Real Stories from Leaders on Chiefs of Staff Relationships

This compilation features conversations with four principals about why they brought on a Chief of Staff, how they built trust in the role, and the impact Chiefs of Staff had on their teams. Examples include Lawrence Coburn hiring a former intern for the role, Nikki Barua making the Chief of Staff her very first hire, and Marcus East describing the Chief of Staff as a force multiplier who connects teams. The episode highlights practical challenges and benefits, such as helping with communication, offering a trusted sounding board, and building strong team dynamics.

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If we haven’t met before - Hi👋 I’m Emily, Chief of Staff turned Executive Leadership Coach. After a thrilling ride up the corporate ladder, I’m focusing on what I love - working with people to realize their professional and personal goals. Through my videos here on this channel, books, podcast guest spots, and newsletter, I share new ideas and practical and tactical tools to help you be more productive and build the career and life you want.

Time Stamps:
00:26 Why This Compilation

01:16 Lawrence Coburn

10:07 Nikki Barua

20:50 Marcus East

27:23 Bethany McAleer

Transcript

0:06

Welcome back to Leveraging Leadership, where we unpack the art of business leadership. I'm your host, Emily Sander, chief of staff to an executive leadership coach. This show is all about finding your points of greatest influence and leveraging them to better serve those around you. Hello, hello.

Why This Compilation

0:26

This is a quick note from Emily. So this episode we're gonna change things up a little bit and what you're about to hear are actually a compilation of excerpts from four previous episodes. And one of the really fun things that I get to do as part of this podcast is hear from not only chiefs of staff, but the principals and others who work with the chief of staff. So this is a compilation of four conversations with principals and hearing their different vantage points and perspectives and how they utilize their chief of staff and what they have to say about their experience with their team. So without further ado, here are the four episodes I wanna dig into a few things you said. The board recommended you get a chief of staff, so just curious, do you happen to know where they heard about it or, or why they thought it was a good thing?

