Leveraging Leadership

The Secret to Great Teams: Understanding Core Human Drives (Learn, Acquire, Defend, Bond)

• Emily Sander • Season 1 • Episode 185

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Jay Johnson, a global speaker and consultant, explains his Behavioral Elements Assessment, which is based on four biological drives: learn (air), acquire (fire), defend (earth), and bond (water). Jay and Emily discuss her unusually balanced results across all four elements, the strengths and challenges of each drive, and how Chiefs of Staff and executives can use these insights to improve team communication and put people in the right roles. Jay also shares real examples, like adapting messages to fit high “bond” teachers versus results-driven CFOs, and offers free assessments for Chiefs of Staff.

Links Mentioned:

  • Jay Johnson’s Podcast: Talent Forge
  • Chiefs of Staff interested in the free behavioral assessment can email Emily at: emily@nextlevel.coach

        Promo code: "J" or just put "J" in the subject line.


Free Resources:

 

Get in Touch With Emily:

 

Who Am I?

If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want. 

 

Time Stamps:

01:40 Emily's Unique Behavioral Assessment
03:19 Understanding Behavioral Intelligence
04:12 The Four Core Drives
06:05 Balancing the Drives
14:54 Applying Behavioral Insights in Organizations
21:34 Handling Difficult People with Behavioral Assessments
24:41 The Thumbtack Rule: Managing Team Dynamics
27:44 Balancing Strengths and Weaknesses
37:10 Understanding Drives in Different Roles
40:18 Special Offer and Closing Remarks

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My guest today is Jay Johnson and Jay is a global speaker and consultant who empowers teams and leaders with behavioral intelligence. And we'll get into what that means in a bit here. He's a TEDx speaker and he's led workshops in 20 countries across four continents. That right, Jay?

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

That's about right, yeah.

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

You're a globetrotter. All right, you're the real deal. So Jay and I first met when I was a guest on his podcast Talent Forge, which is a great show that you can check out We'll have a link for that in the show notes below but Jay and I were talking about different Behavioral assessments that we like I've used disc before and he has his own he has this behavioral assessment Elements assessment and he was kind enough to give that to me for free to take and I took that and I've seen the results and kind of scan through but behavioral assessment is your whole world and we thought it would be fun to kind of go through some highlights of my report to break that down and give people give people a little a little sense of what the behavioral intelligence and Elements assessment is all about.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

Yeah, I'm excited to be here with you. Thank you so much for having me. what was your initial thoughts, Emily, when you saw your scores come in? Because I've got some insights, but I always like to start with getting your feel for where you thought you landed.

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

so There's four elements and I was almost perfectly even on all four. So that was the first thing that I noticed. I don't know if that's normal or if that's, Ooh, that's interesting. Cause normally one element, you know, pops up over all the others. So

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

it is quite rare, Your profile was very interesting. So, uh, we've done about 40, 000 assessments and I can say that your profile comes in at less than 1 percent of all of the assessments that we

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

I am a special snowflake. Okay.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

you are quite special. So there's some different permutations of the way that the elements end up laying out, but you have what we would call a very, very balanced. Profile.

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

Okay.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

uh, you know, so when you take the assessment and generally we have different frames. So we would say some people have a really strong single preference where one of the elements is much higher than the others. We have double preferences where two of the elements are very high and the other two elements are a little lower. then we have even a triple preference where three are above the line and then, you know, one's just a little bit below, but yours all fell within that range of balance. So

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

Okay.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

yeah,

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

me jump in here. So number one, I'm, I'm a special snowflake. Great. Um, I should have started with this. Maybe you can give us a quick, like high level behavior intelligence, get us in like the, the universe of what we're talking about. And then we can drill in to my specific report.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

