Leveraging Leadership
Leadership is messy. Most advice isn't built for the reality of competing priorities, difficult stakeholders, limited time, and imperfect information.
Leveraging Leadership is a practical leadership podcast for Chiefs of Staff, executives, founders, and senior operators who want to lead more effectively and navigate complexity with confidence.
Hosted by Emily Sander, former Chief of Staff and executive advisor, each episode delivers real-world lessons, practical frameworks, and candid conversations with leaders across business and beyond.
Topics include executive communication, leadership presence, decision-making, delegation, organizational influence, operating rhythms, team effectiveness, and the often-unspoken challenges leaders face behind the scenes.
If you're looking for thoughtful conversations, practical takeaways, and leadership advice you can actually use on Monday morning, you're in the right place.
Leveraging Leadership
Driving Fast-Paced Change from Private Sector to Public Innovation
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Emily Sander talks with Lindsay McCleary about her journey from project management to Chief of Staff roles in both the private sector at Binc and the public sector for the City of Charlotte. Lindsay McCleary shares how she created her own job description, built trust with leaders, and tackled challenges like internal communication and supporting a fast-growing city. She offers practical advice for Chiefs of Staff, like moving from note-taker to strategic leader and building strong relationships with principals.
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Who Am I?
If we haven’t met before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want.
Welcome back to Leveraging Leadership, where we unpack the art of business leadership. I'm your host, Emily Sander, chief of staff to an executive leadership coach. This show is all about finding your points of greatest influence and leveraging them to better serve those around you.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710My guest today is Lindsey McCleary, and she is the chief of staff to the office of the CIO for the city of Charlotte. And she and I first connected, Lindsey, when you were chief of staff for Binch, and you were doing a whole bunch of fast-moving private company team stuff, and now you're, uh, very much in the public sector and a much different pace to things and much different outlook to your current role. We'll talk all about that, but welcome to the show.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Thank you.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710can you just tell folks a little bit about your background and journey to your first chief of staff job? Mm.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Yeah. Sure, sure. So started my career as a project manager, worked in that capacity for many, many years, uh, did all the certifications, worked my way up in different organizations, and then found myself at Bing.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Oh,
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Um, I had eight years there. So at the very beginning of those eight years, I was working in a project management capacity. They didn't have that function on their team.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710yeah.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710And so I was the first project manager, and then built the project management office, and then expanded that to the operations team, and then expanded my role within that as the chief of staff. So that took many years to do all of those things, but it started with very humble roots as project management, and I'm sure a lot of people in the chief of staff role maybe start as project managers, um, and just grew into that based on the need that the business had at the time.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710And was that you initiating the, "Hey, I think we need a chief of staff," or was that someone tapping you on the shoulder saying, "Hey, can you please be our chief of staff?"
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710That, that was a combination. I, I need to think more about which happened first. Um, but my, my boss and our CEO of Bing was always thinking of innovative ways to change the way that we were operating or working and presenting ourselves to the market. She's a very visionary, uh, creative thinker. And so I think in her circles she knew that chief of staff... She had heard things like, "Hiring a chief of staff transformed my
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Okay.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Like the headline of that. So I think the buzzword chief of staff was in her head and was in the circles that she was in. also, in a good way, find problems in the organizations and structures that I am in. And so I think while I was identifying gaps or opportunities, if we don't wanna call them problems, at the same time was hearing what she was hearing on her end. So it's almost like two worlds collided,
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Yeah.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710and it was like the moment to make that
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710A moment and the chief of staff role came out of that. So cool.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710right
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710were you doing as chief of staff at, uh... And this is relatively small. Is that a fair kind of assessment?
