The Blacktail Coach Podcast
We're here to share tips, strategies, and stories of hunting the Pacific Northwest.
Whether you're a seasoned hunter or just getting started, we'll help you turn preparation into achievement and passion into results.
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The Blacktail Coach Podcast
Eye Guards and Inches: The Math Behind Monster Blacktails
Trophy hunting takes on new meaning when you understand the distinct difference between your personal definition of a trophy and what actually qualifies for record books. This fascinating exploration of blacktail deer hunting breaks down how hunters often misidentify so-called "mature" bucks, revealing the dramatic body size differences between a 3½-year-old and a truly mature 4½-year-old blacktail.
The conversation takes unexpected turns through the science of deer development, where we discover that antler size speaks more to genetics than age. Some mature bucks genetically max out as fork horns while others with identical age develop impressive racks. We share fascinating real-world observations of bucks followed for multiple seasons, including how mineral supplementation transformed spindly antlers into more impressive headgear.
For those measuring success in inches, we provide practical field judging techniques that will forever change how you evaluate potential record book bucks. Learn why height trumps width in scoring systems, how mass measurements contribute significantly to final scores, and what specific characteristics mark a potential Pope and Young or Boone and Crockett qualifier. We break down the specific requirements for various record books, including the lesser-known Northwest Big Game Records that categorizes blacktails into Columbia, Cascade, and Western regions.
The technology revolution in hunting equipment gets critical examination too, particularly how modern muzzleloaders with sophisticated optics have transformed what was once a primitive weapon into something with 500-yard effective ranges. This evolution raises important questions about regulatory responses and hunting opportunity.
Whether you're hunting for the record books or simply for personal satisfaction, this episode delivers practical knowledge to help you recognize and appreciate what makes a blacktail buck truly special. What's your definition of a trophy?
Nilch'i wind checks nilchi.com
Welcome back to the Blacktail Coach Podcast. I'm Aaron and I'm Dave. This week we're gonna talk about actually the title of our episode is One for the Record Book, so we talk about the difference between a trophy and one that makes a record book so a trophy being kind of whatever you determine it to be. Right right, whether it's your first buck, that being a trophy, or bigger buck than you got last year, or a mature buck, or, like Bud's, had a couple of them Right right right, Big fork and horn, and now he wants to find a giant spike black tail.
Speaker 1:But you know, it might be your first four-point or four-point. Right right.
Speaker 2:Or a particular weapon. That's your first archery buck, or there's, there's no, uh, how can I say? There's no standard to achieve it? You, you're simply. It's a goal post that's constantly, constantly moving.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know what I mean, and it's your goal post yeah, yeah, that you, that you move throughout your career.
Speaker 2:what do you want next? What you know? How big, unique, what characteristic? Are you looking for? That kind of stuff?
Speaker 1:But a lot of times in the classes, seminars, things like that, and I'd say on this podcast you've mentioned a record book buck, that you're going to see a record book buck, but that could mean a number of things because there's different factors. But that's being specific. So when you use that phrase, what are you talking about?
Speaker 2:So if I'm talking to a rifle hunter, well, it doesn't matter If I'm talking to a rifle hunter or a busloader or an archery hunter. What I'm referring to when I say a record buck, buck, is that you'll see a buck that will score in the record book apropos to your weapon yeah that you're using, for instance, archery, is pope and young rifle, boone and crockett.
Speaker 1:You know that kind of scenario there now, if you get a big enough buck with archery equipment.
Speaker 2:It will qualify for pope and young or boone and crockett I'm sorry, yes, boone and Crockett, I'm sorry, yes.
Speaker 1:Boone and Crockett. Okay, because and I was looking and a non-typical black tail for Boone and Crockett is 155.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So Chris, just barely missed that, but far exceeds it, of course by Pope and. Young and he got an archery.