that's perfect. So behavioral elements is a little bit different than many of the other assessments. Um, it is built on the science of Dr. Paul Lawrence and Dr. Nitin Nohria out of Harvard University. And what they wanted to do was. Understand how human nature shapes our choices. So this is less about putting you in a box and saying, this is who you are. And this is what it is. This is really about understanding how do we as human beings come to different decisions? How do we, how do our behaviors show up? So one of the unique characteristics about this assessment is that just because you're high in something, that doesn't mean that you're good at it. Just because you're low in something, that doesn't mean that you're bad at it. We as humans have all four core biological drives, and I'll share what those are real quick, just so everybody's got an understanding of that. The first drive is the drive to learn, which is our air element, which is really in service to innovation, novelty, new ideas, experiences, pioneering, uh, different ways of learning. We have the drive to acquire, which is our fire element. That's really about, uh, results focused strategies, winning, competition, uh, can be a little bit related to ego. Sometimes being the best or mastery in a particular area. the drive to defend, which is our earth element. And that one's really about. Managing uncertainty or overcoming risk. And we see the behaviors that come through in systems thinking process orientation, essentially creating the structures. So that way we can always you know, in our different environments. And then last but not least, we have the drive to bond and the drive to bond really about our connection, um, people focused empathy, creating the conditions for strong community and relationships. very much. of these four elements and these four drives, these are essentially mapped to our neurotransmitters. So this is an assessment that's not based on personality. It is actually based on the way that our structural brain works. So, for example, the drive to bond. is very much associated with oxytocin. Our drive to defend, very much with adrenaline, cortisol, norepinephrine. Drive to acquire, dopaminergic desire circuit, and our drive to learn, very much associated with acetylcholine, GABA, et cetera, in sort of our learning constructs. Just because you're low doesn't mean you're good, or bad. Just because you're high doesn't mean you're good. But what we try to help people do is balance the drives. Now you are already very, very balanced. And if we were to look at somebody like your profile, we would say, okay, you probably have pretty good, uh, capabilities of leaning into a particular sets of behavior. So let me define your profile by what it's not. I, Emily completely unbalanced. I do not have a single one of my elements that are in the of balance. Um, yeah, so I'll share with you a little bit of my results. I'm very strong in the drive to acquire, and I'm very, very low in say, Uh, which is the fire element, uh, I'm very low in the earth element, which is the drive to defend, which means when I am trying to do systems process or anything else, it's exhausting to me. It is so exhausting. Now it doesn't mean I'm bad at it. I'm a research scientist. I have to do methodological studies that require a lot of details, a lot of orientation, um, a lot of systematic thinking and a lot of process data and everything else. I'm actually quite good at those things. I do those, it's about 30 minutes and I am, I need a nap or

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

You're drained.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

espresso. Exactly. Right? However, when I'm standing on stage and I'm delivering a keynote or when I'm working with a group of people, that brings me a ton of energy. So my drive to acquire that results focus. That actually helps me to do some of the things I, I do work in that research and that methodological in order to help me win. that's really what the elements is about is how do we structure our thinking? How do we structure our decision making? your, Your top, your primary element was the drive to bond. your secondary was the drive to acquire. So you went water and then fire is next, but they're very, very close to each other. we would look at in somebody's profile, such as yours would say you like to win. But you want to win with a team. You want to help everybody win. You're looking at driving results that are essentially going to feed the community, um, not just necessarily about your individualistic desire to win. So you have probably a strong passion towards particular subjects, particular areas. You can probably, uh, you can probably work as well with a team as you can work individually, uh, by yourself. Now, this is another one that makes this a little bit unique. The third and fourth elements matter just as much as your primary two. Okay. So like in a lot of personality assessments, like, okay, I'm a high D and a high I and nothing else matters because I

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

Yep.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

at those behaviors. That's not really the case here. Um, when we see, uh, when we see the third and fourth, it's really almost like a structural hierarchy for how we're looking at an issue or a problem. Um, so. way that I would look at this with you is you're going to evaluate, does this impact the people that are around me that drive to bond in a positive or negative way? Does this help me win the drive to acquire is going to be that secondary analysis. The third is, Can I repeat this win? Is this win reliable? Is it something that's safe? Is it something that's going to be, um, something that I can do again and again and again with consistency, or has there been a structure for me to do that? The drive to defend. And then lastly. The air element is more of along the lines of, is there another way I could do this? Do I need a different way to do this? Did this not work? Okay, well let me think about another way that I could solve that problem. So it's not one or the other, it's all four. With you being balanced, it's a superpower because you can really lean into each of those more effectively, uh, without necessarily the, uh, energy or the motivational, uh, sapping than say somebody that has earth super low, like me, where it's like, Oh my God, I got to think about another process. Does that make sense, Emily?

