Leveraging Leadership

Balancing MBA Studies with a Chief of Staff Startup Internship Experience

• Emily Sander • Season 1 • Episode 233

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Conghao Tian shares how he landed a Chief of Staff internship at Zenblen while studying for his MBA at Chicago Booth, starting with a background in music and art history. He talks about building KPI systems for the startup’s robotic smoothie kiosks, managing UChicago interns, and balancing intense work hours alongside full-time school. The episode gives real insight into what a Chief of Staff intern does in a startup and how Conghao is using both his coursework and hands-on experience.


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Who Am I?

If we haven’t yet before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want. 

 

Time Stamps:

01:00 From Arts to Business: Conghao Tian's Background
02:24 The MBA Experience at Chicago Booth
03:29 Landing the Chief of Staff Internship
04:50 Balancing MBA and Internship
09:47 Role and Responsibilities of a Chief of Staff Intern
15:34 Introduction to the Michelin Star Chef
16:53 Balancing School and Work
18:05 Applying Classroom Knowledge in Real Life
20:31 Part-Time Challenges and Solutions
27:46 Internship Management and Advice

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

My guest today is Kian and he is gonna tell us about his internship program as Chief of Staff. So you are going to Chicago Booth for your MBA, and then you are also working at Chief of Staff Internship. So we'll hear all about that, but um, welcome to the show.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Thank you. Thank you.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

So take us back to kind of the very beginning. You went to normal school and then you decided to go for your MBA, and just tell us kind of what you're studying and how you chose the school you're going to and all of that.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, um, hi everyone. currently MBA student at Chicago Booth School of Business. And as Emily introduced, I'm also chief of staffing for a startup called Zum. so kind of going back in time and thinking about why I decided to pursue my MBA, right. So I actually come from more of a artsy plus humanity background. I did music and art history for my undergrad and, and out of, um, out of undergrad, I, I went, uh, I, I, uh, played music professionally for, for, uh. And national level orchestra in China for a couple years. And then I got into product management. So I did product management for an ed tech company. Um, that kind of introduced me to the business world. And, you know, I just got very interested in, in the business, business aspect of things instead of playing music all my life. So, um, you know, at one point in my career I thought, okay, maybe I should consider, um. an MBA as like, you know, many of my friends are doing that back then. So I applied, uh, for a couple programs. I got into Chicago Booth and it was a surprise because I, I filed like a funny anecdote. I, like, I filed my application in like one morning, like, like right before the due date. I filed everything in like three hours. I wrote up all my essays and I had zero hope of getting it. I did. So I don't know, like reflecting back, I probably is like one of their DEI hires because I have like a non-traditional music background. But anyways, I started Chicago Booth. I had no idea kind of what Booth will offer. You know, I, I had a rough idea of the academic curriculum, but I didn't know what career paths existed post MBA. So like I really. Took advantage of the program to really explore on different things. Right? So, you know, as, as many of you are very familiar with MBA programs, a lot of people, um, you know, join MBA to, uh, join a top consulting firm or, or a top investment bank or do like, um, you know, booth is a very strong finance school, so a lot of my peers will go into investment management or hedge fund. so I definitely did explore all of that, but eventually I think, um. I found that I am more of an operator. I'm more interested in, you know, instead of like very, very high level strategy or like very kind of high level investments, you're managing like a portfolio of 2000 companies. I'm more kind of interested in the boots on the ground sort of work and, and making actual impact as, as an operator. So I kind of shopped around a little bit and I found a couple chief of staff roles open out there in, in like startups. And that's kind of how I landed at, um, a summer internship, uh, with Ziland on the chief of staff role,

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Wow, okay. There's so much in the. That. So, um, procrastination sometimes works, it sounds like jamming that at the last minute and sometimes it's like, um, you can't overthink things, you just have to get it done. So maybe that works for you, but Fantastic. Well, congratulations again for, for getting in. And, um, can you tell us a little bit about, is the internship completely separate from your MBA program? Is it somehow connected or is that completely independent?

