How Coaching Transforms Leadership at Every Level

Brian Miller, president of Coach Approach Ministries, explains the difference between coaching, consulting, and therapy, and why a "coach approach" helps people solve problems by seeing new perspectives. The discussion includes practical examples for Chief of Staff roles, like asking thought-provoking questions, giving feedback based on observations, and understanding team strengths using tools like Working Genius. The episode shares tips on creating a safe space for honest thinking, growing through coaching, and building complementary teams.

Links Mentioned:
Coach Approach Ministries Website

Get in touch with Emily:
Want to chat with Emily? Book a quick clarity call here.

Free Leadership Resources

LinkedIn

Website

Newsletter

Who Am I?
If we haven’t met before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want.

Time Stamps:
00:40 Defining Coaching and Its Importance

05:50 Coaching vs. Consulting

16:54 The Evolution of Coaching in Industry

23:34 Thought Provoking Coaching

25:33 Effective Coaching Techniques

28:27 Feedback and Radical Candor

31:28 Levels of Learning in Coaching

34:02 Identity and Leadership

39:28 The Value of Assessments in Coaching

Transcript

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 0:25

My guest today is Brian Miller and he is a fellow ICF certified coach and also the president of Coach Approach Ministries. But Brian, welcome to the show. I've been looking forward to this conversation for a long time now.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 0:38

Thanks, Emily. I'm looking forward to it.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 0:40

Beautiful. So first of all, I always talk to my clients about incorporating this coach approach into leadership, into their roles, specifically chief of staff roles. Um, and I think this is pretty universal where almost anyone can incorporate some coach approach elements, um, or um, things like that. So. Maybe we can just start with what we mean by coaching,'cause that's kind of a, a big word for some people. And maybe also define it by what coaching is not, versus, you know, therapy, consulting, some of these other things that get thrown in there. But you are a pro at all this, and you run a company who does this. So let me know your definitions.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 1:19

Well, coaching in its simplest is helping people get from where they are to where they want to go. And, and the number one reason, I mean the, the simple reason why people don't get to where they want to go is'cause they don't know how. But most people know how to get there or they can figure it out. It's, it's often something else that's an obstacle and they're not even necessarily aware what that, that obstacle is. Um, somebody just told me the other day that, that they were just noticing that, uh, institutions are, are failing at a great rate because they're not seeing a bigger perspective. so coaching in particular. to draw the camera out a little bit, to look at the whole picture. Most people are looking right in front of their nose and they're saying, oh, I can't do it because of this. a lot of times, you know, it's like, well, there's a wall between me and there. It's like, no, there's a post, and if you would just move over, could go right through it. And so those are things, I think coaching in general, you know, it, it's expected, it's, it's, it's, it's assuming that the client is healthy and whole. And that they have everything they need to do it. Not everybody does. But assuming that, and I'm wondering your perspective too, at the chief of staff level, I'm hoping that the people around me are competent and capable maybe in ways are seeing things that I'm not seeing. And so if I don't take a coach approach, liable not to have the fullness of their expertise and understanding.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 2:50

Yes. I think a chief of staff certainly needs to have a working knowledge of all the different functional areas. Don't, doesn't need to be an expert in each one, but just. Enough to manage it or kind of sniff out that doesn't quite smell right. Um, and I think the other part of that too, that I, um, work with my clients a lot on is I, I will coach them to coach their principal or I will coach them to mediate kind of a, a personnel issue. And I think a chief of staff helping their colleagues, their boss, whatever stakeholder they're with. See a different perspective or see like there's not only option one and two, there's three, four, A, B, C, D, blue triangle, all these different creative options and just going, oh, having the other person go, oh, whoa, when you say it like that, or, oh, I had never thought of it that way. That's when you get, you know that, that pause where it's like, oh, something hit me that I wasn't expecting. Yes,

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 3:47

live for the

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 3:48

yes.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 3:49

Yes. And uh, and so what you described too, you're, you're, you're going up and down and by that what I would mean that down you might be thinking, oh, these people report to me. I tell them what to do. And, and there certainly is gonna be an aspect of that. But also they're competent people. You might be able to direct them in a, a, a broader way through a coach approach, but then you've gotta go up and you've got a principle that you don't, they don't report to you, you report to them. But one of the best things you can do is, is, is help them to see the bigger perspective because they, they may only see one option they can, and, and it's better, you could tell someone what the other options are, but when they see the options for themselves. Uh, they have a much better grasp and agency, uh, around it. That's, I i, that I think that's one of the tough things is you're, you're coaching somebody you're, you're going, okay. I, I mean, I can, I could just tell you what the five things are. I mean, I've heard this before, I've seen this before, and you think it's a shortcut, but letting somebody do the mental work and, and get there themselves really produces some confidence, some agency. I was just talking to somebody. I was trying to remember what it was, but. Oh, they were tutoring people.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 5:01

Hmm.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 5:02

They say, I never tell'em the answer I don't want them just to get the answer. I want them to be able to navigate their situation and, and I think that's, so a chief of staff's got a group of people and they can give them direction, but once they, it doesn't work or they go a different way, then they may be stuck. But if they take a coach approach, the person knows kind of what the outcome is can navigate, you know, towards it more capably.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 5:29

You hit on so many important things. I think often asking

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 5:33

good.

