Leveraging Leadership

What It’s Really Like Being a Fractional COO or Chief of Staff

• Emily Sander • Season 1 • Episode 189

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Scott Adams shares how he went from working in pro sports and leading teams at Exos and Mayo Clinic to offering fractional COO and Chief of Staff services. He explains the difference between COO and Chief of Staff roles, how he helps companies realign strategy and improve efficiency, and why real listening is key to building trust. Scott also talks through how he approaches discovery calls, setting bold goals with clients, and why leaders should focus on small improvements that add up over time.

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Who Am I?

If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want. 

 

Time Stamps:

00:42 Scott Adams' Unique Career Path
01:36 Launching Wellness Services and Scaling
02:51 Founding Adams Consulting Firm
03:48 Understanding Client Needs and Fit
05:27 Scaling Companies and Growth Challenges
10:01 COO vs. Chief of Staff Roles
17:54 Balancing Multiple Engagements
19:10 Value of Knowledge Over Time
22:37 Building Relationships Across Multiple Companies
24:06 Listening and Engaging with Teams
26:19 Transitioning from Listening to Action
29:12 Empowering Teams and Encouraging Self-Sufficiency
31:39 The Role and Impact of a Fractional Chief of Staff
37:26 Setting Ambitious Goals and Measuring Progress
40:24 The Importance of Incremental Improvement
41:57 Final Thoughts and Key Takeaways

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

My guest today is Scott Adams. Scott how are you doing?

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

I'm doing? well, Emily. How about yourself?

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Thank you. Really excited to have you on the show. Thank you so much for being here.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

My pleasure. It's, uh, I've listened to your podcast for a while now and I'm excited to be a guest.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Awesome. Awesome. Well, we're excited to have you. So you have kind of a unique background and career path. So can you just give us the high level overview and where the chief of staff role, chief of staff roles have fit into that?

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah, how long is the podcast again? Cause it can go on a while. Yeah, I have, uh, like you said, I'll give a quick background. I have a very unique background. Um, really my career started out in pro sports working as an athletic trainer, uh, evolved from their company called Exos that used to be known as athletes performance. They work in the human performance space. So I joined there, uh, as part of a innovation team and led a team there. Uh, we worked on projects with the U. S. Navy, the Chinese Olympic Committee, the NFL Players Association. The list goes on, um, during a portion with that company. They wanted to get more into the corporate wellness side. And here's where kind of the chief of staff type of role starts to come in is. Um, we launched really a version of wellness services, which were the same things we did with our pro athletes and our elite clients and brought them to the corporate setting. So scaled and launched our push into that. So, um, we scaled from six to 300 plus employees in about 18 months

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Wow.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

which is way too fast. but we did our, our services. We brought them to Intel. Uh, you know, nationally and then internationally and then internationally as well with Google adidas and a handful of other clients as well. And then, shifted on to Mayo Clinic and launched a sports medicine division from scratch here in Arizona as well as a virtual hospital. So, um. Operating officer, chief of staff, and both those two roles launching brand new departments, um, at the same time also, and then into, uh, the retail space a little bit as kind of a chief of staff, director of enterprise role on, really transforming for retail spaces and what they do. And then, uh, just over a year ago, I launched my own. Company, Adams Consulting Firm, and I provide fractional, uh, COO and chief of staff services to clients, particularly in the healthcare, wellness and sports industry, but really those that are bringing tech in. So I'll work with tech companies that are trying to integrate into those markets or healthcare companies trying to bring tech into what they do

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Okay. So it sounds like you've been bored for the last 20, 30 years,

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

very

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

pretty much like twiddling your thumb, just nothing going on. Okay.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Gotcha. Gotcha. So you're in the fractional COO and COS type of roles. Can you just talk me through what that discovery process looks like? So when you're just starting to engage with. With a principal or with a company. And for a lot of our listeners, this would kind of be tantamount to an interview process, but as we all know, interview process, discovery process is a two way street. So what are you kind of looking for in those initial interactions?

