Leveraging Leadership

The Power of Purposeful Success: Insights for Business Leaders

• Jessa Estenzo • Season 1 • Episode 245

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Emily Sander talks with John Knowlton about what real success means, why it's an ongoing process, and how to use your natural talents at work. They share practical ideas for Chiefs of Staff, like focusing on tasks that give you energy, trimming your to-do list, and using clear company values to make decisions. John Knowlton also shares advice on morning routines and his book "Thinking for Success."


Links Mentioned:

John Knowlton’s Book: Thinking for Success

John Knowlton’s Website


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Who Am I?

If we haven’t met before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want.

 

Time Stamps:

01:39 Defining Success: Personal Insights

04:38 Purpose and Talents: A Deeper Dive

06:28 Refining Talents into Skills

15:26 Values and Decision Making

18:40 Team Collaboration and Problem Solving

19:33 Aligning Personal and Company Values

20:26 Interviewing Tips for Career Transitions

23:50 Operationalizing Values in Organizations

26:21 Morning Routines for Success

31:17 The Power of Being Outdoors

34:02 Introducing John's New Book

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

My guest today is John Nolton. John, it's, I am very happy to have you on. How are you doing today?

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Uh, I'm doing great. Today is a great day.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Beautiful. I was looking forward to this conversation, so thank you so much again for taking the time and you're gonna talk to us today about success and all of its various, various definitions. Um, but first, can you give people just a quick background backdrop on who you are and where you're coming at, things from.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Well, sure. Thank you, Emily. I'm a dad. I'm a husband. I've got four kids. I've been bi-vocational my whole career, so I've been a part-time pastor and a full-time business guy. I guess if you want to know about success, you know, in sort of in the traditional sense of the term, I, I co-founded a, a wealth management firm that got to over a billion dollars of client assets. Sold that at the end of 2020, a year sabbatical. And since 2021, I've been, uh, doing something called C 12 where I coach and lead, uh, Christian CEOs and their, their number twos, uh, through business forums. Um, monthly business retreat for, for the two separate groups, and then I do coaching as well.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Beautiful. And I think success can be talked about at an individual level, like what does success mean for me? And then certainly for a team and for a company and, you can expand out from there. But in terms of individual success, How would you, um, approach defining success?

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Well, uh, I know that people are impressed with our success, but they're impacted by our failures. So I'll start with the way that I used to erroneously think about success, I was

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

I.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

I would occasionally buy a SAIL magazine that's a, a magazine about sailing boats, right? And I had my eye on this. 42 foot hunter sailboat that I just thought was the thing, man. And if I could ever afford a hunter 42, would have made it, I would be successful. Well, I, I could afford one now. I haven't bought one, but that's pretty simple, simplistic, almost childish vision of success. And, I've refined through, through the fire, I guess over time. To have come to this understanding of success, which is that success is a process of getting closer to the purpose for which you were created. And so you might remember from like high school geometry, this idea of an asso tote, is aligned that approaches, but never reaches another line. Some definitions of success are like you, you've finished or you accomplish the goal, or, you know, achieve a particular mark or something like that. But if you really think about it, we really should always be trying to get better day that we're alive. My, one of my mottos is thinking better every day, and so. I wanna be a great husband. And it's not like I'll wake up one day and realize, well, a success, I'm gonna stop trying now. Uh, I don't think that would fly. And so I need to try every day to get better. And that process, engaging in that process is what I think of as success.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Yeah, there's so many things to pull out there. I mean, um, I heard a quote once that I'm not even gonna try to get it right, but it was. It's, it's the reaching for something great and almost and beyond yourself, where you know you're not gonna get there. But the reaching itself is what makes you the type of person that you wanna be. And I, I've been through a, a similar process where, you know, success was very linear and there was a financial component to it. It was like, what can I purchase with my success? And all of those things. And now it's leaning more toward, um, am I doing the things that. Uh, is, is making me the person that I wanna be for the purpose of serving others.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

