Episode 1: The Importance of Leadership with Carolyn Swinton

Dr. Carolyn Swinton, DNP, RN, NEA-BC, FACHE, NCC, ACC, knows a lot and feels a lot about the importance of leadership. When our SC WHY Team decided to launch a podcast to spread big ideas and best practices on leading highly resilient teams, she was one of the first people we wanted to talk to. 

Over the course of her career, Dr. Swinton has served in numerous clinical leadership roles, including Chief Nurse Executive, Prisma Health; Affiliate Faculty, University of South Carolina College of Nursing; and Clinical Associate Professor, Clemson University School of Nursing. She is currently the Founder and CEO of Reveille Executive Coaching & Consulting Services, LLC, and she has been partnering with SCHA on our "WHY We Lead" training designed to help hospital leaders in mid-level management positions enhance and cultivate skills and qualities necessary to successfully lead their teams, drive teamwork and engagement, and embrace change.

As we dug into Dr. Swinton's personal story more deeply, our conversation centered around the importance of empathy, self-awareness, and personal growth for effective leadership in healthcare. Dr. Swinton emphasized mentorship, coaching, and personal development for leaders and highlighted the impact of these practices on leadership effectiveness.

Dr. Swinton is a fount of wisdom and left us with some profound thoughts on leadership, including the importance of understanding one's personal values and long-term goals as a leader and the freedom that comes from realizing one doesn't have to be perfect.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

being with someone where the lines become blurred between the two of us, and I really become a part of you. And I have that deep empathy so that when you feel joy I feel joy when you feel pain. I feel pain welcome everyone to tell me why. I'm Jen right. I'm Emily O'Sullivan. And we are the workforce experience team for the South Carolina Hospital Association. Leading the why initiative. Why work harmony you exist to transform the work experience in health care. We're grateful you're all joining us for tell me why our podcast exploring ways to restore harmony to the relationship between work and the people who do it in our hospitals and health systems. Today we talked with Dr. Carolyn Swinton, the founder and chief executive officer of Reveley, executive coaching and consulting services. over 30 years ago, Carolyn started as a bedside nurse, and throughout her career has served in several clinical leadership roles, including Chief Nursing executive, she now owns her own coaching and consulting business, to educate, equip, and empower healthcare leaders to successfully lead their teams, drive teamwork and engagement, navigate conflict and embrace change. Our conversation with Carolyn was insightful and inspiring and we can't wait for you to hear it. So without further ado, here's our chat with Carolyn. All right. Well, we are excited to welcome Carolyn Swinton with us this afternoon. I met Carolyn, what it's been about a year now, Carolyn, since we first got talking with each other. And I have to tell you, Emily, and I have been really excited that you're you were going to be our first guest on tell me why. One of the main reasons is whether we're talking formally and during a meeting informally just catching up. I feel like I always take away a nugget of motivation or inspiration from you. And we're thrilled to be able to share that with all of our listeners. So a big welcome to Carolyn Swinton, Carolyn, everyone seems to have a unique journey to where they are today. And we're really interested in the paths that you've taken the forks you've taken. Were you the little girl that always wanted to be a nurse, or was there an inspiration in your life that made you want to go into healthcare? Tell us a little bit about how you got here. Okay, so I'm not unique. I was a chemistry major. Okay. Yeah. So I wasn't sure what I was going to do with that thing about med school thinking about industry in about two years in one night, you know, after balancing equations and doing other people's homework and charging them bored in college, because I love chemistry so much. I was lucky and I really liked this, but do I want to teach? Do I want to work in industry? The answer was no. And so I just try to down to the Medical University and said, you know, can I volunteer? I'm just kind of interested in learning more about nursing, you know, health care. And so they put me on the worst unit in the hospital. I mean, it was trialed, it was orthopedics, it was neuro. And I loved it. I just absolutely fell in love with it. And so I finished up that second year. And I call my parents told them I wanted to be a nurse in my father said, he said, Okay, we're gonna give you one more year. Gotta be done in five. And that's it. And so I started nursing school. Wow. And just, I just love that the chaos, the vibe of, you know, Medical University, academic medical center trauma. I just loved it. So you feel like you're not unique, but what I got out of that story is curiosity, fearlessness of risk of trying something new resilience for being thrown into the fire immediately. And servant leadership. You started out by volunteering because you wanted to figure out what was going on. So I would I would say that is unique. And I think that's a phenomenal start to to your healthcare career. Well, you know, thank you for saying that. I never thought about it quite that way. But that ended up being the pattern of my career. I just ended up in places that I didn't expect to be in. I was asked to take on roles that I didn't volunteer for in that case, they would come and tapped me on the shoulder and say, hey, you know, we, we'd like you to apply for assistant nurse manager position. And I'm like, I'm the youngest