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah, I would say the great part about being on my own compared to working for somebody, you know, back in the day I get to pick who I work with. Right? So when I'm going through that discovery process, and I'm trying to again, it's a two way interview, right? Just like anything. Um, I want to make sure that it's a client that is looking to learn and is open minded about going through that process with me. Right? And someone that needs the expertise that I do, right? If I don't feel I can help them out and what they're trying to do, then that's not the right client for me. Um, and then getting along, right? It's like you're, you know, it's kind of like a boss in your in your day to day job. If you're in the corporate world, but it's the same thing in a fractional role. You want to make sure it's the right person to work with. So you got to figure out what are those things that annoy you? Um, you know, Things that are kind of like yellow and red flags for you. So, um, for me, if I get on a call with somebody and they're telling me everything that I need to do, uh, that starts to raise a flag, right? So it's. Making sure you have the right fit for your personality and how you like to work. Um, and again, providing, knowing that you can help them is also part of it.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

I'm wondering what the. Entry point is for the person reaching out to you. So in other words, what do they think that they need

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah, and I think being a consultant and chief of staff and being in those roles, right, I think we all realize that what they think they need isn't what they actually need. Um, that, but that's why they're coming to you, right? Because there's, they have some issue going on in their business. me, a lot of times I've scaled multiple companies. So that's where kind of a lot of my expertise lies. And that's the kind of groups that I work with. Um, so they're looking to scale. A lot of them don't know how, or they just know things are too, too inefficient, whether it's. how they're doing things day to day from a process, how their team's created, or they don't know how to of create and grow their team, right? So they're really going through growth pains or to go through growth, but they don't know how to do it. So that's how they kind of originally enter into to my world.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Yeah. And I, I mean, a lot of founders are brilliant and visionary and can get this thing from ground zero to, you know, 10 or 60, but. A lot of them don't know what it's supposed to look like beyond that. They're like, I've never done this before. And so I need someone who kind of been there, done that knows what it should look like, what it can look like and how to do it. So, I mean, if you were engaging with, um, you know, a founder and they ha they had a great little company for the first year and they're like, rah, rah, rah, like, this is amazing. And they're going into year two and they're getting an, a consultant to kind of help them out. What are you? Uh, what are you guiding them towards? What are you making sure they have on their radar or are considering?

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah, no, and that's a great point. And that's one thing that I acknowledge with all my clients early on, right? They are geniuses and what they do, right? am not ingenious and whatever they do, or else I wouldn't be sitting in the seat that I am, right? So for me, it's one acknowledging that and let it, you know, it's okay that they don't know how to scale, right? That's not what their expertise is, right? And it's a collaborative process. So I try to get those 2 right out of the gate. Like, hey, we're working together to achieve this. Um, because you got to build that partnership. And I think that's the most important part. And then the other part, um, that I think sometimes gets missed is. spend the biggest chunk of my time early listening, They have a reason why they, well, most, let's say, have a reason why they've done everything. Um, what decisions they've made and why, why they hired certain people, what their roles are. Um, so I have to understand that first, right? There's a lot of knowledge that's historical that I want to learn first before building in. And then I'm just going to look at, hey, let's figure out what this foundation looks like so we can build from there.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Yeah. I'm just wondering, how do you, I mean, that's a lot of time for them to take and explain things to you. And I, and I ask the same questions, by the way, so I'm, I'm picking up what you're laying down, but sometimes you're like, okay, like this, this and this, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they just want to keep going. And for them to sit there and explain everything they've done to someone, it's useful and they need to invest that time. But sometimes it's not intuitive to them that it's a good investment. So how do you work with them to even get a grip on that?

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah, I mean, it's always one of those things that if you if I was to ask if you were a business owner, right? And I say, you know, Emily, if I can make if you have a million dollar business, and I can make you 10 percent better. that's conservative, right? We go into these situations, all of us in these roles, and we know we can make it much better than 10%. But if I could give you 100, 000 in profit on your million dollar business within 12 months. Would that be a good investment? And the answer is usually yes. Right? So helping them understand that we're in it together. Hey. if I can make you 10 percent better. That's a big difference, right? And for a smaller size company, 10%. And again, this is direct profit. We're talking about right improvement without adding expenses to it. You're really making things more efficient and taking expenses away. it's really just kind of building that trust with them. Out of the gate and establishing that you're in it together. It's a partnership. again, like we said early on, they're geniuses and what they do, they're not geniuses in establishing a business. So as much as I am listening and hearing their part, I'm also teaching them back the other way, right? Here's why I'm doing things, or here's why we should look at it this way. Or here's a question. Maybe you haven't thought of it's those things to really build that relationship together.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Gotcha. Yes. What, what helps the person you're speaking with determine if they need a COO or a chief of staff?