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Yeah. Um, happy to talk about that. I think that is, uh, it depends. So, you know, for, for a typical MBA program, it's a two year full-time program, and usually the summer in between the two academic years, you're gonna find a summer internship. There are companies that work very closely with Booth. You know, most of the investment banks out there work very closely with Booth and also, you know, MBB, the consulting firms, they, they recruit directly from Booth, um, the Town Pole. Um, but this internship is like I founded kind of independently. Um, you know, this, the startup Ziland is closely tied to Booth, um, because they came out of booth's, um, new Venture challenge back in 2018 or 19. So they have this connection. So I found the startup also through this connection. But I think the, the sort of search process is independent.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Gotcha. Okay. And just to for context, you're into your second year, you're almo, you're going to graduate this year, so that's kind of where you are in that process.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

I am graduating this June. Yes.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Yes. And how long have you been in this internship at Lin?

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Oh yeah. So usually you would just do the summer, right? It's usually like a 10 weeks or 12 weeks, um, internship, but it ended up turning into, uh, sort of a full-time thing. So I interned there for 12 weeks. I really liked the team, and the team really liked me, so I ended up part-time for them this entire academic year. So I've been with them for the past, nine to 10 months. And also I've received a full-time offer from Ziland, so it is very likely that I'll join them full-time as, as chief of staff after I

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Wow. Okay. And just to be clear for everyone, like you're going to school full-time and you're working, what is it, 20 to 30 hours a week on top of that?

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

yes. It,

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Oh my gosh,

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

crazy at times.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

yes. And you have like a family and everything. Oh my goodness. Okay. Um, uh, and for and for context, what does, uh, Zen Blend do?

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Yeah, uh, absolutely. So Zepelin is a seat run startup, and it, it, um, so the founder Tom, is a UChicago grad and. He spent the last five years developing a robotic smoothie kiosk. It is a kiosk that blends smoothies right in front of people. So it's a very interesting story. So Tom, um, comes from a consulting background. So he was a U Chicago grad and he went in straight into consulting and back when he was, um, doing consulting, he used to host like, um, weekly Friday smoothie hours, like smoothie, happy hours for everyone in the office and like people just loved the idea. um, and it gradually turned into a full-time thing. And, and Tom eventually decided to, um, you know, give up his, his consulting career and start his own business and develop a, uh, smoothie kiosk. So, um, you know, Tom, it has an Asian heritage, so, so his. You can imagine they're furious at him, but, you know, you know. But he did, and he, uh, it was very, very, uh, interesting story. He won a lot of like personal checks from his, actually his boss at, at his bank of consulting firm and also a lot of his friends support and family support. So, um, yeah, we're a team of about 10 people now. Um, we're scaling across Chicago land. Um, Um, we have currently four kiosks in the field, and we're probably gonna reach 10 kiosks by the end of, um, this quarter. So it's rapidly growing and um, yeah,

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Wow.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

does.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Like that literally makes me want a smoothie right now. Um, so I remember, um, I remember when I was in college, my friends and I would go to Costco on their sample days and they would always sample that like blender that could like blend metal or whatever and they would give out free smoothies. And I was like, I wish I could get a smoothie anytime I wanted. It kind of sounds like this might be close where you just go to a kiosk and get a smoothie.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of what we were doing. So. You know, in terms of like the value proposition, there are a couple, right? Number one, like we're, we're offering very healthy, um, kind of, um, options. There's no added sugar. A lot of people complaints, like not sweet enough, but like we kind of just hold to our original value of like staying healthy. Um, and also the convenience aspect of it, right? Um, you know, there is a labor shortage in the United States. Um, just think about the bars or, or like the smoothie bars or cafeterias that, you know, and they close at 4:00 PM which is just like. Because there's a shortage of of staffing, right? So, um, for college students as well, like a lot of the college cafeterias, clo closed like relatively early. And also for hospitals, you know, for the nurses who work kind of overnight. Um,

