Leveraging Leadership

From Google to Coaching: Supporting Leaders and Building Relationships in Business

• Emily Sander • Season 1 • Episode 231

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Emily Sander talks with Katie Rohn about her journey from sales to strategy at Google and her time as a Chief of Staff. They share stories about the different versions of the Chief of Staff role, how relationships shape the job, and why self-reflection matters during career transitions. Katie explains how she coaches generalists and Chiefs of Staff, and both discuss the pros and cons of taking the scenic route in your career.


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Who Am I?

If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want. 

 

Time Stamps:

01:20 Journey to Chief of Staff at Google
03:26 Roles and Responsibilities of a Chief of Staff
09:38 Transition to Coaching and Career Reflections
22:42 Exploring Career Paths for Chiefs of Staff
25:13 Balancing Personal Values and Career Growth
29:33 Navigating Relationships in the Chief of Staff Role
36:52 Adapting to Changes and Finding the Right Fit

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Katie is in the house. How are you, Katie?

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Hi. I'm well, how are you, Emily?

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

I'm good. It's always good to speak with you. So we are here on podcast day introducing you to our audience. So Katie and I, um, are both, Katie is a former chief of staff at Google and we are both coaches now who work with chiefs of staff on the regular. So we're gonna discuss kind of Katie's background and her experience in the chief of staff role. And then we thought it would just be fun to have. Kind of like a brainstorming conversation around where the chief of staff role fits in one's career, and is that in the beginning? Is that toward the middle? Is that toward the end and all the different permutations that that can have? But Katie, thank you so much for taking the time and being on the show.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Thank you for having me. I am so excited for our chat today.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

It's beautiful. Well, as I alluded to, you were chief of staff at Google, so tell, tell us, tell the people how did that happen? What was that like? What were you doing?

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yeah. Yeah. So I was at Google for about seven and a half years before I went off to do coaching, full-time. And I moved through a couple different functions while I was at Google, actually. I started in sales and loved it. Um, I, I, I, I miss it some days. It was really, I, I love the people element of sales and we had a really fun team. But while I was on a sales team, I was a manager. I was. my day-to-day work and decided to take on a project, sort of like an additional project to my, my core role supporting a very senior leader on our team with some strategic comms work. And that just sucked me. And I absolutely loved the work and. when the chief of staff role was really put on my radar as something that I could consider in my career. And the next role I took on at Google ended up being exactly that. And that was, then I sort of, I moved into more of the strategy and operations side of the business at that point. So I spent about half of my career at Google and sales, more customer facing. And then the second half, um, in strategy and operations roles. Chief of Staff was a formal title that I held, and then I was in other roles that were doing Chief of Staff things in

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Totally. Acting chief of staff? Yes.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

exactly.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

just outta curiosity. So I've, we've had, uh, some, a chief of staff from Google and Microsoft and there were other chiefs of staff in the organization at these large corporations. We've had several multinational corporation chief of staff on, and it's interesting to me, sometimes they're like. It's kind of by region. It's kind of by preference. Like if a principal wants a chief of staff, they get one. If a VP or up wants one, sometimes they're called chief of staff, sometimes they're not. At your time in Google and in the, in the department or division you are in. How did that work?

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yeah, within my organization, leaders at a certain level or with a certain title had a chief of staff. Um, so I think there were about, I might get this wrong, like six or seven of us that li that were like officially within my, within the specific organization that I was part

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Okay.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Um, and, you know, we'll, you know, we'll probably get into it because. We love talking about this, but, um, it was so interesting to see even then, right? Like so many other chiefs of staff within the same organization, um, within a larger company having such different experiences, right? Like there were some, some, there were some parallels. That we all navigated together and we could collaborate in those ways. But I remember feeling like, oh wow, this is so interesting. Like, we're really, we really are all experiencing very different things, um, and therefore, like one solution is not just going to fit everyone. And I, I've taken a lot of that experience into the way that I approach coaching with a lot of my clients.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Different chief of staff versions, even within the same company, even within the same area of the business. So. Interesting. Did, did your principal, were they familiar with chief of staff role and how to fully optimize that? Or was it a bit of learning as you, as you go?