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, because I find, like, sometimes it's they really need both.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Hmm.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

So, um, and again, when you're depending on the company size, the smaller size and medium sized companies, a lot of times. They kind of need both, right? They need operational help, but at the same time, not good, things are siloed, and as you know, as those things grow in scale, those problems just become worse, right? So they really need both. So a lot of times I'll step into a role that was geared towards, or even in the initial discovery process, They'll be looking for a COO, but it'd be like, Hey, wait, you actually need both here.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Hmm.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

let's talk about how we can do both together because I think that'll benefit your business the best. So I would say probably 70 percent of time they come in thinking they need 1, but they actually need 2 or they actually really need a chief of staff versus, uh, operational side of things.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Okay. So if they're thinking they need a COO and you get in there and it's like, actually you need both or maybe a hybrid, are you taking on one and then helping them hire another? Or are you becoming a hybrid COO, COS, and you're talking to them about, Let's, let's tweak the scope of this a little bit so it looks like this.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah, I find I'm doing both. Um, and I think that's just a little bit of an evolution or a devolution and what the two roles are. I find like, you know, chief of staff role is more of a newer term, right? We know it's existed in government in a while for a long time, right? In some other industries, it's been there for a long time, but in the business setting, it's kind of newer. So I find a lot of times, What I was previously doing on the operational side was really operational and chief of staff together. as time has grown, there's been that idea in the right way that maybe these need to be 2 separate things. But I think a lot of earlier stage companies and companies that are just looking to scale. You kind of have to do both with them, right? Because they can't afford to bring on 2 separate people to handle those roles. But, know, down the road, when they scale to a certain point, they're going to need both of those, right? Because 1 needs to focus on that operational component. Historically for me and my roles too, operations has been really pulling everything together, right?

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Yeah.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

growth and bringing people together and communication structure and all of these things. It's always been a part of it. So I find more recently the titles have shifted, um, but the responsibilities are really, they overlap a lot.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Yeah. How would you, I know this is a large question, but just how would you go about describing the distinction between a COO and a chief of staff? And I know it depends on kind of the company and the principal and the person you're talking to, but just get us started here. What would, what would you say high level for that?

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah, I struggle with that because I've always found that there's just so much overlap between the two. And I find like the tradition, the older school COO role really. Entailed mostly a chief of staff role. Um, but to differentiate the two, sometimes I think people will, the operational side of things is more of the day to day of the business. Whereas the chief of staff is more the big picture strategic elements, right. And making sure that everyone's pulling towards those strategic elements versus pulling towards those. Day to day elements. So where I see the differentiation between the two. Um, but that's also where like, they also need to coexist together and communicate with each other because you can't have one without the other. And both of those needs, uh, you know, strategy and bringing things together and operations need to be kind of hand in hand. Um, you know, the other thing I've seen is that. A lot of times when you talk with companies that are looking for a COO, sometimes they really just want an executive assistant. Right?

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

my gosh. yeah, Okay. Here we go.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

I know this is opening up a whole other can, but, um, sometimes that happens too, right? They think operations is just the. Hey, can you do all the stuff that I don't want to do move files around, organize this and that? And it's and it's not that. So feel like there's a little bit of a bleeding of the operation role into a sector that it's not supposed to be, which I feel is also helping the chief of staff role kind of elevate its role compared to the operational side of things.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Interesting. Yeah. It's so interesting to hear people's perspective because, um, I mean, my experience is across the board because I speak with so many chiefs of staff and principals and organizations who are setting things up a little bit differently. I think to your point earlier, the company stage matters a lot here because, you know, when you're at a startup, um, you know, your COO, your COS, your, you know, head of janitorial services, you're all these different things. Right. All at once. Everyone's doing everything. Um, and as you get to a small to medium business, or certainly a larger multinational organization, I mean, COO has got to be laser focused on like the operations and delivery of that thing. And that's where I see a more clear distinction between COO and chief of staff, where chief of staff is doing is sitting above the department lines and is able to see across functions and bring You know, company wide initiatives together. And so that's a key distinction where a COO has a functional group and typically a pretty large functional group and a chief of staff might have a small, maybe not. Um, but they are, they are not tied to a functional group in the same way a COO or a CFO or, um, some other chief executive officer would be.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

