Leveraging Leadership

A No-Nonsense Guide to Rolling Out OKRs That Actually Work

• Emily Sander • Season 1 • Episode 207

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Sara Lobkovich explains how to use OKRs (Objectives and Key Results) without the common pitfalls, like having too many goals or confusing milestones with actual key results. She gives practical examples, such as how "launch Project X by end of Q2" is a milestone, not a key result, and pushes for OKRs to focus on measurable outcomes that often feel out of your control. The conversation includes tips for Chiefs of Staff on implementing OKRs successfully, handling change management, and using retrospectives to learn from what worked—and what didn’t.


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Who Am I?

If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want. 

 

Time Stamps:

00:13 Understanding OKRs: Objectives and Key Results
01:47 Common Challenges in Implementing OKRs
04:35 Defining Key Results and Milestones
08:09 The Importance of Clear Definitions and Terms
18:47 Implementing OKRs Successfully
22:24 Quantitative Assessment and OKR Creation
24:32 Timeframes and Cadence for OKRs
25:53 Levels of OKR Localization
28:58 Change Management and OKR Adjustments
32:41 Retrospectives and Continuous Learning
34:54 Cross-Functionality and OKRs
38:33 Addressing Resistance to OKRs
40:41 Sarah's Work and Expertise
42:54 Sarah's Book and Resources
43:15 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

My guest today is Sarah Kovich, and she is here to talk to us about no BS OKRs, which I'm super excited for. Um, Sarah, welcome to the show.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

you so much. It's awesome to be here.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

I think most of our listeners have heard of OKRs, but just in case someone is like, what is the KR thing they're talking about, can you just give a quick snapshot overview of what we're talking about in the universe of OKRs?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Absolutely. So OKR stands for Objectives and Key Results. It's a

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

a

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

goal setting practice. That was,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

was,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

it. I could go way back, but emerged out of, or evolved out of an earlier practice called MBO, which was management by objectives by Peter Drucker, who's one of my heroes, super ahead of his time.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

it. It's, we're ahead of this

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Um, objectives and key results are a way of collaboratively setting goals where we have an objective that gives us our direction and shared sense of purpose. And then

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

and

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

results, which. And some, that's where the controversy is, is in what's the definition of a key result?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

result?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Um,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

most resources say that key results are measurable outcome goals. So they're, instead of planning activity, we're setting goals around what we hope to achieve or aim to achieve

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

achieve

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

in terms of a measurable impact together.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

together,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

they've been used globally. I mean, I've.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

I've

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Touched

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

touched

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

and trained, um, OKR coaches more than 2000 coaches and 300 plus organizations worldwide. And that's just me.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

just me.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Um, so they're in really broad use all sorts of industries. Use'em the challenge. That often happens with implementation is that the earlier resources about OKRs get us really

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

us

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

excited. They especially get executives excited

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

excited

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

then the executive hands the book to their chief of staff or their program implementer and everything goes off the rails

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

the rails.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

because yeah, it's like there just isn't enough practically applied information, especially about using them at scale. That's where I come in, um, is with practices that help us actually make them work at, even at large scale.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

And what, what would you say the, I know it's a broad topic, but the biggest you see when moving from this is a great theory and it sounds nice to now we actually have to implement it. And like you mentioned, chiefs of staff are often responsible for like, okay, let me take that

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Mm-hmm.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

and try to turn it into a reality on a ground. On the ground. Um, what's the biggest mistake you see people make in that, in that process?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

like two things together of lack of

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

lack of

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

words and meanings, like lack of having defined terms means that we wind up with everything, having an OKR and having the too much, too many problem. So most.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

most,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

OKR implementations I see that are struggling. They just have too many, too much of everything, too many objectives, too many key results. Um, too many milestones that are called key results. Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Um,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

much overlap between their project management systems and their OKRs, you know? So it's just way too much of everything,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

have

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

where if we start with a coherent set of terms.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

term

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

are defined, that fit together like mine,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

like my,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

the approach that I take kind of fits together like puzzle pieces really well. Then we can

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

can

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

have what we actually adopt OKRs for, which is the focus and clarity and alignment. Like it lets us zero in and not have that too much, too many of everything because we can actually define what terms mean and then use those definitions.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