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Oh yeah.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

food options like past 6:00 PM so I think our kiosk offer a really, really good option for them. Actually, if you look at our sales graph, we have like a lot of sales at midnight, um, in college campuses and, and hospitals because we're 24 7, you know, um, it requires a little maintenance probably every three weeks we need to restock the kiosk, but that's pretty much it. You know, it, it's always available and, and it's very healthy.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Okay, gotcha. And just'cause I'm like personally curious, like what is in the smoothie? How do you like, keep it stocked for that long? Is it. Like fruit and

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

right. It is freshly frozen fruit. So,

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Oh, okay.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

you have the kiosk. The kiosk is relatively large. Um, if you've ever seen a farmer's fridge, um,

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Yeah.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

like, uh, the, the fridge that has salads and, and like pastas. Um, we're, we're kind of similar business model. We keep them like freshly frozen. Back in the kiosk and then, um, it kind of vents into the cup. And then the cup, um, is blended right in front of you.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Oh my gosh. Okay. Okay, now I need to go to for this. Um, so funny. Your biggest sales at midnight. It reminds me of that friends episode where Ross is selling, um, girl Scout cookies

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Yeah. I know,

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

the most at the college campus. They're like, it's the cookie dude. That's what it reminds me of.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Right.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Um, excellent. Okay, so now we have, uh, what Zen Blend does. So when you first started it was during summer. Um, can you tell us a little bit about like what does a Chief of Staff intern do?'cause a lot of our listeners. Are very, you know, very familiar with startup chief of staff, um, you know, chief of staff at large multinational companies. But I think internship might be new for a lot of people. So can you just describe your experience at the beginning of your internship?

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I mean the internship is meant to turn into a full-time job. Like, I mean, hopefully, right? Like, um, if you're not like milking free labor, you're hiring an internship hopefully sort of as a trial period, and then it's hopefully converts into a full-time hire. But I can definitely kind of talk a little bit about my experience when I started an internship. So joined Zumba and um, I had like very, very limited understanding of what a chief of staff is, right? So, um, you know, I know it was kind of high up there. I wasn't exactly sure how it's differentiated from an EA role, executive assistant role, and, um, I wasn't exactly sure how is it different from a COO role. So, um, I went into into ZE Blend and the first week was just. Um, just overwhelmed by information, right? So, um, you know, if you're like, say you're a marketing hire, all you need to care about is marketing. If you are an engineering hire, like all you have to care is about engineering. But for a chief of staff hire, I have to basically go through the entire history of the company and learn about every single aspect of the company. Right. So I was kind of overwhelmed by, by kind of the onboarding in day one, uh, which was fine, I think. I think, uh, now I think, I think back on it, I think it was a relatively valuable experience because it really allowed me to kind of get up to speed very quickly. And also a lot of what I did in the first week was just, uh, one-on-ones, you know, at a startup. Um, the teams, the core team's relatively small. So I actually get to talk with every single one on the team. So that's kind of what I did, um, during my first week. And I think I got up to speed like pretty quickly because I, if I remember correctly, our CEO took a leave second week, so he like went to Italy or something. So I started running the company week two.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

He was like, welcome, welcome to Zen. Bye.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

yeah, exactly. So he did that. And then there was a couple people we had like interns or like contract hires, I don't remember onboarding. On the second Monday of, of like me onboarding. So I onboarded those people and I was like,

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Wow.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

now I'm gonna memorize this whole pitch, like onboarding pitch and in this, like this company that I just joined for a week. Um, and I was doing that. So it was like incredible times and I, I

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Wow that there's like drinking from the fire hose and then there's that where it's like your CEO just goes to Italy and you're like, you're in charge of the, you're in charge of the company. That's amazing. So, um. Then after, like maybe within like that first month, what types of projects and initiatives were you working on? Short of like everything was there. Like, okay, this is a priority for us right now. Can you please help take point on this, on this one, um, initiative.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Yeah, absolutely. Let me, uh, kind of think back on it. So,