yeah. That the chief of staff role takes on like a dot connecting role, right? Like who, who and what do I need to connect next that isn't really getting connected? but in, again, it's like in the operational roles I've had before, I've also been that connector, right? And I feel like those two are the most synergistic positions that need to be in alignment for an organization to actually work well because. If the operational side of things isn't also driving that strategic vision, then we have a problem, right? That's when things get more and more siloed. And, um, things really fall apart from the top.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

And I, you know, um, for instance, when I was chief of staff, our COO, so it was me, the me, our CEO and our COO. And we were kind of the triumvirate, like the core leadership team. And we were both his proxies, but it, you know, God forbid, something happened to our CEO. He got hit by a bus. Then COO was in position to literally step in with the board and he was a signature and he was doing all these things with, um, our partner. So he was like, Next on deck. And I was very much in that mix, but the COO was, was right there and seen as the go to person for the CEO. Um, I was just talking to a COS earlier this morning and he's moving into a COO role. And I'm like, you know, so and so's name, like, what's your scope? And he's like, well, um, client success and technology and go to market and marketing and sales. I'm like, so you're pretty much like the president of the company. So that was quite large. So it just really depends on. The company and how they want to use it. Um, yeah. How do you set up the, the fractional pieces? So I get a lot of questions on Emily, like I'm a full time chief of staff. I have no idea how someone would organize and prioritize being chief of staff or COO for multiple companies. So how do you approach your different engagements and balancing those?

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

yeah, it comes in a lot of different ways. You know, some clients want dedicated time. And like, they want the 12 to 2 window every day, and that's the window we work in, right? Other clients are a little bit more flexible on the time. It starts with whatever, you know, your expectations need to be aligned out of the gate. Right? So that above any other discussion or negotiation that goes on, that needs to be crystal clear before you start. A lot of companies, as you know, especially and again, I work in the scale up stage, right? Not necessarily the startup, not necessarily the established, but that scale up stage companies and they just they don't have the resources to hire somebody full time. Right? Nor is nor is there always 40 hours a week or. You know, let's just say 40 hours, right? We know it's more, but there's there's not always 40 hours a week of work.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Right, right.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

you done. So, you know, it's structured in the way where, hey, you can bring in someone with a high level of expertise. At an affordable price for what your company can afford, right? hours are always something that you know, clients want because that's what they attribute time to money, right? Really the role in a fractional role, you're really paying for knowledge, right? So the time is going to vary, but the knowledge is what you're paying for. Um, I had a good friend of mine that's also a me story of, um, If you picture this large dam, right? Think like Hoover Dam in the U. S. or, you know, some other dam that has a leach, right? And there's water coming in. And, you know, they have their maintenance staff that tried to fix the leak. Couldn't do it. Right? They spent a hundred hours trying to fix it. No dice. They brought in, you know, whoever, the Army Corps of Engineers to take a look at it. They couldn't fix it. Right? They spent a hundred hours on it. luck, right? this one guy comes in, a consultant that they hired. He comes up to the dam that's still leaking after all of this work that's been done, walks up to it, takes a look, puts one screw into the dam, it, puts a screwdriver in his pocket. He's done. He hands the person, you know, the invoice for whatever it was, 100, 000 to do that. And the guy's like, I'm not paying you 100, 000. You know, it took you two minutes to fix it. And the response was, well, you're actually paying for my knowledge to fix it because you brought so many other resources in here that were not able to do it. And I came in and fixed your problem, and that's what you're paying for. It's not time. So sometimes it's that educational piece that you're really paying for knowledge and not time, which again, some clients, they need maybe an hour a week just to like, hey, let's realign your values. What's going on? What challenges are you seeing? Let's talk about those. And then they go and do that, right? Or, Okay. Delegate to their staff to do it. Others. It's a couple days a week, right? So it varies depending on the need of the client and what they have around them from a team perspective.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Yeah, I love that analogy. Thank you for sharing that. And it makes me think of, you know, I talk to people about coaching, like you're not paying me for my time. Like we kind of talk about it in hours. Cause that's a common unit everyone understands, but you're, you're paying for access to me and my knowledge and my specialty in this area. So we're not talking about time. Um, similarly, if someone's listening, I often say like you as a leader, like you're managing to results. Like you're managing to the outcome. And so if you can get yourself and your team there, that's what matters. So in your example, like fixing the leak, like you're managing to that outcome. So don't talk about the minutia where it doesn't need to be talked about. So that's a great point that you highlighted.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah, that's kind of like the earlier example, right? If I can improve your company 100, 000 in profit, right? I could do that in an hour, or it takes me 40 hours,