Lawrence Coburn

1:16

Yeah, we had a pretty famous and influential board. Because we were growing so fast, we had, like, Bessemer, we had one of Peter Thiel's funds. Oh, nice. We had, uh, who else? KKR at some point. Yeah. And so we had some very experienced folks around the table, and they knew, they knew what to do. Like, you know, stuff's falling between the cracks and you wanna go external, well, you either hire a COO or chief of staff, and COO doesn't seem like the right fit. You need someone who's gonna be consigliere with you, kind of an extension of you while you're in Amsterdam at the, at the Ame- EMEA office or in Hong Kong at the APAC office. And so that, they knew what to do, um, which is what good boards do. They, they have pattern recognition on this stuff. Exactly. Okay, so that came highly recommended. You knew a guy. You brought Matt back, and what was that like when he came back in the company in a different role? Was he, was he right away, you came in as chief of staff, where before he was an intern? Th- there's an important detail here. So Matt had his grad school paid for by, um, his cons- the consulting firm he worked for before. Oh, okay. And so for him to come back to us and not the consulting firm meant that he had to pick up the tab for school, and it was a pretty intense moment- Yeah uh, obviously. And so it was a huge bet, um, a hu- like it was a huge deal for his family. It was a huge bet for him to come back to us. So I had this sort of like, he made this gift coming in, which is like, "I'm all in. I'm as," like, and, like, not just symbolically. He was, like, he was all in on the company's success. Um, and so there's a lot of trust building in that. Um, the other thing he had coming in is that he knew the founding team. Like, we knew his girlfriend. Like, we, like, uh- He was part of the family early teams tend to hang out socially. So, like, he came in like family, and so there's a trust level advantage that he had. And I b- I believe that most chief of staff hires should happen with some connection. I, 'cause I think the trust matters so much in this role, and so he had that in droves. He, a lot of stuff that he had earned, um, along the way. Um, so yeah, he came in, um- And I did not do something which I advise anyone hiring a chief of staff to do, is like to really explicitly define the role coming in. Uh, and just so that everyone is clear about what a chief of staff is and what a chief of staff isn't, 'cause the role can vary so much. We didn't do that, of course. Um- and so we just sort of figured it out as we went along and- Even though you didn't have maybe a clear or a fulsome picture at the very beginning, how did you deploy him in the company? Yeah. Um, so I, I wish I knew now... I wish I knew then what I know now. I wish I had done the work back then before I hired the role. Uh- Um, there's a framework from a crystal group that I really like, which i- it's like a four quadrant framework where you start, like the first thing you have to do as a chief is you, you have to take care of the principal. You have to unlock them for greatness. You have to make them more productive, and if you don't do that, nothing else matters. And if you have command on that, you can start to think about unlocking the C-suite, the leadership team, to function as a team, to execute better, to not drop balls, to be accountable. And if you nail that, you can start to think about unlocking the, the larger org, the company. Like, what are the things that you can do? The strategic planning process, OKRs. Like, can you start to actually bring your chief of staff magic to the, to the full org? And if you can do those three things, you earn the right to be in the foxhole with the principal. You have full access to all the important business context. You- you're, you're essentially an extension of the principal, and, and you've earned the right to be that consigliere. And then I also, it was interesting when you said there has to be some sort of connection between a principal and chief of staff, so a previous connection. I've had so many chiefs of staff come in cold, so to say, where it's very first role of a chief of staff at the company ever. It's their first time meeting their principal in the interview process, and it's how do you build that trust in the first 90 days? And it's an effort, it's work. So you're suggesting, all things being equal, have some sort of connection or trust