We could just go back, uh, millennia to some of the foundational, um, stories about the origins of humankind. Uh, the book of Genesis has a couple versions of it, and, and in one, God created humanity to have dominion or rulership or authority over the earth. And another he put people in the garden to tend it and keep it, in other words, to, to maintain it and to. To steward it. from, from that, those ideas, we can have this sort of general idea that people have a purpose, which is to care for, to ex to exercise good rulership or, or, um, authority over things. So the created world. You see this where people have pets. I, there's a dog sitting on the couch over there, uh, just listening to you and me talk and, and why do I have a dog in my house? He, he has, know, he just eats and makes messes and stuff like that. Well, people have this innate desire to care for. Creatures. My wife has all kinds of, uh, plants in the house. We want to care for plants, people volunteer and they get engaged in, um, social organizations. They have a, a desire to care for and to tend and steward organizations and other people. We do the same thing in our work. In that case, we get paid for it. That's a double bonus, right? everyone. Has some purpose that's, that sort of fits under, I think that general purpose of stewardship and caring, and then it's our job to figure out where do our particular talents and gifts and, and calling align with that general purpose for humanity. I.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

And I've always thought about talent as like the raw material, like you're just born, you're given. Certain talents when you're born and like, you don't choose that, you don't earn that, you're just, you're just giving it. Some people are very athletic, some people are very musical, some people are, you know, all these different things. Uh, and then I think what I've seen is there's a choice in, do you, do you forge that talent into skill? That's a choice.'cause you can take the raw talent and just leave it there. Or you can forge it kind of like a blacksmith, forges something into some, uh, a refined skill. Uh, so like, I'm trying to think. You might be, um. Born with like steady hands. And so maybe you can like, make cabinets really well. Like, but you don't come out of the womb making cabinets really well. You have to learn that skill. Um, I think that's one choice. And then another choice point, I think is how you use that. So if you're born with steady hands, you could be a cabinet maker, you could be, um, a great piano player or you could be a hitman. Both require steady hands and both require forging that into skill. So I think there's some choices along the way. I mean, I'm just wondering, toss that out. What do you, what do you think?

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Oh, for sure. And well, let's try to bring it, I'll try to bring it to, you know, a point for this audience. Chiefs of staff or, or Chief operating Officers, what have you. There's an ability to talk to people or to be organized, and then we've got this opportunity, like, how do we run a meeting? Do, do the people know why they're in the meeting? And am I using my, the skills that I, or the, excuse me, the talents that I've got, whether it's organizational or uh, interpersonal, what have you. Refining those and practicing and thinking about how did that meeting go? How do I want it to go executing, reviewing, how did it go? Maybe even surveying people, Hey, give this meeting a one to 10 rating. Um, and that's a process of refining. I like that term a lot of refining our, taking our talent, refining it through the process of skill building and getting better at it.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Yeah, and I think, you know, leadership is, is a skill. Some people think, you know, you're bored a leader or you're not. It's like, eh, I think there's elements that are certainly God given, and I think there's elements that you can absolutely learn and you can absolutely get better at, um, and, uh, and watch people and learn from people and try it and try it yourself and make it all your own. Um, and I'm wondering too what your thoughts are on. Uh, there's a process of identifying your talents and then asking like, why am I good at that

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Hmm.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

and what can I do? Like, why, like, why am I good at organization? Why am I good at leadership? And some other people just aren't prone to that aren't inclined to that. Like, why am I what, what's the purpose of that?

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Yeah, well those are observing those skills or talents or innate abilities, observing them about ourselves is key to discovering our purpose. I don't know if you remember the 1992 vice presidential debate. Is that, uh, is that right at the

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

I was around for it, but I can't.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Yeah, well, it was unique for a couple reasons. One is there were three candidates,

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Ah, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Ross Perot was running for

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Mm-hmm.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

and he had a, a vice presidential candidate named Admiral James Stockdale. And this, this debate was notable not only for the three people, but also Stockdale's introduction. So, you know, they, there are three guys, they come to the podium and Stockdale's hearing aids were turned off. And so he couldn't hear at first. He couldn't hear the, the moderators ask him to introduce himself, so that was awkward. He had to get his hearing aids on. What now? Okay. What did you say? And then his opening statement was, who am I? And why am I here? And after the hearing aid incident, it appeared that maybe he wasn't sure. About who he was and why he was there. Yeah, he