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

Yeah, no, thank you for that. That's really interesting. And as you were saying those descriptions, I was like, yes, yes, yes. And yes. So I resonated with all of the things you were saying. And I'm trying to think of like a visual because is it kind of like, um, not like maybe like the Russian dolls where it's like you have a primary one. That's, I don't know, like the top one, but that doesn't quite make sense. I'm trying to think of a way of, uh, like framing this up in a, in a visual.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

Yeah. I like to, I like think of it as almost like buckets, right? Like each of the elements would represent a bucket of our sort of needs. Your, your, your top element, your highest element, that's going to be your biggest bucket. That's where you're going to be spending the majority of your energy to pour into that bucket. Um, But that doesn't mean you don't have to fill the other buckets. The other buckets still need to be filled. It's just, maybe it's going to take more thought to say, all right, well, now that I've got my primary one sort of filled, I can move on to the secondary and then the third and then the fourth. So

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

Okay.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

that would be a little closer, but what I would, what I would say with that though, too, is, and the really interesting thing here is when we neglect any of the elements. actually end up suffering and there's an emotional connection that we have to it. So let me give you a quick example of this. Say you're working in an organization and there's an incredible compensation and incredible benefits package as part of your employment. is where when I do consulting, I try to help people understand a good leader or a good organization is going to help people fill all of their buckets. So you've

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

Hmm.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

compensation and benefits plan. You've solved the drive to acquire. in that organization, people don't talk to each other, they feel isolated, they don't feel connected to the team or to connected to the larger mission. Well, guess what? You're now going to have a very low, uh, Um, drive to bond or that connection amongst the team is going to be low. And that's not really going to get filled. Or what if there's no growth opportunity? You got to push the same button over and over and over again. It's great pay. It's great benefits. But you, there's no difference between today, yesterday, tomorrow, or 10 years from now. People are going to get bored with that. They're not going to have any kind of growth look for the drive to learn. So that air element, or if it's, yeah, you've got a great job and there's great pay, but the odds of you getting let go within the next five years, well, you've got about a 50, 50 chance of staying here. Now, now all of a sudden that drive to defend is not being filled. we

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

So,

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

Yeah, go ahead.

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

sorry, so just to make sure I'm tracking, we've got like four buckets and the goal is not to like overflow one bucket is to fill all of them, uh, relatively equally or just make sure there's water in all of them. And so you can't just say, Oh, I have good compensation. So this buck is overflowing and that makes up for all the others. The goal is to fill each bucket.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

That's right. when an organization over relies on one of those things, like think of it, think of it the opposite way. You've got a great team and awesome environment. People like each other. People trust each other. but the pay is probably 30 or 40 percent less than what you could be doing somewhere else. You might stay in that environment for a while. But eventually, you're going to start going. I really need to pay my bills. So I'm going to find a different position. or the opposite way of you're paying your bills, but you feel, uh, neglected or disassociated with everybody. Well, you can do that for a little while, but eventually you're going to burn out and you're going to want. sort of connection, if an organization is not helping people fulfill all four drives and, and some people are going to want different things, right? My drive to acquire, I'm going to be, I'm going to need more in that sort of fire area. I need, and it doesn't necessarily just mean compensation. I need to, you got to help me learn how to win. You got to show me how I can compete, how I can gain mastery, how I can keep pushing myself forward. That's going to be what I'm looking for in an organization first. And then second is, am I growing? Am I learning? And then third is, am I connected? And then fourth is, do I feel safe? Different

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

So if,

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

Yeah. Beautifully

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

beautiful. So if I'm an individual, I'm like, okay, I can take this assessment and use it in terms of now I can identify what my, what my biggest bucket is, or my highest, I don't want to say ranked, but kind of most emphasized element. And then. Make sure that I'm doing the things to, to match that. So if, okay, I am more fiery over here, I need to win. I need to define my win and then I need to make sure that I have that need fulfilled. And so to go in positions, um, in your career and in, I mean, in your career and outside of your job too, to put you in positions to. To cater to that or to align with that. If I'm an organization or a leader, then I can take a look at the assessment of my team members and go, Oh, oh my gosh. Okay. Well, Jay needs to do this, this, this Melissa over here needs that, that, that. And I need to be able to be aware of that and flex. My leadership to their style, but also put them in positions where they can be successful. So is that like as a quick recap? Is that close?