built up with that person. Are you saying all things being equal, or are you saying it's a must-have, you must have that before you hire- I'm not saying it a must, it's a must-have. I think you can get there, um, kind of organically or through brute force, and um, but I think it helps a lot. I think the way trust works with humans is that, um, you can't fake it. You can't shortcut it. Um, you know, I remember when, um, I hired a CRO, uh, which is a hugely important role as well. I was working with a very seasoned executive recruiter, um, and he, he took me aside and he basically said, "The first 90 days with this gentleman needs to be about building relationships. Like, meet his family, have his family over. Like, you all are gonna be in these intense moments." Um, and I, like now, as a, as sort of a gray hair founder, like, um, you kinda have to do that with all of your key people, like, 'cause like there's- Yes it's such a rocky road, and you gotta have trust that gets you through the rough patches. But because of how intimate the chief of staff relationship is, like you definitely wanna do that stuff there. And you can do it by luck, like I did it with like intern early days, all the ups and downs right there, we're all in the same room. Um, or you can do it by, "Okay, I'm hiring a chief of staff cold." 90 days, yes, we have to get her or him plugged into the business, but- Yeah we have to get her or him plugged into me. Um, and- Mm and you have to be intentional about that. And then how did you get that message out to leadership teams? 'Cause this is a big question I get from chiefs of staff and also executives. I'm clear, like if I'm an executive, I'm clear with my chief of staff what your role is. Yeah. But how do I make sure my leadership team is informed and hopefully bought into that as well? Yeah. I, I think I remember taking time at, um, one of our sort of leadership meetings, like our, our staff meetings, and walking through what the role was, and Matt walking through the job description. We definitely did stuff like that, and, and if we didn't, it was just like, um- Matt was confident enough and ha- and I had his back enough that he could say to a powerful exec, like, um, "I understand why you want me to do that, but, like, that's, um... I'm working on this, this, and this, and, like, this is not part of the thing that I do." And one element I wanna talk about is the sentiment of I have your back. You can go out and you can go to the mattresses with someone, or you can make a decision on my behalf 'cause I need you to move things forward, and if it comes back to me, I have your back. Is there any sort of conversation or sentiment around that, that you would wanna get out to other executives? Hey, if you have a chief of staff and you do empower them and you say, "Go," and then they go, and there's gonna be points of friction, what happens when, when those events occur? Yeah. I, I mean, as a founder or a CEO, you kind of have to have all of your people's backs. Uh, so, uh, yes, there's a special backing for the chief when they're sort of, um, kinda mucking their th- way through a thorny special project that, with not a lot of history and, uh, not a lot of guardrails. Um- Yeah there's a special sort of backing that they need. Uh, I, I think that that comes naturally if the relationship is clearly there and the trust is there. I think it's, it's not an artificial thing for me. If I believe in what they're trying to do and how they're doing it, it's not an easy, it's not a hard thing for me to have their back publicly. I think there's a particularly interesting related dynamic with the chief of staff where, um, when times get really hard, um, as a founder, you feel like you're on an island. And even your closest execs, you have to take with a grain of salt the things they are asking you to do, because everyone is balancing the good of the company with what's good for themselves, and as they should, right? The cool thing about the chief is that because they don't have direct reports, they don't have their own budget really, they don't have, um... Like, they're, I believe them when, when their success is tied to the company's success. Yes. And they-- So it's almost like their power comes from their lack of power. Their influence comes from their lack of structural influence, and it's such a weird dynamic with that role. So Nikki, what had you bring on a chief of staff to Beyond Barriers?