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

That's not what you.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

he was actually trying to use that as a, an opening statement to a rhetorical tool to introduce himself because he wasn't well known as a politician. He'd been an admiral. He was actually a great admiral. He was in the Hanoi Hilton during the Vietnam War where.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

You wrote a book, I think. Yeah.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

did. Yeah. Great book. And, um, John McCain was in that same prison

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Yes, yes.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

of war, US prisoners of war. And he, he kept his men alive throughout that long season of imprisonment. he was great leader, but nobody knew who he was. He asked that key question, who am I? And why am I here? And that is a question for every single person. think about who am I? And, and that's a big question that could say, well, I am a person with these, uh, talents, these innate traits and characteristics, and why am I here? The why am I here is related to the who I, who am I?

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Yeah, so let's break that down. So if someone's sitting there going, okay, I'm like kind of picking up what you guys are laying down, but for me, like how do I actually do this? So, you know, I can, most people listening to this are pretty, pretty self-aware and pretty savvy. They can probably say. Like, I'm good at this, this, and this. I've always been good at this, this, and this. It comes naturally to me. I'm the go-to person in my friend group, in my work group for this, this, and this. Okay. Now what?

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Hmm. Well you had, you had talked about developing those talents or. Traits into skills. so as we progress in our careers, I think we can all realize we could be good at lots of things, but not everything. We shouldn't do everything. A couple

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Yes.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

One, not everything gives us energy. And so to me that's a real big clue if, if I've got. Some task on the calendar or the to-do list that I just can't stand or I, it keeps moving down and, uh, oh, I'm, uh, procrastinating. I think I need to check, uh, Twitter before I do this task. You know, that's a clue that whatever that type thing is, is not for you you. Doing that poorly or or avoiding it, actually hurting the organization and or your career, and you're keeping it away from someone for whom that is really in their purpose. even though you might be good at it, if it's not giving you energy, if it's not giving you life, then it's probably not part of your purpose, and you should find the person for whom it is their purpose and give it to

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Okay, so we've got, I've identified what I'm good at. I have like raw talent in these areas. Um, this, these ones give me energy. Like I'm like, I look forward to them. I lose time doing them, all of those things. Um, and I. Then, uh, what would be, I guess we're gonna forge those into skill, so refine those into skill, like put habits around to get really good at them to, um, develop them into your full potential right now. And then that's an ongoing process, right? Always keep working on getting better and better and learning, and learning

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

And seeking

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

and

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

getting

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

feedback. Yes. That's part of, part of forging the skill for sure. Okay. And then, uh, and then are we successful and then have we, what do we do? What do we do from there?

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Ah, wow. You are driving home on this thing? Yeah, so it is the continuous progress I consider to be success, so there

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Okay,

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

be a point of arrival.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

that's the ASSO tote.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

That's the Asim tote. Yep. To

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Okay.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

get, and actually it may be as we, as we advance in career and uh, is trimming out the things more and more to be,

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Okay.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

to focus your time more and more on the things that you're, you're really good at.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

I like that. Trimming, trimming out. So I think there's, um. Focus, clarity comes to mind, the word clarity. So if you're clear, we can talk about values maybe here.'cause that's helpful too. If you're clear on, on values and what you're about and what you're trying to get to, then decisions become easier. And so I think a lot of people are just so like, yep, everything flying at them a million miles a minute, right? And it's like, I could do these 47 things and all of seem urgent to people and it's cutting through that noise and really saying, okay, um, what should I be focusing on? Quote, unquote, aligned with my values is kind of a buzzword, but it is important and we maybe can talk about that. Um, how do we make decisions easier or choices where it's like, Hey, I have these 47 things, but it's clear to me that these 1, 2, 3 are the ones that I should be doing. I.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Yeah, you mentioned values and I, I think it's critical for organizations and individuals to. be clear on their values. so a good a, a well-defined values can be, can arbitrate for you so they can help you say yes to this, no to that. So in addition to your purpose. So this is another screen, if you will, on of the 47 things, what should I be working on? so. Values, uh, help you be clarity in your values, help you know what to say yes to and what to say no to. In addition, I really like people to have not just a, a noun, not just a, a trustworthy or something like that, but also a verbal sentence that follows it. In other words, an action sentence. I have one of our top value is trustworthiness, and that means. We say what we believe, even if it's gonna hurt us, or something like that. Safety first. And that means that we're going to delay a project or not start until everything is safe, the case. So a ver uh, a statement of the value and then an action statement that follows it.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