So, as with many things in life, setting proper expectations at the beginning helps things downstream. Funny,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Funny.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

how that works. Um, uh, and for the people listening who, I mean, I'm sure ears have perked up because people, I'm in charge of this or I'm involved in this. Okay. Sarah, tell me more. If you were to give someone a, an example of, know, here's. An example of a, of a actual key result, and here's something that often gets confused with the key results or gets try to slide that one in there and it's not supposed to be there. What would just be kind of a, a quick example you could give people?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

so I work with, um, high change organizations, high growth, innovation transformation. So what a key result is can vary depending on the type of organization and, uh, who you're working with. Um, so I'm not saying that any other definition is. Wrong.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

wrong.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

What I'm saying is, in the model that I work with, with the kind of clients I work with, we only call something a key result if it's an empirically measurable progress or outcome goal.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

goal.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

So

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

So

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

aren't key results. Milestones or milestones, we already have a term for that.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

that.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Um, and other kinds of activity goals are usually not key results. Every so often there's a necessity to have a

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

to have

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

smart goal, like Quantified Activity Goal saying

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

saying,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

do something a certain number of times. Sometimes that is actually what's important,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

important,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

but I can break it down to like three really simple examples.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

models.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

isn't a key result in the model I work with

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

work

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

is we're going to launch Project X

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

X five.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

of Q2.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Q2.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

That's a milestone. We've already got a term for that, that's really important.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

important.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

But our milestones are usually not stretch measures. Our milestones are usually commitments.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Okay,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

So then there's this middle ground, which is where most people go with key results, which is

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

is

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

going to launch seven features with Project X

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

X

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

has a number in it. It's not a milestone that's quantifying activity.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

activity.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Sometimes that is actually what's most important. Like sometimes what's most important is that we do something a certain number of times,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

times,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

so then we could consider it a key result. But we always pressure test and say

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

say

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

what's important that we get it done

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

it done by

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

by a date, that we get it done a certain number of times. Or that project X

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

X

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

achieves a

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

uh.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

90 days SAT score of five stars.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

stars.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

That's a key result.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

result.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

It's an

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

It's an

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

empirically measurable outcome where we're not talking about activity, we're actually talking about something that we hope to influence, but it's beyond our control.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

control.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

multiple variables, so we use

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

so we use

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

key results in stretch territories where.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

where.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

We can't actually forecast what's gonna happen because it's growth, transformation, innovation. It's the unknown.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

unknown.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

But we can say,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

say,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

it be incredible if

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

if

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

this happened?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

happened?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

then that can be a key result that we aim for together.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

together.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

that's the big difference. Uh, there are other differences, but in terms of key results, that's the biggest difference with how I work with key results, is that we.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

that

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Give those other things terms, but we make really conscious decisions about

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

about

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

it I important that something gets done,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

gets done

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

or

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

or

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

important that something gets achieved in terms of a measurable outcome?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

outcome?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

And then we use key results in door number two, and we use milestones or other kinds of planning goals. Door number one.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Wow. Okay. So many subtle but important

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Mm-hmm.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

in your outline. And, uh, you were very clear about that, so thank you for walking us through it as you were going through the first one. So I was like, no, I think that might be a cute, Nope, that's not a key result. And that kind of sounds like an empirical number. Nope, that's not it either. So, um, I like how you walked, walked us through and, and the part that made sense but was slightly uncomfortable was like, this one's outside of your control. And that's the actual key results like. But sphere of influence and determining what's in your control and outside of your control. So I guess in this, in this case, that distinction of what's in your control and outside of your control is important, but it's like the one that's outside of your control is the actual key results in this case. Yeah.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Yeah, it is, and it's, I mean. I'm a systems thinker, like everything for me has to be broken down to a coherent system That makes sense. I mean, I either build it bottom up or break it down,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

it

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

and

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

and

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

a really big light bulb moment for me is when I noticed the pattern that

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

that

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

very few empirically measurable outcome goals are within our control.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

our control,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

hard pressed to think of one that is

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

is.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

they're always multi-variable. If we limit ourselves to only setting goals about what's within our control, we're planning.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

planning,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

That's not

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

that's not

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

writing OKRs, it's not setting goals. We're making plans, and so if it's within our control, we wanna treat that as a mandatory or a must achieve, or a commit. That's where milestones are awesome