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yes,

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

I.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

yes. My principal was, and it's interesting that you asked that question'cause Yeah, I, I talked to so many chiefs of staff that have, um, various experiences of that, right? Like some people are chief of staff or principal where it's their first time. Um. Others are chief of staff or principal, where they've, you know, had many chiefs of staff. Um, but then there's like all the experiences in between. Like maybe a principal has moved to a new organization or moved to a different role, right? They're experiencing new people. Like there's always some, there's some variables that, that change it up in between. So, um. It. I had the experience where my principal had worked with the chief of staff and so, um, I think that helped for sure in us being able to navigate that relationship. But it was my first experience as a chief of staff, so there was a lot of work I had to do to figure out what that

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Ah. Yeah. Yeah. What were, what types of things were you doing? Just like, just a few handful of examples maybe of what you would do as a chief of staff at Google.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yeah, there was a lot of, um, I would say a lot of business operations work, so there were some more senior members of the team like that I reported into that worked on a lot of the strategic work. Then I really helped with the execution of that work. then there were also parts of my work that were focused on culture and I loved that part of the role. Um, so I would say like between those two, there was a lot there. And then, and then just overall, like, I think this probably fits into a lot of like the business operations and business management, but running like. the weekly leadership meetings and, and um, any sort of leadership offsites or workshops that we would do together.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah, and I remember when I came in as Chief of Staff, no one at the co there was the first chief of staff ever. No one knew what the heck that was. Some people had a really big problem with, what the heck is Emily doing? Some people were like, no, I see what she's doing. Oh, no. She adds a lot of, oh, keep doing that. Please. You help. You help, and you help me. But there was. A pretty broad range of opinions about who this Chief of staff was and if the role was valuable. I was wondering, you know, did, what was the response or just reaction from your team or your peers or the people maybe in other departments that you were working with where it's like, oh, okay, Katie's here and she's so-and-so's chief of staff.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yeah. Well it is so interesting because there's so many different relationships that you're navigating as a chief of staff. There are other, there are variables at play, whether it's, um, maybe there are new members of a leadership team or maybe a company has gone through a reorg, right? There are all these variables at play that are affecting your role as a chief of staff and maybe how familiar the people around you are about what your role is. And so I think cultivating those relationships is. important. I talk, I talk a lot about this in my work as I coach people, um, which is there are sort of like three external relationships that you navigate as a chief of staff if you were to like really kind of bucket them. And then there's one internal relationship, which is the relationship with yourself. And that's where you, you know. Do some work on what your needs are, what your vision is, what your goals are, but the external relationships are your principal, the leadership team, and the broader organization. And I like to. Think of it that way. And with my clients, they find it very helpful because it does sort of break it down in a way where you can like really diagnose where am I at? Like what is, how healthy are each of these relationships? Or where do I need to spend more time? Or where maybe there are gaps. People don't understand the work that I'm doing and it'd be really valuable if they did. Um, and so I like to break it down in that way. And that was definitely. Also came out of what I experienced in my role as, oh, like. Reflecting back now, I'm like, oh, if I had focused on these as like compartments and like maybe even started with myself and said like, okay, what do I need? Or like, what are the limiting beliefs that I have? Or like, what, what uh, narratives am I telling myself each day that I'm then like taking into work with me and bringing to each of those relationships? So I find, I find that helpful and I, yeah, I would say to address your question, it is. essential to invest in those relationships.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

2020 hindsight is just such a, such a tricky thing. It's beautiful. Sometimes it's like, oh, come on. Like, I wish I could have done that over. But I have plenty of those from chief of staff and other parts of my life. But, um, yes.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Well, and what a gift to, to be able, especially for, you know, for us having experience in the chief of staff role and, and similar roles, to be able to look back and, and think about what we might've missed or what we would've done differently, and then how we can bring that to our clients or, you know, help guide our clients towards some of that insight.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah. And I wanna talk about the, your transition to full-time coaching. I mean, thinking of 2020 hindsight, looking back at your chief of staff role now, what, what did you learn or what were the pieces that were memorable and kind of bubbled to the top now that you have a little bit of space from it?