Speaker 2:But it's just interesting, different standards and Boone and Cckett they're higher numbers, just because I guess the the thinking is you can be a lot further away, so you have a bigger area that you could cover yeah, you've got a farther reach your your distance of of efficiency yeah you know, is obviously much greater, and and you're using a modern weapon, whereas archery and and muzzleloader are considered primitive weapons, and hence that's also one of the reasons why that that score is lower yeah but most guys never see a buck over 150 no, you know, yeah, I probably a lot.
Speaker 1:Never really see one over 130. I would say, yeah, you're probably right, and it's not for lack of trying, it's just when they get that big, when they get that old, right, well, and I would say a true.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of it's got to do with the fact that guys are passing off young deer that they're calling mature bucks. Yeah, and they're just not. You know that they're calling mature bucks. Yeah. And they're just not you know, they're not mature bucks.
Speaker 2:It's funny because I had this conversation with somebody just yesterday and they were telling me, you know, in seasons past he was saying he was like, well, you know, I'd look at these deer and I think they were mature.
Speaker 2:And he says you know, then I shot this buck last year and it happened to be his biggest buck and I believe it was a five and a half is what I guessed it at. But he goes the body size on this in comparison and he says, and I'm doing your system. He says I put out the cameras and he says I'm looking at all these bucks and he says what I thought was mature before. He says it's so different between three and a half to four and a half. There's such a drastic change in the body, in that skeletal frame, you know, and it's just, it's no comparison, it just stands out that that is a mature buck. And what? What the average guy is calling a mature, a mature buck is not a mature buck, you know, because they're not seeing them on a regular basis. So they they see the three and a half and they think, wow, that's a mature buck yeah you know.
Speaker 2:So it's not. It's not for because they're ignorant, it's just because they're just not. They haven't been exposed to what a, what a mature buck looks like on a regular basis.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean, and a lot of that. I I mean maybe they're taking into account the rack that's on there. So, thinking about Charlie, he was a three-and-a-half-year-old Right. He was 129 gross and 122 net.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:Huge buck, but he was a three-and-a-half-year-old.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I was in on that recovery with Bud and seeing Charlie on the ground, just looking at at him, you could look at the body on him and even, uh, you know the features around the head with the ears and you know the brisket area there and stuff. You could look at that buck until he was really young. You know and and and body size. You were just like, oh my gosh, you know, in comparison to, say, the buck, he shot two years following. You know the body on that one. In comparison to charlie buck, he shot two years following. You know the body on that one. In comparison to Charlie, the body on that one was much bigger than Charlie.
Speaker 1:So the fork and horning shot, or the four point he'd previously shot, the one he got this this last year yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big fork and horn and stuff. But I mean you look at it and it was like it was. There was such a noticeable difference. You know, uh-huh and and uh yeah. So I mean average guys haven't been exposed to, to big, mature black tail bucks, because if they were, I wouldn't have a job. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:So and it's, it's interesting because I had that one buck, that I, the one that I missed. I named him Kenobi, he was about a three and a half year old, but it was a good sized body and, again, very different system when you're looking at him 10 yards away and he was, and it was like, because a lot of times you see, does Right.
Speaker 2:And you're also not getting that, that, that flash yeah you know you're able to sit there and watch that buck for you know, 10, 15 minutes sometimes and you've got countless pictures and all this and you're like, okay, how old is this guy? You're getting pictures from every angle and whatnot, so you really get a good look at at the body and you can tell.
Speaker 2:You know and we talk about it when I do talk about aging deer and whatnot- but the skeletal features that you look for and you start seeing those and you're like, okay, yeah, it's obvious that that's a young buck or that's a mature buck.