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Yeah. Yeah. It was a, it was a boutique. It is a boutique, um, agency. I don't work there anymore, but, um, it's still thriving, and it's a boutique agency serving clients from coast to coast. So... And, and a variety of clients. So I think what was unique about the chief of staff role there was that it wasn't just back of the house impact, it was also front of the house impact. So it was streamlining the way we work as a way to improve quality of what we did for our clients. So I really liked that part of it. The other part was being the right hand to the CEO. You know, she's so busy. She is very, um, client facing. She is public facing. She was constantly doing all sorts of things where she needed eyes and ears, um, within the organization while she was out promoting our services and selling and building those client relationships. So it was also being her right hand at the same time, which I loved. I, I... It was my favorite, it was my favorite role
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710I've heard so many people in your similar situation where the CEO or founder is off doing the public-facing things, the face of the company, the conferences, all the fundraising, and they're basically like, "Here are the keys to the kingdom. I need you to run things." And, and they're basically a de facto president GM with the chief of staff title.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710That's exactly right. That's exactly what it was. And it was, I think, extremely effective because I kept noticing that she had limited time,
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710That's
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710and as someone with a project management and operations background, I wanted her to be as efficient as possible. And so that just meant needing her to, like you said, give me the keys to the kingdom so that she could go off and do those other things to grow the business and
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710awesome. And
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710very effective in that way. Um, yeah. It just, it also just requires much trust, and I'm so grateful that she had so much trust in me to do that. You know, after working there for several years, we had built a really nice rapport, and that trust was there. And so it was really seamless.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710of known your work and worked with you, it sounded like, in your project management capacity. Okay. So you were a known quantity, which is always helpful in-
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710I was. Which I, I don't know, I feel like that's, that's the way to do it from both sides. I think that this... I mean, it would-- I'm sure people get the chief of staff role just from applying to it as an outsider, but I do think there's something to be said for the person stepping into the role as well as the leader who needs the role of like, are we gonna
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Yeah.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Like, is this going to work? Do we speak the same language? Do we have the complementary skills that are needed? Is that Venn diagram there or not? And I th- and it was, it was there for for her
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Love it. Yeah, it's, it's an interesting question because I've known chiefs of staff who have done a cold application and gotten the role, and that's great, and then they have this huge ramp-up period where it's like, "Okay, I gotta learn everything, soup to nuts,"
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Yeah
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710the principle, the company, the teams, the customers, the internal platform services. So all of those things are doable, but it's-- can be a uphill climb, whereas even if you have that little bit of familiarity where it's like, "Oh, I worked with you in that capacity. This is a brand new capacity, but I kind of know what I'm working with here," that can be, that can be a step in the right direction.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Yeah, I think
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710can you talk a little bit about the pace? So I've worked w- in startups, and I've worked in small to medium businesses where it's like people are wearing multiple hats. People are doing what it takes to get things done. It's pretty much go, go, go and, and cover a whole bunch of different things. Right. And, um, I just wanted to get your, like, get the gist of how things were running and the pace you were living at at your first chief of staff role.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Yeah. Fast. Um, because we-- the, the role came during a time when we were repositioning ourselves in the marketplace, and so we were going to more of a vertical, um, away from a horizontal. And so that was a big change, um, that required, um, all of the leadership team's attention. so it was this balance of continuing to deliver to the current client base and the current accounts that we had, while also trying to market ourselves in a different way to better position in this new vertical that we were establishing ourselves in. So that made it a very fast pace. Um, the conditions were right for fast pace. And also, I mentioned before, our, our CEO and fearless leader was a very visionary thinker, innovative. She was, she was moving quickly. She was getting new ideas, and they were coming into the organization, to the leadership team, and we were sifting through those and figuring out, "Yeah, what can we implement now? How agile can we be without being, you know, disruptive?" And so it was very fun. Um, I enjoyed the fast-paced nature of
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Okay. Very cool. Okay, so that's a little bit of where you came from in your first chief of staff role. Talk us through your transition to your second chief of staff role.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710To local government.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710natural, the natural segue, of course.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710That's exactly right. So my role-- Let's... Okay, let's start at the beginning. So y- you can tell from what I've said before, I have a love affair with BINC. I worked there for eight years. Uh, it was home and, um, everyone there is like family to me. It was a very lovely environment. It was small and it was national, and I was really seeking a little bit more community impact type work, having more roots in Charlotte. I've lived here for 14 years. Love living here, but working fully remote for a small organization that served national clients, it just-- I wa- I was yearning for a little bit more homegrown
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Yeah.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710So that is kind of the why for the shift from a small, uh, private sector business to local government. And also, the leader that I knew of at the City of Charlotte had that same innovative, creative energy that the founder of my previous, or the CEO of my previous company had, and I was really attracted to that. She wanted to move quickly within local government. She wanted to be a driver of innovation, and she was looking for a leader that could step in and run from day one and help her move and shake and make those things happen. So I kind of drank that Kool-Aid and was bought into the idea that, yeah, I'm gonna go into local government, and I understand the stigma of that and, um, it appears to be slower, but this leader is different and wants to drive. I mean, it's just like the classic you, you join a job and also leave the job because of your manager. Like, it really rings true. I joined the City of Charlotte to work for this woman, and couldn't be happier
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710is this the one where in your job search you kind of flipped the script on...