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Yeah.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

the chief of staff role, like it really depends. Um. company. Right. And depends on the CEO and, and like how the CEO defines this role. I think for me in the beginning it was like apparently everything I have to learn a lot about, um, each department and, and really how this, this company operates. But as soon as I got up to speed, then it, that like came to a point where I really need like specific sort of, um, guidelines or, or not guidelines, probably like priorities on like what I should be focused on. Right. Um, you know, even the best chief of staff, like. I, I envisioned people who got chief of staff roles are like people of many talents. You can probably do a lot of different things. But then what I really did was, okay, I sat down with the CEO and, and kind of thought about like where the company were at the time and what did the company needs the most. Right? Um, you know, and at the time it was data infrastructure, so there needs to be some. Um, who is like monitoring the data, you know, and also analyzing the data, coming up with like KPI systems that define and, and monitor how the sy how how the company does, right? How many smoothies are we selling a day? How many smoothies are we selling per location? Is there a metric that measures customer success? You know, all of these are undefined. It was like, um, it started from the scratch. So I did research on, you know, the industry norms, like how retail industry defines customer. Satisfaction how, you know, different kiosk businesses do, how different like, um, you know, companies define, you know, their success. And I had to come up with this whole KPI system for exem it. So, um, that was kind of my first very big project. And then what else did I do? Um, nothing. Uh,

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

And just, just outta curiosity, did you have a COO at that point? Was there a COO. Okay.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

we did have a COO,

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Okay. And how did you Yeah. Work together with the COO?

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Yeah, it's a, a very good question. So, um, you know, for a lot of, um, software companies, I think the COO role is more like an internal CEO. So like, while the CEO goes out there, talk with partners and, and established fundraising, the COO kind of manages the internal workflow of, of the company. And, um, for example, and that role is actually me because we, our COO is focused on other things like our COO. Has to make sure that our smoothies are fresh. Like he has to make sure that,

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Whoa.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

the smoothies are delivered on time into the kiosk and all the kiosk are way well maintained and, and serviced. So that's a totally different role. Right. And he's also in charge of like the, the, you know, the developing new flavors. He's actually, uh,

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Oh

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

like twice, um, Michelin star chef or something. Like he's, he's, he's really

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

wow. Okay.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

So like that's his sort of realm. And I kind of. into the organization. I looked at the org chart I looked at, I attended all the meetings in week one, and then I just mapped them out for the CEO in week two. And I said, look, um, these people are looking for, you know, um, more guidance, right? These people are like reporting to multiple, uh, people. And I think the org chart has something, has some issue here. And I was also like realizing that, okay, this meeting is happening too frequent. While that meeting is probably not enough, like people. You know, like changing all of these things like might look like just organizational adjustments, you know, that's like, I think COO role for like many software companies. But for example, that was really, uh, me.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

That's so interesting. Like the COO is in charge of like delivery, and in this case it is like how fresh is our product literally and all. And the fact that he's a chef, so he kind of takes that angle to actually producing. Okay. Interesting. And then were you working full-time during that summer or was it kind of part-time? What, what did that look like?

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

time, so that was

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Okay.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

um, yeah.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Then at the end of the summer, um, you went back, you went back to school and then tried to do this like part-time thing. How in the world, how in the world are you doing this? You're going to graduate school and you're doing like, I mean, it's, it is technically under 40 hours, but it still sounds like quite a, quite a, um, investment of your time and energy. So how, what is your approach to balancing all these things?

