Leveraging Leadership

Overcoming Imposter Syndrome as Chief of Staff: Lessons From the Deep End

• Emily Sander • Season 1 • Episode 204

Share episode

Emily shares a personal story about being made the interim leader of a digital marketing department as Chief of Staff, even though he knew nothing about digital marketing at the time. She talks about asking basic questions like "What does SEO stand for?" and dealing with colleagues who doubted her, including being called out during a team meeting. The episode highlights how not being a technical expert can actually be an advantage and gives tips for handling imposter syndrome by focusing on transferable skills and tracking your own progress.


Links Mentioned:

 

Free Resources:

 

Get in Touch With Emily:

 

Who Am I?

If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want. 

 

Time Stamps:

02:04 Emily's Story: Taking on a New Role
04:00 Facing Challenges and Learning on the Job
12:04 Overcoming Imposter Syndrome with Confidence
15:28 Navigating New Responsibilities
16:44 Building Confidence Through Experience
21:36 Embracing Vulnerability as a Leader
23:37 Redefining Imposter Syndrome

emily-sander_2_07-23-2025_160141:

if you are feeling imposter syndrome as chief of staff because you don't have the deep technical knowledge to run this area of the business. Then this episode is for you, and one of the first things I'll say is, you are not alone. I speak with chiefs of staff and this is a very common tale, especially early in someone's tenure, but it can also happen later on when, Hey, Emily, I was going finance as chief of staff. I had rhythm of business. I was doing principle management. I was in my stride, all these things, and bam, I got put in charge of this and oh. I know nothing about that. I know nothing. They want me to run that. I have people looking at me like, what the heck is she doing in charge of that? How dare he put that guy in charge of that? He doesn't know nothing about what we do. He can't manage us, type of thing. And then I get people coming to be going I imposter syndrome. Okay, so you're not alone. I have spoken about this in previous solo episodes, and I have had some guests speak about this topic as well. In brief, very short recap of what I've said in previous solo episodes. Not being the subject matter expert can be an advantage. Reason being chief of staff can ask fresh questions, can bring a fresh perspective, and sometimes the subject matter experts know too much for their own good and being able to translate or communicate out what the subject matter experts are saying to non-technical audiences and different stakeholders. Is critically important. That translation, that buffer can be the make or break thing for that team or that company. So it can be a huge advantage in that sense. Okay. That's a brief recap. You can look at previous episodes for more. In this episode, what I want to do is, um, go through a little story from when I was chief of staff, and the reason this is coming up is because when I'm speaking to people about imposter syndrome in their chief of staff roles, sometimes this story will come up and I'll bring this up and I'll share this. And it tends to help. And people go, oh, okay. Well, when you say it like that, then it's not so bad. And you can see their kind of shoulders just drop and relax and the stress just streams off them. I've done this over and over and over again now, and this is the general response. So I was like, Hey, let me share this an episode in case it is helpful for you. So here we go. So, when I was chief of staff, I was the first. Probably six to nine months. Were solely dedicated on the core business we had, and there was a lot of stuff going on. A lot of, a lot of stuff. You know what I'm talking about. You get into the chief of staff role, you have like a hundred different things you're doing at once. It was like big chunky stuff like leadership team and makeup of leadership team and roles and personalities and stuff like that. Overhauling or revamping the account management team. And that was a big piece of our existing business and retaining existing clients, all that stuff. Other internal processes, other reporting, all the full gamut of, of normal, of quote unquote normal chief of staff stuff. And I was moving along, moving along, moving along, and then. For a variety of reasons, which I will not go into here for a variety of reasons. A main subsidiary of ours, a main portion of our business. Not the core, but a main portion. Needed new leadership. Needed some new leadership, right quick. Okay, so Emily, you're chief of staff. You're gonna be the interim leader of this department. You says, you says what I'm gonna do, what? Oh, okay. So I'm now in charge of day-to-day operations. I'm now in charge of staffing. I'm now in charge of p and l. I have strategic oversight. I'm rolling up updates to the board, all this stuff. So like Emily, it's yours now. Okay. In that moment, many feelings happening, right in the feelings. Okay. So one feeling was, mm-hmm. No, I am not doing that. Mm-hmm. Last person who should be doing that? No full of hands, stamp of feet. Next emotion was As a leadership team member, like this makes perfect sense. This is, this is, this is not the core, but this is a pretty big chunk of our revenue. This is a pretty big chunk of our business model, our investment thesis. We gotta execute on this part of the business, like