Speaker 1:But thinking about that. So Kenobi had. He was a two by three and a little crab claw on one side and a crown three point. But like crab claw, three point, uh-huh, on the other side, same age as as charlie. Just world's difference, and that being, of course, genetics and things like that, but just world's different as far as the rack. But looking at the bodies, I would even say he had a little more mass to him and I think that was. I saw him fairly early. Well, maybe that was mid-november when I was seeing him come in and and everything. But again, yeah, it's just when they're in front of you, 10 yards right, hanging out, it's you really start noticing like the size difference between them and and does and whatnot. But I also had a mature fork and horn on that set who was the brick, who was? That's what I named it, because he just his body.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 2:And he just but a big fork at horn and and and see, that's the thing, guys, you know that's another thing Antlers don't tell you about the age, antlers tell you about the genetics of that deer. The skeletal frame tells you about the age. And so when you say you know Brick, big forked horn and everything, guys are going to think, well, he's two, two and a half, maybe three and a half years old. And the reality is is that some deer just genetically do not have it in them to go any bigger than a big two or a big three yeah you know, and and that's, that's the reality of it, you know, and then it's like, for instance, lucky.
Speaker 2:I watched lucky for four years and I think it's a great example of an area.
Speaker 2:Even though we get a lot of rainfall over here, that area was mineral deficient because he was always really spindly, he was always really wide he was a big three point and I watched him again for four years, him and another big buck running together, and the other one was just a big forked horn. But he wasn't a revert, you know, he was just a big forked horn and they were both spindly and we started doing minerals and everything. And boy he, just once we started doing the minerals, he put on the mass really good. He actually went to a four by three and eye guards and everything. And then the other forked horn really beefed up as well. But they've always been that wide from the time that I first found it. So there was four years that they were that wide watching them. But the antlers, his body was always big. So a lot of guys are like, well, you know, looking at the antlers and it's like he's just a big three point. Well, it was just genetics you know, and then it was okay.
Speaker 2:So now it's mineral deficiency in that area. They're not getting enough rainfall, they're not getting enough rainfall, they're not getting enough minerals. You know, something is wrong in there, that they're just not getting to their maximum potential. And then we started supplementing that with minerals.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or the type of feed that they're getting. Maybe the predominant feed doesn't have as much of a certain kind of minerals Right right. Maybe a couple of different minerals, whereas if you go a couple miles away, there's more of that particular type of feed that has that type of mineral.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, there's a lot of stuff like that A lot of variables that go into making a good buck, yeah.
Speaker 1:Which is why you know, when we were able to do minerals it would be. It could be hit and miss, just and really close together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one area just get pounded and the other area you not see a single deer all summer, although it was really interesting.
Speaker 1:So I I was experimenting with three different minerals cracked out blacktail solutions, blacktail drop zone this year, and I and I used also big and j to die for as an attractant and and years past I would put that out and I might have one doe come in or a bear would come in and sniff it, but that was about it.
Speaker 1:There was really no action. And then this year, of course, and we went out in February to do this. So before the ban happened is when I put out these minerals. But I went out and I pulled all my cameras just recently and the minerals all gone, scraped down to bare dirt, all three of them. And I've even used Blacktail Drop Zone in the past. It was new with the Cracked Out and the Blacktail Solution. That was a new. Both those were new products, but it was bare dirt everywhere and Like every scrap of it gone and just eating down into the dirt. And it was really weird because I was trying to think of and we had a La Nina winter, so cooler and wet, but I was trying to figure out what was it about this winter that they hit those minerals that hard? Or maybe I just I put them out a month or a month and a half earlier than I normally did. I can't quite remember when I did last year.
Speaker 2:Did you put minerals out last year in that area? Mm-hmm. In that area. Oh really yeah.
Speaker 1:So the only new place for putting out minerals was my halfway set, uh-huh, because I found that later in the season and by the time I found it, there was no point in putting out minerals. Right right.
Speaker 1:But the other two same spots, same minerals, but just different reaction this year and all of them just got hit hard. So it was just really interesting and maybe that was the key is. I think I might have gone out late March last year. Right and it that's just enough. Where things are starting to grow by late March, where there's enough other food that they're going to ignore that, whereas in mid February it's just game on.
Speaker 1:Right on With all that Anyway, just little side note. Getting into talking about that, I can't. I was going to experiment with that all through season and then the band came, and well, so much for that idea.
Speaker 2:Well, our Oregon guys can still use them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh yeah and try them out. But as far as I can tell, like the Blacktail Solution, all those were really good products. Blacktail Solution was probably the most completely down to like a trench.