Coaching vs. Consulting

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 5:33

provoking question, like a thought provoking question is more powerful than, here's steps one, two, and three. You know, certain situations where you're, you're at a time, it is an actual emergency. Servers are down, someone's in danger, whatever, like 1, 2, 3, do it now, but. More often it's let me ask a question to get them thinking in a new way. And I think that leads to one of the differences, at least in my opinion, of a coach versus someone like a consultant. Um, consultants do fantastic things and certainly have their place, but they're more prescriptive in their advice and instruction. And I feel like coaches are more about, um, provoking or evoking that awareness and that different perspective and different contexts and lenses to look through.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 6:15

For sure, but the problem, the, I mean, the problem is that people spend thousands of dollars on a consultant then, um, the consultant says, here's what I would do. And, and the person's thinking, yeah, that's not what I would do. Or I don't like that Exactly. Or it's not mine. And if we success succeed at it, I won't get credit for it. know, or, or, or all kinds of things. Or I don't know how many times I've went to a conference, somebody said, here's a great idea. And I've thought, oh, that is a great idea, but I don't know how to implement it in my situation. And there's so much there. But, but if you, and, and I think you can certainly can combine consulting and coaching. I, I think it probably ought to be combined. So here's the consultant, here's what the consultant said. Now let's make our plan what we're gonna do, what works best for us, how we can implement it best, and, and think it all through and a much higher, you know, mental, uh, space. Like from the balcony is one thing. You know, people say

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 7:14

Yeah, and I think coaching too is so, is so person. And so, um, specific to the individual and the individual situation, and I think you can't just, you know, cookie cutter blanket, like, here's the five steps you do. And this is like, maybe, like, it's maybe better than nothing to give you a start, but you gotta go in there and speak to the person.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 7:33

Well, you're talking about people with a chief of staff. This is high level stuff, you know, this is important. These things are important um, this, this goes along with it. Maybe not exactly, but it just struck me. You know, I'll hear people, I even hear my, uh, adult sons saying, you know, I need to work on myself. And I'm thinking. You don't need to work on yourself. You need to understand how you

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 7:55

Hmm.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 7:57

And that's just a key thing because when we, we think I need to work on myself, oh, because I procrastinate, oh, because I, you know, whatever it is. But if you understand how you're wired, you can say, maybe I don't procrastinate. I, you know, I, I function best under this kind of pressure. But

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 8:14

Yeah.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 8:14

understanding yourself was, is a, is a key thing. And that's coaching too, is. You know, having a wider perspective of who you are and how you function and you know what, what your high performance is,

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 8:25

I love that because each individual, uh, I love coaching partly because when I first meet someone, to me it's like opening a Christmas present. It's like, what do we have in here? And each one's a little bit different. And like the size could be like, lend itself to one thing and you shake it, it's like, looks like this, sounds like this. But oh, once you open it, start, you know, start interacting with it, you get this thing over here. And I think it's so important for people to. Um, understand how they're wired, as you say, so they can have that context as they move into different situations and different interactions with other people. Like, Hey, you know, my strength is here. You put me in this situation, boom, boom, boom. Like, this is where I, I thrive over here. I can do it. It takes more energy, and if I have the option, I'm gonna hire someone or bring someone along who's, who's better at that. But just understanding those types of pieces, I think is really valuable.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 9:17