starting right now to get where we wanna be by the end of year and certainly in 12, 18, 24 months, we need this to be on lock. Okay. And part of me, the, another part of me was excited. I was like, this is a challenge, but you know what? It's gonna be fun and I'm gonna be able to get my hands in this part of the business and learn about it. I've known a few people kind of in conference calls and different things. I know a few folks there. They seem pretty good. Um, this is, this is an exciting challenge and I like, I can do this. I can do this. Let's go. So I had a full. Palette of feelings and emotions going on in that moment, but one of which was pure imposter syndrome. Like, no, like I should not be doing this and people are gonna look at me. I've got colleagues who aren't on board with the chief of staff role as it is, and now I'm doing this big chunk of thing. What the heck is she doing? Who the heck does she think she is? All this kind of stuff. I got people from within that department, from within that subsidiary going like. That makes zero sense. we liked how things were run before. We're gonna make this as difficult as possible for anyone trying to come in here. So all of those things were, were coming up in that moment. And so I, literally I got this news and this decision was made on one day and then the very next day I was diving in deep and having one-on-ones with directors of all the various teams within this, within this department. And I remember, uh, one of my very first meetings was with a guy named Dan. And Dan was great and probably is great. We got along swimmingly over the course of this whole thing. It turned out to be 18 months. That I was over, this subsidiary was not supposed to be that long at the beginning, but it turned into 18 months. So it was a, it was a longer haul than originally anticipated, and Dan and I got to know each other and worked very, very closely with each other. He was a great guy. He was very good at what he did and brought a lot to the table. But at this point in time, I knew Dan, like we had kind of said hello in the in the hallway and probably been in some meetings together, but we didn't really know each other. Past that. And, um, he was a teacher by trades. So he had been a teacher previously, which, was helpful in this process. And I remember we were, meeting in this conference room and we did introductions. Hi, I'm Emily. Like I'm, you know, over the manage, digital marketing department now. you know, digital marketing would love your help on this. Let's partner up all this, all this, all that kind of intro stuff. And then I sat down, I was like, I, can you give me an overview of digital marketing now quick. Quick preface for this. At this point I could have written all I knew about digital marketing on the back of a stamp with a pickax on the back of a stamp with a pickax, which is an old timey saying my great aunt used to say, and I've never used it in a sentence until just now. So basically that means I knew nothing. I knew I had nothing on that. And so I said, Dan, can you just start with an overview of digital marketing? And he said, sure. So he got up on the, to the whiteboard and kind of, you know, started to open up some markers and whatever, and he was like, um, before I start. Can you tell me what you know about digital marketing so I can tailor this lesson to the appropriate level? And I was like, that is a fantastic question. I was hoping you wouldn't ask. And I was like, pretend like I know nothing. Talk to me like I'm five. And he was like, okay, no problem. So, um, I'm gonna start talking and if I say something that you don't understand. Just say stop and I'll stop and re-explain it. And I was like, perfect. Great. Sounds good. So the first thing he said was, um, within digital marketing there's two big buckets. There's SEO and PPC. And I was like, stop. And he was like, what now? And he kind of turned and I was like, what does SEO stand for? And I remember his face and his arm was like up drawing at the board and he just froze and like kind of did a half turn of his face and he was trying to control his facial expressions, like. I just met this person. She's my new boss. She asked a silly question, how am I gonna handle this type of thing, and he just kind of regrouped and came and sat down at the table. We're not even gonna draw on the whiteboard yet, we're just gonna explain what SEO means, search engine optimization, and I asked some follow up questions and gave some technical answers, and I kind of did a recap. And I said, so basically in real life, when I go to Google and I'm typing in something, SEO is what brings up the organic search results. I learned what that meant. So there's the paid ads, the sponsored results, and then there's the organic search results. And SEO is what serves those things up. And he was like, yes. Basically, yes. And I was like, okay, got it. I'm with you so far. So they went back up to the board and started drawing some different branch diagrams and all that stuff. But that was a moment of like, oh man. Okay. Do we have to start with this? I guess we do. All right. Stop. I don't even know what that acronym stands for, which is a basic digital marketing acronym. Okay. So that was one of my very first meetings, right? And then one of, all hands meeting, but I had the entire department on just to do an intro level set, what's happening, why it's happening, da, da, da, da, expectations, all