Leveraging Leadership

Why Consulting Remains a Top Career Choice for Ambitious Professionals

• Emily Sander • Season 1 • Episode 205

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Vivek Modi shares his journey from engineering in Africa to consulting at Ernst and Young and Roland Berger, and now to Chief of Staff for two CEOs at a fast-growing German startup. He compares consulting and Chief of Staff roles, breaks down how he builds trust with senior leaders, and offers practical advice on influencing without authority. Vivek also highlights the importance of clarifying responsibilities before taking on a Chief of Staff job and talks about using LinkedIn for mentoring and connecting.


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Who Am I?

If we haven’t yet before - Hiđź‘‹ I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want. 

 

Time Stamps:

00:46 Vivek's Journey to Chief of Staff
01:53 Transition to Consulting
02:45 Chief of Staff Role Explained
03:30 Consulting vs. Chief of Staff
08:48 Influencing Without Authority
09:53 Building Trust and Relationships
22:06 Operational vs. Strategic Work
28:02 Supporting Two CEOs
37:14 Mentorship and Giving Back
38:59 Future Aspirations and Conclusion

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

Our guest today is Vivek Modi, and he comes from a strong consulting background, is currently chief of staff and also works with advising startups. So we will hear all about that. But Vivek, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

Thank you so much for having me, Emily. Looking forward

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

Beautiful. And to start us out with, can you just tell us a little bit about your journey to Chief of Staff? A quick kind of background on you,

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

to the show. Happy to share. Um, so, I have had a very, let's say, uh, diverse, uh, work experiences and roles. Um, I say that in my first life, um, I was an engineer. Um, uh, uh, yeah, brown person, uh, from India, what do you expect, right? Well, uh, yeah, confirming all the stereotypes, but no, uh, really enjoyed, uh, being an engineer. Uh, that's what I studied in my bachelor's and then worked in Africa for two and a half years as an engineer. Um, and I was, uh, reporting to the CFO. So that was the point where I got in on the business side of engineering and, uh, started, uh, getting a bit more insights on business, uh, uh, related, uh, areas. And that interested me way more, um, than, uh, just engineering, uh, just the spectrum, um, uh, of it, the responsibility that was there, uh, along with the role and so on. So I started business, um, did my MBA, uh, from TU Munich. Um, and then walked in consulting, uh, for a few years, uh, Ernest and Young and Roland Berger, and then ended up here, um, uh, as a chief of staff. Um, Consulting was so what I do right now has a lot in common with what I did as a consultant as well. Um, and also some similarities to what I, uh, did as a, uh, project manager, engineering project manager, uh, helping the CFO, uh, implementing projects. So all those, uh, live stations had a lot, uh, in what I do right now. Um, and, uh, It's also becoming one of the class, uh, classy or let's say, uh, common exits, uh, right now in Europe, uh, after consulting, uh, chief of staff is a very broad spectrum. Um, of responsibilities under that title. So we'll have to get into what exactly, um, this path leads and what responsibilities do I have as a chief of staff? But, uh, yeah, it was, uh, as I said, rather a classic exit, um, after working into consulting. Happy to dive deeper into one or the other stations or yeah, answer any questions that you may have. Yeah. And consulting, I was about eight months in the

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

So Africa to Germany, you've been, you've been all over.

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

UK as well. So, uh, yes, indeed.

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

And you mentioned, um, kind of a, uh, a common exit. So in, in Europe, did you say, so chief of staff in Europe, common exit would be to consulting or vice versa.

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

Um, I think getting into consulting, um, from chief of staff is chief of staff role is, um, maybe not that common, uh, but the other way around from consulting to chief of staff, uh, is, is more of a common exit that, um, Or transition that I have seen, uh, the reason behind that is consulting. They do not look for a particular, uh, uh, experience, um, in the, in the, uh, initial. So, in, in, in, in, in freshers or low level, uh, let's say in junior consultant analyst level roles, uh, they have their very standard processes, uh, of recruitment, you go through case studies and, but they are not particularly looking for a, for a background. If you in Europe, uh. Okay. Uh, transitions from one role to another role or carrier, uh, drastic carrier transitions are rather, uh, less common than, uh, in the States. So we will still look, uh, into patterns, uh, of let's say consulting internships, uh, or some sort of in house consulting role. So in that sense, chief of staff role might help you to, um, Uh, your interests on type of topics to work on, uh, into consulting, but, uh, I haven't seen that many, uh, uh, transitions from, uh, COS to consulting role. Um, the other way around is, uh, yeah, rather more common.

