Did I like the way you responded to it? Do I feel you have credibility in the way you responded to that issue? Are you somebody I know, like, and trust and can see myself trusting again, even though you made a misstep? Do you take responsibility? For the mistake. How do you take responsibility for the mistake? Is it up front? Um, is it apologetic? Is it here's what we're going to do to fix that problem? And how often do you update people? Because all of that stuff is going to build additional trust. And It has to be built back up over time. It can't be, you know, I, I, I released a video statement and now they should trust me. It's like,

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Yeah.

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

you know, like you kind of have to do a lot more, um, change than change management in order to get people to trust you again.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

What is the difference between if someone's a public figure and they already have like a brand and narrative around them versus you're, you're trying to like introduce this person for the first time and like correct, like course correct something that's happening.

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Yeah. So it's much harder when you have somebody you're introducing. Um, I would say the person who has a brand, it's a little bit easier to manage the crisis because you know what people already kind of perceive them

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Yeah.

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

whereas a person who's being introduced, which I would say, if you're an executive and you don't have a personal brand or a position that is really dangerous in today's world, like all of us, anybody who is a consultant, who's a thought leader, who owns their own business, who has a high position in the company, you should have a personal brand that you're trying. Um, consistently to say, this is who I am. This is what I stand for. These are my values. And people should have a general understanding of what that is before any issue occurs, or could be caught in a really bad situation if you have a reputational hit. So you got to prepare, even if you're an individual.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Cause I'm thinking like the example that popped up was like Kobe Bryant back in the day and he had, you know, his huge scandal, but it was like, it was so shocking cause like, this is Kobe Bryant, like this is, you know? And so that kind of. Was at loggerheads with the built up narrative, which is part of the part of the reason it was so shocking

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

What I think is so fascinating about celebrity things, and I did more celebrity work, um, earlier in my career when I worked on Madison Avenue in New York, I did a lot of, I did a lot of celebrity work. Um, public relations, the first 10 years of my career, um, and it has its moments and it can also be kind of a nightmare. Um, but, um, but one of the things I find just a really fascinating thing is this idea of a pedestal principle. So if you are a celebrity or if you have, um, a brand that already exists, And you focus on this one thing and you say people should know me for this thing because I absolutely believe in it in this way. Um, you're taking a chance because the idea that I can knock you off your pedestal very quickly if you go against that thing, um, is, is something that celebrities really have to weigh, weigh carefully. So like my whole brand, like for instance, I'll give you a for instance. And I don't think people kind of measured this, but like the whole Blake Lively thing we mentioned in the beginning. She has this brand where she's perfect all the time, right? Like perfect Blake Lively

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Very Ryan Reynolds.

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

married to my,

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

model

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

yeah, her, her best friend's Taylor Swift. It's like, like her life is perfect. Seemingly perfect, right? She has a baby and is a size two within two weeks. Like, right? I mean, she, she has a perfect life. soon as that became an issue where it's like, maybe she's not as good as she says, then you saw that narrative take over Hollywood. It's like, here's the following ways at which she's not as perfect as she may have made herself out to be. And then all of a sudden she's totally under attack. Think about that. In an executive context, it's the same. It's like if you say, I'm altruistic in the following five ways, and those five ways could then get questioned. You have much more to, to answer to. So be careful about what position you take, who you say you are, because it can come back to bite you basically in

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

You feel like one one dent in it and the whole thing comes crumbling down so it's like oh that was that was a facade

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

knocked right off. Yeah.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

And can you say more about, you mentioned the, if people are apologetic or not, which is something that like I pay attention to. And the example that came up there was the Prince Andrew scandal and his interview, and I forget the person who interviewed him, but, um, the woman who interviewed him, where he. He just like, was like, I still call him a friend and like, no, I, you know, don't have any problem being associated with Jeffrey Epstein. And I'm like, you're not even sorry for like what have what's happening. And it just came off horribly. And that's kind of the, what sunk him. So I'm wondering, is there, you know, even when the person you're working with might not feel like they did anything wrong per se, is there, is that a conversation or how does that come into play?

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Yeah, that's, that's a difficult conversation and one I've had with a lot of executives. I'm sure some of them, who said they wanted to throw their cell phone in the ocean after I told them they had to apologize, but, um, you know, it's a difficult conversation because a lot of times you have to be fully apologetic. And people don't want to be. And so there is, there is a level of sincerity you have to have with, with the apology. So if you apologize, I used to say, you can't apologize with a caveat. You can't say, I'm sorry, but

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

What?

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

I'm sorry, but he's my best friend. And I still like him, even though the world says he's a horrible person. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, that doesn't work. Right. So you can't apologize with a caveat. It completely takes Everything you said, um, out of, out of, out of question. So. When apologizing, there really is an art to it. Um, and there is a way in which you have to, you have to be sincere or people just won't buy it. Most people will buy it.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Yeah. And as we talk about these conversations, Chip, I mean, some of the great like tactical and practical things in the book, and I would recommend people pick it up just for this, is like the phrases and how you would, um, kind of structure sentences and statements is, are there some. A few tips and tricks you can share here where, okay, if you're in this stage of things, here's the general approach you want to use, or I would stay away from these types of comments. Cause that just exacerbates the situation.