Nikki Barua

10:07

Uh, well, um, at Beyond Barriers, because this was really for Cheryl and me, it was sort of our third venture together, um, I had learned from my past experience, um, how mission-critical the role of a chief of staff really is in order for the executive to be successful. And, um, having seen not just the tremendous value of the role, but also, you know, uh, what happens when you don't have either someone in that role or the wrong person in that role. Um, and I've also experienced that, and that really taught me, uh, the criticality of that. In fact, the very first person I brought on was the chief of staff. You know, before anyone else came on board, it was the chief of staff role, and, um, that's really been the advice I've given to all fellow founders and executives that, you know, your success is really dependent on finding the right, you know, partner, um, the right duo, the right complement. And, um, you know, it's not just about leverage. It's about seeing things from a different lens. It's about, um, bringing a, a complementary set of skills where it's one plus one is 11, and being able to do that, right? So, um, you know, when I was first envisioning Beyond Barriers, before we had even officially registered the company, the first conversation, I actually flew out, um, at that time, uh, we were living in different cities, and I flew out to see Cheryl and, and, uh, you know, spend the weekend trying to convince her to come on board to a nonexistent business with no revenue and, and no c-customers and no team. So, um, it was, uh, it was definitely a, a, you know, a must-have in my eyes. So as new people started coming on the team, and especially executives or investors and things- Yeah like that, how did you both, both of you, introduce the role of chief of staff to others who might not have worked with a chief of staff before or, you know, had never met Cheryl before? How did you go about introducing that role to the team? Yeah, and, uh, you know, it's, um, also, uh, another interesting aspect of the role is the size of the organization, because sometimes it's easier to understand the need or the value of the role if you are a 10,000-person company, right? And, uh, the executive has the chief of staff. Um, if you are, especially when we were starting out as a two-person company, and one is a chief of staff, and it feels like w- almost somewhat frivolous if you don't understand what the role is about. Um, but, uh, you know, the way, you know, I have operated with Cheryl and, you know, we look at all of the challenges and the strategic objectives and priorities that need to be achieved, and really look at how we divide and conquer that- In a way where, you know, her skills and focus and strengths totally complement mine. And so we're actually able to achieve a lot more in a lot less time, and business is all about momentum, and particularly for startups, it's so much about momentum, right? Especially at the early stage. So, um, having the right team around you gives you that leverage. But, um, I feel like in a chief of staff, one of the unique characteristics often, especially for, um, executives that have had the same chief of staff for a long time across different functions, it's also about the relationship, the chemistry, the trust, um, and the connection that it becomes shorthand. You know? Anything that needs to be done, there's a shorthand when you don't even need to complete a sentence. You just know how to anticipate what the other will do, and you just navigate through things so much faster. So bringing that value, admittedly, uh, you know, as new people came on board, uh, some were very familiar with the role, especially in corporate roles, um, maybe didn't understand why we needed that in a tiny team. Uh, in other cases, there were some team members who had no idea what a chief of staff does. And so some of that was explaining that this is a person who's really sort of the connective tissue across all the, you know, management team members, but also, um, moving the ball along across all of the strategic priorities and, uh, providing leverage in, in, um, you know, really mission critical ways. But I think the true test ultimately became of seeing Cheryl in action. I, I think it made very clear why we need this role and the value that she brings. Nikki, how have you seen a benefit when, like, being CEO is a lonely job, right? Being chief of staff is a lonely job in a certain sense, but you do have a trusted advisor and someone who, look, I can go to this person, I can vent if I need to, I can be vulnerable if I need to, I can be very candid, and we can have candid conversations about the direction of the business. How has that played out with Cheryl