so let me riff off of something you said that I think is helpful to understand what coaching is. So, so I train coaches. So I see the, the mistakes they make and, and one mistake they make is, I might say to you, is my client. What do you wanna work on today? And you say, oh, you know, I'm having a little trouble with this area. I wanna work on this. The, the amateur coach will say, oh, okay, you wanna work on this? Let's, let's think about that together. Or maybe you might wanna try this or that. And, and a professional coach, here's it and, and thinks, I don't know if that's what you wanna work on or not work on. I, I have no idea at this point. And, and maybe neither do you. But instead of coaching the problem, I'm gonna coach the person. the way you described it, I think it was just like when we, you, you wanna, you know, I think of them as a camera lens. I want to open the, their aperture and, and open an aperture on a lens, it lets more light in. And so I like you, you said, you know, I just, I love coaching somebody and like, oh, I wanna see how you think. And that's exactly it. I want to kind of. I don't think tinker's the right word, but it's what's coming to mind. You don't wanna tinker with them, what button do I need to push? So that you really open up your brain and can really process this information at a high level. And so usually in a coaching session, it starts with what do you wanna work on today? But about halfway through the coaching session, I ask, what do you wanna take away from this conversation? And it's usually not what they said at the beginning. Because I opened up the aperture and they were able to see like, oh, here's the real, the real problem. I was, I was listening to, uh, a, a dumb YouTube, uh, video just to waste a little bit of time. And they were, they were saying, you know, cigarettes, we've been told cigarettes are the reason why, you know, the health system's in bad place, but the real problem's, obesity. And I thought the real problem is anxiety. And, and people smoke because they're anxious and people eat because they're anxious. it's just like, once you just like, oh yeah, it is obesity, you know, we should let people smoke. We should just really, you know, it's like, let's open up the aperture and see what the real, you know, maybe, you know, and I'm not gonna tell you what it is, if I open that up, that, that opportunity for you to think more broadly. Um, then as we move into thinking about a meeting. People just don't go into meetings. Typically, in my experience, thinking more broadly, they're thinking more, know, like, okay, here's the agenda. Okay, here's what I think we ought to do. And, and this is the way my meetings used to go all the time. I was on a committee and I would go to this meeting and they'd say, here's the problem. And I'd say, oh, I'm, I'm looking around Emily and I'm thinking, I'm thinking, and maybe most people do, maybe they don't. I'm the smartest person in the room, so you're welcome, lucky you, uh, here's, here's a good solution. And then somebody else thinks they've got a good solution. And so instead of me wondering about their solution, I start arguing for my

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 12:34

Hmm.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 12:35

or I realize they're not gonna take my solution, and I just shut down thinking, why am I on a committee of dumb people? And I might even express that a little bit in bad ways, but once I became a coach, I realized, okay, here's what the problem is. Let's even, let's ask some wide questions at the beginning of a meeting to make, make sure this is the problem. Let's, let's be sure this is the problem. Let's, let's analyze that. And then when somebody brings up a possible solution, rather than like poke holes in it, let's. Well, that's a great place to start. Let's now how can we open that up and even make that better? I say, Emily, people enjoy me in uh, meetings a lot more than they used to,

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 13:21

They enjoy that you have more of a coach approach. Funny that Yeah. Versus dictating things. Yeah. I think, uh, opening the aperture is such a good analogy.'cause then you can see, oh, it's a, it's a pull versus a wall. And that just opens things up, brings more light in. And also what you're saying about digging deeper. So I, I've noticed the same thing you have where clients will often present something at the top of call, this is what I wanna work on, da da da da. Here's what I call it or what I know it as. But beneath that. Okay. You know, what about that is important to you? Da da. Oh, that has nothing to do with what you initially presented. Got it.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 13:55

Right,

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 13:56

it's something underneath, and that's kind of the, the symptom or kind of the tip of the iceberg, they can name, but it's often something, something more, um, foundational than that.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 14:07

I, I can give you a good example. I was, I was coaching a, a physician, a doctor, and, and if I think about that, like a chief of staff, it would be similar. So the, the doctor's sharing with me some consternation maybe an employee who's not, you know, handling this situation right. very frustrating, upset, maybe angry. And, and one of my very first questions to that doctor was, what needs to change about you for this situation to get better and, and talk about the pause, pause. He's, he's, he's working. What needs to change about me? The problem I described was that this person over here. Is, and so it would be a question I would ask a chief of staff often is, what needs to change about you this to get better? And it's not like it's their problem, but it's also true that the only person I can change in this conversation is me or my client. can't change that employee, I can't change that staff person. So it opens up the, you know, it opens up the aperture to think, uh, you know, maybe I could be more direct with them. they don't know what the problem is, maybe. You know, maybe I should fire them and I'm the problem because I haven't taken care of this. Maybe we've left them in the wrong position. Maybe, you know, there's a, I was coaching a client today and they were saying that they weren't gonna do something until this one thing happened, and then she just added, but I didn't tell'em that, and I thought I had just immediately said, then they don't

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 15:43

Yes. Yeah.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 15:44

you want.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 15:46

Yeah.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 15:47

stopped the conversation, got on the email. And emailed that person and said, here's what I want. I'm like,

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 15:53

There you go. There you go. People aren't mind readers. Yeah, I have many. I have many skills. Mind reading is not one of them. Um, but I think it is so much about. What can you control or what is in your direct control versus trying to grasp at these external things? You, you can't make that person do or feel or say something you want. I mean, you can influence maybe, but you can't make them do it. But you can, you can certainly control. I have a lot of clients who. They assume certain things, they build a story in their head, and some of that's maybe grounded in certain bits of observable, you know, events or facts. And a lot of it is not where it's like, okay, what you can control. What I can control is I'm not gonna assume so much. I'm gonna say that's a data point, that was an event, and then go into this next interaction a little more open than I would've been before. That's what I can control.