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Yeah.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

the same result, right? So, um, you know, if you're paying me a fraction of that to do that, you're, you're still getting the same result out of it. You'd probably be happier if it took an hour. All right, then that's more profit in the future for you to have. So, um, it's again, it's the way that it really probably needs to be looked at, but I know traditionally, and you know, the old school companies and some of the old school mentality is like, okay, 40 hours a week, you got to have your butt in the seat at the office at the desk, right? it's just, it's different. And especially from a fractional side, cause like you had said, it's, it's about outcomes and about the information and knowledge you can bring to their. Their organization.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

So I'm really curious. So let's say I'm just going to throw out a number here. You have like five companies you're working for. Um, you know, a chief of staff, I'll, I always say you have to build relationships with your principal and then build bridges with the leadership team and really getting ingrained in things. And so how do you do that across five companies? And I think my specific question is how do you. Um, how do you, or how are you introduced to the rest of the leadership teams? Let's say you're speaking to the principal during that discovery process. And then like, yes, we want to bring you on Scott. Like what happens next? Can, like, who are you to these other team members?

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah. And I always start off by saying I'm like the least threatening chief of staff or operating officer you found because I don't want anyone else's job. Right? Um, the thought process that goes in a lot of times when someone new is coming in from the outside and kind of a fractional role or in, you know, one of these consult consultancy roles is that they're really coming to trim the workforce. Right there.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Yeah.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

for efficiencies. They're trying to figure out who they can get rid of and stuff like that. So, um, I have that conversation with the founder or the principal first on like, hey, here's how we should introduce it where it's like, hey, I've been brought in as, uh, you know, of staff to help make things better with the company. Right. And. No matter how well you kind of get that first message out there, there's still always those other connotations, right? As to what's going on. So I really make it a point, and again, thank goodness for technology, it makes it easier to build those relationships. But, like to what I said earlier, and gaining that trust with the principal as well, it's I'm listening, right? Uh, tell me your problems. Tell me what challenges you have. Tell me what you like about your job, what you don't like. Um, how are things working? These kind of things. Because if you, again, we're all people, right? It doesn't matter what your job is. And I always say that organizations are built from the bottom up instead of the top down. So most of the front end workers that actually do the job that makes the business go, they've not, the executive team doesn't talk to them. That doesn't happen a lot. So the fact that you're taking time to speak with them and understand what their job is like and what their day to day is like, you can start to build those relationships, right? And then you kind of bring work your way back up the scale where you're just doing the same thing, right? You're listening. Right. Let me understand. And from taking that standpoint of understanding and learning from them versus me coming in and telling you what to do, right? That doesn't work. Um, it starts to build that trust. And again, kind of like when we talked about initially, right? That founder of a company is a genius and what they do. Um, I'm not the genius. So someone working line work in a factory, right? They're the genius and what they do, right? They can tell me everything that I need to know, uh, to help me look at things, you know, holistically. How do I bring these things together and patch it that way? So that's the process I take. Because again, you, principal will introduce you a thousand different ways, no matter how you discuss it, but you really have to earn the trust of everybody there. And you have to do that one at a time.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Yeah. And then when I love the listening part, and I love that you've emphasized that because it is so, so important. And so many people just like skim over that or don't do it or like, kind of give it a check, check. I checked that off the list, but you really need to engage at that level. And, um, I understand wanting to go in and make a difference, improve yourself and make impact right away. But you don't know anything when you're first going there. So you have a lot to learn. Um, and, uh, I'm wondering though, uh, At what point or how do you move from, okay, I have done the listening tour. I've really asked thoughtful questions. I really engage with people at that level. And now I am going to start putting some things in play or at least recommending some initiatives. Um, how does that transition work?