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yeah. Well, I feel like, um. Reflecting back, right? You can start to connect all these dots and, and paint this picture a little bit more. You're like, oh yeah. Like that's the story. I get it now. but I would say that the through line, from my experience as a chief of staff. Up to where I am now. And I even felt this earlier on in my career, but I think it really started to make sense while I was a chief of staff is, um, I really love being an enabler for others to do great work. And I think this is what attracted me to the chief of staff role in the first place is, um, I believe in really strong leadership and, uh, I think being able to support a leader and a leadership's team is, An incredible opportunity I sort of, I, I sort of bring that same mindset to the work as a coach, like being able to enable others and, and support them to their careers or find greater fulfillment in their careers or, um, reach that big career milestone is, um, that is. It's huge for me and I think that's what guides a lot of my, that's what's guided a lot of my career decisions,

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

since that chief of staff role.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

That's so funny because I also resonate with the behind the scenes person. And I remember early in my career, I thought you had to be the big gregarious, like I love people and being on stage and the lights and the attention. I'm like, I don't, but I don't. I mean, I can try to force myself into that, but that's not me. And then once I realized, oh no, first of all, you can be a leader in a whole bunch of different ways, but there's also this whole. Kind of echelon of people who make a career out of being the behind the scenes people in multiple capacities. And in some ways, chief of staff is like the penultimate, like behind the scenes strategist. And you can, you know, force multiplier and all those different things where you can optimize that thing and unlock your entire executive team where, you know, one plus one plus one plus one plus one equals 25. You know, so. I think I love, I love that aspect of it. In your career, where did the chief of staff role fit in? I think, did you make the jump directly from Google to coaching, or was there one stop in between?

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

I had, um, a stop in between where I was doing some chief of staff like work. Um, I was focused very specifically on uh, sales enablement, which is where I feel like it was interesting'cause I was doing some chief of staff like work. Um, and focused on how we enable sellers to do great work. So sort of where I felt like so many parts of my career were coming together, like having the sales background, having the chief of staff background and. And coaching. I mean, this is where coaching also started to come through. Uh, you know, coaching is a powerful tool for sales enablement. so, uh, I, that's where it all really came together. It's like all these gifts along your career, like you collect these insights, right? Like not every career decision you make is maybe the best. Right. Like you might take, take some wrong turns, but I think being able to look back and, and appreciating all of that as incredible insight that gets you closer to where you wanna go. Um, I, I completely feel that way,

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah, I, I call my wrong turns, the scenic route. I just took the scenic route to where I was trying to go. Um.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

I love that.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

But you also mentioned, I love that you said the internal relationship you have is always with yourself. And if we apply that to 2020 hindsight, it's, Hey, what did I learn from that quote unquote, you know, left turn or wrong turn or scenic route. I've, I've made some turns like that where I was like, Ooh, ooh, that, let's go this way. But I learned. The most from those experiences, right? It's like, what wise people and wisdom says forever. And you read it in like a fortune cookie, you're like, yeah, whatever is true. Like it's really true. You, you learn so much from those experiences. So do you, was there like one moment when you're like, I'm gonna make the leap to coach it like this, is it, this is it? Or was it just the slow build and culmination of this is, is the next step here?

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yeah, it was more of the latter. I would say. It was more of the slow build. What I was feeling was, um. know how they say there's like a, a push and a pull when you're making a career change, right? You feel the push and then usually you should feel like the pull in a specific direction. And I say to some clients, like, if you're just feeling the push, like let's talk about that. Um, a long time I was feeling the push like I was ready for, um. Something different, being creative in different ways, different environments. Um, I was also making personal changes in my life to move to a different location um, I wasn't entirely sure. Over, you know, series of months where that poll was really was, and coaching was on my radar, but I was sort of like, is that, is that, I don't know, like could I do that? And so there was a lot of back and forth there and it really was when I went through my coaching training and I got to experience coaching much, closer. And I got to experience. coaches that were out there doing this work that showed me what was possible and inspired me about like what I could be doing. And, uh, I think that's, that's really what, um, gave me the little, like, the nudge, like solidified the pull. Like this is the direction you wanna go in. um, But it was a slow build. Yeah.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Gotcha. And then just, just quick recap. Who do you work with? What, what does that look like? Now, I know chiefs of staff are in the mix, but just kind of the overview.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