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

And just for context, when you were at Ernst and Young, were you, An analyst level at that point, or what, where did you come in?

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

I came in as a consultant level. So it's, uh, one level because I already had some experience before, um, my MBA. So that's, uh, one level above analyst. Um, So yeah, kind of a intermediate consultant. Um,

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

Okay. And it's interesting. You mentioned it's a common exit. Cause I do see, even in the U S there's a lot of between consulting and chief of staffing, um, and people going in and out of those different roles. So just from your perspective, I'm very curious. Do you see a lot of overlap and similarities between the two roles, or is it like Emily, these things are night and day difference, or what's your take on that?

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

um, there are absolutely a lot of similarities, but at the same time, uh, there are also decent differences. Um, uh, let's talk about similarities first. Um, so I think, uh, the project based work. So, uh, as a chief of staff, you are, uh, expected to, uh, let's say be in a, in a temporarily operative, uh, role where there is a gap, uh, within the organization. So you might go in, you might look at the process or design a new process, structure a new process. Do it for a while till it gets on the automation mode and then you hand it over to to other colleagues Um when the resources are there, so this is pretty much consulting kind of role where Often big companies who can afford consultants would hire a team of people to take care of topics that are let's say Not directly taken care by one or the other functional departments um You Or, uh, when you have chief of staff or a strategy department in house, you, uh, uh, deploy those people or project management department into, uh, roles that are not assigned to, uh, or are new to, uh, uh, to the organization. Um, that's one part. Second part, uh, where there is a huge overlap is into strategy. Um, and that starts from long term planning, um, about strategy to also annual planning till OKRs, um, and then tracking the whole project management, um, uh, stuff. Um, there as well, um, there's a huge, um, uh, a huge overlap. Um, I think one McKinsey partner said once, um, that you can't improve what you, what you do. Can't track. So this tracking KPI, OKR based, uh, mentalities is heavily consulting, uh, driven, uh, or, uh, In my biased perspective, as an ex consultant originated from consulting world, um, so that mindset and, uh, you know, those, those tools and skills that one learns into consulting come, uh, very handy, uh, uh, in chief of staff, uh, role, um, stakeholder management. Influencing without authority, uh, these are also very, uh, because often chief of staffs are individual contributors, um, and dealing with leaders. So, um, these are as well, uh, these are also quite, uh, uh, these are also tasks where you as a consultant are, uh, uh, trained, uh, uh, on. These were similarities. Now, before we go into, uh, uh, what changed, uh, or what are the differences, um. Firstly, I'll give you, I have, uh, it was a bit of a monologue. So if you have any questions or, uh, any remarks before we go into differences.

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

No, that was great. I think the last thing you touched on everyone I speak with is always interested in how do I influence without direct authority because that is a very common place for a chief of staff to be in. And it's right to call out that I'm are in the same position oftentimes as well. So how did you, you mentioned like we're trained to do that. How did you go about what was your approach to, um, Interacting with with C suite colleagues with senior executives to influence decisions and get people rallied around something without having that direct. I am your boss. Therefore, I can tell you what to do.