person on the unit. I've only been a nurse for like a year and a half. I don't think I'm the right person. But they kept coming back to me. And I said, Well, maybe they see something that I don't see. And, you know, I'll give it a shot. And I did. And that just kept happening along the way. I moved to Columbia to finish grad school. And so I was ready to, you know, hit the road was getting ready to move to Tennessee, actually, to do some travel nursing, which I never did. They asked me to, if I would be interested in becoming a nurse manager of a cardiac step down unit, I'm a CCU nurse by training. And so they said, hey, you know, this is a good opportunity. And I said, No, I'm not doing. I don't have any experience, you know, as a nurse manager, is a pretty busy unit. And there's a lot going on, it was one of those units that really needed a really strong leader kind of had a little bit of trouble, you know, a lot of turnover. And so I thank them declined, got married, moved to Charlotte, they called me asked me if I will come back. And so I said, Okay, I'll come back, and I'll interview. And I did got the job. And I said, I'd only do it for, I don't know, maybe three or five years wanted to get a joint commission survey under my belt. Why I have no idea today why I wanted to do that. It just doesn't make any sense to me now. Um, so I said, Hey, you know, I'll do this for about three years, ended up staying for eight years. So about five years in, as a nurse manager of the Chief Nurse approached me and she said, Hey, I heard that you might be a good candidate to be the Director of med surg. And I said, I'm not interested. Thank you. And you know, she said, Well, if you change your mind, you know, just let me know. And so about three months later, I was pregnant with my daughter in was thinking about needing to have, you know, maybe have a little bit more flexibility. And so I went back and I interviewed for the position I was hired, in became the director of med surg. And I did that for about five years. And then I was approached, they said, hey, the director for critical care, you know, has resigned? Are you interested in critical care? We know that's your background. And I said, No, I'm not interested. But I'll help you out until you find a replacement. So I covered critical care, and med surg. And it took a year for them to find a replacement. So at that point, I went from being responsible to I don't know, for maybe about 200, team members to 500. And so on the year was up, went back to, you know, just doing med surg. And then the Chief Nurse retired for the campus. And then they approached me again. And they said, Would you be interested in being the Chief Nurse for the hospital? He said, Absolutely. No. He said, I have no experience. And I said, just, you know, go out on the front lawn, look at this big campus. You know, there's 1000s of nurses and departments, and I just haven't had any experience. And they said, Well, you can do it for six months. And I said, Yeah, I'll help you out first. And then in six months, I became, you know, the Chief Nurse, and this was for Palmetto health. Richland. Sure. And so that really was the story of my career. So I started off as a chief nurses, which over each line, then became the chief Ursuline, and Baptists, and then Parkridge, and then to me, and then a few years later, they didn't ask me that. I became the Chief Nurse for for Prisma health. So that's sort of been my journey. I never pursued it. It just sort of pursued me. So I feel like people saw things in you or felt things or were working next to you and had confidence or even over and above what you might have had confidence in at the time and yourself. So you had these these people that gave you opportunities. And you even though you might have had trepidation. You didn't let it stop you from exploring something new. Yes. And I think that's incredible. I think that there are so many folks who feel risk averse or that they let their self doubt get in the way and I love that you didn't do that. You You took the plunge and it was it worked as a success for you and all of those folks who served with you benefited from that. Well, I think I discovered have heard that I like to problem solve. Yeah, I like puzzles, I like to put the pieces together. And so I just, I think I was sort of attracted to chaos and problems and difficulty. And I didn't, I didn't realize it at the time, I think many years had passed, but I just loved it. I love seeing an issue. When I saw like a team member or leader struggling, I always felt like there was a solution. And I discovered, too, that I, I see things that are out of place, or things that are missing. And when I see that, when I notice it, I have to solve, or I have to help that person, solve it, or you know, help be a part of something that's gonna, you know, make things better. Right. So I think that was just sort of that internal impetus. I just sort of run towards problems instead of running away. That's phenomenal. No wonder healthcare was your calling. And I didn't even know it. Right. So Carolyn, now you have your own consulting business. Reveley consulting, where you help equip and develop healthcare leaders. And you're currently working with ncha right now on our program called Why We lead to do just that. Can you talk a little bit about the work that you currently do, and kind of how your background and experience that you just described, kind of led you to that and your kind of your passion for helping develop leaders? Wow, I guess, after about 32 years, leadership, I had probably seen it all, you know, every difficulty, every crisis, mergers, acquisitions, leadership, reorganization, and then natural disasters. I mean, hurricanes, train, wrecks, floods, COVID. Everything that I endured, everything that I led through as a leader, it prepared me for the next thing. And