What does that actually mean? Or what does it look like in the world when you, when you, uh, deploy that value?

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

For sure. Yeah.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

interesting. And, and you were kind enough to send me an advanced copy of your book, and I remember you talked about this example where if a company has, uh, I think it was a commercial cleaning company and it was, um, everyone is important. We're committed to getting the job done. So like those are two of our values. And then sometimes there has to be like a tiebreaker. And you outline this example of like if someone gets sick, like everyone's important, we wanna take care of that sick person, but then we gotta still get the job done. So talk a little bit about when you get to that, that juncture of like, oh, two of our values are kind of clunking up against each other.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, I learned this from the WD 40 company have your, your values ranked hierarchically. In other words, here's our four core values, but I. care about people is more important than getting the job done or vice. I mean, a company could say getting the job done. That's what, that's our deal. And so if Susie's sick, she might need to work when she's sick, or, know, that could be a company's choice. Or if getting the job done is, is the number one value, then you know, Bob doesn't get to go on vacation until the job is done because Suzy's sick. What? So you can see how they, uh, a set of hierarchical values helps you know what to do. And if you can permeate them and percolate them all the way through an organization, they really drive everybody's decision making. I.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

And another thing I have heard you talk about is. Having a conversation around those scenarios where you include the team and that say, Hey, like, Susie's sick, we wanna take care of Susie. And we also know that she was, she's, you know, the, the account manager or whatever on this big account and they have this thing this week. Um. Here's a situation. Can the team rally and find a solution to this? Oh, okay. Actually I can jump in. Or, you know, Hey, if you guys take this work for me, I can do this piece of it. Hey, you know, Helen, can you tag team this with me and can we just get this done until Susie comes back? I think there's, uh, like that's a healthy team and organization to be able to do that, but that's, that's an ideal mode, right.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Oh, it, it is. And, and the, the idea that you had there with, you have a team conversation in which the values are included. That's so critical. They're not gonna be useful if they're not used

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Yeah.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

you,

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Yeah.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

it's, uh, it's like a muscle if you never work out. be able to, you know, pick up the heavy chest that fell on your toe'cause you, you're not used to working out. So you need like, values are like exercise. They need to be used on a regular basis.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Yeah. And I think, you know, when I'm talking to, to coaching clients, uh, and they're, and they're usually in like some sort of career transition. I think there's an exercise of getting clear on your personal, like individual. Um, values and like, what, how would you, how would you define success?'cause that has so many different meanings for so many different people. And we've kind of gone through that exercise and then that helps inform, okay, what type of team do I wanna be in? Because a team has a set of values, right, as a group value, and a company, if it's a multinational company, they have a set of values. And so do those things align? Because a lot of people get into tricky situations where like, you know, my personal values are here and like, ooh, like the. Company values are really, are really bending or pushing that to, to a degree that's not gonna be healthy for me.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

You know, Emily, as, as you talk to people who are in that career transition, I'm just, may I ask you a question?

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Of course.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

How, how do you advise them to interview the company?