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

are

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

and some forms of smart goals.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

goals,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

But when we want to stretch and achieve and try something new and learn something, or go into uncertain territory, that's where this style of key results comes in really handy. And we have to recognize we're going into the unknown. It is, you know, at least

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

know,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

we hope to influence the key result, but we don't control the outcome

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

outcome

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

if we only set goals. That we control the outcome of, we're not thinking big enough about what could be possible.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

And I think, you know, when you talk about influence, that's the currency that a chief of staff works in. So you're speaking, speaking our language. And I think too, when you, you had mentioned the term stretch goal a couple of times, and when you were describing, know, five star reviews at the end of this 90 day launch, um, example, was almost inspiring. It was almost like, oh, I'm motivated at a different, like more than an intellectual level. It's like, no, like I want that, like I viscerally want that. So is is that. Part of the process of getting people clear on their key results is that like that spark,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Absolutely is. So the question I love for key result forming is if everything were to go right, what would be incredible to achieve? Like so then I love that you picked that up because. It's not just about having clear plans, although clear plans and clear expectations are amazing, like we need more of that. Um, but when we sit down to do our work, just knowing the deadline doesn't tell us that much about how to work.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

work,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

we might have a brief. That might tell us too much or give us too much information. And I think the power of well-formed objectives and key results is that when we sit down to work, they remind us what did we all agree was really important? What are we actually ultimately trying to achieve and work toward? So it gives us, this is kind of why they're a chief of staff's best friend, is it gives us flexibility about how.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

how

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

How can change as circumstances change, but it means that we're moving in the same direction or headed for the same destination. So we don't have the moving goalposts problem that a lot of us experience where like we have a kind of squishy goal and we think we've achieved it, but we haven't achieved it by an arbitrary amount of enoughness, you know, or some other kind of,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

kind

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

um, squishy subjectivity.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

subjectivity

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

us problems. Um, so yeah, they, they really do give us a shared understanding of what we're aiming for, but then that also informs how we work

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

work,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

achieve that outcome.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

outcome. I love the phrase arbitrary amount of enoughness. Um, that's a, that's a fun one. Okay, so we have the key results and then just to, like you hit on them a little bit, but just to kind of pin those down, milestones are important and maybe like a brief explanation of that. And then I do wanna get into activity goals'cause I think that has its place and importance to you, but milestones, what would you wanna get across to people about milestones?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

so again, this is a little different in my practice because of how I'm wired. Most OKR practitioners work with objectives and key results. The model I work with gives a definition to milestones because milestones are doing a thing by a date. In the model I work with, milestones are committed. They're not stretch goals because our milestones have all sorts of dependencies and other things are dependent on them.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

on them,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

So we

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

we

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

have a date certain that that's gonna be done.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

be

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

And so that further distinguishes milestones from key results that our key results are stretch.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

key edge,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Our milestones are committed or mandatory goals, um, which sometimes we don't make our mandatory goals and that's life. But when we're setting and we're thinking of them as mandatory or committed, because then we can manage all the dependencies and everyone has the information they need in order to do whatever downstream. Work is dependent on those milestones. And then I also define KPIs because. Everyone comes in with a question. What's the difference between an OKR and a KPI?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

high

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

We think of KPIs as indicators. It's right there in the name. So we might have

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

have

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

long list of KPIs that we keep an eye on. They don't all need milestones or key results. They're more like,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

more

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

um, you know, like if your blood pressure's healthy, you might keep an eye on your blood pressure, but you don't have a goal set.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

goal,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

it. Then blood pressure's a KPI. But if your blood pressure's outta control and you have a goal to improve it, that's a key result. And if you wanna improve it by a date, that's a milestone.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Hmm, gotcha it. So for KPIs, when I was chief of staff, we use KPIs in different contexts, but I'm wondering if this following analogy holds. Let's say you're a pilot and you're in the cockpit driving a plane and you're kind of on cruise control towards your destination. Everything's going fine, but the pilot's still looking at their dashboard to say like, okay, there's a wind, speed is the tilt, is the engine running? And if those KPIs look good, like keep going. If something starts blinking or flaring or sirening or whatever, then you pay closer attention to it. Is that a rough analogy to