probably about four years before I decided to move into this new chapter, I started getting ready for HUD. And I think when I became the Chief Nurse for Palmetto health had an opportunity for executive coach, and I fell in love with my coach, and her approach, and you know, how she supported me and helped me. And I said, You know what, I think this is going to be my next chapter. And so I just started getting ready for it, I went to coach training, that certified in that continue to, you know, do my internal work in terms of being more self aware, having more difficult conversations, and problem solving at a different level. And so all of those things, just, you know, prepared me, I've always loved people in leader development. And I found that, you know, as a chief nursing officer, my best days, were when I was spending time with my people. And that was at every, every level, from a manager, to a director to a chief of one hospital to a system, I love to round on the units, and just kind of talk to the staff, I was always looking for the next leader, you know, looking for potential. And I'll never forget, I was on a unit and a staff nurse came out of the room, and she was so upset. And I saw what's the problem. And she said, My patients upset with me, have been so busy, and I just couldn't spend as much time with her as I wanted to. So I went in the room to talk to the patient, and just started doing those nursing things that you do kind of straightening things up taking the IV pump, and, and all of that. And what I discovered was that she just needed a little bit of attention. As I went back, talk to the nurse, I said, this is what I want you to do. When you go in the room. I just want you to be with her. And I want you to make sure that your feet are facing her and not the door. Because you know, when you're busy, you have this tendency to just say, hey, is there anything else I can get for you? While you're really kind of have we want him out the door and just kind of spend time with her explain to her that you were really tied up with an urgent issue. But you you're here for her. And she went in, and I just stood in the hallway waiting for her to come out. She came out she gave me a thumbs up. And she says we're good. And she wants me to still be her nurse. And so it was just that sort of thing. Because I wanted to do for people what my coach had done for me, which is to ease suffering, right? And we don't always think about life that way. But when you have a problem, you have some difficulty. You know, you need to do something but you don't know what to do. And to be able to provide that support to someone else became very important to me. And I had many opportunities because I had, you know several 1000 people that I was responsible for, and several 100 leaders And so it just, you know, just became that journey of helping and supporting. And I like to think about think of myself as like a fellow traveler, right. And so although I can't walk your path, I can walk alongside you, and, you know, help you along the way. And so if I have a tool or a skill set that you need at this point in time, or even for the future, then to me, it's a gift to be able to offer that tool in for you to be able to, to be able to support that leader or that individual, to see things differently. Because you know, we have a tendency to see the world the way that we are not the way that the world really is, right? And so we can kind of broaden, you know, our view, and to help people to see things differently. And to help people to look at others differently. If I am, you know, working with someone who's having great difficulty. The first thing that I think about is what have they suffered to be where they are right now, I think about the pain that they may be in the fact that maybe they have been invisible, you know, or that they asked for help, and they were not able to get it. So that's that huge opportunity to help leaders and individuals to look at people differently. And when you can do that, then you can see the unseen. You can be empathetic, you can maybe see that this person that is having a hard time is really reaching out for help. You can see that someone that people have labeled as high maintenance really has great potential, but they haven't been given the opportunity to realize that potential or to cultivate it. And so when you can see the unseen, you can speak the unspoken, right? You can start to have new conversations with from a coaching perspective, the ability to be self aware, to really know who you are, and understand how you feel about yourself, your values that you know, just everyday life and to be able to broaden that perspective to include other people, then you can start to get curious, if someone says something that doesn't land well with you, instead of getting cranked up about it or triggered, you can get curious. I like this quote by Abraham Lincoln. He says, You know, I don't like that fell, I need to get to know him. So now as you sort of work through that process, you're less likely to judge, you know, because we live in judgment, we do it all the time. Well, why is that person wearing those shoes? Have you got that hat on? You know, why did they say such and such? But now, you can practice pausing? In you can be with people. And you can listen? I'm not sure if I'm answering your question. But we are Yeah, and I can say I mean, as someone who's had the huge privilege of going through the why we lead program, you definitely have a gift for that for making people feel seen and valid and, you know, worthy of the position that they're in. And so that gift that you have as evidence. I think what I'm getting from you, too, is is making me remember some of our previous conversations as we were kind of conceptualizing what this why work was going to be and you know, why in the use that we're we're giving