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710That's
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Okay, so tell us, tell us about that.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710So all I knew was that she was looking for a leader, and I was like, "Okay, I think that's me. I think I'm a leader. Um, what am I looking for?" And so I-- like I said, it wasn't that I was looking for local government or I wasn't looking for a specific, uh, job. I was, I... Excuse me, a specific company. I was looking for a specific next step. So I was chief of staff in a small organization, so the next step for me was being a chief of staff in a larger organization. Um, so I drafted my job description of what my ideal next job would be. And so she says, "I'm looking for a leader." And I say, "Well, I'm looking for this type of leadership role, and if that's what you're looking for too, fantastic. And if you're not, that's okay too. Go get the leader that you want." so it ended up working out that the type of leader I wanted to be and the type of responsibilities I wanted was going to fulfill that need, um, you know, plus a little bit. so that's, that's kind of where that partnership started.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710I love that, and I think, listeners, she wrote her own job description. "This is what I'm looking for." That's so helpful because a lot of people, are like, "I think I want a chief of staff. I think I might need someone with project management. I think I might need a little of this, a little of that, and I'm gonna try to morph this thing into something." And if someone goes, "Boom, here you go.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Yeah
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Here's what I do." "Oh, that's what I want." So I love, love, love. I just wanted to get that story out there 'cause I love it.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710No, I do too, and I think it all, I didn't start as chief of staff. I mean, I had to join in a position that was open, of course. So there's all sorts of restrictions with that. But I think what we don't talk about enough is, like, get aligned with that leader and build that trust over time, and know that you're both working toward the same goal.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710For
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710but we worked to get there. And during that time, we were both able to learn each other too, and I was able to get to know her leader, which is the CIO, and, um, help understand what all of our shared goals are and where we're going, and how this role can help and why it needs to be there. So it's like you get your foot in the door with what you wanna do, and then you make the business case once you're in the door for why it needs to be this next thing and a more formalized chief of staff role. So I got the leadership position I wanted and then was able to morph it into exactly what I wanted.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710aren't as familiar with local government, can you just zoom out and say, okay, City of Charlotte, what is the purpose of that, and where does your remit fit into that?
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Yeah. So I think what's really unique about our CIO is that, so he is a CIO over the INT department, several hundred employees that service both internal employees and all of the technology they use. So there's 22 departments across the city of Charlotte, and, um, our IT team, provides the technology for all of them. So fire, police, as well as residential-facing applications, as well as making sure your laptop and your phone work. You know, it's the whole breadth of the departments that service the city. So there's this very important internal component, and then there's also the resident-facing component. one example, which is very specific but very relevant, is if I had a bulky trash item at my home that I needed someone to pick up, I would use a resident-facing application on my phone to schedule that pickup.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Oh.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710So we have the both/and, the internal and the external, which for me has a lot of parallels for what I was doing at BINC as well. I had that internal component, but also that external impact, and that to me is what keeps things very exciting
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Wow. So when you say department, I'm usually thinking like operations and product, but you're like fire department, police department, residential.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710is a
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Wow.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Fire is a department.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Okay.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710exactly
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710And what kind of tools and applications are you providing for those folks? Like the trash example and then, um, what else would be under your remit?
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Well, so the trash example was more of like a resident-facing application. Um, sticking with residents, something else that the City of Charlotte did through the Access Charlotte program, which was a grant-funded program, provided internet access, um, to thousands of residents, um, through COVID relief funding. So there's a lot of external impacts from that perspective. We're also, um, responsible for the Learn to Earn grant, which is a local grant that provides, um, digital devices to underserved communities so that we can close the digital divide and help upskill digital literacy across our residents. So that, that piece there, um, is where I think this chief of staff role becomes so critical because it's helping to, um, educate and promote and, um, really connect the dots between this is how we run an operation-- like how we operationalize IT, and also this is how we serve, um, our customers, which is the residents.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710So you have these internal departments, so to say, and then your customers as residents, and I think of chiefs of staff in a growing company, and you have a growing city, so is that similar in terms of we have to scale and we have to say, "What do our new customers need and want?"