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Absolutely. Yeah, that's a perfect. It's basically the metrics, our scorecards, our dashboards that we are monitoring.'cause we need to keep an eye on'em and make sure they stay in the healthy zone. Um, but

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

but

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

we don't have to create goals around them unless they need improving, and that's where our key results come in. Again, that's another way to reduce the too much, too many issue.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Yes. Okay. And then, okay, I wanna get, there's so much I wanna get to. You're saying so much good stuff. But just to hit on before I forget the activity

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Mm-hmm.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

would talk to my team a lot about. There's, there's like things like drop dead dates and deadlines and these kind of more concrete goals, but then there's like the, what I call process goals where it's like you have to run the process and sometimes, the habits and the process and the things you do over and over again are what Bill too, the end result. So I'm just wondering kind of your, your take on, um, process goals or activity goals.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Yeah, so I am less specific there because most organizations are already up and running in terms of their activity planning and activity management. Every so often I work with an organization that isn't, but most organizations I work with already have their guidelines around how their delivery systems work.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

and

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

And so then we're

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

then

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

merging OKRs into that existing delivery system.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Done.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

but for me personally, I'm right there with you. We have

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

We have

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

our, um, process or progress activities that we have to do something a certain number of times, you know, and we have our milestones. And so that same structure applies to activity goals and activity planning. Um, and it's nice and consistent too.'cause then just like with our key results, we can have process or progress, key results and outcome,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Outcome,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

So we might have leading indicators that are those process type key results

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

results

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

and we might have those big lagging outcomes. Um, so yeah, it's, it sounds like a lot of things and sometimes people

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

people

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

look at me and they're like, do we really have to learn all these words?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

these words,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

I'm like, it's really not that many.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

that many.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

It's very coherent. Like it, I have a very simple picture of this that keeps it organized and words matter.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

matter.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

they're how we establish our shared meaning. So it's not too many words to learn. Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Uh,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

especially'cause a lot of them are words we're using at work anyway, and everyone just has a different definition for'em. So

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Yes.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

it's just kind of cleaning up. What's already, what's already happening?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

So it sounds like the first step is baselining the definition of terms, and it might be going into a company where there's nothing at all. So it's like, okay, let me just tell you the terms, and it might be, I. There's an existing process that you have to redefine or kind of say, Hey, you used to use this word and now that means this. Um, can you talk a little bit about how to implement this program successfully? Let's say there is maybe a nascent version of like, we kind of did this in a spreadsheet and Matt has a napkin over there that he keeps track of stuff on. Like, can you help us like mature this process though, um, and move it to the next stage? How would you go about actually implementing, um, your KOKR process?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

So I start with not changing what's working. So anything that's working, we don't change. There's no reason to change anything that's working.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

working.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Um,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

I implement typically. Following a really similar process where

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

where

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

I work with the CEO, ideally, the CEO or a senior most leader first to develop company level OKRs or top level OKRs. It's usually the

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

the

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

senior executive and their chief of staff and one or two other strategic right hand partners. Um.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Um,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

We do that on purpose because if the CEO doesn't get with the program of the words and meanings, then we're all wasting our time here.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

time here.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

So, so, um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

um,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

so we usually start at the top of the org when possible. Sometimes that isn't the case, but I do a lot of education that doesn't start at the top, but when we're implementing or rebooting OKRs, I see the.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

I

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Biggest,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

biggest,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

gains when we get the senior most leader with the program.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

the

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

So start at the company level,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

level.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

we have all sorts of different ways to

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

to

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

support or roll out to other levels and parts of the organization. Um, but yeah, getting that senior most leader to learn the words and meanings enough

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

math

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

to be able to model that difference between what's a commit.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

commit,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

What's a commit and how do I hold myself responsible? Or how do I hold us responsible for commits? And what do we do when we don't achieve our commits? Versus

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

versus

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

are our stretches and I'm gonna stretch really big and you're gonna see me fail, and you're gonna see me learn from failure. Like all of that behavior is super important, and that's the part that not everyone pays quite enough attention to.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

and if you had a case where. There's, let's say, I don't know, dozens upon dozens of existing OKRs, milestones, KPIs, things that are called these things. Um, and, and you've talked about like the, a, a common problem is having too many of these things like just keep it simple people. How do you go about consolidating down to here's what you actually mean, or here are the most meaningful ones.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