as your chief of staff? I, I, to me, that's literally the most precious aspect of the role and the relationship, um, that, um, is, um, equal parts trusted advisor, sounding board, uh, coach when necessary. You know, someone who, uh, gives you that unfiltered, you know, feedback that you need to hear that others may not be comfortable saying it the way, you know, Cheryl can. And, um, sometimes, um, therapist and friend You know, so it's all things rolled into one. And, uh, you know, i- in our case, because there's not only history, but so much sort of practical experience across so many different, uh, businesses and business challenges, that we've sort of seen all seasons together, right? And, and so, uh, we also know, I mean, her ability to anticipate how something might affect me positively or negatively, or the hesitation, sometimes the self-doubt, sometimes the, uh, need to realize, wow, this is a huge leap that I've never taken before. Um, and sometimes it's about personal implications, especially as an entrepreneur. There's a lot of, uh, risk, uh, there's a lot of financial liability, you know, um, stresses that you go through that- Are, um, you know, not trivial in any way. And so someone who has context of that and knows how something might, you know, you see a KPI dashboard and you see the numbers are not where they need to be. Well, it's one thing to see it as a, you know, here's the business impact, but that it's another for, you know, your chief of staff to know, oh gosh, this is probably what she's feeling about, you know, her personal impact- Yeah. Mm-hmm on this. So I think there's so much power in having that, that, um, it, it, it's sort of, um, it, it's not just having a, a cheerleader and a supporter, it's really someone who, um, gives you your power identity and, um, helps you feel truly empowered. Um- Yeah and not just supported. One thing I've, uh, observed in, in what is, 'cause having had multiple, um, you know, people in acro- throughout my career, over 25 years in various corporate roles and otherwise, I've had, uh, the opportunity to work with numerous, uh, folks in chief of staff roles. I would say the ones that truly excel, like Cheryl, um, in, you know, in terms of the personality type, um, and you know, I can only speak from my experience, so I don't know if I'm generalizing. I'd be curious about your perspective on this, Emily. But you know, I've found that it's an interesting bundle of contradictions- Yeah that personality. Because on one hand you have to really enjoy variety because variety is just what your day looks like, just like the CEO's job, right? No two days look alike, and same for the chief of staff. No two days look alike. So you have to love variety, but part of what you're also providing is certainty- Mm-hmm and stability. You have to, um, you know, um, get things done and be, uh, uh, you know, have a command and influence to direct, uh, outcomes, but you also must have empathy and build those connections and trusted relationships with people across. So, um, you know, you have to, uh, have a keen sense of, uh, quantitative outcomes. Um, but you also have to be able to read, um, the room and connect the dots. So it's, I, I see so many sort of contradictory skills and capabilities that coexist for someone to truly excel in it. That, um, you know, and, and the only way you can sort of really thrive is if you enjoy it, if you're naturally, you know, sort of enjoy a sense of play and adventure where the opportunity to grow and learn and, um, take on new challenges every day is fun. Nikki, if you were talking to an executive who is like, "Ah, like chief of staff, like I've heard about that. Do I really need one? I don't know if that's a, a necessary thing," what would you say to that executive? Um, love yourself more. You deserve it. You're worth it. Well, you know, I mean, if you wanna excel in your role, uh, and y- you know, your job as an executive is to make high-impact decisions, um, that lead the organization in the right direction and execute, you know, what was committed. And to do that, um, it, it's, you know, really hard to accomplish that without the right partner by our side. And I think of it as a duo, right? A, you know, the right sort of, um, a duo that bring a complementary set of skills, um, but are able to operate at two different altitudes in the same direction. And I think that's, um I, I just can't even imagine anyone, any executive being truly effective if they don't have that, um, leverage, um, and, and that kind of partnership. So Marcus, I know it's been a few years, but can you recall what the team structure looked like at T-Mobile and how you situated everyone, including how you fit in the chief of staff role? Mm,

