The Intersection of Sports Psychology, Mindfulness, and Effective Leadership

Emily talks with performance coach Benjamin Smith about using sports psychology and mindfulness for better leadership. They cover tools like visualization, breathwork, and grounding exercises for handling pressure, and discuss the importance of play, self-compassion, and knowing your core values. Benjamin also shares why striving for endless self-improvement isn’t always the answer and how feeling “whole” is key to real performance.

Links Mentioned:
Benjamin Smith's Website

Benjamin Smith’s Substack

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Who Am I?
If we haven’t met before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want.

Time Stamps:

01:04 Sports Psychology Basics

02:27 Quarterback Pressure Tools

09:35 Flow State And Mindfulness

17:01 Conflict And Body Awareness

23:06 Body Based Calming Tools

25:09 Reframing Threat as Safety

26:20 Compassion in High Performance

27:48 Beyond Self Improvement Mindfulness

40:01 Play Joy and Closing

Transcript

0:06

Welcome back to Leveraging Leadership, where we unpack the art of business leadership. I'm your host, Emily Sander, chief of staff to an executive leadership coach. This show is all about finding your points of greatest influence and leveraging them to better serve those around you.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 0:25

My guest today is Benjamin Smith and he is a performance coach, and he kinda works at the intersection of sports psychology, leadership development, and spirituality. So he uses evidence-based tools from sports psychology with contemplative practices to help people develop inner leadership. And Benjamin talks about going beyond the optimization culture. It's not the 1% better and what happens if meditation and journaling don't work? So Benjamin, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the show.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 0:58

Thanks for having me, Emily. It's a pleasure to be here and, and having this conversation with you. Grateful

Sports Psychology Basics

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 1:03

Beautiful. So I played sports when I was little, so basketball and soccer. So I'm definitely from that world. And you have definitely dived into the sports psychology world, both for players and their performance and also coaches. Is that right?

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 1:18

Yeah, that's right. Um, kind of the, the peak performance, what happens in our mind, uh, under pressure, um, which definitely affects athletes, but also affects coaches and, and leaders. Um. And absolutely translates to all these other spaces in life. I think, uh, sports are often the front. The first pri uh, first pri, not first priority frontier, uh, shall we say, of kind of cutting edge tools and, and mental performance. But they really translate across disciplines into business, um, into the arts, into, uh, healthcare, all these spaces. We're seeing more and more mental performance, um, coaches and, and kind of, uh, a growing awareness of how to train our minds, um, to. burnout to be focused when we need to, need to be. Um, and also to just be more present and, and joyful to the good moments as well. So, um, all that, all, all that tied together. Yeah.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 2:09

What sports did you coach?

Quarterback Pressure Tools

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 2:11

Uh, I've coached high school football for almost a decade now, um, and a little bit of time at the college level as well there. Um, and then worked with athletes and coaches really across all levels. Um, but that's, that's my kind of hobby, passion space. Yeah.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 2:27

So, so longtime listeners of this show know I'm a huge Seahawks fan and we did win the Super Bowl last season. So Sam Darn is our, is our quarterback. Uh, if you've got a quarterback and there, there's so, there's so much that goes into that position, right? You've gotta be smart, you've gotta know the playbook, you've gotta make the reads. There's. The intuitive part, there's the physical part, there's the mental piece. How, just so we have a baseline in the sports world, how do you train a quarterback to be at their peak performance?

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 2:58

Yeah, well I was that quarterback and I

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 3:00

Okay.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 3:00

so that's what, drew me into this work. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, so I struggled with, with the yips as a, a high school quarterback and was really curious, like, what is going on in my mind in these moments. Um, and I think for, for everyone, this operates differently. Um, right. So there's no like kind of blanket approach to peak performance. Um, but for, for my experience and, and what I've seen with a lot of other folks is, uh. We can get so concerned with what other people think of us and how do I fit in and belong? And if I don't perform well, um, how's that gonna reflect? And so we can get into these deep kind of existential questions pretty fast, um, even if it just shows up on the surface as performance anxiety. So there's, um, way to start. With some of the tools around arousal regulation and our nervous system to start to move from that fight or flight mode, um, into the calm and connect, parasympathetic nervous system. Uh, and really that the quickest way is just using the breath, um, breathing into about a count of four and out to about a count of six. And so in those moments when we feel like the pressure's mounting and I don't know how to navigate this, um, that's just a very quick kind of go-to movement. Um. outside of, of, of the breath and, and physiology also starting to notice like what is the self-talk that we're having right now? Like where, what are the, the thinking patterns and habits of mind, um, that are occurring? And for me, a lot of the time it was, don't mess up, don't make a mistake. Um, you gotta be perfect. And that's a, that's hard