it right now is, you know, work harmony, you right, connecting the harmony back to the people and the work that they're doing. But what I'm hearing from you is that H is for human, right, that you're we so often, and sometimes rightfully so put our health care professionals into this hero spot, right and the H is for heroes. But what that could potentially be doing is giving an unfair expectation of superhuman abilities, when truly what we need are the human attributes and the inter interconnections with our colleagues and our patients and our friends and our leaders, and to also be able to have human expectations of ourselves. And so I think what I was hearing, as you were describing, that is an ability to help people be okay with being human and remind them that human connection is is really the root of all of it. So many of our healthcare workers talk about being called into the profession and being and wanting to be the person that helps but then when you're not able to you kind of have this sense of self doubt or I'm not good enough and that's not it. It's just like you said, you know, things, people get busy and you you start to lose The connection of looking at someone in the eye and facing them and then listening and taking those few minutes to really connect with someone. And as you said, it's, it's just as much of a gift for you to remind someone that that's a strength that they have, and that they're allowed to go back in there and do those, those human things. Yes. And I think that's the, what comes up for me, is there's this African is sort of our way of being is called immune to. And it's a practice, where in the bush, if you are walking, you know, towards someone, and they would hear you, they would say, I see you, and the other person would say I am here. And it's a way of really being with people. And to me, I liken it to being with someone where the lines become blurred between the two of us. And I really become a part of you. And I have that deep empathy. So that when you feel joy, I feel joy, when you feel pain, I feel pain. And so as a leader, you know, how can you pass someone and know that they're suffering, or know that they're struggling, and not stopping help. And I think, you know, we lose that in the busyness in healthcare, because what historically happens is, you have Oh, my God, good clinician, I was a good nurse, you know, I'm still a good nurse. And so we tend to promote people for their clinical skill, that doesn't necessarily translate into leadership competency, being a great leader. So you have to really look at that person and see, what are their what are their gifts, what was their potential, where's the opportunity to support them and help them grow. But it has to start with the person. So I can't look at this person and say, Oh, well, they're the nurse manager, they should not do this, or they're the director, I have to see that person, you know, in, have a conversation with them, and understand what's important to them. And if I'm your leader, what's important to you has to be important to me, you know, because we all have our talents, I mean, I'm good at a few things. There's so much more that I'm not good at. And so, you know, for example, as a clinician, I was one of those nurses or student nurses who I got the concept and the philosophy and the theory and all that sort of thing. But when it came to doing the mechanical things, man, I really struggled, you know, my first patient in clinical, he his bed was like laying flat. And he needed to take his medicine. And I need to give give it to him. So I've had the water and I'll stay in a nursing while the water is going to spill over him because he's so scared. You know, and I was standing there, and the nurse manager walked by the door and she said, Carolyn, just raise the head of the bed. So so that common sense sort of thing. I just wasn't there, you know, and I got there, you know, but it took someone noticing that I needed help in that respect. And it's no different with, you know, trying to cultivate leadership and supporting your team. So you have to look at those opportunities. So if I have a leader who avoids conflict, well, we're gonna have some conflict, and we're gonna talk about that we're gonna figure it out, I'm gonna challenge you, you know, because you want to support them that so that they can be successful. So it's really, that process, like you said, a really seeing people, letting them be human, you know, we're all gonna make mistakes, we can't be perfect. Now, the trick to that is learning. So when you make a mistake, you don't beat yourself up and just say, I just can't do this work. You take that mistake. And you say, okay, what can I do differently the next time and overseer over a series of making mistakes missing the mark, but learning from it, recovering, bouncing back, you're getting stronger, you're getting wiser, you're becoming a more capable leader. But it doesn't happen by chance and being allowed to have the grace and space and safety to make those mistakes and be and have to be able to have that attitude that it's not a punitive issue. It's a no I get to learn. I've learned the way not to do it. Now I get to learn a different way. You might work better. Yes. And I'm telling you, it's really a lot of fun. I mean, when you know there's this big thing that comes up some A problem, you're having an issue with another department or you've got this project is getting off track. And then just to kind of walk in there and sit down and start talking about it, and willing to like, okay, we're not going to get crazy about this, we're just gonna sit down and figure out what is the issue, in part of that is really that coaching piece where you talk about self awareness. Because generally what happens when there's a problem, so say, I'm a leader, I'm presented with a problem. And I said, Okay, we're