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Yeah, that's a good, that's a good one. Uh, first of all, interviewing is two way street. So like people under please understand that, um, you are evaluating the company just as much as they're evaluating you. And there, there comes a point, maybe not in the like very first part of the conversation, but there should come a point where you're able to ask them questions and you're able to get a sense of the projects that people work on. I always say, ask them, you know. What, what's your favorite part about working here, or what are some of the challenges that you think someone would face? Um, sometimes reminding people of your background, so, hey, I'm coming from, you know, smaller to medium sized businesses where we move fast and we're able to do this, this, and this. I've really enjoyed these aspects of this. This is a larger company, like this is, this is a larger company, different environment, like what types of things? Which you see as adjustments and just try to get like, oh, actually you, you know, let me tell you about this. Or, um, if you have a specific scenario that you wanna be clear on, pose that as a, Hey, I've run into this scenario where I've gotten this type of feedback from my boss. Like, Hey, you're in the ER and you're about to die, but our value is like, get the job done. And so I just wanna, I just wanna kind of talk through like kind of what is your, what is your philosophy on that type of thing? So ask those types of questions that are important to you.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

When I am advising who are in the hiring role, they're, they're hiring, advise them to do sneak sneaky, that's the wrong word. Um, un around the bush kind of, um, uh, reference checks. So in other words, not just the people listed as references, but. Find a contact at that at the previous employer or two employers ago, find'em on LinkedIn or whatever and just see if they'll talk to you. I don't know. How would that work for people looking for the next job? Could they just message somebody? Uh,

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Absolutely. I mean, they could, yeah, if you can get someone who's willing to talk to you about stuff, I think that's, uh, if you, if someone wants to talk to you, that's fair game.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

yeah.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

I think there's lots of reviews out there, which can be kind of tricky. Like Glassdoor type reviews'cause people on either side of stream.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

that

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Yeah. Yeah.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

opinions, right?

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Yeah, yeah, they're, they're like really happy and thrilled and possibly incentivized to leave a review positively, or they're like so pissed that, you know, they've left a horrible, like, one star type of thing. Um, but I think that, uh, if you are setting up a interview panel for someone, put a whole bunch of people on the, on the panel, um, or have people talk to. Four or five folks from across your organization just so they can get a feel. I mean, you can get a lot out of speaking with someone, even if it's just, you know, 30 minutes people are busy. But just getting a feeling of like, these are the type of people who work here and this is kind of how they show up and this is, um, what kind of questions they ask and this is how they answer my questions. And those data points are really valuable. So giving them exposure to as much as you can. I would always, when I was hiring someone, I would. Walk them through some of the areas of the office just so they could get like a vibe of like, okay, here's this team, here's the call center, here's our, you know, back office team. Um, nothing proprietary or sensitive was in those rooms, but just so they could get a sense of what it would be like in the office. So I think all of that, um, is fair game.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Yeah. Yeah. And ideally values will drive culture, but culture in reality is what we tolerate or celebrate.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Ah, yes. Yes.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

And

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Gotcha.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

you wanna be kind of hearing, listening for those tolerate and celebrate.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Yeah.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

could come up in any kind of, you could talk, be talking about a project, but you can, you can hear those like echoes of, of what's tolerated and what's celebrated.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

And that makes me wanna go back to something you said earlier, which was around action, and I think it was the, you said like a noun to a verb, but basically what action. Uh, describe what action that value turns into.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Yeah.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

So like, you have a value, and like, when, when that's done, here's the action that you will see, or here's the result that you, you will see. And so when you talk about culture, you're like, okay, here's, here's like our values in action. Like, you can see this happening over on this team, or you can see that on this email thread. So I'm wondering, um, a lot of chiefs of staff are like, I'm in charge of designing culture. We've kind of gone through that practice as a leadership team of like, here's our values. How do I, how do I put those into action? How do I operationalize those values throughout the organization? How do I know if it's working?