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 4:35

That's one way to go.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 4:38

Um, and so. Uh, as, as I've, um, worked in this space and, and trained my own mind, it's been kind of listening to what's that voice concerned about and can I kind of become a companion with it and befriend it. Um, sometimes there's, there's some self-talk literature about like, def uh, mitigate, uh, negative. Thought with a positive thought. And I found that's not quite as effective as just kind of listening to if the negative thinking is there, that's okay. It can be there. Um, but we can just kind of acknowledge it and say, Hey, can you step to the side here?'cause there's a bigger essence of, of myself that that needs to come out and, and compete in this. So, so those are a couple of, of the, the, the movements we might make. Um, goal setting visualization. A bunch of other tools in the, in the toolkit as well. Um, but for me a lot of it is just helping people ground to what do you like at your best and what are your core values so that every time you step on the field, it doesn't have to be about. Performing to other people's expectations or, um, meeting whatever success looks like externally. Um, but really, like, who do you want to be? What values do you wanna embody? And then can we train your mind and, and your physiology so that you can show up in those moments more of your best self, um, as, as much as possible.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 5:59

And what does some of that visualization look like? Because as a quarterback, um, you, you get real time feedback. Meaning if you make a quote unquote mistake, booze will rain down on you from the crowd and you'll, I mean, you can try not to care about what other people think, but when tens of thousands of people are telling you explicitly how they feel, uh, that can be, you have to have a strong sense of self and a strong. I guess baseline already built up, which perhaps goes into the preparation visualization. Like once you're on the field, you know, you've done, you've done your prep, you, you're, you've done all you can. So how does the, um, how does some of those visualizations or maybe some of the prep work work.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 6:43

Yeah, I mean, you're exactly right. A lot of this is not stuff you can pull out of, out of a hat in the middle of a pressure filled game and just expect to work, right? It's, it's practice, it's preparation, just like training, um, the body or. Are training, um, your craft. So no matter what kind of discipline you're in, um, thinking about this as a deliberate practice of, of building these skills over time. So visualization's one way to do that, just kinda imagining what's that situation that you're gonna walk into, whether it's on the field or maybe you're going into a big meeting, um, and you're trying to navigate, how do I hold, uh, kind of conflicting ideas in this room in the best way possible or. I get a little nervous doing public speaking. How might I navigate that? Um, so what we can do is before you even enter into that moment, think through how do I wanna show up? What do I want that to feel like in my body? And then kind of imagine yourself walking into that, that scenario with as much sensory input and data as possible. Um, and you can rep that, uh, that practice. So you can start to see yourself in those moments more and more, um, and see yourself succeeding more and more. And then when you're in those moments for the quote unquote the first time, it's, it's really not the first time because you've already practiced that in your mind beforehand. Um, and for the, the folks who might think, Hey, that's. That's sounds kind of woo woo or cheesy. Uh, the research around visualization and imagery is remarkably strong. Um, there's a whole body of scientific evidence on the effectiveness of this in sport performance, um, but also, also in other context too. So this, this stuff works and it is a, a deliberate practice that happens kind of beforehand. Um, so you're not kind of stuck in these big pressure filled moments with no tools, um, or no practice. Yeah.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 8:30

A number of sports team, professional sports teams, uh, visualization exercises are part of their training, like the, you know, thinking of them going to the gym to lift weights and then go run drills on the field, and then visualization and then like yoga and Pilates are kind of on the edges and making their way, way in as well. But it's. So efficacious. It's been proven where if you go through this in your head, just like you said, it's not the first time you've done it. I also just wanna highlight the piece you said as well around practice. Meaning don't just try to like, okay, I read this book and then there's like these three steps, like in the moment I'm gonna try to do these things. No, no, no, no, no. It's all the stuff you do before, and I'm assuming afterward that that helps you in those moments. What else in the sports world that we can then talk about translates into the business world? But what else in the sports world would help like a quarterback or an athlete in moments of pressure? In moments of where, oh shoot. Like I, okay, I just threw an interception and everyone is booing me. How do you, how do you train yourself to, to do that?