Speaker 2:Just hammered, huh, yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:And I was able to go out and put out the rest of it a few days before the ban took effect, because we've got a dozen or 15 bags of this stuff sitting in the garage. So I went and used up the rest of the black tail solution and put it back out there, just to use it up, and I haven't gone and looked at it yet. Unfortunately, I didn't see what came in on that particular set because my camera died, the battery died after I put it out. But oh, that was another point One, two does in the last. Oh, that was another point One two does in the last. This is the third year I've done minerals on that set, so one, two does max. Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:I had 15, like one or two pictures. It might have been the same doe, one or two pictures. They sure had 15 different days. That deer came in to that particular set, nice, and that was with the black tail drop zone and big and J, which, to die for, and a lot of times that hasn't been a real strong attractant for them and it molds pretty quickly out in the rain, right right, all gone, and you can see exactly where I poured it out, because it's just well, you put the black tail drop zone down on bear dirt anyway, but you can tell it's all gone and the others all down dirt dug into the dirt, nice so, and very few bears. I did have a couple of bears on sets but I mean, yeah, that's fine, that's's just a yearly. But anyway, getting back into and I just brought that up because that was a like with Lucky that the minerals were really important for managing the herd, Right deer health.
Speaker 1:Helping the deer health and trophies, you know making trophies or making record books. So you have some animals, more than just black tail, and you having Pope and Young, because you're primarily with everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I archery just everything, yeah.
Speaker 1:What all do you have that's in Pope and Young.
Speaker 2:I have a cougar. I have pronghorn several deer.
Speaker 1:Did any of your bear make it?
Speaker 2:no, not yet. I am, however, leaving on a bear hunt in manitoba oh, there you go hope to get a good one but in all honesty, with the bear I'm more of a meat hunter than I am anything else yeah, that's true you know, I I don't really there's so many out there you just, we got to do something. You know, I'm not going to be picky there's so many out there.
Speaker 2:You just we got to do something. You know I'm not going to be picky, yeah, but yeah, a lot of deer pronghorn cougar, you did shotgun for turkey. Yeah, I did shotgun for turkey. But yeah, I got some. It's got some long beards that are over 11 inches and okay, you know some good, good birds and whatnot. I got 15 bulls but none of them are. None of them are record book status yet. But then, Mule, deer.
Speaker 1:But those of you were more meat hunting, you weren't quite as focused on the trophy aspect.
Speaker 2:As far as trophy, really the Black.
Speaker 1:Tails or record book?
Speaker 2:I'd say not trophy, yeah, record book. As far as record book goes, black Tails is really the only one that really gets me going. Everything else, if it's legal, you know it's good enough for me. Yeah, and on some trophy elk hunts and called in some bulls for some guys, but that's about it.
Speaker 1:So I pulled up. When we're talking about record books, so there's Pope and Young, for archery Rifle is doing Boone and Crockett. Oh, this was something else I was going to ask you. So, having gone to Buck Ventures this year and joining as pro staff for Buck Ventures in the woods myself, so we were sitting down one evening having dinner and the CVA guys came and sat with us. Yes, and we got to hear a lot about muzzleloaders and rifles and what they had going. Yeah, some really great stuff, but really neat guys. And it's the. If you ever watch any CVA YouTube videos, that's the guy we were sitting down with, tony Smotherland Tony Smotherland, I keep forgetting his name and then another guy who worked there, but it was interesting and I asked what is the?
Speaker 2:effective range of a muzzleloader. Now Just about fell out of your seat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they said well, if conditions are perfect, we can hit 1,000 yards. I'm like what? So you know, I'm thinking effective range as far as because there's a certain point where rifles they won't kill. You're far less likely to kill something you know, I think like a Remington 703-08 is like 7,800 yards or something like that, or it might be further, but there's an effective range.
Speaker 2:Right, so you need to preface all of this with.
Speaker 1:as far as the 1,000, that the guy that went to there is a competition shooter. Yeah yeah, that is above and beyond the average guy. But he said that if conditions are perfect he would take a thousand yard shot on an animal, Right and he goes. But typically he'd take any 500 yard shot he could get. And this is also where muzzle loaders, you can have a scope on them and things like that.