I'm like doing a little happy dance'cause this is one of my favorite things to do. Um, when I come into a situation with existing OKRs, I do the world's fastest audit.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Audit.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

sorts of tricks for being able to do it quickly so

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

trade, so

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

I can come into an organization that has hundreds of OKRs and run my assessment on them

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

on

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

them.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

them

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

of these are milestones. That already exist in your project plans.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

plan.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

The other 8% are quantified activity goals is what's most important, that those things happen that number of times.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

of

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Or do we wanna talk about what we're really trying to achieve?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

achieve?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

it's really fun to be able to show folks the math

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

math.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

on that because then they, you know, it's like

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

know, it's

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

even if folks are a little skeptical when they see that.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

see

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Quantitative assessment. They're like, ah, I see the problem.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

the

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Ah, I see, you know, maybe we can try this. Maybe I will give this another try. You know, because they can actually

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Actually

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

the issues and almost like,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

like,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

uh, change talk themselves about where we need to go.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

go.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

But when I come in and I'm supporting OKR creation.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

free,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

I look at the big system of existing OKRs just to see if there's anything there that needs to survive. But typically I'm starting with their

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

with

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

vision, their

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

their.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

strategy, whatever strategy doc they have. If it's a year strategy or a three year or a 10 year, basically, what are their purpose documents? And so

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

And

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

I work with leaders starting there to say. What's your purpose?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

purpose?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Why are we here?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

are we there?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

What's most important to achieve? Why does it matter? And then how do we quantify success? Um, so it's pretty rare when I come in,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

in,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

you know, it's not that the past OKR work is wasted because people have learned a ton

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

on

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

whatever they've done in the past.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

past.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Um,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

is pretty rare to see a lot of key results. Kind of

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

kind of

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

come through that process. Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

um,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

just because there's no incentive to write a proper key result if you have the option of writing a milestone, like who is gonna sign up for a measurable outcome

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

outcome?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

can just say, I'm gonna do this thing by a date,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

date,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

no one in their right mind.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

right

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

And so the minute the OKR practice allows milestones in. We just tend to see everything become a milestone

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

milestone

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

set of key results.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

results.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

so when I come in, that's what I see the most. Um, so those milestones survive in the delivery planning, but, but they don't have to be key results.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

And what timeframe are we typically talking about in terms of like, what are we trying to achieve? Like, like at all, like why do we exist as a company or like in the next 18 months type of thing? Or what timeframe would you suggest working with?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Awesome question. So the cadence that I find the most valuable, and it varies, but, um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

but

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

but the default that I work with is we work at the company level on an annual basis, and then we work within the company on a, I love a trimester basis, so almost everyone does a quarterly basis, um, because they have to line up with quarters for other external reasons. But man, trimester Lee. Objectives and key results are incredible'cause then

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

because

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

we only have, you know, two reset cycles and then we're resetting for the year. So we don't have as much

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

as

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

administrative overhead being spent on creating or updating our OKRs,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

OKRs

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

and it gives us a little bit longer to achieve them.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

to

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Than if we're working quarterly. Um, so I do a lot of quarterly, you know, annual at the company level quarterly in the org. But I personally do annual trimester league and, um, I just think we get a little bit more bang for the buck when we do OKRs on a trimester basis.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

And the different levels you've mentioned company level, and then within the org. Are there like department, team, individual, how does, how do you, uh, recommend that goes

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Yeah, so conventional or traditional approaches talk about cascading,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

casing

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

and taking OKRs, kind of starting at the top of the organization and going sequentially down through the layers of the organization. Sometimes many, multiple layers. So a lot of clients who come to me have tried to implement OKRs at three or four or five levels, or they've tried to localize OKRs all the way down to individual responsibility. Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Um,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

found even in very large organizations, we have better results with creating awesome best practice company level OKRs, and then one layer of localization into the functions.'cause then we've got cross-functional company level OKRs

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

pr,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

and functional localized OKRs and in a lot of companies. That's all the downward localization that has to happen. From there,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

there.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

the rest of the organization's, teams, and people can look up and say, Hmm, do I need to create an OKR for this project? Or do I need a project plan? Do I, you know, would I benefit from setting a smart goal for this or

