Leveraging Leadership

Chief of Staff and Communications Officer Collaboration: Real Stories of Effective Partnership

• Emily Sander • Season 1 • Episode 223

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Tracy Van Grack and Michael Patino talk about working with a Chief of Staff, sharing real stories from startup and established companies, including how early-stage teams can build a culture of communications even with limited resources. They cover the difference between hiring internal or external communications experts, using examples like tech startups handling crisis PR and the importance of authentic messaging. The episode also touches on practical steps for establishing company narratives, handling milestones like funding rounds, and common pitfalls in brand building.


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Who Am I?

If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want. 

 

Time Stamps:

02:52 Working with a Chief of Staff
05:31 Communications Strategy for Startups
07:29 Building a Communications Culture
11:32 Internal vs. External Communications Resources
16:59 Traits of a Good Communications Officer
20:48 Onboarding Communications Resources
23:12 Crisis Communications and Lessons Learned
25:42 Challenges in Scaling Technology
27:55 Budget and Resource Allocation
30:18 Building Effective Communication Strategies
35:42 The Role of Chief Communications Officers
39:51 Brand Building and Storytelling
47:09 The Importance of Community in Brand Building

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Welcome back to Leveraging Leadership. Our guests today are Michael Patino and Tracy Van Rack, and they are here to talk to us about number one, working alongside a chief of staff and also about what a chief communications officer is and why and when you might need one. But Michael Tracy, welcome to the show.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Thank you.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

great to be here.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Beautiful. So just for our listeners who might not know you, can you just do brief intros about what you guys work on and the exciting projects that you get to do? Maybe we can start with Tracy and then head over to Michael.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Yeah, happy to. Thanks again for having me. Thanks Mike, for including me in this interesting conversation. Um, I am coming up actually next. Month on 10 years at Revolution, which is an investment firm based in Washington DC. Founded by a OL Co-founder Steve Case. We are best known for our investment philosophy of seeking investments and advocating for entrepreneurs based outside of Silicon Valley. We currently have more than 200 portfolio companies. Based in more than 100 cities across the country, some of the companies that we're best known for. And I imagine a lot of your listeners will have heard of everything from Kava Sweet Greens, Scopely, clear DraftKings, um, but. Those are just some of the bigger, more late stage companies that we work with. We also have dozens of early stage companies, and because we're industry agnostic, we have worked with so many companies and founders based across the country, every stage of growth and really every industry.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Beautiful. So 200 Port cos So you are bored is what I'm hearing. You have nothing to do.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

right. Lots of variety, which is a good thing. So I've been here 10.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Beautiful over to you.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

I only have two companies, so I can't compare at all. Um, I lead, uh, a managing director and CEO of Patino Associates. We are an executive search firm that focuses on corporate communications and public affairs assignments. And this is my 25th year of doing executive search in this space.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Wow. Okay. I feel like.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

more than 10 years. That's why I made the face when she said 10 years at Revolution. I.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Time wise, man, like time really does. Um, but great. So thank you both for making me feel like a slacker compared to what you all do. Uh, appreciate that. But Tracy, you know, 200 Port Cos you work alongside a chief of staff. So just because we have a number of chiefs of staff listening and principals and fellow colleagues of chiefs of staff, can you just give us a little flavor of how that is set up and what your interactions are like with the chief of staff?

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm, I'm gonna say something before I even get to that, which is I've worked with a number of chiefs of staff over the course of my career, and I have to say they are without a doubt the smartest people I have ever worked with. I take. I think it takes a real unique skillset, such a high level of operational rigor and really, um, almost a sixth sense for external and internal storytelling. And I was very excited when you brought up this topic because I have worked with the same chief of staff here for the 10 years that I have been here.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Oh wow.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

I think our relationship is really foundational. I mean, she's a fantastic professional. She's had a number of really interesting experiences, both in the public and private sector, and I think our relationship is the reason that so much of our communications is successful. In particular, our executive communications platform, because we have a high profile founder, both in the DC area and within the broader tech community. And I couldn't do my job well in particularly, in particular in that space if I didn't have a bigger, broader understanding of what was impacting him, how it was connected to the rest of the organization, our organizational goals. Um, so, you know, we, we meet regularly, we communicate so often. Um, it's just such a successful partnership and I really respect, um, everything that she has brought to the table.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Beautiful. And are you interacting with her daily, weekly? What types of interactions are you having or what types of conversations are you having? Uh, with her?