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Right. Anything that, and this is something that Adele drills home all the time is anything that shows defensiveness, you know, that, okay, yes, this thing happened and it was a bad thing, but, you know, it wasn't us. It was actually this and they, they try to take you down a lane as like, that's not how you're being perceived out there. You're being perceived as it's you. You are the company. You are the representation here, and it has to come from you there. Like I said, they'll say there is no caveat. It's here. So you apologize it or you're making these statements, make sure that it is defense free. that is, you know, you are completely taking responsibility for it. You're not going to blame a number two. You're not going to blame the weather. This is you. And that's really what people resonate with, right? It makes, it makes us trust you more if you're willing to say, yeah, you know, I got to own this, you know, I am, I am the head here. So it, this does, you know, hit with me that's, and that's huge. So, and the other is, I think it's so very important that the leader be open to hearing. And one of the things that, you know, is that if. If they're too isolated or they've pulled too far back, they really don't have a sense of what is happening on the ground. And one of the things that we urge and must insist on is that they fully understand What is the chatter out there? What is it? The predominant opinion about them and what their actions were or what the perception is. Even if it's wrong, a lot of times it is wrong that's okay. And Adele is very skilled at at helping people get around that and understand, you know, the next step forward. Most of what happens in In these crisis moments, the fix is often counterintuitive. As you, as you know, Emily, and, and it takes a lot of guts to, you know, to say, this is the action, this is the course that we're going to take, even though it feels right? It feels like that's not going to be effective, but that, that takes some, some coaching as well. A lot of nerve there.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

And there was a phrase and I forget the exact context, but at the end it would, you would say, am I close? Which meant like you kind of outlined a scenario and that's an, am I close? Which is like, I think I'm in the right direction, but you tell me, let's have a conversation. You tell me, um, and you open it up that way.

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

That's the leader being open. That's the leader, uh, saying, you know, um, you know, help me understand what I'm missing. Hey, you know, how did we, how did we get here? How did things get so bad? Or, um, yeah. And it's like, it's like part of identifying what somebody is experiencing. Just like you said, uh, if you deal with a person's emotions, Yeah. And it's so critical that we do this because really, that's what we're talking about. Fear, emotion. And when you're dealing with that, the idea here is that, is that you call it out. You say, you know, I'm hearing, um, I'm hearing a sense of, of rejection from you. I, am I right about that? Am I, am I close? And then the person will say, no, it's not rejection. It's just, I feel like I've been abandoned. Okay. Can you, can you help me understand the abandonment? What, what in there can, you know, that is so powerfully resonating with you right now? Can you talk about that?

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Yeah,

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

means a lot to people. It absolutely

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

sure. Yeah. So Adele, I want to go back to something you said towards the beginning of the conversation, which is this political climate we have. And, you know, people are executives, um, fortune 500 leaders are going to find themselves in positions where like they have to take a stand sometimes. Or do we try to stay neutral about things? Uh, It might not be a crisis per se, but you gotta, you gotta know what you stand for and what you're willing to say and not say how, what's your general advice to executives who find themselves in these positions?

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Yeah. I mean, one of the first things you must do is, is understand. is your position? So many companies don't know what what is relevant to you? Like what are, what is that absolute thing that if you did not comment on your customers, your stakeholders, everyone around would be like, why didn't you? Like, why didn't you have a perspective here? Right. So you've got to decide what those issues are. And there's probably only like three core issues that hit that much of a bullseye for an organization. So you've got to figure out what those are. are you relevant? Then once you figure those things out, you've got to have your statements ready. You have to have your positions ready. And, and yes, there's a lot of unpredictability right now that, that everybody is experiencing. But for the most part, Companies can know what is coming down the pike that would impact their stakeholders and they can have a strategy and a plan. It really is just understanding how to see around corners. Data shows this many times. Um, you can look at what happened last time and, you know, and I say last time, I mean in the last administration. When craze that what the last Trump administration, when crises happen, how are companies impacted? Okay. Well, they're impacted this way. When, when did most companies actually win in a situation where they felt like they had to take a stand for either against or for, right? It's a bipartisan situation in that way. most of the times companies won when they had a specific. solution and they stuck to it. It can't be, I believe this, but I'm willing to walk back on that issue when, when, when people, when the rubber meets the road, right? When people go, what do you really feel about that? And they're like, well, you know, there's a lot of gray there and you know, I don't really have a position. It's like, if you're going to come out with a position, you have to take that stand and stand firm. It can't be wishy washy. You can't. Walk it back. And so you have to know what are those make it or break it moments, um, issues, um, situations at which your company is going to get involved. And if you don't, you really will be trouble if your stakeholders want you to respond. So there is a process.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Where do you come down on like, if, if I'm a CEO of a company, I personally have a strong opinion on this issue, but I also know that my name is associated with my company and I speak for my company and there's might be a, a difference there. How do you, how do you navigate that

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

I think, um, CEOs, uh, are, you know, anybody who runs an organization of any kind, non profit, for profit, you know, what have you, um, they are an extension of the brand. And so what I would say is you have to understand that your personal beliefs Um, have to match up with the company's, um, position and if they don't, um, it's very difficult to come out and, and, and, and say otherwise, um, and you're making a conscious choice and that could negatively impact the company.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

and then just. In all of your experiences, what have you seen, um, people believe with the least amount of evidence of it being true?