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

or

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

a key result? You know? And so it lets

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

consults

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

two really solid levels of key results,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

results

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

answers the questions.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

question

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

People need answered to be able to align upward,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

out work.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

and sometimes we do have key results that roll down below that.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

that,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

But I just from a systemic standpoint, having done a lot of implementations with three or four or five or even six levels of localization, what I started to see is once we got the company level and the

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

the

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

L two OKRs actually written well.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

well.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Then when we'd go to set the L three key results OKRs, we'd sit down to set the L three key results and be looking around and be like, well, we kind of know what we like, we, that tells us what we need.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

we

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

You know, we don't need to create more key results for ourselves. Um, and so

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Um, and

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

that is, you know, again, that's a little different

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

different

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

with other practitioners, but that's what I've found to be the most successful.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

when you were saying that, what came to mind is an exercise of trust with the leaders of those. Of those functional groups to, okay. You know, your L twos now organize and orchestrate your teams to, to do these, to achieve these. And there's, you know, a hundred, uh, different ways that you can, you can, you can put people in different places and have them focus on different things to achieve that, but

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Yep.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

let them figure out the how. They know the

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Okay. Well you mentioned, um. management and, and oftentimes chiefs of staff are, are parachuting into, alright, like, we've, we've gotta change this thing. Uh, maybe it's like a leadership change. Maybe it's a reorg, maybe it's an industry shift. But, um, in terms of, change management, I, and I guess maybe you said quarterly or trimester, which is another phrase I like trimester. If you need to change an OKR or um. within that? How, how do you go about doing that? What's the best practice there?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Yeah, so the best practice that I coach is that we. Think of our objectives and key results as experiments in how to do better.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

better,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

we write them very quickly. We don't over deliberate, we don't overthink, we don't try and make'em perfect. Um, which again, that's different from most KR approaches.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

approaches. Um,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

but we write'em quickly. We get'em to a place where we can start learning by working toward them.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

with them.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

And then

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

then

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

I coach is we don't change them. During the goal term.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

term.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

if circumstances change, we might

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

might

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

pause a key result. If it's sending us in the wrong direction

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

direction

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

or,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

or, um,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

you know, if something new comes up and we have to add a key result, we might add a key result. But if we

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

if we

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

tempted. To adjust a key result because we're behind pace. We don't do that because what we would wanna do, you know, we wanna have that retrospective at the

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

at

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

end of the goal term. So if it's just a matter of we get into it and we're like, oh my gosh, we're not gonna achieve this, or we have some kind of circumstance change, we let those ride because then we get the opportunity to retrospective them if we change our OKRs.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

OKRs

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

As we go,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

know

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

miss that continuous learning opportunity, and that's that continuous learning is what's really important.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

And just to check, when you say goal term, or is that the trimester or the full year?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

If we're working in the org, that's the quarter or trimester at the company level, we still, even if we've set our objectives and key results for the year, we typically have some quarterly targets.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

targets.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

we still check in on our company OKRs every quarter or trimester, whatever the cycle is. So the whole system of OKRs gets looked at

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

looked at

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

periodically. Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Um,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

it to be on a rhythm that's scheduled that involves retrospectives so that we can actually capture the learnings and then make decisions about how we're gonna go forward.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Yes. And I, I can think of many scenarios that you are, uh, solving for where it's like, let's just change this one and add this one. I'm like, let's, no, no, no, no, no. Like you gotta stick with it for a quarter. I was thinking like, if it's a year though, that might be different. Whereas it's like, Hey, you said move quickly and make them simple at the beginning so we can try something. We, we know this one's off kilter, we gotta now wait for a year.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Nope.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

like it's the quarter to trimester timeframe.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Absolutely. Yeah. We, uh. Even at the company level, we only know so much about where we're gonna be in a year, like we're