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

yeah, it's kind of the same way, right? You're going to have that discussion with leadership. 1st, like, here's what I've identified. Here's what I think we should do to change. But then I take that same approach, right? I work bottom up again discuss. Hey, here's here's what I'm hearing. Here's what I'm seeing. Here's some thoughts on on how I feel we can improve this, but let me have your feedback. Like, why will this work? Why won't it work start to pressure test it? Right? Because again, making some connections on things. We've heard that may not really be connected. So going back for feedback really helps to reinforce. Yes. Am I on the right track? Or no, I'm kind of off. Um, but again, change is hard, right? So anytime, even if you've got the best solution. who their day to day is going to change

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Yeah.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

some level of resistance there Even if they know their job could be better Um, or the company could be done more efficiently or communication would be better any change is tough, right? so having them involved in that process is The biggest key that i've found because now they're buying into what's being done and If they, if they buy in and they do what the solution is right one, we can learn and change as we go. But that creates the kind of the buy in and then everyone you then reinforce again that you're there to make things better. Right? So now they're an ally to you. Now they will. You've also built a beautiful bridge where now they'll proactively come to you

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Ah.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Hey, I've been noticing this problem. Or, um, what if we did this instead? Right. Where you start to build those open loops of feedback with people. So, um, that's that's important. And then work your way back up and continue to get that buy in. And then by the time you get back to the top and what you've done, you can then start to show those results that are going on in the day to day work.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

When they start coming to you is the telltale sign of like what you, what you've been doing is working when they come to you. And my personal favorite is when someone comes and confides in you and it's like, okay, this is now an established relationship. But I love, I love the process you just outlined. So you know, listening, listening, listening, starting from the bottom up and going through that whole phase of things and then circling back with, okay, now I've taken all this in I'm proposing we do this. And I love the question, why will this work and why will this not work? And starting from the bottom up again and going through that whole process. So that was fantastic.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah. and another thing to go through as well is, um, I always say when I kind of design a job or a process where I'm improving something, I, I don't want to put somebody in a box, I don't want that box tightly closed. I will help make the box. But I'm going to leave the top open, right? So, because that's where greatness comes from, and that's where new ideas come from. When you go just outside of the boundaries of kind of that box that you're in. in going through that process, you also have to let them know, like, Hey, mistakes are okay, right? And I want you to experiment a little bit, right? So, it is great that they come and confide in you, right? But you have to also make sure that every time they confide in you, you're not just giving them the answer. Right. You have to, Hey, well how would you go about this, right? How do you think you should fix it? Well, what about this? Have you thought about this way? Um, and help them get there because again, that's gonna give you team that is more, you know, high performing team. That's how they behave. And again, one of our big goals in the chief of staff role is to kind of filter things out before it gets to the top right? So have problems resolve themselves the right way before it gets to the top. And this helps. Everybody know that it's okay to make mistakes and it's okay to experiment. So I'm going to solve my problems before get down the path too high. I'm, I'm more empowered to, to solve those problems,

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Yeah. And I, I think you hit on something, um, that's important, which is empowering and enabling people to be self sufficient. So, um, it is kind of, you don't want to give them the answer. You know, in emergency situations where like the house is on fire, of course, like give them the answer, but it's, you know, what's your recommendation or what are you considering or what are you seeing in this situation and getting them to think about that on their own. Um, I have a chief of staff who's helping her leadership team, um, Step up so her CEO can lift out and do other things not in the day to day operations, but they're used to being told exactly what to do. So it is asking those questions and getting them to be self sufficient. And that actually makes me wonder. So I would say for all chiefs of staff, it's important to enable your team in that way. But is that especially important for you because you might not be there for as long as a full time chief of staff or how does that work in terms of the scope and duration of your engagement?