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Yeah, it's quite a bit of a, um, you know, a commitment for sure. Um, so the reason why I'm doing this is number one, simple needs help. I think I, it is a really promising company, you know, um, it's seat round. We're, we're raising for series A this summer. And I've been seeing that they're, they're great product and all this momentum that I helped build over the summer, and I didn't wanna just drop there. So I, I wanted to keep helping the company. Um, that's like reason number one. Reason number two is, you know, um, during my first year of MBA, like Booth is an amazing program. We have like a lot of Nobel Prize winning professors and they're really good, um, doing research and stuff. But, you know, it's like you, you spend 20 hours doing your final project. And, and it's just on paper. You know, it doesn't get turned into any actual real, you know, real impact in the world. So I just wanted to keep doing something that's like real, that's like driving change, driving impact in the real world. So that's kind of also part of my motivation, why I kept doing this chief of staff role and also, you know, this learning while applying that in real life is also a great experience, right? I'm taking classes on how to design a good kind of managerial. Um, organizational structure or kind of how to, um, effectively communicate or how to, um, design good compensation packages and stuff like that, um, at school, but at the same time, like, I'm applying that right away in, in Ziland, you know? So I think, I think that's a very, like, that's like a learning experience plus, you know what I mean? Um, uh. Getting to kind of, um, apply that in real time terms of like how I manage my time, like just, just, you know, fingers crossed, like just do my best. You know, I kind of commit two full days in the office with Ziland and the other times like I'm remotely available. So there's a lot of working at night. Um, there's a lot of working on weekends, but, um, I've been handling that. Yeah.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Yeah. I love that you highlighted the, you're taking classes and then you're to, to apply that in real life situations. I've, I've spoken with many first of staff. I wish I had paid attention to my classes more because now I can actually apply this. So you're kind of doing it in parallel path, which I think even solidifies it more in, uh, in your brain and in your learning. So I think that's fantastic. Um, and you mentioned kind of the two days in the office and then working remotely. How does that, how does that kind of cadence and um, like little bit of reduced hours from full-time? Dictate what types of projects you work on, kind of how you interact with the rest of the team. Um, does that just go pretty smoothly or is that kind of a thought out process that you've come up with?

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Yeah, absolutely. There's, it's definitely thought out and plan out. So I think it actually helped me to focus more, right

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Hmm.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

full-time, like, you know, I had priorities in mind. You know, the KPI. Monitoring, like the meeting cadences for, we're closing up our seed round. So it was helping with that. And then we were kind of looking for contract manufacturers then. So I was helping the engineering team. I had like a, some rough outline of like, priorities in mind, but I think now that I think back on my full-time summer internship, I wasn't really, really like focused, right? Like, um, for all the other department leads. They, they're laser focused on their priorities within the department. But for me, I was like kind of, uh, you know, I was doing it all. Um, so I think the part when I shifted to part-time, we really had to sit down. Every month or every quarter to think about, okay, what are the top two priorities that I need to be focused on? And I, um, I decided, well, well, we decided for me the priorities are go to market. So we, we have a really good product, but we have to sell them to different location partners and, and successfully kind of, kind of map out this, this, um, growth roadmap, right? So that was my priority number one. And my priority number two is, is the KPI monitoring and data analysis. So that's pretty much all I did for, for a while. You know, I was like, laser focused on these two. And of course there's like, um, drawbacks, you know, as a chief of staff, I think one of the biggest value add that chief of staff can have to the companies is the, the kind of. The width of the knowledge that the chief staff have. So like, um, when I was full-time, I used to know what everybody's doing on the team, like what each department's priorities are on every single day and every single week. And I made sure that cross departmental projects got handled very, very smoothly. I made sure that there was zero communication issues that was like what I was trying to do, but when I shifted to, um. Part-time, like that function of the chief of staff is kind of limited because I'm only going to the office two days a week. So at times I need to be filled in on, on certain projects. Um, so I think that is a little bit of, um, that like how things changed once I've kinda shifted to the part-time status. But I think, um, as soon as I joined back as full-time after I graduate, I think that's, that's resolved. So,

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Yeah. And obviously they know you're in school and are they, I mean, it sounds like they're pretty flexible and they're well aware of, of kind of what you have, uh, going on outside of work. Um, so that just is kind of a communication, Hey, I'm going back to school at X date and therefore I'll be kind of doing these, these different things with my schedule and so forth.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. They're, they're really nice people. They're, um, they're flexible and you know, they also. Because I'm at Chicago Booth, there's like a vast network that I can tap into currently

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Yeah.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

like, that'll be kind of limited after I graduate because now I'm like, I am in the building. I'm talking with all my friends and all the professors. So like I'm trying to also, know, even when I'm at school, I'm trying to help like Zi and do the network and, and build a connection. So I think

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Yeah.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

out kind of nicely.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Just outta curiosity, do you ever take, like you mentioned, um, you learn things in class and then you apply them to what you're doing at Zein. Do you ever take what's happening at Zein, like take it to a class like project or a group discussion or anything like that?