The Evolution of Coaching in Industry

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 16:45

Well, let's say you can control them, which you, I agree with you, you can't, but let's say you can. You're not gonna get the performance out of them that you want. You just won't. Coaching came into probably around this 1970 because before 1970, everybody was working on, uh, uh, a line, and they needed to do it exactly the same every time. And you did not want people thinking about it. Don't think of a better way. Don't think of it. You know how to make this interesting. I want you to put the rivet in the hole, and I want you to do it over and over and over again. And about 1970, this is when IBM, uh, is starting to, you know, they, I, I worked for IBM for a, a very short time as an engineer, but they, um, their motto at that time at least was think.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 17:37

Mm.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 17:37

And so that's, that's when coaching began to become something in industry is because they realized employees needed to think. They needed to be able to adapt and adopt and, and, and troubleshoot and, and all kinds of things. And, and they weren't, will, programmed to do that. They, the culture wasn't made for them to do that. They had to begin to think, and think differently. And so they brought in coaches and they, they started thinking, they're looking at psychology. How do we get people to think, how do we draw them out? How do we make them feel more safe? About taking a risk or sharing a problem or whatever it is. And you have to, you know, one, you can change a whole culture one way to change that culture is one person at a time through through coaching.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 18:26

And I think another thing that I, I hear so much from clients is, Emily, I love coaching'cause it's a dedicated time to just think.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 18:35

Oh, for

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 18:36

On my calendar, it's a dedicated time to think it's, for me, it's not about anyone else's agenda, it's just investment in me and kind of what I'm working through. And I mean, where else do you get that? I mean, maybe with your, you know, spouse, family, friends, maybe, but not in the kind of dedicated space

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 18:53

not to be

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 18:54

of

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 18:54

Nobody listens to you. I mean, really. I mean, you, if you have a spouse or a friend that listens, you're, you're

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 19:02

you're doing good.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 19:03

it, it can happen. But, but especially if you're chief of staff, I mean, your day, you, you've got pe you, you're just putting out fires all day. You, you, you don't necessarily have a dedicated time. so just even having, I've had, you know, whether, even whether your coaches any good or not, you've put aside an hour every, you know, couple weeks just to think through something. And that in itself. You know, when, when we think about what to charge for coaching, I, I train a lot of coaches and they're thinking, I don't know if I'm worth it. I'm like, it probably has nothing to do with you. The set aside hour is worth something. Coaching is worth something. The outcome they get is worth Uh, but like you said, just even just having an hour to think really valuable.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 19:55

Sometimes my only job is to hold the space for someone to think out loud,

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 19:59

right.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 19:59

and that's, that's it. But the value they get from it, as you say, the value and outcomes that will transpire from that are exponential so that it's, it's high ROI for this one. Hour or half an hour of time, you get so many upsides. So, um,

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 20:15

I can, I can hold, I can create safety.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 20:18

mm-hmm.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 20:18

You're free to speak. You know I can, I can make you feel comfortable enough to. You can say whatever you wanna say. I don't work for the

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 20:26

Yes. Yep.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 20:26

I'm not gonna talk to your boss or any of your employees. Or even if I do, it doesn't matter you, it's not going. I, I've coached whole organizations. I coached, I coached an organization that was going through just massive change. and there was one employee that, that probably wasn't quite on board, made me available to coach him and he was interested in it, but he didn't trust me because I was friends with the CEO. And so he, and I don't even know what it was, but I know he told me something and so that he could see if it got to the CEO and came back to him and it didn't. And then I was able to coach him and he could freely open up think broadly. And, you know, not only are you creating safety, but you're creating, um, uh, a focus like. People, not, not everybody's good at focusing, so you're like, let's just stay on this one thread. once we identify a thread, let's stay on that thread all the way through, and then not only at the end, you're like, okay, you've had some good thinking. What have you learned about yourself? What have you learned about the, the process and what are you going to do? know, that's the, I, I like coaching I even like being coached until the very end when they say, Brian, what are you gonna do? I'm like, oh, I don't want to do anything. I do like thinking,

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 21:52

And I mean, I mean you said even if they have a bad coach, they have a dedicated time. But if you have a good coach, someone who, number one