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710percent. Yeah, 152 people are moving to Charlotte every single day.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Okay.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710It is a rapidly growing city, and a lot of changes are happening all the time. So yes. That's why positioning ourselves as innovators and the ones that are driving this change forward for the city is so important. So a lot of what I do now is facilitate these cross-sector partnerships I mean, we're a banking city, so all the banks around us and/or the sports
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Oh, yes.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710the Panthers, we've got the Hornets. How can we all come together to drive innovation and collectively benefit from and serve all of the people that are moving here and how rapidly our city is growing?
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Wow. Okay. And you've said, I work for the City of Charlotte, and the part of that I work at is very fast-paced, and it,
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Mm-hmm.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710it would be." And I think in previous conversations you've described your boss as a disruptor, which is innovative disruptor. So I'm like, okay, so tell me a little bit about how that works within the ecosystem of local government.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Yeah, I think a lot of what I hear from her and from her leadership is this like let's keep pushing for yes. You know, let's not just take the first no, but let's dig a little bit deeper and figure out, well, why is it no? Like, what problem are we trying to solve, and how can we work together to get there? So a lot of that disruption is the breaking down of silos across all of those many departments that we talked about. She's the chief data and analytics officer and the deputy CIO, so a lot of her work is making sure that we're sharing that data. And it's, it's open anyway, so why is it not open to all of the other departments? And making sure we're not just sharing it, but we're leveraging it to make smart decisions. So that's an example of disruption.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710it's so funny that so many companies have information or knowledge or data, and it just sits somewhere, and some of the teams or stakeholders that need it or could action it or make better decisions off of it don't have access to it, or it's not distributed to them. So just, I mean, we kinda talk about like it's a simple thing, like, you know, getting the data to everyone, but it's not.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Exactly
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710okay. Gotcha. And who, like w- who comprises the office of the CIO? of business units?
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710question. Yeah, that's a, that's a newly formed group. So, um, our structure is there's the CIO, and then we have customer experience, and then we have security, and then we have the office of
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Okay.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710And so when we break down the office of the CIO, we think about who is going to run the business. So that's my team. So underneath me, we have change management, we have innovation and data, we have, uh, finance and strategy, budget and strategy, and then we have procurement. So those are the systems that are running the office of the CIO. Then, um, one of my colleagues is governing that. So how do we govern the business? So strategy and business and enterprise architecture working together. And then the third piece is transforming the business, and that is, um, an AI leader, strategic leader. So those three parts are what make up the office of the CIO
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710you imagine getting 152 more customers each day, that's,
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Exactly.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710clip. Holy cow.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Yeah, I mean, Charlotte Airport is one of the busiest airsp- airports, and the airport is one of those 22 departments that I mentioned to you.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710I-- Oh, wow.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710yeah,
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Okay.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710lot going
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710I have been in and out of that airport all the time. It's, it's got lots of, uh, yeah, transfers and layovers, and I got stuck there once for hurricane and knu- knuckled down there for a while, but- Yeah.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710you really?
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Oh, yeah.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710that happens, call
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Hurricane Fiona. I will, yeah, Hurricane Fiona. I was like, "Okay." It's like, we're not going anywhere 'cause that is thunder and lightning and hurricane gale winds. So,
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710It's so busy.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710we,
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710so
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710we stuck. very cool. What did you learn from working at BINC in this kind of private, fast-paced piece to, uh, the innovative side of City of Charlotte, but still it's a little bit different structure and a little bit different setup. Um, how did... What did you learn? What did you transfer over?