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

I wanna say hourly, but definitely, definitely daily. I mean, we're a smaller team here at Revolution, right? So it might vary depending on the size and complexity of the organization, but definitely daily. Um, and. You know, that's kind of, you know, I think the reason it's worked so well is because we have, of course, regular communications where we have meetings that we're at, you know, throughout the week. But I think because our level of comfort, um, is so, is so successful, you know, we're texting each other all day to double check things. Um, and she's just such a great source of information.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Great, and so can you tell folks a little bit as I understand it, and please, please jump in here. You are working with all these companies at various stages and you're helping executives, founders, leaders understand where. Communications and ahead of communications might come into play, which is very different depending on the company stage and industry, and I'm sure like company and founder specific, whatever. But can you dive into that and tell us a little bit about that?

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Yeah, no, definitely. And you're absolutely right. I mean, communications is an art, it's not a science. And even within the same industry, if I was talking to two companies. At the same stages of growth, I might have completely different recommendations. So, um, it's hard to make blanket statements, but given the number of portfolio companies that you have, you know, you have to imagine we try and do a lot of things where we create resources that are broadly applicable and helpful to as many founders as possible. Um, and I guess the first thing I would say, um, is when we're working with companies, it's. You know, are, are we in that proactive stage of communications where we're talking about playing offense, where we're talking about brand building, reputation building, narrative building, or you know, very often companies come to us when they're in crisis mode and you know, it's unfortunate that they come to us when they're in that space because my message to them always moving forward is that actually. There aren't reactive. You don't wanna be reactive, you wanna be ready, right? And if the first time you're having a meeting about a crisis is during that crisis, you've fallen far behind. And so my, my message to the communications people that I work with is, you really can't think about those things in two buckets. They really have to go in tandem. And so how are you setting the stage even if you are, you know, a seed stage or a series a company so that you are prepared for both phases of communications.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

And what are some of the things that someone can do at an early stage company where it's like, Hey, Tracy, we're like, we have no budget. We have a dream. You're talking about communications. What do I do? Um.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Yeah, it, it's really hard, right? And a lot of these companies, they're young, they're scrappy, they're resource constrained. But even if you can't build the type of robust comms function that we often think about or talk about with later stage companies, you can build a comms culture. And there's a lot that these companies are doing that actually are communi that would qualify as communications. They just don't recognize that they're doing that. So the first thing I say is you have to really. Create that, that capability internally. So even if you don't have a head of comms, decentralized communications does not work. There needs to be a point person that is a point person. Maybe you're lucky enough to have a few people that can be your comms team, but it needs to be centralized so that someone is owning that. And eventually, if you are lucky enough to hire outside resources, that is your internal point person. then what I think is really valuable and comms firms can help, um. Companies do this. But I also think a lot of them, truthfully can do this on their own. They're just not taking the time to get some of the thinking on paper is what is your messaging hierarchy? So that can be, there are tons of ways to do this right? But the way I tend to think about it is first and foremost, what is your value proposition? What are you delivering and for whom are you delivering it for? And the second is, what is unique about you? So what? What are you doing that others cannot build? is your team? Right? And this is where you get into what I think a lot of companies already have that are super compelling. What's their origin story? How did you find that pain point? then it's what's, what's the mission of your company? And this is the one to two sentences that actually should really never change. And unless your company engages in a, in a really. Massive pivot. Um, and then finally, and this is the most challenging piece of it, and we could have an entire call about, um, on its own, is distribution. How are you getting that story out there? And there's a huge debate in the communications community I. With over something that they've dubbed going direct, right? So now you're starting to see a ton of executives, founders in particular that are using social media, emails, listservs, whatever you know, is works for them, um, to take charge of building that narrative, not relying on the mainstream media or news sources. communicate the value of that brand. And we've seen a ton of success with that in our portfolio founders that LinkedIn in particular has been really effective. Um, and I would say, you know, they're building their narrative, but they're also building their presence. I

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Hmm.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Um, Mike, if you saw Axios just came out with a study they did with Morning Consult, where I think it was eight out of 10 adults, you know, are associating positively or negatively a company or a brand based on that CEO's profile and brand. And a lot of that has to do with founders and CEOs going direct.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Yeah, so I wanna get to where the handoff comes in with Mike and some medium and larger stage companies. But just for, for the chiefs of staff listening, oftentimes they're. Employee number one or employee number five at this startup. And they are doing everything from head of operations and sales and marketing and product and compliance and head of janitorial services and throw on communications. So I think what you said about building a culture of communications. Is really good and setting that foundation. And then you had also mentioned when you can bring on a full-time resource or even like an official part-time resource. So maybe just touch on if, if you're talking to a chief of staff who's like, I, I have everything I have to do, everything. Um, how they build that solid culture of communication. And then when that inflection point comes when we can hire someone part-time or we can hire someone full-time, what that looks like.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Yeah, so, you know, it's interesting. I think the first time I generally have this conversation with a founder, um, or a chief of staff, whoever is kind of leading the charge with how to maximize or take communications to the next level tends to be around a milestone. So.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Hmm.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