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Oh, Chip, do you want to answer that?

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

I don't know that

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Okay.

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Yeah. Like,

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Ask me that question one more time. What do they believe with least amount of

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Yeah, what have you seen people believe, like about themselves or the world, anything, with the least amount of evidence of that actually being true?

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

I think that they believe that the world will forgive them. Um, for whatever it is they did wrong without them doing anything to fix it, like, it'll

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Oh, wow.

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

It'll

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

It'll just go away.

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

go away on its own. Like, right? Chip, when you say that people have that they're under that delusion as we do as we do crisis management.

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

this, we don't see this as a big deal, you know, let's just keep our, You know, let's keep our heads down. Let's keep, let's keep working. We're, we're all doing the right thing. This is going to blow over. Right. And no,

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

last words.

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Right. Right.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Okay, interesting.

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

it

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

As we

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Yeah,

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Yeah, that seems like not the case. Um, as we wind down here, why do you like doing what you do? You're both clearly passionate about this, you've spent so much time and effort towards this, and there's obviously a societal benefit to what you do, but it's not easy work, why do you pick to do that?

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

we're gluttons for punishment. No kidding. Um, I think, no, honestly, I think one of the things that we see happen, um, in these crisis situations is we are able to take someone who is really in the worst moment of their professional career, walk them through it, and, um, make them feel better about what is happening, give them solutions are action oriented, give them an approach that's proven and, then give them a plan for how to bounce back. But we see opportunities in almost every crisis that we experience. What we help people with. Um, there's almost never a situation at which we've walked in and we go, Oh, this is absolutely hopeless. There's, you know, maybe a few times. I don't know. I might take that back. Just kidding. But no, there's always some opportunity within the crisis to either fix, repair. Rebuild. And so giving people that sense of it's not the worst thing that could happen. Here's how you rebuild. I think that's very satisfying. And we've made so many good friends, um, who we've seen through these situations who really value what we've been able to do. And that feels really good.

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Yeah.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Chip?

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Yeah. I would, I would say I'm always amazed at You know, in these instances that, uh, Adele sees so much potential that it's, it's kind of like doing an audit in, in, in some way, like a, like if a business were to bring you in and to say, Hey, where were, there might be more opportunities that were, might be missing here. And it's strange, but a crisis often reveals that is that you start to see, you know, the way that the mechanisms of how their organization's working. And then you see what. Maybe brought them to the crisis and and there's another component to it that's just sitting right there. It's so obvious. And Adele is able to take that and say, you know, if you promoted this more or if we just move this over here to address this problem, you know, and she's won a company's awards before

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Thank you.

chip-massey_1_02-12-2025_140344:

that they often, you know, build back better and they improve as as a result of of going through this experience.

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

One thing I would say, Emily, is one of the key things that Chip brings to the table and, and that we wrote about in the book that I think it's just really critical is this idea that we all have really great skills that we can bring to the table, and we can offer people when, you know, when we're dealing with leadership and in a variety of situations, right? You can come in and you can say, these are the five things you can do And you have to do right now. These are the five things that my expertise says you should be doing now. It doesn't matter. It does not matter if they are not willing to hear it, to do it, to accept it emotionally. It doesn't matter. So one of the things Chip brought my company, our company in, in crisis situations is, is I could tell them what to do, but he could make them want to do it.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Uh, yes.

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

and most of us don't know those skills. We don't have those skills because we're not. intrinsically taught. We're, we're, we're taught how to do it, not really taught how to convince someone else they should. And that's the hole in the market. I think our book fills for people. It's, we're giving you all the tools to get someone to do what it is, you know, as the expert in whatever it is you do, whether it's marketing, change management, whatever it might be, you, they want to do it. If you use the methods in our book, that's

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Yes. Yes. And I would highly recommend the book. Convince me. We'll have a link in the show notes. And then Adele chip, if someone's listening to this and it's like, Oh my gosh, I need to get in touch. I want to put it together. My proactive plan and contingency plans, or, Oh no, something has, has just hit. Uh, I need to have the bat phone to call these folks. Where's the best place for them to find you?

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Sure. Go to convincing company. com and, and we have our information and contact information right there for you. Reach out and we'll, we'll get back to you within 60 minutes. That's our, that's

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Wow.

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

call.

emily-sander_1_02-12-2025_110344:

Wow. 60 minutes. Okay. Beautiful. Adele chip. Thank you so much.

adele-gambardella_1_02-12-2025_140344:

Thank you.