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

Yeah, very good question, Emily. Um, so here as well, you know, uh, linking it with, uh, differences and similarities between chief of staff and consultant role. Um, often consultants are seen as someone who is, uh, behind your jobs or who is. coming in as an external,

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

Yeah,

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

tell, trying to look into your KPIs and tell you what you are not doing right. Right. So that's a typical perspective, uh, how people look at consultants. Um, so being in house already, uh, that helps a lot. Uh, so that is kind of a given plus, uh, within chief of staff role that you are not looked, uh, you're working with those colleagues every day. So there is a long term, uh, Uh, bonding with those colleagues compared to when you are a consultant and just coming as an external, uh, player, uh, so that that helps. Um, I think, uh, before you go and influence people, uh, it's important to build trust, um, and trust one in terms of relationships. Second, in terms of your capabilities. Um, so I think, uh, what helps a lot or what helped me a lot is, uh, in the first, uh, in the initial phase, not try to, let's say, um, not try to achieve this influence, uh, as my one of the first KPIs, but rather, uh, from build trust and at both the levels with your principal, as well as with the key stakeholders that the principal is working, uh, with, uh, helped a lot and in direction to build trust, I think one is your attitude and approach. So instead of, uh, phrasing it in a way that, uh, Hey, I'm looking at your KPIs and I'm responsible for OKRs. Um, and I, you know, I'm measuring what you do. Um, uh, the attitude or phrasing should be, uh, we are in the same team. And I'm helping you optimize what we are doing for the company. Um, and also phrasing it in a way and having genuinely believing it, um, I think, um, uh, makes a huge difference. Um, so, you know, instead of looking at, uh, a process and saying, yeah, this is, this doesn't work, uh, being there and optimizing this process yourself so that everyone benefits. Um, this framing and, uh, uh, helps a lot. Um, I think second, uh, that helps is how quickly you can, let's say, deliver some, some, some quick results, low hanging fruits. So first few. Weeks and months are extremely critical. Um, uh, I'm off of as a consultant, I'm a fan of, you know, believing that every day is your first day. So, uh, you still get to perform and be, uh, but, uh, especially when you're in a new setup, uh, people don't know what quality they can expect from you. Um, uh, you know, being extra diligent in first few days. Projects that you do with people, uh, is, is quite, uh, quite helpful. And then, uh, that trust, uh, comes along, uh, with, with, uh, working together. Um, that was one part. Uh, I think second part is also making it clear what comes from you and what comes from. Um, your principle. So because as a chief of staff, you are also a bit of a in a privileged position to let's say, convey the message of the CEO or your principle to the organization. You are the messenger and they're making a clear separation between what your recommendations are or what, uh, you actually want, uh, to work with, uh, or implement in the company and what your principle, uh, wants to do in letting, like, People seeing you doing this repeatedly and knowing, yeah, you do make a difference and not, you're not leveraging, uh, let's say the spotlight, um, that is there, uh, also makes, uh, makes a difference. Um, I can go also a bit more tactical on what I did, uh, let's say, uh, to do, you know, practically establish the trust and, uh, a good working setup with, uh, all my stakeholders. But, um, yeah, we'll give you, we'll take a pause here first. Mm hmm. Mm

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

But, um, you'll answer this, uh, you're going to answer this in the next thing you said, but I often hear from chiefs of staff, Emily, I don't want to keep using my principal's name. Meaning like I'm kind of hiding behind that because I want to stand on my own two feet. And I actually encourage people like, you know, you can kind of name drop your principal. In certain select points, but you don't want to make that a habit. Cause you want to say like, you know, you are coming at this, people know who you are, people know where you, what you stand for. And you have to prove that you're capable on your own and that

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

hmm.

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

things to the table on your own. And yes, you do have this very special, unique relationship with the principal, but it's not just, I'm, you know, I'm

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

Mm hmm.

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

So, um, I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about that. And maybe that's where you were going as well.

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

Absolutely. Absolutely. So, uh, yeah, establishing trust within your own capabilities. Right? Um, and, uh, that, that happens when you take ownership of projects completely on your own and phrase it as your own ideas and, um, you know, really, you know, Uh, input that is, let's say, not just driven, uh, uh, or given by, by your, uh, principle. It often sometimes means, uh, even challenging your principle, um, and standing, presenting perspectives of, uh, your stakeholders, uh, uh, VPs heads off to the principle that maybe, uh, they have difficulties in, in getting it through or something. So having your own, own, um. Uh, opinion and own perspective on take, uh, on things and standing by it. Um, you know, really going deep into topics and not just doing administrative project management of transferring message, but really, uh, going into the core of different topics, um, and building opinion on your own and then standing by the opinion. With the principal as well as with the stakeholders, um, that helps a lot. And, uh, yeah, I, I think I'd, I'd strongly, strongly recommend, um, uh, any chief of staff, uh, colleague who is, is, yeah, uh, new, uh, in the role to, uh, take a stand, um, on your own positions.