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

stated. Yeah. Let me give me an example of that. So I, I do a lot of work in the talent development space, hence the talent forge as the podcast. But one of the things that happens a lot of times is let's take a chief financial officers who are interacting with say the L and D team. Well, across our data sets, we know that L and D teams tend to have very high water drive to bond and high air. Drive to learn. We know that chief financial officers across our data sets tend to have a little bit higher of the drive to defend structures, systems, processes, and some of the drive to acquire, uh, get it done, get it done fast and win. Right? Well, when you have those two different divisions that are interacting with each other, When the L and D team comes in and says, Oh, well, we want to run this program and it's going to help the people and they're going to learn all these cool things and they're going to be engaged and so on and so forth. the CFO side is going, okay, where's the profitability? What's the cost of that? How is this structured? What's the impact going to be? How is this going to be sustainable? And so on and so forth. You've got two very different motivations and very different sets of drives that are going to. Go into that decision. So if the CFO says, I don't see a value to this program and the L and D turns and says, how could you not see this as valuable? I mean, all of our people are going to love this. You're on two different playing fields, being able to understand this and being able to communicate or kind of have a better understanding of. What is actually driving their decisions? What is, what is forcing their communication patterns, their styles, and all of those that helps to bridge those relationships and helps us better understand how to lead those different organizations or entities.

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

Yes. And a lot of chiefs of staff are listening to this and a lot of principles. So executives who might have a chief of staff, I would strongly recommend doing this behavioral assessment for your team. Because it will help you as a group to be, to communicate at the very least, which is not least at all to communicate better. Like, Oh, this is how I want to deliver information to Sheila, or, Oh, how this is how Damien prefers to be communicated to you. That's a huge win right there. And then if you can go further to that and say, Oh my gosh, okay. You know, this person needs a lot of bonding. And so I need to make sure that. Yeah. We're, we're giving them the, not consensus might not be the right word, but we're giving them the opportunities to connect with people and to bond with the group, um, and to have that camaraderie. Maybe that's something that I can emphasize a bit more with this team member. So I think it's hugely valuable. The executive team, there's going to be, Egos and strong personalities and different people at different stages of their career. So just understanding all of that beneath the surface level, I think is so, so, so important and can only help your team and can only help you as an individual. So just wanted to throw that out there. Cause I've seen many at an executive team who could desperately use an assessment like this.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

Well, and you're, you're so spot on in your analysis there. Uh, the reality is, is when we're looking at, say, you know, if a chief of staff is going to be looking and how they're communicating to a different division, I'll give an example of this, that we helped a credit union, whose primary, uh, Um, whose primary customers were actually teachers. Well, from our data sets, we know that teachers tend to show the drive to bond. Uh, 78 percent of the respondents that have taken the assessment showed the drive to bond as their primary element. Well, the communications coming from the credit union were sign up for this account. We're going to put 300 into your pocket. Which

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

Wrong bucket.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

satisfies the drive to acquire. So we shifted the language ever so slightly in their marketing and it was sign up for this account and we will put 300 towards a organization of your choosing to help them out. We did another, we did an AB test of sign up for the account. We'll put 300 in your friend's pocket. We saw nearly 23 percent increase in compliance from our marketing requests. Based on subtle shifts, that was no longer satisfying the drive to acquire, but now satisfying the drive to bond or community or to our people. And that's one of the things that we can learn as an executive leader. Simply by shifting some of the message or the intention behind the message can make the same message resonate with me very, very differently than it's going to resonate with you, or that it's going to resonate with the accounting department or, uh, the L and D teams, et cetera. If that makes sense.