that good stuff. And, um. And I did that intro and then I handed it off to Dan. just kind of an overview of where the different departments were and kind of like a normal, regular, here's our KPIs that we're looking at and here's a status update on this thing. Just kind of a normal all hands type of rollout. And there was this one point where it was getting kind of tense for some reason. I don't remember exactly why, but one of the reasons. Why new leadership was needed is a culture shift of instead of being super, um, cutthroat and sharp and da da, it was gonna be like, Hey, like let, let's, let's be collaborative. Let's be team players. Let's have a little fun with what we're doing. You know, we're, we're not doing heart surgery. we're not charging a beachhead for freedom. Let's have a little levity and little lightness to what we're doing. And so I cracked a joke. Like I, it was, it was not like a hilarious joke. It was like a courtesy laugh. Haha, let's break the tension joke. And this one girl, uh, this one person like went off mute distinctly and was, was like, um. Is that all you can contribute to this meeting? And she said it just like that. And I was like, Hmm, okay. Many feelings and many ways I could respond to this young lady type of thing. But it was like, basically, yes, that's, that's what we're going with right now. Just told your horses, we'll get there. Don't worry. Uh, but that was like literally like being called out in front of the entire team. And I, and I didn't have anything else to contribute on a technical level at that point in time. And so I just had to sit there and go, okay, don't. Don't make this worse. Don't, don't take that bait, just kind of glaze over it and move on. But that was, I remember at the moment I was like, oh, this does not feel nice. Oh, that does not feel nice. Did we need to do that? Did we need to say that? Like it that in front of the entire team? Is that what you're about? Okay. Noted. And moving on. All right, so that was certainly part of the initial process where there were moments of imposter syndrome for Surez. For sure. let me go through some things that helped during this, this initial process and throughout the entire process. One of the things that helped was knowing that I brought a whole bunch of other things to the table. There's the technical knowledge. Yes, that's, that's true. And then there's, recruiting and hiring. Let's build out this team. Talent management and assessment. Let's see who we have. On the roster, do we have people on the right seats on the bus? Do we have underperformers that have not been being called to account and have accountability built into the process? Do we have top performers who are hidden over here? No one really knows about it. Untapped potential. Okay, let's bring you guys up here. Here we go. Internal processes, operational efficiencies, client touchpoints, client management. Hey, when we send an email to a client, we need to make sure we have our information straight. We gotta make sure we're adding value when we ha when we call a a client outta the blue, we gotta make sure we are quick to the point they're busy. We know exactly what we're asking of them when we have a set monthly call, and certainly in-person quarterly business reviews, we have to have that agenda on lock. If there's multiple team members on that call or in that meeting, we have to be coordinated with our efforts there. So all of those things I brought to bear, um, reporting and KPIs. And are those vanity metrics or meaningful metrics? Are they measuring what we want? Rollups to the leadership team, rollups to the board, different stakeholder management, things like this. All of that I had all of that I brought to the table, all of which were part of the reason we needed new leadership on this team. Um, technical knowledge was one piece of the pie. And there were many pieces of the pie. Was it an important piece? Absolutely. Absolutely. And did I have to learn that? Yes. I knew I had to learn that. I had a ways to go in that area, but it wasn't the whole thing. It wasn't the whole thing. That's my point here. So I knew that and I was very confident in those other areas. And even though People could and would call me out on my technical knowledge deficiencies at that point in time. Most people could pretty quickly pick up on the fact, well, she doesn't know that, but she knows all of this stuff. And oh my gosh, like that makes so much sense. Let's do it like that. And oh, we have this internal reporting for our internal team members. And you know what, that's really helpful if I know that going into a client call, that helps me. Yeah. Yeah, it does. So all these things would come pretty quickly, uh, with those other, other pieces of the pie. Another thing that really helped me here is. Knowing that within the technical knowledge piece, I wasn't going for world's leading digital marketing expert. I didn't need to be the thought leader in our industry for digital marketing. I needed to know enough to manage the process. I had to know enough to manage to it. Um, I, I, I did sit with folks and watch them do search ad campaigns and watch them do, uh, SEO blogs and keyword research and, and social media campaigns and all these things. And I did do hands on keyboard time, where for as painful as it was for a few of our team members, I made them sit with me and walk me through step by step on how to