Marcus East

20:50

absolutely, yes. So the first thing to say is that for me, the chief of staff, um, is really a critical role as part of a leadership team. And so, um, in my mind, whilst I had a number of direct reports who were all VPs or SVPs, so senior execs who ran large teams, the chief of staff was really there to act as a force multiplier, not only to help me do a better job of the things that I was doing, but also to coordinate across that wider team. Um, and in this specific example, where we're talking about Adam, clearly his leadership expertise and, um, you know, bringing that fantastic background being a veteran of the US Marine Corps, he really helped to organize that team and so- It varies. Many people have different approaches to how a chief of staff works, but for me, it is very much that almost like a deputy who is there to act as a force multiplier, help the rest of the team to maximize its impact and output, whilst at the same time having some special responsibilities. And so I had a bunch of functional reports who were doing things like engineering and design and operations. Where the chief of staff role, um, fitted in was really making sure that there was coordination across all of those different teams, and also driving, because we had a very large team with thousands of people, um, communications. And the final thing I'll say, 'cause I could talk about this for hours, is also acting as the eyes and ears on the ground, and helping me as the executive to understand what was happening across quite a large organization. Marcus, it seemed like you used Adam as overarching and seeing across department lines. You had your functional groups, but someone to connect the dots and bring that all together to be your proxy eyes and ears where you, you just couldn't be all of the time. Did you see Adam as, as another member of your executive team? Was that kind of a consigliere advisor role? How did you view him in terms of the team structure? Yeah. I think a consigliere advisor role is a good way to think of it, in that on the one hand, to be effective, I don't think the chief of staff can be absolutely burdened and overwhelmed with the same sort of day-to-day operational responsibilities as other members of that executive team. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But they have to be senior enough that they have credibility and are seen as a peer of those people. Uh, and you know, Adam did that very well, and, um, therefore created, uh, a lot of value, not only for me, but for the whole organization. And what would you say the main benefit of having a chief of staff was? If you were talking to another executive thinking about bringing on this type of role, what would you say? "Here's the main thing I got out of having a chief of staff." Yeah, the main benefit really is that force multiplier. I believe that as an executive, you are able to have more of an impact, to be more connected, and to deliver more value by having a chief of staff that is helping you to execute the vision. And another way of thinking about it is that, uh, as an executive, you typically have to context switch from being very strategic. You maybe spend half of your time in board meetings thinking about the strategy of the company as well as the strategy of your organization, and then half of your time doing the sort of more tactical day-to-day things, operational things. And it can be very hard to bridge those things purely from a time perspective, and the chief of staff allows that to happen. They are always looking for that connection between the strategic and the day-to-day operational. And without a chief of staff, my view is that it's very, very difficult to be a successful executive. Hmm. I think there's saying that I'm transparent and I have an open door policy, and then there's actually doing it, which can be two very different things. So it sounds like Marcus- Definitely hit the mark on both. So Marcus, another word that gets bandied about is trust, and we often hear you have to have trust between a principal and a chief of staff, and I'm in 100% agreement with that. And then the next question is, how? So with Adam, how did you... Maybe it just happened over the course of time, but how did you build that trust where this person has my back, I can be fully transparent with him, I can toss him anything I need to over the fence and it gets done. How did you build that part of it up? That's a great question, um, Emily. I think that at some level it comes down to the human chemistry between two people. Mm-hmm. And so I'll tell you that when I first met Adam, it was entirely on, um, Zoom, on video conferencing, and I found it very hard to really, um, understand what was going through his mind. He's a low reactor, um, when it comes to, to video conferencing, and so in some of those conversations, it was kind of hard to gauge exactly sort of what was happening. And this was during COVID because, you know- Mm-hmm this was early 2021. However, when we then got together in person, there were a couple of things that really stood out to me. Um, one is that Adam demonstrates in everything that he does, integrity Now that is very rare in corporate America, I have to tell you. And so somebody who does what they say they're going to do and will always do the right thing even when nobody's looking is a rare thing. And it's, these are values that I hold dearly. And so I could see those immediately in Adam, not only from how he behaved, but also how other people talked about him, the respect that others had for him. And so that allowed me to have that foundation of trust. But then there was also, I think, the natural process of spending time working together- Right um, tackling some challenges, working on things like the digital dashboard that Adam talked about, the metrics that matter. Seeing that he was someone who would very quickly understand the mission and then organize and mobilize, uh, without a huge amount of oversight to then go away and execute, um, was very, very powerful and led to a lot of trust. And then the other thing I think that led to trust was success. And I always say this when people ask me about, "Hey, how do you build great teams, and, you know, what are the tricks of the trade?" Actually, the best way to build a great team and great relationships is through success. Hmm. Yeah. Because it's through winning that I believe that people develop the strongest bonds and relationships And when you brought her over, was that in, in the acting chief of staff role or did you have the intention of eventually I'm going to get her into this role? How did that work?