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

Yes, it does make sense. It makes perfect sense. And as chiefs of staff and just executives, you're communicating to different constituents all day long. So you might be communicating with your leadership team, with the compliance team, with a strategic partner, with the press, all of these are different groups and you have to understand the message that's relevant to them, but then also deliver it in a way that lands for that audience. And you have to be able to flex to that. And I've seen. So many people who are great at their jobs in other ways, but just, just give like the same kind of can boom, boom, boom. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. You can deliver that same content and the same. message, but you have to, you have to package it in a little bit different way, depending on whom, uh, who you're talking to. Um, and I, I was curious on your take for dealing with difficult people. That's just what people kind of label it. Like I have this difficult person. I have to work with this coworker. Like, how do I like, how do I do this? I'm wondering how this behavioral assessment can help you with that. Even if you just have like one piece of the equation, let's say for, for your personal. Um, assessment. How would you use that to, to interact with others? And

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

a difficult person to particular members of my team, so I'll share how that looks, you know, on Monday, Jay comes into the office flying in going, Oh, team, I've got this great idea. You know, I was watching this Netflix documentary. Let's go north. the team says, all right, Jay, let's do it. And they sit down and they start researching and they start going through where are we going to stop? Where are we going to eat along the way? What sites are we going to do? Well, by the time that Wednesday comes along, I sit down and I come flying back into the office and I'm like, Oh, you know what? I had this amazing podcast with Emily and, uh, we're not going to go north. We're going to go south. And now my team is going, you just said North. I just spent the last 48 hours trying to get ready for North. And then, so they begrudgingly at this point in time, start preparing us to go South. Well, Friday I come in and say, know, Emily sent this amazing thing after the podcast and I looked at it and, uh, now we need to go West. Now, the way that my brain is, air is my secondary, fire is my first. So I innovate in order to win. So coming up with an idea, coming up with something new and getting out there and doing it, that's what I love. Well, my team who may have some earth and water starts going, how are you going to pay for that? Where's this fit in the strategic plan? What are you going to do with this? So on and so forth. I become a difficult person not because I intended to, but that's just really what's motivating my behavior. That's what excites me. That's what I become passionate about. Now, when my team comes and says, how are you going to do all these things and puts up this, Wall of defense that the earth element I might look and say why are you being such a stick in the mud? I mean, let's give it a try. What's the worst that's gonna happen and we find ourselves in conflict And the reality is is it wasn't until I really understood the elements that I start to see Oh, they want some security. They want to manage uncertainty because our brain wants that right in the history of no one was it like come down to my office and we're like, yes, I'm getting a raise. You know, we always we always think the worst. So being able to help them satisfy simply shifting a small behavior saying, Hey, team. think that we should go West. Here's where I think it fits our strategic plan. This is where I think we can budget for it. This is how I think we could do this, but I know that I'm going to be missing some details because that's not my strength. How do you think we should be able to proceed forward? And my team looks at me and says, Jay's the idea guy and he wants to get things done. So we created the thumbtack rule. Hey Jay, that sounds like an awesome idea. Let's put a thumbtack in it. If you're still as excited about this next week, we're going to get you operational. Right. So the elements help us kind of better understand not only how we communicate, but also how we think what our patterns of motivations might be. And that can help us reduce, or at least better understand the people that we might find really, really difficult.

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

I think that example highlights the fact that you might see it initially as difficult people, but when you tilt it, so it works together and it complements, it actually, it actually becomes a more full team. It becomes a more effective and successful team because you need. All sorts of people. And you, sometimes you need the visionary and like, let's go, go, go. And sometimes you need the person who is like, that's great. That's nice. But we can't actually do that on the ground yet. Here are the steps we would need to do to put us in position to be able to do that. And you, sometimes you need both. I mean, all the times you need both, but, uh, if you can find people who are in, Different elements than you and but find communicate effectively and work together. I think that's where you get that exponential, you know, 1 plus 1 equals 3 effect.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

100%, right? Like I stress my earth's out, but they recognize I do, but they recognize, okay, if we don't, if we only have 60 percent of the information and we need to make a decision, Jay's our guy to go to. while my earth's can stress me out sometimes, I also look and say, all right, I need to make sure that I have all of the details for the conference that I'm traveling to. Is my visa covered? Cause I have. Actually, before I understood all of these things, well, I flew somewhere and they were like, well, where's all this? Where's your paperwork? Where's this? And