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 22:00

one,

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 22:00

present with you and your success is their success, they have nothing. They have no other agenda besides making you the best, you know, team, member, performer, or whatever you wanna you can be. And that is rare that, I mean, if you have a good spouse, if you have a good friend, maybe you get like glimmers of this thing. But for someone to be locked in. On you and dedicated to you a hundred percent. That's a rare thing. And if they're trained well and can ask these, you know, provoking questions and, um, I, wow,

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 22:29

I do,

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 22:30

didn't think,

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 22:30

provoking questions, but I think even more. I'm, and I'm, I'm curious what you do. I more with leaders, I make observations. Yeah. So I don't make observations like, you know what you ought to do, you ought to

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 22:42

no.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 22:42

I don't make that observation. I make this observation when you say that person's name, I hear pain, or I hear something negative.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 22:52

Yeah.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 22:53

like, what is that? You know, not, and not that it's a problem, but they, they may not, there's a good chance they don't recognize that, I challenge a belief, you know, boy, I'd like to make this different, but there's no way I can do that. I'm like, oh, hang on. You know, what has led you to believe you can't do anything about that? Oh, you know, maybe it's from my childhood or maybe it's from something somebody said off the cuff or, you know, uh, and maybe they like, but, but that, safe, not only is it safe and not only is it evoking, I think it's safe enough to have enough challenge in there for somebody to, you know,

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 23:34

Yeah.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 23:34

make you think more deeply about whatever it is you're, you know, holding you back. Yeah,

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 23:40

Yeah. I think evoking is the right word. I'm provoking. I'm not trying to poke someone with a stick, but thought provoking I think is

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 23:45

Well, direct statements can be very evoking if I say what you know, is that true? You know, that's,

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 23:52

How do you know that's true? Yeah,

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 23:53

true.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 23:53

I think,

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 23:54

yeah.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 23:54

I think,

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 23:54

when you say, you know, when you talk about this, your shoulders go up.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 23:59

yeah,

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 23:59

like

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 24:00

observ.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 24:00

I remember sitting at a table with somebody and I was. I was telling him I wasn't that upset about it. And he just made the observation, Brian, you're halfway across the table. And I was, I looked at myself and I'm like, I did. I wasn't aware of my own even physicality tone.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 24:20

I think.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 24:20

can be really helpful to have a second set of eyes. You know, tiger Woods at one point was the best golfer in the world. And you know what? He had a

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 24:28

Mm-hmm.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 24:29

and he didn't have a coach'cause he wasn't a good golfer. Her he didn't have a coach who said, you know how to golf. Let me show you how to, he had a coach to have a second set of eyes who could see things not only about his physicality, but his mentality, his emotions, else it would be. and it was all encompassing and, and that was why he had a coach and that's why he won a lot of tournaments besides just being

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 24:55

Yeah,

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 24:55

talented.

Effective Coaching Techniques

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 24:56

and you think of all the greats at the top of their field, they all have coaches. They all have a team of coaches working with them to get that edge, to get a little bit better. I always love the visual of a basketball coach with their hands on their knees, like watching intently, watching the game, watching their players. That's what a coach is to me. I, I'm watching my players, so to speak, and I think the observations are so powerful when they'll say. You know, five different things and they'll be like, sorry for rambling so much. I'm like, no, actually that's good. I've noticed a through line, a potential theme here. I'm gonna reflect that back to you. What comes up when I say that? Oh my God. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. And then we start talking about that stuff. But being able to, um, sometimes they can't see it'cause they're looking at the pole, right? They think it's a, think it's a wall

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 25:41

And

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 25:41

and it's like, oh, I, I can clearly see there's a pattern here. Let me just share this back to them. And that's all. That's all it takes.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 25:48

what the pattern means, and I don't know if it's exactly right, but I observe a pattern. I can, I can share with you, I saw a pattern. And then I think a mistake a coach can make is say, you know, here's the pattern and you know what that means? No, I don't know what that, I don't know what that

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 26:03

I don't know what it means to you. I know what it.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 26:05

right? No, no, no. And even if I'm right. what it means. It's so much better if you let the client come to their own conclusion and, and then they have confidence. basketball coach is Steve Kerr. He is not having a lot of luck with the Golden State Warriors right this minute, but he, um, he's rarely up. always watching. And he is always talking at, you know, quietly, but he's never yelling at anybody from the sideline. Like you see a lot of

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 26:35

Yeah.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 26:36

and this is why a lot of people don't want coaches, Emily, and I'm saying this maybe hopefully for potential clients of yours that are listening, they think that coaching is, they're gonna yell at me or tell me what I ought to do and that's not what I'm gonna do. And you're like, well, what good is that? Well, Steve Kerr won four World Championships by observing. And talking. He had a system. I mean, it's not like he, but, but once the players are out there, he lets them play. He wants them to be able to navigate themselves while they're on the court. And that's what we want. You know, we want, we're not gonna be there for your meetings. We're not gonna be there when you have a tough conversation with your principal. We're not gonna be there, but we can create an approach and a mentality for you that's going to serve you well, and you'll be able to navigate even better. Uh, because of, uh, your, your relationship with us.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 27:30