Speaker 1:Right, right, but do you think so? As I was looking through these record books and it's mostly the only one that makes a like. An exception is the Northwest Big Game record books. Okay, and they have a muzzle loader category which is very similar. You know it's a black powder, but the numbers on those, as far as what constitutes a record book, is very similar, or maybe even lower than it is for archery.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you think with the inline systems and how modern these, do you think that they're going to adjust those?
Speaker 2:start adjusting. There's a reason why they don't let black. I mean when it first came out, when black powder first started catching on, before the inline barrels and all of this stuff. You know, primitive weapon was right, you know, and there are still some states where it's like, no, you have to use the flintlock style, all that.
Speaker 1:Open to the air Northwest compliant.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's still limiting you very much. But, like you said, there are states where you know you can put a scope on it.
Speaker 2:You know you can shoot that close to the weather, all that stuff, and it's just like, well, no, that's a rifle, that thing. When you're shooting 500 yards without even skipping a beat, not even thinking twice about it, that's a rifle. And so what made it primitive was the limitations that it had before as far as, because the average guy is probably not going to stretch himself much more than 100 yards. Yeah, I'm talking with a scope, are they? You gotta have a one power now one power, I think they're.
Speaker 1:They allow red dots or there's something like that, but it's a one power. Scope is what you can use in washington now, and I'm not sure about oregon in my mind that's just basically readers yeah, okay, so you got readers on there.
Speaker 2:Okay, but innovation is a great thing. When I was a kid, I remember when the fastest bow on the market was 200 feet per second and it was. Everybody was talking about it and it was just like, oh my gosh, and then they cracked that barrier. Then after that it was the 235 barrier and then it went up to the 280 barrier, you know. And now they, you know, they got bows that are 370.
Speaker 2:And it's like well, the innovations there's a point where innovations start hurting you, because it no longer can be considered a primitive weapon. Yeah. You know it just isn't. And if you're going to do that, then what they're going to end up doing is shortening the seasons. That's how they solve that problem, which is what they've done with how they solve that problem, which is what they've done with muzzle, which is what they've done with muzzle loader. They've shortened the season and then they've taken away units and stuff.
Speaker 1:It's like eight or nine days and a lot of units don't have the late muzzle loader anymore because your efficiency becomes too great.
Speaker 2:You know your harvest rate goes up and and I mean this is, this, is this is a breeder stock that we're pulling out of every year and you have to maintain that balance. You know well, it's out of balance right now because we have more predators that aren't being managed than we do. You know, ungulates that are being managed. I mean there's a lot of things like anything else that go into it, and and if you start putting in it's already out of balance and you start throwing in all this, this new technology and whatnot, then it's really gonna tip and and and then we're going to be on the downhill side of something that we don't want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, now I know we have all separate seasons for everything. Are there states that where it's just deer season whatever weapon you're using, or do they pretty much all separate out archery and muzzle loader and they separate them out.
Speaker 2:But you know, like in in a lot of states you buy a deer tag and and you can hunt any far as the weapon yeah, you just have to hunt with that weapon yeah you know, and much like washington, you can always go down, but you can't upgrade yeah so if it's archery season, you have to hunt with archery equipment. You can't hunt with muzzleloader or rifle. But if it's rifle season you can hunt with archery equipment if you so choose okay.
Speaker 1:So looking at the record books and these were the three that I was mainly and really I didn't realize up until the show that there was so Northwest Big Game record books. I didn't realize that there was Northwest records. I thought that it was just Pope and Young and Boone and Crockett, that it was just Pope and Young and Boone and Crockett Because Curry made record and that's what I couldn't quite figure out at the time, because Pope and Young is 95, but the state record is 90.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the minimum is 90.
Speaker 1:For Columbia Blacktail that was also a difference. Actually, it's true for all of them. Columbia, they break down Blacktail a lot more.