gonna, you know, we gotta get this taken care of by such and such time. And so I come up with this list, and we come up with these tactics, we deploy the tactics, the tactics don't work. And then we sit on me, and we really messed up. And we come back to this list. Okay, so we need to add more things to the list, or we need to take some things off the list. But what what we discover through coaching, the list is not the issue, is the way we think. So when things don't go, well, instead of like, coming back to some list or some issue or some other person, we have to go back to ourselves as leaders. Because we strategize and we problem solve based on the way we see me. And so when we can see things differently more broadly. And when we can get curious and say, What am I not thinking about? What questions am I not asking? It just opens up so much more possibility to be successful and to lead more effectively? Absolutely. So you mentioned a little bit ago that you feel like, you're really good at finding the pieces that might be missing, or the things that could change. So when it comes to the current kind of leadership development landscape, whether it be within a healthcare organization, or leadership development that an organization has access to? What do you feel like are the biggest missing pieces? I feel like you've addressed a couple of them. But if you had to pinpoint a couple of what would be what you feel, are those missing pieces? Well, I think in health care organizations, and probably most organizations, there's not enough leadership development. In some cases, there may not be any leadership development. I think, unfortunately, leadership development, as seen as optional, a lot of organizations, when in fact, it's the most important thing, if you want to see leadership's success, and therefore organizational success, you have to cultivate, you have to develop your leaders, you have to support them, you have to help them to learn and grow. And to really come out on the other side of difficulty, because you will have conflict. It's just sort of there in the in the organization in society. And so there's just not enough attention, and really not enough resources dedicated to leadership development. If you look at a strategic plan for an organization, I think you will rarely see leadership development as a part of their strategic, you know, business plan, their growth plan. I don't think that organizations understand that in the absence of this process, and the support that will be difficult to have sustainable success, right. I think one of the things that I'm so drawn to, by your perspective on leadership development is so much of the concentration on the person as a person, and how if I'm the best person I can be, and I have the tools I need of self awareness of introspection of the ability to connect with other people, that makes me better for other people. And I was someone who came up in, in a healthcare organization, I was an early, you know, early manager, I was very blessed with opportunities when I was young, but I didn't have those things that you've been describing. And the leadership development, I felt like was most accessible to me by the organization was budgeting, and process improvement, all important things, but they kind of goes back to what you described, as you know, you're you're nursing, where it, the technical pieces are one part of it, but the relationships and the the humanity of it is a whole different piece of it, and both need to be developed in parallel. And so, you know, it took me as a young leader realizing that I had a tendency to get defensive. I felt threatened when I knew that maybe I was inadequate or I had feelings of self doubt. But I didn't have a safe, I didn't feel like I was in a safe place to say, I am kind of flying blind here, I'm not really sure what to do, because I didn't want my age or my, you know, my new, my naivety in the position to be like, Oh, she's not ready to be a leader, then you know better because I wanted that I wanted to be a good leader for my people, and for our patients. And I was having this internal struggle of like, I feel like I'm failing them. And so it was, it was being able to do some personal development at that time to be able to be okay with, you know, you don't have to get defensive know what if someone's asking you a question out of curiosity, not because they think you did something wrong, right. So I was seeing it out of the lens of my experience, not the lens of the world as how it was. And so I so much appreciate that. So much of your development is to develop the person into the best human they can be. And then in turn, they're the best leader to the people that they're serving. Yes, well said, thank you. And the reason I say that is because you know, one of the questions that I might I ask the potential client, or even as you know, an individual, that may be seeking some support, or they're thinking they may want to enter a coaching engagement, is what does your heart longed for? You know, this, this really isn't about an organization or a title, or any of those things. I believe that we all have been given gifts. And I believe that when we do not live and work in those gifts, that something's missing, you know, something's out of place. And when you truly understand who you are, who you want to be, what's important to you what you value, and it changes everything. Because I believe, as a leader, to really be a leader to serve yourself well, and to serve those you have responsibility for. People need to know what you're going to stand for, and what you're not going to stand for. You have to be willing to walk away from a position or a title in organization. And I know that sounds drastic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do that. But I will tell you, when you get to the space where you're willing to