do, you know, a pa a paid ad campaign or like, let me do the keyword research for this one, or like, let me do some social media posts. It's like, let me do the graphics for that. And they're like, that is. Terrible, but technically it's fine. So, okay. Yes, Emily, keep going. Um, but I made, I, I made people do that for a few rounds just so I could do basic, basic stuff and have said that I had done it. Um, what else? I knew that. I needed to know enough to speak with customers about it, even at a high level. Um, I could defer to expertise experts where I needed it, but at a high level, internal processing, internal reporting. If I looked at the dashboard, I should be able to say, Hmm, that part looks funny. That part doesn't. Right. I have a question about that, and I would know who to go to on the team for that question. So enough to manage it. I'm not trying to be the world leading expert in all these things. That makes a huge difference. By the way, if you're like, Hey, I need to get it to this, not to this, but just to this. That can make a difference in how you approach things. And by the way, another thing that helped here is I knew that I was going to hand this off to someone else. I wasn't the long-term leader for this part of the business. I knew that I had to build it in such a way that it could ideally be easily handed off to someone else. So that, that kind of shaped how I approached it as well. And the third thing here, which is probably the most important, it was the most important for me in terms of combating feelings of imposter syndrome, um, was I knew where I was in the process. I knew where I was in the process. I had done this before. I had been in positions where I don't know nothing about nothing. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know nothing about nothing. And then I learned it. Then I got good at it. And so I knew where I was in, in that cycle, in that, uh, process. And it was, it doesn't take the sting out of it.'cause you're kind of in like the sucky part of the process where people call you out for not knowing stuff and you have to ask silly questions and you have to raise your hand and, um, say stop. And like, please help me push this button and what button do I click when you're doing kind of training sessions with people. But I knew where I was in the process. And I had confidence even at the beginning. I had confidence that I could learn it.'cause I had done it before and I'm a smart person and I'm a capable person. I'm a resourceful person. I can ask good questions. I don't mind looking silly, like I look silly a lot. So I'm like, that happens. It doesn't feel great, but I don't mind it because the larger goal is more important to me. So. I had all of those things going for me, even at the beginning. I will say even at the beginning, that comes over time. That comes over repetition. That comes upon reflection. I would say going, actually, not that you say that, Emily. Hold on, hold on. I have done stuff like that before. I actually did that before last year, or maybe outside of work. You know what? I was put in a position where I didn't know anything and I had to learn it. Now I take it for granted that I know that. So kind of knowing where you are in that process and trusting yourself and trusting yourself that you're capable of, of doing this. So that was super helpful at the very beginning and throughout the pro and throughout the process. I would also say I would, when I was feeling bad about myself, I would look back and literally be like, Emily, do you know more than you knew last week? The answer would always be yes, and it was because I was making a conscious effort to learn these things, but the answer would always be yes. Was it leaps and bounds every time? No. No way. I would get busy. I would get pulled off with other chief of staff duties stuff. Other stuff would be fire drill and I'd have to attend that. But. Over time and on a, at a pretty steady clip, it was, no, I knew, I know a little bit more than I did last week. Um, I remember I would, I would jump on these client calls just to listen and the first rounds of those client calls, I was like, oh, brother, I'm picking up like every 12th word here. You're saying words, you're making noises with your mouth. I know something's happening, but I am like barely hanging on here. And then there came a point when. I pretty, I pretty much know what's happening here. Okay. Yep. We're saying that to the client. We're saying that to the client. Okay. They're saying that back. I don't understand all of what they're saying, but I understand the gist of what they're saying. And then our team is providing that information and going with that angle. Okay. Got it. Got it, got it. Um, and then it got to a point where I could listen into a call and it might be an escalation call where I was brought in and, uh, the, my team did most of the talking, but there might be moments where, hey. Our team is saying the accurate and technically correct information. I can pick up on all of what they're saying now, and I can also pick up on the nuance of what the client is saying. Mm. Hold on. We're not answering their question. They want this piece of information. So while I didn't have the technical answer, I knew what type of information they wanted and I said, Hey, so and so on the team, um, can you run, run us through this part of the KPIs, this part of the metrics, this part of the