yes. I work with generalists that are navigating various career transitions and telling their story around that. I work with a lot of people that have, um, a fair amount of experience. Maybe they're mid or later stage careers and. Sometimes they've sort of fallen into a career and they've continued to get promoted and grow their career in that space. But they've hit a point where they're realizing it's not necessarily for them, um, that they really wanna sort of like take the wheel and, and go in a slightly different direction. And so I work with. Especially generalists, like helping them tell their stories around that. Um, and I have experience with that too, right? Like not necessarily being a specialist where it's easy to be like, here's all the things that I've done. Here's the value that I've added. And sometimes you have to get a little bit creative, um, and, and in this job market, so I work with a lot of people that are navigating that. I sort of break it down into vision. Mindset, mindset, and action. And so I love helping people figure out the vision that they have for themselves. And sometimes that takes a little bit of work. It takes pause, like time to pause and slow down, actually reflect on that and. don't always have those moments in life or, you know, sometimes our lives aren't really set up for that. And so I, that's why I think coaching can be really powerful. The mindset piece is one of my favorite parts is because this is where you get to really navigate some of what I was talking about earlier, some of the limiting, limiting beliefs or the narratives that are maybe keeping you stuck or keeping you from re getting to that vision. Um, right. Like you have to sort of align to the vision and, and figure out what is the mindset need to have to get there. Um, or what do I need to be aware of to get there? And then the last piece is the action. I love strategizing with people. Like this is where we get creative and we experiment, and I love that work. So those are kind of the three buckets. And then as, yes, as you were mentioning, I specifically work with chiefs of staff as well, which is. So much fun to like revisit the role in this capacity as a coach. And as I mentioned earlier, I work with a lot of chiefs of staff through the lens of those four relationships. Um, and I, I like that as a framework because it is very much tailored to the individual and what they're experiencing. it's not like, here's this one size fits all, you know? is how you do it. Um, and so there's a lot that gets unlocked through that, especially in the relationship with yourself, right? As I was saying earlier, like you can invest in that with a coach or with whomever, um, much unfolds beyond that in the other relationships that you have at work and, and maybe even beyond.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yes. And oftentimes people spend a lot of time and focus on the external relationships and not on themselves, which, which can get, can, can get out of balance. Um, but for the brain, oh, for sure. It's so easy to get sucked into. So easy to get sucked into. Um.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yeah, because I mean, like by nature that's, that is part of the role is is what you're, you're responsive, you're like sometimes reacting right to all these things that are hap people and environments that are around you. um, the, the to-do list can stack up really quickly with a lot of that stuff. And it can be hard to like come back to yourself when you're in that environment.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Hmm. To come back to yourself. Yeah. Yeah. For, so like a quick brainstorm here, um, just, just like throwing it out there, like what have you seen in terms of the, the career trajectory and immediacy versus long-term focus for people in and out of the chief of staff role?

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yeah. Well, so a few things that I've observed. One that. A lot of chiefs of staff enter this role without knowing what they wanna do after it. you and I have talked about this a little bit. find this a little bit surprising, although I did the same thing. I was just like it wrong. Right? Because I feel like there's a lot of advice out there that you should kind of know what you wanna do after it. So you can go in really like with, with that. Um, with that goal in mind, but I think it makes a ton of sense because I think one of the beautiful gifts that a chief of staff role offers is that you get exposure to so many different things. And that exposure is insight, right? Like you get to in what's happening around you, digest it and decide like, what's for you and what's not. And I think that's really powerful. I mean, when I reflect back on my career, I think the chief of staff role was one of, um, the most. Powerful roles in terms of ones that like really gave me clarity around like where to go next and where to sort of steer the career. So, um, I think that's a really interesting part of, of what so many people are navigating this role is that they, they. Maybe, maybe not stepped into it, not necessarily knowing what comes next. Maybe having a few ideas, but wanting to get more clarity as they move through the role. And I think that can be a great thing, but, but to do it really well, I recommend balancing that internal and external, right? So re so recognizing what's happening around me, what am I taking in, in the external environment, also like, what does this mean for me as like a unique person and, and what. I want in my career and in my life. And sometimes that takes some reflection, that takes some slowing down, that takes some, um, you know, working on that relationship. so I would say, um, I think that's one of the very interesting parts of like what career growth looks like in this role.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah, for sure. Where do you, where do you tend to see people go after a chief of staff role? I.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