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

Oh, no.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

let me call my team. They're going to

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

Oh, no.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

Yeah. You know, but like for me, it just, it wasn't how I thought it wasn't what I was considering. It was just like, Oh, adventure. Let's go. So yeah. We, when we had better understand it and can see our team and can value their unique contributions and the way that they approach things when they're all working together, it really does make for a more holistic, effective, functional organization. And when we're not managing them, it can lead to a lot of that conflict or bad, you know, difficult behaviors that we have to overcome and navigate.

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

I think one of the big takeaways there is. When you, when you're just presented with, Oh, this is a difficult person. That's like surface level. You have to go deeper and understand. Actually, like, no, it makes sense if I'm looking at it from this perspective and this is the element that's most important to this person. It makes perfect sense how they're behaving and they're going to see me as the difficult person. So maybe, maybe like the perverse highlight is you are the difficult person to people like you might not know it, but like just understand you are and come together on that. Um, To circle back to my assessment, what should I do with the fact that, uh, I'm pretty much even across the board, which puts me like sub 1%, but my strongest one is, was it it's water? It's the bonding. Yes.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

Yep. Drive to bond. So what we would look at and say, um, if we were doing some coaching or some consulting with you, what we would do is say, okay, well, you have a strong drive to bond. Here are some of the behaviors that we might see. Do any of these behaviors resonate with you? People with the high drive to bond can oftentimes maybe have difficulty saying no, okay. or drawing a particular boundary. They may have difficulty asking for help. They may have difficulty, um, they may have difficulty or challenges of absorbing people's emotions around them and may experience some different things like burnout. Are any of those behaviors, uh, something that you've experienced before? And if they were, Well, okay. Well, how can we, how can we learn where that drive to bond is influencing those behaviors? Are those behaviors serving you? How can we shift away and maybe move to a different place of giving you the tools to be able to manage either boundaries, manage, uh, emotions, or manage, you know, sort of like that team play. Does that make sense?

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

Yeah, it does. It kind of sounds like you're talking about things are a strength until they're not, until you take them too far and they hurt you. And so it sounded like you were talking about the, if you take it too far realm, these things might be showing up for you or any of those showing up for you. If yes, let's find a way to kind of redirect that, um, part of it.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

Yeah, it's about, you know, it's about getting that sort of to that balance space, because even though you have a very balanced profile and they can lean in, that doesn't mean that particular behaviors are present or not present. So we would actually work with you to better understand that. Now, the other, um, the other interesting thing, so we might look at maybe the lowest element. In this case, it's the drive to learn. Uh, the air element. So we might say, Hey, do you ever find yourself in a position where you feel stuck or you're uncomfortable with something new or maybe have difficulty with change or change management challenges? Okay, well, if that's the case, one of those. Here, here's how we can help you really lean into that air element to be more adaptive or to be okay with failure or to be okay with, um, you know, coming up with a completely new plan, throwing out the old plans and running with something new. And what we do is because the brain's very neuroplastic, right? Like each of these, as it's mapped to our hardware, our hardware can shift. Neuroplasticity tells us like, I always make the joke. A lot of people have. You know, if you were to think about brushing your teeth, most people will put their toothbrush in their dominant hand. Now, if I tell them to imagine putting it into their opposite hand and brushing their teeth, yeah, most people go, Oh my God, I'm going to stab myself in the gums a thousand times. you may do that for the first week. Maybe even the second week, but after time of practicing something, does that mean you're going to switch your dominant hand? No, of course not. You're still going to be dominant handed one or the other, but over time you're going to be more comfortable with particular actions or behaviors using your off hand. So we might take a low one and say, here's the, here's the behaviors or behavioral patterns that we know from this drive. Are those comfortable to you? Are those uncomfortable to you? And if it's uncomfortable, how can we help you become more comfortable leaning into that space? Thanks. Thanks.