Speaker 2:The Northwest record book does yes.
Speaker 1:So Pope and Young and Boone and Crockett, it's Sitka Blacktail. But they break it down to Columbia, cascade and Western. So I know the difference between Columbia and Western is just I-5, right. Yes yeah, yeah, and Cascade just a certain level up in the Cascades.
Speaker 2:No, cascade would be I-5, I believe it is Columbian is west of I-5. And I believe Western is at the Columbian is west of I-5. And I'm assuming the Cascade obviously is going to be east. It used to be that. You know it changes so much You've got to really be on top of this stuff. I know that for a long time, like Boone not Boone and Crocker, but Pope and Young considered anything east of I-5 was considered a mule deer and anything west of I-5 was blacktail. You know, and they've since changed that, they've moved that boundary and whatnot.
Speaker 1:Oh here, why didn't I just pull it up on the whip while you were talking? Okay, so Cascade, it's looking like, oh, that's kind of interesting. So it looks like there's an area east Whatcom County, east Skagit, so the east part of a lot of these counties, but it would be higher elevation which might be the Pacific Crest Trail. It's kind of looking like it's following the Pacific Crest Trail, maybe it's a little bit further over it at a certain point, but this looks like it encapsulates what I consider bench leg bucks, this particular area. Westerns, huh, but this also doesn't have this one in particular. It's showing Western is everything kind of west of I-5. Maybe Columbia, that's interesting. Yeah, western or coast. Deer and columbia are just along the columbia river, so interesting. Anyway, they have all this information on the websites which is really interesting. Just if you're curious about this type of information.
Speaker 2:Right, it's just jumping on these.
Speaker 1:So, northwestbiggamecom, you can Google Boone and Crockett and Pope and Young and see what the minimums are. But it's like 135 for Boone and Crockett, yep, if you hit 125, you make the three-year record book. So they'll record it for three years.
Speaker 2:And then they drop it.
Speaker 1:To permanently make Boone and Crockett you have to have a 135.
Speaker 2:Right, right, 135. Which I think is the 135 is the minimum for whitetail on Pope and Young. I believe it's either 130 or 135.
Speaker 1:Oh, I thought it was 140. But anyway, well, I could look that up 145. Pope and Young is for mule deer White tail deer typical is 160 at Boone and Crockett.
Speaker 2:Right, I'm talking Pope and Young.
Speaker 1:Oh, pope and Young, yes, it's definitely smaller, with Pope and Young White tail is 125.
Speaker 2:Non-typical is 145.
Speaker 1:That's a lot lower than I thought, yeah, but yeah, all of them are all 90 for any type of blacktail, right For archery, it's 90. It's 95 for muzzleloader and then it's anywhere from 110 to 125. Makes Northwest Washington State record book for all of those? But they do, they break it down for archery, rifle, muzzleloader and then they'll also score sheds. So if you go out and find a shed you can make a record book for a shed. So one of the also I noticed Boone and Crockett is field judging. They have really good information about field judging. So when you're out there, if that is your goal to have something that makes it into the record book, they break that down really well. How do you go about your field judging when you're to decide and you might not necessarily be doing it for black tail and you talked about that.
Speaker 1:It's just something that caught your eye.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:But if you were to go and field judge, like if you were looking, how would you? What would help you decipher how big a deer is?
Speaker 2:oh, okay, yeah, there's some. There's some characteristics on blacktail that you can look at what's going to score better, or or you know how wide is that or whatever. So, generally speaking, when a black tail buck, when his rack is as wide as his ears, you know where the ears are inside the rack. That buck is somewhere around 18 and a quarter to 18 and three quarters inches inside spread. That's just a given, that's just a general given. That's how big that buck is.
Speaker 2:Another thing is you know good fronts will make up for weak backs. Your front splits can really help make up for back splits that aren't very strong. And then a good rule is if you're wondering, like guys look at Lucky and they go, wow, that buck's 140, 140s. But if you really know what you're looking at, you look at that buck and you go, okay, he might be 120,. You know at the most, simply because everybody thinks width is going to score better than height and it doesn't. Height always scores better than width. So if you've got a buck that's really tall, he's going to score better than a wider one.