They have a funding announcement, they have a product launch, they have a big hire and typically you will hire an outside resource before you have an internal hire. And I'm gonna leave it to Mike to talk about the pros and cons of that. But that's generally the way in the in startup world, you people will engage, um, with a communications function and there are all different routes you can go when you hire external support. I think. People don't realize, they very often think hiring outside, um, consultancies involves, you know, a five figure 12 month retainer, and that's not the case. The communications

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Hmm.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

so varied in particular, I. And, you know, for tech startups, there are firms that specialize in helping companies of all different stages of growth. I even work with, um, consultants that have kind of packaged various milestones. So they will say like, okay, you have a funding announcement. Here are the five things you need. Here's the fee, here's the length of time in which we are going to work with you. So that, that's the first point. The second, and I, I, I know I mentioned this earlier, is making sure you have the internal resources to manage the external resources. So a lot of times companies think, okay, I'm gonna hire a consultant. You handle it, but that consultant is not in your company every day. And we'll get to that when we talk about the benefits of internal hires, right? They, they do not know what's going on. They don't have a sense of the internal politics. They don't know what was discussed or canceled, you know, at a meeting three hours ago. So unless you have the capability to manage them effectively, think you're wasting a lot of time and money'cause they're not gonna produce the results that you need them to. Um, and there are various reasons where you might escalate this or feel ready to, you know, bring it up, bring on, um, external resources. Again, whether it's one of these announcements or whether you have a high profile founder, whether you're in a highly competitive industry, sometimes there are reasons where companies will kind of, I, I think, accelerate getting some resources where you might think like, oh, they're a pretty small company. Like, do they really need external support for communications? And, and they do.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Mike, what are some of the pros and cons of internal versus external hires?

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Um, before I jump into that, I think there's one thing that, uh. That Tracy brought up I think is really important, which is the culture. You know, the, the idea that communications is this thing that you bolt on. some point in time, it is kind of a mistake that some founders make. Uh, I kind of liken your, your thought process around communication should be your same way as you think about finance, right? Yes. There are certain aspects of finance that you need at different stages along the

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Yeah.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

You might not need a tax department from the beginning. You're gonna need that at some point in time, but you're thinking about the financial aspects of your business from the beginning, and you should be thinking about the communications aspects of your business. from the beginning as well, right? You might not need to go out and launch, uh, you know, products or worry about brand building from day one, but you should be thinking about that as part of your process from the very beginning of that, um, uh, of, of the inception of the company, right? So that as you start to think about to, to Tracy's point, inflection points where you say, gosh. We now need help in executing, uh, a product launch. We need help in strategizing about how to build the brand. That's when you begin to start to understand what kinds of resources you might need, what kinds you might wanna bring in and why. Right. Just in the same way that you think about, gosh, I can probably get away with a bookkeeper. From a finance function, oh, we're gonna do a capital raise. Now I need at least a, a fractional CFO, if not a full-time CFO to help me go and do that process. Right? so when we start talking about, okay, what kinds of resources do we utilize and why? I agree with what Tracy said earlier. Um, it depends upon. Where they are in their, in their mindset and what their expectations are and a little bit what their budget is as well. Um, Tracy made a great point. There are a wide range of resources available. There are some phenomenal people who work independently, who work on kind of a project basis around certain things. Um, there are firms that work on project basis versus retainer. You can go bring it in house. I mean it, the biggest things, and Tracy made this point, um. Having a consultant needs to be managed, and quite honestly, in a lot of the earlier stage companies that we've worked with in the past, it falls on the chief of staff because it really should be something that the CEO is at least aware of and thinking about, and the chief of staff. In the ones that work really well, that we've worked really well with, um, understand the messaging, understand the brand, understand where the company is trying to be positioned relative to the market, and can at least communicate that to the external resources so that the resources can deliver on that.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Yeah. What makes a good. Communications officer or fractional resource or part-time person, what makes it, what traits do you look for?