And I think in some cases we can be there right before and after if it's that acute situation.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 27:35

Yes.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 27:35

And, and I, you know, I go back to the someone who's a hundred percent dedicated to you. So they are for a coach is for you. A good coach is for you and what you want, you want, like you said before, get to where you want to go. My job is to help you get there. Um, clearly, clearly define that for yourself and then to help you. Get there. Um, but observation. Yeah.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 27:58

maybe this is me as like as a coach, like like a basketball coach, maybe often is I want it more than they do.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 28:03

Yeah. Yeah.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 28:04

Yeah. I really want you to succeed.

Feedback and Radical Candor

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 28:08

Yes, yes. But I think some kind of tactical and practical things, uh, we've said are like observations. Anyone can, anyone can do that. Share an observation you're having with someone versus, you know, accusing them of something or, you know, again, creating that story arc in your head, but you don't know for sure. Share an observation, see what comes up in the conversation.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 28:27

So this is, you know, there's a, a, a, when we try to, when we teach people to give feedback, it's, it has a coaching element to it. It's like, um, so if somebody's always coming in late, you can, you know, make the observation they're lazy or they're not prepared, or they're, you don't care, or whatever it is. But you, you don't know. You don't know. so best just to even make the observation, I've noticed that you're coming into the meeting late, you know, on a regular basis and let them usually that it's like, oh, I, you know, I didn't realize it was late. Or, you know what, I do need to do better on that, or whatever it is. And if, but if they're like, I don't think it even matters, then you can describe the impact. You know, what's, what's, here's, here's, here's the, here's the impact it's having on me and everyone else. Oh, okay. And then particularly in feedback, a hundred percent want person to, to come up with a plan do something different. I, I think that's the total mistake is I ask people, if I ask chief of staff if they give good feedback and they'll say, oh, I'm blunt. I'm like, that's not what I'm saying. I do want you to be direct, but, but you are just being blunt and it it. their response. You know, I, I think a chief of staff wants as much good, dynamic responsiveness, um, you know, at whatever level that can be in creating that culture. And that's probably a different mentality than a lot of people have.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 29:57

I think it is, I think it, I always go back to Kim Scott's, uh, radical Candor where she says You have to care about someone personally, like as a person and be direct. You gotta have both. And people sometimes skip out on one or the other. It doesn't work. So, um, guess.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 30:11

I love that. Particularly if I tell somebody something tough, I'm usually like, you know, I liked you well enough to tell you.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 30:17

Yeah. Yeah. And I think there is something where if you know someone is not just, you know, raking you across the coal to make you feel bad, it's like, no,'cause I care about you and I'm investing in you, and I want you to get better. That's a whole different, whole different, um. But I think too, uh, there's observations. I think, you know, we mentioned kind of behavior. You mentioned like their body language, their tone of voice, just making observations. I also think, um, like I always try to think to myself. What does the world look like to this person? Like they have their sets of background and experiences and biases. We all do, but like, what does the world look like to this person? And so therefore, what does this situation look like and mean to them? And I think if you can unpack that or just get a little bit closer to that, as a chief of staff, as an executive, as a leader, any capacity. That takes you a long, long way, and it gets you to better answers. You're not guessing, you're not assuming as much, and it gets you to better answers. So let me know what comes up for you when I say that.

Levels of Learning in Coaching

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 31:22

Oh, for sure. And our, our, our, we're in a story. And we've identified, so there's, there's three levels of, of learning. And one level of learning is I see something happen and I think, what could I do different? I'll, I'll do something different to get a different result. I don't like it. Um, that's one level of learning. A second level of learning is to realize I have a strategy. I didn't even know I had a strategy and maybe it's not a very good strategy, but I didn't even know I had a strategy. we could coach around a better strategy. What would be a better strategy that would give us a new set of actions to take might come to better results? And that's probably, I'm, I'm assuming that's where you coach most, is around this idea of opening up people to think about a different strategy. But the deepest level, if the client's open to it and they're not always, like, not even, you know, not even somebody who is open, isn't always open every session get to identity. And that the reason why I think this strategy might work is because, of, of some, you know, however I identify myself, I grew up on a farm and so I, you know, I don't live on a farm. I haven't lived on a farm for, you know, 40 years. And I, I, you know, I worked at IBM, you know, I, I still think of myself as a farm boy, and particularly when I, like, I have an admin, I have, I have three admins, and when I have an admin, I don't always. I, I, there's things I don't let them do, and I think it's because I'm a farm boy and a farm boy wouldn't let somebody else paint the fence. You know, they're not better than anybody else, sometimes the farm boy need, you know, sometimes I need to stop painting the fence and I need to realize what my prop, you could just tell me not to paint the fence, but I'm just gonna go back to painting the fence when I'm done. But if you could help me identify, I'm not a farm boy. I'm the president of Coach Approach Ministries. You know, I'm the president of an organization and I, I can't be painting the fence. It's like, that's helpful.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 33:30