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

like we're

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

forecasting an uncertain future. So yeah, even at the company level,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

level annual

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

and key results might change if they need to, but we change'em after a retrospective, not based on vibes or feels.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Um, and then just a, a little bit about the retrospective. So at the quarterly or trimester mark, is it? Okay, now let's run through like, is it like a status report? Is it like a anecdotal, everyone, like kind of talk to what they think about this milestone and KR How do, how do you like to run those?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Yeah, different orgs do it differently. The key questions I think are important are,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

are,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

you know, where were we off track.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

track

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

And what do we learn from where we were off track? Because

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

because

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

our key results, you know, doing this as long as I do, having key results in the green is kinda like yawn, you know, like whatever, you know? Sure. That's cool. We achieved, but what did we learn?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

to

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

You know the key results that are in the red and the amber, you know, that are lower in achievement or at risk. That's where we learn stuff. I mean, that's where we are running our experiments and having stops and starts and we're learning what doesn't work. So,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

So

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

so the questions of importance in a retrospective are,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

are,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

what worked for us? What did we learn that we can celebrate? Where did we have issues or non-performance? What can we learn from that?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

that,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

did we have zero performance and what can we learn from that?'cause that actually happens an alarming frequency. Um, and then

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

then

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

do we need to change to go forward? So what do we need to update or shift to based on the information that we have now for our next goal cycle?

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Yeah. What did we learn and what do we need to shift? And I think I, I've used similar questions, and I think you mentioned this now, but just to highlight it, it's for the like what didn't go our way or like what didn't go the way we intended it to go, let's learn from that. But also like what went really fricking well and like what did we learn and how did we double down on that because that's amazing. Um, and celebrating those wins, I think that's. Important and then, you know, what do we wanna change going forward? It could be like this, we messed, we messed this up, gotta change this. Or we didn't expect this to perform so well, what do we change to like open that channel up further. So I think there's kind of both in all ways to look at that.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Yeah. Well, and the other cool thing that comes out of it is everybody wants. OKRs to be more cross-functional like that's one of the, everyone comes in and we need to get,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

we

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

we need to get better at working cross-functionally. I don't start there like we start working, let's get ourselves functional functionally first without the complexity of cross-functionality. But then when we do those retrospectives, one of the key learnings is almost always we had too many key results. So then it's a little easier to convince folks to focus on fewer.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

on.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

One of the other learnings is, gosh, look at these places where we could have been more cross-functionally aligned.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

So

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

So instead of sitting in the planning room trying to decide how to work better cross-functionally, we can sit in the retrospective room and say,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Mm-hmm.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Ooh, look at this opportunity to go forward more cross-functionally. And it's just more effective at getting people to do something challenging, which is improve their cross-functionality. Way easier for them to learn that than to be told that. So that's another element. I think in any retrospective, like even outside of OKRs, that's one of the other big opportunities.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

And I think that's a key point to hit on, especially for chiefs of staff. So chiefs of staff listening who might go, okay, I'm rolling this thing out for the first time, let me, let me go on functional basis here. And then at the first or second retrospective, it might become just apparent that the cross-functional pieces need to go in there. And that's where chief of staff sees across the

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Yes.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

connects dots and all that good stuff. But, uh, I like that you said that,'cause that does need to come in at some point.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Well, and you might even, so I have a background. In chief of staff, like roles, like I'm definitely that

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

that

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

type.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

type.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

And

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

And

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

thing for me is seeing at the beginning. Now I can see the ways they need to improve their cross-functionality, but if I tell'em they're gonna be resistant to it or they're not gonna do it,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

gonna do

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

and.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

and

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

OKRs for me with my wiring and that chief of staff brain have become a way for me to architect behavior that I couldn't coach or teach or force or advise because I can let them run the experiment that I know is gonna fail,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

fail.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

but they only lose a quarter. To have that learning and a quarter in the grand scheme of things is not that long.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

long.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

we can like let OKRs, it's really hard to let some OKRs happen, but sometimes, you know, if you know that executive A and executive B need to work better together,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

together.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

you might let them have OKRs that

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

that

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

fail

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

fail

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

where the learning is

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

is,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

them. Gosh, we need to work better together.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

better together.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Um. And then they come to that conclusion on their own, and it happens faster than if we were trying to persuade them.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Faster. Yeah. I mean, I wanna pull a Yoda and be like, there, there's no failing. There's just learning. Um, because yeah, it's not, I mean, it's not a failure. I don't, I just, I think that, uh, one, there's probably things that were solidified in the functional group in that first round that's like very positive and very good. And then on top of which you get like an evident like, oh. it looks like we need to, I need to talk to Bob over here, or I need to talk to, you know, Zoe Ann over there. And if they come to that on their own, like golden, like that's a golden conversation. So that's just winning all across the