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 9:35

Yeah, there's a kind of a fine balance here, and this is not just in sports, but other industries too, of, of holding expectations loosely, right? There's the, um, reality of if you throw too many of those interceptions, you don't have a job. If you make too many mistakes, um, there, there are consequences. Um, and if we attach too much to the outcome. Often that creates its own anxiety and kind of paralysis. So, um, in, in sports we talk about being in the zone, and this is really the, the idea of a flow state as Mihi chicks at Mihi, uh, the psychological researcher kind of termed, um, this experience where you lose track of time. You feel really. In the moment, um, your action and awareness kind of merge into one thing. Um, and there's this lack of self-consciousness. And to get into flow state is, is partly to let go of some of those expectations and still to have concrete goals and instill to, to lean into challenge. Um, but it's really to be a part of, of the moment. Um, and that's where I think. The beauty of our contemplative practices from different spiritual traditions and, and wisdom traditions, uh, across human history, uh, dovetails really neatly with sports psychology. So. meditative traditions that speak so much about releasing expectations and, and kind of the external worlds to be fully present in this moment in our bodies, um, in this moment of time and kind of letting go of, of all of, uh, what other people might, might expect of us. Um, paradoxically allows us to be at our best performance wise too. So it's kind of this. This, uh, mo moving and, and striving and doing and just this being, releasing and letting go at the same time. Um, and that's a difficult movement to walk and, and people, myself included, find themselves in, in different parts of that, that paradox, um, at different times. Uh, but that's, that's kind of this, um, great space to be in, in athletics, but also in just in, in life, um, performance is, is in that flow state, in that zone.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 11:48

And Cooper Cup is a Seattle Seahawks wide receiver, and so he like does a, runs a route and catches the ball. And he's notorious, he's infamous for, for not being outcome driven. He's, he goes, I want to run this route. With as much precision and attention to the fine details to run the best route I possibly can. That's my sole focus and he is trained his mind to do that. And then he is like, if I catch the ball, great. That's like the natural outcome of all my practice and me focusing on running the very best route I can. But there's so many other factors in football that are just outside of your control. His focus is on how do I run the best route. Um, so you mentioned mindfulness there, so, um, where does mindfulness and working under pressure come into play? So if you are leading a huge. Team meeting and you've got lots of stakeholders around the table and it's a high stakes decision and discussion. Uh, lots of pressure. You've talked about mindfulness. How do those two things interrelate?

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 12:52

Yeah. Um, well, going back to the, the, uh, conversation around flow state, um, I actually ran a large, uh, randomized control trial with, uh. Athletic department, college level. Um, and we implemented a mindfulness practice for the entire athletic department. Taught them, um, some of these real simple practices of just following the breath on the inhale and the exhale, um, starting to build a little bit more awareness to what's happening in the present moment. And then we assessed, uh. performance and their wellbeing and flow state was one of our markers of, of performance. And uh, this has been shown in, in other studies too, but. Increases in, in mindful awareness are also correlated with increases in being able to be in the moment, be in in flow state. so if you're thinking about approaching that, um, important meeting and there's the nervousness, there's the kind of fear or uncertainty of, of how are people going to react? Um, really starting to just notice those things. And that's, that's the, the hardest. Piece I think in, in a mindfulness practice is it's uncomfortable sometimes You start to realize like, oh my, you know, my hands are, are starting to, to clam up a little bit. My breath is coming a little faster. Um, or, you know, I'm, I'm feeling a little guarded because this person might take this the wrong way and, and, and get angry. Um, but the more we can notice, the more we can also notice our capacity to hold multiple things at once and kind of sit in this. Bigger spaciousness. and that's a space where we have much more agency and control over how we respond. So rather than kind of reacting to the environment around us, really choosing from our values, our sense of, of direction and clarity. How we wanna respond to this moment. So you can have someone angry at you, you can have someone, um, disagreeing with you. You can have, uh, people kind of judging you in, in that space and be able to hold all of that and still make the decision that's that most aligned with, um, what you think is is right and what's most aligned with, um, who you are. So that's, that's one way mindfulness can, can come into play in that type of setting.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 15:04

And it seems like it's a transition from, oh my. Gosh, something is happening. Oh, no, no, no. They're mad in front of everyone and something is happening to me,

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 15:12

Yeah.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 15:12

now I, I feel bad to have no control versus like, Hey, okay, like so-and-so is definitely not happy with what I said. And wow, there's, there are still a lot of people in this conference room, and then I like what you said about, and then I get to choose what I do from there. It's a choice. There's something's happening and then there's space. And then I have a choice, and I'm assuming, but you tell me if, if it goes back to core values, you mentioned that before, like knowing who you are and what you're about. And uh, you know, if you have a core value, then you know, what would this type of person do in this situation? Is that the next step There?