Yes.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 33:31

that level of mentality. So I love to even think about when I'm coaching and my coaching at the action level. Am I coaching at the strategic level or am I coaching at the identity level? I literally think I can coach back and forth, just kind of, I don't have to just pick one. I can go back and forth a little bit to see, you know, maybe it's like a chiropractor or a physical therapist. I gotta see if you're willing to stretch, you know? Are you able to stretch in that area today? No. Okay. Well, let's, let's find another area to stretch. Ranch.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 34:02

Yes, identity is so huge and I work with a lot of people who've just, uh, been promoted into a new role, and so they're having to embody this whole new capacity sometimes at a different company, which is like, people don't know you as anything else. They don't know your hangups that you had at the previous place. So it's almost like you get to reinvent yourself in these, in these new, uh, inflection points. But yeah, and it's sometimes.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 34:25

If you got promoted, you have more power than you used to have and you, you have identified yourself previously as a person, maybe even, who was powerless in some ways. you don't just go into a new position thinking, now I'm powerful. Or if you are, then you even need to think about, okay, what kind of person am I that has

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 34:47

Yes.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 34:47

of power?

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 34:48

Yes, the kind of person they wanna be is, is the foundation. And then like the titles and roles you get on top of that will come and go and you know you need to wear them well. But it's the kind like, what kind of leader do you wanna be? Not the VP of operations, not the SVP of sales and marketing. That's a title and you have to perform a function, but what type of person and leader do you wanna be? And then we can move to fulfilling these functional roles.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 35:13

you have to do that. I, I, I can guarantee you that. I mean, one reason I don't play the lottery is because if I won a billion dollars, it would ruin me. Ruin me. I, I would be, would be an absolute jerk. I would, you know, I would be really, I, my judgmentalism would go up. It was just all kinds. I would have to become a much better person to have that kind of power. And so maybe, luckily, most promotions are just one level, and so it's like, so I've got a little time to work into this level. how to be direct, you know, all, all kinds of issues. That's a, I love that,

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 35:54

Yeah.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 35:55

mental image there.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 35:56

So many good things. And I think the other thing I just wanted to highlight, you said is towards the end of a conversation, you know, what, what are you learning here? Or maybe like, what are we learning? If that's, if you, it's a little bit too, and then, you know, what are we gonna do with this? So as chief of staff, I mean, people started chuckling when I said this, but I was like, okay, and what are next steps? And who owns that and when are we gonna get that done by? And they're like, oh, okay. Emily's doing her chief of staff thing. But it kept people moving forward, not just. We sat here in a meeting for 60 minutes, talked about some stuff, and then nothing happens.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 36:27

Well, coaching at its root, and this has been helpful to me, it's a little more advanced, is a learning catalyst.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 36:33

Hmm,

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 36:35

I think people think, oh, it's like consulting. It's getting you from here to there. And it certainly is. But, but, and, and also because we live in what's become a very complex world, maybe we always did. There's, there's three levels of, i, I always think there's three levels probably. Sorry

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 36:50

no worries.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 36:51

But there's simple. It's like, oh, I understand this. And then there's complicated and it's, it takes a little bit of expertise, but then there's complex and, and complex. It doesn't, even if you're an expert, it doesn't always operate the way you think it is. It doesn't operate the same way twice. We've moved into a complex world and nobody's exactly sure what works and what doesn't work, and the absolute key thing you need to do is to be paying attention and learning all the time. one great way to learn is to have a coach. Who helps you reflect on the issue, the situation, think it all the way through, and then absolutely a great coach at some point's gonna ask you either, what have you learned about yourself, or what have you learned about this problem? Or both. And you are just constantly, I mean, you could go get, you could go take a college class or something, but they may not even, this is so cutting edge. They may not even have this, or it's different than it used to be. Or even having a mentor. I call my mentor. How did you deal with this? I don't know. We didn't have the internet when that was, you know, things are so complex that one of the absolute best things you can do is have a coach who's helping you process it and think about it and become a learner the time.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 38:12