You know, kind of all over. Um, I mean, I'm, I'm very interested to hear your thoughts on this. I, I usually have this conversation with people around, um, do you kind of wanna like stay a generalist or do you want to become a specialist? Um, and I think can look different. You know, based on what the individual wants, but also based on where they see growth for themselves, maybe in their current environments. Even like within their, the company that they're in, right? Like, do they, what do, what does that company value more like where, where's growth? so I would say like, if someone's growing as a generalist, maybe it's going into more like senior chief of staff roles or maybe you're like moving to a different chief of staff role in a different company. Right. Um. other generalist operator roles. And then you have the specialist side of things where I've seen chiefs of staff move into leadership roles for a very specific function, right? Like maybe they had a ton of exposure to that team or to that function through what they were doing as a chief of staff, and then they move there. um, some becoming entrepreneurs, some becoming coaches. So, um, I see a, I see a lot of different directions. I'm curious what, what you see.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah, I mean it's, it's all over the place, so I think for me, it's interesting. I, I guess it's about a 50 50 split of people who are going into the chief of staff. Well, very intentionally. Like for a reason, for a purpose, and then some who are like, I guess I'm a chief of staff now, like someone voluntold me to like go do the chief of staff thing. So I'm doing it.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yes,

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Um, but it's, it's interesting. I've had folks go. I'm going to be a chief of I, I've had people be like, I wanna be a career chief of staff. Like this is my, this is my jam. These are my people, this is my skillset, my strength, et cetera. I wanna be a chief of staff in different companies for the rest of my career. Great. And I have people going, I want to. Like you said, be an entrepreneur. I wanna be a founder and start my own company. The best place for me to learn about all aspects of the business is by being chief of staff and by being right next to a principal who's making the decisions that I would have to make and seeing how that works behind the scenes, I've had people, um, who come from the investment side. Of like PE and PE is like, I need you to get operational hands-on experience. So go get a chief of staff role at one of our Port cos for 18 months and then come back to the firm side. Uh, and then I, you know. Have people were like, I interviewed for a role. I thought it was this at the last minute they called it chief of staff. So now I'm a chief of staff. Emily, what do I do? And I was like, okay. All these different ones. And then, like you said, I've seen'em go to COO, I've seen'em go to, you know, the product side, kind of HR or general business operations, VP of strategic initiatives, just kind of all over the place from there. I, I like what you said though about. There's the internal reflection piece, and if you know yourself and learn more about yourself, it's kinda like a parallel path where external things are happening, careers moving, uh, companies are going in one direction, teams are going in one direction. And then how am I growing as a person? Like, oh, I like this type of work, not that type of work. I like these type of people, not this type of people. And kind of mixing the two as you make your career moves.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

yeah. Well, and I think it can be really challenging when. The environment that you're in, say it's an organization that you're a part of, values, something that you're not necessarily feeling connected to in terms of maybe like for growth. And I think that can be a hard reality to face as a chief of staff is like, do I wanna honor what I need? And that might mean leaving or going somewhere else so I can follow that thing that's important to me. Or am I gonna follow the growth of what's happening in the external environment?