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 15:48

Yeah, absolutely. Um, there's this famous quote that's often attributed to Viktor Frankl. I'm not sure if he's the one who originally said it, but between stimulus and response, there's a a choice. And in that choice lies our growth and our freedom. And I think that's really what we're talking about. Like can we expand that space between stimulus and response to notice what's happening externally and how that shifts. What's happening internally in my inner life, and then how can I choose to respond in a way that's aligned with who I wanna be? So for me, courage and compassion are, are core values. So what would it look like to respond to this moment with courage? And maybe that's saying the hard thing that you don't wanna say because,

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 16:29

Hmm.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 16:30

it might lead to more conflict, but really needs to be said to progress the meeting, to progress, um, the business. Um, and it's leaning into that and, and saying it. In, uh, perhaps a compassionate way that understands where the other person's coming from, what concerns they have. Um, and that's also self-compassionate, that can hold, you know, like, Hey, this is a difficult moment for everyone here and, and let's see how we can move through this with gentleness. Um, but also firmness of, of knowing,

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 16:57

Yeah.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 16:58

what choices and, and decisions need to be made.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 17:01

And so many people, like chiefs of staff, executives, but just people in general avoid conflict and it like, it's a natural response. I don't like conflict. I don't like people angry at me. I don't like to, you know, I'm not doing that on purpose. But there is healthy conflict and there are moments where it's like, Hey, we do need to talk about this thing. How would you, what would you say to someone who is. I, I really, I don't like conflict. I avoid it like the plague, but yet it is part of my job as chief of staff executive or, or many other roles you can list.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 17:33

Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that question. It's a very, very good one. Um. I think part of this goes back to the real deeper work of, of mindfulness, which is, is building that awareness. So when, when I'm working with someone in, in this situation, I've worked with, um, several executives and founders who are interested in kind of progressing their, their work, and all of a sudden we come to this question of, Hey, I need to have this difficult conversation with a co-founder and I don't know. How to do it, because I've been a people pleaser my whole life.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 18:03

Mm-hmm.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 18:04

so part of what we do is just like, okay, let's slow all of this down. When you think about having that conversation, what happens in your body? Like where, where do you feel the discomfort? And it may be like a tightness in your chest. It may be that you just kind of cut yourself off from your body and you're just in your, your mind. Um, it may be that kind of beating, beating heart fast. Um. Can, it can show up in so many different ways, but just slow down and see how does it show up in my body? And then we might pause and just notice where does your mind go? What are your thoughts and what are the fears associated with that? Like, and sometimes, we'll, we, we will see there's a whole cycle of, of inner dialogue that just catastrophizes and, and goes down this rabbit hole of if, if this happens and they don't. of me this way, then it's gonna create all these external or kind of long-term consequences. Um, and just noticing where that, that train of thought goes. And then sometimes we can, we can zoom out there and say like, is this associated with some memory? Do you have an experience in the past where sharing your perspective has been difficult or not well received? Um, because a lot of these. These fears, especially around con conflict, have come from some past experience where, um, it hasn't gone very well and our nervous system just encodes that and, and sticks with it. Um, and we can kind of talk through, well, well now you're in a different setting, you're in a different experience. How do you want this one to go and kind of map out what that, that looks like? Um. But I would, would advise folks to think about this, just like we were talking about visualization as practice. Sometimes you have to do that work on your own before you go into that conflict, uh, or that difficult conversation. and building that kind of mindful awareness starts to map out what happens in my inner life in these situations, and maybe why is that that happening? And then from there, what choice do I wanna make in how I inhabit, um, this space and this conversation?

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 20:02

And what's the reasoning of identifying where it is in your body? Like what do you do with that? Is that just, oh, it's in, I get tightened my shoulders, and then what?

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 20:11

Yeah, well I lot uh, in the, the western working world, we spend so much time in our heads and we often try to solve all of our problems. And there's a lot of wisdom stored in the body. And so just bringing our awareness into those spaces often recognizes, helps us recognize patterns that these things that we thought were unrelated are actually, um, very similar. Um, and then we have some of those tools we can go back to physiologically around the breath or around really grounding our, our bodies in this space and time. So feeling your feet on the floor. Um, taking a slow gaze around the room around you, all of these things can kinda lower the threat level that's perceived in our, our nervous system. Um, so building that awareness of what happens and where do I hold this tension conflict in my body, and then how can I. Reground myself to the space using these very physical, embodied and, and sensory, uh, tools can then start to calm those racing thoughts as well. Um, but there's a lot of integration between our, our thinking mind and our embodied experience that in our, uh, in the west and especially in the, the working kind of corporate world, uh, we don't tend to our bodies at all. We're sitting in front of a screen and a chair. I can think this myself. Problem. Exactly.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 21:33

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then, uh, I like the grounding one. I like feet planted. Like literally where are your feet? And I, the gaze of the horizon, uh, is an interesting one. Any other, like, when people hear like, oh yeah, how do I lower the threat response if I, my body is acting like I'm being attacked when it's like, look, this is a conversation. Maybe it's a tough one, an uncomfortable one, but it's part of the job and it was fine. I'm gonna survive. I will live through this, like, we're on Zoom, nothing's gonna physically happen to me.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 22:02

Mm-hmm.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 22:03

what are some other things to practice beforehand, afterward, during, just to kind of lower the, the threat like response that you get, those situations? I.