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

Yeah. And I remember one time when I was chief of staff, it was, um, kind of late in my tenure. So people kind of knew what chief of staff was and what I was about and, um, that I was my own person, but we, we were in this leadership meeting and we were discussing this one topic and I like. Disagreed with my principal. Like I wholeheartedly just like disagreed with, with the CEO and I voiced my opinion and everyone was going back and forth and the team was kind of split on which direction to go. And, um, then like a day or two later, the CEO made a decision and it was to go in a different direction than I was advocating for, but then it became my job to execute to that plan as best as we possibly could. And I think. In a lot of ways, it almost built up respect for, for me in the, in the role of chief of staff, because people saw me disagree and voice my opinion. But then once the decision was made, I was rallying the troops around this. How can we best execute that? So I liked that you brought that up. Cause there is this kind of dynamic between you want to have your own voice and have your own opinion, but you also like, you make stuff happen when, when it's time for the rubber to meet the road.

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

Absolutely. I think this is true for almost every leadership role that is there in the company. So take any topic, right? There is always a difference opinion and that's very healthy for the company that we are looking at one topic from all different perspectives possible, all different expertise involved. Uh, but once, uh, the decision is clear, the, the guideline is clear, then, uh, we all agree to that and we are just, uh, you know, trying to, uh, implement it in the best way possible. We make that decision our own, uh, we leave that. Uh, and I think, uh, as much, this is like equally true for, uh, all the VPs, all strategic slash leadership roles. especially for chief of staff, um, role as well, um, would, would, yeah, completely agree on that, that side. So it's, it's a very healthy balance, uh, between let's say during brainstorming phase and having your own ideas and then, uh, uh, accepting, uh, uh, the final decisions and then driving it really, really through. Um,

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

wasn't an antagonistic discussion, but I like that you just to touch on it. Like this is healthy discussions. It's like where good ideas come from. Cause we challenge each other and iron sharpens iron and that whole thing. So any other practical tips on how to build trust? Cause people love this stuff. Like, okay, I know I'm supposed to build trust and trust is the foundation and all those quotes and nice things, which are true, but like, how do you actually do that?

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

so let's talk about, you know, principles and about, uh, key stakeholders. Uh, so other than the principles, uh, uh, VPs or, uh, heads, uh, whomsoever, uh, you're working with. Um. I think with principle, um, again, coming back to identifying low hanging fruits, um, in first few, uh, in the initial time of your, uh, of your, of your new role, um, and second is also constant and open feedback. Um, so what we used to, and this again comes from consulting best practices, is we used to do weekly feedback sessions, uh, in the beginning of the projects. Um, and then, uh, once, you know, you understand the working style expectations of each other better, then you can reduce the frequency. We all have one on one setup, uh, in a lot of startups and nowadays in many companies, but often, um, it's, uh, the frequency is like the CEO has a lot of stuff to do. So the frequency is often six weeks and so on. And that's fine. That's for a normal setup. It's, it's okay. You also have to manage the time invested in, uh, in just feedback. Uh, but in the beginning, it's very important that, uh, high frequency of communication and feedback is there. Um, and similarly, uh, I also, so I do not have direct, um, uh, let's say functional topics that I'm working on with, uh, my key stakeholders, the VPs. But I nevertheless have, uh, set up. Uh, meeting where we talk about things. Um, so it's. With feedback, but at the same time, what they need from CEOs, um, what they need from other departments and so on. So I, in those meetings, those meetings, basically, I'm trying to address their needs, um, uh, and trying to help them in, in reaching, uh, those goals that might mean. Uh, taking follow up from the CEO. That might mean, uh, uh, coordinating, uh, uh, more or other departments to, towards, uh, one project that has, uh, been, uh, there in pipeline for a while. Um, and there, when they see, you know, that, uh, you are offering a lot of value, um, and you're genuinely interested in, you know, bringing things forward, um, then the attitude changes. Then when you, uh, also push things forward within. with that person, uh, it is considered, uh, you know, uh, it's, it's looked at from, from a very different perspective, um, uh, rather health than again, uh, someone just telling you what to do. So, uh, finding areas where you can, uh, contribute quickly, uh, low hanging fruits, um, and making lives of other people better. Uh, uh, that's, that's, I would say the key and really, uh, in, in first few, uh, months, uh, Keeping an eye on topics that where you can add value, um, that that helps building trust.