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710All of my friends and people at Bank taught me so much about engagement and communication. That was not my field, um, coming into that role, and that is their expertise. I am grateful for that learning every single day. It's, like, amazing how you can get plopped down into a new organization and a lot of the same problems exist. Are we properly cascading information down and across the organization? Probably not. Are people feeling connected to and aware of the vision, the mission, the values of that organization? Um, and, and how are we reinforcing all of those key messages? All of that is just immensely valuable to have deep knowledge of how to do it, ha- and then being able to operationalize the streamlining of communication, knowing where to look for what. And I don't just mean from, like,
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Yeah. Yeah.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710like, the office of the CIO is doing now, bi-monthly, every other month, town halls. I know what to expect now from a town hall now that we've established that cadence. I know we're going to have them. I know who we're gonna hear from and what's gonna be there. I know that they're gonna ask for my feedback after the town hall, and I'm building trust by actually incorporating that feedback into the next one.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Hmm.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710It's similar with a newsletter as well. It's a monthly newsletter, and then you don't send it out and someone's like, "Why didn't that come out? Does that mean something's wrong? Does that mean there was nothing to celebrate?" And then the panic starts And it's like you can prevent that panic by having that consistency and building that over time. And then, like I said, that builds trust over time as well. And I think all of those lessons in proper, good, um, effective communication have stayed with me and I'll hold onto the rest of my career because they're just desperately needed, especially as the communication landscape is changing. It's w- what are we texting people? What are we emailing them? Are, are they even in front of a phone or a computer? Like, how are we actually reaching this workforce? As you can imagine, a city workforce is extremely diverse. I mean, we have our, what we call CDOT, but our Department of Transportation out in the field, as well as solid waste services out on the road, well as HR, budget, finance behind their computers. You've got this workforce that is spread out, and you want them to read how many emails or you want them to check Teams how many times? And things are just getting... They get lost. They get lost. And this organization is no different than any other organization in that communication is so critical to help with whatever those particular issues are
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710And especially if you're driving a large vehicle, I don't want you checking your text or email.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710was that.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710and that, and that's your job, so you gotta go out and be in the field. So that's, yeah, that's an interesting, that's an interesting, uh, problem set to solve for. And then I think you're so right. I mean, sometimes when you don't send that newsletter out, people are gonna write their own newsletter in their head
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710That's
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710with their own information.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710they fill in the gaps. That's human
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Yep.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710And I think all of that is immensely useful for leaders of any organization to just be a little bit tuned in to just human behavior and not ignoring that, especially when you're in an INT organization like I am. It's so easy to just think about the technology, and we
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Yes.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710remember the humans behind it. And so I feel like that's what I bring to this
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Bridging it.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710that reminder of the human element of it, thanks to all of my time at Bing, as well as that communication
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710So important. And you've had some great bosses, so you've mentioned a few here, but there were three bosses who really had some, had some good feedback and some good encouragement for you. What was, what was that about?
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710I have been so lucky to have so many amazing bosses and mentors that I still talk to today. I worked for NASCAR before I worked here, and I had a couple very good mentors at that organization, and I've learned so many. I mean, I could write a book about all the brilliant things they said to me that I've just, like, held onto. I probably should put it on a one-pager. but as I've gone through my career and stepped into different leadership roles, one of the things I appreciate most is one of my bosses said that you hire smart people, and then you get out of their way. And I love that so much as you're going through a leadership journey, and I'm sure the chief of staff role is sliced and diced in a lot of different ways. And maybe all the people report into the chief of staff or only portions of the people report into chief of staff. You would know that better than I do. But likely, there are expertise underneath you that you have to help lead, and you might not be well-versed in that. And I just constantly remember, like, yes, just let the experts do what they're there to do. Get out of their way, meaning clear their road blockers, meaning get them the information that they need to do their job, help facilitate the relationships that you need to facilitate so that they are able to be positioned as experts in their area. That's what I mean by smart people and get out of their way. I think it's so good. I've also had, um, I mean, at every organization, my, my previous boss, I love her dearly. and she just was so empathetic, and I feel like I learned empathy from her. I worked in tech and then left tech and then came back to tech. And so because of that kind of industry flip-flop, you notice cultural changes at those different organizations. And I, I do think the organizations that are tech-focused that you're in, they're focused on that. They're focused on the system. They're focused on the tools. That is what they do. So then moving into Binc and learning more about the human, our leader was human, and she exemplified our-- one of our values, which was to be human, and she, just led with that. And I just learned how to see the whole person that you're managing and understand where they're coming from and what their perspective is and all the gifts and talents that they're bringing to the conversation, to a position, to a team. and I just found that to be immensely valuable to just be remember-- be reminded that we are all humans. I feel like we could use that in life
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Yes. Yes. I mean, it sounds so straightforward, but it's hard to do a lot of times, especially
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Totally, 'cause we're busy.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710for...