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

and maybe that, maybe the external, maybe that the latter is. Is what's best for that individual. And there are reasons for that. But I think acknowledging that too, like when you

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

there's misalignment between what you want and what the environment is directing you towards and just being able, like being able to notice that and get honest with it and realize what's best for you.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

I think that's culture. Is that like the ex, like your environment and what they value at this company and then what you value. That's like a culture fit to me. It's like, it might not be, it's not, it's not saying it's a bad company or a bad person per se. It just might be misaligned. It's like I'm gonna be better suited over here. Uh, so I think that piece is important. And I also think I like the, um. Like, what do you need right now? You might need to learn how to operate in this type of environment, and that's just, you gotta, you know, if you're early in your career and you're kind of like, whoa, this is a lot, but like, I have to go through it and I have to learn it and this is a good way to learn it. Trial by fire or exposure therapy or whatever, that might be the best thing for you.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yeah, I know. I, I, I feel like this part is always gets so tricky with career navigation because, um. There are maybe certain, let's say, values that you wanna honor for yourself over the course of your career. then in like a, what I would maybe put in a separate category is priorities. And the priorities shift, right? Like at some points in your life, certain priorities are gonna, are gonna be above the others. Um. That I feel like that's a thing that you have to like, keep checking in with,

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

It changes.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

is life balance important to me right now? No. Okay. I'm gonna take that job that maybe I won't have that as much. Um, or is like, is leadership important to me? Like, I think there are all these priorities that maybe shift over the course of your career and then maybe they're like, you know, values we can, whatever we wanna call them that are, that kind of stay consistent over the

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah, that's good. I like that. Yeah, I'm like trying to like a, a value of mine. Would be like integrity, like I'm not gonna cheat or steal or embezzle or, you know, backs stab someone. So that's, that's been consistent through I hope, I hope for other people as well through my career. But early in my career, like I wanted money, I want a comp package, I wanted a title, like give me those things. And that did not stay consistent. So mid-career, late stage career, it was. I want influence. I wanna be at the table where decisions are being made. You don't have to take my idea every time, but I wanna at least have a voice at the table. That was really important to me. And then like now it's giving back and enabling others and, you know, coaching and all these different things. But, um, and I remember someone when I was like 20 saying, Emily, you know, when you get to be older, you might have a different outlook and things, your priorities might change. And I was like, no. No they won't. They will never change. And I was like, oh, that person was right. So I think, I think, I love what you said, just checking in.'cause the answer can change. It will change just as you live your life.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yeah.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

true and like it's really cool to hear you talk about like that. I mean, what a powerful compass that you have that's guiding you towards like all of these decisions that you're making about your career.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah. Well I think a lot of people, at least in my, in my coaching, like it sounds like yours too, like. Don't take the time to think about those things. And so they're kind of like swirling around and they're unmoored and don't, aren't centered in like, this is me, this is the core of who I am. And you can't, you can't rock me off dead center like this. This is just like I'm settled in. I'm sitting into who I am. I know who I am, and so I'll make decisions as they unco unfold and present themselves, but I'm not being like, swept away by something and then this person's opinion, and then this environment, and then this event type of thing that's that's different.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yeah, I mean it's so true'cause there's so much external noise

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Totally.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

that I feel like can, if we aren't checking in with ourselves or creating that time or space, um. It can get really murky. It's like, well, what do I actually want? Like, do I want that thing that people are telling me that I should want or don't know. And so I, I think that's where, um. Just being able to differentiate between the two, right? Like, okay, that is like an external thing that's coming to me. I'm gonna decide if that's for me or not. Like, is this useful information or is this something I wanna get curious about? but I think it can be really tricky. I mean, I just, I just wrote a LinkedIn post about sort of this this week about external validation because um, I was noticing with a lot of my clients when they were getting very positive. External validation, they felt really good about themselves. They felt super confident, um, especially job seekers. Um, and then when there were, when there was nothing, when there's crickets like in inbox, very active, um, there was all this doubt that was creeping in that was like, oh, did I mess up that interview or, right. And so I think it's such an interesting conversation to have when it comes to career, whether you're navigating interviews or promotions or transitions or. Or whatever that growth looks like to notice. That there's sort of like an internal and an external, and the external can be really helpful, right? Like we need other people to grow. Um, those are really wonderful support systems. Um, but again, like coming back to that balance of like making sure there's, there is the internal too. just using like the internal and the external. I just find that, like the easiest way to phrase it.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