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah, I think regardless, that's kind of what you want to do, right? It's always that, um, what's that old saying? You always want to leave things a little bit better than they were when you got there, right? It's the same thing. Even if you're at a fractional perspective or a full time perspective. still trying to elevate the leadership team and the people around you. that's a core. Is it more essential in a fractional role? I don't know. Maybe. Um, sometimes, sometimes a nice advantage of the fractional role is like you're not involved in, A lot of the day to day nuances that go on. like, when you're coming into the situation, it's kind of like a little bit of a reset button for companies. if they're dealing with some internal struggles or internal fires, then you're coming in, sometimes that disarms everybody right away, which doesn't happen if you're in the day to day world, right? So, sometimes it's an advantage to come in as a fractional.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

And how, how long are your typical engagements? Is that, does that vary across the board? Or is it like, no, I have, typically I want to work with someone for this amount of time.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah, it varies. Um, you know, sometimes it's it's a fractional role until they grow to a certain point. And then, hey, you need somebody full time. Um, then you can help bring on that person full time. sometimes it's like, hey, we just, you know, there is our maybe someone we have today is needs to step out for a couple months.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Oh yeah.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

in and kind of fill the role for a little bit? And happens. Um, and, you know, other times they just have a, maybe a specific problem that they just need help getting through. So that would be a shorter end engagement, but it, it kind of varies, right? It's, it's nice to have a little bit of a mix of both, but it's also fun to work long term with somebody because then you get to see the growth over a longer term and you get to see higher growth as, as things go on.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Yeah. And if, if a founder's listening or a board member's listening or an executive listening, and they're going, okay, this, this sounds interesting. Um, tell me more, like how does a fractional COO or chief of staff work? If I were to engage with, with you, Scott, what would you say?

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah, it's like, uh, if you feel you're putting out fires all day, you feel like you're as a founder are stuck dealing with the day to day stuff, um, versus thinking strategically making those relationships, developing new product, whatever it is, um, or you're just at a point where you're like, Hey, this thing's getting too big, too fast. And I don't know what to do, or we've been stagnant for a little bit. Like, how do we take the next step? Like, those are the 4 indicators that I would say, it's time to have a conversation. Right? So, um, where, that's usually the kind of the light bulb goes off for them that, hey, I need some help on this, and I'm not exactly sure who to turn to, but, um, uh, fractional chief of staff is a good option at that point.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Gotcha. And can you give some examples of what you actually do? You mentioned, I'm not so much in the day to day stuff and obviously not asking you to give like client specific information, but just in general, like what types of projects or initiatives or things would you take on?

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah, a lot of times it's just kind of, uh, I call it a strategic realignment, right? You get a company that has been going on for, say, 1 to 3 years. They, they've built their company, you know. They're bootstrapping it along the way. Um, they've hired a few people, you see with a lot of younger companies is hey, I have like eight different products I use, um, from a tech side, and I have people doing things that are probably outside of what they're supposed to be doing, and really don't know what the organization should look like. Um, it's really realigning all of those things, right? And sure it's all in the same direction and instituting some like, you know, basic principles, like, hey, let's set our objectives and our priorities for quarter one, right? What are our priorities for the year and making sure everyone is aligned with the company priorities, but then every individual should have those priorities or objectives to write. And I like to make sure that the. to top of the organ organization knows what each person's 3 objectives are for the quarter because then 1 that helps them prioritize their time. and 2, it helps. Hey, Emily, I know you're working towards this and I just came across some information or met someone here. need to connect them with you. Right? So it's rebuilding those bridges and it's really like taking the. Taking the ship that's just been sailing around in circles in the ocean for a while and really like, hey. Let's make sure we got all our cargo. Make sure we got the right staff on board, right? Where are we? Where's our map? Like, where are we navigating

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

We're going that way. Everyone wrote that way.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

and start to plot the course, right? So the rowers need to do this. The people on, and I don't know boat terms, so. Won't roast me about it. So whoever's doing the sale is going to do that, right? The navigator is going to do this and those together. So find when I step in, it's really realigning things to the way that they should be so that you can create that foundation so that they can then grow and scale the right way.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