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710busy. They've got things to do. They have goals to accomplish. They have meetings to run to, and especially when you're in an office and you're just going from conference room to conference room to conference room, it's just like forget that some people need a bio
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Yeah.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710you start a
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Yeah
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710they've been bouncing back and forth. I mean, it's like the little things like that that you're like, "Oh, I just felt seen. Thank you so much. Let me run and go refill my water or whatever it might be so that you can actually show up fully versus frantically. And I think that's what we really want, is we want the whole person to show up and be ready for that discussion, for those decision-making conversations, and not just checking this off their to-do list
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Show up fully, not frantically. That is, that is the quote. That's the highlight takeaway you want from here. But yeah, I mean, we're all humans. We-- humans need food and water and shelter and bio breaks and, and that's what it takes sometimes. And also sometimes humans, uh, haven't slept well that night for whatever reason, and it's just like, "Okay, I'm gonna give all I have, and if I have 70% today, I'm gonna give 100% of my 70%." So that's part of being human sometimes too. But I'm glad you got a front row seat to, to someone who exuded that type of leadership, because when the leader does that and says, "Hey, look, I'm gonna do this as an example,"
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Right
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710take their cues from the leader. "Oh, okay, if she's doing that, then I can, I can show up like this as well."
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710That's exactly right. Yeah, starting calls with icebreakers, you know, just having just a little bit of that conversation before you dive into the work. All those are just like micro reminders of exactly that.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Yeah.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710I also feel really grateful for working in different industries because it's helpful, I think, to be able to understand different cultures and navigate those cultures. Um, so going from sports to going to, you know, e-commerce and retail, to then going to employee engagement and communication, and now back in local govern- not back in, but in local government and tech, um, I think that's just helped me be more adaptable too, um, and aware that different cultures exist and you can change the culture too,
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710yes,
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710which is so empowering
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710can. You can be part of the catalyst for change for the better, which is really... It's kind of intoxicating in a good way when you're like,
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Mm-hmm.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710had a really poor place for people to come to work, and now people look forward to going to work." That's huge. That's changing
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710exactly
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710lives.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710It is intoxicating. That's a good word for
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710is. If you were speaking to, aspiring chief of staff or an existing chief of staff, what advice would you give? anything you would want them to know?
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710establish yourself as early as possible as a strategic leader and an operational leader. Um, I think in smaller organizations you can be tapped to do a lot of the other stuff as well. And some of that is the nature of it, and also it could be really easy to be in rooms and fall into this, like, note-taker, action item kind of corner of the room. And it's like, sit up, forward, and stay in that strategic leader, operational leader role, especially coming from, if you make the transition, from, like, a project management background. 'Cause that's what you do. You're the one that makes sure everything gets everything done as a project manager, so you are capturing the next steps, 'cause you're gonna hold people accountable, and you are making sure things are sequenced the way they're supposed to be. But I think you have to take up space, and that's something that my current leader is helping me with, which I really, really appreciate, of just taking up that space and staying in that strategic leader mindset, versus, like I said, moving back into that corner of doer
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710You know, that reminds me, early, early in my career, we were in these leadership meetings And, um, this one lady named Cassandra was like, "Emily, you need to take up space." And I was like, "What do you mean, like, take up space?" She was like, "Actually physically take up space." So I would sit with,
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Yes. You're
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710kinda like this, or I'll...
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710stretch my arms
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710and I would sit with my co- And like, she was literally like, "Put your arms on the armrest or put your hands, like, on the table and take up space," 'cause that's
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Love that.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710as...