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

So I think there's probably three important things. One is you need to have someone who, who understands your leadership and what

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Hmm.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

are trying to accomplish in the business, right? That, that if you. Come to a, uh, if you come to a consultant, you say, we do X, and they go, great, I've got it. I'll take it from here. That's a recipe for disaster because they're gonna go in a direction that they're not aligned with where the leadership is. So they need to be good listeners, whether it's in-house or external. They need to be taking the time to listen and learn and understand where the business is really trying to go and where you are in that journey. Right? sometimes you're talking about, you know, uh, doing a fundraise. You realize, gosh, they really haven't done the brand work yet. They haven't done the origin story yet, Gosh, I need to come in and actually pull that out of the CEO and the

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Yes.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

okay, this is, this is the four minutes that you're gonna use from now on, because that's what you're using in the fundraising pitch, right? so there's, there's really important things that come out of it. And then third someone who is. Detail oriented enough to follow through and actually deliver. Um, I hate to say there are a number of people that we've run into internally and externally who are great idea people. They are great at, at strategizing and thinking about the possibilities of where you can go from a brand perspective or even from a distribution perspective. But they've gotta actually deliver on it at the end of the day as well.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Yeah, you mentioned kind of the messaging and brand and we, I've worked with a number of communications folks over the years, and the best ones do what you said, which is pull the story out

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Yeah.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

people. Because a lot of times, especially with founders, they're, they're in it so deep and. Every day. And sometimes they can't see their own story or know how to tell it without like, and then this happened, and then next quarter and then this month, and then I felt this way. And then I was like, you've gotta make this open-ended story, especially if you're looking for fundraising where you include your personal story and you include the narrative arc of your company, but you leave it open-ended for the funder to come in. And, and say you could be part of this story. So I have had whole conversations around that, but I love that you said they help them craft the story and pull it out of them. It's not that, um, they're telling a story that could already be told. That process is bringing that story out. So I just wanted to highlight that, that piece.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

and look the, it, it's incumbent upon the CEO, the founding team, the, the, the chief of staff as well, to help them understand that they've gotta also put a stake in the ground with their narrative, right? We've run into a number of companies, especially when they're earlier stage, where they've approached the world with a maximum. Flexibility or optionality. And that's enabled them to kind of like zigzag through a variety of different challenges. But what it's, what it's caused them to do is actually not be comfortable being. Pinned into a corner, right? Like you've gotta anchor yourself. You've gotta anchor your story in some way, shape or form, um, in order to get through the next stages, you know, whether it's funding or product launch or whatever. Like who are these guys? And, and some leadership teams really struggle with that process. They have to get comfortable that they are going to be defined at the end of the day. Um, and it's hard, it's scary sometimes.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Yeah. Yeah. So I'll open it up to both of you. What are some stories or anecdotes of when onboarding a chief communications officer or communications resource goes well and maybe what not to do?

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Tracy, you've got, you've got way more experience on this.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Yeah. You know, I mean, it's interesting. The other thing I was gonna add, just to build on what you just said, Mike, is one thing that I think chiefs of staff do really well is make sure that any communication, especially in the early days if you are new to a comms function, is make sure that that communications. Stor that that story is authentic, right? So chiefs of staff have such a good read on the voice of, of a principal, and so making sure that everything that's coming out, I mean today, you know, you can spot inauthenticity, right off the bat. And so any sort of brand seeking to communicate really is looking to capture the voice. And, you know, if you read a speech and you're like, eh. He wouldn't talk like that. She wouldn't talk like that. They wouldn't communicate that way. Um, so getting a read on that I just think is so helpful. But to your question, in terms of onboarding agencies, I mean, again, first and foremost, making sure that that agency or that communications function or resource has a line in to the organization so that they're getting regular. And real time updates. I think at the beginning of any sort of relationship, whether it's an external or internal communications hire, you need to have a really strong. Ability to articulate your goals. Why are, why are you bringing on additional communications support? What, what are the business objectives and how are you gonna architect a communications platform that really supports that program? So being clear and consistent to me are, are sort of the top two. Um. The top two things to take away. And in terms of things that go wrong, I mean, gosh, you know, like all of my, all of my examples, um. Are, are really pandemic related. I, I had a, a friend in the industry who called the Pandemic Crisis Palooza, and it really, it really was, although I do think it elevated the communications function. And Mike, I'd be interested in, in your thoughts as to how that's played out post pandemic. Um, but you know, God, it's everything in terms of. Uh, like my, my favorite example, or favorite is I, I don't know if you remember better.com, did layoffs, uh, mass layoffs over Zoom right before the holidays. Um, you know, anything, I always hear from founders after a crisis, like, oh, we didn't think they would notice. We didn't think anyone would notice. Well, everyone notices everything these days and, you know, to Warren Buffet. Famous quote, it takes 20 years to build a reputation in five minutes to destroy it. I think it probably takes about two seconds to destroy it in this climate. Um. You really start to see that any, anything and everything is public. And so communications teams that don't understand that a text thread can be screenshot. You know, we've seen that and, and put out on, on social media. Really everything is public and so you have to have a strong understanding of what that means and how you might react.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Yeah.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Mike, any fun stories from your end?