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

Yeah, that's an interesting example. So I've heard that before. I actually tried it once and I have an electronic toothbrush and needless to say, there were, there was toothpaste like on parts of my face and heard that it should never be. I was like, this is dumb. I'm switching back to my dominant hand. Um, but yes, uh, but it does make you think and use different neural pathways for sure. Uh, don't do that in the morning time because that's not a good, not a good idea. Um, anyway, so, but you mentioned that an advantage of having such an even. even keel on all four elements is I can kind of flip into each one or utilize the positive parts of each one. So is that something that I can lean in lean into?

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

Yes, 100%. So somebody that has a very strong or high preference in one or the other, they may over rely on those behaviors. Um, so, you know, mine being a very, very high drive to acquire high fire element. I was always competitive. You know, I was somebody that now, interestingly, C suite. Tends to have very strong drive to acquire is very strong. They want to win, and they probably got to that C suite by getting results by, um, taking chances, making risks, et cetera. And that's true for chief of staff. So I'm sure as well, uh, when we look at, uh, You know, when we look at sort of that competition drive, well, you can really only lean into that so much when you're working with maybe, uh, you know, when you're working with maybe your HR team and your HR team is typically going to be made more of drive to bond and drive to defend water and earth. Okay. Well, if I push constantly for them to compete, compete, compete, compete. I'm going to alienate them. So when I'm not aware of what's driving my drives, I tend to overuse those. And this is where behaviors become patternistic. My example of this, my 10 year old nephew, I taught him how to play chess during COVID. Okay. And, uh, if you can imagine super strong drive to acquire on my side, I never let him win. Now, I'm not a monster, not a monster here, but one day I was over there and I'm playing chess and I look at, I'm playing on my phone while I'm playing chess with them. I slide my queen across the board and I take my fingers off of it. And you ever have one of those moments, Emily, where you're like, Oh, Oh my God, I just made a huge, I'm having that moment, my strong drive to acquire my hands start to sweat. Like my, my throat tightens, my heart starts palpitating. And I'm looking across the table and I started thinking to my, like, Oh my gosh, my 10 year old nephew is going to go tell my dad, his Papa, Oh, I beat uncle Jay. You know? And I'm like, I start panicking to an extent. He looks at me, he looks at the board, he looks at me and he wipes my queen off. Now I have these physical reactions and I also have, you know, these thoughts pop into my brain of like, well, I just bumped the table. Guess we got to start over. I

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

Oh

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

that. I didn't do any of that. Like I said, I'm not a monster. I looked across the table and I said, nice move, kiddo. You might have me this time. So instead of my drive to acquire taking over and hijacking my system, I activate my drive to bond and I say, really nice job. Good catch. Now, thankfully he screwed up and I won, but that's not the moral of the story. The moral of the story is we can choose our behaviors that are more fitting for a system. We might fall into patterns that are really related to our strong drives, but we can choose a better behavior for a situation when we can be aware Of where those patterns are coming from for you, um, and having a really balanced profile. The nice thing is, is that you're probably, you've probably adapted to leaning into particular behaviors in a very functional way. So if you're in an environment that is very systems and process and uh, you know, sort of strict guidelines, maybe that's not your favorite. But it's not going to be something where you're constantly looking to, uh, override those things, or it's not, you're not going to be looking to sort of dismantle them or forget about all of them. Whereas somebody with my profile, that might be a really uncomfortable environment for me, and I'd have a very difficult time adapting my behaviors. To that pattern. So what this now, that doesn't mean you're going to love it forever. Cause one of the things that you're going to be looking at is, is this really helping the team? And is it helping them win? Cause that's your structural hierarchy, the team helping them wind. Okay. If it's doing that, then these systems and processes are okay. If it's not doing that, you may challenge those systems and processes because you're not going to be strict on whatever patterns of behavior. Because you're going to be pretty fluid and adaptable.