Speaker 1:Typically speaking, because it's two scores.
Speaker 2:And width is only one.
Speaker 1:Right yeah, because you're going to go on that main beam twice. Yeah, they're really wide, they're only wide ones, you're only getting one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that was something, and we'll get back into more about that, but I was looking at where they measure. So it's width, they measure the circumference, the diameter. So if it has eye guards, they'll do one below the eye guard, one above the eye guard. If it has no eye guards, they just do two in the exact same spot and then, when the antlers split, they'll do one measurement off of those branches, right. So there's a total of eight of those that factor in.
Speaker 2:And so if you've got a buck with, like, when we go up to and we do the-.
Speaker 2:Up in Puyallup, yeah, up in Puyallup, you know, and we get a lot of Kitsap County bucks coming in and stuff and they're just, they're so heavy, they're just just absolute tanks up there. Those bucks will always score really good because they have such really good mass. Because you're adding up all of that and it doesn't seem like it's a lot, like a lot of bucks say that are just from down in our neck of the woods, let's just say and they're not as heavy, not even close to being as heavy. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know and you realize, man, you're just giving up a lot when you don't have that mass and the kids app.
Speaker 1:They carry that mass all the way up and that's just huge. So one of the on one of the websites I saw that it good mass on a black tail is four inch circumference, so around the racks. Yeah. So four times eight is 32 inches.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Now if he's three, which is still pretty good mass, you're losing eight inches right there. You know that's knocking it down to 24.
Speaker 2:And I would say that's probably what we're at. We're probably, I'd say, the average buck around this area and this, being Southwest Washington, I would say is somewhere around that three-inch mark. Yeah. You know, but it's funny, and I mean those kits that got to be pushing four and a half five.
Speaker 1:I mean they're just massive bucks We've seen some that are yeah huge, especially down around the eye guard area.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just baseball bat handles, you know yeah.
Speaker 1:And if you had like a five-inch circumference? Oh my goodness yeah, all those little things.
Speaker 1:But, they said that it's highly unlikely that you're going to have and this is one of the Boone and Crockett If you want to really kind of figure things out, their field judging page has a lot of really good information for figuring out what you're looking at. I would say. So what is being scored? What's really important, like three by three. It's rare for a three by three without eye guards. In fact I think at one point they said that there's not a three by three. It was sitka, it had to be a four by four. And when they say four by four, that can be a three by three with eye guards. But they said that if it's a three by three, no eye guards generally doesn't make record book. There are certain things that you want to be looking for. Does it have eye guards? Does it?
Speaker 1:have this, does it have that and be able? That helps you with determining, you know, along with, I guess, your weapon and stuff, so anything else that you consider when field judging.
Speaker 2:It's hard for me to say you know, because of the way that I hunt. You know it's just do. I got record book. Yeah, I got record book bucks, but is it something? I'm just going out there to find what catches my eye. And I would say this if you want to be, if you're someone that says I don't know how to score, I don't know how to judge them, or anything like that, the best thing you can do is take the bucks that you've killed and start measuring them yourself. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. Pope and Young has a great website. Boone and Crockett has a great website. You go right on there and they'll tell you exactly how to measure. They got pictures and diagrams to show you exactly what to do. And when you start seeing what a 110 to 120 inch looks like, you know, and the difference between those two and whatnot, you start seeing what these bucks really measure. You're able to score relatively close out in the field just because you know what it takes. And that's all it really is is knowing what it takes, knowing where the measurements are going to. That's what is going to help you become a good scorer on the hoof.
Speaker 1:Okay, so hopefully we've steered you in the right direction for figuring out, when you're out there, what is your record book. But primarily I'd just say, go after your trophy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Have fun. The trophy is that's you, that is your hunt and at the end of the day, it's what you've done and you've got what? What you're happy with that's it. Yeah, that's it, right there okay, so till next week go kill a big one, go kill a big one, yeah.