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

Well, I want to highlight a few things you said because you've said some great things. First of all, if you can make someone's life easier, that goes a long way, right? When you're first meeting someone is like, Oh, like the first thing you do is you make my world better. Okay. No, I'll certainly interact with you more. Um, and I think you've mentioned a couple of times, but like genuinely wanting to help. Like, I'm not here to point fingers or say, gotcha. My job is to make you successful and, and, and

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

Mm hmm.

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

even better than it already is. So I think when that authenticity comes across and you're like, look, I'm not, my job is to make you look really good. That also has a different tone to it. I love your. Love your quote on every day is my first day. And

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

Mm

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

liked the framing of when you build trust, you're building trust in terms of the relationships and also your capabilities. So that's kind of a nice framework to go, all the way back to, um, To what is not similar between chief of staff and consulting. Maybe we can touch on that and like

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

hmm. Mm

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

question would be where do you come down on time and effort spent on strategic activities like long-term strategic activities and decisions versus tactical and practical, like hands on keyboard type of work,

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

hmm. Mm hmm. Uh, just to get clarity on the second question, uh, you mean percentage wise, right? How much time is spent or

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

how much time is spent and then kind of. Like, as a consultant, where were you? What was the percentage breakdown that as chief of staff, where do you see a difference, if any?

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

so, uh, consulting again is a huge industry. So I have worked with, worked at two consulting companies, um, and in different types of consulting role. So, depending on that, um, operation, how much operational tasks you do, uh, changes, um, like Big Four, EY, uh, Ernst Young, uh, KPMG, and so on, um, they are decent. So their strength is more on operational side, uh, but strategy consulting, uh, segments, McKinsey, BCG, Bain, Roland Berger, Oliver Wayman, and so on, uh, they are purely at analytical slash strategy level. So, uh, let's talk about that segment as that was my last, uh, station. It's 100 percent strategic work as a consultant, there is barely anything operational, uh, there's operational within your team, uh, organizing stuff and, uh, you know, running the strategy project. But, uh, at the end, um, your core, uh, task, uh, is 100%, um, strategy, uh, analytical, conceptual. And, uh, that is also, uh, That's the core of strategy consulting business, right? So that's your bread and butter and that's what you do, uh, the whole day, day in, day out. Um, and the difference between, uh, from consulting to chief of staff, and that's also one of the reasons why. Uh, I wanted to transition to this role, um, is because here you do have a bit more operational responsibilities and, uh, in some case, even 360 degree responsibility. So you do not just analyze and see what can be optimized. Uh, of course you do that, but then you make sure that that happens. Uh, that, uh, this optimization, this, uh, savings potential, this growth potential that, uh, you have theoretically on paper, uh, uh, analyzed is, is, is there. Um, and that's, uh, uh, fascinating. It can also be a bit, uh, let's say, uh, sometimes a bit, um, time consuming and tedious because at the end, then, uh, of course, implementation is a longer phase than just doing strategy. So, uh, to, uh, it requires a bit more patience to, till you get the results and so on, but that's a, that's a big difference, uh, compared to consulting and chief of staff. And if we talk about percentage, as I said, strategy, consulting, a hundred percent, uh, strategy. Chief of staff. This might vary compared to, uh, for every individual, depending on, again, and on what spectrum of chief of staff, uh, you are, um, after the strategy consulting exit. Um, uh, I would say 60 percent is still strategy work and 40 percent is implementation.

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

Okay. All right.