Yeah. Well, I mean one of the many reasons I have coaches, plural, I have a team of coaches that I work with is because my personal philosophy is I want to build and develop my inner excellence. So that I can help build and develop that in others. That's what I do as a coach, and that's just, you know, I can't, how can I, why would I leave something on the table? I can get better through coaching and having my coaches work with me? Why, why would I not do that? It just seems very, very odd to me. Um, one of, one of the last questions as we wind down here. This is something I've been. Playing around with and tinkering. Tinkering around with. You use the phrase, some people are just wired that way, and I've heard people say that in so many words a lot of the times, and sometimes I go, yes, I know what they mean. At a core, people are built differently and born differently. Genetics, whatever, predispositions, whatever. And then there's this whole body of work around. Neuroplasticity and, you know, uh, fixed mindset versus, you know, you can, you can always learn and grow and change and most people underestimate how much of themselves they can change. And I'm wondering, as a coach, as a person who coaches, coaches, uh, or trains coaches, how do you distinguish between those two?

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 39:28

I, I really like, I, I, I really want to bring some awareness, uh, particularly when working with an organization to the team and, and there are many assessments, and I'll use some of those assessments and it may depend. Genius is an assessment that says, and let, let's just use that one for a second. So, um, working Genius says, and I, well, I won't go through it all, but there's, there's six, there's six things you can be. And, and so first of all, you can't be all six and it's saying you're good at two, you're mediocre at two, and you're bad at two. Uh, and so the two I'm worst at, and it's all about work and the two I'm worst at are the ones that get things done.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 40:09

Hmm.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 40:09

You know, and whether you look at strengths finders, the things, the ones I'm worse at are the ones I, when it takes to get things done. I have one strength when it comes to execution and it's belief.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 40:21

Hmm.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 40:21

Belief, I believe we can do it, and I do have that strength, but I don't, you know, it doesn't make me do it. so I just even said, I have three admins and, and, and when I hire an admin, guess what, what I want to see on a working genius I, for, they get two strengths, but they gotta have one in the bottom. Two, they, they either gotta be, enable, or be tenacity. We were in a meeting the other day and, and, and the, the person who's right under me, we, we've been in meetings for three days and, and, uh, I'm much, you know, my, my strengths are, are, are bringing a team together, being encourager, wondering about big picture things. And we were at the very end and I was ready to be done and the person right under me said, we've got to take all these last straggling things and put'em in a spot.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 41:13

Hmm.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 41:13

And I found myself immediately thinking. No, we do not. know, we don't, we can wait on that. We took a break as I thought about it, I thought, thank God that I have surrounded myself with someone who says, let's finish up really strong I don't finish strong, and so let's, and, and, and we did. We put everything in its place. I even made it, you know, I'm an encourager, so I had to say that was good, you know? Um, but, but just thinking about, think assessments can be really helpful. another assessment I like. There's a, there's four and there's a builder, a innovator, a a merchant and a banker. And I am not a banker. I'm not a banker. And so when I have a team, I always make sure there's somebody on my team that's a banker. Um, now if you're only a banker, then you're not, then you're too protective. You're not taking enough risk. You gotta have. So if you were just a banker, you'd better go find some people who are gonna push you to take risk and, and move out a little further. But you, you know, the best team is usually, I mean, just, it's a lot, usually like three or four personalities. And you need to think that way when you're developing your team of not only do are they competent, but do they have that chemistry that's gonna fit and bring the pieces We don't have, you could have. Four really smart people who never get anything done, and that's not, that's not

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 42:45

It's not helpful. Yes, you need to be competent and complimentary to the rest of your team.

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 42:50

Yeah, absolutely.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 42:51

Yeah. Brian, this has been fantastic. Is there anything else that you want people to know about coaching and just about the coach approach in general?

brian-miller_1_01-15-2026_133313 43:00

Sure. You know, if you're interested in coaching, if you go to coach approach ministries dot uh org, we have a full training system that is aligned with the International Coaching Federation. We can, you can do everything with us, uh, all the way up to get an A CC or A PCC, with our organization. And, um. Yeah, I, I think that's the last piece. I love coaching. I butter my bread with coaching. I don't even know what that means, but some kind of analogy that, uh, and, and I really appreciate the time you've given me here, Emily.

emily-sander_1_01-15-2026_113314 43:30

Beautiful. Well, Brian, thank you so much. I think people can, can employ, can employ tactical takeaways from our conversation, certainly just from this conversation. And then if you actually wanna become a coach and say, you know what, I see the value in this. It makes me better. It makes the people around me better. It makes my team better. This is a skill that. You can invest in and there's nothing but upside for your career. So I think if you're thinking about becoming a coach, I would highly encourage that. Reach out to Brian. We'll have his information in the show notes. But any little things you can do to incorporate a coach approach into your leadership, I think is positive. So Brian, you train coaches. Thank you so much for your time, and I really appreciate the insights that you've shared with me. I've learned a lot and our listeners,