Body Based Calming Tools

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 22:16

Yeah. Well, let me, let's just. Pause for a second and appreciate what you just said too, of like, nothing's going to happen. Um, I'm safe, it's on Zoom, whatever. Uh, remembering that fact can be helpful. Um, but also remembering that our bodies and our biology are, uh, have evolved so that these moments of seemingly like see, uh, these moments where it seems like. Perhaps we may be excluded, cast out, um, not belonging in a space. And difficult conversations can, can trigger some of those feelings. Um, have evolved for a reason. Like to not be in a tribe. To not be in a community was an existential threat to our ancestors. So there's a hardwired response totally natural. And as much as we like to. that experience and just wanna be calm and centered all the time. I think a huge part of this is just accepting, Hey, this is how my body works and this is natural, it's normal. Other people experience this too. Um, and just normalizing that that experience and acceptance can be one way of beginning to move through it as well. but to your question of what are some other physical practices, um. ice, our eyesight is really tied to that sympathetic and

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 23:32

Hmm.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 23:33

nervous system. So, um, you'll notice in that fight or flight mode, you kind of have tunnel vision in your, your eyesight narrows. So just taking a moment and seeing if you can take in the, the peripheral vision, the, the ceiling and the, the walls around you, while just gently staring ahead and kinda widening that gaze to, to really, um, see more of the environment around you. Can start to shift our, our nervous systems as well. Um. Physical contact, uh, with, with others. Um, hugs, uh, fives, handshakes, all those things can be helpful. Um, and even this is, may not be always applicable in, in the middle of a meeting, but if you have a chance to go to the bathroom and go back to your office, uh, just putting your hands over your heart in that chest area, um, can stimulate some of the same nerve endings, uh, that a hug and, um. Kind of mimicking a, a hug experience, and that can have, uh, a soothing, calming effect on our bodies as well. Um, so those are a couple more tools that, that might be in, in your toolkit, uh, for how to downregulate in those, those pressure filled moments using the body. Yeah.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 24:45

So it sounds like literally widening your perspective. And then go outside and hug the first person you see in the hallway.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 24:56

Yeah.

Reframing Threat as Safety

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 24:57

Appropriate? Yeah. Otherwise, just put your hands on your heart. Benjamin said I could hug you and now I'm in the HR office. No. Um, make sure it's appropriate. Hug, but yeah, no, like, uh, I appreciate what you said about the, the tribe, um, you know, being kicked outta the tribe. Was was survival. You could die if you were without that. And our body is still wired that way in a lot of senses. I remember when I would go to some board meetings, my body would react like, okay, we're gonna have a whole bunch of people with spears like about ready to like. Throw their spirit at you. And I was like, and I couldn't breathe and I got my voice, got all quivered and I was like, what is happening? Like this is the weirdest thing. Like it's a, in my work world, this is a fairly quote unquote important meeting, but it's definitely not life or death. Um, and it took me a lot of time to figure out like what you've been saying, which is like, this is just how your body responds. Almost expect it in a weird way. Not in like an anxiety inducing way, but just this happens and Oh yeah, there's that thing. Okay. And continue. And I'm safe. I'm safe. It's all good. I'm safe. Thank you, brain. I'm safe. And I, that's what I was, I'm safe. That's what I would say internally and that would kind of calm me down. Oh yeah. This is fine. You're fine. I'm safe. So,

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 26:18

Absolutely.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 26:20

yeah.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 26:20

is part of the, the beauty of our, our contemplative traditions. Um, where I think they, they again, kinda intersect in the performance world is that compassion is a huge piece of, of this work. Compassion for ourselves and, and compassion for others. And in these. Kind of high performance spaces. We don't usually think about compassion, we think about serious, cutthroat, competitive, right? Um, but to really be able to make those subtle shifts internally to notice what's happening, um, within, within myself and be able to, to kind of flow with it, rather than push against it, is to be compassionate, to recognize, Hey, this is normal, this is natural. Um, and then how can I, can I go move, move toward, or move. Alongside it. Um, and that's the, the part of our, our contemplative traditions that I, I really love is this ability to hold multiple things at once and to recognize I can be fearful and courageous at the same time. I can, you know, be going through suffering and find joy at the same time. Um, I can have this meeting where I need to be firm and tough. Um, but also gentle and kind at the same time. Um, and that, that's one of the capacities that's available to us, um, if we, we choose to, to lean into that.

Beyond Self Improvement Mindfulness

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 27:37

There's different layers and textures to life and interactions and relationships, and that's kind of what makes life interesting a lot of the time.'cause it was all one way. It'd be, it would be. Kind of boring. Um, so you have mentioned in your body of work that hey, like the 1% better, like sometimes you get 1% better, but if you're not a novice anymore, you might not get 1% better, and that's okay as long as you're progressing. You've mentioned, hey, when meditation and mindfulness maybe doesn't work, or journaling doesn't work, like then what do you do? What's kind of the next level type of work that you do with people?