um, I, I do think, yeah, the noise can get very loud and I think it can be disorienting. So creating that balance from the two, I feel like is a very, you know, applies to chiefs of staff, but really anyone.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah, what are you seeing in terms of like guidance for people and the chief of staff role? So where would you place the chief of staff role in someone's career? And I think. It can depend. I've seen, I've seen chief of staff interns where it's like, whoa, you have a chief staff internship right out of school or while you're in school. And then I, we have, I have, you know, chiefs of staff at Fortune 50 companies who, this is like the penultimate role in their career and, uh, they're directing global operations. Um, and I, I kind of talk about it with clients around. Things like chief of staff in my experience is not a nine to five job. So like you kind of have to be all in as chief of staff. So there's these intangible elements around the role you should consider. Not necessarily like it has to be in this sequence in my career, but what are you, what are you hearing?

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yeah, I mean, this is where I feel like it just, so much,

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

I.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

um, depending on the chief of staff role, but I think there, there, there's. A good conversation to be had. Ki I think there's so many interesting variables at play. It would, I'm like, it would be so helpful to know this earlier on if I hear like what this looks like. But, but, so here's some of the things that are coming to mind for me. One is for, you can have chiefs of staff that are very junior and you can have chiefs of staff that are very senior and. look very, very different. And um, the roles themselves look different. And then like the companies may look different, the principals are different. Um, the teams around, you'll be different for a more junior role, uh, at least in my experience, there have been more senior chiefs of staff involved. And also, um, working with that principal or with that leadership team. And so for that role, you're, it's, you're getting a ton of exposure. You, yes, maybe you're working beyond the nine to five, but maybe there are also other people playing roles there, especially when it comes to like some of the big strategic work at play. Um. And then you have like some of those more senior roles where, yeah, that might be the case. But again, I feel like a lot of it comes back to, um, the principal and their style and even your relationship with the principal. Like I, I feel like I've heard of some chiefs of staff that have really close, close relationships with their principal. Um. Relationship with the leader team, like how big the broader team is, right? Like, so I feel like at startups, like a chief of staff role may look very different than at like Google, where I was, um, in terms of like what you're owning and what your priorities are. So yeah, I feel like lots of thoughts there.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah. No, I think I, I like what you said though about, um, the relationship piece. So I, in a, in a big way. This is a relationship based role and, and all, all roles have relationships in them, but this is kind of a unique relationship based role. Yeah.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

My advice if we were going there, like my advice to someone considering a chief of staff role would be to evaluate what those relationships will be like, like all the different dynamics at play. Um, because I think that's a good indicator of what the role will be like, how they will experience the

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

And I think it's like who, who do you want to invest in and who is going to invest in you and what's needed in that, in that exchange or in that relationship just evolves and is dynamic over time. So, I mean, if we're talking someone in their early career, first job out of school. That's a different scenario than, Hey, I've been doing this 30 years. I have so many reps under my belt, and now I'm going to step into a chief of staff role. That's just same, same things, relationships, principal dynamics, investing, but just a different mix. Yeah.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yes, completely.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

that is it, it's always so interesting me to, interesting to me as well, thinking about moments where, um, a principal, I've heard of situations where a principal sort of reaches out to someone that they want to be their chief of staff. Right. Versus someone that's

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

in saying, be like, I wanna be a chief of staff and then meeting the principal from there. Or situations where, um. A chief of staff, a principal reaches out to someone to be their chief of staff. They have a strong relationship, and then there is a change in leadership and a new person comes in and that they're now

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

to that chief of staff. So I always find that interesting too, right? Like you can think about the relationships as you're. Um, as you're about to step into a role, but acknowledging that, especially in chief of staff roles, things change so quickly, and like the evolution of that job description from like, when you first saw it to maybe like six months into the role may be completely different depending on, again, some of these variables like, you know, the stage of the company or principal or leadership team.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Totally. Yeah. And I've seen chiefs of staff who, you know, they, they stick with one principal. If the principal goes, they go. It's kind of a package deal. And then I've known, I've seen several scenarios where. The principal is ousted for whatever reason, or leaves, chief of staff stays. And a big part of their job in conjunction with the board is to successfully onboard the new CEO, the new president or principal. And the chief of staff is instrumental in that'cause they know who's who. They know the processes, they know what happened before and why, what worked and what didn't. And they can get that, that new CEO, let's say, up to speed real quick, uh, very quickly. Um. Yeah. But that, that is interesting. I'm trying to think about if folks are, let's say like, there's so many scenarios, but if someone sucked into a chief of staff role where it's like, Hey, merger happened, reorg happened. They made me a chief of staff. What do I do with this? Like, what would you say to a, a client who was coming to you with, with that scenario?