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

Um, Uh,

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

split. I've heard people go, Oh, I'm like 99 percent in tactical and practical and 1 percent sometimes I think about strategy. I'm like, Ooh, That's a, that's skewed quite a lot in one direction.

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

uh, as I said, it depends a lot on, um, what the, what the organization needs and how they have conceptualized, uh, the role. Uh, for me it was important that I remain at, uh, like strategy has to play a decent role in my daily work. Uh, I enjoy doing that work. Um, uh, it's also my strength. Um, so I, I, uh, wanted that very clearly. And, um, uh, it's also maybe a bit of special situation here. I. I'm a chief of staff for two CEOs. So I have two principals, uh, which is not that common. You are like shadowing one person. So you often are, you often have, uh, let's say just one principal. Uh, and that kind of, uh, you know, um, makes my role a bit different. And that's why there's a bit more strategic aspect. I'm also a in house consultant, slash in house, uh, strategy, head of strategy. Um, so I help. Uh, CEO making the five year plan. Um, and that is, uh, as a consultant, you would employ a team of four people working for three months just doing a lot of analysis. So doing that in house also consumes a lot of time and energy resource from my side. Um, and then there is, uh, less left for technical operational, uh, tasks. Um, and, uh, that is why the split is like that, but it again depends on, um, you know, what, uh, in what, Cycle, we are like, we just did this year, five years planning. We would not do next year, the five years planning. So next year, some strategy work might be, uh, the share might vary a bit. Uh, but that's, uh, at least 50%, I want it to be still analytical. Um, so it's also on, on you, uh, you have to drive it because that is never, uh, lack of things to do and, uh, yeah, you, you have to communicate it with your principal. Clearly you have to see where you can add value. Um, oftentimes it is the case that strategy work is not needed and things just needs to be done. So, uh, then yeah, you gotta just be in that position and, and, uh, do what's needed.

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

Yes, for sure. So you do have a pretty rare setup. Okay. Uh, supporting two CEOs. I've had chiefs of staff support, um, C suite members, but not two CEOs. So maybe talk a little bit more about kind of the scope and how your role of chief of staff is set up.

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

Um, so. Basically, the company, uh, it's a bootstrap company. It evolved to quite a classic startup story in a way to two young guys, uh, um, founding something after university and, uh, the company evolved. Um, and they, um, they did for a long time, a lot of things together. Um, so they founded the company together, uh, that's the titles are also both CEOs. Um, there is no COO or CFO, uh, even though departments are divided. Uh, uh, so titles are slightly misleading. I would say they're not updated, uh, with the, with the growth of the organization and time. Um, but. So one, uh, person is more in direction of c uh, COO and, uh, CFO combined. And the other person, uh, the principal I have is more in the direction of, uh, chief Product Officer, um, and chief marketing officer, uh, combined. Um, and, uh, that's the setup, uh, and. You know, they have been growing at double digit rate every year. So things have been working well, uh, for, uh, for the company. Um, um, and then they decided to be a bit more professional. So first they hired the level of heads off and VPs. So people with a ton of experience, uh, in the industry, uh, in their individual functions. Uh, and. Then, uh, things started becoming a bit more chaotic, um, because, uh, the organization grew just naturally. Um, uh, founders had not worked, uh, before in, uh, one or the other organization so that they could implement process and systems. And suddenly we are back to where Double or triple the size. Uh, so managing those people, uh, working with people who are way more experienced, uh, uh, and experts in their field, uh, things started becoming difficult and that they, uh, identified that they could, uh, take some, some help, uh, because they strengthen mostly functional departments, but not their own selves as CEOs or their own teams, right?

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

yes.

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

that's where they, uh, identified the need that we need to strengthen core leadership team. Um, and, uh, uh, then often every company in their stage reached, reaches this, this, uh, critical point where founders, uh, uh, realized that, uh, they are the bottleneck in terms of resources and they need to, uh, you know, uh, get more things done. Um, um, and, uh, And sometimes you hire, um, uh, consultants. Sometimes you hire, uh, a third, um, uh, COO or someone who can, you know, join in the C suit and help. Sometimes you hire chief of staff. And in our case, they decided for chief of staff. And that's how, uh, that's how I, uh, joined.