Bethany McAleer

27:23

No, I mean, I knew I needed her in that acting chief of staff role. So, um, y- you know, it's, it's sort of a, I think it's an evolution that's continuing to happen. But she came in and focused on relationship building. So, uh, my staff, for example, was n- not used to working with someone in, in that kind of a role, and so do we, do we even need this is part of the question. And, um, you know, it's a thing you don't know that you need until you have it, and then you can't, can't do without. And, and, uh, so she kind of focused on building trust, building relationships, uh, support, partnership with my leadership staff, and, uh, it certainly didn't take long for them to realize how invaluable her, her skill set is to the team. Um, which is very different than, you know, we're in a technical, technical team that does a lot of data and analytics, and Natalie comes from a totally different background, so. And on the communication piece, you have mentioned that Natalie has helped you specifically with your communication, streamline that, and bounce ideas about, hey, how does this sound? Can you talk a- talk about how you and her work together on that? She, she's like my second brain, and like a gut check. You know, like sometimes you always have those emails, you're like, "Is this, is this too much? Did I... Am I..." Uh, so just even getting her second view of, of tone and all of that, it can be helpful to just have that person right there. Um- Mm-hmm but she just from an efficiency perspective too, I mean, there's sometimes there's just too much to juggle in a day. She drafts emails for me. She's learned my, um, style, and, uh, so she can kinda write an email that sounds like me, which is incredible, and it just helps me to cover more territory. Um, and I don't think it's inauthentic, you know, 'cause it's still, still looking at it, tweaking it, and she's kind of learning. But it's just that meshing of being able to work together so well. It's been so helpful. Yeah. And I'm always curious about the interplay between intellectual respect and appreciation for different ways one can add value, especially in fields like science and medicine and academia. So I have a client now who's a chief of staff in higher ed, and in that world, a lot of people are judging you on your, your, the letters behind your name and how many papers you've written, and some people are gonna look down on people who don't have those things. So I'm just wondering if that's come into play with your team. It's a great question. Um, and I have kinda two, two thoughts on it. I'll, I'll share for myself, um I think a lot of my success as a leader has come from the non-technical side of my capabilities. Being an actuary, there's a very, it's very detail-oriented, it's very technical. There's stereotypes around what, you know, who actuaries are, and I never really fit into that. So a lot of my leadership here has been pushing people to see beyond that. Like, you, it, you know, a lot of people are smart, a lot of people are technical. You differentiate yourself on the other stuff. Like, if you can tell a story that resonates with people, if you can explain things in a way where they get it and can engage with it. So that's been a big emphasis of my leadership, and so I think having Natalie step into that, and then people seeing that, like, that's what she brings, and we can learn from her, it just sort of fits. Uh, so I think that's been a big thing. I think, I'll say on the flip side, and I hate to speak for Natalie, but I think there's been some of that on her side is, like, does sh- you know, is she good enough? Does she get the... Does she feel respect for herself in some ways for what she brings to the table when she's the sort of, let's say, odd- odd woman out with her skill set versus this whole team of folks who knows a bunch of stuff she doesn't know or, or does things that she doesn't know how to do. And so that's, like, there's that aspect of it, too, is just seeing and feeling good about the value you bring to the table, even if it might be different from what everybody else has. Yes. And I run into so many chiefs of staff who say, "Emily, I don't have anything to offer. They're all smarter than me. They all are subject matter experts in this area. I have nothing to contribute to this conversation." And I say, "On the contrary, you can help translate that into human terms or into non-technical language that's gonna be understood by other groups." And when you have a leader who appreciates that and recognizes that, I think that can bring a lot to a team, a lot to the success of a team. So thank you for being one of those leaders. Yeah, and actually, like, a, a leader mentor of mine recently said, um, came to speak with my team and said to us in, in such a succinct way, "As you move up in leadership, it becomes so much less about what you know and so much more about who you are." Wow. And I love that because I think we lean so hard into what we know. You know, it can be this armor of, like, sh- demonstrating how valuable we are. Oh, yeah. Um, but I, I, I think that just, like, trying to pivot our attitude around how important that is versus- Mm. You know, I mean, leadership is, is, and, and getting things done as a team, there's just so many other skills that become so critically important that they're, have nothing to do with your subject matter expertise. And I know for, for my principal, one of the benefits that he got from having a chief of staff was basically a trusted dumping ground. So when he needed to vent and just he needed to have Uh, uh, no holds barred, you know, safe space. "I just need to vent. Don't take action. I don't need to be PC." My job was to hold that space, hold that container, and it was almost like, I don't know if you know, I think it was Get Smart, but the Cone of Silence, where you can go in there and you can yell and you can scream, and it, it s- it stays there. That's what I felt like I provided to my principal a lot of the time, and he had expressed that was very valuable to him. So I'm wondering if that comes into play with you and Natalie at any time. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, you need to have that just, like, unfiltered spewing of thoughts and feelings, and then at the end, you know, we come back to Earth and we're like, "Okay, now what are we gonna do about it?" But I think t- yeah, I, I think too is, um, something that I've heard people say but, like, is becoming y- it becomes more and more real is like, as you move up levels of leadership, it gets, it just gets lonelier. And I think particularly, like, a- as a woman leader in a largely, like, male leadership environment, it's, there's not that many people that you feel like you can turn to. Uh, and so I think that relationship, it's, it's so important. That's, I was saying to Natalie the other day, she had a d- a PTO day, and I was like, "Where, who do I, where do I channel this?" Didn't have an outlet. Um, but that, yeah, completely, that's, that's very valuable. Bethany, anything else you wanted to throw in for chiefs of staff, for principals, or even executive colleagues who might be working with the chief of staff? Yeah, I don't, I mean, I, I really en- I had the one experience with, with my, my trusted partner, but I will say that it's such a flexible and, you know, make it what you need it to be experience that I think, like, that's part of what I think excites me about it. It's not this kinda like out of the box, here's what a chief of staff is, is what do you need? What do you need today? You know, what do you need next year? Like, and how to morph that is just, like, having this, a, a partner in crime, so to speak. So, um, I, I do... As, as someone who started from a place of like, what am I gonna do with this person, and this is just another person that I need to, like, find work for, that was where my starting attitude was. I was like, I, I, I don't know where I'd be without having that level of support. So I, I, um, tha- that's, that's my plug for the position and f- and, and investing in or finding someone who has that, um, meshing, right, with your style, your personality, is so valuable Please give this episode some love by liking and sharing. It's like sprinkling digital fairy dust on the algorithms and it is scientifically proven to make unicorn smile.