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Well, I, you know, I think it, that would be a great conversation around a leadership team. Um, staff meetings, something like that. and a couple of ways you can do this is to intentionally celebrate, you know, catching people

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

I.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

it right. Um, know, Ralph, I, I loved how, how packaging department did whatever it was, you know, just an example from that, that illuminates one of our core values. And if you, if you can. You don't wanna start with, uh, you know, bad examples. Start with the good ones and celebrate them. And that's a really great way to, to start to see them coming to life and exercise the values muscle, by, by catching people doing it right.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Yeah, I like that. Like catching people doing it, right?'cause oftentimes it's catching people doing it wrong, but you wanna highlight, you know, oh my gosh, like Raul, uh, we're talking about taking care of the customer. Like, look what he did here for customer A, B, and C. Like this was. This was amazing.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Right.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

and I always like to say, this is why it's important. This is like why it made an impact on the customer and drove our values forward.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Yeah.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

let, let me switch gears here just for a second. So, uh, morning routines, uh, or habits, uh, this is a big topic, but I think this goes to success and purpose and becoming the people we want to serve others around us. So, I'm just curious, what are your general thoughts on, you know, a, a, a morning routine or. Some habits throughout the day that keep you on track'cause it's so easy to get distracted and pulled off course.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Great question and, and something that I've been refining, uh, my whole adult life, but I, I'll just say this, we've got it. We've got a really easy access to lots of bad information in our phones and, and I

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Yes.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

people to think about how do the first five minutes of your day go? You wake up and then what do you look at a newsfeed or email or whatever? you're in the bathroom, um, I know people do what, how are you starting the day? Because remember, when you start on a, an airplane, if it starts going north, it's gonna be real hard to, to get it south or, or whatever the case. Let's start the day the way that we want it to go. And so I encourage people to have a start their day with some peacefulness, with some quiet it. you're a a person who's religious, I really encourage you to lean into the spiritual exercises of your tradition. Um, I personally like to start with a gratitude prayer of gratitude. Uh, I read scripture. This is stuff that's 2000 to 4,000 years old. It's ancient wisdom that has stood the test of time rather than. The latest thing that a politician or a celebrity did or said, the rage bait. That's what my son calls it. You know, you, you know, this person's a knucklehead and you wanna see what they said and did so that you can get fired up. And that's just not how, I just don't think that's a successful way to start the day. That's not, is that moving you towards your purpose to react to other people's foolishness? So start the day the way you want it to go. How, what kind of person do you want to be today? Let's center our minds on that. Start with some gratitude, some, some wisdom and some peace. then you've gotta, then you're connected to yourself, to your, your spiritual tradition. And you can show up as a really positive influence in whatever craziness is gonna come at you through the day. But don't start your day getting wound up like that.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

And I agree with everything you said, and I think it's also like, do you wanna be in control or do you wanna be controlled? Because when you open that phone up and like, unless your value is like, I wanna get really rageful at things that I can't control, like right away.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Wow, what a goal.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Um. I know then, then you're essentially like saying, here, I'm giving away my power to someone else about how I'm gonna feel.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Yeah.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

That's, that's dangerous. That's tricky. You gotta be careful with that. That's a very slippery slope very quickly. Whereas the other alternative you offered is, Hey, I'm in control. I define what I'm about. Here's who I am. I'm gonna center and like ground myself. Like kind of I'm thinking like putting your feet on the ground. And like my vi the visual you got when I when you were talking was like roots from your feet, like into the ground, like into the earth and just like grounding you.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Yeah.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

and that's, that's far more powerful in my like, okay, I know who I am, what I'm about, and then it's not, oh, I have to co go and, you know. Take on and absorb what the day is gonna throw at me. It's like the day has to deal with me. Now

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Yeah.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

I know who I am, I know what I'm about. Here we go.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Yeah. Who

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

And it's just such a different, yeah. Yes. Yes. And if you have those answers where it's like, okay, let me kind of absorb that and read that I think is so powerful. And, um, I really appreciate the fact that you said. You've worked on your morning routine throughout your whole adult life.'cause there's not like a one and done, I think that is different phases of life, different new things that you learn about that you can, that you can bring in. Um, so, and just to kind of round that out, is there anything else that you would, um, add to your morning routine besides getting up, not going on your phone. First thing, you read some scripture. Um, and then is there anything else that you, that you always make sure to do?