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

Do you happen to know how they heard about chief of staff? Like why they wanted a chief of staff?

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

Uh, yes. So in Germany, um, there was also, so we, we used to have, um, um, Uh, a role called, uh, referent for the Geschäftsführung and that means, um, kind of an assistant or founders associate. Literal translation would be founders associate. Um, so somewhere such kind of role did exist, uh, in German, uh, ecosystem. Also in politics, uh, this role is quite common, um, but recently it has been very popular in startup world as well. And, um, uh, if I remember correctly, one of the CEOs, uh, just researched what role, uh, makes, uh, more sense. So they didn't want someone, uh, who would just, uh, Go in the meetings and take notes and do project management. They wanted, uh, some more strategic input and, um, who can get into topics a bit more deeper and help the organization, um, uh, as a whole and be a, uh, so, so, uh, there they, they identified that the chief of staff title, um, works well. Uh, I think initially they had founders associate or in German as the German title for it, the referent, uh, for referent in for Geschäftsführung, uh, and that didn't work out that well. So the people that they were getting, uh, or the last, uh, person, uh, who was here, um, that set up didn't, didn't deliver much. Um, and then they learned from the experience and, um, uh, then, uh, yeah, uh, upgraded the title to Chief of Staff.

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

Yes. And it's funny. I work with founders and management teams at all these different phases of the company that you're talking about. So start up to, Oh, we're more than like five to 10 people. So we can't just stand up, you know, over the cubicle and kind of talk about something we were beyond that. And then other inflection points that come further down the line with, you know, 50 people, a hundred people doing, you know,

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

Um,

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

and I love how you, how you described it, which is many founders and CEOs will, will build up and develop their teams and functional areas, but they kind of miss doing that for themselves and their leadership. And when they come to that critical juncture, that is where you would bring in a chief of staff. So I think that's a nice way to describe that, but, um, yes, any advice you would give to someone. Going from consulting to being a chief of staff. So following the same path you did, is there something where, oh my gosh, if I would have known this at the beginning, life would have been so much easier.

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

I'd say clarifying the responsibilities and understanding your role, uh, during the interview process, um, is, is very critical, um, depending on which, uh, size, uh, of company you join. So now, um, also in big companies, the role is becoming very popular. um, so like chief of staff role, history and in, um, uh, White House. And then, you know, all across the world in politics, the role became a bit more popular and then in startup world slash tech ecosystem. But now in Germany, we also have incorporates, uh, so Siemens, uh, uh, One of the largest German company has a chief of staff role. So depending on, you know, uh, how mature the company is, um, I think, uh, if, if you are going for mature companies, I think it's, it's, it's pretty fine. But if you're going for, let's say startups or smaller companies, um, then really understanding what the founder, uh, needs, uh, from the role, because, uh, depending on company, you. Could be doing complete different things, uh,

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

It

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

expect, you know, a polar apart from, uh, one another, each other. And, uh, that's really, uh, getting this clarity, um, uh, during the interview process, uh, and then questioning yourself, whether, uh, this is something really that you want to want to do. And, uh, you want to add value, uh, asking yourself, whether what you want to do in next five years, uh, Whether the step that you're taking would, would, uh, you know, contribute to your, your goal or not. Um, that's, that's, I think the, the core thing, um, that, that I'd say, because during, as I was interviewing, I have had a lot of experiences, funny experiences where people just put titles, like, Chief of Staff, I don't know, somewhere they found it. Sounds sexy, let's use it. Sounds better than Founders Associate. Uh, you know, maybe you attract Also, sometimes people just put titles to attract better talent, which is not a bad strategy. But then the responsibilities and intellectual challenges and, yeah, what the role Uh, the learnings, what, what the role has to offer other than, uh, monetary compensation to the person also needs to match, uh, with the title. And, um, so I think, uh, there I'd, I'd, uh, uh, encourage everyone to do a decent due diligence. Um, that's one thing. Um, I think second is, uh, as I said, chief of staff. does mean, um, uh, you, you are the, you are the hotfix guy, right?