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

The, the ones that go wrong always seem to be the, the sexier, funnier ones. Um, we had a client several years ago that came to us, and, and I admit when they first came to us, I thought they were almost too early stage. For, to get involved with us. And then we sat down with the leadership team and I began to understand how brilliant they were for asking for help, um, to find, uh, a head of communications. We were working with, uh, a, a company that now unfortunately no longer exists, um, called Ohana Biosciences, that was, uh, uh, funded by flagship Pioneering, which had created Moderna and several other phenomenal, uh, biotech companies Uh, Ohana was focused in family planning, and specifically they were looking at, uh, the, the male side of infertility. And, uh, we're starting to talk about a, a technology or process. They had to increase sperm motility, um, which is a really interesting thing to talk about for three months in the market. Lemme um, and so they started to describe all this and, and they had literally, I think it was 11 or 12 people in the. They were in this temporary space in Cambridge. It was, it was as garage band as you could imagine. And we started talking through it with the CEO and the COO and what they landed on, the reason why they said they needed help was they knew that their, um. That their, uh, ability to take the technology and actually gain scale was based on a being able to reach clinicians so they understood what that, that communications journey looked like to get clinicians to begin to pay attention. They knew where they needed to compete with kind of established treatments like IVF, um, and also, uh, uh, dovetail with IDF, but they also understood. How they needed to develop communication strategies to address both sides of the, of the couple. Right? So how do they go and engage the man in the relationship and how do they go and engage the woman in the relationship? And, and they didn't have it all figured out, right? But they understood those three things and I went. Oh my gosh, you're brilliant because you understand that your ability to succeed in this is, you know, I'll say 40 to 50% the technology and the science, but it's 50% the communications

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Yeah.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

to be able to get customers to want to be able to use this. And they're like, yep, absolutely. And I was like, we are all in. And it was, it was a phenomenal experience and we placed someone and, and they had a, a wonderful. experience for a couple of years. Unfortunately, the technology itself didn't take hold. Um, but the work that they were doing was phenomenal. But it started with the leadership team really understanding'cause I was ready to tell them, you shouldn't go hire a, a head of comms. You should go and use an external resource. And only because they had really mapped out. The journey where I went, okay, you understand the scope of work that you're gonna need this person to accomplish, and you understand why you want them to come in. Because as the technology journey, uh, evolves, it might change. The messaging or the, or the narrative as well. Um, and so I was like, yep, okay. Got it. but there are plenty of companies where we said, don't, you know, don't go hire someone yet. Go and hire, uh, an external resource first. Um, gosh, I mean, there are, there are a number of, uh, people who've done it wrong. I, I try not to pick on people too much.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Well

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

What.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

it's interesting'cause there's also one piece, um, that I, I think is probably of paramount importance, but maybe a little bit less sexy to talk about, which is budget

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Yeah.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

what we do find that's really tricky. Is people will start, companies will start working with an agency that has varied resources. So they'll have social media strategists, designers, media relations specialists, and then when they start thinking about an internal hire, I have this conversation with them because you really have to think about, are you gonna hire one person that you. Spec to replace all of those capabilities? Or is this person going to manage that external resource, or can you hire two people? So really looking at the nitty gritty, what you're spending your budget on with your agency. Are you using the design team well? Okay. If that's the majority of, of what you're spending time on, maybe it makes sense to hire or part-time. You know, graphic designer and really trying to figure out, because these, these are big expenses and I think people expect immediate results, and these things take time. Communications is multifaceted. So really trying to balance what your needs are. Um, and the, I think the chief of staff can be really instrumental in that, in that conversation because they tend to have. A big picture view of what's going on at the organization and what perhaps the needs might be, you know, three months, six months, nine months down the road.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

And

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

I think,

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

a lot of time helping leadership teams

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

yeah.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

down in communications into uh, uh, finite sub-functions so that they are thinking about. The right we're, we're making the comparison constantly to, to finance or to hr, to other things that are being scaled, right? Where you went, gosh, I, I had a bookkeeper, I used, you know, a service. Now I'm bringing it in-house. I need this, I need that. Right? And understanding what it, what the trade-offs are to Tracy's point in terms of, okay, if you take your whole agency budget and you hire one person, you're probably gonna end up being disappointed at the end of the day.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

It's an onboarding fail.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

The, you know, the person's not gonna be able to, to match what 8, 10, 12, 20 people might be doing in an agency. with a depth, right. Functionally each