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Well, I, I will say this, I know not everybody's a morning person, but if you stay up late, you're much less likely to have that time in the morning. So we need to sleep in on the front end of our night and not at the, not in the morning side of it. Uh, so you know that that requires. Arranging your life in such a way you can get to bed in a, a good time. Um, the other thing that I'll add that I don't do this every morning, but times, several times a week, is to be outside.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Yes.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

this is, exercise is good, but it's if all you're doing is raising your heart rate, then you're missing out on some key elements of being outside. So. Even in a large office, your line of sight, your maximum line of sight might be 60 or 80 feet. But when you go outside, you can see a mile or two miles,

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Okay.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

on your environment, a long way. It literally expands your vision to be outside. You have a longer line of sight, which gives you a, a longer perspective. You can see more things. I truly believe it expands your thinking to be outdoors. Um, I, I've just experienced it myself. I use it as a tool if I get amped up at work or if I, uh, experience a disappointment or an emotional peak, uh, you know, a negative emotional, and maybe that's a trough. But any case, take a walk outside. I. Not in the building, but I need to see a tree or a, a, you know, a vista or something. And it just, uh, it, it, it changes the way that you're thinking. It opens your mind back up instead of being closed and, and, and, uh, insular and inward. So I would encourage people to add being outdoors to their week.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

I love that and I've experienced this myself where you know, you can get in tunnel vision pretty quickly, like this email chain, and she said this and then this Slack came in like, oh my gosh, this is the only thing in the world. It's like, lemme just like zoom out, go outside. Fresh Air does so much. Getting, getting fresh air into your, into your system. And then, you know, if it's a sunny day or if it's, you know, weather permitting, walk around outside and the views will change and you can take in what you're seeing. And I live in Seattle, so it rains quite a bit. So if, if it's like pouring down rain or whatever, stand outside under a covering. And I like what you said, like I've, I, I, I often, um, I often try to look at something like three feet away. Really focus on that thing and then look at something, um, like, uh, like a couple hundred yards away and focus on that thing. And then look at the furthest thing I can see out in nature or

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

I

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

whatever I'm looking at, and like focus on that thing. And as you were mentioning the perspective, that's what it's doing. It's basically saying like, up close, medium. Long range. Okay. Let me just like literally put those perspectives in my mind's eye. So I love, love, love

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Yeah.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

you said that. So thank you for sharing that. Um, John, you have, uh, tell people what you do, who you help. You have a book coming out. Please tell us, uh, what that's called and where people can find that. Anything else that people should know?

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Well, sure. I, I have a book coming out called Thinking for Success 52 Stories that Upgrade Your Thinking to Boost Productivity, problem Solving and Relationships. And the book really came out of my experience of leading people, and I would notice that they would keep. Doing the same thing that didn't lead to success. do the same silly things over and over. And so I realized telling them to do it differently wasn't working. Shocking, right? And so I began to collect stories would tell a story. And you start a story and it opens up this loop in our brains and we engage more deeply. Three priests walk into a bar. You wanna know what happens.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Yeah.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

So telling stories and then having a conclusion that was a, a practical, uh, application for the story. then we'd give them titles so that we could just say, oh, sounds like your mobile is kind of bouncing around right now. And that would remind us of the story of the mobile and the conclusion. And so after some time I realized, you know what? I'm. I'm gonna forget these. So I'd start to write them down, and then some years later I, I realized I had 40 I said, you know what, if I had 52 of them, you'd have one a year for a weekly staff meeting or something like that. And so I just kept going and I got 70 or more of them and, and had some editors pick the best 50 and, and make it, they, you know, they made it look good and all that kind of thing. And so the book is, is really. Perfectly designed for leaders to use in staff meetings, but individual contributors can use it as well. But it's really about how do we think better every day so that we can continue to get better and and more closer to our purpose. you

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

And what's the name of that? One more time.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

It's called, um, thinking for Success, that, that will find the book. And we have a website called abundant thought revolution.com, abundant thought revolution.com. And you can, um, sign up for intro information about the book and, and other things that we're doing, um, to help people think better every day.

emily-sander_1_05-06-2025_113305:

Beautiful. We'll have all that information in the show notes, but John, thank you so much once again for being on. I've learned a lot and really enjoyed this conversation.

john-knowlton_1_05-06-2025_143304:

Wonderful. Thank you so much. You're a great host.