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

Yes.

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

You, something doesn't work. You go and fix it. Uh, you are that plumber, you are that electrician. So you, uh, you, you know, um, um, so this, this, um, People have to like, you have to make sure for yourself that, uh, this is something you would enjoy doing. Because compared to just analyzing, uh, or reading theory on how to, um, uh, let's say finding the best, uh, optimal way or best tool to, in theory, to, to fix the pipe and then doing it yourself are two different skills. Um, um, so, so,

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

that term before, but I love it. Like a chief of staff in the startup phase is absolutely an executive hot fixer. Like that is what you're doing all day long. So that's amazing. Um, Vivek, I know that mentorship is important to you. So

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

Mm-hmm

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

on mentorship and how do you approach that?

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

Mm-hmm Um. So I have been blessed, um, uh, throughout my career to have amazing people, um, willing to mentor, um, um, uh, me. Um, and, uh, yeah, I, I still benefit from that, uh, a lot of, uh, consulting partners. Uh, when I was at the university, um, I could directly get in touch with them who have, like, 10 years of experience in consulting and who could, uh, just shape, uh, answer almost every question that I had and, you know, provide really concrete guidance from their experience. And, um, so, yeah, uh, I do that a lot, uh, reach out to people, uh, use university networks, use, uh, uh, uh, alumni, uh, networks and so on. And, and, you know, benefit a lot from just experiences of people. Um, and I try to give that back to the, uh, society as well. Um, so I have been mentoring, um, uh, a lot of engineers and a lot of B school grads, um, into getting into consulting, uh, just, uh, especially now B school, uh, grads, especially as, as, uh, the, the transition from engineering to B school as well as, uh, startups, um, and, uh, yeah, that's something that I'd, Encourage people to just reach out to to people whom they think that they can help. There are ample amounts of platforms nowadays as well, where you can, you know, platforms that you can leverage to to seek some mentorship. If let's say your uni or the companies you have worked in do not have a structured mentor mentoring program.

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

Yes. And what are you excited about now? Or is it kind of in the tech space and the startup space strategy? What excites you now?

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

Um, I mean, so far, uh, Chief of Staff work has been fascinating, so, uh, that does excite me, just the work in itself. Um, I, uh, I get to do things that I get, uh, that I like, um, and, uh, that's, that's motivating. Impact has been the core of everything that I have done so far. I love when something that I have built is actually used and creates value. There is no better feeling than this. No better satisfaction in terms of work. So that's amazing and that's driving me well so far. But let's say down the line, few years, uh, I'd like to build something big, uh, on my own. So maybe found something and, you know, create some, some, some product, um, uh, myself, um, and that, that as well, working directly with founders. I'm also, uh, uh, doing freelance consulting, uh, slash, uh, interim chief of staff advising a lot of, uh, um, small companies and startups here in Germany. Uh, so, uh, that is, you know, a bit of, uh, freelance work, side gigs that I'm doing, uh, and both the main tasks, side gigs, everything is kind of quite aligned to where I want to reach, um, um, in few years. So yes, uh, excited about what I'm doing now and excited about where it leads me. how all this contributes to what I want to build at the end.

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

That's a great place to be when you're excited about what you're doing now and then where that's going to lead you. So with that, if anyone has listened to you and says, Oh, I actually would love to, you know, have a brainstorm session or just bounce some ideas around with Vivek, where's the best place for people to find you or connect with you?

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

Um, LinkedIn, uh, do reach out there. I'm quite active, uh, on LinkedIn. So, um, yes, that would be, uh, would be the place to, to reach out.

emily-sander_1_01-09-2025_080153:

Excellent. We'll have your LinkedIn information in the show notes for people, but Vivek, so thank you so much for your time and for sharing your wonderful insights and theoretical and practical tips on building trust and moving from consulting to chief of staff. Thank you so much.

vivek-modi_1_01-09-2025_170153:

Emily, it was an absolute pleasure being here. Thanks for inviting me. It was lovely talking to you.