do it, then you're able to do and say the things that you need to do to take your team, you know, to the next level, so they'll know what's okay and what's not. Okay. As an as a nurse leader, I'll never forget, I was asked the question, what's most important to you, your team are the patients hands down, it's the team. And I told them that, you know, I've got a finite number of people that I'm responsible for, we've got hundreds of 1000s of patients and their families who are coming through the doors, you know, every year, you can, you know, you've got the statistics. But if I can get it, right, if I can take care of my team, if I can lead them, if I get it right for them, they're gonna get it right for those patients. And I don't have to worry about every single patient who walks through the door, that will work, you know, we're going to harm them, we're not going to give them a good experience. So we have to focus on those people, you know, in take care of them. And in so doing, everything else falls into place. But that's not easy. But it is possible, right? And worth it, it is so worth it. And it's so worth it, to see the transformation that takes place for your team, for your leaders if you're a leader of leaders, because what happens in that process is that they discover their gifts, they discover the wonderful person that they are the unique person that they are. And they can lean into their gifts and the possibilities. And they can do it with less fear. They can let go of some of those things that they've been carrying, that maybe most of the time, it's not even true. You know, the self doubt that you mentioned earlier. And they can say, hey, you know, I'm not perfect, and I never will be. But I'm good enough. Good enough. There's freedom and the realization that you don't have to be perfect. There's a lot this whole thing is about freedom. You can chase excellence without chasing perfection. Exactly. Because truth be told, you'll be doing that for the rest of your life. And the rest of your career. We're never going to be perfect. But the pursuit of it. It's a beautiful thing is Yeah. All right. Remember one of the things you said and it might have been The first or second session that I went through, it was just that you are enough and you deserve to be here. And that I mean, I can almost sense in the room, everybody just having a collective sigh of relief, like, Okay, I do deserve to be here. And that in itself was just so freeing. Man, I think it's something that, you know, kind of gave people permission to be themselves and be authentically them and show up in that way. But I know that you've, you know, over your career you've worked with and for a lot of different hospitals and health systems. Are there any that stands out in your mind as doing a great job of leadership development? And if so, what are they doing? Like? What are those best practices that they have institutionalized to make sure that they are empowering and equipping the next generation of leaders, I have worked with a number of health care and non healthcare organizations across the country. And where I've seen the best practices are in the organizations that really have leadership development as a part of their strategic blueprint, I've worked for organizations, that that is sort of a benefit of being in leadership where the leaders have the opportunity, they don't even have to have permission to seek a coach. And some organizations they may give you, like, you know, may have five sessions a here, or you may be coached nine to 12 months a year, you can do a repeat of the engagement, if you feel like, Hey, I'm going through a transition, I need more support, need more coaching, but they this is really important to them. And it's not just words on a paper, I mean, they actually live it, I have had the benefit of working with, you know, executives, who are sponsoring their vice presidents or their associates, and they are so dialed in, to that leaders needs their potential in and they are for them, I mean, they are really so dialed into supporting them and getting them the resources that you need that excuse me that they need, that it's almost like anything is possible for that leader, they are looking into the future, they are not looking only at their current position, but what they see as their potential to continue to be promoted to have more areas of responsibility to just you know, broaden their scope in general. And, and they, they're willing to give him the time and the resources to you know, have that opportunity. So I think that's really, the best practices that I've seen have been in that space is where it's alive and visible. And coaches are welcome, is a matter of fact, as I go on site for some of my, like, qualitative interviews, I end up having coaching sessions with people I'm interviewing with, and you know, and we just have a good time talking, because they'll bring something up. And I'll say, Well, hey, let's talk about that a little bit. And then, you know, we'll get off track, we'll get back on track. But you know, they say, Hey, thanks for the coaching session, that was never my intention. But when you love this work, you know, it shows up. And so that's what I see in other organizations that they really care about leadership development, they care about people development. And they put in the time, the resources and the effort, and they provide the opportunity. And it's a real thing. Yeah, measurable, surreal. That's awesome. So we do so we do a lot of work in our, with our workforce team on, you know, pipeline, right, what the next generation of healthcare workers and from your, the story of your journey, you know, you were a little uncertain of where your chemistry was going to take you and ended up taking you into health care. So if if you had the opportunity to talk to young people who were undecided of