And I think, you know, you've talked about, um, when you develop that relationship and that partnership with someone and they don't know what. You know, year two, three, four is supposed to look like you will actually help, you know, here's how I would align the budget to what you're trying to do. If they're talking, I think I want to do this. And it's like, okay, that's one option. What I've seen work well in your situation is this, this, and this to throw that out on the table.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah. And, and again, it's like, I, sometimes I, I, well, not sometimes I do have a different version of. longer term goals are what you're trying to achieve, right? And I know this part isn't new, but I like to grow exponentially and think exponentially because it's easier than a linear path, right? So that's how I start to like, one, think about it myself, but to start to educate those in that organization as to, Hey, let's think this way. But when I, and again, goal setting sometimes drives me crazy because everyone's like, Hey, do the, keep it simple goals, right? Um, And make them achievable, but come on now, we're just checking boxes. You might as well just make it a task, right? So what typically someone would define as a stretch goal. like to make those the quarterly objectives, right? And when we're talking about the 1 year, 3 or 5 year goals. The way I like to do it is different. I like to set a goal that maybe you didn't think we can achieve, right? I don't think we, you know, a lot of founders again, just using easy number a million dollars is our company. Let's get to 2 million. Right? What I would say is set your goal for 5 million or 10 million and give yourself 3 years to get there. Right? So if you can achieve it on your 1, if you miss, that's okay. What did we learn? Right. What can we change on our path based on what we learned on not making the goal this year, um, to get there and to it's, it's okay not to reach a goal. If you're reaching every goal all the time, they're not high enough. Right? giving yourself, you know, 3 chances to hit that. What would be typically a 3 year target. Let's start year one with that goal, right? Let's try to make that happen. And if it does, great. If not, okay. Because a lot of times you'll set that goal and as a principal, you'll be like, okay, we're on path to hit two million this year. That's good. Like we don't have to change anything else. Like let's just stay this course, but, you could have grown faster. And since things have been built the right way, you can grow to scale too. So you limit yourself sometimes. So that's

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

do,

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

too.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

you do. What I like about that approach is just like, just me hearing that example. I'm like, Oh, if I'm trying to go for 3 million, like the way I'm thinking changes, the decisions I make, the scale I'm thinking about, like everything tilts. So just even having that mentality is like, Oh, that's, that's much different than 1 million. So, uh, I like that. I like that perspective. Um, Scott, we've covered a lot. Is there anything else important that you are dying to get out there and make sure people know this thing? I

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

there's so much, right? There's so much. I, I think, you know, the one thing that I, um, I fall back on and I know, and again, I, my career is weird, right? I was in pro sports before where things were measured black and white. You won or you lost and that was it. It shouldn't be that way in your organization, right? With your company, it shouldn't be Windsor, Windsor losses. And I know, again, this isn't stealing anything new, but it's kind of that old, um, kind of thought process of, Hey, do you think you could get 1 percent better every day? Right, like we're talking about a tiny amount, right? That sounds very achievable and those add up over time to create greater progress. So I want to say when you're growing an organization, um, you need to bring in a chief of staff, got to measure the progress. You can't just measure black and white. Um, and sometimes you don't see that right away. Sometimes that takes time. But I think if all of us at the end of the year would reflect back on what we've done personally, you look at Emily from a year ago to Emily. Now, you probably there's a lot of things I'm better at, right? And organizations need to do that too, um, and learn from that process.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

love that. Thank you for saying that. Cause a lot of people go for like the flashy, you know, flash bang stuff. And it's like, look, it might not be sexy, but it kind of is like consistency and compounding. Holy, holy crap. Like that's powerful. Like you want to talk about exponential growth over time, like set yourself up with that. So

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

And that. should really be how we're measuring things. Right. Because, um, if you take, if you're improving yourself and improving your company, the, the, uh, the outcome is going to take care of itself and that's an old bill Walsh book for another day. But, um, you gotta, you gotta take care of those things internally and then the rest of it's going to work out.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

beautiful Scott, if someone's listening and wants to reach out to you or find out more information, where's the best place to go.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

Yeah. Best place would be, uh, my website start there. Adams consulting firm. com. Um, I'm heavily involved with Lincoln LinkedIn, but of course, Scott Adams is a, is a. It's tough to find me there, but if you go to com, you can me there, set up a consultation or even view my LinkedIn profile from there too. I

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Beautiful. And we'll have your LinkedIn profile in the show notes and your website as well. But Scott, thank you so much.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

appreciate it. I love being on here and talking. It goes so fast. Um,

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

It does.

scott-adams_1_12-04-2024_130255:

you. So I appreciate the time.

emily-sander_1_12-04-2024_120256:

Beautiful.