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yeah. Again, I, I would go back to those relationships. So this is where I think about assessing where you're at with the relationship with your principal. Maybe it's a new principal, their leadership team. The broader organization, the people within that the relationship with themselves. So like, and that relationship to yourself in a scenario like that could be like, what are, what is your internal narrative around this merger? Or, um, what are your beliefs or thoughts about this? Like, are you already coming to conclusions around what this means for you? Or this is gonna be so hard, or, um, right. Like maybe there are already some things that are happening. Inside your brain that are then getting translated into how maybe you're approaching the role or relationships with people. Um, I think this is where there you can sort of, you can start to evaluate what do I want this relationship to be like with this person? Where am I at now? Um, what do I need to do for this to be the most effective relationship for. Everyone involved,

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

to reach our goals here. So those are my thoughts. What are your thoughts?

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

I think like I'm kind of hearing as we're like our main, our main takeaways might be there's this experience lens and relationship lens. So if you are sitting there going, Hmm, like I'm thinking about being a chief of staff, or I've been a chief of staff, but I wanna do it again. Maybe think of it through what is the best experience? For me right now, like gaining certain types of experience and also like the experience of like going through it, right? So like, what am I able to do right now? What's gonna be good for me and what's gonna be good for others?

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Mm-hmm.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

And, and then there's the relationship lens where, okay, what kind of relationships is this? Do I think this is gonna be, if I go this route, what kind of relationships am I gonna create, build, maintain, enhance, all those different things. And kind of using your four part. Relationship piece there, but, and, and if you look at it through those lenses, the the answer will differ for everyone, right? Because I mean, some people will be like, I'm out, then I'm out. I don't like that experience. I don't like those relationships. I'm done being chief of staff. Cool. Some people might go. Woohoo. Like, I'm doing this forever and like different permutations, and then I'm gonna go do this over here and get this industry experience. I wanna work with these types of principles. I wanna support A CEO and then A CTO, and then a president, and then nonprofit, and then for-profit. So I, I'm just, there's no cookie cutter answer like you said before, but I think these two lenses will get you to a good answer.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yes. Yes. Because a lot of what you're saying is making me think just how much is out of the chief of staff's control. Um, but they have to do so much, right? Like there's so much that's out of your control that is also kind of your problem. Um,

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yeah, yeah,

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

or like your responsibility.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

yeah. Well, I think like my answer to is this just a short term role or early stage role? Versus could this be a long-term thing? Is it can be both. I mean, for different people, it's just gonna mean different things in their career, and that's totally fine. There's no, that doesn't make it, you're doing it wrong. Uh, it just makes it, are you being intentional about the role in your career? Or if you've been kind of shoved into it, are you making it the best experience you can with what you have and you're making the best relationships you can while you're there, type of thing.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

exactly. And I think here's the beauty of the fact that this role can look very different and, um, depending on where you are, and the fact that it is emerging all over the place is that I'm very hopeful that if someone is loves the chief of staff work. You can find the right environment that works for you. But a lot of that just takes what that environment needs, like what are your environmental needs around that?

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Yes.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Um, and that's back to the internal stuff, like knowing what you need, knowing what's important to you, knowing how you operate best. I'm hopeful you can find that, that there's, you know, if you have that compass.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

And if you need help finding that, Katie can help you. So Katie, where can people find you?

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

People can find me on LinkedIn, it's probably the best place. Um, and then you'll find all my things from there.

emily-sander_1_10-09-2025_113246:

Beautiful. We'll have that link in the show notes. But Katie, thank you so much for joining. I've, I've enjoyed our discussion and just, just back and forth and, uh, we'll see if this is one of many conversations.

katie-rohn_1_10-09-2025_143245:

Yes. Thank you so much for having me, Emily. This was so much fun.