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Oh yeah, absolutely. It's like

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

No.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

like a, know, a mutual process. I think. Uh, definitely did that. Um, let me think. So. In my first year of, of school, I like, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do after I graduated. So like I took a bunch of like different classes in, in finance, in strategy, in product development, like, just, just everything you can imagine in a business school. Um, but I think in my second year I'm like a lot more focused because I know after I did this chief of staff internship, I know that startup ops is something that I'm interested in doing in the long term. I really want to be, be a very good operator. So I started taking class that's relevant to it. Um, so I took a lot of like classes on like management. I took a lot of classes on, you know, entrepreneurship and, um, you know, because Ziland and Venture Capital back. So I took a lot of classes on kind of, sort of the vc, um, ecosystem as well. And I often brought up Ziland as a case, um, when we, um, sort of doing group discussions in class. Yeah.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

On the VC point, are you involved with kind of the, the capital investors at all, or is that more so the CEO or CFO, or are you in that mix as well?

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Yeah, I'm kind of in that mix, um, because I, uh, go to Chicago Booth, so I have a network that, that Ziland can tap into as well. But I think, uh, mostly is is the CEO at at this point? I mean, the ideal sort of, um, of division of labor would be after I graduate. Like he can just. Be out there and do, do the fundraise and talk with

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Yeah.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

partners, like, you know, apparently like to do fundraise, you gotta go to this and that event, like, it's like flying all over the country. And, um, hopefully I can just, um, you know, take more control of like, internally and, and, and just run, run the company the day to day.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Yeah.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

but you know, personally, like I, I enjoy pitching as well, so, um, um, I usually when I can I join the calls for, for the VC pitching. Is,

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Wow, that's such good experience. Yes. And then just outta curiosity, are there other interns at Zen And then if so, are there other interns from Booth specifically?

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

oh, yeah, absolutely. There are a lot of interns. Um, know, because this, uh, Ziland has this connection with University of Chicago and Blue School of Business, uh, we hire a lot of undergrad interns, um,

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Okay.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

regularly. Um, we have marketing interns, we have product success interns. We have like engineering interns. The thing about interns is that, um, you have to kind of educate them for a while, but, um, you know, they don't stay long, but still in, you know, like U Chicago undergrad, there are like really, really bright people. I. So, um, they can get up to speed quickly and like a lot of the times they can arrive at solutions that you've like never thought about before. So, um, yeah, that's been working out well. I'm actually currently managing a team of four UChicago interns, sort

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Oh wow. Okay.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

semester interns. So they're also part-time, um, kind of helping out, um, on like, um, like customer success and some data analysis. So, um, yeah, there's a lot of interns. Um. Chicago Booth intern. I'm not exactly sure. Yeah, we had one. We had one. Um, I think we had another chief of staff, probably the summer before I joined. And, and she's also a, a Chicago booth? Yeah.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Okay, so there, so there were previous chiefs of staff, like intern. Uh, okay. So that's kind of an open, is that, what was that? A rotational role? Kind of an open internship on rotation role for Zen Blend.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Yeah. I, I, I don't think it was, I think the, the CEO really tried to hire full-time chief of staff, right? Like, I think

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Okay.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

type of CEO who can really empower the chief of staff and.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Hmm.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

out of the role. Right. I think that like the difference between a good chief of staff role and a bad chief of staff role is like the good chief of staff is really empowered. You are kind of in