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 28:15

Yeah, well we've been talking, we're, we've been talking around this in, in much of the conversation here, but really de developing that sense of non-judgmental awareness of the present moment. And that, uh, that is tough. I think even in, um, kind of the mindfulness space or the journaling and self-help space, we do it because we want to get 1% better. We wanna see this improvement over time. and I think there's a lot of, uh. There's a beautiful desire behind that too, to, to be growing, to be developing, um, to be exploring the, our edges. And I think that's, that's necessary. Um, and I think it needs to be balanced out with what is it like to just be right here and right now, and what happens if you don't need to improve? Or change. Um, what if you're enough as you are? And that can be a really radical, uh, way of, of showing up in the world, but it unlocks a lot more freedom because like we were talking earlier, um, you're not bound to what other people need you to be. You get to choose how you wanna show up. Um, so, so some of the work I do with, with folks who have tried mindfulness, they've tried journaling and haven't really, um, found their way in that, that, that work yet. Uh, I, I found a lot of that time. A lot of the time it's because they're expecting to get somewhere with it or they're expecting, um, a certain outcome, um, or they feel like they should be doing it because other people are doing it. And so there's all of this judgment wrapped up behind it and these expectations of, of who they should be, um, when really kinda at the essence mindfulness, um, from our spiritual traditions is just noticing. Um, and in a culture that demands more and more out of us, um, and demands this kind of. Projection into the future of plans and goals and optimization. That's really counter-cultural. And so it's hard to start to let go of some of that, that work, um, or some of, uh. Some, some of those expectations. So starting to just gently be, bring some curious and, and compassionate awareness to the fact that we even have those expectations, um, is, is part of, part of this work towards unlocking, um, more of a true sense of, of self. Um, and that's, that's kind of the work that I do with. With athletes, with executives is help them, um, both perform at their best, but also feel whole again. And I think high performance spaces often divide people where they're outwardly successful, but inwardly handling anxiety, exhaustion, uncertainty, because it's always onto the next thing and how do I get better? Um, so what it would it be like to feel wholeness that you're just you as you are? And still have access to all of your skills and be able to perform at a high level. And that kind of combination of things, I think is for me, what true and kind of elite high performance look like. Um, yeah. So that's, that's the work that I hope people, um, into and, and understand about themselves.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 31:29

And you mentioned the whole person, which is very rare. I've done a number of these podcast episodes now, and that hasn't come up in the way you just mentioned it. To come at this a different way off of what you just said. Um, the whole person, what is, what is. A life well lived in your opinion.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 31:52

Well, that's the question I always ask other people. So, um, because I don't think there is one and true pure, uh, definition or, or explanation for what a life well it lived is. Um, but for my work with high performers and, and for my own life, holding the questions themselves. Is part of the process. So I could rattle off a number of things that I think go into a life well lived, and we've talked about them here a little bit. That sense of wholeness, community and belonging, being in the present moment, finding joy, being able to hold suffering and grief alongside, um. Everything else. Uh, those are some markers for me of what a, a life well lived looks like. Um, really living fully alive. Uh, but I think the thing that I love about that question and and holding questions is that it holds space for mystery and for discovery and for long term, um, growing into ourselves that there's no kind of end to this. of, of being human, um, until our last breath. And so, uh, I like to frame things in terms of questions because. It also shows how I grow and change over time. Um, and that there is no quote unquote right way or, or a singular path. Um, so questions like what does it mean to be human and what is a life well lived are, are some of the ways that, uh, I think we can open ourselves up. To possibilities that maybe we didn't know were even available to us and invite in a little bit more curiosity. Um, so that's, that's one of the reasons I, I love that question and I appreciate you asking me that too.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 33:34

Well, I love just holding the questions and asking yourself, so I've done this not with that particular question, although I will add it to my. List of questions I ask myself on a regular basis, but I always, I always used to say like, um, I wanna be successful. Like, that was my buzzword and I wanna be successful. I was like, okay, like how would you know if you're successful? I'm like, well, these, these, these, and it used to be external achievements and you know, this comp and this title and this whatever, and. Then something like broke off and I was like, oh wait. Oh wait. I can, I kind of don't want those things anymore. I don't want those things in the same way anymore. And then I was like, no, I want. These things, success is over here. And I was like, whoa. That just shifted. And just that realization of like, oh, my definition of success has changed, was very, um, it was unsettling in a way, but it was very enlightening where it's like, oh, actually no, my literal, like what I'm going after has changed and I need to focus over here now. So I think in the same vein, like what is a life well lived? Uh, like how do you know if you're doing good at being human? Like, uh, a good eye is one that sees, well, like an ear is one that hear like, what is a good human? And that's just, you know, an endless question. Right? But holding that in front of us on a regular basis is definitely worthwhile. Is that?