dashboard for Mr. Customer over here. And Mr. Customer was like, yes, that's what I'm asking for. So being able to help translate that and know. Who to ask on the internal team and know what part of the kind of QML. Like they want this, they want this metric, they want this part of the dashboard. Talk to'em about this. And I was able to kind of guide the conversation at that level. Again, not the deep technical expert in the KPIs necessarily, but I wasn't able to connect the dots at that level. Okay. So that was cool to see. I was able to track progress for myself over time, which was important because there were times when I'm like, I don't know anything. I'm so stupid. People are like, what the heck is she doing here? I don't belong here. All that kind of stuff would come flooding in in certain moments, and I have to be like, stop, hold on. I know where I am in the process. I've done this before. Things are overall going better in this department, and I know more than I did last week. I know a whole bunch more than I did last month, and I will know a whole bunch more than I do now in a month and a week from now. Okay, so that was helpful for me. One other thing I'd say here is I think it goes a long way with people when you don't try to be something you're not, when you don't try to be the expert when you're not. I think that would've, oh, that would've been so off putting for a lot of people, I, I would say that most people, not all people, but most people. Recognized and respected. The fact I didn't come in there and say, I'm the world's leading digital market expert. I'm in charge here. This is, there's a new sheriff in town type of thing. Um, I was very confident and direct and had a sense of urgency around. What we needed to do differently with the department overall. And I was also very clear and transparent and vulnerable with the fact that like, I don't know this stuff. I'm gonna need your help. I'm asking for your help. And I think for a lot of the key players within that team, folks that I wanted to develop relationships with and kind of get. With the program and get on board with what was happening. They respected that. They saw that and they said, okay, you know, she's not, she's not being fake here. She's not trying to pretend like she's not something she's not. And I think that went a long way with people. So I would say that too, as you're going through imposter syndrome, there is a time and place for being the leader and being the boss. And there's a time and place for, saying, I don't know this. Can you help me? And that can soften and change the dynamic with certain conversations as well. And uh, I think if you lead with that, a lot of people will, a lot of people will respect both aspects or respect. Hey, like, she's here to run this. She's got a job to do. We got a job to do. We're a team now let's be a team and go do this thing. And also like, man, like she ha she doesn't know this part. She has a lot to learn over here and I can help her with that. And we have a lot to learn with this, this other stuff and she can help us with that. Let's do this together type of thing. So there was that kind of dynamic and, and different angles going on in that respect as well. Couple other things I'll say just generally about imposter syndrome is a lot of people take imposter syndrome as a mark of failure. Or weakness or some sort of deficit, and I would flip the script on that pretty hard actually. I would come back and say, actually, imposter syndrome feeling that way is a mark of a successful person. If you're feeling imposter syndrome over and over and over and over again, that can be the mark of a successful person. Think about it. Successful people, top performers, high achievers, do they stand still? Do they stay stagnant? Are they complacent? Heck no. No way. They are the ones pushing the envelope. They're the ones raising their hand. They're the ones doing so good in their current job. They get tapped on the shoulder for doing other things. They're like, oh, if we have this new department we're running, you gotta have this guy over here. Like he's the top performer. He's your go-to guy, bring him over here. And inherent in all of that is doing new and different things. When you do something new for the first time, there's a little bit of this like hint of imposter syndrome or a sliver of it, not the whole thing, not the full blown, um, unnecessary kind of self berating or, or saying, I have, I have no merit of being here. You do, you're a top performer. You're a high achiever. You step out of your comfort zone. You raise your hand, you push the envelope. That's why you're there. And I think that if you keep doing that, if you keep stepping outside of your comfort zone and then learning something, and then getting good at something, and now you can do it in your sleep, and then you step outside of your comfort zone again, and then you learn something, and then you get good at something and then you do it again. If you string that together over the course of a career, you are gonna have a successful career. And if you string that together over the course of a lifetime and like personal development, personal growth, you do that over and over and over again. That's called progress, my friend, that's called, that's not imposter syndrome, that's called progress. Growing as a person, being the best you can be fulfilling your potential. So that's where I flip the