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Yes.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

position loop and you're, you're like really helping the company. Uh, whereas, you know, a, a not so valuable chief of staff would be like the, the executive. Executive assistant, right? Like you can hire a EA for a much less pay. So why are you paying for a chief of staff and, and like with, with a great, you know, educational background, um, to do that work, right? So I think our CEO does a really, really good job kind of, uh, leveraging this chief of staff roles. So I, um, he's always kind of on the lookout for, for a great full-time chief of staff. So I think, I think that's why he kind of opened up the internship a couple times to recruit the right talent. But, um, I am. Because I wasn't there, so I wasn't sure why it didn't work out. Um, but um, yeah, so I think he has the intention to hire full-time chief staff.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Okay. Interesting. Yeah. So you kind of described how he, um, uses the internship role for Chief of Staff and it's almost like kind of a, a trial run and then hopefully he's with the intention of finding someone to bring on full-time. And you had mentioned you are leading a team of four interns, I think you said, on a semester basis. So I'm wondering, like, do you have any advice for. How to, how to bring on and utilize interns for a very set amount of time, a short set amount of time.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um. I think number one, you definitely gotta hire the right talent. So by the right talent, I mean they have to have the right skillset, but at the same time they have to be like very excited about what they're doing. I think that's like the key differentiator. I think my, this current semester, the four interns that I'm managing are really, really productive. Because they are so interested in Ziland as an idea. Um, you know, we have a kiosk on UChicago campus and they're using it like every single day. Like they really love this idea and like, they flex that to their friends. You know, like all of their friends. They're like, Hey, I'm like interning for Ziland. It's like, really cool idea. And, and like, they're, they're very excited and, and very energetic and I think that's like. A such a key differentiator. And also of course, the skillset that they have, right? Are they really kind of contributing to, to this role or like, you know, think about it. It's like a say, it's like a 12 weeks internship program. you spend the first six weeks educating them, then your ROI is probably very, very low. So.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Mm.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

hire someone who can get up to speed like relatively quickly probably in the, in the first week or so week or like first, maybe two weeks or so, and then for the rest of the time they can kind of really contribute to the team. I think

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Yeah.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

of my take on it.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

And in this particular case, they're like your target audience in some respects too. So it's like if they're in marketing, like what, what would make you wanna try a Zen blend smoothie. Um, very, very cool. Um, okay, as we wrap up here, any kind of future thoughts for, for Zen Blend, for Booth, for just yourself and your trajectory? Anything else you would want people to, to be aware of?

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Yeah, absolutely. I think the chief of staff role is such an incredible platform to learn and grow if you really want to get into management in the future, you know, a lot of my, uh, MBA peers, they're either looking at investment roles or, or like consulting. Roles or like higher level strategic roles? Um, you know, I feel like, um, probably less people are interested in operator roles, but like, it's such fun, you know, if you see like your hard work turn into kind of real impact in the world, I think it, it is great fun. So I personally think that operator is, is a great role if you are kind of down to like, you know, really get your hands dirty and, and like boots on the ground type of work. I think, I think, um, it's a. I think the chief of staff role is such a good kind of platform for you to get up to speed and, and learn how to be a good leader. Learn how, because you are working with the management team all the time and, um, you're involved in the decision kind of making process all the time and you really see how your ideas get translated into action in real time. You gotta see it fail. You gotta see it. Seat and, and you get that feedback in real time. And that's like really, really kind of valuable learning experience for me. And you know, I apparently I want to be a management, sort of in the management office in the future. I think this is, this has been such a kind of incredible learning experience for me. So I would, uh, advise, yeah, anybody who wants to do that, um, to look for a chief of staff role.

emily-sander_1_03-07-2025_083728:

Yeah. Well thank you for that, for that words of wisdom. And it sounds like you've taken this internship opportunity and just made the most of it and, you know, it's a win, win win for all parties involved. So that's, that's the best, uh, that's the best way to go. But thank you for sharing that. Again, this is the first, um, chief of staff intern we have on the show. And, uh, I've, I've learned a lot in this episode, just me personally. So thank you very much again for your time and for sharing your story.

conghao_1_03-07-2025_103728:

Thank you. My pleasure.