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 34:54

And see, I love what you just shared there too, because this is, this is the essence of, of the work that I do with folks. We start on the performance questions, right. Of like, I wanna be successful. Okay. Well, before we start to dive into like how you can, you know, optimize your, your mind to be at peak focus and be successful, why, like, what, what does success look like? Um, and for me, sometimes this looks like a, a, a practice I do every, every few months where I'll just. Pull out a new piece of paper and just write at the top, like, what do I want? just start journaling free writing, seeing what comes up. And often it surprises me. Um, sure there's the kinda surface level things that, oh, I'd like this to have some more stability and, and feel, uh, you know, like. I, I'm moving in a direction and there's, there's money in the bank and et cetera. Um, but what do I, what do I deeply want? And this is where we can come back to that embodied wisdom we were talking about earlier, because our bodies know. And you might notice just like that. Oh, like the sigh or your shoulders start to shrug down a little bit, um, your heart to open up a little bit more. When you really nail that thing that, that you really want, and often like you're pointing to, it's not something external. It's a sense of peace. Um, it's a sense of satisfaction. It's a sense of connection with loved ones. and there's so many ways to get at those ex internal experiences externally. Um, but if we're just chasing the external thing, we never know what that's like for us or what we really want inside. Um, hence often the exhaustion, burnout and anxiety of, of seeking those things outside of ourselves. so yes, I appreciate that, that question of what does success look like? And then we can figure out, um, where do we go from there? Once we can, we really narrow down. who do you wanna be and, and where do you wanna wanna go on that deep level?

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 36:47

Yeah, it's so interesting. I mean, my current working title, definition of Success is, and I paraphrase part of this from uh, John Wooden, who was a great basketball coach, and it like success is the peace of mind, knowing that you put forth the effort. To do all you could, everything in your ability to become who you're supposed to become. And I'm like, man, that's, that resonates with me at this chapter in my life. Like, okay, am I putting forth the effort to do, to get the reps in, to build the practice, to do all these things, to build this body of work, of me as a human and me as a life that is close to what I think a good human is? So that's,

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 37:32

absolutely.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 37:33

interesting.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 37:33

many, as you've said, there's so many ways of interpreting what is, what is good human and, um, what is the life that you're called to live. Um, and that's why it's, it's very personal. And yet we also need community to help us navigate those questions and, and hold ourselves in those times of discernment and, and questioning and, and meaning making.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 37:55

And the other thing I love that you said is the wholeness piece where your internal experience and, and who you are internally and the external, sometimes persona and facade people put on is there's an ocean between the two. And so they feel so disconnected from themselves and it's, you know, I, I've felt that a little bit in my career and all these things. I'm sure. Other people kind of with the more public persona might feel it even more. But I think bringing those things a little closer together, where if they're one for one, you would just, you would be you all the time. And that would just be so refreshing and light and freeing. And that's something that I am thinking about more and more, um, in this stage of my life as well.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 38:39

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think I've, I've worked at, um, worked with people at different stages of life, and you see when these questions emerge, uh, sometimes it, it's, it really varies. for each person when and and where. Um, but often it's through crisis and it's through dramatic change, loss of a loved one or loss of a career, um, that all of a sudden that light bulb goes on and it's like, oh, how, how do I wanna be living? Do I wanna be doing this thing? Um, and my hope is to start to ask those questions earlier. So that we can be living in alignment before those, those dramatic life events happen. Um, and so we can be at our best, um, in, in these moments where we we're just kind of gritting through and, and really grinding, but it doesn't feel fully alive. Um, because I think when we're not fully alive, it, it's stymies some of our, our gifts, our our skills, um, from a performance science standpoint, um, when we're tight and, and closed off. It doesn't allow us full access to creativity, to innovation, um, on the, the field that doesn't. It, it tightens our muscles, so we literally don't have a full range of motion. Um, so the more aligned we can be with that, that authentic whole version of ourselves, the more skills and capabilities we have at our disposal as well.

Play Joy and Closing

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 39:59

Love that. Love that. Um, Benjamin, anything else that we haven't covered that you just are dying for people to know, like you've gotta know about this, anything else that you wanna tell folks or get out there to folks?