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Sure. Sure.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

brings. Um, but really beginning to understand what that, what that journey looks like in terms of building a function. And, and each one is different, right? So we talk about employee communications as being a, a big thing. Usually companies will come to us and go. Gosh, we need to build an employee communications function, and it's because they've gotten to the place, at least I'll say in the olden times before the pandemic where you couldn't put everybody in one room anymore, right? You, you couldn't put everybody in the lobby of the building and, and talk to and have the CEO talk to'em all at once. So now we need to think about building infrastructure. to be able to communicate more readily with a, with a rapidly growing employee base. Um, those are natural, right? But then there's trade offs. What is the investment that they're gonna make financially and otherwise, right?'cause the other part of this is as this company grows, as this communications function grows, as it evolves, there's more required of the leadership team.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Mm.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Their time and effort is part of this function as well, and a lot of, uh, uh, founders miss out on that and, and, and don't understand that and get frustrated by that.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

I wanna touch on something you said, which is comparing it to a finance function because most people at understand at a basic level. You've got like accounting and then CFO and like forecasting contingency plans. I feel like a lot of people think of communications as like this monolithic thing that just kind of sits there, like, uh, so maybe you can mention just some more. You mentioned we have, you know, the external pieces and crisis communication and messaging and branding. You touched on the internal pieces like employee engagement. Are there any other big ones or common ones you see get overlooked or missed by people?

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Uh, so I'll offer a couple, I'm sure Tracy has some as well. I mean, media relations is the thing that most people are looking for first and foremost, right? So it could be as simplistic and egotistical as, you know, my CEO wants to be on the cover of Wired. And so that's the goal. At the end of the

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Hey, that has his place. Yep.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

have that request. Try to explain to them how that works. Um, you know, the employee communications or internal communications is a, is as a separate part. Those are kind of the two biggest. So we kind of talk about external versus internal. Um, usually what we end up talking about with leaders is think about the different audiences that you're trying to reach, right? So, know, employees. Customers, investors or potential investors. Um, in some cases you're dealing with regulated industries, so you might have to worry about regulators or elected officials, especially if you're trying to build a building or a plant or something like

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Right.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Um, up and down the value chain. If you're working with resellers or you're working with partners, how are you communicating with them? That's something that this person can actually help you with. And, and I've watched a number of CEOs go. God. Yeah. Gosh. Like they understand need to use them to help talk to our resellers more. Yes, absolutely. Please use them and listen to them in that regard. But I mean, we, we talk about the audience model more because it helps people then think about how to utilize resources against that and how to think about the communications that they're using and say, oh, this thing that we're saying over here to employees. Our investors are absolutely gonna find out because somebody's gonna post it on Reddit. and so we need to be aware of what the implications of that is.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Well, I think the audience model is really smart because most people get that it's intuitive. And also your sperm mobility example, they had identified their key audiences, their external audiences, and that got them the 40 or 50% where then someone could come and go, oh, okay, like these are your three stakeholders, constituencies, and the. The narrative and story changes a little bit. Not that you're lying or manipulating it, but it just changes it depending on the audience. So I think the audience model that, that makes a lot of sense. So, sorry Tracy, you're gonna say something?

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

No, no. The only thing I'd add to that, um, and it kind of fits within your model, um, but kind of crosses all audiences is that you're really starting to see a lot of companies invest in individuals solely dedicated to digital or social media and or content creation. Um, and that is, I think, you know, because of this going direct, this idea that we are going to kind of. Take hold of this brand building process, and we're not just gonna rely on press or third party stakeholders. Um, and you know, again, as I mentioned, this is a big topic in the communications industry and I, I, you know, just is going direct paramount it, you know, how much reliance should we place on press and third party stakeholders? I'm of the mindset that it needs to kind of be balanced because there's still a lot of credibility when a member of the press or a third party stakeholder says something positive about you. But I get that. That's another conversation. Um, but I will say in hiring for content and, and digital media, I mean, it's really interesting. I was struck when you were talking about being able to pull the story out of founders or executives and. You're starting to see actually a lot of former reporters and journalists find their way into communications roles. It's actually very, um, pretty prevalent in the venture space and investment space. And I think that's largely because they do such a great job with story building, with extracting that story. Um, and then you're, in addition to kind of these, you know, social media strategists, you're also starting to see organizations hiring editors. Right, so they actually are hiring someone who is solely dedicated to creating and curating content, which I think is a really interesting development.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

And then if we look at a more established company who has a full-time chief communications officer, who is a member of the C-Suite team, is running internal and external, you mentioned as that. Role grows more time investment is needed from the CEO, from the founder, from other members of the team. But if A CEO is looking at their executive team and saying, how are we doing? How is each individual doing? How do you know a chief communications officer is doing good for a lack of a better phrase?