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710That's great
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Yeah. And it's kind of a subconscious thing or whatever, but people responded to it. And I'm, you know, I'm, like, a smallish woman, and so I didn't take up, like, a lot of space. I had to deliberately, "Okay, let me, like, take up space and move my folders and move my cup to establish my space." It sounded, it sounds funny, but I was-- I did it, and people just sat a little differently and spoke a little differently and responded a little bit different. I was like, "Huh, okay." So when you said take up space, I think there's, like, physically taking up space, and then also in your leadership role, like, taking up space as a leader as well.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Totally. Yeah, I think that's great advice, and I think there's a lot of different ways to do it. I also respect deeply the leaders that are out there modeling what that looks like, too. You know, the more of us that do that, the more of us that sit that way, then that's how those ripple effects and those culture changes hap- those culture changes happen. Um, and I think there's some other tactical ways to do it, too. Like, if you're the person that's constantly being told, um, or it's assumed that you're the one that's taking the notes, suggest that you just rotate it around the room. Like, there's no reason why every week a different person can't be the one that takes the notes. This isn't a skill that only women know how to do. Um, men can do it, too. Um, any age can do it. Like, anyone can take notes, so suggest a rotating amount. Like, why is it, why is it yours, if it is yours right now? And if you don't have the resources to have an executive assistant there with you, then pass it around. Share the love. There's all sorts of ways like that that we can kind of disperse those tasks that maybe we accidentally backed ourself into that corner and do. I also really like, and my boss does this currently. You can tell, I just, I love my boss. I loved my last boss. I've been very blessed with amazing, strong women that have taught me so much. Um, I can't stop talking about them. But something that she does is she has an expectation that everyone around the table is gonna share their opinion about what we just talked about. So it's not just like, "Does anyone have any feedback?" Or, "Does anyone have something to say?" It's, "Emily, what do you have to say? did you think about that?" And there's just this ex- we know we're gonna be called on, and we're going to have to speak up. And so it eliminates the loudest person in the
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Yeah.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710getting the attention, and it forces to level up everyone around the table, um, which I think is a beautiful and powerful way to encourage that making yourself bigger. Make yourself louder, too.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Love it. And one thing that's been thematic throughout th-this whole discussion is you've
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Wow
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710found or been found by good bosses. So some of that might have been luck, some of it was intentional, but I think if you're speaking to a chief of staff, I would put a lot of currency and weight in finding that good connection and relationship with your principal. 'Cause as chief of staff, if you are-- if the principal doesn't have your back, that's a really tough spot to be in. And so I think, you know, Lindsay has spoken about some fantastic bosses that she's been fortunate enough to work with. And so I would vet heavily and work on that relationship and invest in that. Um, and I've just
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710100%.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710a whole bunch of good bosses you've had.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Yeah, definitely. And go toward the person that kind of intimidates you a little bit, you know? Because it's like you have a lot to offer them, and they have a lot to offer you. And, like, I just think that exercise that we talked about at the beginning with writing the job description, also came from a point of, like, necessity. Like, I was in such, such a comfortable working environment and relationship, the only way I was going to step out was because it was for the next thing that was right for me. I'm a working mom, which I haven't mentioned. and so having a boss that gets that and understands the need for flexibility is so important. But also selling yourself of what you're gonna be able to add for them and the different skills that you bring to the principle, as you mentioned, is so crucial because it is a two-way
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Oh, yeah.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710100%. And so you have to be able to sell yourself, too, and that's something that don't know if that comes naturally to anyone. It doesn't come naturally to me, but you can do it after some practice and after knowing what you want. Um, and I think that is key, too, 'cause this chief of staff role I think is malleable. I think there's flexibility in it. It doesn't look the same in every organization, or it doesn't have to look the same. So making sure you know what you want from it, not just what they need from it.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Know what you want. Know what you want. It sounds simple, but it gets you far.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710it's actually quite hard, so spend some time
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710it is. But getting clear, the clarity piece, it's like if you can be clear about what you want and convey that to others, that is a game changer. That takes you a long way,
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Yeah. Well, and I would like to think that that job description I wrote, you know, however long ago it was, if it wasn't for my boss, I would like to think that, you know, someone in her position would pass it along to someone that maybe it was a
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Totally.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710a conversation starter. I think that's, uh, time well spent to put onto paper what you want, that clarity that you mentioned. because then, then it's real. Now it's a physical object, and you're gonna go out and find
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Beautiful. Lindsay, so much good advice and tips and stories. Thank you, thank you, thank you. If, folks want to reach out or if they're in the Charlotte area or are looking to move there, where is the best place to reach out to you
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Oh, sure.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710to see
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710me on LinkedIn. I love connecting on LinkedIn. I think that's a great platform. I share a lot of what we're doing on LinkedIn externally as well, so it's a great way to learn what INT is doing, um, across Charlotte, um, to innovate. So please look me up on LinkedIn, Lindsay McCleary.
emily-sander_1_05-20-2026_110710Sounds good. We'll have that information in the show notes. Lindsay, thank you so much.
squadcaster-574c_1_05-20-2026_140710Thank you
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