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 40:17

Um. Well, I'm really loving this conversation in this time with you, Emily. Um, one of the things that I think maybe is, is a take home or, or a thing folks can take with them is sometimes it feels like we have to add another thing to do. Like we've been talking about this inner work and it's like, oh shoot, now I have to go. Work on myself to then, uh, be better at my job or be better at my relationship or, or whatnot. And we just kind of stack a, a very full life already. Um, and one of the invitations going back to our, our contemplative traditions that I, I love, um, is this. and this lightness. And, David a Benedictine monk says that joy is the happiness that doesn't depend on what happens.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 41:06

Ah.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 41:07

I love that quote because it kind of releases the, we gotta, we gotta get somewhere to be happy, or this thing has to happen for us to be happy. is here right now. If we can open our eyes. Um, and one of the ways into joy is through play and, and play is for me doing something for its own sake. And if you pause and just think about your life think about all the things you do in a day, you might notice that there's no spot in that day where you're actually doing something just for the sake of. Doing it because you enjoy it because it brings pleasure. Um, so that's maybe the invitation I would leave folks with is find those spaces of play. And it may be as simple as pulling out a puzzle, maybe just going for a walk with no podcast in no phone call. enjoying the sun and the, the nature around you. Um, and maybe taking time to actually play with your kid. I know I've talked to a lot of parents who are like, play becomes work as a parent, but just to pause and, and really enjoy that, that space, um, in the athletic space that can. That is often work, um, and not play. And so can we actually, um, bring that spirit of, of, uh, aliveness and, and ease and um, and pleasure to it. So, um, rather than do more, I would maybe encourage people to, to find the space, just to do something for its own sake, um, that brings you pleasure, brings you back into the present moment and reminds you of. Of who you are. Um, what are you like when you are alive, flourishing, and, and well, um, and just pausing a couple times a day or during the week for a little bit of extended time, um, to sit into that play and then to the joy, um, that's always there. That doesn't depend on, on what happens as Senator Ross says.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 43:05

I love that quote. I'm taking that quote to the bank, and I love that you, that you described, um, the play and the light aspect, and I just wanna say I, I am more open to receiving. Those types of things. Now, had you said that to me 10 years ago, but like, I don't have time to play. Like, who else? I like, where's my calendar? Blah, blah, blah, blah. So if you're listening to this, you're like, mm-hmm. I like, yeah, that's what you're supposed to say. And like, Benjamin's great, blah, blah. Um, he seems grounded and whatever. But I like, I, I, I can't actually do that. I. I would just offer that we live in a culture where we're surrounded. You are surrounded by go hustle, grind, outwork, optimize. Like all this stuff is just signal, signal ding all the time. And part of it can be towards a good purpose, but a lot of it, a lot of it, if you stop and like just go for like, if you stop, it's part, like part of it's fake. A lot of it's fake. And to get to the real stuff of like, Hey, I'm a human standing on earth, on a little ball, flying through space, like what's real? Like what is actually real and meaningful are in the things that you just mentioned.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 44:19

Mm-hmm.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 44:20

And for a while I was so closed off to that stuff. So I just wanted to kind of give that, give that PSA for people who might be like, Nope, next. Like, eh, just just be open to it. Just be open.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 44:30

Yeah. Uh, yeah, I think listen to the resistance. Listen to the part of you that's really concerned of what would happen if I play. And just be curious about the, the answer to that question, like, what, where would you feel like you'd fall behind? Or what's the fear behind that? And gr give that some compassion and grace. And gentleness. Um, and then to the, to your point too, and to put a very fine point on it, um, there's like, some calculations say that we have on average 4,000 weeks alive on this earth. And so what do you wanna be doing with that limited time? And that's. That's a big question. Um, but as Mary Oliver says, what do you wanna do with this one wild and precious life? How do you wanna live it? and, and so you can hold that resistance and that, uh, fear and, and, and perhaps confusion alongside the choice that, that you get to make What make of this what you want to.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 45:26

What do you wanna make of this one wonderful life you get to have? And if you want to speak to Benjamin more about that or anything else you've heard, Benjamin, what is the best place? Where's the best place for people to find you?

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 45:39

Uh, sure. You can go to my website, which is ww dot inner life of sport.com, um, and also writing more on Substack. I've got a piece on, on time and what feels like, uh, a lack of time and, and. Maybe how that shows up more as a mental construct than a lived reality. Um, and also a piece on Sabbath and rest and some of these topics of play that we've been discussing. Um, but if people are looking for some of the, the peak performance tools aligned with that sense of wholeness and, and wellbeing, uh, in conversation. Um, going to my website's a, a great place to start and I'm happy just to have a conversation, see where you're at and, and what would be helpful, um, and, and provide some, some tools and practices, uh, just in an initial call that, that would be helpful and that you can take away. So, really excited to, uh, be a part of, of your community, Emily, and, and be able to share and, and have this conversation with you this afternoon.

emily-sander_1_03-26-2026_123340 46:39

Beautiful. Thank you Benjamin. Appreciate it. We'll have all of that information in the show notes and uh, Benjamin thank you once again.

benjamin-smith--he-him-_1_03-26-2026_123340 46:47

Thank you.

46:50

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