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Yeah. Well, so Mike, I can, I can hand it to you to talk maybe a little bit more about how, how people hire and the various things they're looking for that they might be holding this up against. You know, there are so many things out there today that people use to measure the success of their communications programs. You know, various, we could go through everything from the various like engagement metrics on social media surveys, you know. programs that measure how, how often and how well internal communications are resonating. I tend to think about it just broadly speaking for this purpose, is that a really good CCO is gonna bring you crisis before they arise and opportunities before they're obvious. So this is not someone who's a firefighter or a cheerleader, they're a strategist and I think. Previously, and Mike, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this too. It was almost thought of too much as a service function. And as I mentioned earlier, I, I really think the pandemic changed that. It's not that organizations had not evolved until that moment, but I just feel like it really solidified the role of the communications officer in the C-suite and having the same, you know, it can be challenging when you don't have a p and l in an organization. And to me that really highlighted, okay, even if you don't have that, you are a key part of this team and your strategic advice is critical in helping us reach our business goals.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Yeah. I, I would say, just to, to that last point, Tracy, the, the impact of the pandemic more than anything else was that it made CEOs. Actually understand what each of the functions in their company does because they had to, they had to look at every aspect of their company and say, how are we going to potentially transform or utilize different aspects and, and emphasize different aspects or different functions within our company in order to help us operate going forward. Right. So maybe the facilities team took a bit of a backseat because you weren't using facilities anymore, but they were, you know, adding value in a, in a variety of different ways. Um, you know, going forward, communications obviously took a, a front seat on a lot of the, the aspects of, uh, of, you know, coming out of the pandemic. Um, you know, to go back to the question in terms of, you know, what makes someone succeed. I, we actually work with CEOs to kind of. Develop that, that understanding for themselves, you know, what are the three or four things that you want to see them achieve? Um, what is, what is happening in the business as a result of it? And it can be to Tracy's point, um, you know, eradicating barriers, right? So again, to use a regulated industry model, how do we, how do we engage a regulator so that. They weren't challenging us. I think the, the, the crypto space has been very successful at that over the last couple of years. In particular, you go and look at what they've done from a communications or a corporate affairs perspective. When you start to engage government affairs and policy and advocacy is part of that and kind of create a bigger umbrella that's integrated, they've done a successful job of reducing or removing barriers. Um, not so much. Uh, uh, advocating or telling this amazing story about crypto, I think that's what they were doing three or four years ago. The last year or two has actually been more about reducing and taking away, and that's the ones you've be seen be very successful in that space.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

And I am wondering too, how much of it is there's the external. Brand and messaging. There's like the reputation and credibility piece of that, but also like what do we stand for when you hear this brand name or this founder name, like boom, boom. Here are the two things that you know about or you think you know about this company or person. Same thing internally, do, does the rank and file person know like, oh, this is what being part of this company and being part of this team means, and how I contribute to that story. It was funny, I was listening to an interview. Um. It was with Ron Howard who directed Apollo 13,

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Yeah.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

and he was talking about hiring Tom Hanks as, uh, I think it was John Lovett or who, who was one of the astronauts that went up there. You know, Houston, we have a problem and people wanted other actors besides Tom Hanks and the studies before that film come out. It was like no one would believe that Tom Hanks would be an astronaut, and Ron Howard said, but everyone would want Tom Hanks back safe on earth because that was his brand. Like everyone loves Tom Hanks.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Right, right.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

and it's just like, it reminded me of Yeah, it was kinda like you. Yeah. So it kind of reminded me, you know, you kind of have this, um, like core thought or baseline of a company or someone in your head, and then when crisis does come or when something comes to challenge that you already have an established story. So I'm wondering, like, that's just something to throw out there. Is that part of a, a communications project plan?

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Definitely. And also, you know how that ties to recruiting, right? You know, particularly in the tech space, like it's a tight talent market. And your ability to tell that story and to get your employees to believe in that story and believe that they're furthering, uh, a mission that they believe in, or producing a product or a service that they believe in, you know, pays dividends for your. your HR team and trying to recruit people who wanna be a part of your team,

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

And nowhere is that more important than in earlier stage companies before you've gotten venture capital money to begin with, right? convincing people to come work. Typically under market value, um, based on either challenge, opportunity, you know, impact, um, and you're, you're selling a vision. And for the companies that actually can, can do that quickly, and it's, it's usually verbally, it's, you know, and it almost feels like you're making it up on the fly, but if you say it four or five times, that's the truth. That is your, that is your narrative at the end of the day. Um, and because you're gonna have four or five people sitting in a room together in front of computers working on something, you go, why are you all here? And they're all gonna say the same version or enough of the same version. You go, okay, that's the truth. That's, that's who you are, that's who you want to be. Um, so it's, it's an interesting challenge.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Is there I am. I imagine there can be a big gap between what I think of myself and then what other people, what other people's story are of me, whereas like, we need to close this gap. And is that sometimes that difficult conversation is that sometimes people are open to it? How does, how does that roll out?