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Yep.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Um, but uh, I like what you said about that. Uh, I have so many more questions. Let me maybe pick like one or two more here. The last one would be if people are like OKRs, I don't like that name. I have like a visceral, like negative reaction to that. Can we call it something else? Can we position it differently? What is, what is your advice

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Call it whatever you want. Like there are organizations I've worked with where the terms, objectives and key results were so abused we couldn't use those terms.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Yeah,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

have, um, I actually often do speaking engagements where people are like, we want you to talk about OKRs.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

ok.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Do everything you do, say everything you say, but you can't say the words. Objectives are key results. It doesn't matter what we call these things. I mean, what matters is that we have a coherent glossary for the words and meanings that we're using. Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Um,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

and there are days where I feel like my practices have gotten so far from objectives and key results. I almost feel like they need to be called something different. Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

um,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

but no, it really doesn't matter what terms we use. This is a bit of a brain bender, but

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

but

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

we all think we know

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

know

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

basic terms in the workplace mean.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

means.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

We all use the term goals, we use KPIs, we use metrics, like there are all these terms that we use and we assume we're all saying the same thing and we're not. So it really doesn't matter what the terms are. What matters is that the model is coherent and defined and that the terms are defined.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

I think that's another really important takeaway is for people listening have a common language. So whatever it is, like whatever words you want, like banana, like triangle, whatever, like have a common language so everyone knows exactly what we're talking about and that in and of itself, even if you have five. Three to five, but everyone understands that term and you can use it across the company and people get it. Huge win. So that might, I mean, that's just baseline stuff, but that might just be a huge level set win for you and your team right

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Mm-hmm.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Um, Sarah, so much more I could go into, you've shared so much information, but I'm sure it's just the tip of the iceberg of what you talk about. Can you, can you please share kind of what you do? You've mentioned the coaching and kind of the implementation that you run with companies, but um. Who do you help? Uh, what do you help them with and where can people find you?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Yeah, I work with purpose focused organizations, which doesn't mean just nonprofits. Like basically, if you're trying to do something hard and you need to improve your performance to do it. That's who I work with is organizations who don't want to just talk about change in progress. They're actually invested in achieving it. So, um, organizationally, that's the kind of organization I work with, which means lots of healthcare, education, um, aviation and other high risk industries and technology that's adjacent to all of that.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

of

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Um,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

but not really limited to that. So it's basically, you know, if you, if you wanna do the hard work of change. Then call me.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

call me. Um,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

and then I also, um, like chiefs of staff are my people. Um, and I am

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

I

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

personally neurodivergent and had a very challenging career, very externally successful, very internally. Uh, felt very yucky for a lot of my career. And so, um, I do programs and courses and other support, and my book is dedicated to us, um, to people who struggle with their careers because of identity or values or cognitive style. Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Um.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

lot of chiefs of staff are

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

are

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

super strategic and have no idea.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

idea.

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

you come into the chief of staff role through the

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

through the

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

administrative or operational door,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

door,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

have no idea what a brilliant strategist you are.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

you

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Um,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Um,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

finding and enabling that is my,

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

my,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

that's my passion. That's my real why is helping more folks. Discover their internal strategist and figure out how to leverage it instead of that voice being just miserable in there.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

What is your book called?

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

My book is You Are A Strategist, use no BS OKRs to get big things done, and then the No bs. Okay. R Workbook is a

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

is

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

a short, sweet. Workbook version. Um, and you can find more information about my work@sarahkovich.com or the books@yousstrategist.com.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

com. Beautiful. And we'll have all that information in the show notes. Please check out Sarah's book. But Sarah, thank you once again for being on. I really enjoy, I learned a lot from our conversation personally, and I'm sure our listeners did too. So thank you very

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Thank you. I am not gonna lie, this is like the most excited I've been on to be on a podcast. I was so excited to be here.

emily-sander_1_04-22-2025_133241:

Happy to have you. So great to have you on Leveraging Leadership. Thanks,

sara-lobkovich--she-her-_1_04-22-2025_133240:

Thank you.