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

yeah. What's kicking in for me now is I played sports growing up. And so like I was competitive, like very, like if we lost, that was a bad weekend for everyone in my family. Um, but if we won, I was so happy, but for the team, so I wanted, I played team sports, basketball, and soccer, and I wanted to win, but I wanted the team, obviously it to be a team win. And I think I know that carried over. Some good parts and some bad parts into my corporate career where like, I was driven to win and my team was going to be the best team. It was going to be excellent and have high standards. And it was just going to blow all the other teams out of the water. Now that could be internal teams or competitors or whatever. It could be directed in healthy ways and unhealthy ways. But when I became chief of staff and my executive team, Was my team, then I, that was my group and I wanted us to win and I was very driven about that, but it was, this is now my team and so we are all going to be excellent and have high standards and I'm going to help each and every one of you win, so we win as a group, so let's go, but that was, that was definitely what was running through my mind when you were reading those descriptions as we Round out here, if a chief of staff is listening, they're going to be interacting with CEOs and COOs and CFOs and CTOs. And I know that you've sliced and diced some of your data according to different functions or different industries. And I'm just wondering at a high level, is there anything that would be useful for a chief of staff when they're saying, okay, I don't want to paint people with a broad brush here, but you know, there might be some clues or some interesting insights that you might have for them.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

Yeah. And, uh, so, and again, there's no form or anything else like that. Whereas like I'm high in fire, so you're going to make a great CEO. That's it doesn't work like that. But what we do see is CEOs and the C suite in general tend to have stronger drives or patterns of behaviors that are competitive driven to acquire. So more of the fire element. of those other areas, though, can be very different. So, for example, the CFO, our financial side of things, oftentimes we'll see a mixture of fire and earth. In our CHRO, more of our chief human resource officer, we may see more of a, um, fire and water, or we could even see a high earth and water, uh, where we're looking at some of the other divisions. Uh, you'll see a stronger secondary come into play or even a strong primary with fire is the secondary. So, uh, learning and development. Oftentimes you're going to see water or. As your primary, and then you're going to see fire as a secondary at that super high level. Um, so something that we can kind of take into it and say, there's going to be some level of competition. Some of that drive that results focused, but there's also going to be a really strong preference generally towards one of the other elements. That when we understand that, well, that gives us the ability to motivate them, to help them understand and align purpose in an organization, to help them feel value, uh, valued scene and to help them feel motivated.

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

Hmm. And just out of curiosity, what do you see across sales and marketing leaders?

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

Yeah. So sales is typically high fire. So we've done a lot of work with like Keller Williams Realty, for example, uh, they tend to show very high fire element as their primary and then water is their secondary versus we've done some with insurance companies. Where we tend to see fire and then earth. Okay. But we do see a strong drive to acquire within that space of sales from the marketing side of things. Oftentimes we'll see a very strong drive to learn. So that creativity, that innovation. Um, so we see that more often than not.

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

Yeah, gotcha. Okay. So that's a perfect segue into our special offer. So for the chiefs of staff listening, Jay was talking about wanting more information on that subset, on that specific group. And so he has kindly said that the first 20 people to email me, um, will get a Behavioral Elements Assessment. So the one that you heard, uh, me just go through with Jay, you will get that for yourself and have an opportunity to answer those questions, get your report, and review that. So if that's of interest to you, then you can email me at It's emilyatnextlevel. coach and just put Jay as the promo code or put Jay in the subject line, and we will set you up with your free report, which should be fantastic for you. And if you have a chief of staff on your team or a chief of staff that you know, then, um, please feel free to reach out for your free report. But. Jay, thank you for that special offer and we'll hopefully get you some good information on that cohort and if people are interested in learning more about you or a keynote or a workshop or getting some of the assessments done for a larger group, where is the best place to find you?

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

Yeah, thank you, Emily. And I hope your audience takes, takes, uh, takes it up because I think that they're really going to enjoy it, but you can catch me on LinkedIn. That's where I'm most prolific. And it is J A Y Johnson. Um, CCG, if you're putting it in the entire thing. Otherwise, you can also email me at J A Y at behavioral elements dot com. And that comes directly to me.

undefined_NaN_11-13-2024_100644:

And we'll have all that information in the show notes. And I would encourage people to check out Jay's podcast talent forge. That's a great show. I can say from personal experience, but Jay, thank you. Once again, this is, this is fascinating stuff. And I think it helps people out, especially when they're working with an executive team. So thank you.

jay-johnson_1_11-13-2024_130645:

My absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me, Emily.