whether healthcare was for them or not, what are you know, one or two things that you might tell them that would inspire them to give healthcare a chance? I'll answer that question. In the context of them, maybe not choosing healthcare. I think I would do for young people. What I would do for an adult might be a different conversation, different words, but I would ask them to really start to understand who they are, unapologetically. You know, because this basis of not being enough, not being adequate, not being able to achieve a goal. It starts in our in our youth. And so I would I would start planting the seeds around self awareness, I would ask some questions. So what do you like? What do you like to do? You know, what keeps you excited, you know, what have you, you know, up late at night, when you already know when you should have been in bed like two hours ago. So start talking to them about that. Because when you do what you love, and what you love is often what your gift is. So it's already there. So to start really sort of cultivating that, and having those types of conversations with them. Because when you can start having those conversations, this whole journey always comes back to the individual. So it's about deepening your self awareness. It's about understanding what you value. Because if you value a certain thing, then it's natural to you don't have to hesitate. When someone asks you a question, are you going to do X, if it's something you value you're in, if it's something that you do not value, it goes against your, you know who you are, as a person, you're not gonna have anything to do with it, you're going to be really clear and really firm about that. So becoming more self aware who you are, how you feel, you know, understanding what you value, that's going to be important. And then to get on that journey for the rest of your life, that this is the path. This is what's important to me. Now, if I were talking to someone, a student, of course, I would probably also ask them some questions about, you know, if they're interested in healthcare, what what in healthcare, why, and it's not necessarily clinical, it could be non clinical, because everyone's is a caregiver. Regardless, if you work in the finance office, it dietary EBVs, everyone's taking care of patients is a team effort. And then just to kind of hear what they have to say, because a lot of times, you know, they don't go into health care, you know, you know, the youth, they don't go into health care, because they think they only have a couple of options. But when you can open up the possibility, personal many other opportunities to learn to grow to be, then they say, Hey, you know, that might be the type of organization where I want my gift to come forth. And if that's in education, if it's in quality, if it's in human resources, or wherever it is, it's all part of taking care of patients. So be open and yeah, curious. Yes. open and curious. Well, we're coming up on the end of our time together. But before we wrap up, I just wanted to give you the opportunity. Are there any questions we didn't ask you that you wish we would have? Or do you have any final thoughts you'd like to share with our audience? I guess some final thoughts. Yes, really good questions. When we think about this whole business, of leadership in life, you know, I recently came across a concept is a Native American concept. It's about seven generations. And in this concept, they believe, and I believe that the decisions that we make today, we should give consideration for the positive or negative impact that it will have on seven generations. That's 150 years. And so when we think about the head as leaders, and just people walking on the earth, and we think about the actions that we take, the things that we say the things that we do, if we could be more forward thinking, and look into the future. And just think about the possibility of the impact. So right now, where we are today, we are the beneficiaries of 150 years behind us. And the decisions that were made, the things that were said things that were done. And so as a leader, I've always been strong on legacy. And for me, legacy is not leaving things for people. It's leaving things in people. And so if I can do that, if I can make a positive impact for seven generations to come. I'm pretty yeah, pretty incredible. Well, I don't know about our guests, but I have most certainly taken motivation and inspiration from you once again. So thank you so very much for your time with us today. If folks are interested in finding out how to get in touch with you, some of your resources. Do you want to talk about any of your books or your your coaching? Well, I would direct them to my website curriculum is readily executive coaching and consulting services. And I think anything that you were interested in finding out, you'll find on my website, and I will give a big shout out for that book that was recently published, is called Chasing hope is a nurses reflections on healing and hope. And it was really the culmination of all of my years as a nurse leader. And while I started that process, it was really blogs that you know, put out to the organization. Initially, it was geared towards nursing, but the more that I would write it would, it would be beyond nursing, it would really encompass everyone in the organization. And then it kind of grew a little bit beyond the organization. And it's really what I hope will be inspirational in terms of, once again, just leaning into life. Learning to, to accept who you are, into vision, who you can be, and just to know that you are enough in that everything that you need. You already have it. And so those are very inspirational parting words and, again, for our team here, and on behalf of everyone who's listening, thank you for telling us why Carolyn, thank you for the opportunity to share my why