script. Hard on imposter syndrome is a sign of, I, I'm not doing very well. That must mean I'm, I'm weak and I'm stupid. Mm. No, probably the opposite. Probably the opposite. Okay. The second general thing I'd say about imposter syndrome is, looks can be deceiving. Appearances can be deceiving. The way someone shows up or presents themselves isn't necessarily how they're feeling on the inside. So I get a lot of, Emily will, you know, so and so on. My team, when she gets up there, she looks so confident or, um, this other person on my team, you know, he, he like doesn't stumble when he speaks. He knows exactly what to say. I could never do that. He makes it look so easy. A few things there. Number one, sometimes that's a function of them doing it for longer than you have, where it's like, oh, remember they did whatever they're doing for the first time. At some point they had to do it for the first time at some point where it was new and scary to them and they had to step outside of their comfort zone and then learn it, and then get good and then do it again, and they do it again, and now they're good at it. Now they appear confident because like I've, I've, I've done this, I've done this before. Um, you probably appear confident tying your shoe because you've done it before and it's like you don't think about it. I've done that before. To someone brand new, tying your shoe is tough. You gotta do this place and then this lace and then loop it over. Is it this loop? And then do I tie it? It's new and it's different and you have to pay attention. Um, other examples merging on the highway. Holy cow. The first time I merged on a highway. I was like, death, gripping the wheel. And I was like, I am doing my three point turn and like blind spot check and like this stuff. And I was paying full attention to that. I still pay full attention, but it's a different experience. It's like I'm gonna merge on the highway. I've done it thousands of times before. It's no big deal. I probably look confident doing it, especially in comparison to the first time I did it. So there's, there's that part of the appearances and she looks so confident and it's because she is confident and it's because she has. 15 years of experience doing this thing that I'm watching her do versus myself. Okay. The other tricky thing here is sometimes people appear confident and they are a raging, insecure mess on the inside. People can appear lots of different ways on the aisle so people can front, people can present themselves, people can do a whole bunch of things to look confident. Doesn't mean they are, doesn't mean they are. In fact, some people peacock, they like flash their feathers and kind of strut around and it's a mark of insecurity. It was like, oh, okay, you. Have a big car and you have flashy this and you have flashy that and I see what's happening here. Not all the time, some people have big cars, but they have to haul stuff. Some people dress fancy'cause they want to, but you get my point. Looks can be deceiving. Appearances can not quite be what's happening here. oh, and one more interesting part of this is the self-reflection piece. So people, a lot of people call Emily, uh, people just can tell. I, I, people just can tell I'm not confident. I, I, people can tell I have imposter syndrome when I sit in that meeting. Um, probably not. And even if they do, it's very likely not as bad as you think. So even if it's like, yeah, we can kind of tell like, you know, whatever, it's probably not as bad as you think. And most likely they, they don't notice. Um, honest to God, this is a thing. It's called the spotlight effect and you think you have a spotlight on yourself and people are like picking apart. Every little thing you do or say, or shudder or hand motion or tremor or whatever, you're like, oh my gosh, everyone can see that. No one, no one cares. No one is paying attention, honestly. So that's a thing too, like appearances and looks and how you show up. Your sense of that, your experience of that can be very different from the external experience of that for other people. So just know that as well. All right, so that was my chief of staff imposter syndrome story with, um, a few other notes and anecdotes and hopefully words of encouragement for you. But, uh, this is a real thing that happens. I know it is. I, I personally, you just heard about it. I personally know about it and I hear about it all the time. So it's a real thing that happens and I would just encourage folks to, when this happens, know what it is and know what it is not. So know what it is, which is, hey, I'm making progress. I'm growing as a professional and as a, as a person. I'm making progress as I learn to move through these phases. And this part of the process, I'm making progress, It might be two steps forwards, one step back. But if you're always making progress and you never give up, and you keep busting through your comfort zone and making a new comfort zone, uh. Holy cow. That's a lot of progress, and and you keep going and you bust through that, and you move through that and step through that, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Over time you keep doing that and then, whoops, I'm awesome. Sorry. Couldn't help it. I just, that's what I do. So I would know where you are in the process, know what this is and know what it is not, So hopefully that has been helpful and uh, I will catch you next week on leveraging leadership.