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

I think it depends. Okay. I think it depends on the person that, if, if you're talking about, you know, communicating to a founder or a leader, I think it just depends on their, their previous experiences. I think if you have a, where we've run into issues is when you have a pretty. Um, successful serial entrepreneur, this is their third or fourth company. They've, it goes both ways. They've either been really successful such that, you know, reality checks don't resonate or they've had previous bad experiences with press

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Hmm

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

communications such that it held, holds them back from telling their story.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

successful is an interesting to use, right? Because we've worked with, we've worked with CEOs who have had multiple exits. That, that is a measure of success. I have nothing to, to, to argue with that. But all of a sudden there is something that, that isn't going to be sold, that is now all of a sudden reaching different benchmarks that they've never reached before as a CEO that they've never experienced before. And their ability to turn around and look to the rest of their leadership team and say, I need, I need guidance from you in certain aspects of this. Because we're, I'm personally now hitting uncharted space. Right. And the chief of staff plays a critical role in both kind of nudging the CEO as appropriate because they are really trusted by the CEO to, to kind of be that, that, that, you know, yang to the yin, um, and to say, look, hey, you know, I think we're, I think we're getting to un uh, uncharted waters around. Personal brand, like you were never tested, you were never scrutinized in this way when you sold the last three companies.'cause you got to a couple hundred million, you sold it and, and pretty much nobody outside of the valley knew who you were. And that was great. now on a bigger stage. Right. And part of that is based on where we are from a digital and social media perspective today. But part of that might be where the business is as well,

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Yeah.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

I would say too, you know, tech founders in particular tend to be an optimistic bunch. sometimes that optimism, which I, I would attribute probably to some of the most successful innovations of the last, you know, decade or two decades can be blinding. So it does fall often on the communications officer, on the chief of staff because they are, at the end of the day, like head of principal management to, to offer those reality checks

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Yeah.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

sometimes things aren't always going, you know, perfectly.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Yeah.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

As we wind down here, what's one more thing that you have wanna dispel? A misconception or a piece of advice or word of wisdom out to communica chief communications officers to executives. Anyone else just hearing and learning about this space?

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

The only piece of advice I would offer in this community is it's not someone else's problem.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Hmm.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Hiring does not make it someone else's problem, right? Just in the same way that you hired A CFO, you are still responsible for the profit and loss, and that means you need to understand how to read your profit and loss statement in order to be able to do that, right? If you're going to be. The CEO you need to understand, you need to play an active role in your narrative, in your origin story. You need to understand that you are the face of the business and, and that has both great opportunities, but also great risks and challenges associated with it. And so getting support, whether it's internal, whether it's external, whether it's part-time, you know, however you want to go do that, but getting support to understand. How to behave in that way as the face of the company and the impacts of doing it. I mean, Yohan Musk is either brilliant because he is gone direct, or he's an imbecile because he is blown through more chief communications officers in record time than anybody else I've ever known and clearly doesn't listen to what they have to say. Um. But I would argue that he's probably made different points in his life a lot harder than they needed to be because he wasn't willing to listen to the council.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. Um, I, I guess I would just add to that where we've seen founders and this, this is something that's, that's actionable where we've seen founders really be successful with brand building is they make it a community activity. And this is also where, you know, the chief of staff and the. The communications officer can be really helpful. So have so many tools at our disposal, right? And the founder is super active in brand building, but you have investors, you have partners, you have customers, you have the people in your family and friends, and your work community that are cheering you on. You have employees. And so when you look at building that. Brand, you want everyone to kind of, you know, be singing from the same prayer book. And so equipping your stakeholders to be supportive of the message you're trying to

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Hmm.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

and get out there. I mean, you know, something like, like a fundraise for example, which I know we've spoken about a couple of times. Equipping those stakeholders to amplify your message has made those moments so much more successful for so many of our founders. And it's actually, you know, a relatively simple thing to do. You know, make it easy for people to cheer you on.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

That's a great one. Yeah. Thank you. Who do you help and how, and if someone is listening, like I wanna get in touch with Tracy or Mike, what is the best way to do that for both of you? I.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Tracy, go ahead.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

No, I, you should feel free to reach out to us. We're at media@revolution.com. I absolutely do see those emails, read them and respond to them. Um, I'm also, you know, on LinkedIn and X, so feel free to reach out.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

same. I'm on LinkedIn. You can reach me atMichael@patinoassociates.com. Um, and I read every last single one of them, so.

emily-sander_1_06-24-2025_090559:

Beautiful. We'll have all that information in the show notes, but Mike Tracy, thank you so much again.

michael-patino_1_06-24-2025_120559:

Thank you.

tracy-van-grack_1_06-24-2025_120559:

you, Emily.